December 6, 2023 • 26 mins
Burden of Guilt has been turned into a docuseries, now streaming only on Paramount+. Available to watch HERE!
And make sure to binge all episodes of the podcast that inspired the show before you watch!
In the season finale of Burden of Guilt, Nancy and Tracyraquel discuss what this podcast journey has been like for her and clear up some unanswered questions with new details revealed in the series. We also sit down with the people closest to Tracyraquel and hear how her strength, bravery, and compassion have impacted them for the better.
If you would like to reach out to the Burden of Guilt Team, email us at burdenofguiltpod@gmail.com
If you or someone you know is a victim of domestic abuse, please reach out and call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233.
To report a case of child abuse, please contact your local police department or call the Childhelp National Child Abuse Hotline at 1.800.422.4453.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, all, we have some exciting news to share. Paramount
Plus has turned Burden of Guilt into a docuseries. You
will get to meet the people involved, You'll hear from
the people who have never spoken before, and you get
to see where the story took place. We are so
proud and excited to share it with you. You can
(00:20):
stream it right now on Paramount Plus. Jan Berry Sandlin
left his third trial convicted of the murder of Matthew Golder,
and in two thousand and one, the Supreme Court of
Georgia held up the verdict on appeal. He remains in
(00:45):
a Florida prison and the consequences of his bad acts
continued to reverberate. He will die in prison. I'm Nancy
Glass and this is Burden of Guilt, Episode eight, The
(01:06):
Last Word. Tracy Riquel's story started in nineteen seventy one
and it isn't over yet. In the last episode, we
learn more about the unfinished business that still weighs on her.
Did Jan Barry Sandlin commit other murders and get away
(01:26):
with them. I've reached out to Jan for an interview
and he said yes, but the prison won't let us in.
If that changes, we will update you. This series has
been several years in the making, so we want to
tie up some loose ends. Okay, Tracy Riquel, let's start here.
You didn't go to Matthew's exhumation, and you were the
(01:50):
reason it was happening, right, you wanted to explain why
you didn't go. Matthew's exhumation was a pivotal point in
the investigation and in Jan's conviction. The Medical Examiner's office
exhumed Matthew's body with very little expectation of finding any
remains to study after so many years. So just to
(02:13):
set this up, here's what the district attorney and medical
examiner told us.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
When we got there.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
It was a clear day, a little cool, and when
I got to the grave site, the dirt had already
been moved. I'd remember feeling a bit more somber. It
seemed to me that we were disturbing a sleeping baby,
(02:39):
and that really bothered me.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Assistant District Attorney Leanne Manguon attended the exhumation. She tried
to support Kathy as she watched everything unfold. Tracy Raquel
was not there.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
I remember her being quite emotional, crying, and I kind
of took my cues from her.
Speaker 5 (02:58):
She wanted to stand back, and that happened. I didn't
go to the exhumation because there was already so much
media attention, and I knew that Kathy was going with
the district attorneys and we were barely on speaking terms
if that, and I just felt like it would be disrespectful,
(03:20):
you know, to go and what stand on the other
side of the cemetery, away from her, right.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
You didn't want to call more attention or attention in
the wrong way to what was going on.
Speaker 5 (03:33):
Correct, Yes, the titchen needed to be about Matthew's death,
his homicide, and how are we going to take care
of that? That needed to be the priority.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Let's talk about the mistrial for a sec You were
told you couldn't watch the trial or read about it,
but you did catch a glimpse of your mother on
TV and you told the prosecution about that because it
was the right thing to do. Let's listen to what
the judge said about that.
Speaker 6 (04:04):
There has been an egregious violation of the witness of
frustration rule, which in the context of this case, is irreputable.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
You felt you were demonized for this.
Speaker 5 (04:14):
It's just how it was to trade. You know, everything
from the mistrial happening, what media press. I mean, I
think that was bigger story than the fact that this
case got reopened. Was like, Oh, the girl who you
know has spent all her life trying to get this
case reopen, just ruined it because she can't follow rules.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
The press was really hard on you.
Speaker 5 (04:37):
We've got a case that's down the tubes at this point.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
January Sandlin's attorney exploded in court this morning, outraged after
Tracy Raymon admitted she saw news coverage of her father's
trial yesterday, despite a judge's order not to watch or
read anything about it until it was over.
Speaker 7 (04:54):
I don't think that I have done anything wrong to
effect this man's right.
Speaker 5 (04:59):
So it's just a lot of humiliation. And then you know,
Jan's calling me from the prison on the phone twenty
four to forty eight hours saying, ha ha, you know
you were going to win the battle, but I'm going
to win the war. I mean, he was laughing at me.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
On another topic, there was something the DA's office. Let
you know, it was an action taken by the defense.
Speaker 5 (05:25):
Right after the mistrial happened. Jeff Brickman, Leanne and Jacom
handed me a document, and it was a falsified subpoena
for medical records for me.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
You were not notified that Corin Mal had subpoenaed your records.
She had been looking for what Kathy told the staff
at the psychiatric hospital where she tried to commit you
when you were a teenager, and neither you nor Kathy
would have ever agreed to release your files, right, So
what was it like for you to find out about that?
