May 14, 2025 • 56 mins
In this concluding episode of a two-parter, Paul and Kate return to the Golden Age of Hollywood, California. A young actress's many connections and relationships make her death an intriguing one, but what could investigators of the time piece together?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the
last twenty five years writing about true crime.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's
worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most
compelling true crimes.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring
new insights to old mysteries.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime
cases through a twenty first century lens.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
This is Buried Bones.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
I'm doing well. I know I left you hanging with
Thelma Todd, the very talented Thelma Todd, the Hollywood actress.
Do you want to give us a little bit of
a recap since I know it's been a week for
some of our viewers and our listeners.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Yeah, you know, from what I remember and what stood
out to me in the first episode on this case,
Thelma Todd was a young actress, actually very accomplished actress,
lived in an apartment above a restaurant that she owned
with a lover who happened to also be married to
another woman. So there's a little bit of a lover's
(01:38):
triangle within Thelma's life. And this lover, Roland, who was
he was a director or an executive.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Right, he was a director, film director.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Film director, has this beautiful house up a very steep
hill in the Pacific Palisades. Thelma goes out on a
Saturday night, and I don't think we discussed the details
of you know, what she did that night. However, her
housekeeper may ended up Monday morning looking for Thelma and
(02:12):
found Thelma slumped in the driver's side of her car
in the garage of Roland's house. Autopsy indicated she had
a fractured nose, she had some bleeding out of the mouth,
and she had carbon monoxide poisoning. And that's where we
left off.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
You got it. We've got now a whole host of,
I think, very confusing information. So the first half was
really establishing, you know, her death, and I don't think
we have any clear indication of time of death. We've
got two doctors saying two different things, and we do
know there is this weird it's hard to know if
it's a lover's triangle because it was just so vague
(02:55):
between them all. And then you know, we've got Thelma,
who I think one of the question marks was is
this suicide? Is this something else? So let's start back
up with I had hinted at a couple of things.
One was the threatening of Thelma's life, so let's start
with that. About ten months before Thelma died, so this
(03:18):
is about February of nineteen thirty five, she gets two
threatening letters in the mail. They say that she will
be harmed or killed unless she pays the letter writer
ten thousand dollars, So that's about two hundred and twenty
nine thousand dollars today. One of the letters, at least
one of them, demands that the ten thousand dollars be
paid to Abe Lyman, who is an orchestra leader in
(03:43):
New York, whom Thelma was once engaged to. Authorities, of course,
say this is ridiculous. Abe has nothing to do with it.
I mean, why would he name himself in a threatening letter?
But the letters are signed by the Ace of hearts.
How many stories can we do about these vague these
(04:03):
vague kind kidnapping rings or whatever? Now I can't remember
the Black Glove. I mean, I think we've had the
Black Hand versus the Black Glove, and now we've got
the Ace of Hearts. Someone calling himself that same name,
The Ace of Hearts, places several long distance phone calls
to Filma's cafe, threatening to blow the whole place up.
These are threats that she reported to the police, but
(04:26):
they don't think it's credible. None of this stuff is credible,
and ultimately the police track the threats to two men
based in New York, at least one of whom appears
to have some kind of a psychiatric illness. And this
is a long time ago, but I just want to
throw that out there, and it's a reminder of when
I said police were really investigating these threats. She is
(04:48):
a Hollywood actress, a very well known one, so she
is getting a lot of attention, and this story, which
probably would have been written off if she were a
quote unquote normal person as an accident or a suicide,
is being seriously investigated as foul play because of her status.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Now, you know, and this is, you know, part of
the celebrity lifestyle that people probably underappreciate in terms of
the nut jobs that are out there. You know, they
start obsessing and they want attention and want you know,
something back, whether it's positive or even negative. It's basically
(05:30):
they just want something, you know. I actually interviewed Evil
LaRue who was being stalked online. She was an actress
out of CSI Miami and other things, and ultimately my
partner on Golden State Killer, Steve Kramer and his agent
buddy Steve Bush, utilizing one of these stamps on the
(05:53):
letters threatening letters that have been sent in, were able
to use genealogy and identify her stalker. And he's just
some guy out I believe it was in Ohio living
with his mom, sitting in a basement, you know, threatening
Eva and her daughter over the course of you know,
like fifteen years.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Oh my gosh, are you serious?
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Yeah, you know, And it's just that's part of when
you have that national level exposure, you know, you do
get those crazies that will do that. So right now,
these two letters, plus the threatening phone calls in to
Thelma which are about ten months prior to her death,
it looks like, yep, it's it sounds like authorities are
(06:37):
just saying it's one of these nut jobs and had
these these individuals have no connection to Thelma out in
LA at the time of her death. That's what it
sounds like, right.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Yeah, they dismiss these two folks. It was just like
I said, another reminder to me also about the threat
that these stars are under, you know, constantly. I told
you in the last episode about my interview with Marcia Clark,
and one of the things I brought up to her
was she was on my radar before OJ because she
had prosecuted the case against the killer of Rebecca Schaeffer.
(07:10):
You know, the actress. To me when she was murdered,
she was on a big TV series at the time.
She was sort of that definition of the quote unquote
perfect victim, you know, beautiful Hollywood actress, very humble. She's
murdered by a stalker, and that shook me that case.
Do you remember much about the Rebecca Schaeffer.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Case, No, I do, you know? And of course she
just answers a knock on her door, Yeah, and the
offender shoots her. He was somebody who had he had
obsessed about her and at select points I believe he
had reached out to her, didn't get any response. He
ended up stalking other female actresses but then went back
(07:53):
and focused on Rebecca Schaeffer and then ultimately you know,
showed up better front door and just shot her, just
killed her. Yeah, it's so tragic when you think about it.
Here's this young woman whose career is taking off, and
you know, she's got this just what would probably be
an amazing life in front of her, and just to
have some random nut jobs show up and kill you.
(08:15):
You know, that's always this risk of when you end
up seeking that fame and fortune, will you draw the
attention of people that you may not want their attention.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Yeah, well, luckily it sounds like for Thelma, these letters stopped.
You know, they connected it, it was done. So let's
get back to our current timeline. So now I want
to talk about the details. We are on Saturday night.
It is Saturday night, December fourteenth. This is the last
(08:47):
time people see her. So about thirty six hours before
May finds Thelma, she is at her restaurant at the
Cafe working. She leaves around eight o'clock. She's going to
a in her honor because of these new films that
she's doing at the Trocadero nightclub in Hollywood. There's this
(09:08):
dinner that's in her honor because of the films that
she's been doing. Roland, the boyfriend, is there, but he
left before Thelma, so they kind of cross paths, and
on his way out, he reportedly told Thelma he wants
her home by two am, like a dad, be home
by two am, and she joked back that she'd be
(09:28):
back at two five. If you're paying attention to those
very last moments where at least publicly they were seen together,
it was like playful flirting, humor kind of thing. That
was the impression that I got.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Yeah, so they're not hiding their relationship.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
No, No, I mean I think everybody knows about it,
but they also know that while Jewel and Roland are
legally married, there seem to be an actual separation there.
So again, this is not splashed all over the gossip columns,
and this is herst media times, so you know there's
(10:03):
yellow journalism, it's just not that's not really part of this.
So I told you that the car was back up
at the house at Roland's house, so Thelma had a
driver drop her back off at the cafe at three
in the morning. She had sort of requested friends to
see her at the cafe Sunday, like she had joked,
(10:25):
let's see how many of you guys actually drag yourself
into my cafe on Sunday, And you know, they took
that as an invitation, so they were going to plan
to go. So she's at the cafe all the time.
