April 23, 2025 • 49 mins
On today’s episode, the first part of a two-parter, Kate and Paul head to 1924 England where a young couple is faced with an unplanned pregnancy and the police are faced with murder. In what could seem like a simple open-and-shut case, a discovery changes everything.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the
last twenty five years writing about true crime.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's
worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most
compelling true crimes.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring
new insights to old mysteries.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime
cases through a twenty first century lens.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
This is buried bones.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Hey, Kate, how are you?
Speaker 1 (01:02):
I'm great, Paul, how are you?
Speaker 3 (01:04):
I am doing good? What's going on?
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Have you done very much ancestry stuff? And I don't
mean Golden State killer genealogy stuff. I mean you Paul Holes.
Have you traced any ancestors using ancestry at all?
Speaker 3 (01:18):
No? I definitely have.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Okay, did you find anything interesting?
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (01:21):
You know it's as you go back in time, the
family spreads out, if that makes any sense. My dad's
side of the family. You know, the Hole's surname. When
you go back several centuries. We actually came from England
and it wasn't holes, it was whole as in singular,
which was interesting to me because I worked with a
da by the name of Bob Hole and we always
(01:43):
just kind of chuckled because you never run across people
with the whole surname or whole surname, and good chance
Bob and I are probably related. Unfortunately he passed away
quite a few years ago now, but you know, going
back on my dad's mom's side, that's a very Germanic lineage.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
You know.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Also finding you know, a town in Germany where at
least the Wolf side of the family originated out of,
you know, so things like that. It's pretty cool to
get that kind of information about your your ancestors.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Have you ever uploaded your DNA or are you against that?
Speaker 2 (02:18):
When I was trying to figure out how to do
the genealogy with a Golden State killer case, my parents
had actually tested themselves at Ancestry, and you can't upload
a profile from some other place into Ancestry. You have
to send your DNA to Ancestry to have it go
into Ancestry, but they allow you to download those profiles,
(02:38):
so I downloaded both my parents' profiles and put it
into a website called jedmatch, And jed match is the
one that you can upload profiles if you've been tested
at twenty three and meters or ancestry, et cetera. And
so I did that and of course got the you know,
the various distant relatives that share a percentage of their
DNA with my parents. And then ultimately I put my
(03:00):
DNA up there because I want to be able to
help cases, you know, And so I opted in so
law enforcement can use my DNA in case, you know,
somebody that's related to me is responsible for a crime.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Well, I'm relieved you're not a hypocrite. First of all,
jet Match is the one that law enforcement are able
to use directly, Right do they have to get like
subpoenas or anything like that.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
So you have two websites that law enforcement can use,
and that is jetmatch and Jetmatch. The users have to
explicitly opt in to allow law enforcement to search their profiles.
If they don't opt in, they can still utilize jet
Match for genealogy purposes, and their profiles are not searchable
(03:42):
for law enforcement. The other database law enforcement uses is
Family tree DNA, and that's something that is now being
managed by my employer author. The other websites like ancestry
and twenty three and meters do not permit law enforcement
to search their databases.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Got it, Well, this was all a big lead up
to a funny story. I think it's funny, at least
from the listener's last viewer. Her name's Ellen, and she
seems lovely. She emailed me very early, or I received
it very early, a couple of weeks ago, and it
was like a I searched ancestry. I'm trying to figure
out what happened to my I think it was her
(04:19):
great great grandfather. He came from Sweden, went to New
Orleans and then sort of vanished. And the family rumor,
and we know all about family rumors here, the family
rumor was that he was murdered and then tossed off
a doc in New Orleans. So I said, okay, let
me dig around because a lot of people, you know,
(04:39):
they'll look on ancestry and they'll do the general search.
But I subscribe to newspapers dot Com. Huge shout out
to newspapers dot com. Love him, love him, love him.
I've been using it. For I think probably about ten years.
So I just hopped on and this guy's first name
is Axel, and then there was a middle name and
then a last name that were way too complicated for
me to even pronounce here. So I looked nothing, nothing
(05:02):
from this guy with the first and named Axel middle
last name in newspapers dot com, which was really unusual
for me. I usually can dig up something. And then
she said, this is when he was born, and you
know all of this and this is where. So what
she knew from ancestry was where he was born in Sweden,
the year and the approximate birthday, and that was basically it.
(05:23):
She couldn't find immigration papers or anything like that. So
from my time writing American Sherlock, I was going crazy
trying to figure out why my forensic scientist Oscar Heinrich
couldn't stand his father. He was so mad at his father,
and I couldn't figure out what was happening. And about
two weeks before my deadline to send American Sherlock to
(05:43):
my editor, I was futson around at three in the
morning like I do sometimes, and I misspelled his father's
name in newspapers dot com and up pops all this information.
His father took his own life because of the family finances.
And that's why I mean all of this, just because
they spelled his last name wrong. So I misspelled this
(06:04):
guy Axel's middle name, and up pops a treasure trove
of information. Most importantly, the first thing I saw was
a prison photo of this guy. Oh really, I know,
you said. You think that he came to America in
nineteen seventeen or maybe before. He was in prison in
Sweden in nineteen fourteen. I don't know why, but it
(06:26):
was a you know, very menacing photo. When I sent
it to her, and because of the last it was
literally one letter. It was the letter R that I changed.
She was able to trace everything. And she said, I
don't think he was tossed off a dog. I think
he died at sea because he served in the I
think she said the Navy, maybe, so all of it.
It was one letter that changed all of this and
sort of I think she was able to put together
(06:48):
some pieces about this part of the family, and the
family still talks about this, and this happened in you know,
nineteen fifteen, nineteen sixteen. So when I say it's important,
the work we do is important to people. Even though
this is generations back, the family's still talking about it
over Thanksgiving. They're talking about this guy. It has been
(07:09):
dead for more than one hundred years. So please to
the listeners. I don't do this for many people. I
think I was just bored this morning when I did it,
just like, okay, whatever, what the hell help is it?
But it was so funny to just see this prison photo.
She wasn't phased by that, but you know, I mean
that little bit. And I know you probably know this
from law enforcement too. Just you know, people when they're
(07:30):
using a different name, and man, you can be really stymied.
I was so frustrated. But then all of a sudden,
I get all of this information with just one letter,
which was crazy for me.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Well, and I've experienced that myself when I was, you know,
doing the genealogy and would rely on newspapers dot com
in order to flesh out family trees. And what what
I have found is, you know newspapers, you know, they
scan those old papers and then they optical character recognition
OCR and some letters or some fonts. It doesn't do
(08:02):
a good job. So I have run into the same
situation where now I'm trying different permutations of the spelling
of the name, and then we'll have success. And I
don't know if newspapers dot Com allows for wild card searching,
where you can put like the asterisk in for it
could be any letter at this location in the name.
If they don't do that, that is actually very helpful
(08:23):
because of this ocr problem that I've run across.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Well, it was a huge deal to me with American Sherlock,
because you know, it answered so many questions that were
important to me in the book. But I think for Ellen,
she was pleased to receive all less information. And I
knew something was wrong because everybody, even in the eighteen hundreds,
everybody showed up in the newspaper one way or the other.
And I think I found his subsequent children or grandchildren
(08:50):
or something because that exact kind of name with a
different middle name was popping up. But anyway, I thought
that was a funny story, just about searching for family members.
And you know, if you thought that people complain about
the inaccuracy of newspapers, now you should try doing what
I do in reading eighteen hundreds newspapers. Man, I mean,
just the wildest names.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Every no for sure, you know, but it really just underscores,
you know, how technology is giving access to data that
before you'd have to go into a library and flip
through paper copies of newspapers if they even had, you know,
the addition that you needed.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Yeah, Mike Rafficha, I've done that many times too, and yeah,
so this was this was quite an experience. It was
another good reminder of just trying to stick with something,
you know, sort of the perseverance. It wasn't my family,
but it was fun to do.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
No, very cool.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Well, talk about media, we are getting rend to step
into a media circus here with the story that we're
going to do. It's going to be a two parter
because it's a pretty big story and it was a
really big deal when it happened. Where we're heading is
the nineteen twenties, almost mid nineteen twenties England, which sounds
very romantic to me. It was not, I think at
(10:03):
this time period, certainly World War One. This story I
think really gets to the heart of relationships and trying
to sort out what happened to our victim, because it's
a big question mark for me right now.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
All right, So England, that's one of your favorite.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Places it is, So get some tea and a crumpet
if you've ever had you had a crumpet before. I
love them, love them, No, I don't think, so I'll
make you some some time. Okay, let's set the scene. Okay,
Like I said, the case is in England and it's
the early nineteen twenties, and we have two main players
here and we have to sort out. This is a
(10:43):
I feel like the smallest cast of characters we might
have worked with here, but we'll see what you think.
And then a very very very very famous pathologist that
you'll recognize immediately because we've talked about them before. So
this is an intriguing case. So one of our main
people is named Norman Thorn, and in the nineteen twenties,
very early nineteen twenties, he meets a young woman named
(11:04):
Elsie Cameron and she's a typist. So Norman and Elsie
and they meet at church. They are now falling in love.
And Norman, just so we know about kind of ages
and stuff, Norman's about twenty and Elsie is about two
years older. So at this point, if you want to
go ahead and open up your photos, you can see
(11:26):
a photo of the two of them. I will say
I am struck by. I feel like they both look
a little older than twenty and twenty two.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Okay, so I'm looking at I'm assuming this is this
is a Norman and Elsie.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
Norman is seated, Elsie is standing.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
It's just like a typical family, you know, portrait with
this couple.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
Norm's got a three.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Piece suit on Elsie's you know, just got a dress.
And yeah, I would not have expected that they were
as young as they are by looking at their photos.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
They do look more mature.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
But you know, that's what it seems like if you
ever look at like I look at my parents' yearbooks,
and everybody in there, even though they're.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
High schoolers, look like they're in their thirties.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
What do you think that was? Like just a hard
life or I.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
Don't know, it seems consistent too, you know.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Yeah, absolutely. You know when we do these stories from
the eighteen hundreds, and it's always when they're on a farm,
boy they look rough, and I know it's sun exposure
and just hard work and stuff. But I sort of
picked up on that they both look a little older
than what they are. But anyway, so we've got Norman
and we've got Elsie and they meet at church they
fall in love. So in nineteen twenty one, Norman is working.