Speaker 5 (06:03):
It felt like a betrayal all over again. It was,
you know, hey, I can't defend this man, so I've
got to get evidence about this child and try and
get something done.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Cracy Raquel ended up suing public defender Carine Mal, her office,
and the hospital. The case was settled. You want to
talk about the fact that Jan got married while all
this was going on.
Speaker 5 (06:30):
I've heard people say in prison, but really, if he
got married during the trial, what, Yeah, it was the
most bizarre thing. This woman was coming to see him
and her daughter, which turned out to be Jan's daughter,
and I think she was only sixteen or seventeen, but
they were at the courthouse that I remember Leanne and
Jeff calling me and saying, you're not going to believe this.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
And what's even crazier, the media covered it like it
was and a vent.
Speaker 6 (07:01):
Who gives this woman to be married?
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Is it Angela?
Speaker 6 (07:05):
Charlie, Charlene? Do you would you take Jane to be
your witted husband? Do you take this man? Okay, say
this for me. I take Charlene to be my widded wife,
to have and to hold from this day forward, for
better or worse, for richer or poorer, in sickness and help,
(07:30):
and to love and to cherish till death. Do us
for it.
Speaker 5 (07:35):
She was another one of those girls in high school
who was just enamored with him or whatever.
Speaker 6 (07:39):
Ladies and gentlemhen, I present to you, mister and missus
Janne Sadelin.
Speaker 4 (07:44):
I love him very much.
Speaker 7 (07:45):
I believe in his innocence, and I believe that there
would bestly be a retrial, and when there is, they
will have a turnaround authority.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
All these women met him in high school and still
have a thing for him.
Speaker 5 (07:57):
I just don't understand that is a whole separate thinking
that I am not qualified to discuss.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Let's put Kathy's sister, your aunt June in the conversation,
because she got you out of the house she gave
you a job in her hair salon. She did a
lot of wonderful things for you. She was very supportive,
and then she disappeared.
Speaker 5 (08:19):
Well she did, and I love her still. She was
somebody who was very important to me, and she was
in a lot of ways of surrogate. Abuse is not
a one generation thing. It has many generations. It takes
many generations to get to certain places, and everybody in
(08:42):
a family will handle that abuse differently. Kathy has always
said that she grew up in an abusive environment.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Do you think Aunt June would talk about any of
the abuse because she was your advocate as a kid.
We reached out to her.
Speaker 5 (09:00):
She said, oh, I'll do whatever you need. But when
this podcast in the show was actually coming to fruition
to panic, she's not going to be part of that.
She's not going to discuss in a healthy way. For years,
every time it would come up, she would roll her
eyes and be like some of my aunts and uncle
(09:20):
handled it with drug abuse addiction, and some are mentally
not stable. Then you have some that just felt like, Hey,
as far away as I can get from everything and
as much money as I can make, and then I
will be successful. And it doesn't exist. But there's a
rule to that, and that rule is we don't ever
talk about it because you can't go there.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
And Tracy Rickroll and her aunt were clearly not aligned
on the unfinished business Tracy Rokel talked about in our
last episode.
Speaker 5 (09:50):
She would say, you know, it's not your responsibility to
worry about William David Corn. It's not your responsibility to
worry about Nancy Tageer. You know, get over it, just
let it go.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Nancy Tegeter was Jan's first wife, and William David Korn
was the police officer that Tracy Riquel believes may have
been murdered by Jam. Here's an email we got from
a listener. This is really fascinating. So this listener says,
(10:20):
I'm not done with the series, so maybe this question
is premature, But what's the deal with Ted Golder? Wasn't
Matthew his biological son? I thought that was the reason
Jan didn't care about him? So where was he during
the trial when Matthew died? Wouldn't you have been at
the hospital and the funeral. He's never mentioned except when
Tracy Riquel did the paternity test. Wouldn't he want to
(10:43):
put Jan Away for killing his kid. You know, we've
all had that question. That's a really good question. Let's
go back to episode four where Tracy Riquel first told
us about meeting Ted Golder as an adult.
Speaker 7 (10:58):
He really wanted to know if I was his daughter.
He asked if I would do a paternity test, which
I sure now while we were waiting for the results
to come back, and we talked daily, just about things
and life and people, and it was a nice thing.
(11:21):
The paternity test came back and he called and he said,
you're not my daughter. And he said, you know what,
you're a really nice woman. I wish the best for you,
but I don't want anything else to do with you.
You're not my child. And I was in I never
heard from him again.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
But wasn't he upset about Matthew's death? Did he ever
say anything to you about it?
Speaker 5 (11:46):
I mean the only thing he said was he always
thought he did it too.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
That's really something because I think this listener is right.
I mean, you'd think that he would be really happy
about this and really angry about his son's death.
Speaker 5 (12:01):
You'd think you would. Yeah, maybe it all had to
do with people were really afraid of Jan that is
purely speculation because I just don't have any supporting information
for that.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Do you want to talk at all about your illness?
Speaker 5 (12:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (12:19):
Sure.
Speaker 5 (12:21):
I was diagnosed with systemic lupus in the early nineties,
and it suspected that I've had my entire life. You know,
you just don't have flares as often when you're young.