I mean she left at eight pm and then she
had her driver drop her back off at three in
the morning. After her night out, she is realizing that
(10:46):
she didn't bring her key with her to get into
the cafe. But she knows that Roland is home in
the apartment above the cafe because he said I'm going home,
But it's also believed, Roland says, and Jewel says too.
Jewel was there too, So this is where things get
kind of mushy and confusing. For whatever reason, Thelma goes
(11:09):
into the apartment where Roland is and she doesn't wake
up Roland. And Roland said that this was something that
was really common, that he woke up really easily, and
she I don't think she was scared to wake him up,
but she was. I think that might be the whole
separate bedroom issue. But Jewel was with him at the time,
(11:29):
and maybe that's why. Maybe she didn't want to wake
him up either. It sounds like a very odd relationship,
but at the same time it seemed kind of normalized
in this time period. The police initially believed that she
climbed the two hundred and fifty stairs from the restaurant
up the hill to Roland's house. She doesn't have a
key to his house either, and she gets into the
(11:53):
garage and sits in her car, and the police at
this time had believed that she led herself into the garage,
not through the garage door, but there's like a side
door that was open. She got in her car, she
turned on the ignition and fell asleep with the door closed.
And a night watchman was scheduled to pass by about
six o'clock in the morning. And I don't know if
(12:14):
I believe this. The police think that Thelma might have
fallen asleep waiting for him. They also believe she was
pretty inebriated through all of this. So what do you
think of all that? I know that was a lot
of information all at once.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
So they're getting information from the driver that he did
drop her off at the cafe the apartment at three
am in the morning. And is there any suspicion on
the driver at.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
All, No, no suspicion on the driver.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
And then with this idea that she went into she
went into Roland's room.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
I think the insinuation was this that she didn't have
a key for the cafe, she didn't have a key
maybe for the apartment above. Also, she didn't want to
knock on the door to wake him up, and so
she decided to walk up two hundred and fifty steps, okay,
at four in the morning, drunk, most likely to get
into a house where she doesn't have a key up
(13:11):
there either. The only place she actually can succeed into
getting into is inside the garage. And then the idea
is that she would turn on the car with the
garage door closed to wait for a night watchman. I
don't know why. None of that makes sense to me,
but maybe it does to you.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Well, I'm just wondering. This is, you know, mid December,
and even though it's you know, we're talking La Pacific Palisades.
You know, maybe it's chili. And you know, one of
the questions that I have about this nineteen thirty five
Lincoln Phaeton car is does it have heat which you
have turned the car on in order just to have
(13:47):
some heat. You know, in order to get the heat,
you need to have the engine running to heat up
the coolant that goes through the heater core, you know,
and then the fans blow through the heater core to
generate heat. And she just doesn't recognize that a running
car inside a closed environment is dangerous, you know, with
(14:07):
the carbon monoxide. You know, that's that's one thing. If
this car had was a source of heat, maybe that's
why she turned it on inside the garage and why
she went up though it seems like she she was
inside the cafe to get to the apartment, So why
does she leave to go all the way up those
(14:30):
steps to ultimately just get into her car. If she's
so inebriated, you know, judgment is impaired, you know, and
she may not be thinking right. Maybe she's thinking, Okay, well,
Roland and Jewels are down at the apartment. I'm just
going to get up to the house and stay up there,
you know, and crawl into a bed up there. And
(14:51):
then she gets all the way up there and realizes, oh,
I can't get in.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
So here's the other side of that. There is no
way that woman to a fancy, spancy event in her
honor at that place, at that you know, restaurant, with
all of those people glammed out. What kind of shoes
do you think she was wearing.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Oh, she's she's going to be decked out. You know,
she has a you know, an image, a brand that
she has to maintain.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Yeah, heels. She's not walking up two hundred and fifty
steps in heels at four in the morning cold. I mean,
there's no way she. So May will say there's going
to be corners in quests that I'll tell you about,
and May will say at this corner's inquest, she hated
that she never wanted to go up that hill. Somebody
took her up there, okay, And this chauffeur says it
(15:41):
wasn't me. So she vanishes after he drops her off,
and they alibied him, and you know, nobody suspected him.
But that is I think the big issue here is
the chauffeur says she wasn't drunk. She was sober. Roland
said it would have been like her to not knock
on the door and wake him up if he didn't
(16:03):
have a key. She had done that before when he
was there. And she ends up throwing a rock through
the bedroom window, which I'm sure he didn't appreciate. But
then when she would lock herself out, other times she
would just go to her mom's. Now, I don't know
if that meant she would get in her car and
drive to her mom's or if she would call the
chauffeur back. But that's not what happened. She didn't contact
(16:24):
her mom. So the last thing we know is this
driver drops her off at the cafe. She's locked out there.
She's locked out of Roland's apartment. She supposedly in heels
and a mink and everything else, climbs up two hundred
and fifty stairs, and now's probably, paul a good time
for you to look at those maps.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Okay, And you know one question I have is when
her body's found, is she wearing heels?
Speaker 1 (16:46):
I didn't see a note about that. I want you
to look at this and you tell me what you
think if she walked up this spot with no heels
on it because she's wearing hoes, I'm sure too. Two
hundred Sorry, it's two hundred and seventy steps according to
this newspaper. So go to pages three and four and
kind of describe when you can what you think.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
You know. The first image is an actual photograph of
the front the storefront of the cafe. It's a bigger
building than what I was expecting. You know. It's right there,
right off the side of the road. There's parkings. There's
several vehicles that are pulled up into parking spots, you know.
Nose in to the front of this building. There's a
(17:31):
label indicating where the sidewalk cafe was, which is that
Thelma's cafe, because it also says the Joya cafe above that?
Is that what in the same It's.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
A sidewalk cafe and the Joya or whatever that is
must just be a separate business. Hers is that whole
bottom six that's huge?
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Yeah, no, that's a good sized cafe. And then there's
a label pointing to on the right side of the photograph,
which is a kind of a multi story part of
this storefront, whether it be the second or the third floor.
The label indicates that's where Thelma Todd's apartment was at.
And then there's some dotted lines, which it's hard in
(18:12):
this photograph to be able to determine exactly what those
dotted lines are marking. But I think those dotted lines
are marking the kind of the steps.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Oh no, I see, it's confusing. If you look at
the second one, you'll see there's two sets of steps,
but they're almost separated by what I mean, this looks
like a hole. This woman is not doing this. I
don't think in heels at four in the morning.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Okay, So there's two sets of steps, and then you
have the steps go up to what appears to be
one road, You cross that road, and then you go
up a second series of steps to get to the house.
And those steps basically it's like two separate sets of steps,
but they're straight per this sketch on the second page
(18:57):
that you just sent me, And yeah, you know this
is this looks like a significant distance. You know, this
is this is a situation. It's hard to discern from
the photograph and the sketch sort of the spatial aspects
of what we're looking at. And two hundred and seventy
steps is a lot, you know, you think about like
a floor. You know, you're looking about twelve steps in
(19:20):
a residential dwelling to get from you know, like my
basement up to the main floor, twelve to fifteen steps.
And so when you're starting to talk about two hundred
and seventy steps. I mean, you're you're going up I
don't know, twenty you know, twenty floors, twenty twenty twenty
five floors maybe, Yeah, So obviously this is this would
(19:43):
be a rigorous activity. So there I could see where
there would be some concerns about Thelma doing these steps
and heels. I would think she would take her heels
off in order to do that. Secondly, her heart condition,
you know, whatever that is. You know, does a heart
condition you know, prevent her from doing this type of
(20:03):
physical exertion. But then there's the victimology. May is saying
there's no way she would ever have done that. So
if she did not walk up the steps, how does
she get up to the house? You know, I know
this chauffeur is not of concern. I'm just you know,
(20:24):
it's like, well, he's the last one who saw her alive,
right right, Okay, So how did they eliminate him?
