December 3, 2025 • 66 mins
In this week's episode, the first part of a two-parter, Paul and Kate head to frigid 1959 Russia where a team of adventuring students goes missing while their tent is left in shambles. But as investigators start to recover bodies, a grim scene is slowly pieced together.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the
last twenty five years writing about true crime.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's
worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most
compelling true crimes.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring
new insights to old mysteries.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime
cases through a twenty first century lens.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
This is buried Bones.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
I'm doing really well. And here's why. This is one
of my favorite days of the year. Okay, because it's
my twins' birthday.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Oh sure, Okay, isn't It's sweet?
Speaker 1 (01:14):
I mean, I love my kids so much, and I
love it that I'm in December. There in December. They're Sagittarius,
I'm Capricorn. I love having a winter birthday with them.
It's so sweet.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yeah, Now, you've got a lot of things going on
in December. Then with the holidays, it kind of starts.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
With Halloween with me, we go Halloween. It gets hectic
and then you know, because very weeks later ish you
have Thanksgiving and then the girl's birthday, and then we
have you know, Christmas and my birthdays right after that
in New Year's and so it's wild, it's crazy, but
they love it. Yeah, they like having a birthday together.
(01:52):
Of course you don't have a choice when you're a twin,
but they like having the birthday together. Kid. So tell
me first how your kids. I know you have two
older ones, two younger ones. How did they like to
celebrate birthdays any special way? They parties the whole way through.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
No, you know, I would say the younger kids ended
up having more of a group of friends that they
would have over like the special friends. My older kids
not so much, you know, they would just have one
or two friends, but not as big of a group
as the younger kids.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Well, they used to do that. They have similar friend groups,
and so they would have sometimes like a big party,
you know, so they would do that sometimes. Now we
sort of just do family stuff and then one will
go with the one best friend and the other we'll
go with the other best friend. But one of my
girls started doing something interesting. Last year. She asked if
she could go to her favorite restaurant, which is the steakhouse.
(02:46):
She's really big on seafood and steak and all that stuff.
And I said, okay, do you want me to take you?
And she said no. And I said do you want
to go with like your best friend? And she said no?
And I said who you going with? And she wants
to go by herself. And so I almost felt like
last year I had to call the restaurant and say,
I've got this kid. She's going to have her credit card.
Just let her do what she wants to do. It's authorized.
(03:07):
And she wants to do that again this year. So
she's she goes and she has what she wants to have,
and she'll get like this little molten you know, chocolate
cake for free, and then she'll come home and we'll
do a little family celebration. But that's what she wants
to listen to her music and eat an expensive.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Steak restaurant kind of adult.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Yeah, she likes space. She's a kid that needs space,
and so she really I don't know, that's just the
ideal way that she would do it. Is that what
you what would you do for your birthday.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Ideally, I'm probably very similar to her. I really don't
acknowledge my birthday. Yeah either, you know, after you have
so many of them, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
So many Paul holes.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
It's a reminder that's, you know, there's less life left
than what has been lived.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
So I told you what my mom says. She's she
just turned eighty two, and she said, but I am
gonna shout it from the rooftops every year because how
many people don't make it to eighty two. So I'm trying.
I am trying to adopt that. I think that's a
very positive attitude, unlike you're every year I'm closer to death.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Yeah, maybe I need to change my mindset a little bit.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
No, I mean I understand that we also in my
family like to tell really good stories, and this is
not a story I would tell my kids. That one
I'm getting ready to tell you. But it fits into
our winter theme and it's going to be really really interesting.
It's a Cold War mystery. I think we had some
conspiracy stuff, but not specifically about the Cold War. And
(04:40):
this is a really big story. So it's a two
parter and I for sure need your help because there's
a lot of snow avalanche talk like what is happening
in this scene? And I know nothing about the mountains,
so I think you're gonna have some good insight.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Oh okay, well I'll do my best.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Okay, let's set the scene. There are so many photos
that go along with this that I had to send
you several different packets. So I'll call for the Okay,
let's go to the diagram of this and that for
you to be able to look and you can just condense,
you know, what you're looking at, what's the basic summary.
But I'm happily in an area nineteen fifty nine where
(05:20):
there were a lot of photos available. So I think
that'll please you. I know it always does. You try
to pretend, you try to play it off and go,
oh no, I love these eighteen hundreds and seventeen hundred stories,
but secretly you would like more stories. I bet with photos.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
I'm always more comfortable with photos. But you know, we
make it work.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Ye, all right, here we go. So this is set
in Russia, Siberia, so please, please please everybody, just you know,
look at this with some grace. When I try to
go through some of these Russian names, I'll do the
best I can, so it might take a hot second
for me to make sure I'm getting the pronouncer and
YouTube Paul, make sure I'm getting the pronouncer right. We
(05:59):
are in the mountains. We start in the mountains and
we into the mountains on this one, so we're above
the tree line on height ten seventy nine in the
ural mountains. And this is an area that's barren and
rounded and the range runs north to south, which is
the marking the border of Siberia and dividing Europe from Asia. Okay,
(06:25):
and this is a place that people like to explore.
And this is nineteen fifty nine, so the atmosphere already.
I know you're going to want to talk about trying
to figure out mysteries and murders in outdoor environments, and
snow must be one of the biggest challenge. Which is
worse do you think a certain circumstances Is it rain
or is it snow or is it both?
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Ye? You know, to be frank, I've never processed a
crime scene in the snow. Coming out of the Bay Area, California.
It's right. I've definitely reviewed crime scenes you know that occurred,
you know where where it had snowed and there, you
know what I was fascinated when I was starting to see,
you know, crime scene images as you see so much
(07:06):
more because let's just say shoe impressions. You can start
to see where the offenders has walked, you know, and
kind of there's more information to reconstruct what happened if
it's you know, still somewhat pristine. If you will, rain sucks.
(07:27):
I will tell you that processing a crime scene in
the rain, you're losing evidence as time goes on. You
can't really take notes. The photos flash bounces off the
rain drops, so your photos turn out looking like crap.
So I would say, if it's a good snow it's
still cold enough to where the snow is solid, that's
(07:50):
probably better than that having to process a crime scene
in the rain.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Well, this is cold, cold snow, so maybe that's good
news for us. It's February twenty sixth, nineteen fifty nine,
and the temperatures have been hovering around zero degrees fahrenheit
during the day and then at night. I think it's funny. Allison,
who's our crack researcher here, she says, dip dip as
low as negative thirty degrees okay at night? What would
(08:16):
be the coldest that Colorado and the mountains would get.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Do you think you started this out by saying that
this is above the tree line, So that tells me
that we're at a pretty serious elevation. I'm guessing, you know,
roughly around ten thousand feet, and when you get out
into the Rockies in the front range, you start to
see the tree line once you get to roughly that
elevation and it gets cold. You know, I have Pike's
(08:41):
Peak in my rear yard almost at fourteen thousand feet,
and it's so much colder up at that elevation than
at where I live, which is sixty five hundred feet.
So you know, I'm sure there's places, you know, at
higher elevations in the Rockies that are going to match
this location.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Out here in Siberia, well, the snow is five feet deep.
Oh and earlier in the month, listen to this. Earlier
in the month, the winds had whipped through the pass
at sixty five miles per hour.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Okay, So we have a search party who is going
into this environment, and it's a student along with some
teacher volunteers from a technical university and they are searching
for nine people associated with the university who are all
professional explorer hikers and who have been in this area before.
(09:34):
So it is seven men and two women, and they're
all incredibly experienced, I mean, all kinds of certifications, whatever
they needed to do. They've done really really difficult things
in the past. But they haven't heard from them, and
so there's a search party that goes out. What will
be important later on is part of the search party
is a group of indigenous people called the Mansies. So
(09:55):
you know they're helping out because they know the area also,
and they had set out six days earlier than what
we're talking about. So on February twentieth, the search party
left and they have been tracing the ski tracks that
they believe belong to this little expedition as what I'll
call them, and the tracks brought them to this gentle
(10:17):
thirty degree slope. They immediately come to the first alarming
thing that they find. And I will sort of disclose
this to say why we are doing this story is
that we have these missing hikers. They will be found.
The question is what happened? And it has been this
incredible mystery ever since nineteen fifty nine. So here's the
(10:42):
first clue in what is to me one of the
more concerning clues. Okay, So they're at this gentle thirty
degree slope. The search team looks down in a shallow
dugout that is meant to shelter hikers from the wind,
and they find a tent that they believe belongs to
the expedition team. And it is slashed and partially collapsed. Okay,
(11:05):
and there are no hikers inside. Let me get through
this little bit and then we're gonna look at the
tent and kind of you can tell me what you think.
So I'll have diagrams of the tint and what the
slashes look like, and then I'll have photos of the
tent and what those are. So there are no hikers.
There's one tent pole that sticks above the snow. This
tent was constructed by stitching two canvases together, and the
(11:27):
tent is six feet by thirteen feet seems pretty big.
It's designed to hang on trees, but it could also
be sort of hitched up on a pair of skis
in an emergency, several skis, and there is a working
flashlight that's balanced on the top edge of the tent.
There's a pair of skis that's popped up in the snow. Nearby.
(11:49):
There are eight other pairs of skis that are well
organized under the tent, and there's an ice axe and
a jacket that's nearby. And it looks like all nine
people in the expedition you know, were there at one point.
So there's nine pairs of skis there for the nine hikers.
(12:10):
And then you've got the slashes and the tent, and
I could tell you more details about what's actually inside
the tent.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
At least with what you've told me, it sounds like
this expedition team, who are very experienced with the conditions,
they all made it to this location safely, and they
were able to set up a tent, all the skis
are organized. They recognize that this dugout was probably the
best shelter, you know. Maybe they saw inclement weather coming in,
(12:37):
or this was just going to be how far that
they were going to be going on that particular day.
So they get to this location and everything is normal,
and then something happens that causes this you know, them
to you know again, do they leave voluntarily, you know,
or does something else happen, you know, And then of
course this the you know, the damage to the tent
(12:59):
where I'm you know, my immediate thought is, okay, well
you mentioned the wind, you know, ripping through at sixty
five miles an hour previously. You know, do you have
damage to the tent as a result of weather. Do
you have damage to the tent as a result of
you know, large animal? You know, are there bears in
this location? And then of course do we have maybe
(13:23):
another group that had bad intent that cross paths with
this expeditionary team. So I'm kind of curious to see
how this unfolds.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Okay, yes, I am too, because this, like I said,
is a big, big mystery. Okay, let me tell you.
This is a lot of details, so just let me
plow through all the details of what's actually inside what
sounds like as a giant tent. So inside, hiking gear
is neatly arranged. To the left of the entrance, there
are seven pairs of felt boots and six pairs of
(13:54):
ski boots. To the right, there are cooking provisions, two
large axes, one small in a leather case, and three
finished knives, all purpose belt knives with a curved cutting edge,
and one is actually still in the sheath. There are
two buckets, two cooking pots, a suspended stove, bags of biscuits,
(14:15):
pork loin. There's alcohol, they think it's probably vodka. There's
hiking gear and clothes in the center of the tent,
two more pairs of ski boots and nine backpacks containing
nine parkas, eight quilted jackets, one fur coat. And then
there's I mean, this is a lot of stuff. I
had no idea I should have known. Four pairs of
shell pants. I mean, just a lot of clothing in there.
(14:36):
There's three compasses, one pocket watch, and several blankets, and
there's just food and provisions, and there's a first aid
kit in there. And it feels like they were sort
of caught in the moment. You know, it's not a
chaotic scene. It's the tent and the missing hikers that
are problematic. I have information about where they think they
might have gone, because there are what you and I
(14:58):
had talked about earlier. There are our footprints leaving, shoe
prints leaving the tent, and there's also the damage to
the tent. Do you have a preference on what we
talk about first?
Speaker 2 (15:08):
The damage to the tent is what I'm kind of
keying in on. I mean everything inside this tent. I
mean this expeditionary team. They were well prepared and this tent.
It's something that took a while to set up and
get all of those materials inside of that tent in
an organized fashion. So it seems like that they just
(15:30):
decided this is where we're going to be staying for
a bit, you know, So what caused them to leave
without this material? Yeah, because a lot of this material.
You know that you've got the boots and the coats
and everything else. This is all survival gear that you're
going to need at this elevation, at these temperatures, and
(15:50):
they're not going to voluntarily just leave that stuff behind.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Even more concerning to me was there is It's almost
like I had mentioned before, a frozen moment in time,
because they have this stuff called salow, which is a
high calorie white pork fat and it's a Slavic delicacy.