It became really really severe two thousand, two thousand and one,
and it kind of stayed that way. I can function
(12:44):
for the most part, like you know, my body functions
as far as like everything moves the way it's supposed
to be, with the exception of my hands. I mean,
but it is really funny. You know. My daughter has
a friend who the first time I met her, she
said later on to Goldie her mother, how does she
do anything? Doesn't she needs hired help? And Goldie was like,
what are you talking about? And she was like, she
(13:06):
can't well how she functioned, And Goldie was like, Oh,
don't worry, my mom's got a trick for everything, which
is true. I still do pretty much everything I want
to do. It's just might take me three hours to
prep dinner where it would take everybody else a half hour.
But I'm getting it done.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
You've heard a lot of Tracy Riquel's incredible story. It
was important to end this series with the people who
have really been Tercy Rikell's strength, support and focus of
her life. Her husband and her children.
Speaker 5 (13:39):
Yeah two Goldie Hunter. Goldie's the oldest.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Her husband is bart.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
I hadn't asked her to marry me yet, but she
sat me down and she said, I've got some important
things to tell you about me. She went through and
explained some of her child history and the challenges that
she's been through. The most important thing really wasn't so
(14:05):
much in what she was telling me the experiences she's had,
except that the toll that it had taken on her.
She wanted to make sure that I was informed, like, hey,
you know, there's still things that I have to work
through and will continue to be things to work through.
When she told me these things, I was just flabbergasted,
(14:25):
but it made sense to me in a way. She
is such a strong person, and only a strong person
could have gone through these things and be the type
of person that she is today.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
I've known Tracy Raquel for a few years now, and
I can say that she is an innately maternal person.
Caring and supportive. It's just who she is growing up,
taking care of herself and others simply reinforced this. But
becoming a mother without having any kind of example to
follow presented new challenges.
Speaker 8 (14:56):
Here's Goldie definitely say my mom is a helicopter parent.
She was always on top of everything we did or
where we were at, where we were allowed to go.
Speaker 5 (15:09):
I was not prepared for the worry, the concern. Everything
was a potential disaster for me.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
An expert will tell you that a child in Tracy
Rickill's situation will either grow up to repeat the learned
behavior or go in the complete opposite direction.
Speaker 5 (15:27):
You know, Given my childhood, everything was just she's going
to get hurt, she's going to get lost, she's going
to fall, she's going to break, you know anything.
Speaker 8 (15:34):
And there was times where it was very frustrating and
I didn't understand as a child.
Speaker 5 (15:37):
I couldn't even go to the gym and leave her
in the gym daycare because someone was not nice to
her one time. And to me everything was just a catastrophe.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
But to her husband and kids, carrying that weight turn
Tracy Riquel into a fully present and aware parent.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
My wife's experiences has made her a loving mother, one
that has attention to detail, that is always aware of
like how the children are feeling, and will always always
be there for them.
Speaker 8 (16:13):
She gave us love because she didn't want to be
what her parents were.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
I think that there's a level of fear too. They're
never going to be out of her sight, which, in
my mind, this can't be a bad thing. Those kids
are her life.
Speaker 8 (16:27):
It's hard to think that she grew up that way,
to go through that kind of abuse and grow up
living and thinking that you were the cause of your
brother's death or you did it, or have people blaming her,
especially to hide the fact that somebody else like Jano
is a murderer, you know, and a bad person.
Speaker 7 (16:44):
You know.
Speaker 8 (16:44):
To practice them like that as her own mother, to
not protect her child is horrifying because as an adult
she's the opposite.
Speaker 7 (16:53):
You know.
Speaker 8 (16:53):
She loves us so much and can never imagine hurting us.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
A few years after Goldie was born, Trocy Raquel welcomed
her second child, and Hire was born.
Speaker 5 (17:03):
I was twenty seven.
Speaker 9 (17:07):
My mother was a bit overprotective, but seeing where she
came from, it made sense.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
That's hunter.
Speaker 9 (17:15):
I don't know if there's ever a specific moment where
I became aware of my mother's childhood. I think it
was just something that we knew from, you know, snippets
of different stories that she might have told or something.
Speaker 5 (17:27):
First of all, I had to acknowledge my own abuse
and then get to a place where I'm comfortable to
talk about that with my children.
Speaker 8 (17:36):
Oh, it's horrifying. I've seen photos of my mom where,
you know, she's covered in bruises, you know, on her
arms and her legs, and she's two or three years old.
I meet people every day of my life, oh I
was abused or I had a rough childhood.
Speaker 7 (17:50):
I had.
Speaker 8 (17:50):
This happened to me, not once if I ever heard
my mom use that as an excuse.
Speaker 9 (17:55):
There was a lot of anger, sadness. Sorry, give me
one second to compose myself. The fact that she had
to go through that, it is it's hard to think about.
(18:15):
I mean, I love my mom, but death and the
fact that she ended up in a good place and
hunted down justice, fought for justice is that's I guess
the best emotion I can bring out of that is
pride that she ended up in a good spot.
Speaker 5 (18:33):
They both have had their sweet moments showing love and
respect for me.
Speaker 9 (18:38):
When it comes to Matthew, I light a candle on
his birthday, it's just become, I guess, a ritual in
my life.
Speaker 7 (18:46):
You know.
Speaker 9 (18:47):
He didn't get to be here very long, so if anything,
at least people can remember him.