(12:39):
He's either an engineer or kind of an electrician in
training one or the other. But he's he has a
good job, it sounds like. But he loses that job
in nineteen twenty one and no word on why, but
it doesn't sound like anything controversial. He loses this job
so he has to get back on his feet. So
his parents want to help him out. He's close with
his parents and they give him some land in an
(13:02):
area called crowbro which is in East Sussex, and this
is about a train ride away from London. He is
not particularly close physically to Elsie. She's staying with her parents.
She's also remember quite young, but they're able to see
each other. So this guy who had gone from being
an engineer or an electrician now starts his life over
(13:26):
as a chicken farmer, which seems pretty different. Yes, So
he is living in a tiny hut on the property.
It is eighty five square feet. Oh wow, my cottage
is I think about one seventy five square feet, so
you know he's living in half the space of where
I am right now, which is very small. I was
(13:47):
going to ask you this. You know, I lived in
a very small space when I lived in New York.
I was in the Greenwich Village. I was, you know,
literally right on where NYU is, and my bathroom was
so small, was literally in a closet. My bathroom was
so small that you could pee and brush your teeth
at the same time because the sink was right there.
(14:10):
That's probably Tami. And then our kitchen was also in
a closet, and you could have your foot on the
bathtub actually in the bathtub, all at the same time
if you needed to. So have you lived in a
small space before?
Speaker 3 (14:21):
You know, the.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Smallest space was when I was living in It's actually
a relatively upscale town called Wamut Creek in the East Bay.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Oh yeah, I love Walnut Creek.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Yeah, it's an amazing town. And I rented a small
studio which it did have a small kitchen. It had
just a single room that doubled as the bedroom and
then a small bathroom. Now I couldn't pee and brush
my teeth in this bathroom, nor would I want to
try to do that.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
But I never tried. Paul I'm just saying that that's
how small it was.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
So that's probably in terms of me individually, that's probably
the smallest space that I've personally lived in.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Norman's in a very small space, so eighty five square feet,
and I've been calling it a cottage. I don't think
it is. They're calling it the hut. He's not making
very much money as a chicken farmer. It doesn't sound
like he had that much experience to begin with, but
he's making a go of it because I don't think
he feels like he has much of a choice. Why
don't I show you what the farm looks like. So
(15:25):
if you scroll down past that photo of Norman and Elsie,
you'll see the farm on the second page, and you'll
see the hut. I think that's the hut. Tell me
what you see?
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Yeah, you know, So this is a photo.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
It looks like it's taken from the perspective of a
road and possibly just a dirt road, and then there's
a gate that in essence is in between the road
and where the structures are, and behind this gate appears
to be just a drive area that goes back to
(15:59):
where now I see, I mean, it looks like a
log cabin, you know, from this photo, it's it's not
more much more than that, Yeah, you know, surrounded by
some land and some equipment.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Yeah, I mean it looks and you see the chicken
coops kind of around. It looks like there might be
one attached to the cabin thing.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
What do you think I can see that? Yeah, I
think that's right.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Yeah, this is pretty small. So, you know, this seems
like a big difference, lifestyle difference for Norman. But like
I said, he's making a go of it. He and
Elsie are still together and actually a year after they
sort of you know, separate, physically separate, they get engaged
by nineteen twenty two. But it seems like this distance
(16:39):
is sort of getting to Norman and he is starting
to cool on the relationship by you know, shortly after
when they get engaged. So I think Elsie is feeling
like there's a growing disconnect between the two of them,
and it sounds like Elsie was really in love with him,
but Norman was keeping his distance alone a little bit
(17:00):
to keep the relationship alive. Elsie takes the train to
visit Norman much more often than he goes to visit her,
so November of nineteen twenty four. I mean, remember that
this has been a year and a half that she's
been trying to keep this relationship going because she really
loves him and they're both, you know, part of a church.
It sounded like actually that they were both Sunday school
(17:23):
teachers at one point, so having a relationship with him
and getting married is really important to her. In November
of nineteen twenty four, Elsie writes to Norman that she's pregnant.
So the way this would have gone in quote unquote
proper society in this time period is they would not
have had sex. Then he asked her to marry him,
(17:44):
and then quite possibly she said okay, because you're committing
to me. So that's how I think we get around
the whole idea that you know, she seemed devout, you know,
maybe a devout Christian. But then then, of course, this
is where we've talked about the Heartbahm lawsuits that come
out when a man says, marry me, and then they
have sex and then he's tired of her, and then
he leaves and she's sort of quote unquote ruined. So
(18:07):
she says that she's pregnant. I mean, I don't know
how many times I can say this that the number
one reason pregnant women die is murder and postpartum also,
so you know already, even though I haven't told you
who the victim is, we have somebody who is at risk.
He's distanced himself from her, and now he believes she's pregnant.
So what do you think so far?
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Well, do you know how far along she is in
the pregnancy?
Speaker 1 (18:32):
She does not tell him, but it doesn't sound like
her parents know. And I would assume that she, you know,
noticed that she wasn't getting her period anymore, and that
was the conclusion. I don't hear anything about a doctor,
her going to a doctor, and you know, confirming it
that way. So she's making some assumptions. It doesn't sound
(18:55):
like very far along though.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
I guess, you know, some of the questions that I
pop into my mind because I know this is going
to end tragically for Elsie in all likelihood. You know,
if she's indicating to Norman that she's pregnant, does he
have concern that the child is not his? Which from
a victimology standpoint, doesn't sound like Elsie would necessarily be
(19:17):
having sex with some other man. You know, so that's
probably a little bit unlikely. But does Norman feel that,
you know, as he's growing more and more distance in
the relationship, is Elsie using the pregnancy sort of to
trap him?
Speaker 3 (19:30):
You know?
Speaker 2 (19:30):
So if Elsie ultimately ends up murdered, then of course
there's some concern about what Norman's motive may be based
off of his stance in this relationship and how he's
feeling about Elsie.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Absolutely, and you know, when you were saying if Norman's
concerned about her sleeping with somebody else, I get the
impression that he is ready to cut ties with Elsie.
He probably would have been happy if she had been
with somebody else. But I also don't know the egos
of men in the nineteen twenties. But I think you're
right kind of based on her in general. Like that
photo that I showed you look almost like a church photo,
(20:03):
like somebody took it posing outside of the church. I'm
not seeing Elsie sleeping around, but you're right, who knows.
So she is freaking out when she finds out she's pregnant.
She says to Norman, I want to get married as
soon as possible, which, of course makes sense because this
would not be a good thing socially for her, and
I'm assuming her parents would not approve of this, and
(20:25):
she lives with them. But Norman is characteristically of Norman,
very wishy washy with her, and he says that I've
got some news for you. Instead of saying this face
to face, he sends her a letter, which to me
is like a low budget text. He sends her a
letter that says, I know you say you're pregnant, but
I'm seeing another woman and her name is Elizabeth Caldecott.
(20:48):
He says, Elizabeth thinks I am to marry her, and
I have a strong feeling for her. So now what's happening?
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Well, now you see where Norman is probably feeling even more.
I guess the term is trapped in terms of he's
developed feelings for Elizabeth. He's probably excited about that relationship.
And then Elsie pops up and is like, oh, I'm
pregnant and he's seeing, you know, sort of the complication
(21:18):
in his life.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
So now how does Norman respond?
Speaker 2 (21:22):
You know, he is, I guess in some ways, you know,
even though it's an indirect method using the letter, but
he's being upfront. But it's also possibly Norman's way of
just trying to push Elsie away, you know, hoping that well,
she'll just go away on herself, you know, by herself,
and he can, you know, continue to pursue the relationship.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
With Elizabeth m And in some ways this made me
think that Norman is as good a chance of being
a victim as Elsie is, because this would have put her,
that news would have put her in a pretty desperate situation.
You know, not only has she had premarital sex with
this man, who it sounds like is breaking all the engagement,
(22:01):
but being pregnant, she could have terminated the pregnancy many times.
That was dangerous and this is probably not something Elsie
would have done. Anyway, She's living with her parents, and
Norman is not near his parents. He is on his
own island as a chicken farmer, and I think Elizabeth
is close by. And you'll see why in a little bit.
(22:22):
So he has a woman right here versus Elsie who
lives a long train ride away, and now she's saying,
I'm pregnant and at age somewhere between twenty and twenty two.
Even though men in that time period, many of them
did take responsibility. I mean, they understood this is you know,
now I'm going to get married and this is kind
of what society expects of me. Of course, an equal
(22:45):
amount were deadbeat dads. So I don't know where Norman
stands right now, but Elsie seems to be really getting
upset over all of this.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Yeah, you know, in some ways, I think I made
an assumption that Elsie was going to be the victim.
You know, right now, with the details that you've told
in the story, you could see where Elsie would be
jealous of Elizabeth, you know, and Elsie could strike out
either at you know, Elizabeth, or could strike out at Norman. Yeah,
I could see it going either direction. And then you
(23:18):
got Elizabeth Elizabeth. You know, Norman's telling Elizabeth, hey, Elsie
is pregnant, and Elizabeth is seeing that jeopardizing her relationship
with Norman.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
So could Elizabeth go and take Elsie out? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (23:30):
So you know, right now we have classic triangle going on,
lover's triangle, and you know, each point of the triangles
are the individuals, and I can't tell you right now
who ends up being the victim, So this will be interesting.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Yeah, and remember this is Elsie is not nine months pregnant.
She is, you know, maybe a month or two pregnant.
I'm assuming she came up with this conclusion again because
she missed a period or two. So you know, she's
perfectly capable of doing anything physical. And we know women
can be just as murderous as men. So we'll see.
(24:07):
We have an outside observer who I think is very interesting.
I could do a whole episode on this woman. Her
name was Helena Normanton and she was the very first
female barrister in the United Kingdom. And a barrister, I mean, well,
do you know the difference between like a lawyer and
a barrister and any other category?
Speaker 3 (24:26):
Probably not to look at it, that would be a
Wikipedia search for me.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
So a barrister my understanding, and certainly when I lived
in London, I asked this question quite a lot too,
because I was trying to make sure I understood. A
barrister doesn't have as much contact with clients necessarily they
are a trial attorney, litigator. So very very famous woman,
so she picked up on cases that she wasn't involved
(24:53):
when she didn't represent anybody in this case, but she
was really interested in it because of Elsie. I think.
