February 19, 2025 • 24 mins
In this emotional interview with Nancy Glass, Tracyraquel shares how the Burden of Guilt docuseries affected her life. You can watch the entire Burden of Guilt docuseries right now, exclusively on Paramount+.
Reach out to the Burden of Guilt Team at burdenofguiltpod@gmail.com.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, It's Nancy Glass. I hope you've been able to
watch Burden of Guilt, the docu series on Paramount Plus.
That's where you can see the actual footage from the trial.
You can meet the investigators, and of course you'll see
Tracy Riquel Burns, the hero, the warrior in this story.
And now that it's on the air, I wanted to
(00:22):
talk with her again. Tracy Riquel, this is our first
conversation since the documentary premiered on Paramount Plus. So what's
life been like for you since the TV series launched?
Speaker 2 (00:38):
That is a tough one. A life has been well, overwhelming,
It's been overwhelming. I didn't expect to feel so exposed.
(01:00):
I think prior to all of this, if if you
had googled my name, nothing would have ever come up.
You would have never seen a picture. And that's very
much how I how I liked my life to be.
I felt very safe and comfortable. And it's absolutely not
(01:21):
that that way now. And I knew that was going
to be that way, and I and I you know,
I understood the risk for that. And there are purposes
for doing this, I guess, is what I'm trying to say.
But yes, it's been it's been overwhelming to me, and
you know, I've had sleepless nights and all of that
is just trauma from my childhood, and you know, feeling
(01:44):
vulnerable and afraid, I wanted to, you know, crawl into
the corner of my closet and not come out, to
be honest, but it's irrational and you have to talk
yourself through it, and I have.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Well, here's the thing, Tracy Ruquel. I don't think there's
there's anything wrong with that. I think that's a natural reaction.
But I do wonder do you regret having made the
documentary and the podcast.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
No, I mean.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
No, I do not regret doing it. I have moments
where you know, you wish you could have your cake
and eat it too. But if that makes some sort
of sense.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Yeah, you wish you could tell your story and then
disappear into the ether.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Yeah, I could have my total safe feeling and be
totally anonymous. And it doesn't work that way, and I
get that. So no, I have no regrets. But yeah,
it's what stepping into the fire is all about.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
So let me ask you about jan Berry Salmon, the murderer,
the man who killed your baby brother and the man
who is your father.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Well, we don't know that for sure.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
We don't know for sure. You're absolutely right.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Yeah, I don't know who is my biological father, and.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
You're hoping it's not Jan Barry Sanmlin.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Yes, at this point, that's just not even something I
think about.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
But you saw him on the documentary. How did he
look to you?
Speaker 2 (03:11):
He looks like an elderly man that's been in prison
for a very very long time.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
You know. He looks like he's been through a lot,
and he looks rough.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
How many years has it been since you've seen Jan's face?
Speaker 2 (03:25):
I have seen Jan's face twice a month every year
since the trials. Why because I go on Florida Department
of Corrections twice a month to make sure he's still
in prison. And I heard Leanne Mangon on the docuseries,
and she was one of the prosecutors say that he
(03:47):
is one of the only people that she's ever put
in prison that she goes on Google to check and
see that he's still in prison. And it shocked me
when I heard it, and I was like, yes, that's
what I do. I go and make sure he is
still sitting where he is and so, yes, it wasn't
shocking to me to see his face because I see
it all the time and they update that picture every Sunday.
(04:10):
So if he were to ever break out of prison
or they let him out of prison, I know exactly
what he looks like and I know exactly where he is.
And maybe some people would say that's unhealthy, or maybe
it's healthy, it's beneficial to me.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Yeah, you're doing.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
What you need to protect yourself apparently. So yes, have
you heard from Kathy, your mother since this came out?
Speaker 2 (04:35):
No?
Speaker 1 (04:35):
And you haven't heard from Sheila, her sister.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
No.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Okay, I want to shift to Ted Golder. He was
married to your mother and you thought he might have
been your father. He was definitely your baby brother, Matthew's
biological father, and you talked about him at length in
the podcast. Well, as you know, we received an email
from his sister. Can I read part of that email
(05:03):
to you and talk with you about your feelings?
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Okay?
Speaker 2 (05:08):
All right?
Speaker 1 (05:09):
So she says, I'm the sister of Ted Golder. My
brother passed away in two thousand and six of als
and since he has no voice to speak his side
of the story, I'll speak for him. My mother told
him to stay away from Kathy. That's your mother. She
was not the girl for him. But my brother had
(05:30):
no intention of listening to my mother, and so it began.