Speaker 1 (20:34):
So now we got to talk about witnesses, because there
were people who say they saw her or talk to
her on Sunday. And you know the last time he
saw her was when he dropped her off Sunday at
three am, so let me tell you what people said.
And Jule Carman, her boyfriend's wife, says that she saw
(20:54):
her too on Sunday. So here's what everyone says. Three
people report information to the police that, if true, would
have required Thelma to be alive on Sunday, not dead
Saturday night slash Sunday morning, So you know, the time
of death thing is becoming more interesting. One is named
Martha Ford. She's a friend of Thelma's, and she said
(21:17):
they spoke on the phone on Sunday. Thelma had been
invited to a cocktail party at Miss Ford's residence in
Laurel Canyon. Martha says that Thelma called her at four pm.
So this is like the twelve hour timeline that we're
talking about that the initial doctor said, saying that she
was on her way to this party and that she
was going to bring a friend along with her. She
(21:40):
did not show up, obviously to the cocktail party. And
they had the ability to trace phone calls and they
could not find evidence of that phone call from Martha Ford. Okay,
so that's witness one. Sketchy Witness number one. Do you
want to stop there or do you want me to
keep going? Or what do you think?
Speaker 2 (21:57):
No, keep going, I kind of want the whole picture
of the witnesses.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Okay. The next one is a waiter who is not
someone who's named I presume he didn't, you know, testify
in front of the corner's in quest. He was at
a different cafe, not her cafe, on Hollywood Boulevard, and
he tells police he saw Thelma. Who would have been
she would have stuck out like a sore thumb. Obviously,
(22:21):
he saw her drive past the cafe on Hollywood Boulevard
at two pm on Sunday, so two hours before, you know,
she was supposed to be talking to Martha Ford. And
then kind of The last one is after Thelma's death
a few days later on Wednesday. So Thelma was found
(22:42):
on a Monday morning. This is now Jewel, and Jewel
two days later, says she saw Thelma driving somewhere in
her car in Hollywood on Sunday. She says that she
was with a dark complexioned man, and Jewel later clarifies
she can't be certain she saw Thelma, but it was
(23:02):
definitely a chocolate brown Lincoln car which looked identical to
Thelma's car. I don't know what's happening. I mean, I
guess take the both ways. Either that Jewel is not
involved because there's nothing to be involved with and this
was an accident, or something really sketchy is happening. What
would Jewel be trying to do in both of those circumstances.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Well, the waiter and Jewel is the victim, the one
actually driving her own car. Is that their statement?
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Well, it sounds like yes, that she and she had
driven her own car. Sometimes she would have a chauffeur,
sometimes she wouldn't, so yes, and that she was driving
with a dark complexioned man. Very vague from jewel statement.
I don't know if she was suggesting that the man
was driving the car, but she just said she saw Thelma.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
So the first witness, Martha Ford, who is a friend,
spoke on the phone at four pm on Sunday. I
know you said that they had the cape ability to
trace phone calls and there is no evidence that that
phone call ever occurred.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
So they say they found no record of any phone
call made between Martha and Thelma's cafe or Martha and
Thelma's home, so the apartment. But I would assume they
would run that same thing on Roland's house, or maybe
she used a payphone. I don't know what she would
(24:26):
have used, but those were the two that they looked at.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
If you have the waiter. And he's accurate in his
statement saying he saw Thelma drive past his cafe in
Hollywood Boulevard at two pm, and then Martha is now
saying that Thelma spoke with her on the phone at
four pm. It's possible that Thelma is not at any
of her known locations. She's out and about now. One
(24:50):
of the things I don't know is, you know, nineteen
thirty five, you know phone records, you know, like billing
records and stuff like that. You know how much they
stayed on top of local phone calls, you know, I know,
you know going back, you know it's now decades later
in the nineteen seventies that you know, trying to trace
(25:13):
a phone call, let's say, like an active phone call,
it's it's a very labor intensive, quick moving process within
the phone facility itself. You know, got all sorts of
relays that they have to end up tracking down while
that phone call is going on. That's why you know,
this whole thing, you know back in the day, is
(25:34):
that the person on the phone that's issuing threats and
you're trying to trace that phone call. There's a clock
that's sticking because when they hang up, boom, these relays
just reset, and now you've lost sort of the phone
the originating phone number where that phone call came in from.
So I'm kind of wondering how in the nineteen thirties
they tracked phone calls, you know. And I'm getting down
(25:58):
to okay, if they're saying that there there's no record
of a phone call between Thelma and Martha Man and
I'm assuming Martha said she called Thelma or she was
home and Thelma called her, you know, it's one or
the other. So they would have the you know, who's
the originator of the phone call? You know, how much
veracity to put on the investigator's information, And I don't
(26:22):
know right now. That's that's that's a big question mark.
Is are they right and there's no phone call or
is it very possible there was a phone call and
they just didn't look in the right place, you know,
within the phone tracking system. So that's something that I'm
I'm chewing on this waiter. The waiter is not an
(26:44):
associate of the victim just recognizes the victim. And this
is a high profile case, you know, so there's you know,
there is always going to be that question mark of
is the waiter just trying to be helpful, read some
thing in the newspaper and maybe mistaken identity. You'd think
(27:04):
that Thelma's car, you know, would be somewhat unusual, but again,
you have a lot of wealthy people that live in
this area, so maybe it's not as unusual as I'm assuming.
And then Jewel, Jewel's the one that's that's interesting, you know.
My My concern with Jewel, of course, is is even
though it appears that this triangle between her and Roland
(27:27):
and Thelma is all out in the open and all
on the up and up, you know, if she's calling
in and is trying to place Thelma with some unknown
man m hm, you know, is she trying to drive
a wedge between Thelma and Roland, you know, or is
she just being honest? And again, I don't know. It's
(27:51):
all very interesting because you have three different people saying
they saw Thelma on Sunday m Yet Thelma is found
in the clothes that she went to the dinner from
Saturday m h and you have a show first saying
he dropped her off at the cafe, and this isn't.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Like Uber Paul. I mean, this was her regular driver
who was on call all the time.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
For her, and he's just pushing her out of the
car and driving away.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Well, she did not know she didn't have a key
until after she got to the door, and she realized
she left everything at home. And I'm assuming he was
gone already, and she can't make a phone call, so
you know, she went up to the apartment. I had
kind of wondered if Jewel was there, which has been insinuated,
and she did knock on the door and Jewel answered,
(28:43):
and maybe that's how she caught a ride up there.
But of course Jewel's not copping to anything. I don't know.
I just don't trust Jewel. I don't understand any of this.
Why would she let somebody, I mean, there's investments everywhere,
and it's just seems like an odd relationship.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
No, No, I think that, you know, the oddity of
the relationship is concerning you know, I think I want
more information about the normal routine that the chauffeur does.
You know, is I can only imagine that the chauffeur.
He's not just pulling up and okay, good night, or
(29:19):
you know whatever. This sounds for somebody of Thelma's status.