It is sliced and it's ready to eat, and it's
frozen on the table, so it hasn't been covered. It's
(16:18):
almost like somebody had just cut it and was getting
ready to eat it, and there's a jug of cocoa
that had been mixed with water, and that jug is
iced over at this point, and there is a stack
of wood right next to the fire like kind of
put into the stove. A stack of wood right next
to the stove, as if somebody was just getting ready
to load it in. And they have a journal and
(16:40):
they have cameras and individual diaries that are right there.
And then they only had about ten bucks, seven hundred
and ten roubles in there, and so it's almost like
something happened where they were living in it and they
immediately left.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Yeah, it's odd.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
I getting ready to say that a lot.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Yeah, you know. Okay, what's the size of this team again?
Speaker 1 (17:03):
How many they're pro hikers who are also students. There's
nine of them, nine and I have photos of them
and them in the snow, in the actual snow, you know,
chronicling this trip. They found their cameras and so you
can see what the snow looks like. And I also
have the boot impressions in the snow. Okay, so you
(17:23):
tell me where you want to go now.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Yeah, let's take a look at that scene, which.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
One Okay, if we look at what I called hikers
in fun snow. That's what the snow looks like. But
I don't think I have the photos of the tent.
These are like scene photos that they took themselves. Ok
These are not evidence photos. So if you open it,
you'll see the nine members of the team and then
(17:52):
you'll kind of just see their fun They were documenting
their lives on this trip.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Now they look young.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
They are students at this technical school, Okay, and I'll
tell you a little bit more about them once we
get there, since I know we need some victimology and stuff.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
You know. The first photo that I'm seeing, once I
get past the portraits of the team, it looks like
the team is in the back of a you know,
some sort of utility truck, like not quite a pickup truck,
and has the wooden railing that they're leaning against. But
they're all dressed appropriately. You know, they've got heavy jackets
(18:29):
with hoods and heavy mittens on, you know, the kind
of the fingerless gloves, which are you know, really good
for you know, the the frigid temperatures because you're able
to keep more warmth inside those mittens. And then it
appears in the front that there is some some sort
(18:51):
of carrying pack you know, that's on on the on
the floor, so I'm sure that contains a lot of
the supplies. And then the next foat shows three of
them up against these struct the structure that's constructed out
of a tree trunk and then some horizontal branches. And
(19:12):
so there's three of these tree trunks and each tree
trunk has three horizontal branches on you know, nailed to them,
and it appears like you know, some of the skis
are being leaned up against these structures. I haven't seen
this type of structure before.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
They're using it to clean the skis off. That's the
purpose of that structure is so they can kind of
sit and clean everything on, putting their boots too.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
I'm sure, yeah, that makes sense. You know, it's clever.
And there's more that are you know, further in the backdrop.
But I'm also taking a look at where they're doing this.
They're still below the tree lined. You have some you know,
whether they're aspens you know that are tall but sparse.
(19:56):
It's not like a super wooded area where they're located.
And then scrolling down the next photo is a photo
of them where they're now hiking. They got their snow
shoes or their skis on, with their ski poles, very
heavily garbed up with weather weather clothing, you know, the
(20:18):
heavy heavy jackets and the pant like the pants, and
it appears that at the time of this photo, the
snow is blowing, you know, so you know they've got
some weather that they are having to hike through. And
then the next photo is showing a tent with two
of the hikers kind of around this tent, and I
(20:41):
can see the ski poles that have been stuck in
the snow. They've rigged up a way to hold this
tent up. Now, this tent is only even though you
mentioned the tent was sixteen by thirteen feet, it's only
maybe three three feet tall.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
And that might be a different tint because they had
several tints from what I what I've read, and I
actually did find photos of the collapsed tents, so you
can have a better idea of that too.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Okay, so maybe they had multiple tents available to them
versus all of them going into the one one structure, yep,
you know. And then the last photo, you know, they're
just cross cross country skiing. That's what it looks like,
you know, they're following in each other's tracks, probably taking
turns as to who's in the lead, because that's going
to be the most challenging part of this. And it
(21:37):
looks beautiful. You know, You've got pristine snow, you've got
mountains in the backdrop with the trees, and maybe there's
a frozen lake up ahead, you know, so you know
this is it's nature. They're out there, but it does
look like it's fairly remote. I don't see any you know,
human made structures in this photograph at all.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
No, I'm gonna show you some photographs. I'm actually gonna
send them to your real quick, Paul.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Okay, yeah, so I'm initially looking at an overall photograph.
This is what we would how we would call this
this type of photo from a crime scene where it's
capturing basically the entire scene. In the middle, there's first
it's just snow all around where this collapsed tent is at.
(22:25):
There's no other structures. It appears that there there is
a peak of a mountain in the backdrop, and the
tent itself really just looks like you know, dark fabric
on top of the snow. And then this is where
the skis have been stuck vertically in the snow around
(22:47):
where this tent is, So those skis, I'm assuming possibly
helped hold up the tent in some capacity.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Yeah, because they don't have trees around, so I think
they either had to use skis or trees. And then
they have I think they had some tent poles with them.
I'll have to look again though.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
And then the other photo, which is a close up
of this collapsed tent, So this photo is showing the
tent that is not even sure how I'm going to
describe this, you know, basically the tents collapsed down there
appears to be a fair amount of heavy snow deposit
(23:24):
on the top surface, covering visibility on the top of
this tent. In the foreground, the closest to the person
taking the photograph, you can see where there's either you know,
what do you call them a ski you know what
you use as you're skiing, but you a ski pole,
(23:46):
So you know, it appears that part of the fabric
is is covering something like a ski pole, you know
where maybe that was the entrance into the tent, and
there's some cordage that's probably secure bring that part of
the tent to the ski pole or whatever it is
that's holding it up towards the rear. You know, there's
(24:07):
there's several skis that are vertical, you know, that probably
were there to help hold this tent up at some point.
And I'm also seeing some ski poles in the foreground
that appear to be mostly buried. The snow is heavily disturbed,
and this is where is this the condition when the
you know, the the search team, you know, first arrives,
(24:31):
or has there been a lot of disturbance to the
scene before this photograph is taken. So right now just
we don't I don't know how to interpret what I'm seeing,
but you know, it's heavy deposits of snow, chunks of
snow on top of this tent. And I'm surprised at that.
I thought, okay, with you know, over time, with weather blowing,
you'd start to see, you know, the snow just naturally
(24:53):
deposit on top of the tent. Even in this collapse state,
this almost looks like there's been chunks of no thrown
on top of the tent, maybe in an effort to
hide it, like somebody is trying to bury it but
doesn't quite get it completely. Buried well.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
And to give you a little bit more context, So
they're using the diaries. The search teams are using the
diaries and later on investigators to figure out how far
people got. So remember they have journals and diaries that
they found in the tent. And it's confirmed that on
January thirty first, they had reached this area. They dug
(25:34):
a snowpit, unloaded their heaviest gear in it, and the
next day they planned so February first, they planned to
ski toward the mountain Pass. But that's it. That's the
last entry where the journals were found at that location.
They had been missing or whatever happens to them starting
(25:54):
February first, and it is now February twenty sixth. Yeah,
I could also explain the snow. How much is on there?
You know.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
I just think the configuration of the snow looks wrong
to me for just being done by weather, you know.
And those journals are absolutely key from you know, a
temporal standpoint, as you said, they made it. They said
they made it out there on January thirty first, they're
going to go ski on February first, and there's no
other entries into the journals after that. Ye, And you know,
(26:25):
of course i'd be wanting to take a look at
the journals. You know, each person probably has their own
frequency that they're putting entries in. So do some of
these journals have entries every day and that it just
stops or is it more sporadic to where you know,
maybe there's additional days where there is a normal activity
(26:47):
occurring at this location and they just never made another
entry just because they weren't doing it on a daily basis.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Let's talk about the tent or do you want to
talk about them leaving? Which which do you prefer?
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Well, since I just described the tent, let's get more
details about the tent.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Okay, So the tent, it looks like you can go
ahead and bring up your photos and while you're doing that,
I'll go through this. The tent and its contents, you know,
were eventually collected from the slope and rebuilt inside police
station in ural. This is where kind of the main
investigation will start. A seamstress mending police uniforms remarks the
(27:26):
tent slashes which have been made from the inside, and
an expert confirms these were slashes made from the inside.
So you know, there's different information about the tent and
how big the slashes were. They might have it on
the diargy. Do they have it on the diagrams?
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Yeah, So this first it's a sketch. However, it's a
sketch that's been made using a straight edge, so it's
very neat. And the configuration of this tent is like
an a frame. So theabric the way the tent was
(28:02):
designed in order to be put up would be, you know,
in essence, you have a long ridge line from front
to back with an entry that's shaped like a triangle
in the front where people can go in and out
of this tent, and then you would have to have
various mechanisms such as the skis ski poles to hold
(28:25):
up this tent from the inside, as well as potentially
you know, using twine at both ends to hold up
the ridge line. On the sloped face of this tent,
there is a drawing of what I'm assuming is the
(28:46):
damage to the fabric, and it's significant in terms of
the size of the damage. For example, there is a
red arrow labeled number one, which is pointing at sort
of a linear defect on this tent roof, and there's
(29:10):
a number thirty one with two arrows emanating out of
it that goes along the length of that defect. So
I'm interpreting that is thirty one units log. I don't
know if it's centimeters. I don't know if it's inches,
but it's thirty one log. And then directly above that
is more of a curve of linear defect with a
(29:34):
red number two red arrow pointing at it, and that
defect has eighty nine units marking it. And then you
have large areas of fabric just in the middle on
this roof side, which they're indicating with cross hatching. What
I'm going to assume that there's missing fabric and there's
(29:58):
no real measurements cross how large this is, but it appears,
if this is relatively done to scale, appears to be
a significant amount of fabric that has been removed, but
not in a very regular fashion. There's a lot of
irregularities to some of the margins of this damage, and
(30:19):
there appears to be a very long tongue of fabric
in the middle of this that is still remaining. And
so it's almost as if you have two rectangular openings
and then a flap that was left behind. And then
there's the measurement roughly forty two inches or forty two
(30:41):
units wide for that fabric in the middle of this damage.
And then further down there appears to be a linear
defect that goes all the way from the top of
the tent down to where the tent would have been
secured using cordage to tense spikes in the snow, and
(31:05):
there appears to be some damage removed. So you know,
this is not you know, the amount of fabric that
has been in essence cut out from the roof of
this tent is significant. Why would somebody do that? That
the way that that's drawn, that's not done by an animal.
(31:28):
I don't see this occurring as a result of weather,
you know, So why is somebody doing this? And you
said that experts claimed it was done from the.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Inside inside, Yeah, does it look like it would have
been a knife would have had to have done it,
or some kind of cutting instrument would have to have
done it.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Well, at least you know, without seeing a photo, you know,
how straight the artist is drawing some of these defects
tends to just yes, you've got a sharp edge, you know,
knife scissors that is cutting parts of it, and then
(32:08):
possibly where it's irregular is where the fabric is bunched
up as they're trying to cut through that fabric. So
in some ways you can see where somebody is just
real quickly doing these linear cuts and then now is
balling the fabric up and then cutting the swaths of
cloth or fabric out from the roof. You know, these
(32:29):
photos are showing the you know, more close up of
the damage to the tent fabric, so I can start
to take a look and see, yes, there's no question
that you're dealing with, you know, a sharp edged you know,
chances are it's a knife. You know. However, the way
that some of the fabric has you know, these little pieces,
(32:53):
there's there is an aspect of not only cutting, but
possibly just tearing maybe even where you know, you start,
you know, with the knife and then you just kind
of more rapidly pull the fabric apart and tear it apart.
You know, they've got some good close up photos with
with scale showing that, you know, some of the fabric
(33:15):
was cleanly cut in this this close up photo, but
some of it appears that it also was pulled apart
like it you know, they started it and then now
it's just getting it completely apart through a tearing action.
There is one photo showing that side of the tent,
you know, where there's appears to be a fair amount
(33:35):
of fabric missing, you know, and it dawns on me,
it's very possible that whoever did this was using this
fabric to bundle something up, you know, like a little
to make a carrying case, or you know, depending on
how much of that tent. I mean, it's possible it
(33:56):
was used as a you know, like a wrap a
body in, you know. So that seems to make sense
to me. It's not random whoever did this. They're just
not doing this for fun, you know. It's not like
you know, sometimes you'll get some cases where you have
an offender that just wants to damage. It's like a
(34:16):
form of vandalism. I don't think that's what's going on here.
I think that there's maybe a functional aspect to why
the offender is if I want to, I'm not even
sure I can say a fender. But why, you know,
the person who is cutting the fabric, I think they
want to use the fabric for something.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Okay, So if we come out of the tent, where
we're looking next is do we have any boot prints.