He was in love with her. She could do no
wrong in his eyes. She was a majorrete in high school,
very popular. He was proud of her. He was aware
of her relationship with Jan Sanlin, but blind to the
fact of how deeply she was involved with him and
(05:50):
would never break that tie. And as she stated at
the trial, Kathy said, I loved Jan since I was
twelve years old and that never wavered. So now, in
nineteen sixty eight, Ted gets drafted and he had to
go to Vietnam and during his tour of duty, that's
when Kathy, who was his wife at the time, wrote
(06:13):
him a Dear John letter. Dear John, is goodbye, It's over.
She still has that letter. His sister still has that letter.
So he wrote to his mother and told her about
the letter, and he said he threw his wedding ring
into the Sigone River. He said, mother, you're right. And
Kathy said to him in the letter that her baby
(06:37):
was Jan Sandlan's baby, and he was getting divorced from her.
And then you fast forward to the summer of nineteen seventy.
Ted returns home and he's back with Kathy. Tracy's just
a baby. My mother and father accepted it and even
had Kathy, Ted and Tracy up on the lake in
their boat. So everything seemed to be going fine. Ted
(06:59):
and Kathy got apartment, and Kathy was pregnant, and I
would visit them in their apartment. I even suggested to
Cathy to name the baby Matthew, and everything seemed to
be fine. Then Ted called his sister to say he
came home from work and Cathy had moved out. She
was maybe seven months pregnant. No reason, just left. Ted
(07:21):
had to regroup. He quit his job in Alabama, he
moved back to Atlanta. He was never able to see
his son, Matthew born, or even know where Kathy had gone.
He had no way of finding her yet. Then he
came back to Atlanta, was notified that the baby was dead,
and the first time he saw his son was at
(07:44):
a funeral home. And then the night he came home
from the funeral, he put his fists through our parents' door.
He was so distraught. And then years later my brother
told me about a paternity test, and how he was
to be, you know, talking to you, Tracy, and he
(08:04):
was excited. This is now. He was excited to maybe
be having grandchildren. He told me they could come over,
jump all over his furniture, he wouldn't care. But the
test came back and you weren't his daughter, and he
was very, very disappointed. Even though everybody knew all along
the truth, he was still hoping for a miracle. The
(08:27):
letter also says that she and her sister were at
the trial every day in the back row, and after
the trial, they're interviewing Kathy, your mother outside the courthouse.
She was never charged with anything, but Ted's sister came
up to Kathy and told her she was just as
guilty as Jan and she needed to be in jail. So,
(08:49):
if I were to sum up that letter, here's the
gist of it. So Ted and Kathy get married. Ted
goes off to Vietnam. He gets a letter from Kathy,
A dear John letter said saying, I don't love you.
The baby isn't yours. I want a divorce. He's broken hearted.
He gets home, but then everything seems to be fine again.
(09:11):
They're living together, they're happy. He comes home one day
and Kathy's moved out. He doesn't know what's happened, he
doesn't know where she's gone. He moves to Atlanta to
go and find her, and the only thing he knows
about this baby is that the baby has died. So,
Tercy Riquel, what do you think of that letter?
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Most of what she said in the letter is the
same information that Ted had said to me when I
was speaking to him in the early to mid nineties.
There was a period of time that I had communicated
with Ted Golder. We had gotten in touch. He wanted
to do a paternity test, and we talked for about
(09:59):
six weeks, and during that six weeks he had told
me pretty much what she states in this letter.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
You spoke to Ted Golder's sister on the phone. What
did she say to you?
Speaker 2 (10:12):
You know, she told me about her brother and you
know him in high school, and how handsome and sweet
he was, and you know how much she loved him,
and that he, you know, would have been a good father,
and the relationship with Kathy, and you know the things
that they saw that went wrong with Kathy, and obviously
(10:33):
Kathy's draw to Jam.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Well, Kathy cheated on Ted golder with Jam and even
when she was married to Ted, she cheated on him
with Jam. Yes, I can't even imagine the emotions of
talking to this woman who at one point was your aunt.
What else did she tell you?
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Okay, so a couple of things that she told me
in the conversation that we had was one she said,
you know, I saw your mother, Kathy and the newspaper once.
And I thought she was referencing the trials that she
saw Kathy maybe in the newspaper during the trials, And
I said really, and she said, yeah, she had two
(11:14):
broken legs and a broken arm, so she was almost
in a body cast. And it occurred to me like
I remembered two broken arms, two broken legs, right, And
I was like, oh, yeah, that was a suicide attempt.