Helena said that it appeared from everything that she was
reading and studying that Elsie really seemed to be struggling
with mental health issues. So this is what she said,
and you can tell me what you think, because you know,
we are considering Elsie to be an offender, not necessarily
(25:16):
a victim. So Helena said between January and June of
nineteen twenty three. So this is a year before she
says she's getting pregnant, right, because that was November of
nineteen twenty four, she said. The year before Elsie was
under continuous medical treatment for I'm going to butcher this
(25:36):
ner asthenia. Have you heard of that before?
Speaker 3 (25:39):
No, that's not ringing a bill at all.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
A condition characterized by chronic fatigue, weakness, and other symptoms.
And this was a very nineteenth century term. So you know, irritability.
If she were pregnant, I'd say, well, welcome to my world.
I had a really hard pregnancy. But they said that
she had this sort of this listlessness, irritability, depression, loss
(26:01):
of energy, lack of self confidence, and failure in concentration.
Does any of that line up to you about either
as victimology, as Elsie as a victim or as a
potential offender in this case, well, at least.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
With the symptoms that Elsie is being described as having.
You know, it sounds like she's depressed. There's definitely nothing
that's really alarming me at this point, like there's a
psychosis going on. You know, she starting to trend towards
maybe a form of schizophrenia. You know, at her age,
you know, she's twenty two. You know, she could be
(26:36):
on the front of maybe some developing mental health issue.
But I'm not sure with those particular symptoms that it's
really diagnostic as to something that would contribute to her
striking out, you know, And this is it's kind of
a it's almost the opposite, you know, but yeah, let's
let's see how this develops.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Yeah, and this is the time period this January to
June is a time period of when you know, Norman
is on the chicken farm. At this point, they're not together,
and she's traveling back and forth to see him, and
he's creating some distance. So if she had something already
happening chemically, this would have made it worse. You know,
she's invested in this guy. This is probably her first boyfriend,
(27:20):
maybe her first relationship, and you know, now he's you know,
putting his arm out to her. So she gets this news.
So remember this is November of nineteen twenty four when
she says, I'm pregnant and he writes back, and he says, well,
this is you know, the issue. I'm with Elizabeth and
I'm really interested in her. This is what Elsie says.
(27:42):
This is her reply. She writes in a letter. This
is quote. You have absolutely broken my heart. I never
thought you were capable of such deception. Your duty is
to marry me. I have first claim on you. I
expect you to marry me as soon as possible. My
baby must have a name and another thing. I love
(28:04):
you in spite of all. That's a lot of demands,
don't you think it.
Speaker 3 (28:08):
Is a lot of demands.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
But it's also I think from this timeframe, this is
what would be expected, you know.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
And Enorma has got to.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Know this, you know, he's out there in his hut
and he's you know, got this relationship with Elizabeth. As
soon as he finds out that Elsie is pregnant, he knows, Okay,
there's a level of expectation of commitment to Elsie and
his child. That's probably going to jeopardize the relationship with
(28:36):
Elizabeth moving forward.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Yeah, you know, I wonder. I'm assuming he's not telling
Elizabeth any of this stuff. I think in at least
some cases now the man might disclose this and say
these days and say this is what's happening. We can't
believe this woman. It's probably not my child, you know.
But he, I'm assuming kept his mouth shut to Elizabeth.
We don't end up hearing from Elizabeth regarding any of
(28:59):
this stuff.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
So well, this is definitely an no shit moment for Norman.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Yeah, oh yeah, big time. And she's not here, you know,
for him to gauge. So she sends this letter and
it doesn't sound like he has time to respond, because
then she sends another letter in early December of nineteen
twenty four, and she says to him, talk about an
no shit moment. I'm coming December sixth. We're going to
(29:25):
hash this out in person. Again. He has no time
to respond or any way to get a hold of her, really,
and I'm assuming he does not have a phone, otherwise,
you know, she would have been calling him. So this
is all snail mail. She says, I'll be there December sixth.
Here's the issue also with Norman. She actually comes a
day early, so she packs up a suitcase which includes
(29:48):
infant sized dresses, and sets out for the chicken farm
to find him in his hut and to basically say,
we are doing this. You have done this to me,
and now you have a responsibility to fulfill.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Well, it's interesting that she writes that she'll be out
there December sixth and comes a day early. You know,
it was that a planned thing on her part, possibly
to have that arrival be unexpected to better assess or
even catch Norman doing things that she would be upset about.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
And I had wondered why number one she even gave
him a warning, and number two if she was afraid
that he was going to jet you know, and his
hut will be empty when she shows up and she's
trying to catch him. But I think that shows her
level of desperation. I don't think she's told her parents
that she's pregnant. They do know that she's going to
(30:43):
visit him. This has been a common thing for the
past year and a half or however long it was.
So she says to her parents, I'm leaving, I'm going
to go visit him. I don't think she's disclosed anything
about Elizabeth to them. She certainly has not said I
think he's calling off this, And so everybody's hiding stuff
from different people, which doesn't surprise me now or in
(31:05):
the nineteen twenties, but it makes this case a little
bit more complicated coming up. So now, who are you
thinking as far as offender victim knowing the situation here,
because they're both in bad situations right.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Now, you know, right now, I think it could go
either way.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
But Elizabeth is definitely taking a more aggressive approach to
the relationship.
Speaker 3 (31:28):
But she also has the bigger burden.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Yeah, you know, she's pregnant, She has the future to
think about, and Norman is in many ways trying to
move away from Elsie, you know, So she's coming out
right now. All that does is it puts Norman and
Elsie and Elizabeth at least within the same geography, and
(31:52):
so that's where I think it's going to be interesting
to see what happens.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
So we don't know yet when she arrives how it went.
And what we do know is that Elsie's parents expect
that they are going to hear from her via a letter,
snail mail letter, but two days past after she's supposed
to be there and nothing back home. Yeah, they're in London,
so they don't hear anything from her, and they said,
(32:19):
this is incredibly unusual. They live together and of course
they're very close, so they got this must have been awful, Paul.
It's all telegraphs and snail mail.
Speaker 3 (32:28):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
I'm kind of curious as to why they didn't go
out to where Norman.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
Was that just to see or where's our daughter?
Speaker 1 (32:36):
I had wondered. I don't think propriety is the right word.
But they didn't want to panic anybody, and I don't
think they wanted to come to any conclusions. Maybe there
was a delay in the mail. I don't know. But
also I don't think they know about all of the
problems between Elsie and Norman. They are very aware, of course,
of oh the emotional turmoil that she's been going through.
(32:59):
So they decide to send Norman a telegraph asking if
Elsie is there. This is his response, and I don't
quite understand part of it. He says not here open
letters with a period at the end. Open letters, can't understand.
So I don't know if she has sent him letters.
(33:19):
He is saying, she sent me letters and I've opened them,
but it's all garble. I don't know what he's saying there,
but they seemed confused. Also, what do you think?
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Yeah, that's very cryptic and Norman, you know, based off
of his you know, mechanical or electrical engineering job. I
mean he's, i'm assuming, fairly well educated and can articulate
and write well. So why is he being so cryptic
with that?
Speaker 3 (33:45):
Yeah? I really don't have a guess right now.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Okay, well let's go through the timeline just real quick.
So Elsie was supposed to go on the sixth, according
to her letters, she went on the fifth, So three
days after she was last seen by her parents in
London getting on this train to go to the chicken farm,
they get two letters that show up and they're from
Norman and they're addressed to Elsie. So she was supposed
(34:10):
to be there on the sixth, She left on the fifth.
They call him on the seventh, the eighth, these letters
show up and he says in these letters to Elsie,
where did you get to yesterday? You did not turn up?
And they were written and sent after Elsie was slated
to arrive at Norman's farm, which is concerned. Of course
(34:32):
it's concerning. I mean, her parents are freaking out about this.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
All right. We still don't know.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
You haven't told me anything about where Elsie is at
or what has happened to Elsie, you know. So it's
it's entirely possible that she never even made it to
Norman's place, right, But assuming that she did make it
to Norman's place and he has caused Elsie some harm,
these letters sound like he's staging. He is trying to
(34:58):
make it look like she's left left, you know, the farm,
and she was supposed to meet up with them, and
she hasn't arrived, and now Norman is sending these letters.
It's almost like you know, grabbing the victim's phone or
and sending a text, you know, to make it seem
like they're still alive. Yeah, you know, it's just it's
a form of staging. But again, don't know what has
(35:19):
happened to Elsie, so I'll just kind of tuck that away.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
I can't believe how many people have been caught with
the texting thing because they call a parent the wrong name,
or they misspelled I mean, I just think I don't
want to give people hints, But why would you not
go back and at least read the way all of
these people were addressed, the way they spelled their names,
like copy their style at least. But I feel like
I've read about five or six different cases where the
(35:43):
offender just sort of winged it, and it seems like
a bad idea if you're trying to set up a murderer.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
Yeah, and of course the people who are familiar with,
let's say the victim, they're going that does not sound
like our daughter or our son or whatever.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
So Elsie's parents, of course, are incredibly suspicious and very nervous.
They report her missing to the police, but the police
out there, not the London police, because they believe that
she's out there. I believe the police don't act with
very much urgency at all. I don't know why. I
think it's because when they talk to Norman, he says
(36:18):
she was crazy, she was mentally unstable. Talk to her parents.
She's been having problems for a very long time. He
has no idea what happened to her. She never showed
up when she was supposed to, and the police seemed
to generally accept this. So you know, what do you
think about that? I know the police have to make
judgment calls all the time. That's why I'm not a
(36:40):
police officer. That would scare me. I mean, you are
making judgment calls all the time that put people's lives
at risks, save their lives, all of that, and they
have decided in this case to believe this man who
said my fiance was having a really hard time. She
was supposed to show up. She never did. I don't
know where she is. You can look at if you want,
(37:00):
and they believed him.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Yeah, you know, I think with the facts upfront that
law enforcement would have been assessing you are dealing with
an adult.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
With Elsie.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
She has freedom of movement, she doesn't have to show
up at any particular location, and there's nothing about the
circumstances that would suggest that she's endangered outside of her
parents were expecting to be back home by a certain
day and she doesn't arrive. And maybe the only thing
that might be of concern are the letters from Norman
(37:31):
where he's writing to Elsie saying where are you?