Speaker 5 (18:52):
Hunter was in the fifth grade and he had a
fifth grade teacher who said, you have to do a
report on a famous person. What is the definition of famous. Well,
they had to have been in the news for fifteen minutes.
And so Hunter did his report on me and my
case with Matthew. And Hunter's teacher was from Atlanta and
(19:17):
was in Atlanta when the case happened. And so Hunter's
up there and he didn't say this is my mom.
He's just doing this story about this person, you know.
And the teacher's like, I know this, you know. And
then at the end Hunter says, and oh, by the way,
it's my mom, you know what I mean. And then
they're like, oh what. So I thought that was really sweet.
Speaker 8 (19:39):
My whole life, my mom had always said Matthew was
our guardian angel. There were times in my life where
there was darkness or something bad could have happened or
should have happened, and something, maybe it was an angel,
was like a good feeling, and maybe it was him,
you know, looking over us. To the point that I
(20:00):
tattooed his name on my shoulder because I you know,
I never met him, but I did feel like he
was a big part of my life and watching over me.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Terracy re Kills concern for her baby brother, Matthew spilled
over into other areas of her life.
Speaker 9 (20:21):
My mother was very much give the shirt off your
back for another person. That's always who she's been. She'll
probably live the rest of her life like that. A
lot of who I am stems from her ideals, her
moral code. She inspired me from a young age. She
taught me how a man should be and how a
(20:43):
man should treat a woman, you know, being a good
human being, looking out for others.
Speaker 5 (20:48):
When Hunter was in the second grade, he would take
a snack to school and then he would come home
and he would be hungry. And then the next day
he would say, Mom, I need three stacks. I don't understand.
And he was like, Joey and Sarah and Michelle don't
have snacks, and so and so and so and so
don't have lunch. So I need snat so you would
(21:11):
just give it all away. And that was just him.
Speaker 9 (21:13):
The one thing that still sticks with me to this day.
I guess, like you could say her motto, if you
see a problem and you don't do anything about it,
you're part of that problem.
Speaker 8 (21:26):
There was a time when I was a child, we
lived in not a great neighborhood. I remember there was
a group of people that were going to assault a man,
and I do remember my mom going outside and had
the police on the phone. It was a very dangerous situation,
and nobody else wanted to help. And she was brave
and calling and not afraid. And she said they had
crowbars and things like that. She very well could have
(21:48):
been hurt in that moment, and she had no fear,
no fear.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
She has come a long way in her life, and
I think that she's very modest. She downplays a lot
of things. I think that's the type of person she is.
She's gotten to a place now for she's very mindful
and tries to think of others.
Speaker 5 (22:05):
It has only been in the past three or four
years that I realize you've got to heal, and the
healing part sometimes is the most terrifying thing. But it's
the risk because in order to go through that, you
are gonna fall apart and people are not going to
(22:25):
stand by you. And there's people who are going to say,
oh my gosh, get over, I'm sick of here. And
this shame is this huge thing that's like a part
of everything. Well, I got to get rid of my
own shame.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
The bottom line is anytime that Raca Raquel has a
moment of guilt, the first thing I asked is what
is it that you feel guilty for? You were the
victim in this case.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
What has it been like for you to do this podcast?
Speaker 5 (22:56):
This has been one of the single most important things
that I have done for myself and my family. It's
really about talking about what happened to me and figuring
out who I am and who I want to be,
not based on somebody else's idea or based on some
(23:16):
history of pain and trauma, but letting it all go.
So for me, this has been a revelation, an epiphany.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
But it hasn't been easy, no.
Speaker 5 (23:30):
Oh no, but I am freer every day because of it.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Is there something you want people to know?
Speaker 5 (23:38):
One of the most profound things that I learned as
a very very young child. Is you have a choice,
and I don't have to be anything you say I am.
I don't have to be a failure or loser, or
not pretty enough or not smart enough or any of
those things. I mean, I've had a lot of good
people in my life, and over the past three or
(24:00):
four years, I have had someone very close to me
who has really helped who Well, it's you. Can I say.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
That it is. I'm honored to her that I'm surprised
because I find you very inspirational and I think what
we've been for each other is sort of a sounding
board on these issues. I think it's been healthy for
both of us, and I've certainly, as I said, learned
so much from you and admire you for your strength.
(24:32):
I think we should give Tracy, Riquel's husband Bart the
last word.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
My wife as part of the reason I fell in
love with her. She's a hero to me.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Stay tuned for Burden of Guilty documentary, coming in twenty
twenty four and airing only on Paramount Plus. If you
would like to reach out to the Burden of Guilt team,
email us at Burden of guiltpod at gmail dot com.
That's Burden of Guilt pod at gmail dot com. If
(25:15):
you or someone you know is worried about maltreatment or
suspect that a child is being abused or neglected, call
the Child Help National Child Abuse Hotline. You can call
or text one eight hundred four a child that's one
eight hundred four two two four four five three. One
(25:37):
way to show support is by subscribing to our show
on Apple Podcasts and don't forget to rate and review
Burden of Guilt. Five star reviews go a long way,
A big thank you for listening, and also be sure
to check us out and follow us on Instagram at
Glass Podcasts. Burden of Guilt is a production of Glass Podcasts,
(26:01):
a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts.