And she said, oh, I didn't know that because in
the paper they didn't say that.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Yes, that's a story that you told both on the
podcast and in the documentary of Kathy putting you in
a seat on the balcony and then jumping off in
front of you and not dying, but breaking both arms
and both legs.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
She sat me on, just sat me on the porch
and then jumped off, and my memory was that she
broke both arms and both legs, but it was both
legs and an arm, and I thought that was really
ironic that there's this picture out there in nineteen seventy
two of her in this cast you know of this
(12:11):
event that you know this directly relinked to this memory
that I have. Another thing that she told me was
my younger brother, Jason, was actually in kindergarten or the
first grade, I can't remember which with one of her boys,
and she said, Jason came to school one day and said,
(12:35):
my father is in prison and he killed my little brother,
and when he gets out, I'm going to kill him. Now,
the relevance of this is is that that would have
made Jason about seven, so I would have been around twelve.
Now that's when Kathy started, like openly she had been
(12:58):
around eleven or twelve, openly telling me Jan did it?
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Jane killed him? Jan is that whatever? You know? It
was just this confirmation to me.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
I guess I would have thought, then, why didn't Kathy
go to the authorities or even pam Ted Goulder's sister
who you spoke to. Did she consider going to the authorities,
because after all, it was her nephew.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
I think that everybody thought that there was something wrong
with a whole lot of things in that county and
surrounding counties. Not to be cryptic, but I think that
there was a whole lot of homicides and crimes that
were suspicious. And I think a lot of people thought
(13:44):
there were a lot of things that were wrong and mishandled.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
And that is in connection with jan Sandlin. Even in
Pam's letters, she says, I think he killed his first wife,
Nancy Tegetter. That was the case where it was determined
to be a suicide, except that how did Nancy Tagatter
wrap herself up in sheets after she shot herself? And
why would a pregnant woman commit suicide by shooting herself
(14:12):
in the stomach. It made no sense whatsoever. And also
William David Corn, that's another case that Jane has been
associated with. William David Korn was a police officer, and
the latest thing that we found in our research was
that it's possible that William David Korn was having an
affair with Nancy Tagatter and that's why they both ended
(14:35):
up dead.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
Well.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
I recently was told that Nancy was dating a police officer,
but the name was never said, so I don't know
who who the police officer was, but that she was
dating a police officer, but that person had no idea
who the police officer was.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
So well, the police always had their suspicions about Jan's
involvement in these two deaths. Did you ever hear stories
about that while you were growing up?
Speaker 2 (15:04):
So as a child, over and over again, I had
heard that Jan killed Nancy. He came to her afterwards
that he killed a police officer, and they drove to
Alabama and threw the gun in a lake. And that's
what drove me to, you know, to Cab County for
(15:25):
the first time, to pull that incident report. No, actually
to pull a police report. And all there was was
an incident report. Now I was very young and didn't understand,
but I understood enough to say, this is all there is.
Like it didn't make any sense to me. So when I,
you know, first got Jim maybe on the phone and
(15:47):
talked to him. He was my angel, he was my savior.
He's the very first person who said I will get
this done. He said, send me a letter, and then
I sent him a letter outlining all of that didn't
know who the police officer was at that time, but
that exact phrase that she said over and over, that's
what I sent him. And the thing was, he knew
(16:09):
all of that, and he knew Jan Sandlin, and he
says that's why he took that case and it.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
Was so helpful.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Right.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
He suspected Jan Sandlin from day one. Tracy Raquel, We've
received quite a few questions about this story, and one
in particular involves you changing your name from Tracy to
Tracy Riquel. Do you want to address that.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Yes, So let's just back up a little bit. And
this is very complicated, but we'll back up. When I
started school first grade, my name is Tracy Sandlin, and
I went through school as Tracy Sandlin because that's who
Cathy was with even when she wasn't with him. Now,
at twelve or thirteen years old, I needed a birth
(17:00):
certificate for something and social Security card and she hesitated,
like you wouldn't believe, beat around the bush for weeks
till it finally was unavoidable. And the reason was because
on my birth certificate she was married to Ted Golder
(17:21):
when I was born, and on my birth certificate my
name was Golder. So I've got eight years of school
records that are not legal. Had to go to a
judge and the judge asked me, what name do you want?