This sounds like a professional driver that likely would escort
Thelma to the door or you know, help her get
out of the car. You know, what's what is the
normal routine? And of course I know you probably don't
have that information, you know. So on one hand, the
(29:40):
autopsy results and her being found slumped in the front
seat of her own vehicle inside a closed garage with
carbon monoxide poisoning, you know, that suggests accidental. But I
can see where there's some concern just because there seems
to be other suspicious activity going on. There's churn. And
(30:05):
now it does come down to, okay, what is the
likely time of death? Can we eliminate these three witnesses
on Sunday? If we can say that Thelma was truly
dead thirty hours versus twelve.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
I think that it becomes very complicated because there's so
much more information. So the chauffeur's name is Ernest Peters,
and he said that she seemed scared and I was
not going to bring this up until now Thelma had
and this was a theory that the police claimed they
went down this road. But we'll see she had apparently
(30:45):
had a recent altercation with her ex husband, who had
ties two mobsters, and there began to be speculation and
the chauffeur kind of backs this up that her ex
husband and mobs that have been floating around, you know,
this area and in her circle were pressuring her to
use the cafe in gambling, and that this could have
(31:09):
been connected to that somehow, And so the show first says,
you know, she had sketchy people around. He testified at
you know, what would Sue be in the corners in
quest and that he, you know, just said she was
she was scared of her ex husband and that there
had been recent issues between the two of them. But
(31:30):
he said, you know, he put her at the cafe.
There's a spot where it's in front of the cafe
and also in front of a tiny set of steps
that I think you see in one of the maps
that go up to her apartment. I guess it's not tiny,
but it's a short set of steps. So he doesn't
particularly know which way she went at that point. And
then you know, there's information about the mob tie stuff.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Well, you know, it does it does boil down to
you know, I kind of go back to the fractured
nose a little little bit. Yeah, so you have the
theory that she succumbs to carbon monoxide poisoning. She slumps forward,
hits her nose against the steering wheel, and I'm not
doubting that that could potentially fracture, but it would be
(32:16):
a very minor. God, I remember playing basketball as a
kid and I'd have that basketball rebound off the rim
and just slam into my nose, and that would be
a hell of a lot more force in my head,
just kind of slumping forward into a steering wheel. And
I never broke my nose. You know, some boys had
their nose, noses broken by a basketball's right, So this
(32:38):
is where you know, evaluating. Okay, the level of damage
to her nose, I think is part of what I
would be looking into, you know, And where the bleeding
is coming out of her mouth? I mean, is her
upper palette to her oral cavity, you know, the roof
of her mouth is that fractured as a result this
(33:00):
fractured nose, or is the mouth Is the blood from
the mouth just a result of blood, you know, kind
of dripping down from the nasal cavity into the oral cavity,
you know. And this is these are observations they need
to be making at autopsy or should have been made
at autopsy, because I mean, if her nose is crushed
in and you know, her upper palette is fractured, and
(33:23):
I would say that's not from her slumping forward, you know,
somebody punched her in the nose or similar. So I think,
like for me to start resolving, you know, the circumstances
and the suspicions and the theories, is it's going back
(33:43):
to the core. It's going back to what does the
crime scene say, What does the autopsy say? Can I
see something that indicates or let's say, either corroborates or
refutes the theory that this was just an accidental carbon
monoxide poisoning.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Let me tell you a little bit more because I
I'm not going to have those details unfortunately, just about
I wish we had more sure on the autopsy. But
let me just tell you a little bit more about
the X. And I don't know if it's going to
go anywhere or not. So three years, not very long
ago before she died, she married a guy named Pat
did she go. He's an agent and a producer who
(34:20):
has alleged ties to mobster Lucky Luciano and they divorced
two years later. You know, they were married just for
two years. Now they're divorced a year before she dies.
During your marriage, they have absolutely awful arguments, very like violent.
Sounds like Pat is abusive and he hurts Thelma multiple occasions.
(34:43):
He breaks her nose, and she had been the one
to file for divorce saying that he was cruel. Still
really weird. Side note, Pat did Chico went on to
marry Gloria Vanderbilt in nineteen forty one, and she was
only seventeen when they got married, and she said he
was extremely abusive. So the running theory is about the mob,
(35:07):
that she got drawn into this world because the ex husband,
who has only been an ex husband for a year,
was involved, and that this would have been fairly common
and Roland West could have been involved too. I mean,
he was a film director. The intertwining between a lot
of Hollywood and the Mob was pretty tight in this
(35:28):
time period, so you know that is not out of
the realm. But you're right again, it's like the details
of the autopsy, you know, may or may not have
told us more information. I just think all of these
circumstances are so weird. I am so bothered that no
one is coping to taking her up to the top
of this hill, you know, and then all these things
that are happening. So if she is alive on Sunday,
(35:53):
why is she found dead Monday morning in the same
clothes that she wore Saturday night? Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Well, you know a scenario. Let's say she ends up
meeting with somebody after she gets dropped off by the chauffeur,
and maybe there's this is a consensual relationship, or maybe
she is truly under threat but never ends up going
back home in order to change the next day. This
(36:23):
ex husband pat is he a darkly complexed guy.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Here's the two of them together. Hold on, he looks
like he could be darker. He looks all of skin
to me.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
Oh yeah, is that surname like Italian?
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (36:37):
I believe so, yeah, yeah, because he looks Yeah, the
thick eyebrows looks like he has to you know, full
dark head of hair.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
But would she really not now who her current husband's
girlfriend's ex husband would be. I mean I don't know.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Yeah, you know that's Jule's statements. You know, is she
intentionally being vague or does she not get a good look,
or is there an associate of you know, a mob
associate of this pat to CHECKO that's now abducted. You know,
this is where when I start evaluating the circumstances of
(37:13):
how Thelma died, and if there's an organization like the
mob involved, one of the things that I would be
doing is reaching out to the experts who have investigated
mob homicides and find out do we have instances of
mob connections with a similar type of staged crime scene
(37:37):
where they in essence get the victim to succumb to
carbon monoxide? You know that again, the fracture knows Let's say,
could that have been a punch. Could that have been
a significant enough punch to where Thelma is dazed and
she's an essence put inside this running vehicle inside a
(37:59):
closed garage, has to be breathing. That's it's not like
she's dead. And then this is staged to look like,
you know, carbon monoxide. She has to be ingesting the
carbon monoxide by breathing, so she's still alive inside that
garage and taken in the carbon monoxide. The critical aspect
(38:20):
is really assessing the one injury she has. You know,
what is the level of violence. Is it consistent with
just a mere slump or is there a greater force
being applied? And I would say, if there's a greater
force being applied and then the blood blood flows, the
blood patterns, does that indicate that there's something suspicious going on?
(38:41):
If there is, if this fractured knows is significant, I
think that aspect in and of itself would push this
case from an accidental finding to at least an indetermined
finding in terms of manner of death, death by the
(39:01):
hands of another type of scenario. So nineteen thirty five,
you know, it's possible that they did some photography at
the crime scene in the Morgue. Pathologist should have written
a report, you know, so I'd be interested in getting
into the nitty gritty details of what the pathologist actually found.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
Okay, hang on, I think I found a photo. So
this is a photo of her on the autopsy slab.
This is from the book Tragic Hollywood, Beautiful, Glamorous, and
still dead. When cops arrived, they knew she was dealing.
They were dealing with a person of means. She was
extremely well dressed. The gown, full length mahogany mink coat,
lots of diamonds, expensive rings. Just as a reminder, if
(39:44):
we're looking at the mob connection, she had a lot
of jewelry, rosie, you know, cheeks. There was no trace
there were no traces of bruising around her neck, and
her nose was not broken, even though it looked like
it had been. And it says it has erroneously reported
she did have a loose filling and a slightly bloody lip.