We don't, we have footprints. They find a chain of
eight or nine sets of footprints leading from the tent
toward the tree line less than a mile away. So
the people who made those were either barefoot or wearing socks.
(34:56):
They said, one person wore a single ski boot. But
they're orderly, so there's not that sort of I don't know,
kicking up snow like they're running. They're orderly, and you
know they're kind of going maybe next to each other
or single file, I can't quite tell. But these footprints
disappear a quarter of a mile from the tent or so.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
You think about where this is happening. You know, you're
talking zero degrees down to what was it negative thirty degrees.
They're in snow, the snow is five feet deep, and
these people are not voluntarily walking out of that tent
without their boots on. They're being forced and that basically
(35:39):
they were told move. And now how does that happen
to a team of nine. Well, now you've probably got
a group with guns saying you guys are are marching.
Now you think how fast frostbite would set in without
you know, the heavy boots on, without the proper clothing
(36:00):
this location. I'm curious, you know, where these footprints stop,
where their tracks like snowbobill tracks. Was there, you know,
some sort of vehicle, you know, any indication that there's
a vehicle at this location that could pick this team up,
whether the team is still alive or it's killed at
(36:20):
this location, or is there any bloodstains at this location,
et cetera. You know, but they just didn't disappear, you know,
unless you know, the investigators failed to dig into the
snow and there's frozen bodies at this location that just
got covered with snow over time.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Well, let me tell you, you know, moving forward, they
follow these footprints and then they lose them about a
quarter of a mile from the tent.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
And do they do they lose them because just snow
covers them up.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
It looks like it.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
No, you know, but I think even though you know,
they may not have a full trail. You know, this
team was marched to a location and it's was that
location found where their body's recovered or again, you know,
where they transported somewhere else.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
So the next day they resume the search. At about
eleven o'clock, they discover the remains of a fire at
the base of a tall ceedar on that tree line's edge,
and it's about a little more than a mile, maybe
about a mile from the tent that have been slashed.
They say, based on the char of the wood, the
fire appears to have been burned for about ninety minutes.
(37:30):
The branches of the fir and birch trees within a
sixty five foot perimeter of the cedar have been cut,
and they think with a finished knife, which is the
knife I described for you, kind of a curved knife
that they would use. The cedars dry branches, which were
twelve to seventeen feet off the ground have also been
broken off. And let me just tell you it's at
(37:51):
the scene. So there's various garments, including a half burned
brown sock, a green checkered shirt with eight roubles in
the pocket, and a woman's handkerchief, and they're all strewn
around by the fire. And there are bodies there. Oh okay,
you know, we do know details about the trip, and
we know details about the school they went to and
(38:12):
who all these people are. Would you rather talk about
the trip when we get to kind of this first
set of bodies and go backwards and say this is
how the trip went, and do you want to hear
about these people as they come up or how do
you want to do it?
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Well, I think you know, with the finding of the bodies,
you know that will give me better insight as to Okay,
what what was the offender's motive? If there is an offender,
and then we can kind of get back and maybe
start going into the victimology.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Okay, they find initially two bodies. The first person is
twenty one year old Uri da ro Shinko, but I'm
calling him Muri. And then there's a twenty three year
old named Georgie Yuri Krevu Nished and he went by Creva.
So with Ury, he is lying face down with his
(39:07):
head turned to the left. And remember this is six
to ten feet from the fire what once was a fire.
His arms are bent at the elbows and his fingers
are clenched. His hair is very dirty and tangled with
moss and fur needles and burned near his right temple
in the occipital region. Under his body are three or
(39:30):
four cedar branches. And then I have information on what
he's wearing. And lucky for you, we don't have autopsy photos,
but we have very detailed autopsy diagrams of all of this.
So do you want to see the diagram?
Speaker 2 (39:44):
First?
Speaker 1 (39:44):
You want to hear about what he's wearing and some
more of his injuries.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
Yeah, tell me what they can see at the crime scene.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
Okay, he stripped to his undergarments. So he is wearing
a light green sleeveless cotton undershirt, a blue and red
checkered shirt, blue sat and briefs, and blue knitted long underwear.
The long underwear is missing a thigh panel. It's been
torn or possibly cut with a knife. On his left foot,
(40:10):
he wears three layers of socks, two light brown ones
knitted socks and then one white woolen sock. And on
his right foot he wears two layers of cotton and
wool socks. The outer socks on both feet are burned
to tatters. Last thing about ury. His ears, lips, and
nose are covered in blood. His upper lip is swollen.
(40:34):
There are multiple small abrasions and bruises that cover his
arms and legs. His fingertips and toes are dark purple
in color, and the toes on his left foot are burned.
So we can talk about creva or you can look
at the diagram of Uri and then we can go
on to Creva.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Let me look at the diagram of Uri. Here, the
hemorrhaging and swelling to his nose, his mouth, you know,
this all appears that he's being beat in the face.
He's he's taking blows, you know, possibly being punched. The
extensive abrasions to his arms, even his hands, you know,
around the knuckles. They notice a significant swelling, you know,
(41:17):
as if he possibly was, you know, striking something himself,
maybe fighting back against whoever's beating him. You know. Part
of the the complexity of evaluating the injuries is you're
dealing with probably crusty snow. You've got the branches that
his body is on. You know, some of this could
be a result of movement against you know, this hard
(41:40):
snow or the branches. However, it appears that you know,
he's he's probably being beat. You know. The dark purple
tissue at the tips of his fingers and toes suggests
frostbite to me, which it wouldn't be surprising and it
would probably happen really quickly out there if he's been
(42:00):
marched a mile dressed like this out to this particular location. Yeah,
I think you're going to start to see frostbite setting
in the burned hair as well as you know, it
appears that there's some other singing or soot from the fire.
Was he located closer to the fire at some point,
(42:22):
you know, and then his body was moved? You know,
who knows what's going on there. So yeah, at this point,
we don't know if Yuri died just as a result
of exposure, or if you know, he did you know,
receive a fatal injury or multiple fatal injuries. But it
does appear that he isn't he is interacting. There's violence
(42:44):
being inflicted on Yuri, you know. So that's now okay
tells me that at least with Uri, and I'm going
to say with probably the rest of the team, this
isn't where they ended up, you know, taking too much
vodka and some sort of psychedelic and just you know,
with doubt and just you know, walked out into the elements.
Goes back to what I in my initial assessment, they
(43:06):
were forced out, and at least with Uri and Creva,
they were forced out this location of the campfire, whether
that campfire pre existed and they were marched there or
you know, the campfire was started once they got to
that location. Also, the way that campfire, you're talking about
dry branches being you know, taken off of the surrounding
(43:29):
trees tells me that you are dealing with somebody very
experienced out in nature and recognized where the dry wood
is versus maybe some of the other sources of fuel
are still too moist in order to be able to
start a fire. They had a means to start a fire,
you know, whether that be you know, you know, you're
talking nineteen fifty nine, so they could have had pretty
(43:51):
much any modern contraption to start a fire, or they're
skilled enough to be able to start a fire using
what's available, you know, with flint, et cetera. So in
some ways you're dealing with bushcraft or you know, survivalist
type of training.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
Well, let me tell you just a tiny bit about
since Youurie's our first victim here, I'll tell you just
very briefly about the group. So, you know, this was
a sporting club, expedition club at a university that was
a technical university, to which I thought, okay, what does
that mean. They were all students or recent alumni in
(44:34):
and their majors were or their jobs were in economics,
nuclear physics, machine building, radio, and civil engineering. There was
one named Sasha who we haven't talked about yet, and
he was not part of that school. He came along.
This was an initially a ten person expedition, not a
nine person, but one person had to drop out because
(44:54):
of illness, so it turned into a nine person team. Here.
As I had said before, they're all experienced and they
were trained to become nuclear power and weapon and radio
and aerospace engineers. So that's where we start when we
talk about URI.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
Yeah, and what was the purpose of them going out
to this location?
Speaker 1 (45:16):
They loved it. It wasn't a school thing. It was
they were part of a sporting club where they would
do stuff like this. I mean, I have a lot
of photos of them doing other expeditions, you know, I'm
sure this was. It was a sports club trekking expedition
from specifically that originated from this technical college. But not
everybody went there. Okay, so this was a fun trip
(45:37):
and stuff they've done before.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
Yeah, So they didn't have a mission going out there that.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
They said, and not that we know of.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
Right.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
So we have another person who I mentioned to you,
and he was Uri Creva, and so we call him Creva.
And he is found close by to Uri. He's lying
face up. His right arm is above his head, his
left arm is bent so that his wrist lays across
his chest. His right leg is extended, his left leg
(46:08):
is bent at the knee, and just like you, he
stripped to his undergarments. He is wearing a worn white
cotton shirt, a red blue and black checkered shirt, blue
satin swimming trunks, and long underwear. These two have been
torn asunder. I mean they're torn around all this stuff.
The entire bottom half of the left leg is missing.
(46:31):
It's ragged edge is charred. His right foot is bare.
On his left foot, he wears a burned and tattered
brown sock. And then I have injuries for him and
of a diagram.
Speaker 2 (46:43):
Yeah, now, I think some of the missing fabric from
the victim's clothing that may have been used as kindling
to start the fire. Okay, I think the state of
Yuri and Kreva, you know what clothes they are wearing,
you know, it suggests, you know, going back to the
original tent location, that maybe they had undressed just for
(47:09):
normal you know, staying inside the tent when the offenders
you know, came across him, and now they're just being
forced out into the elements. It wouldn't surprise me though,
if the offenders forced the victims to undress as a further,
you know, means of control. You know, it's sort of like, Okay,
(47:32):
you're going out there, and you don't have the ability
to just run away because you will die, right So
there may be an element of that where now the
offenders are going, okay, get out in the elements and
your pajamas basically, and you have to stay with us
because you need us in order to survive. At least
(47:53):
that may have been a message at the outset.
Speaker 1 (47:56):
Well, let me tell you about Creva's injuries. His face
is covered in abrasions and scratches. The right side of
his head is covered in blood. There's a contusion and
a scratch on the left temple that have caused a
swelling on the left side of his head. His ears
are frostbitten, His lips and his eyes are swollen. The
tip of his nose is missing and there's no blood.
(48:18):
Both of his hands are charred black. A wound peels
the skin on his left hand back. His right hand
has wound at the base of the thumb. There's a
bite wound, possibly from an animal, but they aren't sure.
The skin covering the middle phalanx of his third middle
finger is completely bitten off. Blood is frozen between his
discolored fingers. His left hip and his inner side of
(48:41):
his left thigh have multiple straight edge lesions. His left shin,
exposed by the torn underwear, is swollen third degree burns
cover shinn to foot and there is a four by
twelve inch area that is charred brown and black. And
the skin on his foot is peeling away. So what
(49:05):
is something that would happen naturally if somebody had a
heart attack in the snow and we're left there frostbite
or whatever, and what has to be some sort of horrible,
you know attack.
Speaker 2 (49:16):
Well, there's no question Uri and Creva are they're being
beat sounds like Creva. There may have been a knife
used on him. The missing part of his finger, you know,
that's where Okay, you said it was like bitten off. Okay,
what animals are out at this location and it's unusual
(49:36):
just to see like a middle finger missing, and so
I'm questioning whether it was bitten. Could it have been
cut off some aspects? Maybe even with the fire this
there could be a level of torture being inflicted on
uri in Creva, you know. And then why would the
offenders be doing this this type of torture. Are they,
(49:57):
you know, trying to elicit statements or find out what
these two saw that maybe they shouldn't have seen. My
senses is that both Urie and Creev probably died as
a result of blows maybe you know, repeated blows to
the head. But there's a lot there's violence. There's a
lot of violence going on to both of these victims. Yep.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
And so we still have seven more people to account for.
So later in the day, same location, they go a
half mile from that cedar tree and they find two.
Speaker 2 (50:31):
More people, two more victims.
Speaker 1 (50:33):
Yep. So you've got Egor and Zena. This is one
of the two women. So Egor and Zena are found
and they are a half mile from that cedar tree.
Their bodies are on the slope facing the tent. Egor's
body is face up behind a small birch. His legs
(50:55):
are bent at the knees, his hands are pressed to
his chest. His watch reads five thirty one, and I
think we need to jot that time down that becomes important.
I think later on five thirty one. It doesn't say
whether it's AM or PM five thirty one. Zena is
buried under firm snow above the treeline. Her arms are
(51:15):
curled with her fists clinched and they're under her body.