The show is hosted and executive produced by me Nancy Glass,
written and produced by Andrea Gunning and Carrie Hartman, also
produced by Ben Fetterman and associate producer Kristin Melchiori. Our
iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crincheck. Special thanks
(26:26):
to Tracy Riquel Burns and her husband Bart. Audio editing
and mixing by Matt Delvecchio. Burden of Guild's theme composed
by Oliver Bains. Music library provided by my Music and
for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, all, we have some exciting news to share. Paramount
Plus has turned Burden of Guilt into a docuseries. You
will get to meet the people involved, You'll hear from
the people who have never spoken before, and you get
to see where the story took place. We are so
proud and excited to share it with you. You can
(00:20):
stream it right now on Paramount Plus. Jan Berry Sandlin
left his third trial convicted of the murder of Matthew Golder,
and in two thousand and one, the Supreme Court of
Georgia held up the verdict on appeal. He remains in
(00:45):
a Florida prison and the consequences of his bad acts
continued to reverberate. He will die in prison. I'm Nancy
Glass and this is Burden of Guilt, Episode eight, The
(01:06):
Last Word. Tracy Riquel's story started in nineteen seventy one
and it isn't over yet. In the last episode, we
learn more about the unfinished business that still weighs on her.
Did Jan Barry Sandlin commit other murders and get away
(01:26):
with them. I've reached out to Jan for an interview
and he said yes, but the prison won't let us in.
If that changes, we will update you. This series has
been several years in the making, so we want to
tie up some loose ends. Okay, Tracy Riquel, let's start here.
You didn't go to Matthew's exhumation, and you were the
(01:50):
reason it was happening, right, you wanted to explain why
you didn't go. Matthew's exhumation was a pivotal point in
the investigation and in Jan's conviction. The Medical Examiner's office
exhumed Matthew's body with very little expectation of finding any
remains to study after so many years. So just to
(02:13):
set this up, here's what the district attorney and medical
examiner told us.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
When we got there.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
It was a clear day, a little cool, and when
I got to the grave site, the dirt had already
been moved. I'd remember feeling a bit more somber. It
seemed to me that we were disturbing a sleeping baby,
(02:39):
and that really bothered me.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Assistant District Attorney Leanne Manguon attended the exhumation. She tried
to support Kathy as she watched everything unfold. Tracy Raquel
was not there.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
I remember her being quite emotional, crying, and I kind
of took my cues from her.
Speaker 5 (02:58):
She wanted to stand back, and that happened. I didn't
go to the exhumation because there was already so much
media attention, and I knew that Kathy was going with
the district attorneys and we were barely on speaking terms
if that, and I just felt like it would be disrespectful,
(03:20):
you know, to go and what stand on the other
side of the cemetery, away from her, right.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
You didn't want to call more attention or attention in
the wrong way to what was going on.
Speaker 5 (03:33):
Correct, Yes, the titchen needed to be about Matthew's death,
his homicide, and how are we going to take care
of that? That needed to be the priority.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Let's talk about the mistrial for a sec You were
told you couldn't watch the trial or read about it,
but you did catch a glimpse of your mother on
TV and you told the prosecution about that because it
was the right thing to do. Let's listen to what
the judge said about that.
Speaker 6 (04:04):
There has been an egregious violation of the witness of
frustration rule, which in the context of this case, is irreputable.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
You felt you were demonized for this.
Speaker 5 (04:14):
It's just how it was to trade. You know, everything
from the mistrial happening, what media press. I mean, I
think that was bigger story than the fact that this
case got reopened. Was like, Oh, the girl who you
know has spent all her life trying to get this
case reopen, just ruined it because she can't follow rules.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
The press was really hard on you.
Speaker 5 (04:37):
We've got a case that's down the tubes at this point.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
January Sandlin's attorney exploded in court this morning, outraged after
Tracy Raymon admitted she saw news coverage of her father's
trial yesterday, despite a judge's order not to watch or
read anything about it until it was over.
Speaker 7 (04:54):
I don't think that I have done anything wrong to
effect this man's right.
Speaker 5 (04:59):
So it's just a lot of humiliation. And then you know,
Jan's calling me from the prison on the phone twenty
four to forty eight hours saying, ha ha, you know
you were going to win the battle, but I'm going
to win the war. I mean, he was laughing at me.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
On another topic, there was something the DA's office. Let
you know, it was an action taken by the defense.
Speaker 5 (05:25):
Right after the mistrial happened. Jeff Brickman, Leanne and Jacom
handed me a document, and it was a falsified subpoena
for medical records for me.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
You were not notified that Corin Mal had subpoenaed your records.
She had been looking for what Kathy told the staff
at the psychiatric hospital where she tried to commit you
when you were a teenager, and neither you nor Kathy
would have ever agreed to release your files, right, So
what was it like for you to find out about that?
Speaker 5 (06:03):
It felt like a betrayal all over again. It was,
you know, hey, I can't defend this man, so I've
got to get evidence about this child and try and
get something done.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Cracy Raquel ended up suing public defender Carine Mal, her office,
and the hospital. The case was settled. You want to
talk about the fact that Jan got married while all
this was going on.