A dying camellia was pinned to her party dress. The
(40:06):
withering flower had lost its pure white color and was
turning pink. Let me go ahead and share this.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
So this is saying her nose was not fractured.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
Well, I mean, and that's what the doctor had said initially,
but then there were these all of these other reports,
you know.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
So yeah, well she's obviously so I'm looking at, you know,
a picture Ofthelma. She's laying on her back. She's got
the typical neck rest that's used at autopsy, that's behind
her head. You know, her upper body is completely covers.
All I can see is pretty much from the jaw
(40:42):
up to the top of her head and her hair.
I can't tell if she's been autopsied at this point.
You know, her hair may maybe covering up any incisions
to her scalp. Sometimes there's deformation to the forehead, which
there may be in this case, but the nose looks pristine.
(41:05):
It does not appear that her nose was fractured. There
is just a slight discoloration on what appears to possibly
be her lower lip. You know, if this is all
the damage to her face, then I would say, you
know what, that laceration to her lip, If that's what
that is, that's completely consistent with her slumping forward and
(41:26):
hitting her mouth on the steering wheel.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
How'd she get up there?
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Yeah, there's definitely mysteries in terms of her movements. You know,
the timeline.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Wait, is this her?
Speaker 2 (41:39):
Yeah, that might be her in the vehicle.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
Yeah, that's her.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
At least at the time of this photo. She slumped
to her right, and so they've opened up the front
passenger door and have taken a photo with her laying there.
I wonder if that's the position that she was actually
found in. But the I think the bottom photo is
potentially reversed.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Yeah, I think you might be right. Some maybe people
can see it better or something.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
You know. Sometimes it's the way they develop the prints
from negatives, and they don't they don't account for the directionality. So,
I mean, it appears that she's in the middle of
the front seat based on the position. If I'm looking
at the top photo right, it looks like she's got
this long mink coat on and she's sitting on the
(42:27):
botto or she was sitting on the bottom of it,
and then she ends up collapsing to her left. But
where what I'm assuming is is where her butt is.
That looks like it's towards the middle of the front
seat of this vehicle.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
Doesn't look violent to me, and there's no space. I mean,
look at it looks pretty tight to me. If she
were sitting up, she's pretty close to the steering wheel,
and that looks like an imposing steering wheel. I could
see how that would knock her toothlues.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
Yeah, you know, potentially, but they're you know, this dashboard,
there's other features in front of her that if she
were to collapse forward, she doesn't necessarily have to collapse
into the steering wheel. Like where it appears that she
is sitting. It's possible that she just collapse and hit
the front dash. But we also have to consider that
as she's succumbing to carbon monoxide, it's not like it's
(43:20):
just you're completely lucid one moment and then you're done
the next moment. There's a process. It's possible that as
she is losing awareness so coming to carbon monoxide, she's
moving around, right Yeah, So it's hard to say exactly
how she positioned purposely positioned herself inside this vehicle. But
(43:42):
right now, I mean, her nose is not fractured, if
there's any I can't see any blood in these photos,
but I don't doubt that maybe there's some blood from
a minor lip laceration, right but this is not there
doesn't have there's no evidence of violence being inflicted on her.
So at least from a crime scene and an autopsy standpoint,
(44:06):
it's really tough to draw a conclusion that somebody did
this to her. Now it's possible, you know, but I
right now, I am now leaning back towards this is accidental.
She succumbed to carbon monoxide poisoning, and you know, the
mystery is is well, how did she get up there?
And why did she go up there? But I think
(44:27):
if she's just like, well, I'm locked out down here
at the cafe in the apartment. I'm going to go
up and see if i can get into the house.
And she can't get into the house, but she can
get into the garage and it's cold, and she turns
the vehicle on. Right now, I think that that's the
most compelling theory out there.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
This is another angle, but I don't know how helpful.
It's an above angle.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
Yeah, so, and that's showing that that other photo was reversed,
so this photo is accurate, and that it shows that
she fell to her left and her head is on
the driver's seat and the driver's door is open, with
the gentleman who may be an investigator, may be a
(45:10):
representative from the corner's office, is standing above her, not
wearing gloves, no, which forty years later they weren't wearing gloves,
So this is not surprising at all.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
Okay, well, it's good. Let me see if there's anything else.
I don't know what this is. Oh, I think they're
taking her body out. Is that a body bag kind
of thing?
Speaker 2 (45:32):
Yeah? It looks like, yeah, she's got they got her wrapped.
You know, when all is said and done about what
we've talked about. Yeah, you know, at this point, unless
something compelling came up, you know, if the Corners ruled
this as accidental carbon monoxide poisoning, I don't have a
(45:52):
problem with that. I think her celebrity status and some
of the you know, the strange relationships and mob connections
and threats and all of that, that's all very interesting.
But fundamentally to be able to say that somebody came
in and killed her, the evidence just isn't there with
what I've seen.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
I agree, man, I'm gonna give a lot of credit
to tragic Hollywood if anybody wants to look at some
more of these photos and just some wonderful photos of
her on the set. Yeah, what I mean, just a
twenty nine year old actress who was working so hard,
and you know, she's got this cafe and she's obviously
planning for the future. And I don't know how she
(46:31):
got up there. Maybe the chauffeur turned around and gave
her a ride and just for some reason didn't want
to say anything about it. Who knows, But this really
doesn't you know that the corner said these were mild.
This does not look like she was in a fight
in any way. But with so many weird circumstances, her
not wanting to walk up the steps, you know, her
(46:52):
heart condition, three or four in the morning, it's cold out. Say,
all of this stuff just added up to really suspiciousness,
I think for everybody involved. So let me just wrap
this up. The corner's jury ruled that the death appeared accidental,
but that it needed to be further investigated. They wanted
somebody to take a closer look at the organs for
(47:13):
more conclusive evidence, ruling out foul play. I don't know what,
what do you think they were thinking. Seventy to eighty
percent saturation of carbon monoxide seems pretty conclusive to me.
I mean, what were they thinking they would find in there?
Speaker 2 (47:25):
You know, I'd wonder if there had been let's say,
some punches to her abdomen, which you're not necessarily going
to see much on you know, this compressible part of
the of the body. But some of these internal organs
may demonstrate some hemorrhaging or some tissue damage, particularly the liver.
(47:46):
That's the only thing I can really think of you know,
and you know, her state of intoxication would be important
in nineteen thirty five, I'm not sure outside of the pathology,
just once he cuts into the body and goes, whoa,
there's a lot of ethanol, you know, on board, right,
I'm not sure what they were doing in terms of
(48:08):
measuring the amount of alcohol somebody had on board. And
you know, nineteen thirty five celebrity actress, you know, is
she abusing barbituates? Is she abusing you know, other recreational
drugs at the time, you know, so that could also
lead to this kind of mental state to where she
(48:29):
is now wandering up the hill, you know, stumbling up
the hill, you know, to get to the house where
she's doing something that she normally wouanted to do.
Speaker 1 (48:40):
Yeah, there are media reports, just in case somebody goes
digging around in this story. There were some media reports
that there was blood found in rolling in Thelma's apartment,
but I mean those were just media reports hers, you know,
journalism stuff, and the police never reported any of that.
And then you know, of course, what's always going to
come back is she wilt not have made that climb
(49:00):
up those steps. But never say never, right, I mean, really,
if you're motivated it just never say never. I mean,
we can't say conclusively. It's unlikely, and I know you
talk about that with victimology. It's unlikely, but it doesn't
mean that one night she didn't decide to do that.
There is a grand jury that convens on the case
for about a month. The grand jury foreman is a
(49:21):
guy named George Rochester, and he's kind of a grand
standard is what everybody thinks. Even though they already have
clear evidence from the autopsy that there's carbon monoxide poisoning,
he is insisting that the county chemist analyze her organs
for signs of poisoning. They do, and the report is
delayed for about a month, but there's nothing. And wouldn't
(49:42):
you think recreational drugs would have popped up on that
kind of a report?