Her right leg is lifted to her stomach, frozen in
the position of like somebody is climbing. Do you want
to talk about the injuries or what do you think?
And I also have bigger injuries to talk about.
Speaker 2 (51:31):
Yeah, I was just going to try to clarify the
buried in snow. Is this a result of just, you know,
snowfall or did somebody purposely bury her?
Speaker 1 (51:39):
They are not indicating that this is like a burial site.
I think it's under snow. So both of these people,
Igor and Zena have more clothes on than either Ury
or Crevo did. They are still underprepared for being out here.
Igor is wearing a cotton undershirt, a red checkered shirt,
blue sweater, and a blue ferm lined vest which is unbuttoned.
(52:03):
He's also wearing black satin briefs brown flee ski pants
and some cotton sweatpants, and his socks are mismatched. On
his left foot he has like a brown sock, and
I mean he's it's definitely mismatched. Xena is more warmly dressed.
She has a pinkish red wool cap over a blue
wool knitted cap, a satin bra, blue knitted T shirt,
(52:24):
multiicolored checkered shirt. She's got more clothing on the left
cuff of the wool sweater is worn off. A military
style mask is lodged under her checkered shirt. She's also
wearing black cotton swimming trunks and black cotton body suit.
Now the swimming trunks, I know, sounds odd. I saw
(52:45):
a couple of photos in my package of the huge
package we had of them swimming in like a creek
when you know it has to be below freezing. So
I don't know if it was just for warmth. I've
seen several of those photos. I think maybe that was
the thing they like to do. I don't know if
that's at all helpful, but I wasn't surprised reading about
the swimsuits.
Speaker 2 (53:04):
Cold plunge.
Speaker 1 (53:05):
Yeah, uh good god, yeah, exactly. That's right. On both feet.
She has three layers of socks. Now I've got injuries
whenever you're ready.
Speaker 2 (53:14):
For those, yeah, I think you know. My only comment
about the state of dress is it's still wholly inadequate.
These two did not dress and voluntarily leave that tent
and walk what is it, basically a mile and a
half away, you know, So their state of dress is
probably how they were hanging out in the tent before
(53:35):
the offenders came in.
Speaker 1 (53:36):
Okay. They both show signs of non fatal what they
say is non fatal blunt force trauma. Igor's face, his hands,
and his ankles are scratched and bloodied. His nose and
his right hand knuckles are bruised by a blunt object.
They think. Zena's face, especially on the right side, is
purple red, bruised, and bloodied. The bridge of her nose
(53:59):
is slightly conco her eyes and her lips are swollen.
Her hands and fingers are a purple brownish color and
badly scraped. Her right hand is an irregularly shaped wound
with jagged edges and a scalped skin flap. The skin
at the base of her third finger is gone. And
(54:19):
then we will have some autopsy results because these bodies
are shipped out these four bodies and they do an
autopsy while trying to find Now we're up to five missings.
Speaker 2 (54:31):
Still, I would say that Igor and Zena's injuries are
you know, they're very similar to Yuri and craves injuries.
There appears to be they're being beat. You know, again,
is there some aspect of torture that's really hard to
discern just from verbal description. But you know the question
(54:52):
is is why are they located separately from Yuri and
Kreva and they don't have any fatal injury. I would
suggest right now that possibly Igor and Xeno were able
to run away after they had been beat and then
they succumbed to the elements, you know, they got a
(55:14):
bottom all away and then ultimately they succumbed, whereas Yuri
and Creva, I think they likely had the fatal injuries
inflicted at that campfire.
Speaker 1 (55:28):
Well, we get the bodies taken and they have forensic
experts conduct the autopsies on all four of these folks.
So this happens March fourth, which is, you know, five
maybe five days after they were discovered. Their deaths are
deemed violent and accidental, and they say they were caused
by exposure and hypothermia. The evidence that they say is
(55:50):
that there's swelling of the meningis and there is it
is a dark liquid blood filling the cardiac cavity and
the presence of Vishnaevski spots. Have you heard of that before?
Speaker 2 (56:06):
That doesn't sound familiar.
Speaker 1 (56:07):
They are spots that are dark brown to black heemorrhatic
lesions on the gastric mucosa found during an autopsy, and
it's a riable indicator of fatal hypothermia, is what they say.
Does that sound right to you?
Speaker 2 (56:24):
You know? Again, I just don't have any experience, you know,
with this type of temperature in the cases that I've got,
So these people are the experts, and so what they
in essence are saying, at least with what you're telling me,
is to say I had all four of the victims
(56:44):
were beat possibly cut into at some point or fingers
smashed or cut off whatever is or torture. I don't know,
but I'm kind of leaning that there may be something
like that. But none of the injuries. These pathologists couldn't
say any of these injuries by themselves were fatal. The
victims also had the exposure and there's the evidence, the
(57:04):
medical evidence of the exposure. Now with Uri and Creve
my senses is that they didn't have the ability, the
wherewithal in order to be able to get away from
that location, whereas I still think Igor and Zena possibly
were able to get away, but then ultimately the exposure
(57:26):
got them.
Speaker 1 (57:27):
So let me tell you some things that I found confusing.
Everybody except for Uri. All the other three people had
overfilled bladders and third and fourth degree frostbite on their fingers,
and Uri and Crevo had them on their toes. Based
on the state of the body's decomposition and the contents
(57:47):
of their stomach, the medical examiner or the physicians estimated
that they died pretty quickly after these final diary in
trees that happened at the tent. They say between six
and eight hours. But we know that's the stomach contents
are not going to be reliable.
Speaker 2 (58:03):
Overfilled bladders, you know, oftentimes after death, you know, bladders empty,
and we see that all the time, you know was there.
You know, these bodies probably would freeze pretty quickly. You know,
I don't know if that would contribute to the lack
of the bladders emptying and overfilled. They weren't allowed to
(58:25):
use the bathroom. Yes, you know, who knows. It's just
I don't think it's necessarily significant from a criminal aspect.
You know, that doesn't tell me much. I think, you know,
the injuries, the locations, the state address, that's all kind
of adding into a certain aspect to this crime that
(58:48):
is different than what we normally see out of homicidal violence.
Speaker 1 (58:53):
Well, let me tell you about the autopsy findings. There's
some little things that get picked up that obviously the
searcher couldn't say. So. One is Yuri's exposure was very extreme,
more than anybody else's. They basically said, if he had survived,
he would have lost all of his fingers and toes.
And they said, although he was found Now, this is
(59:14):
what I was thinking about. You for criminals, You know
that the idea of whether or not this is you know,
criminal in nature. They said, even though he was found
lying face down, his back exhibited liver mortis, and that
they say that meant that he might have been moved
after death.
Speaker 2 (59:31):
I would say that's a certainty that he was moved.
Liver mortis or lividity is after death. You know, the
heart is no longer moving the blood around, and so
the blood settles inside the body with gravity. And it's
one of those characteristics that we look for to determine
whether or not the person died in the position has
(59:52):
found or if the person has been moved after death
and with uri who's face down but his is up
opposite gravity tells me he has been moved. He died
and was on his back for a period of time.
Now the temperatures that his body is being exposed to,
I think can cloud Well, how long would that have been?
(01:00:17):
But that lividity was there, that blood settled on his
backside and was there in that position long enough to
basically what we call fix in place. So when his
body is moved, the blood doesn't just go back, you know,
down with gravity again to his front. So he's dead
for a period of time and then somebody moves him,
(01:00:40):
turns some face down, probably further away from the fire
on top of these, you know cedar branches.
Speaker 1 (01:00:47):
Is that nefarious or not? We don't know, right, you know.
Speaker 2 (01:00:51):
Well, this is where it's it was that part of
the original interactions between the offender and this crime scene,
or did you have somebody else come come after these
these two guys are dead, and search them looking for valuables.
You know, you could have other hunters out there, or
other trekkers or whatever that may be contaminating this crime scene.
(01:01:14):
But yours body has been moved, you know. And and
and so that's you know, why his body is being
moved versus the others. You know, maybe there's something there.
Speaker 1 (01:01:22):
Okay, one thing that seems mysterious to me. They said
that the soft tissue of his right cheek is covered
with a gray foam and gray liquid is leeching out
of his open mouth. Is that blood? I mean, I
don't even know what that would be.
Speaker 2 (01:01:38):
Well, when we see whether it be you know, sometimes
when you see overdoses, you know, you get this froth
that can come up out of the mouth. If he's
got some bleeding inside of his lungs, you can get
this bloody froth as as you know, he's breathing with
this blood inside this liquid inside his his lungs, the
(01:01:59):
gray coloration. And I'm not sure what to make of that,
you know, And I guess it's also you know, is
there any correlation between that gray colored froth and his
stomach contents?
Speaker 1 (01:02:11):
I don't have the answer to that, I can tell
you that that Kreva had further abrasions along the right
side of his chest and bruises on his left buttock.
The chunk of skin missing from his right hand finger
I mentioned that is discovered in his mouth.
Speaker 2 (01:02:27):
No, that's interesting.
Speaker 1 (01:02:29):
Yeah, And Igor's missing a central incisor in his lower jaw.
But they think that this is a tooth that's been
missing for a while, but they're not one hundred percent sure.
And then Zena, they found a very large bruise on
the right side of her torso in the lumbar region,
measuring eleven and a half by two and a half inches.
(01:02:49):
It appears to be afflicted by something like a baton.
Although she was found on her right side, her body
exhibits liver mortise on her back. So another person that's
flipped or moved, right, Yeah, I mean, and we don't
have everybody yet, there's five more people.
Speaker 2 (01:03:05):
Yeah, you know, the movement of the bodies. Uri and
Zena's bodies may just be offenders coming back and checking,
you know, are they dead or other things. But you know,
the the tissue found in Creva's mouth from his own finger.
Now he was the one that was missing part of
his middle finger, like it had been bitten off, says, The.
Speaker 1 (01:03:29):
Skin covering the middle pholanix or whatever that was of
the third middle finger is completely bitten off.
Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
Well, and so that's where now it's the skin covering
his his middle finger. So that's found in his mouth. Yeah, okay,
So why would he be biting his own middle finger
to the point where he's removing a chunk?
Speaker 1 (01:03:50):
Do you think that there's a chance because all of
these people are sort of stripped down that phenomenon that
happens with hypothermia where you just you go into a
delusion and think taking your clothes off is going to
actually make you warmer. Do you think anything like that
could have happened with these folks?
Speaker 2 (01:04:08):
You know, I wouldn't discount you know, some aspect. You know,
since the autopsy findings indicate to that all four of
these victims died due to exposure, you know, there is
a possibility that towards you know, their end of life,
there is that they're not necessarily thinking straight and that
may be contributing to some of the autopsy findings. However,
(01:04:32):
you know the extensive nature of the bruising and the abrasions,
and you know, all of that is suggesting that all
four of them are being significantly beat. It may not
have been fatal, but they are being beat significantly. There
may be aspects of the victims after that where now
(01:04:54):
they're not thinking straight. But you know, they didn't just
walk out of the tent because of hypothermia. They are
forced out of the tent and marched a significant distance away.
Speaker 1 (01:05:05):
Well, we have to go back to our search. But
because we have so many injuries that we've had to
deal with, I think this part of the search is
going to have to wait for next week because not
only do we have five more missing people, but we
have a lot of conspiracy theories and a particular group
of people who are targeted with very little evidence. So
(01:05:29):
there's a lot of there's a lot of speculation that
happens in the second half of this.
Speaker 2 (01:05:33):
Okay, well, you know it's uh, I'm gonna have to
noodle on this one.
Speaker 1 (01:05:38):
Noodle Okay, are you do you not noodle on all
of my two partners?
Speaker 2 (01:05:44):
Yep, looking forward to hearing more about this one. It
is interesting.
Speaker 1 (01:05:48):
Okay, I'll see you in a week.
Speaker 2 (01:05:49):
Sounds good.
Speaker 1 (01:05:54):
This has been an exactly Right Production.
Speaker 2 (01:05:56):
For our sources and show notes, go to exactly Rightmedia
dot com slash Buried Bones sources.
Speaker 1 (01:06:02):
Our senior producer is Alexis Amrosi.
Speaker 2 (01:06:04):
Research by Alison Trumble and Kate Winkler Dawson.
Speaker 1 (01:06:08):
Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.
Speaker 2 (01:06:10):
Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.
Speaker 1 (01:06:13):
Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.
Speaker 2 (01:06:15):
Executive produced by Karen Kilgaroff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.
Speaker 1 (01:06:19):
You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at
Buried Bones pod.
Speaker 2 (01:06:25):
Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded
Age story of murder and the race to decode the
criminal mind, is available now.
Speaker 1 (01:06:31):
And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's
Cold Cases is also available now.