So I went to the name that was on my
birth certificate, Golder, not to mention it was match same
(17:46):
and that makes sense, and I didn't want anything to
do with jam changed everything. So now legally my name
is Tracy Raquel Golder. Now we fast forward to I'm
in my twenties speaking to Ted Golder and he wants
to do this paternity test.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
He called on the.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Phone and he said, well the results came back, then
you're not my daughter. And he said, you're a very
nice woman. You're lovely. I wish you all the best,
but I can't have anything to do with you, and
(18:32):
I would like it if you no longer use my name.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
So I didn't when it was necessary. Raquel became my
last name.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
And then when I got married, my first name became
Tracy Rikel. And it was very important to me that
my first name be Tracey Raquel because it's all I have.
And so that's why it is so important to me.
(19:12):
That's my name and it's all I have. Now it
wasn't so upset to setting to me that I wasn't
his daughter. It hurt my feelings that he said I
don't want anything to do with you, you know, But
what was really upsetting to me was that this and
(19:32):
I understand, you know that it's a piece of symbolism,
What was really upsetting to me was that it, you know,
he sort of verbally took this connection that I had
to Matthew a way. And you know what, when I
spoke with his sister, I told her because I said,
you know, i'm gonna explain this on the podcast because
(19:52):
a lot of people have asked why you know the name?
And I said, you know, I don't want to hurt
your feeling, but and I'm sorry, I'm going to tell
she said. After I told her, she said, you know what,
it sounds like something he would have done. And I said,
I don't know if he just had a knee jerk
reaction or if he was just mad or whatever. And
she said, you know, I'm.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Sorry, it sounds like a very nice person.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Yeah, And I you know, and I never spoke to
him again, but I am the kind of person that
if you asked me not to do something I'm not
going to ever do.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
It tracea raquel. It took me a couple of years
to get you to agree to tell your story. You
didn't want the attention, but you did have a motive
for finally participating in the docu series. You want to
share that with.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
Us, so I wrote some notes down.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Of course, by all means, I know this isn't easy,
So tell us what made you decide you needed to
do this.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Matthew is a part of me, and it's important that
I show my love for him. I believe that his
remains laid in his little casket waiting for me, and
I thank him.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
So much for that.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
I did this also because I wanted to bring awareness
to the spectrum of child abuse that happens in homes,
both seen and unseen. But there's something else. I don't
believe the full extent of justice has been served. I've
always felt an obligation deeply to the family of the
(21:27):
other victims of Jan, in part because of the information
that was told to me over and over as a child. Also,
other families have experienced profound loss because of Jan. I
don't want to be cryptic, but if you follow this
story closely, it will become clear that the same system
(21:49):
in nineteen seventy through seventy two that classified Matthew's death
as an accident has failed to properly address other acts
of violence that deserve attention. My hope is that people
will start having conversations about this, and I truly believe
that they have and I've seen that they are.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Well, that was beautifully said before we wrap up. I
know there's something else you want to clear up.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
You know what y'all might think this is silly. In
the docu series, I did say I didn't do anything wrong,
and that's not true. I did violate seaquestration, even if
it was walking by and pausing for thirty seconds and
seeing her. I violated seaquestration and I knew that at
the time, you know, I mean I might not have
(22:40):
stopped and watched the program and recorded it and did
all this stuff. But I want to say, yes, I
know I did that. Can we say that in the podcast?
Can I say I did I violated seaquestration? Do you
think it matters or do you think anyone cares?
Speaker 3 (22:55):
Or well?
Speaker 1 (22:55):
I think if you care, then that's what matters. I mean,
that's always been our attitude towards the story. If it
means something to you, it means something to us.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
And then what you don't know is that there were
two more trials, right and every time I got on
the stand, the judge turned to the jury and told
them basically that I was dishonest because I had violated sequestration.
And what everybody fails to realize is that then I
(23:26):
had to leave the court room with this massive amount
of press and the news everywhere going that girl who
brought the case it failed it and brought it like
you know, and it was all over the news about
how I, you know what, I failed it, how I
blew it up, and you know, I mean it was
mass humiliation, like it was just horrifying, you know, And
(23:47):
then what do you have to do? You have to
I'm begging them to bring the case back, and then
you got to swallow your pride two months later just
go back in there and do it again.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
So I'm just going to say what I've said to
you one hundred times, thank you, thank you, thank you
for sharing your story and for beeting you.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
I mean, you know, I have clearly have made a
lot of mistakes along the way, embarrassing as it is,
but yeah, well
Speaker 1 (24:09):
We could argue about that forever, and you can stream
the entire three part Burden of Guilt docuseries right now
on Paramount Plus
Hi, It's Nancy Glass. I hope you've been able to
watch Burden of Guilt, the docu series on Paramount Plus.