Speaker 5 (06:30):
I've heard people say in prison, but really, if he
got married during the trial, what, Yeah, it was the
most bizarre thing. This woman was coming to see him
and her daughter, which turned out to be Jan's daughter,
and I think she was only sixteen or seventeen, but
they were at the courthouse that I remember Leanne and
Jeff calling me and saying, you're not going to believe this.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
And what's even crazier, the media covered it like it
was and a vent.
Speaker 6 (07:01):
Who gives this woman to be married?
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Is it Angela?
Speaker 6 (07:05):
Charlie, Charlene? Do you would you take Jane to be
your witted husband? Do you take this man? Okay, say
this for me. I take Charlene to be my widded wife,
to have and to hold from this day forward, for
better or worse, for richer or poorer, in sickness and help,
(07:30):
and to love and to cherish till death. Do us
for it.
Speaker 5 (07:35):
She was another one of those girls in high school
who was just enamored with him or whatever.
Speaker 6 (07:39):
Ladies and gentlemhen, I present to you, mister and missus
Janne Sadelin.
Speaker 4 (07:44):
I love him very much.
Speaker 7 (07:45):
I believe in his innocence, and I believe that there
would bestly be a retrial, and when there is, they
will have a turnaround authority.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
All these women met him in high school and still
have a thing for him.
Speaker 5 (07:57):
I just don't understand that is a whole separate thinking
that I am not qualified to discuss.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Let's put Kathy's sister, your aunt June in the conversation,
because she got you out of the house she gave
you a job in her hair salon. She did a
lot of wonderful things for you. She was very supportive,
and then she disappeared.
Speaker 5 (08:19):
Well she did, and I love her still. She was
somebody who was very important to me, and she was
in a lot of ways of surrogate. Abuse is not
a one generation thing. It has many generations. It takes
many generations to get to certain places, and everybody in
(08:42):
a family will handle that abuse differently. Kathy has always
said that she grew up in an abusive environment.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Do you think Aunt June would talk about any of
the abuse because she was your advocate as a kid.
We reached out to her.
Speaker 5 (09:00):
She said, oh, I'll do whatever you need. But when
this podcast in the show was actually coming to fruition
to panic, she's not going to be part of that.
She's not going to discuss in a healthy way. For years,
every time it would come up, she would roll her
eyes and be like some of my aunts and uncle
(09:20):
handled it with drug abuse addiction, and some are mentally
not stable. Then you have some that just felt like, Hey,
as far away as I can get from everything and
as much money as I can make, and then I
will be successful. And it doesn't exist. But there's a
rule to that, and that rule is we don't ever
talk about it because you can't go there.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
And Tracy Rickroll and her aunt were clearly not aligned
on the unfinished business Tracy Rokel talked about in our
last episode.
Speaker 5 (09:50):
She would say, you know, it's not your responsibility to
worry about William David Corn. It's not your responsibility to
worry about Nancy Tageer. You know, get over it, just
let it go.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Nancy Tegeter was Jan's first wife, and William David Korn
was the police officer that Tracy Riquel believes may have
been murdered by Jam. Here's an email we got from
a listener. This is really fascinating. So this listener says,
(10:20):
I'm not done with the series, so maybe this question
is premature, But what's the deal with Ted Golder? Wasn't
Matthew his biological son? I thought that was the reason
Jan didn't care about him? So where was he during
the trial when Matthew died? Wouldn't you have been at
the hospital and the funeral. He's never mentioned except when
Tracy Riquel did the paternity test. Wouldn't he want to
(10:43):
put Jan Away for killing his kid. You know, we've
all had that question. That's a really good question. Let's
go back to episode four where Tracy Riquel first told
us about meeting Ted Golder as an adult.
Speaker 7 (10:58):
He really wanted to know if I was his daughter.
He asked if I would do a paternity test, which
I sure now while we were waiting for the results
to come back, and we talked daily, just about things
and life and people, and it was a nice thing.
(11:21):
The paternity test came back and he called and he said,
you're not my daughter. And he said, you know what,
you're a really nice woman. I wish the best for you,
but I don't want anything else to do with you.
You're not my child. And I was in I never
heard from him again.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
But wasn't he upset about Matthew's death? Did he ever
say anything to you about it?
Speaker 5 (11:46):
I mean the only thing he said was he always
thought he did it too.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
That's really something because I think this listener is right.
I mean, you'd think that he would be really happy
about this and really angry about his son's death.
Speaker 5 (12:01):
You'd think you would. Yeah, maybe it all had to
do with people were really afraid of Jan that is
purely speculation because I just don't have any supporting information
for that.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Do you want to talk at all about your illness?
Speaker 5 (12:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (12:19):
Sure.
Speaker 5 (12:21):
I was diagnosed with systemic lupus in the early nineties,
and it suspected that I've had my entire life. You know,
you just don't have flares as often when you're young.
It became really really severe two thousand, two thousand and one,
and it kind of stayed that way. I can function
(12:44):
for the most part, like you know, my body functions
as far as like everything moves the way it's supposed
to be, with the exception of my hands. I mean,
but it is really funny. You know. My daughter has
a friend who the first time I met her, she
said later on to Goldie her mother, how does she
do anything? Doesn't she needs hired help? And Goldie was like,
what are you talking about? And she was like, she
(13:06):
can't well how she functioned, And Goldie was like, Oh,
don't worry, my mom's got a trick for everything, which
is true. I still do pretty much everything I want
to do. It's just might take me three hours to
prep dinner where it would take everybody else a half hour.