Speaker 2 (01:06:38):
Listen to Barry Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the
last twenty five years writing about true crime.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's
worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most
compelling true crimes.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring
new insights to old mysteries.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime
cases through a twenty first century lens.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
This is buried Bones.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
I'm doing really well. And here's why. This is one
of my favorite days of the year. Okay, because it's
my twins' birthday.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Oh sure, Okay, isn't It's sweet?
Speaker 1 (01:14):
I mean, I love my kids so much, and I
love it that I'm in December. There in December. They're Sagittarius,
I'm Capricorn. I love having a winter birthday with them.
It's so sweet.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yeah, Now, you've got a lot of things going on
in December. Then with the holidays, it kind of starts.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
With Halloween with me, we go Halloween. It gets hectic
and then you know, because very weeks later ish you
have Thanksgiving and then the girl's birthday, and then we
have you know, Christmas and my birthdays right after that
in New Year's and so it's wild, it's crazy, but
they love it. Yeah, they like having a birthday together.
(01:52):
Of course you don't have a choice when you're a twin,
but they like having the birthday together. Kid. So tell
me first how your kids. I know you have two
older ones, two younger ones. How did they like to
celebrate birthdays any special way? They parties the whole way through.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
No, you know, I would say the younger kids ended
up having more of a group of friends that they
would have over like the special friends. My older kids
not so much, you know, they would just have one
or two friends, but not as big of a group
as the younger kids.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Well, they used to do that. They have similar friend groups,
and so they would have sometimes like a big party,
you know, so they would do that sometimes. Now we
sort of just do family stuff and then one will
go with the one best friend and the other we'll
go with the other best friend. But one of my
girls started doing something interesting. Last year. She asked if
she could go to her favorite restaurant, which is the steakhouse.
(02:46):
She's really big on seafood and steak and all that stuff.
And I said, okay, do you want me to take you?
And she said no. And I said do you want
to go with like your best friend? And she said no?
And I said who you going with? And she wants
to go by herself. And so I almost felt like
last year I had to call the restaurant and say,
I've got this kid. She's going to have her credit card.
Just let her do what she wants to do. It's authorized.
(03:07):
And she wants to do that again this year. So
she's she goes and she has what she wants to have,
and she'll get like this little molten you know, chocolate
cake for free, and then she'll come home and we'll
do a little family celebration. But that's what she wants
to listen to her music and eat an expensive.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Steak restaurant kind of adult.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Yeah, she likes space. She's a kid that needs space,
and so she really I don't know, that's just the
ideal way that she would do it. Is that what
you what would you do for your birthday.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Ideally, I'm probably very similar to her. I really don't
acknowledge my birthday. Yeah either, you know, after you have
so many of them, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
So many Paul holes.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
It's a reminder that's, you know, there's less life left
than what has been lived.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
So I told you what my mom says. She's she
just turned eighty two, and she said, but I am
gonna shout it from the rooftops every year because how
many people don't make it to eighty two. So I'm trying.
I am trying to adopt that. I think that's a
very positive attitude, unlike you're every year I'm closer to death.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Yeah, maybe I need to change my mindset a little bit.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
No, I mean I understand that we also in my
family like to tell really good stories, and this is
not a story I would tell my kids. That one
I'm getting ready to tell you. But it fits into
our winter theme and it's going to be really really interesting.
It's a Cold War mystery. I think we had some
conspiracy stuff, but not specifically about the Cold War. And
(04:40):
this is a really big story. So it's a two
parter and I for sure need your help because there's
a lot of snow avalanche talk like what is happening
in this scene? And I know nothing about the mountains,
so I think you're gonna have some good insight.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Oh okay, well I'll do my best.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Okay, let's set the scene. There are so many photos
that go along with this that I had to send
you several different packets. So I'll call for the Okay,
let's go to the diagram of this and that for
you to be able to look and you can just condense,
you know, what you're looking at, what's the basic summary.
But I'm happily in an area nineteen fifty nine where
(05:20):
there were a lot of photos available. So I think
that'll please you. I know it always does. You try
to pretend, you try to play it off and go,
oh no, I love these eighteen hundreds and seventeen hundred stories,
but secretly you would like more stories. I bet with photos.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
I'm always more comfortable with photos. But you know, we
make it work.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Ye, all right, here we go. So this is set
in Russia, Siberia, so please, please please everybody, just you know,
look at this with some grace. When I try to
go through some of these Russian names, I'll do the
best I can, so it might take a hot second
for me to make sure I'm getting the pronouncer and
YouTube Paul, make sure I'm getting the pronouncer right. We
(05:59):
are in the mountains. We start in the mountains and
we into the mountains on this one, so we're above
the tree line on height ten seventy nine in the
ural mountains. And this is an area that's barren and
rounded and the range runs north to south, which is
the marking the border of Siberia and dividing Europe from Asia. Okay,
(06:25):
and this is a place that people like to explore.
And this is nineteen fifty nine, so the atmosphere already.
I know you're going to want to talk about trying
to figure out mysteries and murders in outdoor environments, and
snow must be one of the biggest challenge. Which is
worse do you think a certain circumstances Is it rain
or is it snow or is it both?
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Ye? You know, to be frank, I've never processed a
crime scene in the snow. Coming out of the Bay Area, California.
It's right. I've definitely reviewed crime scenes you know that occurred,
you know where where it had snowed and there, you
know what I was fascinated when I was starting to see,
you know, crime scene images as you see so much
(07:06):
more because let's just say shoe impressions. You can start
to see where the offenders has walked, you know, and
kind of there's more information to reconstruct what happened if
it's you know, still somewhat pristine. If you will, rain sucks.
(07:27):
I will tell you that processing a crime scene in
the rain, you're losing evidence as time goes on. You
can't really take notes. The photos flash bounces off the
rain drops, so your photos turn out looking like crap.
So I would say, if it's a good snow it's
still cold enough to where the snow is solid, that's
(07:50):
probably better than that having to process a crime scene
in the rain.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Well, this is cold, cold snow, so maybe that's good
news for us. It's February twenty sixth, nineteen fifty nine,
and the temperatures have been hovering around zero degrees fahrenheit
during the day and then at night. I think it's funny. Allison,
who's our crack researcher here, she says, dip dip as
low as negative thirty degrees okay at night? What would
(08:16):
be the coldest that Colorado and the mountains would get.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Do you think you started this out by saying that
this is above the tree line, So that tells me
that we're at a pretty serious elevation. I'm guessing, you know,
roughly around ten thousand feet, and when you get out
into the Rockies in the front range, you start to
see the tree line once you get to roughly that
elevation and it gets cold. You know, I have Pike's
(08:41):
Peak in my rear yard almost at fourteen thousand feet,
and it's so much colder up at that elevation than
at where I live, which is sixty five hundred feet.
So you know, I'm sure there's places, you know, at
higher elevations in the Rockies that are going to match
this location.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Out here in Siberia, well, the snow is five feet deep.
Oh and earlier in the month, listen to this. Earlier
in the month, the winds had whipped through the pass
at sixty five miles per hour.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Okay, So we have a search party who is going
into this environment, and it's a student along with some
teacher volunteers from a technical university and they are searching
for nine people associated with the university who are all
professional explorer hikers and who have been in this area before.
(09:34):
So it is seven men and two women, and they're
all incredibly experienced, I mean, all kinds of certifications, whatever
they needed to do. They've done really really difficult things
in the past. But they haven't heard from them, and
so there's a search party that goes out. What will
be important later on is part of the search party
is a group of indigenous people called the Mansies. So
(09:55):
you know they're helping out because they know the area also,
and they had set out six days earlier than what
we're talking about. So on February twentieth, the search party
left and they have been tracing the ski tracks that
they believe belong to this little expedition as what I'll
call them, and the tracks brought them to this gentle
(10:17):
thirty degree slope. They immediately come to the first alarming
thing that they find. And I will sort of disclose
this to say why we are doing this story is
that we have these missing hikers. They will be found.
The question is what happened? And it has been this
incredible mystery ever since nineteen fifty nine. So here's the
(10:42):
first clue in what is to me one of the
more concerning clues. Okay, So they're at this gentle thirty
degree slope. The search team looks down in a shallow
dugout that is meant to shelter hikers from the wind,
and they find a tent that they believe belongs to
the expedition team. And it is slashed and partially collapsed. Okay,
(11:05):
and there are no hikers inside. Let me get through
this little bit and then we're gonna look at the
tent and kind of you can tell me what you think.
So I'll have diagrams of the tint and what the
slashes look like, and then I'll have photos of the
tent and what those are. So there are no hikers.
There's one tent pole that sticks above the snow. This
tent was constructed by stitching two canvases together, and the
(11:27):
tent is six feet by thirteen feet seems pretty big.
It's designed to hang on trees, but it could also
be sort of hitched up on a pair of skis
in an emergency, several skis, and there is a working
flashlight that's balanced on the top edge of the tent.
There's a pair of skis that's popped up in the snow. Nearby.
(11:49):
There are eight other pairs of skis that are well
organized under the tent, and there's an ice axe and
a jacket that's nearby. And it looks like all nine
people in the expedition you know, were there at one point.
So there's nine pairs of skis there for the nine hikers.
(12:10):
And then you've got the slashes and the tent, and
I could tell you more details about what's actually inside
the tent.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
At least with what you've told me, it sounds like
this expedition team, who are very experienced with the conditions,
they all made it to this location safely, and they
were able to set up a tent, all the skis
are organized. They recognize that this dugout was probably the
best shelter, you know. Maybe they saw inclement weather coming in,
(12:37):
or this was just going to be how far that
they were going to be going on that particular day.
So they get to this location and everything is normal,
and then something happens that causes this you know, them
to you know again, do they leave voluntarily, you know,
or does something else happen, you know, And then of
course this the you know, the damage to the tent
(12:59):
where I'm you know, my immediate thought is, okay, well
you mentioned the wind, you know, ripping through at sixty
five miles an hour previously. You know, do you have
damage to the tent as a result of weather. Do
you have damage to the tent as a result of
you know, large animal? You know, are there bears in
this location? And then of course do we have maybe
(13:23):
another group that had bad intent that cross paths with
this expeditionary team. So I'm kind of curious to see
how this unfolds.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Okay, yes, I am too, because this, like I said,
is a big, big mystery. Okay, let me tell you.
This is a lot of details, so just let me
plow through all the details of what's actually inside what
sounds like as a giant tent. So inside, hiking gear
is neatly arranged. To the left of the entrance, there
are seven pairs of felt boots and six pairs of
(13:54):
ski boots. To the right, there are cooking provisions, two
large axes, one small in a leather case, and three
finished knives, all purpose belt knives with a curved cutting edge,
and one is actually still in the sheath. There are
two buckets, two cooking pots, a suspended stove, bags of biscuits,
(14:15):
pork loin. There's alcohol, they think it's probably vodka. There's
hiking gear and clothes in the center of the tent,
two more pairs of ski boots and nine backpacks containing
nine parkas, eight quilted jackets, one fur coat. And then
there's I mean, this is a lot of stuff. I
had no idea I should have known. Four pairs of
shell pants. I mean, just a lot of clothing in there.
(14:36):
There's three compasses, one pocket watch, and several blankets, and
there's just food and provisions, and there's a first aid
kit in there. And it feels like they were sort
of caught in the moment. You know, it's not a
chaotic scene. It's the tent and the missing hikers that
are problematic. I have information about where they think they
might have gone, because there are what you and I
(14:58):
had talked about earlier. There are our footprints leaving, shoe
prints leaving the tent, and there's also the damage to
the tent. Do you have a preference on what we
talk about first?
Speaker 2 (15:08):
The damage to the tent is what I'm kind of
keying in on. I mean everything inside this tent. I
mean this expeditionary team. They were well prepared and this tent.
It's something that took a while to set up and
get all of those materials inside of that tent in
an organized fashion. So it seems like that they just
(15:30):
decided this is where we're going to be staying for
a bit, you know, So what caused them to leave
without this material? Yeah, because a lot of this material.
You know that you've got the boots and the coats
and everything else. This is all survival gear that you're
going to need at this elevation, at these temperatures, and
(15:50):
they're not going to voluntarily just leave that stuff behind.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Even more concerning to me was there is It's almost
like I had mentioned before, a frozen moment in time,
because they have this stuff called salow, which is a
high calorie white pork fat and it's a Slavic delicacy.