Speaker 3 (37:36):
Where were you?
Speaker 2 (37:37):
You know, So now you have both the parents of
Norman saying this Elsie has disappeared. Yeah, but again, she's
twenty two years old or older.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
At this point, she's in her mid twenties.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
You know, she could have just decided to go somewhere
and cool down after finding out that Norman is having
a relationship with this Elizabeth.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Yeah, pulled herself together to figure out what she was
going to do. If she actually doesn't show up, then
his letters make sense. He's saying, you were supposed to
be here on the sixth. I don't know where you are,
and the only place he can send them to is London,
her parents' house. So let's continue on. The police know
about this, and they still don't act. There are two
gardeners who see an unfamiliar woman in Crowbro, which is
(38:20):
apparently a small village or a small town. She is
carrying a suitcase in the town, not on his farm,
but in the town. She's carrying a suitcase that her
parents say matches the description of Elsie's own suitcase. This
is on December fifth, when she's supposed to be there.
If this is Elsie, this puts her in the town,
not at the farm yet, but in the town, So
(38:42):
that gives us a little bit more information. Nobody killed
her on the train.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
Apparently, Okay, because earlier you said that Elsie arrived a
day earlier. Is that's why they know she was there
on December fifth versus the sixth? Mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
Her parents knew that she was leaving on the fifth, Okay,
that's true. Yeah, so they were the last ones to
see her. So now we've got her in the town.
And you know, you and I talk about this the
timeline and where people are, and you often ask me,
especially when we're dealing with trains and trolleys and you know,
passenger cars and stuff like that, did people see them
on the train? Where did we last see or did
(39:15):
she step off the train? And did we have a
witness that's our at the train station. So if we
believe this, and this would have been I would think legitimate.
If this is a small village or a small town,
she probably would have stood out, especially if she's carrying
a suitcase. If this is Elsie, she's in the town
now where Norman is.
Speaker 3 (39:33):
I have no reason to doubt these witnesses.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
Police still don't act on this. Make me understand why
they wouldn't act on this? Is it yet? Again? You know,
maybe she showed up Norman wasn't home, changed her mind
and you know, went off on walk about somewhere or what.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Yeah, I mean, there wasn't anything that these witnesses saw
that's concerning.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
Yeah, well she's in town with a suitcase.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
Yeah, And so it doesn't change anything from law enforcements perspective.
It's just said, Okay, well she arrived, yeah, you know,
and where is she? Well, she could have left the town.
She could have found, you know, some other place.
Speaker 3 (40:10):
To hold up in.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
And I think reasonable doubt here will be sort of
my mindset moving forward. We're looking for reasonable doubt in
this case. So a few weeks later, her poor parents,
they are not getting any information. Four weeks the police
get a tip. It's from one of Norman's neighbors, you know,
on one side or the other of the chicken farm.
(40:32):
They say that they have seen a young woman with
a suitcase walking onto his chicken farm on December fifth.
Who knows why the neighbor took so long. I mean,
you know, I don't think it was anything nefarious. I
think people don't want to get involved sometimes with this story.
Maybe they hadn't heard about it yet.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
Who knows, Yeah, you know, but that's it's several weeks later.
I mean, with a small town, you know, the rumor
mill is going to be going rampant, you know, So
is this just somebody who's decided and you know, they
may just be trying to be helpful, but how accurate
is this bit of information? Are they just inserting themselves
into the investigation because we know those types of people exist,
(41:12):
So it's kind of hard to really to truly assess
the veracity of information just based off of the statements.
It's like, Okay, where's the witness saying that they what
was their visual perspective of this woman on the suitcase?
You know, is this something that they're able to describe
aspects about this woman, her dress, the details about the suitcase.
(41:35):
That really kind of enhances the likelihood that these witnesses
actually saw Elsie and is placing Elsie on Norman's property.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
And nobody's saying she's in distress or anything like that.
So it seems very matter of fact. The police are
finally alarmed. I think her parents are staying on top
of them about this and saying this is unusual. He
told us she never showed up. Now you have a
witness who says, she's on this farm. They go to
normal and they say, let's clear this all up. Let us
(42:02):
search the farm, the chicken farm. He says. Okay. When
they're looking, they find and they don't tell me if
it's buried or not, but they find a tin with
Elsie's jewelry and watch inside. Okay, and that's bad news.
Her parents later confirmed that she was wearing these pieces
of jewelry and this watch when she left London to
(42:25):
go to the chicken farm. So that's bad news already.
It's on the property.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
Yeah, and this tin, is this something that Elsie took
with her that she would naturally put her jewelry in,
like when she's going to go to bed or is
this Norman's tin? And you know, now, for whatever reason,
Elsie has been relieved of her jewelry. And of course
it'd be very interesting to know exactly where this tin
(42:52):
was located at was it secreted away, because that would
be a harbinger of really bad news.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
Yeah, I don't know that. I think the ten is his,
but I don't know where it was. But in a second,
it's not going to matter. Sorry to tell you that
they keep searching. They're most excited about an area on
the potato patch that appears to have been freshly dug up,
(43:19):
and they dig up Elsie's suitcase. So now we have
confirmation the jewelry and the suitcase. Before you ask about
the suitcase, look at the photos. Look at those two
photos that I sent you. It just shows an overwhelming
amount of material that they had to dig through. This
is not a small farm.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
So the next photo after the photo from the road
is I'm seeing a photo where there's three men. You know,
they're dressed in very heavy looking trench coats.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
It looks foggy to me.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
Yeah, it's foggy, and it's cool. It looks like it's
probably very very cool temperatures. It looks like the land
where these men are at. I can't quite tell in
the photo if it's been dug up or overturned, but
I'm assuming this is probably the maybe the potato patch area.
There's also brushes and trees in the backdrop, you know,
(44:14):
but this isn't you know, anytime you're doing a search outdoors,
even if you have let's say a small yard surrounded
by a fence, it's a lot of work unless there's
something really obvious and of course the larger the property gets,
you know, you hope for something like freshly turned over
dirt or disturbances in the botanical material, so you go, Okay,
(44:36):
there's a spot that I want to key in on.
But because of these outdoor type scenes, this is why
we've tried to utilize different technologies to focus our efforts,
like ground penetrating radar or having the dogs get out
there and have them alert on whatever they're trained to
alert on, such as decomp dogs. Because it is I've
(44:58):
been involved in multiple searches, most notably Phil Gurrito's property,
who was the abductor of jaz Do Guard and he
had two acres of basically a junk yard and we
were trying to find evidence of other victims or evidence
associated with the crimes against Jace and it took what
I was out there for several weeks with multiple different agencies.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
Well, the first book that I wrote, which was about
the London smog of nineteen fifty two and a serial killer,
John Reginald Christy, to me illustrated that he had a
very small backyard and he had a place in London.
He buried two women there and it was totally junked out.
He had garden and stuff, but there were tools everywhere.
The weeds were really high, and the police were not
(45:42):
searching for buried women. They were searching for a mother
and her baby. And they went straight to kind of
an outdoor lavatory, and so, you know, they did not
know that there were women buried under the ground. They
were looking specifically in this laboratory, which is where they
found the mother and the child dead. What they did
(46:03):
not see, which I think people thought at the time
was just inexplicable, was Christie's dog had dug up a
femur bone of one of the women a couple of
years earlier. His fence was falling down. He strapped the
femur bone to the fence to hold up the fence,
and they walked right past it. And people criticized for him.
(46:23):
You know, I call it Keystone cops sometimes, But then
when you look at photos it is so trashed. I
totally understand how they missed a bone, you know, that
is holding up part of the fence. I mean, forget
about the psychology behind Christy doing something like that to
begin with, but I think people think it must be
easy to do his search from a small backyard. But
(46:44):
depending on the circumstances and what you're looking for, it
can be a big challenge.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
Yeah, and it's it's what your eyes can see. I
have photos of whole bodies that are on the surface,
and most people would never be able to pick the
bodies because of the other debris, you know, the branches
and the vegetation, you know. And in this case, like
with Christy with this sphemur, I mean, how many people
(47:08):
I've run across, like in law enforcement, that do not
know human anatomy. You know, they may not even recognize
that they're dealing with a bone, let alone, you know,
a significant bone out of a person's leg.
Speaker 3 (47:21):
So it is it's always a challenge.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
And that's where again, you know, here law enforcement is
they've got a suitcase, They've got a tin full of
Elsie's jewelry.
Speaker 3 (47:31):
Now it's where is Elsie? Yep?
Speaker 1 (47:35):
So the suitcase is buried, nothing inside the ten has
the jewelry in it. Not long after, in a totally
different part of the farm, these cops, Boy, this was
a lot of work. They discover a human Torso there's
a lot of decomposition happening. Because remember this has been
two or three weeks since she went missing. They waited
(47:58):
a long time with the neighbor's tip and everything, and
now did you giz up? They say to Norman, you've
got a human torso buried. We believe it's Elsie. And
he says, okay, I'll tell you where her other parts are,
so he takes her to other spots on the property.
They find her severed arms and legs, as well as
(48:18):
her head. This is where Norman's story becomes very interesting.
He readily admits that he dismembered her and buried her
and covered all the stuff up, but he says, I'm
not the one who did it. And now I'm going
to have to leave you hanging for part two. This
I told you, this chicken farm, this chicken farm, and
(48:40):
this poor woman, this poor young woman, you know. And
now we will in the second part talk a lot
about medical stuff because now we have to determine exactly
what happened to.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
Elsie, and depending on the state of her body, it
can be very difficult.
Speaker 1 (48:53):
Yep, okay, I will see you next week.
Speaker 3 (48:57):
Sounds good.
Speaker 1 (49:02):
This has been an exactly right production for.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
Our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia Dot com
slash Buried Bones sources.
Speaker 1 (49:10):
Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.
Speaker 2 (49:13):
Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson.
Speaker 1 (49:17):
Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.
Speaker 3 (49:20):
Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.
Speaker 1 (49:22):
Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hart Stark and Danielle Kramer.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at
Baried Bones Pod.