That's where you can see the actual footage from the trial.
You can meet the investigators, and of course you'll see
Tracy Riquel Burns, the hero, the warrior in this story.
And now that it's on the air, I wanted to
(00:22):
talk with her again. Tracy Riquel, this is our first
conversation since the documentary premiered on Paramount Plus. So what's
life been like for you since the TV series launched?
Speaker 2 (00:38):
That is a tough one. A life has been well, overwhelming,
It's been overwhelming. I didn't expect to feel so exposed.
(01:00):
I think prior to all of this, if if you
had googled my name, nothing would have ever come up.
You would have never seen a picture. And that's very
much how I how I liked my life to be.
I felt very safe and comfortable. And it's absolutely not
(01:21):
that that way now. And I knew that was going
to be that way, and I and I you know,
I understood the risk for that. And there are purposes
for doing this, I guess, is what I'm trying to say.
But yes, it's been it's been overwhelming to me, and
you know, I've had sleepless nights and all of that
is just trauma from my childhood, and you know, feeling
(01:44):
vulnerable and afraid, I wanted to, you know, crawl into
the corner of my closet and not come out, to
be honest, but it's irrational and you have to talk
yourself through it, and I have.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Well, here's the thing, Tracy Ruquel. I don't think there's
there's anything wrong with that. I think that's a natural reaction.
But I do wonder do you regret having made the
documentary and the podcast.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
No, I mean.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
No, I do not regret doing it. I have moments
where you know, you wish you could have your cake
and eat it too. But if that makes some sort
of sense.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Yeah, you wish you could tell your story and then
disappear into the ether.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Yeah, I could have my total safe feeling and be
totally anonymous. And it doesn't work that way, and I
get that. So no, I have no regrets. But yeah,
it's what stepping into the fire is all about.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
So let me ask you about jan Berry Salmon, the murderer,
the man who killed your baby brother and the man
who is your father.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Well, we don't know that for sure.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
We don't know for sure. You're absolutely right.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Yeah, I don't know who is my biological father, and.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
You're hoping it's not Jan Barry Sanmlin.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Yes, at this point, that's just not even something I
think about.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
But you saw him on the documentary. How did he
look to you?
Speaker 2 (03:11):
He looks like an elderly man that's been in prison
for a very very long time.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
You know. He looks like he's been through a lot,
and he looks rough.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
How many years has it been since you've seen Jan's face?
Speaker 2 (03:25):
I have seen Jan's face twice a month every year
since the trials. Why because I go on Florida Department
of Corrections twice a month to make sure he's still
in prison. And I heard Leanne Mangon on the docuseries,
and she was one of the prosecutors say that he
(03:47):
is one of the only people that she's ever put
in prison that she goes on Google to check and
see that he's still in prison. And it shocked me
when I heard it, and I was like, yes, that's
what I do. I go and make sure he is
still sitting where he is and so, yes, it wasn't
shocking to me to see his face because I see
it all the time and they update that picture every Sunday.
(04:10):
So if he were to ever break out of prison
or they let him out of prison, I know exactly
what he looks like and I know exactly where he is.
And maybe some people would say that's unhealthy, or maybe
it's healthy, it's beneficial to me.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Yeah, you're doing.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
What you need to protect yourself apparently. So yes, have
you heard from Kathy, your mother since this came out?
Speaker 2 (04:35):
No?
Speaker 1 (04:35):
And you haven't heard from Sheila, her sister.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
No.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Okay, I want to shift to Ted Golder. He was
married to your mother and you thought he might have
been your father. He was definitely your baby brother, Matthew's
biological father, and you talked about him at length in
the podcast. Well, as you know, we received an email
from his sister. Can I read part of that email
(05:03):
to you and talk with you about your feelings?
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Okay?
Speaker 2 (05:08):
All right?
Speaker 1 (05:09):
So she says, I'm the sister of Ted Golder. My
brother passed away in two thousand and six of als
and since he has no voice to speak his side
of the story, I'll speak for him. My mother told
him to stay away from Kathy. That's your mother. She
was not the girl for him. But my brother had
(05:30):
no intention of listening to my mother, and so it began.