Speaker 2 (49:45):
Also, you know, this is you know, this is an
era in which labs ability to screen for a broad
number of substances all at once just didn't exist. They
needed to be able to have an idea on what
to look for, yeah, and then utilize the analytical tools
(50:05):
they could to specifically look for maybe a class of
compounds if they're lucky, like there's different types of barbs
out there, but generally I would say that unless they
had an idea of what she was recreationally using, it's
very possible that they would have missed whatever was in
her system.
Speaker 1 (50:26):
Yeah, you know, I was thinking. I've done cases before
where there was a big question of whether or not
there was a suicide, specifically one in the nineteen thirties
around the corner from my house that I did for
a tenfold more wicked, where there was a young man
and he left the car running and it was nineteen
thirty five. He left the car running in the garage
and he said, well, I didn't even realize it was running.
(50:47):
And you know, I talked to somebody that said, no,
you would realize it's running. It's loud, it's not a
soft engine or anything. But you know, I was thinking,
how well educated were they in nineteen thirty five? Do
not closed the door, turn on your engine and let
it run. I don't know. I do know that in
twenty twenty one, when we had in Austin just the
(51:09):
most horrific set of snowstorms we've ever had that paralyzed
the city and it killed a lot of people, and
you know, We were not prepared because we don't get
snow down here. You know, our pipes are close to
the surface, our electrical lines are above ground, and we
you know, we're just nott We're not built for that.
There were a lot of people, Paul, who would run
(51:31):
little generators in the house. They were burning lacquered furniture
in the house because they didn't know. We didn't know
that that's what you're supposed to do. I did not,
thank goodness, but so I was just thinking, like, is
she likely to know this is a bad idea? The
chauffeur is insisting she wasn't drunk, and her friends are
not saying she was drunk, So I don't know. Otherwise,
(51:53):
what is the what is the answer? There's no visible
injuries really on her. If somebody locked her in the
car and then turned on the gas, she would have
been scraping and clawing and breaking glass and trying to
get out. It just doesn't make sense unless she truly
didn't know that this was a bad idea, trying to
get warm this way.
Speaker 2 (52:11):
And I lean probably a majority of the population, particularly
back in nineteen thirty five, probably weren't educated to the
dangers of car exhaust and the carbon monoxide poisoning. So
for me, I'm not surprised at all. You know that
she got into a vehicle, turned it on in sided
(52:31):
an enclosed garage, and the reason that she turned the
vehicle on, from my perspective, is she just wanted to
be warm that night. You know, she's in a mink coat,
you know, so that kind of suggests that it was chili.
Speaker 1 (52:45):
I still don't understand all of these eyewitnesses and Martha
Ford and all of this. I don't get it. Yeah,
I don't get it. I don't get it. And she's famous.
This is not just a normal person, a normal beautiful
blonde walking down the street. But you know, I think
you're right. I know you all all and we'll go
just back to the physical evidence, not eyewitness testimony and
victimology is important, but sometimes shit happens and people change
(53:07):
up what they're doing and you wouldn't expect it, but
they do. But really, there doesn't seem to be any
kind of real trauma when you look at it, so
you know, of course we'll never know, but this is
a pretty big mystery. This is one of those mysteries
in Hollywood. You know, this is a woman who obviously
was working very hard. She had a lot of promise.
These films are so fun that she put out, and
(53:30):
she just could have just accelerated and you know, maybe
she would get married and you know, have a lot
of things that were fulfilling to her. And it's just
awful that this is the way. It sounds like just
a lack of knowledge, not knowing anything about this. I'm
sure this did happen often, you know, sure, Well.
Speaker 2 (53:49):
You know, after this, I think I'm gonna have to
go and watch something on Thelma Toad.
Speaker 1 (53:56):
What did I look at? That was fun? There are
a bunch of them, but I think it was the
ten Minutes. Yeah, it was the ten minut and it
was cute. It was very lucile. There's actually on that
website there are some headshots of her with her co
star where they're very Lucy and Ethel before Lucy and Ethel's.
Speaker 2 (54:10):
So oh, very cool.
Speaker 1 (54:11):
I like that. Yeah, I like telling stories about women.
It's sad, particularly with Thelma Tood that she died, but
you know, it's nice to see a woman who has
a lot of independence in control, and it's nice even
though it ends badly. It's nice to be able to say,
these women have been here, working so hard for so long.
It's just good to see an example of it.
Speaker 2 (54:33):
Sure, I really appreciate you bringing this case to me.
Speaker 1 (54:36):
You're welcome. I can pretty much guarantee we're not talking
about Hollywood next week. Okay, I am not even pretty much.
I can say definitely going to do another Hollywood story.
It's just about six months off me trying to figure
this out, but we will have another compelling case next week.
Speaker 2 (54:51):
I'm looking forward to it me too. Thanks Paul, all right,
Thanks Kate.
Speaker 1 (55:00):
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Speaker 2 (55:02):
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Speaker 1 (55:08):
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Speaker 2 (55:11):
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Speaker 2 (55:32):
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Speaker 1 (55:39):
And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's
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I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the
last twenty five years writing about true crime.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's
worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.
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Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most
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cases through a twenty first century lens.
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Speaker 1 (00:38):
This is Buried Bones.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
I'm doing well. I know I left you hanging with
Thelma Todd, the very talented Thelma Todd, the Hollywood actress.
Do you want to give us a little bit of
a recap since I know it's been a week for
some of our viewers and our listeners.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Yeah, you know, from what I remember and what stood
out to me in the first episode on this case,
Thelma Todd was a young actress, actually very accomplished actress,
lived in an apartment above a restaurant that she owned
with a lover who happened to also be married to
another woman. So there's a little bit of a lover's
(01:38):
triangle within Thelma's life. And this lover, Roland, who was
he was a director or an executive.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Right, he was a director, film director.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Film director, has this beautiful house up a very steep
hill in the Pacific Palisades. Thelma goes out on a
Saturday night, and I don't think we discussed the details
of you know, what she did that night. However, her
housekeeper may ended up Monday morning looking for Thelma and
(02:12):
found Thelma slumped in the driver's side of her car
in the garage of Roland's house. Autopsy indicated she had
a fractured nose, she had some bleeding out of the mouth,
and she had carbon monoxide poisoning. And that's where we
left off.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
You got it. We've got now a whole host of,
I think, very confusing information. So the first half was
really establishing, you know, her death, and I don't think
we have any clear indication of time of death. We've
got two doctors saying two different things, and we do
know there is this weird it's hard to know if
it's a lover's triangle because it was just so vague
(02:55):
between them all. And then you know, we've got Thelma,
who I think one of the question marks was is
this suicide? Is this something else? So let's start back
up with I had hinted at a couple of things.
One was the threatening of Thelma's life, so let's start
with that. About ten months before Thelma died, so this
(03:18):
is about February of nineteen thirty five, she gets two
threatening letters in the mail. They say that she will
be harmed or killed unless she pays the letter writer
ten thousand dollars, So that's about two hundred and twenty
nine thousand dollars today. One of the letters, at least
one of them, demands that the ten thousand dollars be
paid to Abe Lyman, who is an orchestra leader in
(03:43):
New York, whom Thelma was once engaged to. Authorities, of course,
say this is ridiculous. Abe has nothing to do with it.
I mean, why would he name himself in a threatening letter?
But the letters are signed by the Ace of hearts.