But I'm getting it done.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
You've heard a lot of Tracy Riquel's incredible story. It
was important to end this series with the people who
have really been Tercy Rikell's strength, support and focus of
her life. Her husband and her children.
Speaker 5 (13:39):
Yeah two Goldie Hunter. Goldie's the oldest.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Her husband is bart.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
I hadn't asked her to marry me yet, but she
sat me down and she said, I've got some important
things to tell you about me. She went through and
explained some of her child history and the challenges that
she's been through. The most important thing really wasn't so
(14:05):
much in what she was telling me the experiences she's had,
except that the toll that it had taken on her.
She wanted to make sure that I was informed, like, hey,
you know, there's still things that I have to work
through and will continue to be things to work through.
When she told me these things, I was just flabbergasted,
(14:25):
but it made sense to me in a way. She
is such a strong person, and only a strong person
could have gone through these things and be the type
of person that she is today.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
I've known Tracy Raquel for a few years now, and
I can say that she is an innately maternal person.
Caring and supportive. It's just who she is growing up,
taking care of herself and others simply reinforced this. But
becoming a mother without having any kind of example to
follow presented new challenges.
Speaker 8 (14:56):
Here's Goldie definitely say my mom is a helicopter parent.
She was always on top of everything we did or
where we were at, where we were allowed to go.
Speaker 5 (15:09):
I was not prepared for the worry, the concern. Everything
was a potential disaster for me.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
An expert will tell you that a child in Tracy
Rickill's situation will either grow up to repeat the learned
behavior or go in the complete opposite direction.
Speaker 5 (15:27):
You know, Given my childhood, everything was just she's going
to get hurt, she's going to get lost, she's going
to fall, she's going to break, you know anything.
Speaker 8 (15:34):
And there was times where it was very frustrating and
I didn't understand as a child.
Speaker 5 (15:37):
I couldn't even go to the gym and leave her
in the gym daycare because someone was not nice to
her one time. And to me everything was just a catastrophe.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
But to her husband and kids, carrying that weight turn
Tracy Riquel into a fully present and aware parent.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
My wife's experiences has made her a loving mother, one
that has attention to detail, that is always aware of
like how the children are feeling, and will always always
be there for them.
Speaker 8 (16:13):
She gave us love because she didn't want to be
what her parents were.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
I think that there's a level of fear too. They're
never going to be out of her sight, which, in
my mind, this can't be a bad thing. Those kids
are her life.
Speaker 8 (16:27):
It's hard to think that she grew up that way,
to go through that kind of abuse and grow up
living and thinking that you were the cause of your
brother's death or you did it, or have people blaming her,
especially to hide the fact that somebody else like Jano
is a murderer, you know, and a bad person.
Speaker 7 (16:44):
You know.
Speaker 8 (16:44):
To practice them like that as her own mother, to
not protect her child is horrifying because as an adult
she's the opposite.
Speaker 7 (16:53):
You know.
Speaker 8 (16:53):
She loves us so much and can never imagine hurting us.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
A few years after Goldie was born, Trocy Raquel welcomed
her second child, and Hire was born.
Speaker 5 (17:03):
I was twenty seven.
Speaker 9 (17:07):
My mother was a bit overprotective, but seeing where she
came from, it made sense.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
That's hunter.
Speaker 9 (17:15):
I don't know if there's ever a specific moment where
I became aware of my mother's childhood. I think it
was just something that we knew from, you know, snippets
of different stories that she might have told or something.
Speaker 5 (17:27):
First of all, I had to acknowledge my own abuse
and then get to a place where I'm comfortable to
talk about that with my children.
Speaker 8 (17:36):
Oh, it's horrifying. I've seen photos of my mom where,
you know, she's covered in bruises, you know, on her
arms and her legs, and she's two or three years old.
I meet people every day of my life, oh I
was abused or I had a rough childhood.
Speaker 7 (17:50):
I had.
Speaker 8 (17:50):
This happened to me, not once if I ever heard
my mom use that as an excuse.
Speaker 9 (17:55):
There was a lot of anger, sadness. Sorry, give me
one second to compose myself. The fact that she had
to go through that, it is it's hard to think about.
(18:15):
I mean, I love my mom, but death and the
fact that she ended up in a good place and
hunted down justice, fought for justice is that's I guess
the best emotion I can bring out of that is
pride that she ended up in a good spot.
Speaker 5 (18:33):
They both have had their sweet moments showing love and
respect for me.
Speaker 9 (18:38):
When it comes to Matthew, I light a candle on
his birthday, it's just become, I guess, a ritual in
my life.
Speaker 7 (18:46):
You know.
Speaker 9 (18:47):
He didn't get to be here very long, so if anything,
at least people can remember him.
Speaker 5 (18:52):
Hunter was in the fifth grade and he had a
fifth grade teacher who said, you have to do a
report on a famous person. What is the definition of famous. Well,
they had to have been in the news for fifteen minutes.
And so Hunter did his report on me and my
case with Matthew. And Hunter's teacher was from Atlanta and
(19:17):
was in Atlanta when the case happened. And so Hunter's
up there and he didn't say this is my mom.
He's just doing this story about this person, you know.