It is sliced and it's ready to eat, and it's
frozen on the table, so it hasn't been covered. It's
(16:18):
almost like somebody had just cut it and was getting
ready to eat it, and there's a jug of cocoa
that had been mixed with water, and that jug is
iced over at this point, and there is a stack
of wood right next to the fire like kind of
put into the stove. A stack of wood right next
to the stove, as if somebody was just getting ready
to load it in. And they have a journal and
(16:40):
they have cameras and individual diaries that are right there.
And then they only had about ten bucks, seven hundred
and ten roubles in there, and so it's almost like
something happened where they were living in it and they
immediately left.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Yeah, it's odd.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
I getting ready to say that a lot.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Yeah, you know. Okay, what's the size of this team again?
Speaker 1 (17:03):
How many they're pro hikers who are also students. There's
nine of them, nine and I have photos of them
and them in the snow, in the actual snow, you know,
chronicling this trip. They found their cameras and so you
can see what the snow looks like. And I also
have the boot impressions in the snow. Okay, so you
(17:23):
tell me where you want to go now.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Yeah, let's take a look at that scene, which.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
One Okay, if we look at what I called hikers
in fun snow. That's what the snow looks like. But
I don't think I have the photos of the tent.
These are like scene photos that they took themselves. Ok
These are not evidence photos. So if you open it,
you'll see the nine members of the team and then
(17:52):
you'll kind of just see their fun They were documenting
their lives on this trip.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Now they look young.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
They are students at this technical school, Okay, and I'll
tell you a little bit more about them once we
get there, since I know we need some victimology and stuff.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
You know. The first photo that I'm seeing, once I
get past the portraits of the team, it looks like
the team is in the back of a you know,
some sort of utility truck, like not quite a pickup truck,
and has the wooden railing that they're leaning against. But
they're all dressed appropriately. You know, they've got heavy jackets
(18:29):
with hoods and heavy mittens on, you know, the kind
of the fingerless gloves, which are you know, really good
for you know, the the frigid temperatures because you're able
to keep more warmth inside those mittens. And then it
appears in the front that there is some some sort
(18:51):
of carrying pack you know, that's on on the on
the floor, so I'm sure that contains a lot of
the supplies. And then the next foat shows three of
them up against these struct the structure that's constructed out
of a tree trunk and then some horizontal branches. And
(19:12):
so there's three of these tree trunks and each tree
trunk has three horizontal branches on you know, nailed to them,
and it appears like you know, some of the skis
are being leaned up against these structures. I haven't seen
this type of structure before.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
They're using it to clean the skis off. That's the
purpose of that structure is so they can kind of
sit and clean everything on, putting their boots too.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
I'm sure, yeah, that makes sense. You know, it's clever.
And there's more that are you know, further in the backdrop.
But I'm also taking a look at where they're doing this.
They're still below the tree lined. You have some you know,
whether they're aspens you know that are tall but sparse.
(19:56):
It's not like a super wooded area where they're located.
And then scrolling down the next photo is a photo
of them where they're now hiking. They got their snow
shoes or their skis on, with their ski poles, very
heavily garbed up with weather weather clothing, you know, the
(20:18):
heavy heavy jackets and the pant like the pants, and
it appears that at the time of this photo, the
snow is blowing, you know, so you know they've got
some weather that they are having to hike through. And
then the next photo is showing a tent with two
of the hikers kind of around this tent, and I
(20:41):
can see the ski poles that have been stuck in
the snow. They've rigged up a way to hold this
tent up. Now, this tent is only even though you
mentioned the tent was sixteen by thirteen feet, it's only
maybe three three feet tall.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
And that might be a different tint because they had
several tints from what I what I've read, and I
actually did find photos of the collapsed tents, so you
can have a better idea of that too.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Okay, so maybe they had multiple tents available to them
versus all of them going into the one one structure, yep,
you know. And then the last photo, you know, they're
just cross cross country skiing. That's what it looks like,
you know, they're following in each other's tracks, probably taking
turns as to who's in the lead, because that's going
to be the most challenging part of this. And it
(21:37):
looks beautiful. You know, You've got pristine snow, you've got
mountains in the backdrop with the trees, and maybe there's
a frozen lake up ahead, you know, so you know
this is it's nature. They're out there, but it does
look like it's fairly remote. I don't see any you know,
human made structures in this photograph at all.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
No, I'm gonna show you some photographs. I'm actually gonna
send them to your real quick, Paul.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Okay, yeah, so I'm initially looking at an overall photograph.
This is what we would how we would call this
this type of photo from a crime scene where it's
capturing basically the entire scene. In the middle, there's first
it's just snow all around where this collapsed tent is at.
(22:25):
There's no other structures. It appears that there there is
a peak of a mountain in the backdrop, and the
tent itself really just looks like you know, dark fabric
on top of the snow. And then this is where
the skis have been stuck vertically in the snow around
(22:47):
where this tent is, So those skis, I'm assuming possibly
helped hold up the tent in some capacity.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Yeah, because they don't have trees around, so I think
they either had to use skis or trees. And then
they have I think they had some tent poles with them.
I'll have to look again though.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
And then the other photo, which is a close up
of this collapsed tent, So this photo is showing the
tent that is not even sure how I'm going to
describe this, you know, basically the tents collapsed down there
appears to be a fair amount of heavy snow deposit
(23:24):
on the top surface, covering visibility on the top of
this tent. In the foreground, the closest to the person
taking the photograph, you can see where there's either you know,
what do you call them a ski you know what
you use as you're skiing, but you a ski pole,
(23:46):
So you know, it appears that part of the fabric
is is covering something like a ski pole, you know
where maybe that was the entrance into the tent, and
there's some cordage that's probably secure bring that part of
the tent to the ski pole or whatever it is
that's holding it up towards the rear. You know, there's
(24:07):
there's several skis that are vertical, you know, that probably
were there to help hold this tent up at some point.
And I'm also seeing some ski poles in the foreground
that appear to be mostly buried. The snow is heavily disturbed,
and this is where is this the condition when the
you know, the the search team, you know, first arrives,
(24:31):
or has there been a lot of disturbance to the
scene before this photograph is taken. So right now just
we don't I don't know how to interpret what I'm seeing,
but you know, it's heavy deposits of snow, chunks of
snow on top of this tent. And I'm surprised at that.
I thought, okay, with you know, over time, with weather blowing,
you'd start to see, you know, the snow just naturally
(24:53):
deposit on top of the tent. Even in this collapse state,
this almost looks like there's been chunks of no thrown
on top of the tent, maybe in an effort to
hide it, like somebody is trying to bury it but
doesn't quite get it completely. Buried well.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
And to give you a little bit more context, So
they're using the diaries. The search teams are using the
diaries and later on investigators to figure out how far
people got. So remember they have journals and diaries that
they found in the tent. And it's confirmed that on
January thirty first, they had reached this area. They dug
(25:34):
a snowpit, unloaded their heaviest gear in it, and the
next day they planned so February first, they planned to
ski toward the mountain Pass. But that's it. That's the
last entry where the journals were found at that location.
They had been missing or whatever happens to them starting
(25:54):
February first, and it is now February twenty sixth. Yeah,
I could also explain the snow. How much is on there?
You know.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
I just think the configuration of the snow looks wrong
to me for just being done by weather, you know.
And those journals are absolutely key from you know, a
temporal standpoint, as you said, they made it. They said
they made it out there on January thirty first, they're
going to go ski on February first, and there's no
other entries into the journals after that. Ye, And you know,
(26:25):
of course i'd be wanting to take a look at
the journals. You know, each person probably has their own
frequency that they're putting entries in. So do some of
these journals have entries every day and that it just
stops or is it more sporadic to where you know,
maybe there's additional days where there is a normal activity
(26:47):
occurring at this location and they just never made another
entry just because they weren't doing it on a daily basis.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Let's talk about the tent or do you want to
talk about them leaving? Which which do you prefer?
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Well, since I just described the tent, let's get more
details about the tent.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Okay, So the tent, it looks like you can go
ahead and bring up your photos and while you're doing that,
I'll go through this. The tent and its contents, you know,
were eventually collected from the slope and rebuilt inside police
station in ural. This is where kind of the main
investigation will start. A seamstress mending police uniforms remarks the
(27:26):
tent slashes which have been made from the inside, and
an expert confirms these were slashes made from the inside.
So you know, there's different information about the tent and
how big the slashes were. They might have it on
the diargy. Do they have it on the diagrams?
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Yeah, So this first it's a sketch. However, it's a
sketch that's been made using a straight edge, so it's
very neat. And the configuration of this tent is like
an a frame. So theabric the way the tent was
(28:02):
designed in order to be put up would be, you know,
in essence, you have a long ridge line from front
to back with an entry that's shaped like a triangle
in the front where people can go in and out
of this tent, and then you would have to have
various mechanisms such as the skis ski poles to hold
(28:25):
up this tent from the inside, as well as potentially
you know, using twine at both ends to hold up
the ridge line. On the sloped face of this tent,
there is a drawing of what I'm assuming is the
(28:46):
damage to the fabric, and it's significant in terms of
the size of the damage. For example, there is a
red arrow labeled number one, which is pointing at sort
of a linear defect on this tent roof, and there's
(29:10):
a number thirty one with two arrows emanating out of
it that goes along the length of that defect. So
I'm interpreting that is thirty one units log. I don't
know if it's centimeters. I don't know if it's inches,
but it's thirty one log. And then directly above that
is more of a curve of linear defect with a
(29:34):
red number two red arrow pointing at it, and that
defect has eighty nine units marking it. And then you
have large areas of fabric just in the middle on
this roof side, which they're indicating with cross hatching. What
I'm going to assume that there's missing fabric and there's
(29:58):
no real measurements cross how large this is, but it appears,
if this is relatively done to scale, appears to be
a significant amount of fabric that has been removed, but
not in a very regular fashion. There's a lot of
irregularities to some of the margins of this damage, and
(30:19):
there appears to be a very long tongue of fabric
in the middle of this that is still remaining. And
so it's almost as if you have two rectangular openings
and then a flap that was left behind. And then
there's the measurement roughly forty two inches or forty two
(30:41):
units wide for that fabric in the middle of this damage.
And then further down there appears to be a linear
defect that goes all the way from the top of
the tent down to where the tent would have been
secured using cordage to tense spikes in the snow, and
(31:05):
there appears to be some damage removed. So you know,
this is not you know, the amount of fabric that
has been in essence cut out from the roof of
this tent is significant. Why would somebody do that? That
the way that that's drawn, that's not done by an animal.
(31:28):
I don't see this occurring as a result of weather,
you know, So why is somebody doing this? And you
said that experts claimed it was done from the.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Inside inside, Yeah, does it look like it would have
been a knife would have had to have done it,
or some kind of cutting instrument would have to have
done it.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Well, at least you know, without seeing a photo, you know,
how straight the artist is drawing some of these defects
tends to just yes, you've got a sharp edge, you know,
knife scissors that is cutting parts of it, and then
(32:08):
possibly where it's irregular is where the fabric is bunched
up as they're trying to cut through that fabric. So
in some ways you can see where somebody is just
real quickly doing these linear cuts and then now is
balling the fabric up and then cutting the swaths of
cloth or fabric out from the roof. You know, these
(32:29):
photos are showing the you know, more close up of
the damage to the tent fabric, so I can start
to take a look and see, yes, there's no question
that you're dealing with, you know, a sharp edged you know,
chances are it's a knife. You know. However, the way
that some of the fabric has you know, these little pieces,
(32:53):
there's there is an aspect of not only cutting, but
possibly just tearing maybe even where you know, you start,
you know, with the knife and then you just kind
of more rapidly pull the fabric apart and tear it apart.
You know, they've got some good close up photos with
with scale showing that, you know, some of the fabric
(33:15):
was cleanly cut in this this close up photo, but
some of it appears that it also was pulled apart
like it you know, they started it and then now
it's just getting it completely apart through a tearing action.
There is one photo showing that side of the tent,
you know, where there's appears to be a fair amount
(33:35):
of fabric missing, you know, and it dawns on me,
it's very possible that whoever did this was using this
fabric to bundle something up, you know, like a little
to make a carrying case, or you know, depending on
how much of that tent. I mean, it's possible it
(33:56):
was used as a you know, like a wrap a
body in, you know. So that seems to make sense
to me. It's not random whoever did this. They're just
not doing this for fun, you know. It's not like
you know, sometimes you'll get some cases where you have
an offender that just wants to damage. It's like a
(34:16):
form of vandalism. I don't think that's what's going on here.
I think that there's maybe a functional aspect to why
the offender is if I want to, I'm not even
sure I can say a fender. But why, you know,
the person who is cutting the fabric, I think they
want to use the fabric for something.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Okay, So if we come out of the tent, where
we're looking next is do we have any boot prints.