Speaker 2 (49:34):
Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded
Age story of murder and the race to decode the
criminal mind, is available now, and
Speaker 1 (49:41):
Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's Cold
Cases is also available now
I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the
last twenty five years writing about true crime.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's
worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most
compelling true crimes.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring
new insights to old mysteries.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime
cases through a twenty first century lens.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
This is buried bones.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Hey, Kate, how are you?
Speaker 1 (01:02):
I'm great, Paul, how are you?
Speaker 3 (01:04):
I am doing good? What's going on?
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Have you done very much ancestry stuff? And I don't
mean Golden State killer genealogy stuff. I mean you Paul Holes.
Have you traced any ancestors using ancestry at all?
Speaker 3 (01:18):
No? I definitely have.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Okay, did you find anything interesting?
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (01:21):
You know it's as you go back in time, the
family spreads out, if that makes any sense. My dad's
side of the family. You know, the Hole's surname. When
you go back several centuries. We actually came from England
and it wasn't holes, it was whole as in singular,
which was interesting to me because I worked with a
da by the name of Bob Hole and we always
(01:43):
just kind of chuckled because you never run across people
with the whole surname or whole surname, and good chance
Bob and I are probably related. Unfortunately he passed away
quite a few years ago now, but you know, going
back on my dad's mom's side, that's a very Germanic lineage.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
You know.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Also finding you know, a town in Germany where at
least the Wolf side of the family originated out of,
you know, so things like that. It's pretty cool to
get that kind of information about your your ancestors.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Have you ever uploaded your DNA or are you against that?
Speaker 2 (02:18):
When I was trying to figure out how to do
the genealogy with a Golden State killer case, my parents
had actually tested themselves at Ancestry, and you can't upload
a profile from some other place into Ancestry. You have
to send your DNA to Ancestry to have it go
into Ancestry, but they allow you to download those profiles,
(02:38):
so I downloaded both my parents' profiles and put it
into a website called jedmatch, And jed match is the
one that you can upload profiles if you've been tested
at twenty three and meters or ancestry, et cetera. And
so I did that and of course got the you know,
the various distant relatives that share a percentage of their
DNA with my parents. And then ultimately I put my
(03:00):
DNA up there because I want to be able to
help cases, you know, And so I opted in so
law enforcement can use my DNA in case, you know,
somebody that's related to me is responsible for a crime.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Well, I'm relieved you're not a hypocrite. First of all,
jet Match is the one that law enforcement are able
to use directly, Right do they have to get like
subpoenas or anything like that.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
So you have two websites that law enforcement can use,
and that is jetmatch and Jetmatch. The users have to
explicitly opt in to allow law enforcement to search their profiles.
If they don't opt in, they can still utilize jet
Match for genealogy purposes, and their profiles are not searchable
(03:42):
for law enforcement. The other database law enforcement uses is
Family tree DNA, and that's something that is now being
managed by my employer author. The other websites like ancestry
and twenty three and meters do not permit law enforcement
to search their databases.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Got it, Well, this was all a big lead up
to a funny story. I think it's funny, at least
from the listener's last viewer. Her name's Ellen, and she
seems lovely. She emailed me very early, or I received
it very early, a couple of weeks ago, and it
was like a I searched ancestry. I'm trying to figure
out what happened to my I think it was her
(04:19):
great great grandfather. He came from Sweden, went to New
Orleans and then sort of vanished. And the family rumor,
and we know all about family rumors here, the family
rumor was that he was murdered and then tossed off
a doc in New Orleans. So I said, okay, let
me dig around because a lot of people, you know,
(04:39):
they'll look on ancestry and they'll do the general search.
But I subscribe to newspapers dot Com. Huge shout out
to newspapers dot com. Love him, love him, love him.
I've been using it. For I think probably about ten years.
So I just hopped on and this guy's first name
is Axel, and then there was a middle name and
then a last name that were way too complicated for
me to even pronounce here. So I looked nothing, nothing
(05:02):
from this guy with the first and named Axel middle
last name in newspapers dot com, which was really unusual
for me. I usually can dig up something. And then
she said, this is when he was born, and you
know all of this and this is where. So what
she knew from ancestry was where he was born in Sweden,
the year and the approximate birthday, and that was basically it.
(05:23):
She couldn't find immigration papers or anything like that. So
from my time writing American Sherlock, I was going crazy
trying to figure out why my forensic scientist Oscar Heinrich
couldn't stand his father. He was so mad at his father,
and I couldn't figure out what was happening. And about
two weeks before my deadline to send American Sherlock to
(05:43):
my editor, I was futson around at three in the
morning like I do sometimes, and I misspelled his father's
name in newspapers dot com and up pops all this information.
His father took his own life because of the family finances.
And that's why I mean all of this, just because
they spelled his last name wrong. So I misspelled this
(06:04):
guy Axel's middle name, and up pops a treasure trove
of information. Most importantly, the first thing I saw was
a prison photo of this guy. Oh really, I know,
you said. You think that he came to America in
nineteen seventeen or maybe before. He was in prison in
Sweden in nineteen fourteen. I don't know why, but it
(06:26):
was a you know, very menacing photo. When I sent
it to her, and because of the last it was
literally one letter. It was the letter R that I changed.
She was able to trace everything. And she said, I
don't think he was tossed off a dog. I think
he died at sea because he served in the I
think she said the Navy, maybe, so all of it.
It was one letter that changed all of this and
sort of I think she was able to put together
(06:48):
some pieces about this part of the family, and the
family still talks about this, and this happened in you know,
nineteen fifteen, nineteen sixteen. So when I say it's important,
the work we do is important to people. Even though
this is generations back, the family's still talking about it
over Thanksgiving. They're talking about this guy. It has been
(07:09):
dead for more than one hundred years. So please to
the listeners. I don't do this for many people. I
think I was just bored this morning when I did it,
just like, okay, whatever, what the hell help is it?
But it was so funny to just see this prison photo.
She wasn't phased by that, but you know, I mean
that little bit. And I know you probably know this
from law enforcement too. Just you know, people when they're
(07:30):
using a different name, and man, you can be really stymied.
I was so frustrated. But then all of a sudden,
I get all of this information with just one letter,
which was crazy for me.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Well, and I've experienced that myself when I was, you know,
doing the genealogy and would rely on newspapers dot com
in order to flesh out family trees. And what what
I have found is, you know newspapers, you know, they
scan those old papers and then they optical character recognition
OCR and some letters or some fonts. It doesn't do
(08:02):
a good job. So I have run into the same
situation where now I'm trying different permutations of the spelling
of the name, and then we'll have success. And I
don't know if newspapers dot Com allows for wild card searching,
where you can put like the asterisk in for it
could be any letter at this location in the name.
If they don't do that, that is actually very helpful
(08:23):
because of this ocr problem that I've run across.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Well, it was a huge deal to me with American Sherlock,
because you know, it answered so many questions that were
important to me in the book. But I think for Ellen,
she was pleased to receive all less information. And I
knew something was wrong because everybody, even in the eighteen hundreds,
everybody showed up in the newspaper one way or the other.
And I think I found his subsequent children or grandchildren
(08:50):
or something because that exact kind of name with a
different middle name was popping up. But anyway, I thought
that was a funny story, just about searching for family members.
And you know, if you thought that people complain about
the inaccuracy of newspapers, now you should try doing what
I do in reading eighteen hundreds newspapers. Man, I mean,
just the wildest names.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Every no for sure, you know, but it really just underscores,
you know, how technology is giving access to data that
before you'd have to go into a library and flip
through paper copies of newspapers if they even had, you know,
the addition that you needed.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Yeah, Mike Rafficha, I've done that many times too, and yeah,
so this was this was quite an experience. It was
another good reminder of just trying to stick with something,
you know, sort of the perseverance. It wasn't my family,
but it was fun to do.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
No, very cool.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Well, talk about media, we are getting rend to step
into a media circus here with the story that we're
going to do. It's going to be a two parter
because it's a pretty big story and it was a
really big deal when it happened. Where we're heading is
the nineteen twenties, almost mid nineteen twenties England, which sounds
very romantic to me. It was not, I think at
(10:03):
this time period, certainly World War One. This story I
think really gets to the heart of relationships and trying
to sort out what happened to our victim, because it's
a big question mark for me right now.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
All right, So England, that's one of your favorite.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Places it is, So get some tea and a crumpet
if you've ever had you had a crumpet before. I
love them, love them, No, I don't think, so I'll
make you some some time. Okay, let's set the scene. Okay,
Like I said, the case is in England and it's
the early nineteen twenties, and we have two main players
here and we have to sort out. This is a
(10:43):
I feel like the smallest cast of characters we might
have worked with here, but we'll see what you think.
And then a very very very very famous pathologist that
you'll recognize immediately because we've talked about them before. So
this is an intriguing case. So one of our main
people is named Norman Thorn, and in the nineteen twenties,
very early nineteen twenties, he meets a young woman named
(11:04):
Elsie Cameron and she's a typist. So Norman and Elsie
and they meet at church. They are now falling in love.
And Norman, just so we know about kind of ages
and stuff, Norman's about twenty and Elsie is about two
years older. So at this point, if you want to
go ahead and open up your photos, you can see
(11:26):
a photo of the two of them. I will say
I am struck by. I feel like they both look
a little older than twenty and twenty two.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Okay, so I'm looking at I'm assuming this is this
is a Norman and Elsie.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
Norman is seated, Elsie is standing.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
It's just like a typical family, you know, portrait with
this couple.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
Norm's got a three.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Piece suit on Elsie's you know, just got a dress.
And yeah, I would not have expected that they were
as young as they are by looking at their photos.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
They do look more mature.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
But you know, that's what it seems like if you
ever look at like I look at my parents' yearbooks,
and everybody in there, even though they're.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
High schoolers, look like they're in their thirties.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
What do you think that was? Like just a hard
life or I.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
Don't know, it seems consistent too, you know.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Yeah, absolutely. You know when we do these stories from
the eighteen hundreds, and it's always when they're on a farm,
boy they look rough, and I know it's sun exposure
and just hard work and stuff. But I sort of
picked up on that they both look a little older
than what they are. But anyway, so we've got Norman
and we've got Elsie and they meet at church they
fall in love. So in nineteen twenty one, Norman is working.