He was in love with her. She could do no
wrong in his eyes. She was a majorrete in high school,
very popular. He was proud of her. He was aware
of her relationship with Jan Sanlin, but blind to the
fact of how deeply she was involved with him and
(05:50):
would never break that tie. And as she stated at
the trial, Kathy said, I loved Jan since I was
twelve years old and that never wavered. So now, in
nineteen sixty eight, Ted gets drafted and he had to
go to Vietnam and during his tour of duty, that's
when Kathy, who was his wife at the time, wrote
(06:13):
him a Dear John letter. Dear John, is goodbye, It's over.
She still has that letter. His sister still has that letter.
So he wrote to his mother and told her about
the letter, and he said he threw his wedding ring
into the Sigone River. He said, mother, you're right. And
Kathy said to him in the letter that her baby
(06:37):
was Jan Sandlan's baby, and he was getting divorced from her.
And then you fast forward to the summer of nineteen seventy.
Ted returns home and he's back with Kathy. Tracy's just
a baby. My mother and father accepted it and even
had Kathy, Ted and Tracy up on the lake in
their boat. So everything seemed to be going fine. Ted
(06:59):
and Kathy got apartment, and Kathy was pregnant, and I
would visit them in their apartment. I even suggested to
Cathy to name the baby Matthew, and everything seemed to
be fine. Then Ted called his sister to say he
came home from work and Cathy had moved out. She
was maybe seven months pregnant. No reason, just left. Ted
(07:21):
had to regroup. He quit his job in Alabama, he
moved back to Atlanta. He was never able to see
his son, Matthew born, or even know where Kathy had gone.
He had no way of finding her yet. Then he
came back to Atlanta, was notified that the baby was dead,
and the first time he saw his son was at
(07:44):
a funeral home. And then the night he came home
from the funeral, he put his fists through our parents' door.
He was so distraught. And then years later my brother
told me about a paternity test, and how he was
to be, you know, talking to you, Tracy, and he
(08:04):
was excited. This is now. He was excited to maybe
be having grandchildren. He told me they could come over,
jump all over his furniture, he wouldn't care. But the
test came back and you weren't his daughter, and he
was very, very disappointed. Even though everybody knew all along
the truth, he was still hoping for a miracle. The
(08:27):
letter also says that she and her sister were at
the trial every day in the back row, and after
the trial, they're interviewing Kathy, your mother outside the courthouse.
She was never charged with anything, but Ted's sister came
up to Kathy and told her she was just as
guilty as Jan and she needed to be in jail. So,
(08:49):
if I were to sum up that letter, here's the
gist of it. So Ted and Kathy get married. Ted
goes off to Vietnam. He gets a letter from Kathy,
A dear John letter said saying, I don't love you.
The baby isn't yours. I want a divorce. He's broken hearted.
He gets home, but then everything seems to be fine again.
(09:11):
They're living together, they're happy. He comes home one day
and Kathy's moved out. He doesn't know what's happened, he
doesn't know where she's gone. He moves to Atlanta to
go and find her, and the only thing he knows
about this baby is that the baby has died. So,
Tercy Riquel, what do you think of that letter?
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Most of what she said in the letter is the
same information that Ted had said to me when I
was speaking to him in the early to mid nineties.
There was a period of time that I had communicated
with Ted Golder. We had gotten in touch. He wanted
to do a paternity test, and we talked for about
(09:59):
six weeks, and during that six weeks he had told
me pretty much what she states in this letter.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
You spoke to Ted Golder's sister on the phone. What
did she say to you?
Speaker 2 (10:12):
You know, she told me about her brother and you
know him in high school, and how handsome and sweet
he was, and you know how much she loved him,
and that he, you know, would have been a good father,
and the relationship with Kathy, and you know the things
that they saw that went wrong with Kathy, and obviously
(10:33):
Kathy's draw to Jam.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Well, Kathy cheated on Ted golder with Jam and even
when she was married to Ted, she cheated on him
with Jam. Yes, I can't even imagine the emotions of
talking to this woman who at one point was your aunt.
What else did she tell you?
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Okay, so a couple of things that she told me
in the conversation that we had was one she said,
you know, I saw your mother, Kathy and the newspaper once.
And I thought she was referencing the trials that she
saw Kathy maybe in the newspaper during the trials, And
I said really, and she said, yeah, she had two
(11:14):
broken legs and a broken arm, so she was almost
in a body cast. And it occurred to me like
I remembered two broken arms, two broken legs, right, And
I was like, oh, yeah, that was a suicide attempt.