We don't, we have footprints. They find a chain of
eight or nine sets of footprints leading from the tent
toward the tree line less than a mile away. So
the people who made those were either barefoot or wearing socks.
(34:56):
They said, one person wore a single ski boot. But
they're orderly, so there's not that sort of I don't know,
kicking up snow like they're running. They're orderly, and you
know they're kind of going maybe next to each other
or single file, I can't quite tell. But these footprints
disappear a quarter of a mile from the tent or so.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
You think about where this is happening. You know, you're
talking zero degrees down to what was it negative thirty degrees.
They're in snow, the snow is five feet deep, and
these people are not voluntarily walking out of that tent
without their boots on. They're being forced and that basically
(35:39):
they were told move. And now how does that happen
to a team of nine. Well, now you've probably got
a group with guns saying you guys are are marching.
Now you think how fast frostbite would set in without
you know, the heavy boots on, without the proper clothing
(36:00):
this location. I'm curious, you know, where these footprints stop,
where their tracks like snowbobill tracks. Was there, you know,
some sort of vehicle, you know, any indication that there's
a vehicle at this location that could pick this team up,
whether the team is still alive or it's killed at
(36:20):
this location, or is there any bloodstains at this location,
et cetera. You know, but they just didn't disappear, you know,
unless you know, the investigators failed to dig into the
snow and there's frozen bodies at this location that just
got covered with snow over time.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Well, let me tell you, you know, moving forward, they
follow these footprints and then they lose them about a
quarter of a mile from the tent.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
And do they do they lose them because just snow
covers them up.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
It looks like it.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
No, you know, but I think even though you know,
they may not have a full trail. You know, this
team was marched to a location and it's was that
location found where their body's recovered or again, you know,
where they transported somewhere else.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
So the next day they resume the search. At about
eleven o'clock, they discover the remains of a fire at
the base of a tall ceedar on that tree line's edge,
and it's about a little more than a mile, maybe
about a mile from the tent that have been slashed.
They say, based on the char of the wood, the
fire appears to have been burned for about ninety minutes.
(37:30):
The branches of the fir and birch trees within a
sixty five foot perimeter of the cedar have been cut,
and they think with a finished knife, which is the
knife I described for you, kind of a curved knife
that they would use. The cedars dry branches, which were
twelve to seventeen feet off the ground have also been
broken off. And let me just tell you it's at
(37:51):
the scene. So there's various garments, including a half burned
brown sock, a green checkered shirt with eight roubles in
the pocket, and a woman's handkerchief, and they're all strewn
around by the fire. And there are bodies there. Oh okay,
you know, we do know details about the trip, and
we know details about the school they went to and
(38:12):
who all these people are. Would you rather talk about
the trip when we get to kind of this first
set of bodies and go backwards and say this is
how the trip went, and do you want to hear
about these people as they come up or how do
you want to do it?
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Well, I think you know, with the finding of the bodies,
you know that will give me better insight as to Okay,
what what was the offender's motive? If there is an offender,
and then we can kind of get back and maybe
start going into the victimology.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Okay, they find initially two bodies. The first person is
twenty one year old Uri da ro Shinko, but I'm
calling him Muri. And then there's a twenty three year
old named Georgie Yuri Krevu Nished and he went by Creva.
So with Ury, he is lying face down with his
(39:07):
head turned to the left. And remember this is six
to ten feet from the fire what once was a fire.
His arms are bent at the elbows and his fingers
are clenched. His hair is very dirty and tangled with
moss and fur needles and burned near his right temple
in the occipital region. Under his body are three or
(39:30):
four cedar branches. And then I have information on what
he's wearing. And lucky for you, we don't have autopsy photos,
but we have very detailed autopsy diagrams of all of this.
So do you want to see the diagram?
Speaker 2 (39:44):
First?
Speaker 1 (39:44):
You want to hear about what he's wearing and some
more of his injuries.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
Yeah, tell me what they can see at the crime scene.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
Okay, he stripped to his undergarments. So he is wearing
a light green sleeveless cotton undershirt, a blue and red
checkered shirt, blue sat and briefs, and blue knitted long underwear.
The long underwear is missing a thigh panel. It's been
torn or possibly cut with a knife. On his left foot,
(40:10):
he wears three layers of socks, two light brown ones
knitted socks and then one white woolen sock. And on
his right foot he wears two layers of cotton and
wool socks. The outer socks on both feet are burned
to tatters. Last thing about ury. His ears, lips, and
nose are covered in blood. His upper lip is swollen.
(40:34):
There are multiple small abrasions and bruises that cover his
arms and legs. His fingertips and toes are dark purple
in color, and the toes on his left foot are burned.
So we can talk about creva or you can look
at the diagram of Uri and then we can go
on to Creva.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Let me look at the diagram of Uri. Here, the
hemorrhaging and swelling to his nose, his mouth, you know,
this all appears that he's being beat in the face.
He's he's taking blows, you know, possibly being punched. The
extensive abrasions to his arms, even his hands, you know,
around the knuckles. They notice a significant swelling, you know,
(41:17):
as if he possibly was, you know, striking something himself,
maybe fighting back against whoever's beating him. You know. Part
of the the complexity of evaluating the injuries is you're
dealing with probably crusty snow. You've got the branches that
his body is on. You know, some of this could
be a result of movement against you know, this hard
(41:40):
snow or the branches. However, it appears that you know,
he's he's probably being beat. You know. The dark purple
tissue at the tips of his fingers and toes suggests
frostbite to me, which it wouldn't be surprising and it
would probably happen really quickly out there if he's been
(42:00):
marched a mile dressed like this out to this particular location. Yeah,
I think you're going to start to see frostbite setting
in the burned hair as well as you know, it
appears that there's some other singing or soot from the fire.
Was he located closer to the fire at some point,
(42:22):
you know, and then his body was moved? You know,
who knows what's going on there. So yeah, at this point,
we don't know if Yuri died just as a result
of exposure, or if you know, he did you know,
receive a fatal injury or multiple fatal injuries. But it
does appear that he isn't he is interacting. There's violence
(42:44):
being inflicted on Yuri, you know. So that's now okay
tells me that at least with Uri, and I'm going
to say with probably the rest of the team, this
isn't where they ended up, you know, taking too much
vodka and some sort of psychedelic and just you know,
with doubt and just you know, walked out into the elements.
Goes back to what I in my initial assessment, they
(43:06):
were forced out, and at least with Uri and Creva,
they were forced out this location of the campfire, whether
that campfire pre existed and they were marched there or
you know, the campfire was started once they got to
that location. Also, the way that campfire, you're talking about
dry branches being you know, taken off of the surrounding
(43:29):
trees tells me that you are dealing with somebody very
experienced out in nature and recognized where the dry wood
is versus maybe some of the other sources of fuel
are still too moist in order to be able to
start a fire. They had a means to start a fire,
you know, whether that be you know, you know, you're
talking nineteen fifty nine, so they could have had pretty
(43:51):
much any modern contraption to start a fire, or they're
skilled enough to be able to start a fire using
what's available, you know, with flint, et cetera. So in
some ways you're dealing with bushcraft or you know, survivalist
type of training.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
Well, let me tell you just a tiny bit about
since Youurie's our first victim here, I'll tell you just
very briefly about the group. So, you know, this was
a sporting club, expedition club at a university that was
a technical university, to which I thought, okay, what does
that mean. They were all students or recent alumni in
(44:34):
and their majors were or their jobs were in economics,
nuclear physics, machine building, radio, and civil engineering. There was
one named Sasha who we haven't talked about yet, and
he was not part of that school. He came along.
This was an initially a ten person expedition, not a
nine person, but one person had to drop out because
(44:54):
of illness, so it turned into a nine person team. Here.
As I had said before, they're all experienced and they
were trained to become nuclear power and weapon and radio
and aerospace engineers. So that's where we start when we
talk about URI.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
Yeah, and what was the purpose of them going out
to this location?
Speaker 1 (45:16):
They loved it. It wasn't a school thing. It was
they were part of a sporting club where they would
do stuff like this. I mean, I have a lot
of photos of them doing other expeditions, you know, I'm
sure this was. It was a sports club trekking expedition
from specifically that originated from this technical college. But not
everybody went there. Okay, so this was a fun trip
(45:37):
and stuff they've done before.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
Yeah, So they didn't have a mission going out there that.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
They said, and not that we know of.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
Right.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
So we have another person who I mentioned to you,
and he was Uri Creva, and so we call him Creva.
And he is found close by to Uri. He's lying
face up. His right arm is above his head, his
left arm is bent so that his wrist lays across
his chest. His right leg is extended, his left leg
(46:08):
is bent at the knee, and just like you, he
stripped to his undergarments. He is wearing a worn white
cotton shirt, a red blue and black checkered shirt, blue
satin swimming trunks, and long underwear. These two have been
torn asunder. I mean they're torn around all this stuff.
The entire bottom half of the left leg is missing.
(46:31):
It's ragged edge is charred. His right foot is bare.
On his left foot, he wears a burned and tattered
brown sock. And then I have injuries for him and
of a diagram.
Speaker 2 (46:43):
Yeah, now, I think some of the missing fabric from
the victim's clothing that may have been used as kindling
to start the fire. Okay, I think the state of
Yuri and Kreva, you know what clothes they are wearing,
you know, it suggests, you know, going back to the
original tent location, that maybe they had undressed just for
(47:09):
normal you know, staying inside the tent when the offenders
you know, came across him, and now they're just being
forced out into the elements. It wouldn't surprise me though,
if the offenders forced the victims to undress as a further,
you know, means of control. You know, it's sort of like, Okay,
(47:32):
you're going out there, and you don't have the ability
to just run away because you will die, right So
there may be an element of that where now the
offenders are going, okay, get out in the elements and
your pajamas basically, and you have to stay with us
because you need us in order to survive. At least
(47:53):
that may have been a message at the outset.
Speaker 1 (47:56):
Well, let me tell you about Creva's injuries. His face
is covered in abrasions and scratches. The right side of
his head is covered in blood. There's a contusion and
a scratch on the left temple that have caused a
swelling on the left side of his head. His ears
are frostbitten, His lips and his eyes are swollen. The
tip of his nose is missing and there's no blood.
(48:18):
Both of his hands are charred black. A wound peels
the skin on his left hand back. His right hand
has wound at the base of the thumb. There's a
bite wound, possibly from an animal, but they aren't sure.
The skin covering the middle phalanx of his third middle
finger is completely bitten off. Blood is frozen between his
discolored fingers. His left hip and his inner side of
(48:41):
his left thigh have multiple straight edge lesions. His left shin,
exposed by the torn underwear, is swollen third degree burns
cover shinn to foot and there is a four by
twelve inch area that is charred brown and black. And
the skin on his foot is peeling away. So what
(49:05):
is something that would happen naturally if somebody had a
heart attack in the snow and we're left there frostbite
or whatever, and what has to be some sort of horrible,
you know attack.
Speaker 2 (49:16):
Well, there's no question Uri and Creva are they're being
beat sounds like Creva. There may have been a knife
used on him. The missing part of his finger, you know,
that's where Okay, you said it was like bitten off. Okay,
what animals are out at this location and it's unusual
(49:36):
just to see like a middle finger missing, and so
I'm questioning whether it was bitten. Could it have been
cut off some aspects? Maybe even with the fire this
there could be a level of torture being inflicted on
uri in Creva, you know. And then why would the
offenders be doing this this type of torture. Are they,
(49:57):
you know, trying to elicit statements or find out what
these two saw that maybe they shouldn't have seen. My
senses is that both Urie and Creev probably died as
a result of blows maybe you know, repeated blows to
the head. But there's a lot there's violence. There's a
lot of violence going on to both of these victims. Yep.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
And so we still have seven more people to account for.
So later in the day, same location, they go a
half mile from that cedar tree and they find two.
Speaker 2 (50:31):
More people, two more victims.
Speaker 1 (50:33):
Yep. So you've got Egor and Zena. This is one
of the two women. So Egor and Zena are found
and they are a half mile from that cedar tree.
Their bodies are on the slope facing the tent. Egor's
body is face up behind a small birch. His legs
(50:55):
are bent at the knees, his hands are pressed to
his chest. His watch reads five thirty one, and I
think we need to jot that time down that becomes important.
I think later on five thirty one. It doesn't say
whether it's AM or PM five thirty one. Zena is
buried under firm snow above the treeline. Her arms are
(51:15):
curled with her fists clinched and they're under her body.
Her right leg is lifted to her stomach, frozen in
the position of like somebody is climbing. Do you want
to talk about the injuries or what do you think?
And I also have bigger injuries to talk about.