(12:39):
He's either an engineer or kind of an electrician in
training one or the other. But he's he has a
good job, it sounds like. But he loses that job
in nineteen twenty one and no word on why, but
it doesn't sound like anything controversial. He loses this job
so he has to get back on his feet. So
his parents want to help him out. He's close with
his parents and they give him some land in an
(13:02):
area called crowbro which is in East Sussex, and this
is about a train ride away from London. He is
not particularly close physically to Elsie. She's staying with her parents.
She's also remember quite young, but they're able to see
each other. So this guy who had gone from being
an engineer or an electrician now starts his life over
(13:26):
as a chicken farmer, which seems pretty different. Yes, So
he is living in a tiny hut on the property.
It is eighty five square feet. Oh wow, my cottage
is I think about one seventy five square feet, so
you know he's living in half the space of where
I am right now, which is very small. I was
(13:47):
going to ask you this. You know, I lived in
a very small space when I lived in New York.
I was in the Greenwich Village. I was, you know,
literally right on where NYU is, and my bathroom was
so small, was literally in a closet. My bathroom was
so small that you could pee and brush your teeth
at the same time because the sink was right there.
(14:10):
That's probably Tami. And then our kitchen was also in
a closet, and you could have your foot on the
bathtub actually in the bathtub, all at the same time
if you needed to. So have you lived in a
small space before?
Speaker 3 (14:21):
You know, the.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Smallest space was when I was living in It's actually
a relatively upscale town called Wamut Creek in the East Bay.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Oh yeah, I love Walnut Creek.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Yeah, it's an amazing town. And I rented a small
studio which it did have a small kitchen. It had
just a single room that doubled as the bedroom and
then a small bathroom. Now I couldn't pee and brush
my teeth in this bathroom, nor would I want to
try to do that.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
But I never tried. Paul I'm just saying that that's
how small it was.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
So that's probably in terms of me individually, that's probably
the smallest space that I've personally lived in.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Norman's in a very small space, so eighty five square feet,
and I've been calling it a cottage. I don't think
it is. They're calling it the hut. He's not making
very much money as a chicken farmer. It doesn't sound
like he had that much experience to begin with, but
he's making a go of it because I don't think
he feels like he has much of a choice. Why
don't I show you what the farm looks like. So
(15:25):
if you scroll down past that photo of Norman and Elsie,
you'll see the farm on the second page, and you'll
see the hut. I think that's the hut. Tell me
what you see?
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Yeah, you know, So this is a photo.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
It looks like it's taken from the perspective of a
road and possibly just a dirt road, and then there's
a gate that in essence is in between the road
and where the structures are, and behind this gate appears
to be just a drive area that goes back to
(15:59):
where now I see, I mean, it looks like a
log cabin, you know, from this photo, it's it's not
more much more than that, Yeah, you know, surrounded by
some land and some equipment.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Yeah, I mean it looks and you see the chicken
coops kind of around. It looks like there might be
one attached to the cabin thing.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
What do you think I can see that? Yeah, I
think that's right.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Yeah, this is pretty small. So, you know, this seems
like a big difference, lifestyle difference for Norman. But like
I said, he's making a go of it. He and
Elsie are still together and actually a year after they
sort of you know, separate, physically separate, they get engaged
by nineteen twenty two. But it seems like this distance
(16:39):
is sort of getting to Norman and he is starting
to cool on the relationship by you know, shortly after
when they get engaged. So I think Elsie is feeling
like there's a growing disconnect between the two of them,
and it sounds like Elsie was really in love with him,
but Norman was keeping his distance alone a little bit
(17:00):
to keep the relationship alive. Elsie takes the train to
visit Norman much more often than he goes to visit her,
so November of nineteen twenty four. I mean, remember that
this has been a year and a half that she's
been trying to keep this relationship going because she really
loves him and they're both, you know, part of a church.
It sounded like actually that they were both Sunday school
(17:23):
teachers at one point, so having a relationship with him
and getting married is really important to her. In November
of nineteen twenty four, Elsie writes to Norman that she's pregnant.
So the way this would have gone in quote unquote
proper society in this time period is they would not
have had sex. Then he asked her to marry him,
(17:44):
and then quite possibly she said okay, because you're committing
to me. So that's how I think we get around
the whole idea that you know, she seemed devout, you know,
maybe a devout Christian. But then then, of course, this
is where we've talked about the Heartbahm lawsuits that come
out when a man says, marry me, and then they
have sex and then he's tired of her, and then
he leaves and she's sort of quote unquote ruined. So
(18:07):
she says that she's pregnant. I mean, I don't know
how many times I can say this that the number
one reason pregnant women die is murder and postpartum also,
so you know already, even though I haven't told you
who the victim is, we have somebody who is at risk.
He's distanced himself from her, and now he believes she's pregnant.
So what do you think so far?
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Well, do you know how far along she is in
the pregnancy?
Speaker 1 (18:32):
She does not tell him, but it doesn't sound like
her parents know. And I would assume that she, you know,
noticed that she wasn't getting her period anymore, and that
was the conclusion. I don't hear anything about a doctor,
her going to a doctor, and you know, confirming it
that way. So she's making some assumptions. It doesn't sound
(18:55):
like very far along though.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
I guess, you know, some of the questions that I
pop into my mind because I know this is going
to end tragically for Elsie in all likelihood. You know,
if she's indicating to Norman that she's pregnant, does he
have concern that the child is not his? Which from
a victimology standpoint, doesn't sound like Elsie would necessarily be
(19:17):
having sex with some other man. You know, so that's
probably a little bit unlikely. But does Norman feel that,
you know, as he's growing more and more distance in
the relationship, is Elsie using the pregnancy sort of to
trap him?
Speaker 3 (19:30):
You know?
Speaker 2 (19:30):
So if Elsie ultimately ends up murdered, then of course
there's some concern about what Norman's motive may be based
off of his stance in this relationship and how he's
feeling about Elsie.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Absolutely, and you know, when you were saying if Norman's
concerned about her sleeping with somebody else, I get the
impression that he is ready to cut ties with Elsie.
He probably would have been happy if she had been
with somebody else. But I also don't know the egos
of men in the nineteen twenties. But I think you're
right kind of based on her in general. Like that
photo that I showed you look almost like a church photo,
(20:03):
like somebody took it posing outside of the church. I'm
not seeing Elsie sleeping around, but you're right, who knows.
So she is freaking out when she finds out she's pregnant.
She says to Norman, I want to get married as
soon as possible, which, of course makes sense because this
would not be a good thing socially for her, and
I'm assuming her parents would not approve of this, and
(20:25):
she lives with them. But Norman is characteristically of Norman,
very wishy washy with her, and he says that I've
got some news for you. Instead of saying this face
to face, he sends her a letter, which to me
is like a low budget text. He sends her a
letter that says, I know you say you're pregnant, but
I'm seeing another woman and her name is Elizabeth Caldecott.
(20:48):
He says, Elizabeth thinks I am to marry her, and
I have a strong feeling for her. So now what's happening?
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Well, now you see where Norman is probably feeling even more.
I guess the term is trapped in terms of he's
developed feelings for Elizabeth. He's probably excited about that relationship.
And then Elsie pops up and is like, oh, I'm
pregnant and he's seeing, you know, sort of the complication
(21:18):
in his life.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
So now how does Norman respond?
Speaker 2 (21:22):
You know, he is, I guess in some ways, you know,
even though it's an indirect method using the letter, but
he's being upfront. But it's also possibly Norman's way of
just trying to push Elsie away, you know, hoping that well,
she'll just go away on herself, you know, by herself,
and he can, you know, continue to pursue the relationship.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
With Elizabeth m And in some ways this made me
think that Norman is as good a chance of being
a victim as Elsie is, because this would have put her,
that news would have put her in a pretty desperate situation.
You know, not only has she had premarital sex with
this man, who it sounds like is breaking all the engagement,
(22:01):
but being pregnant, she could have terminated the pregnancy many times.
That was dangerous and this is probably not something Elsie
would have done. Anyway, She's living with her parents, and
Norman is not near his parents. He is on his
own island as a chicken farmer, and I think Elizabeth
is close by. And you'll see why in a little bit.
(22:22):
So he has a woman right here versus Elsie who
lives a long train ride away, and now she's saying,
I'm pregnant and at age somewhere between twenty and twenty two.
Even though men in that time period, many of them
did take responsibility. I mean, they understood this is you know,
now I'm going to get married and this is kind
of what society expects of me. Of course, an equal
(22:45):
amount were deadbeat dads. So I don't know where Norman
stands right now, but Elsie seems to be really getting
upset over all of this.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Yeah, you know, in some ways, I think I made
an assumption that Elsie was going to be the victim.
You know, right now, with the details that you've told
in the story, you could see where Elsie would be
jealous of Elizabeth, you know, and Elsie could strike out
either at you know, Elizabeth, or could strike out at Norman. Yeah,
I could see it going either direction. And then you
(23:18):
got Elizabeth Elizabeth. You know, Norman's telling Elizabeth, hey, Elsie
is pregnant, and Elizabeth is seeing that jeopardizing her relationship
with Norman.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
So could Elizabeth go and take Elsie out? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (23:30):
So you know, right now we have classic triangle going on,
lover's triangle, and you know, each point of the triangles
are the individuals, and I can't tell you right now
who ends up being the victim, So this will be interesting.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Yeah, and remember this is Elsie is not nine months pregnant.
She is, you know, maybe a month or two pregnant.
I'm assuming she came up with this conclusion again because
she missed a period or two. So you know, she's
perfectly capable of doing anything physical. And we know women
can be just as murderous as men. So we'll see.
(24:07):
We have an outside observer who I think is very interesting.
I could do a whole episode on this woman. Her
name was Helena Normanton and she was the very first
female barrister in the United Kingdom. And a barrister, I mean, well,
do you know the difference between like a lawyer and
a barrister and any other category?
Speaker 3 (24:26):
Probably not to look at it, that would be a
Wikipedia search for me.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
So a barrister my understanding, and certainly when I lived
in London, I asked this question quite a lot too,
because I was trying to make sure I understood. A
barrister doesn't have as much contact with clients necessarily they
are a trial attorney, litigator. So very very famous woman,
so she picked up on cases that she wasn't involved
(24:53):
when she didn't represent anybody in this case, but she
was really interested in it because of Elsie. I think.