How many stories can we do about these vague these
(04:03):
vague kind kidnapping rings or whatever? Now I can't remember
the Black Glove. I mean, I think we've had the
Black Hand versus the Black Glove, and now we've got
the Ace of Hearts. Someone calling himself that same name,
The Ace of Hearts, places several long distance phone calls
to Filma's cafe, threatening to blow the whole place up.
These are threats that she reported to the police, but
(04:26):
they don't think it's credible. None of this stuff is credible,
and ultimately the police track the threats to two men
based in New York, at least one of whom appears
to have some kind of a psychiatric illness. And this
is a long time ago, but I just want to
throw that out there, and it's a reminder of when
I said police were really investigating these threats. She is
(04:48):
a Hollywood actress, a very well known one, so she
is getting a lot of attention, and this story, which
probably would have been written off if she were a
quote unquote normal person as an accident or a suicide,
is being seriously investigated as foul play because of her status.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Now, you know, and this is, you know, part of
the celebrity lifestyle that people probably underappreciate in terms of
the nut jobs that are out there. You know, they
start obsessing and they want attention and want you know,
something back, whether it's positive or even negative. It's basically
(05:30):
they just want something, you know. I actually interviewed Evil
LaRue who was being stalked online. She was an actress
out of CSI Miami and other things, and ultimately my
partner on Golden State Killer, Steve Kramer and his agent
buddy Steve Bush, utilizing one of these stamps on the
(05:53):
letters threatening letters that have been sent in, were able
to use genealogy and identify her stalker. And he's just
some guy out I believe it was in Ohio living
with his mom, sitting in a basement, you know, threatening
Eva and her daughter over the course of you know,
like fifteen years.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Oh my gosh, are you serious?
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Yeah, you know, And it's just that's part of when
you have that national level exposure, you know, you do
get those crazies that will do that. So right now,
these two letters, plus the threatening phone calls in to
Thelma which are about ten months prior to her death,
it looks like, yep, it's it sounds like authorities are
(06:37):
just saying it's one of these nut jobs and had
these these individuals have no connection to Thelma out in
LA at the time of her death. That's what it
sounds like, right.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Yeah, they dismiss these two folks. It was just like
I said, another reminder to me also about the threat
that these stars are under, you know, constantly. I told
you in the last episode about my interview with Marcia Clark,
and one of the things I brought up to her
was she was on my radar before OJ because she
had prosecuted the case against the killer of Rebecca Schaeffer.
(07:10):
You know, the actress. To me when she was murdered,
she was on a big TV series at the time.
She was sort of that definition of the quote unquote
perfect victim, you know, beautiful Hollywood actress, very humble. She's
murdered by a stalker, and that shook me that case.
Do you remember much about the Rebecca Schaeffer.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Case, No, I do, you know? And of course she
just answers a knock on her door, Yeah, and the
offender shoots her. He was somebody who had he had
obsessed about her and at select points I believe he
had reached out to her, didn't get any response. He
ended up stalking other female actresses but then went back
(07:53):
and focused on Rebecca Schaeffer and then ultimately you know,
showed up better front door and just shot her, just
killed her. Yeah, it's so tragic when you think about it.
Here's this young woman whose career is taking off, and
you know, she's got this just what would probably be
an amazing life in front of her, and just to
have some random nut jobs show up and kill you.
(08:15):
You know, that's always this risk of when you end
up seeking that fame and fortune, will you draw the
attention of people that you may not want their attention.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Yeah, well, luckily it sounds like for Thelma, these letters stopped.
You know, they connected it, it was done. So let's
get back to our current timeline. So now I want
to talk about the details. We are on Saturday night.
It is Saturday night, December fourteenth. This is the last
(08:47):
time people see her. So about thirty six hours before
May finds Thelma, she is at her restaurant at the
Cafe working. She leaves around eight o'clock. She's going to
a in her honor because of these new films that
she's doing at the Trocadero nightclub in Hollywood. There's this
(09:08):
dinner that's in her honor because of the films that
she's been doing. Roland, the boyfriend, is there, but he
left before Thelma, so they kind of cross paths, and
on his way out, he reportedly told Thelma he wants
her home by two am, like a dad, be home
by two am, and she joked back that she'd be
(09:28):
back at two five. If you're paying attention to those
very last moments where at least publicly they were seen together,
it was like playful flirting, humor kind of thing. That
was the impression that I got.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Yeah, so they're not hiding their relationship.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
No, No, I mean I think everybody knows about it,
but they also know that while Jewel and Roland are
legally married, there seem to be an actual separation there.
So again, this is not splashed all over the gossip columns,
and this is herst media times, so you know there's
(10:03):
yellow journalism, it's just not that's not really part of this.
So I told you that the car was back up
at the house at Roland's house, so Thelma had a
driver drop her back off at the cafe at three
in the morning. She had sort of requested friends to
see her at the cafe Sunday, like she had joked,
(10:25):
let's see how many of you guys actually drag yourself
into my cafe on Sunday, And you know, they took
that as an invitation, so they were going to plan
to go. So she's at the cafe all the time.
I mean she left at eight pm and then she
had her driver drop her back off at three in
the morning. After her night out, she is realizing that
(10:46):
she didn't bring her key with her to get into
the cafe. But she knows that Roland is home in
the apartment above the cafe because he said I'm going home,
But it's also believed, Roland says, and Jewel says too.
Jewel was there too, So this is where things get
kind of mushy and confusing. For whatever reason, Thelma goes
(11:09):
into the apartment where Roland is and she doesn't wake
up Roland. And Roland said that this was something that
was really common, that he woke up really easily, and
she I don't think she was scared to wake him up,
but she was. I think that might be the whole
separate bedroom issue. But Jewel was with him at the time,
(11:29):
and maybe that's why. Maybe she didn't want to wake
him up either. It sounds like a very odd relationship,
but at the same time it seemed kind of normalized
in this time period. The police initially believed that she
climbed the two hundred and fifty stairs from the restaurant
up the hill to Roland's house. She doesn't have a
key to his house either, and she gets into the
(11:53):
garage and sits in her car, and the police at
this time had believed that she led herself into the garage,
not through the garage door, but there's like a side
door that was open. She got in her car, she
turned on the ignition and fell asleep with the door closed.
And a night watchman was scheduled to pass by about
six o'clock in the morning. And I don't know if
(12:14):
I believe this. The police think that Thelma might have
fallen asleep waiting for him. They also believe she was
pretty inebriated through all of this. So what do you
think of all that? I know that was a lot
of information all at once.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
So they're getting information from the driver that he did
drop her off at the cafe the apartment at three
am in the morning. And is there any suspicion on
the driver at.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
All, No, no suspicion on the driver.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
And then with this idea that she went into she
went into Roland's room.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
I think the insinuation was this that she didn't have
a key for the cafe, she didn't have a key
maybe for the apartment above. Also, she didn't want to
knock on the door to wake him up, and so
she decided to walk up two hundred and fifty steps, okay,
at four in the morning, drunk, most likely to get
into a house where she doesn't have a key up
(13:11):
there either. The only place she actually can succeed into
getting into is inside the garage. And then the idea
is that she would turn on the car with the
garage door closed to wait for a night watchman. I
don't know why. None of that makes sense to me,
but maybe it does to you.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Well, I'm just wondering. This is, you know, mid December,
and even though it's you know, we're talking La Pacific Palisades.