Speaker 2 (51:31):
Yeah, I was just going to try to clarify the
buried in snow. Is this a result of just, you know,
snowfall or did somebody purposely bury her?
Speaker 1 (51:39):
They are not indicating that this is like a burial site.
I think it's under snow. So both of these people,
Igor and Zena have more clothes on than either Ury
or Crevo did. They are still underprepared for being out here.
Igor is wearing a cotton undershirt, a red checkered shirt,
blue sweater, and a blue ferm lined vest which is unbuttoned.
(52:03):
He's also wearing black satin briefs brown flee ski pants
and some cotton sweatpants, and his socks are mismatched. On
his left foot he has like a brown sock, and
I mean he's it's definitely mismatched. Xena is more warmly dressed.
She has a pinkish red wool cap over a blue
wool knitted cap, a satin bra, blue knitted T shirt,
(52:24):
multiicolored checkered shirt. She's got more clothing on the left
cuff of the wool sweater is worn off. A military
style mask is lodged under her checkered shirt. She's also
wearing black cotton swimming trunks and black cotton body suit.
Now the swimming trunks, I know, sounds odd. I saw
(52:45):
a couple of photos in my package of the huge
package we had of them swimming in like a creek
when you know it has to be below freezing. So
I don't know if it was just for warmth. I've
seen several of those photos. I think maybe that was
the thing they like to do. I don't know if
that's at all helpful, but I wasn't surprised reading about
the swimsuits.
Speaker 2 (53:04):
Cold plunge.
Speaker 1 (53:05):
Yeah, uh good god, yeah, exactly. That's right. On both feet.
She has three layers of socks. Now I've got injuries
whenever you're ready.
Speaker 2 (53:14):
For those, yeah, I think you know. My only comment
about the state of dress is it's still wholly inadequate.
These two did not dress and voluntarily leave that tent
and walk what is it, basically a mile and a
half away, you know, So their state of dress is
probably how they were hanging out in the tent before
(53:35):
the offenders came in.
Speaker 1 (53:36):
Okay. They both show signs of non fatal what they
say is non fatal blunt force trauma. Igor's face, his hands,
and his ankles are scratched and bloodied. His nose and
his right hand knuckles are bruised by a blunt object.
They think. Zena's face, especially on the right side, is
purple red, bruised, and bloodied. The bridge of her nose
(53:59):
is slightly conco her eyes and her lips are swollen.
Her hands and fingers are a purple brownish color and
badly scraped. Her right hand is an irregularly shaped wound
with jagged edges and a scalped skin flap. The skin
at the base of her third finger is gone. And
(54:19):
then we will have some autopsy results because these bodies
are shipped out these four bodies and they do an
autopsy while trying to find Now we're up to five missings.
Speaker 2 (54:31):
Still, I would say that Igor and Zena's injuries are
you know, they're very similar to Yuri and craves injuries.
There appears to be they're being beat. You know, again,
is there some aspect of torture that's really hard to
discern just from verbal description. But you know the question
(54:52):
is is why are they located separately from Yuri and
Kreva and they don't have any fatal injury. I would
suggest right now that possibly Igor and Xeno were able
to run away after they had been beat and then
they succumbed to the elements, you know, they got a
(55:14):
bottom all away and then ultimately they succumbed, whereas Yuri
and Creva, I think they likely had the fatal injuries
inflicted at that campfire.
Speaker 1 (55:28):
Well, we get the bodies taken and they have forensic
experts conduct the autopsies on all four of these folks.
So this happens March fourth, which is, you know, five
maybe five days after they were discovered. Their deaths are
deemed violent and accidental, and they say they were caused
by exposure and hypothermia. The evidence that they say is
(55:50):
that there's swelling of the meningis and there is it
is a dark liquid blood filling the cardiac cavity and
the presence of Vishnaevski spots. Have you heard of that before?
Speaker 2 (56:06):
That doesn't sound familiar.
Speaker 1 (56:07):
They are spots that are dark brown to black heemorrhatic
lesions on the gastric mucosa found during an autopsy, and
it's a riable indicator of fatal hypothermia, is what they say.
Does that sound right to you?
Speaker 2 (56:24):
You know? Again, I just don't have any experience, you know,
with this type of temperature in the cases that I've got,
So these people are the experts, and so what they
in essence are saying, at least with what you're telling me,
is to say I had all four of the victims
(56:44):
were beat possibly cut into at some point or fingers
smashed or cut off whatever is or torture. I don't know,
but I'm kind of leaning that there may be something
like that. But none of the injuries. These pathologists couldn't
say any of these injuries by themselves were fatal. The
victims also had the exposure and there's the evidence, the
(57:04):
medical evidence of the exposure. Now with Uri and Creve
my senses is that they didn't have the ability, the
wherewithal in order to be able to get away from
that location, whereas I still think Igor and Zena possibly
were able to get away, but then ultimately the exposure
(57:26):
got them.
Speaker 1 (57:27):
So let me tell you some things that I found confusing.
Everybody except for Uri. All the other three people had
overfilled bladders and third and fourth degree frostbite on their fingers,
and Uri and Crevo had them on their toes. Based
on the state of the body's decomposition and the contents
(57:47):
of their stomach, the medical examiner or the physicians estimated
that they died pretty quickly after these final diary in
trees that happened at the tent. They say between six
and eight hours. But we know that's the stomach contents
are not going to be reliable.
Speaker 2 (58:03):
Overfilled bladders, you know, oftentimes after death, you know, bladders empty,
and we see that all the time, you know was there.
You know, these bodies probably would freeze pretty quickly. You know,
I don't know if that would contribute to the lack
of the bladders emptying and overfilled. They weren't allowed to
(58:25):
use the bathroom. Yes, you know, who knows. It's just
I don't think it's necessarily significant from a criminal aspect.
You know, that doesn't tell me much. I think, you know,
the injuries, the locations, the state address, that's all kind
of adding into a certain aspect to this crime that
(58:48):
is different than what we normally see out of homicidal violence.
Speaker 1 (58:53):
Well, let me tell you about the autopsy findings. There's
some little things that get picked up that obviously the
searcher couldn't say. So. One is Yuri's exposure was very extreme,
more than anybody else's. They basically said, if he had survived,
he would have lost all of his fingers and toes.
And they said, although he was found Now, this is
(59:14):
what I was thinking about. You for criminals, You know
that the idea of whether or not this is you know,
criminal in nature. They said, even though he was found
lying face down, his back exhibited liver mortis, and that
they say that meant that he might have been moved
after death.
Speaker 2 (59:31):
I would say that's a certainty that he was moved.
Liver mortis or lividity is after death. You know, the
heart is no longer moving the blood around, and so
the blood settles inside the body with gravity. And it's
one of those characteristics that we look for to determine
whether or not the person died in the position has
(59:52):
found or if the person has been moved after death
and with uri who's face down but his is up
opposite gravity tells me he has been moved. He died
and was on his back for a period of time.
Now the temperatures that his body is being exposed to,
I think can cloud Well, how long would that have been?
(01:00:17):
But that lividity was there, that blood settled on his
backside and was there in that position long enough to
basically what we call fix in place. So when his
body is moved, the blood doesn't just go back, you know,
down with gravity again to his front. So he's dead
for a period of time and then somebody moves him,
(01:00:40):
turns some face down, probably further away from the fire
on top of these, you know cedar branches.
Speaker 1 (01:00:47):
Is that nefarious or not? We don't know, right, you know.
Speaker 2 (01:00:51):
Well, this is where it's it was that part of
the original interactions between the offender and this crime scene,
or did you have somebody else come come after these
these two guys are dead, and search them looking for valuables.
You know, you could have other hunters out there, or
other trekkers or whatever that may be contaminating this crime scene.
(01:01:14):
But yours body has been moved, you know. And and
and so that's you know, why his body is being
moved versus the others. You know, maybe there's something there.
Speaker 1 (01:01:22):
Okay, one thing that seems mysterious to me. They said
that the soft tissue of his right cheek is covered
with a gray foam and gray liquid is leeching out
of his open mouth. Is that blood? I mean, I
don't even know what that would be.
Speaker 2 (01:01:38):
Well, when we see whether it be you know, sometimes
when you see overdoses, you know, you get this froth
that can come up out of the mouth. If he's
got some bleeding inside of his lungs, you can get
this bloody froth as as you know, he's breathing with
this blood inside this liquid inside his his lungs, the
(01:01:59):
gray coloration. And I'm not sure what to make of that,
you know, And I guess it's also you know, is
there any correlation between that gray colored froth and his
stomach contents?
Speaker 1 (01:02:11):
I don't have the answer to that, I can tell
you that that Kreva had further abrasions along the right
side of his chest and bruises on his left buttock.
The chunk of skin missing from his right hand finger
I mentioned that is discovered in his mouth.
Speaker 2 (01:02:27):
No, that's interesting.
Speaker 1 (01:02:29):
Yeah, And Igor's missing a central incisor in his lower jaw.
But they think that this is a tooth that's been
missing for a while, but they're not one hundred percent sure.
And then Zena, they found a very large bruise on
the right side of her torso in the lumbar region,
measuring eleven and a half by two and a half inches.
(01:02:49):
It appears to be afflicted by something like a baton.
Although she was found on her right side, her body
exhibits liver mortise on her back. So another person that's
flipped or moved, right, Yeah, I mean, and we don't
have everybody yet, there's five more people.
Speaker 2 (01:03:05):
Yeah, you know, the movement of the bodies. Uri and
Zena's bodies may just be offenders coming back and checking,
you know, are they dead or other things. But you know,
the the tissue found in Creva's mouth from his own finger.
Now he was the one that was missing part of
his middle finger, like it had been bitten off, says, The.
Speaker 1 (01:03:29):
Skin covering the middle pholanix or whatever that was of
the third middle finger is completely bitten off.
Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
Well, and so that's where now it's the skin covering
his his middle finger. So that's found in his mouth. Yeah, okay,
So why would he be biting his own middle finger
to the point where he's removing a chunk?
Speaker 1 (01:03:50):
Do you think that there's a chance because all of
these people are sort of stripped down that phenomenon that
happens with hypothermia where you just you go into a
delusion and think taking your clothes off is going to
actually make you warmer. Do you think anything like that
could have happened with these folks?
Speaker 2 (01:04:08):
You know, I wouldn't discount you know, some aspect. You know,
since the autopsy findings indicate to that all four of
these victims died due to exposure, you know, there is
a possibility that towards you know, their end of life,
there is that they're not necessarily thinking straight and that
may be contributing to some of the autopsy findings. However,
(01:04:32):
you know the extensive nature of the bruising and the abrasions,
and you know, all of that is suggesting that all
four of them are being significantly beat. It may not
have been fatal, but they are being beat significantly. There
may be aspects of the victims after that where now
(01:04:54):
they're not thinking straight. But you know, they didn't just
walk out of the tent because of hypothermia. They are
forced out of the tent and marched a significant distance away.
Speaker 1 (01:05:05):
Well, we have to go back to our search. But
because we have so many injuries that we've had to
deal with, I think this part of the search is
going to have to wait for next week because not
only do we have five more missing people, but we
have a lot of conspiracy theories and a particular group
of people who are targeted with very little evidence. So
(01:05:29):
there's a lot of there's a lot of speculation that
happens in the second half of this.
Speaker 2 (01:05:33):
Okay, well, you know it's uh, I'm gonna have to
noodle on this one.
Speaker 1 (01:05:38):
Noodle Okay, are you do you not noodle on all
of my two partners?
Speaker 2 (01:05:44):
Yep, looking forward to hearing more about this one. It
is interesting.
Speaker 1 (01:05:48):
Okay, I'll see you in a week.
Speaker 2 (01:05:49):
Sounds good.
Speaker 1 (01:05:54):
This has been an exactly Right Production.
Speaker 2 (01:05:56):
For our sources and show notes, go to exactly Rightmedia
dot com slash Buried Bones sources.
Speaker 1 (01:06:02):
Our senior producer is Alexis Amrosi.
Speaker 2 (01:06:04):
Research by Alison Trumble and Kate Winkler Dawson.
Speaker 1 (01:06:08):
Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.
Speaker 2 (01:06:10):
Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.
Speaker 1 (01:06:13):
Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.
Speaker 2 (01:06:15):
Executive produced by Karen Kilgaroff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.
Speaker 1 (01:06:19):
You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at
Buried Bones pod.
Speaker 2 (01:06:25):
Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded
Age story of murder and the race to decode the
criminal mind, is available now.
Speaker 1 (01:06:31):
And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's
Cold Cases is also available now.
Speaker 2 (01:06:38):
Listen to Barry Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hosts And Creators
Kate Winkler Dawson
Paul Holes
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