Helena said that it appeared from everything that she was
reading and studying that Elsie really seemed to be struggling
with mental health issues. So this is what she said,
and you can tell me what you think, because you know,
we are considering Elsie to be an offender, not necessarily
(25:16):
a victim. So Helena said between January and June of
nineteen twenty three. So this is a year before she
says she's getting pregnant, right, because that was November of
nineteen twenty four, she said. The year before Elsie was
under continuous medical treatment for I'm going to butcher this
(25:36):
ner asthenia. Have you heard of that before?
Speaker 3 (25:39):
No, that's not ringing a bill at all.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
A condition characterized by chronic fatigue, weakness, and other symptoms.
And this was a very nineteenth century term. So you know, irritability.
If she were pregnant, I'd say, well, welcome to my world.
I had a really hard pregnancy. But they said that
she had this sort of this listlessness, irritability, depression, loss
(26:01):
of energy, lack of self confidence, and failure in concentration.
Does any of that line up to you about either
as victimology, as Elsie as a victim or as a
potential offender in this case, well, at least.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
With the symptoms that Elsie is being described as having.
You know, it sounds like she's depressed. There's definitely nothing
that's really alarming me at this point, like there's a
psychosis going on. You know, she starting to trend towards
maybe a form of schizophrenia. You know, at her age,
you know, she's twenty two. You know, she could be
(26:36):
on the front of maybe some developing mental health issue.
But I'm not sure with those particular symptoms that it's
really diagnostic as to something that would contribute to her
striking out, you know, And this is it's kind of
a it's almost the opposite, you know, but yeah, let's
let's see how this develops.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Yeah, and this is the time period this January to
June is a time period of when you know, Norman
is on the chicken farm. At this point, they're not together,
and she's traveling back and forth to see him, and
he's creating some distance. So if she had something already
happening chemically, this would have made it worse. You know,
she's invested in this guy. This is probably her first boyfriend,
(27:20):
maybe her first relationship, and you know, now he's you know,
putting his arm out to her. So she gets this news.
So remember this is November of nineteen twenty four when
she says, I'm pregnant and he writes back, and he says, well,
this is you know, the issue. I'm with Elizabeth and
I'm really interested in her. This is what Elsie says.
(27:42):
This is her reply. She writes in a letter. This
is quote. You have absolutely broken my heart. I never
thought you were capable of such deception. Your duty is
to marry me. I have first claim on you. I
expect you to marry me as soon as possible. My
baby must have a name and another thing. I love
(28:04):
you in spite of all. That's a lot of demands,
don't you think it.
Speaker 3 (28:08):
Is a lot of demands.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
But it's also I think from this timeframe, this is
what would be expected, you know.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
And Enorma has got to.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Know this, you know, he's out there in his hut
and he's you know, got this relationship with Elizabeth. As
soon as he finds out that Elsie is pregnant, he knows, Okay,
there's a level of expectation of commitment to Elsie and
his child. That's probably going to jeopardize the relationship with
(28:36):
Elizabeth moving forward.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Yeah, you know, I wonder. I'm assuming he's not telling
Elizabeth any of this stuff. I think in at least
some cases now the man might disclose this and say
these days and say this is what's happening. We can't
believe this woman. It's probably not my child, you know.
But he, I'm assuming kept his mouth shut to Elizabeth.
We don't end up hearing from Elizabeth regarding any of
(28:59):
this stuff.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
So well, this is definitely an no shit moment for Norman.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Yeah, oh yeah, big time. And she's not here, you know,
for him to gauge. So she sends this letter and
it doesn't sound like he has time to respond, because
then she sends another letter in early December of nineteen
twenty four, and she says to him, talk about an
no shit moment. I'm coming December sixth. We're going to
(29:25):
hash this out in person. Again. He has no time
to respond or any way to get a hold of her, really,
and I'm assuming he does not have a phone, otherwise,
you know, she would have been calling him. So this
is all snail mail. She says, I'll be there December sixth.
Here's the issue also with Norman. She actually comes a
day early, so she packs up a suitcase which includes
(29:48):
infant sized dresses, and sets out for the chicken farm
to find him in his hut and to basically say,
we are doing this. You have done this to me,
and now you have a responsibility to fulfill.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Well, it's interesting that she writes that she'll be out
there December sixth and comes a day early. You know,
it was that a planned thing on her part, possibly
to have that arrival be unexpected to better assess or
even catch Norman doing things that she would be upset about.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
And I had wondered why number one she even gave
him a warning, and number two if she was afraid
that he was going to jet you know, and his
hut will be empty when she shows up and she's
trying to catch him. But I think that shows her
level of desperation. I don't think she's told her parents
that she's pregnant. They do know that she's going to
(30:43):
visit him. This has been a common thing for the
past year and a half or however long it was.
So she says to her parents, I'm leaving, I'm going
to go visit him. I don't think she's disclosed anything
about Elizabeth to them. She certainly has not said I
think he's calling off this, And so everybody's hiding stuff
from different people, which doesn't surprise me now or in
(31:05):
the nineteen twenties, but it makes this case a little
bit more complicated coming up. So now, who are you
thinking as far as offender victim knowing the situation here,
because they're both in bad situations right.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Now, you know, right now, I think it could go
either way.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
But Elizabeth is definitely taking a more aggressive approach to
the relationship.
Speaker 3 (31:28):
But she also has the bigger burden.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Yeah, you know, she's pregnant, She has the future to
think about, and Norman is in many ways trying to
move away from Elsie, you know, So she's coming out
right now. All that does is it puts Norman and
Elsie and Elizabeth at least within the same geography, and
(31:52):
so that's where I think it's going to be interesting
to see what happens.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
So we don't know yet when she arrives how it went.
And what we do know is that Elsie's parents expect
that they are going to hear from her via a letter,
snail mail letter, but two days past after she's supposed
to be there and nothing back home. Yeah, they're in London,
so they don't hear anything from her, and they said,
(32:19):
this is incredibly unusual. They live together and of course
they're very close, so they got this must have been awful, Paul.
It's all telegraphs and snail mail.
Speaker 3 (32:28):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
I'm kind of curious as to why they didn't go
out to where Norman.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
Was that just to see or where's our daughter?
Speaker 1 (32:36):
I had wondered. I don't think propriety is the right word.
But they didn't want to panic anybody, and I don't
think they wanted to come to any conclusions. Maybe there
was a delay in the mail. I don't know. But
also I don't think they know about all of the
problems between Elsie and Norman. They are very aware, of course,
of oh the emotional turmoil that she's been going through.
(32:59):
So they decide to send Norman a telegraph asking if
Elsie is there. This is his response, and I don't
quite understand part of it. He says not here open
letters with a period at the end. Open letters, can't understand.
So I don't know if she has sent him letters.
(33:19):
He is saying, she sent me letters and I've opened them,
but it's all garble. I don't know what he's saying there,
but they seemed confused. Also, what do you think?
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Yeah, that's very cryptic and Norman, you know, based off
of his you know, mechanical or electrical engineering job. I
mean he's, i'm assuming, fairly well educated and can articulate
and write well. So why is he being so cryptic
with that?
Speaker 3 (33:45):
Yeah? I really don't have a guess right now.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Okay, well let's go through the timeline just real quick.
So Elsie was supposed to go on the sixth, according
to her letters, she went on the fifth, So three
days after she was last seen by her parents in
London getting on this train to go to the chicken farm,
they get two letters that show up and they're from
Norman and they're addressed to Elsie. So she was supposed
(34:10):
to be there on the sixth, She left on the fifth.
They call him on the seventh, the eighth, these letters
show up and he says in these letters to Elsie,
where did you get to yesterday? You did not turn up?
And they were written and sent after Elsie was slated
to arrive at Norman's farm, which is concerned. Of course
(34:32):
it's concerning. I mean, her parents are freaking out about this.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
All right. We still don't know.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
You haven't told me anything about where Elsie is at
or what has happened to Elsie, you know. So it's
it's entirely possible that she never even made it to
Norman's place, right, But assuming that she did make it
to Norman's place and he has caused Elsie some harm,
these letters sound like he's staging. He is trying to
(34:58):
make it look like she's left left, you know, the farm,
and she was supposed to meet up with them, and
she hasn't arrived, and now Norman is sending these letters.
It's almost like you know, grabbing the victim's phone or
and sending a text, you know, to make it seem
like they're still alive. Yeah, you know, it's just it's
a form of staging. But again, don't know what has
(35:19):
happened to Elsie, so I'll just kind of tuck that away.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
I can't believe how many people have been caught with
the texting thing because they call a parent the wrong name,
or they misspelled I mean, I just think I don't
want to give people hints, But why would you not
go back and at least read the way all of
these people were addressed, the way they spelled their names,
like copy their style at least. But I feel like
I've read about five or six different cases where the
(35:43):
offender just sort of winged it, and it seems like
a bad idea if you're trying to set up a murderer.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
Yeah, and of course the people who are familiar with,
let's say the victim, they're going that does not sound
like our daughter or our son or whatever.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
So Elsie's parents, of course, are incredibly suspicious and very nervous.
They report her missing to the police, but the police
out there, not the London police, because they believe that
she's out there. I believe the police don't act with
very much urgency at all. I don't know why. I
think it's because when they talk to Norman, he says
(36:18):
she was crazy, she was mentally unstable. Talk to her parents.
She's been having problems for a very long time. He
has no idea what happened to her. She never showed
up when she was supposed to, and the police seemed
to generally accept this. So you know, what do you
think about that? I know the police have to make
judgment calls all the time. That's why I'm not a
(36:40):
police officer. That would scare me. I mean, you are
making judgment calls all the time that put people's lives
at risks, save their lives, all of that, and they
have decided in this case to believe this man who
said my fiance was having a really hard time. She
was supposed to show up. She never did. I don't
know where she is. You can look at if you want,
(37:00):
and they believed him.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Yeah, you know, I think with the facts upfront that
law enforcement would have been assessing you are dealing with
an adult.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
With Elsie.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
She has freedom of movement, she doesn't have to show
up at any particular location, and there's nothing about the
circumstances that would suggest that she's endangered outside of her
parents were expecting to be back home by a certain
day and she doesn't arrive. And maybe the only thing
that might be of concern are the letters from Norman
(37:31):
where he's writing to Elsie saying where are you?