And she said, oh, I didn't know that because in
the paper they didn't say that.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Yes, that's a story that you told both on the
podcast and in the documentary of Kathy putting you in
a seat on the balcony and then jumping off in
front of you and not dying, but breaking both arms
and both legs.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
She sat me on, just sat me on the porch
and then jumped off, and my memory was that she
broke both arms and both legs, but it was both
legs and an arm, and I thought that was really
ironic that there's this picture out there in nineteen seventy
two of her in this cast you know of this
(12:11):
event that you know this directly relinked to this memory
that I have. Another thing that she told me was
my younger brother, Jason, was actually in kindergarten or the
first grade, I can't remember which with one of her boys,
and she said, Jason came to school one day and said,
(12:35):
my father is in prison and he killed my little brother,
and when he gets out, I'm going to kill him. Now,
the relevance of this is is that that would have
made Jason about seven, so I would have been around twelve.
Now that's when Kathy started, like openly she had been
(12:58):
around eleven or twelve, openly telling me Jan did it?
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Jane killed him? Jan is that whatever? You know? It
was just this confirmation to me.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
I guess I would have thought, then, why didn't Kathy
go to the authorities or even pam Ted Goulder's sister
who you spoke to. Did she consider going to the authorities,
because after all, it was her nephew.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
I think that everybody thought that there was something wrong
with a whole lot of things in that county and
surrounding counties. Not to be cryptic, but I think that
there was a whole lot of homicides and crimes that
were suspicious. And I think a lot of people thought
(13:44):
there were a lot of things that were wrong and mishandled.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
And that is in connection with jan Sandlin. Even in
Pam's letters, she says, I think he killed his first wife,
Nancy Tegetter. That was the case where it was determined
to be a suicide, except that how did Nancy Tagatter
wrap herself up in sheets after she shot herself? And
why would a pregnant woman commit suicide by shooting herself
(14:12):
in the stomach. It made no sense whatsoever. And also
William David Corn, that's another case that Jane has been
associated with. William David Korn was a police officer, and
the latest thing that we found in our research was
that it's possible that William David Korn was having an
affair with Nancy Tagatter and that's why they both ended
(14:35):
up dead.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
Well.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
I recently was told that Nancy was dating a police officer,
but the name was never said, so I don't know
who who the police officer was, but that she was
dating a police officer, but that person had no idea
who the police officer was.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
So well, the police always had their suspicions about Jan's
involvement in these two deaths. Did you ever hear stories
about that while you were growing up?
Speaker 2 (15:04):
So as a child, over and over again, I had
heard that Jan killed Nancy. He came to her afterwards
that he killed a police officer, and they drove to
Alabama and threw the gun in a lake. And that's
what drove me to, you know, to Cab County for
(15:25):
the first time, to pull that incident report. No, actually
to pull a police report. And all there was was
an incident report. Now I was very young and didn't understand,
but I understood enough to say, this is all there is.
Like it didn't make any sense to me. So when I,
you know, first got Jim maybe on the phone and
(15:47):
talked to him. He was my angel, he was my savior.
He's the very first person who said I will get
this done. He said, send me a letter, and then
I sent him a letter outlining all of that didn't
know who the police officer was at that time, but
that exact phrase that she said over and over, that's
what I sent him. And the thing was, he knew
(16:09):
all of that, and he knew Jan Sandlin, and he
says that's why he took that case and it.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
Was so helpful.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Right.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
He suspected Jan Sandlin from day one. Tracy Raquel, We've
received quite a few questions about this story, and one
in particular involves you changing your name from Tracy to
Tracy Riquel. Do you want to address that.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Yes, So let's just back up a little bit. And
this is very complicated, but we'll back up. When I
started school first grade, my name is Tracy Sandlin, and
I went through school as Tracy Sandlin because that's who
Cathy was with even when she wasn't with him. Now,
at twelve or thirteen years old, I needed a birth
(17:00):
certificate for something and social Security card and she hesitated,
like you wouldn't believe, beat around the bush for weeks
till it finally was unavoidable. And the reason was because
on my birth certificate she was married to Ted Golder
(17:21):
when I was born, and on my birth certificate my
name was Golder. So I've got eight years of school
records that are not legal. Had to go to a
judge and the judge asked me, what name do you want?