And the teacher's like, I know this, you know. And
then at the end Hunter says, and oh, by the way,
it's my mom, you know what I mean. And then
they're like, oh what. So I thought that was really sweet.
Speaker 8 (19:39):
My whole life, my mom had always said Matthew was
our guardian angel. There were times in my life where
there was darkness or something bad could have happened or
should have happened, and something, maybe it was an angel,
was like a good feeling, and maybe it was him,
you know, looking over us. To the point that I
(20:00):
tattooed his name on my shoulder because I you know,
I never met him, but I did feel like he
was a big part of my life and watching over me.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Terracy re Kills concern for her baby brother, Matthew spilled
over into other areas of her life.
Speaker 9 (20:21):
My mother was very much give the shirt off your
back for another person. That's always who she's been. She'll
probably live the rest of her life like that. A
lot of who I am stems from her ideals, her
moral code. She inspired me from a young age. She
taught me how a man should be and how a
(20:43):
man should treat a woman, you know, being a good
human being, looking out for others.
Speaker 5 (20:48):
When Hunter was in the second grade, he would take
a snack to school and then he would come home
and he would be hungry. And then the next day
he would say, Mom, I need three stacks. I don't understand.
And he was like, Joey and Sarah and Michelle don't
have snacks, and so and so and so and so
don't have lunch. So I need snat so you would
(21:11):
just give it all away. And that was just him.
Speaker 9 (21:13):
The one thing that still sticks with me to this day.
I guess, like you could say her motto, if you
see a problem and you don't do anything about it,
you're part of that problem.
Speaker 8 (21:26):
There was a time when I was a child, we
lived in not a great neighborhood. I remember there was
a group of people that were going to assault a man,
and I do remember my mom going outside and had
the police on the phone. It was a very dangerous situation,
and nobody else wanted to help. And she was brave
and calling and not afraid. And she said they had
crowbars and things like that. She very well could have
(21:48):
been hurt in that moment, and she had no fear,
no fear.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
She has come a long way in her life, and
I think that she's very modest. She downplays a lot
of things. I think that's the type of person she is.
She's gotten to a place now for she's very mindful
and tries to think of others.
Speaker 5 (22:05):
It has only been in the past three or four
years that I realize you've got to heal, and the
healing part sometimes is the most terrifying thing. But it's
the risk because in order to go through that, you
are gonna fall apart and people are not going to
(22:25):
stand by you. And there's people who are going to say,
oh my gosh, get over, I'm sick of here. And
this shame is this huge thing that's like a part
of everything. Well, I got to get rid of my
own shame.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
The bottom line is anytime that Raca Raquel has a
moment of guilt, the first thing I asked is what
is it that you feel guilty for? You were the
victim in this case.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
What has it been like for you to do this podcast?
Speaker 5 (22:56):
This has been one of the single most important things
that I have done for myself and my family. It's
really about talking about what happened to me and figuring
out who I am and who I want to be,
not based on somebody else's idea or based on some
(23:16):
history of pain and trauma, but letting it all go.
So for me, this has been a revelation, an epiphany.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
But it hasn't been easy, no.
Speaker 5 (23:30):
Oh no, but I am freer every day because of it.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Is there something you want people to know?
Speaker 5 (23:38):
One of the most profound things that I learned as
a very very young child. Is you have a choice,
and I don't have to be anything you say I am.
I don't have to be a failure or loser, or
not pretty enough or not smart enough or any of
those things. I mean, I've had a lot of good
people in my life, and over the past three or
(24:00):
four years, I have had someone very close to me
who has really helped who Well, it's you. Can I say.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
That it is. I'm honored to her that I'm surprised
because I find you very inspirational and I think what
we've been for each other is sort of a sounding
board on these issues. I think it's been healthy for
both of us, and I've certainly, as I said, learned
so much from you and admire you for your strength.
(24:32):
I think we should give Tracy, Riquel's husband Bart the
last word.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
My wife as part of the reason I fell in
love with her. She's a hero to me.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Stay tuned for Burden of Guilty documentary, coming in twenty
twenty four and airing only on Paramount Plus. If you
would like to reach out to the Burden of Guilt team,
email us at Burden of guiltpod at gmail dot com.
That's Burden of Guilt pod at gmail dot com. If
(25:15):
you or someone you know is worried about maltreatment or
suspect that a child is being abused or neglected, call
the Child Help National Child Abuse Hotline. You can call
or text one eight hundred four a child that's one
eight hundred four two two four four five three. One
(25:37):
way to show support is by subscribing to our show
on Apple Podcasts and don't forget to rate and review
Burden of Guilt. Five star reviews go a long way,
A big thank you for listening, and also be sure
to check us out and follow us on Instagram at
Glass Podcasts. Burden of Guilt is a production of Glass Podcasts,
(26:01):
a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts.
The show is hosted and executive produced by me Nancy Glass,
written and produced by Andrea Gunning and Carrie Hartman, also
produced by Ben Fetterman and associate producer Kristin Melchiori. Our
iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crincheck. Special thanks
(26:26):
to Tracy Riquel Burns and her husband Bart. Audio editing
and mixing by Matt Delvecchio. Burden of Guild's theme composed
by Oliver Bains. Music library provided by my Music and
for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Host
Nancy Glass
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