Speaker 3 (37:36):
Where were you?
Speaker 2 (37:37):
You know, So now you have both the parents of
Norman saying this Elsie has disappeared. Yeah, but again, she's
twenty two years old or older.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
At this point, she's in her mid twenties.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
You know, she could have just decided to go somewhere
and cool down after finding out that Norman is having
a relationship with this Elizabeth.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Yeah, pulled herself together to figure out what she was
going to do. If she actually doesn't show up, then
his letters make sense. He's saying, you were supposed to
be here on the sixth. I don't know where you are,
and the only place he can send them to is London,
her parents' house. So let's continue on. The police know
about this, and they still don't act. There are two
gardeners who see an unfamiliar woman in Crowbro, which is
(38:20):
apparently a small village or a small town. She is
carrying a suitcase in the town, not on his farm,
but in the town. She's carrying a suitcase that her
parents say matches the description of Elsie's own suitcase. This
is on December fifth, when she's supposed to be there.
If this is Elsie, this puts her in the town,
not at the farm yet, but in the town, So
(38:42):
that gives us a little bit more information. Nobody killed
her on the train.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
Apparently, Okay, because earlier you said that Elsie arrived a
day earlier. Is that's why they know she was there
on December fifth versus the sixth? Mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
Her parents knew that she was leaving on the fifth, Okay,
that's true. Yeah, so they were the last ones to
see her. So now we've got her in the town.
And you know, you and I talk about this the
timeline and where people are, and you often ask me,
especially when we're dealing with trains and trolleys and you know,
passenger cars and stuff like that, did people see them
on the train? Where did we last see or did
(39:15):
she step off the train? And did we have a
witness that's our at the train station. So if we
believe this, and this would have been I would think legitimate.
If this is a small village or a small town,
she probably would have stood out, especially if she's carrying
a suitcase. If this is Elsie, she's in the town
now where Norman is.
Speaker 3 (39:33):
I have no reason to doubt these witnesses.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
Police still don't act on this. Make me understand why
they wouldn't act on this? Is it yet? Again? You know,
maybe she showed up Norman wasn't home, changed her mind
and you know, went off on walk about somewhere or what.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Yeah, I mean, there wasn't anything that these witnesses saw
that's concerning.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
Yeah, well she's in town with a suitcase.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
Yeah, And so it doesn't change anything from law enforcements perspective.
It's just said, Okay, well she arrived, yeah, you know,
and where is she? Well, she could have left the town.
She could have found, you know, some other place.
Speaker 3 (40:10):
To hold up in.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
And I think reasonable doubt here will be sort of
my mindset moving forward. We're looking for reasonable doubt in
this case. So a few weeks later, her poor parents,
they are not getting any information. Four weeks the police
get a tip. It's from one of Norman's neighbors, you know,
on one side or the other of the chicken farm.
(40:32):
They say that they have seen a young woman with
a suitcase walking onto his chicken farm on December fifth.
Who knows why the neighbor took so long. I mean,
you know, I don't think it was anything nefarious. I
think people don't want to get involved sometimes with this story.
Maybe they hadn't heard about it yet.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
Who knows, Yeah, you know, but that's it's several weeks later.
I mean, with a small town, you know, the rumor
mill is going to be going rampant, you know, So
is this just somebody who's decided and you know, they
may just be trying to be helpful, but how accurate
is this bit of information? Are they just inserting themselves
into the investigation because we know those types of people exist,
(41:12):
So it's kind of hard to really to truly assess
the veracity of information just based off of the statements.
It's like, Okay, where's the witness saying that they what
was their visual perspective of this woman on the suitcase?
You know, is this something that they're able to describe
aspects about this woman, her dress, the details about the suitcase.
(41:35):
That really kind of enhances the likelihood that these witnesses
actually saw Elsie and is placing Elsie on Norman's property.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
And nobody's saying she's in distress or anything like that.
So it seems very matter of fact. The police are
finally alarmed. I think her parents are staying on top
of them about this and saying this is unusual. He
told us she never showed up. Now you have a
witness who says, she's on this farm. They go to
normal and they say, let's clear this all up. Let us
(42:02):
search the farm, the chicken farm. He says. Okay. When
they're looking, they find and they don't tell me if
it's buried or not, but they find a tin with
Elsie's jewelry and watch inside. Okay, and that's bad news.
Her parents later confirmed that she was wearing these pieces
of jewelry and this watch when she left London to
(42:25):
go to the chicken farm. So that's bad news already.
It's on the property.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
Yeah, and this tin, is this something that Elsie took
with her that she would naturally put her jewelry in,
like when she's going to go to bed or is
this Norman's tin? And you know, now, for whatever reason,
Elsie has been relieved of her jewelry. And of course
it'd be very interesting to know exactly where this tin
(42:52):
was located at was it secreted away, because that would
be a harbinger of really bad news.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
Yeah, I don't know that. I think the ten is his,
but I don't know where it was. But in a second,
it's not going to matter. Sorry to tell you that
they keep searching. They're most excited about an area on
the potato patch that appears to have been freshly dug up,
(43:19):
and they dig up Elsie's suitcase. So now we have
confirmation the jewelry and the suitcase. Before you ask about
the suitcase, look at the photos. Look at those two
photos that I sent you. It just shows an overwhelming
amount of material that they had to dig through. This
is not a small farm.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
So the next photo after the photo from the road
is I'm seeing a photo where there's three men. You know,
they're dressed in very heavy looking trench coats.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
It looks foggy to me.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
Yeah, it's foggy, and it's cool. It looks like it's
probably very very cool temperatures. It looks like the land
where these men are at. I can't quite tell in
the photo if it's been dug up or overturned, but
I'm assuming this is probably the maybe the potato patch area.
There's also brushes and trees in the backdrop, you know,
(44:14):
but this isn't you know, anytime you're doing a search outdoors,
even if you have let's say a small yard surrounded
by a fence, it's a lot of work unless there's
something really obvious and of course the larger the property gets,
you know, you hope for something like freshly turned over
dirt or disturbances in the botanical material, so you go, Okay,
(44:36):
there's a spot that I want to key in on.
But because of these outdoor type scenes, this is why
we've tried to utilize different technologies to focus our efforts,
like ground penetrating radar or having the dogs get out
there and have them alert on whatever they're trained to
alert on, such as decomp dogs. Because it is I've
(44:58):
been involved in multiple searches, most notably Phil Gurrito's property,
who was the abductor of jaz Do Guard and he
had two acres of basically a junk yard and we
were trying to find evidence of other victims or evidence
associated with the crimes against Jace and it took what
I was out there for several weeks with multiple different agencies.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
Well, the first book that I wrote, which was about
the London smog of nineteen fifty two and a serial killer,
John Reginald Christy, to me illustrated that he had a
very small backyard and he had a place in London.
He buried two women there and it was totally junked out.
He had garden and stuff, but there were tools everywhere.
The weeds were really high, and the police were not
(45:42):
searching for buried women. They were searching for a mother
and her baby. And they went straight to kind of
an outdoor lavatory, and so, you know, they did not
know that there were women buried under the ground. They
were looking specifically in this laboratory, which is where they
found the mother and the child dead. What they did
(46:03):
not see, which I think people thought at the time
was just inexplicable, was Christie's dog had dug up a
femur bone of one of the women a couple of
years earlier. His fence was falling down. He strapped the
femur bone to the fence to hold up the fence,
and they walked right past it. And people criticized for him.
(46:23):
You know, I call it Keystone cops sometimes, But then
when you look at photos it is so trashed. I
totally understand how they missed a bone, you know, that
is holding up part of the fence. I mean, forget
about the psychology behind Christy doing something like that to
begin with, but I think people think it must be
easy to do his search from a small backyard. But
(46:44):
depending on the circumstances and what you're looking for, it
can be a big challenge.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
Yeah, and it's it's what your eyes can see. I
have photos of whole bodies that are on the surface,
and most people would never be able to pick the
bodies because of the other debris, you know, the branches
and the vegetation, you know. And in this case, like
with Christy with this sphemur, I mean, how many people
(47:08):
I've run across, like in law enforcement, that do not
know human anatomy. You know, they may not even recognize
that they're dealing with a bone, let alone, you know,
a significant bone out of a person's leg.
Speaker 3 (47:21):
So it is it's always a challenge.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
And that's where again, you know, here law enforcement is
they've got a suitcase, They've got a tin full of
Elsie's jewelry.
Speaker 3 (47:31):
Now it's where is Elsie? Yep?
Speaker 1 (47:35):
So the suitcase is buried, nothing inside the ten has
the jewelry in it. Not long after, in a totally
different part of the farm, these cops, Boy, this was
a lot of work. They discover a human Torso there's
a lot of decomposition happening. Because remember this has been
two or three weeks since she went missing. They waited
(47:58):
a long time with the neighbor's tip and everything, and
now did you giz up? They say to Norman, you've
got a human torso buried. We believe it's Elsie. And
he says, okay, I'll tell you where her other parts are,
so he takes her to other spots on the property.
They find her severed arms and legs, as well as
(48:18):
her head. This is where Norman's story becomes very interesting.
He readily admits that he dismembered her and buried her
and covered all the stuff up, but he says, I'm
not the one who did it. And now I'm going
to have to leave you hanging for part two. This
I told you, this chicken farm, this chicken farm, and
(48:40):
this poor woman, this poor young woman, you know. And
now we will in the second part talk a lot
about medical stuff because now we have to determine exactly
what happened to.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
Elsie, and depending on the state of her body, it
can be very difficult.
Speaker 1 (48:53):
Yep, okay, I will see you next week.
Speaker 3 (48:57):
Sounds good.
Speaker 1 (49:02):
This has been an exactly right production for.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
Our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia Dot com
slash Buried Bones sources.
Speaker 1 (49:10):
Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.
Speaker 2 (49:13):
Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson.
Speaker 1 (49:17):
Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.
Speaker 3 (49:20):
Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.
Speaker 1 (49:22):
Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hart Stark and Danielle Kramer.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at
Baried Bones Pod.
Speaker 2 (49:34):
Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded
Age story of murder and the race to decode the
criminal mind, is available now, and
Speaker 1 (49:41):
Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's Cold
Cases is also available now
Hosts And Creators
Kate Winkler Dawson
Paul Holes
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