So I went to the name that was on my
birth certificate, Golder, not to mention it was match same
(17:46):
and that makes sense, and I didn't want anything to
do with jam changed everything. So now legally my name
is Tracy Raquel Golder. Now we fast forward to I'm
in my twenties speaking to Ted Golder and he wants
to do this paternity test.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
He called on the.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Phone and he said, well the results came back, then
you're not my daughter. And he said, you're a very
nice woman. You're lovely. I wish you all the best,
but I can't have anything to do with you, and
(18:32):
I would like it if you no longer use my name.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
So I didn't when it was necessary. Raquel became my
last name.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
And then when I got married, my first name became
Tracy Rikel. And it was very important to me that
my first name be Tracey Raquel because it's all I have.
And so that's why it is so important to me.
(19:12):
That's my name and it's all I have. Now it
wasn't so upset to setting to me that I wasn't
his daughter. It hurt my feelings that he said I
don't want anything to do with you, you know, But
what was really upsetting to me was that this and
(19:32):
I understand, you know that it's a piece of symbolism,
What was really upsetting to me was that it, you know,
he sort of verbally took this connection that I had
to Matthew a way. And you know what, when I
spoke with his sister, I told her because I said,
you know, i'm gonna explain this on the podcast because
(19:52):
a lot of people have asked why you know the name?
And I said, you know, I don't want to hurt
your feeling, but and I'm sorry, I'm going to tell
she said. After I told her, she said, you know what,
it sounds like something he would have done. And I said,
I don't know if he just had a knee jerk
reaction or if he was just mad or whatever. And
she said, you know, I'm.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Sorry, it sounds like a very nice person.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Yeah, And I you know, and I never spoke to
him again, but I am the kind of person that
if you asked me not to do something I'm not
going to ever do.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
It tracea raquel. It took me a couple of years
to get you to agree to tell your story. You
didn't want the attention, but you did have a motive
for finally participating in the docu series. You want to
share that with.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
Us, so I wrote some notes down.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Of course, by all means, I know this isn't easy,
So tell us what made you decide you needed to
do this.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Matthew is a part of me, and it's important that
I show my love for him. I believe that his
remains laid in his little casket waiting for me, and
I thank him.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
So much for that.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
I did this also because I wanted to bring awareness
to the spectrum of child abuse that happens in homes,
both seen and unseen. But there's something else. I don't
believe the full extent of justice has been served. I've
always felt an obligation deeply to the family of the
(21:27):
other victims of Jan, in part because of the information
that was told to me over and over as a child. Also,
other families have experienced profound loss because of Jan. I
don't want to be cryptic, but if you follow this
story closely, it will become clear that the same system
(21:49):
in nineteen seventy through seventy two that classified Matthew's death
as an accident has failed to properly address other acts
of violence that deserve attention. My hope is that people
will start having conversations about this, and I truly believe
that they have and I've seen that they are.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Well, that was beautifully said before we wrap up. I
know there's something else you want to clear up.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
You know what y'all might think this is silly. In
the docu series, I did say I didn't do anything wrong,
and that's not true. I did violate seaquestration, even if
it was walking by and pausing for thirty seconds and
seeing her. I violated seaquestration and I knew that at
the time, you know, I mean I might not have
(22:40):
stopped and watched the program and recorded it and did
all this stuff. But I want to say, yes, I
know I did that. Can we say that in the podcast?
Can I say I did I violated seaquestration? Do you
think it matters or do you think anyone cares?
Speaker 3 (22:55):
Or well?
Speaker 1 (22:55):
I think if you care, then that's what matters. I mean,
that's always been our attitude towards the story. If it
means something to you, it means something to us.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
And then what you don't know is that there were
two more trials, right and every time I got on
the stand, the judge turned to the jury and told
them basically that I was dishonest because I had violated sequestration.
And what everybody fails to realize is that then I
(23:26):
had to leave the court room with this massive amount
of press and the news everywhere going that girl who
brought the case it failed it and brought it like
you know, and it was all over the news about
how I, you know what, I failed it, how I
blew it up, and you know, I mean it was
mass humiliation, like it was just horrifying, you know, And
(23:47):
then what do you have to do? You have to
I'm begging them to bring the case back, and then
you got to swallow your pride two months later just
go back in there and do it again.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
So I'm just going to say what I've said to
you one hundred times, thank you, thank you, thank you
for sharing your story and for beeting you.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
I mean, you know, I have clearly have made a
lot of mistakes along the way, embarrassing as it is,
but yeah, well
Speaker 1 (24:09):
We could argue about that forever, and you can stream
the entire three part Burden of Guilt docuseries right now
on Paramount Plus
Host
Nancy Glass
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com