You know, maybe it's chili. And you know, one of
the questions that I have about this nineteen thirty five
Lincoln Phaeton car is does it have heat which you
have turned the car on in order just to have
(13:47):
some heat. You know, in order to get the heat,
you need to have the engine running to heat up
the coolant that goes through the heater core, you know,
and then the fans blow through the heater core to
generate heat. And she just doesn't recognize that a running
car inside a closed environment is dangerous, you know, with
(14:07):
the carbon monoxide. You know, that's that's one thing. If
this car had was a source of heat, maybe that's
why she turned it on inside the garage and why
she went up though it seems like she she was
inside the cafe to get to the apartment, So why
does she leave to go all the way up those
(14:30):
steps to ultimately just get into her car. If she's
so inebriated, you know, judgment is impaired, you know, and
she may not be thinking right. Maybe she's thinking, Okay, well,
Roland and Jewels are down at the apartment. I'm just
going to get up to the house and stay up there,
you know, and crawl into a bed up there. And
(14:51):
then she gets all the way up there and realizes, oh,
I can't get in.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
So here's the other side of that. There is no
way that woman to a fancy, spancy event in her
honor at that place, at that you know, restaurant, with
all of those people glammed out. What kind of shoes
do you think she was wearing.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Oh, she's she's going to be decked out. You know,
she has a you know, an image, a brand that
she has to maintain.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Yeah, heels. She's not walking up two hundred and fifty
steps in heels at four in the morning cold. I mean,
there's no way she. So May will say there's going
to be corners in quests that I'll tell you about,
and May will say at this corner's inquest, she hated
that she never wanted to go up that hill. Somebody
took her up there, okay, And this chauffeur says it
(15:41):
wasn't me. So she vanishes after he drops her off,
and they alibied him, and you know, nobody suspected him.
But that is I think the big issue here is
the chauffeur says she wasn't drunk. She was sober. Roland
said it would have been like her to not knock
on the door and wake him up if he didn't
(16:03):
have a key. She had done that before when he
was there. And she ends up throwing a rock through
the bedroom window, which I'm sure he didn't appreciate. But
then when she would lock herself out, other times she
would just go to her mom's. Now, I don't know
if that meant she would get in her car and
drive to her mom's or if she would call the
chauffeur back. But that's not what happened. She didn't contact
(16:24):
her mom. So the last thing we know is this
driver drops her off at the cafe. She's locked out there.
She's locked out of Roland's apartment. She supposedly in heels
and a mink and everything else, climbs up two hundred
and fifty stairs, and now's probably, paul a good time
for you to look at those maps.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Okay, And you know one question I have is when
her body's found, is she wearing heels?
Speaker 1 (16:46):
I didn't see a note about that. I want you
to look at this and you tell me what you
think if she walked up this spot with no heels
on it because she's wearing hoes, I'm sure too. Two
hundred Sorry, it's two hundred and seventy steps according to
this newspaper. So go to pages three and four and
kind of describe when you can what you think.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
You know. The first image is an actual photograph of
the front the storefront of the cafe. It's a bigger
building than what I was expecting. You know. It's right there,
right off the side of the road. There's parkings. There's
several vehicles that are pulled up into parking spots, you know.
Nose in to the front of this building. There's a
(17:31):
label indicating where the sidewalk cafe was, which is that
Thelma's cafe, because it also says the Joya cafe above that?
Is that what in the same It's.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
A sidewalk cafe and the Joya or whatever that is
must just be a separate business. Hers is that whole
bottom six that's huge?
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Yeah, no, that's a good sized cafe. And then there's
a label pointing to on the right side of the photograph,
which is a kind of a multi story part of
this storefront, whether it be the second or the third floor.
The label indicates that's where Thelma Todd's apartment was at.
And then there's some dotted lines, which it's hard in
(18:12):
this photograph to be able to determine exactly what those
dotted lines are marking. But I think those dotted lines
are marking the kind of the steps.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Oh no, I see, it's confusing. If you look at
the second one, you'll see there's two sets of steps,
but they're almost separated by what I mean, this looks
like a hole. This woman is not doing this. I
don't think in heels at four in the morning.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Okay, So there's two sets of steps, and then you
have the steps go up to what appears to be
one road, You cross that road, and then you go
up a second series of steps to get to the house.
And those steps basically it's like two separate sets of steps,
but they're straight per this sketch on the second page
(18:57):
that you just sent me, And yeah, you know this
is this looks like a significant distance. You know, this
is this is a situation. It's hard to discern from
the photograph and the sketch sort of the spatial aspects
of what we're looking at. And two hundred and seventy
steps is a lot, you know, you think about like
a floor. You know, you're looking about twelve steps in
(19:20):
a residential dwelling to get from you know, like my
basement up to the main floor, twelve to fifteen steps.
And so when you're starting to talk about two hundred
and seventy steps. I mean, you're you're going up I
don't know, twenty you know, twenty floors, twenty twenty twenty
five floors maybe, Yeah, So obviously this is this would
(19:43):
be a rigorous activity. So there I could see where
there would be some concerns about Thelma doing these steps
and heels. I would think she would take her heels
off in order to do that. Secondly, her heart condition,
you know, whatever that is. You know, does a heart
condition you know, prevent her from doing this type of
(20:03):
physical exertion. But then there's the victimology. May is saying
there's no way she would ever have done that. So
if she did not walk up the steps, how does
she get up to the house? You know, I know
this chauffeur is not of concern. I'm just you know,
(20:24):
it's like, well, he's the last one who saw her alive,
right right, Okay, So how did they eliminate him?
Speaker 1 (20:34):
So now we got to talk about witnesses, because there
were people who say they saw her or talk to
her on Sunday. And you know the last time he
saw her was when he dropped her off Sunday at
three am, so let me tell you what people said.
And Jule Carman, her boyfriend's wife, says that she saw
(20:54):
her too on Sunday. So here's what everyone says. Three
people report information to the police that, if true, would
have required Thelma to be alive on Sunday, not dead
Saturday night slash Sunday morning, So you know, the time
of death thing is becoming more interesting. One is named
Martha Ford. She's a friend of Thelma's, and she said
(21:17):
they spoke on the phone on Sunday. Thelma had been
invited to a cocktail party at Miss Ford's residence in
Laurel Canyon. Martha says that Thelma called her at four pm.
So this is like the twelve hour timeline that we're
talking about that the initial doctor said, saying that she
was on her way to this party and that she
was going to bring a friend along with her. She
(21:40):
did not show up, obviously to the cocktail party. And
they had the ability to trace phone calls and they
could not find evidence of that phone call from Martha Ford. Okay,
so that's witness one. Sketchy Witness number one. Do you
want to stop there or do you want me to
keep going? Or what do you think?
Speaker 2 (21:57):
No, keep going, I kind of want the whole picture
of the witnesses.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Okay. The next one is a waiter who is not
someone who's named I presume he didn't, you know, testify
in front of the corner's in quest. He was at
a different cafe, not her cafe, on Hollywood Boulevard, and
he tells police he saw Thelma. Who would have been
she would have stuck out like a sore thumb. Obviously,
(22:21):
he saw her drive past the cafe on Hollywood Boulevard
at two pm on Sunday, so two hours before, you know,
she was supposed to be talking to Martha Ford. And
then kind of The last one is after Thelma's death
a few days later on Wednesday. So Thelma was found
(22:42):
on a Monday morning. This is now Jewel, and Jewel
two days later, says she saw Thelma driving somewhere in
her car in Hollywood on Sunday. She says that she
was with a dark complexioned man, and Jewel later clarifies
she can't be certain she saw Thelma, but it was
(23:02):
definitely a chocolate brown Lincoln car which looked identical to
Thelma's car. I don't know what's happening. I mean, I
guess take the both ways. Either that Jewel is not
involved because there's nothing to be involved with and this
was an accident, or something really sketchy is happening. What
would Jewel be trying to do in both of those circumstances.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Well, the waiter and Jewel is the victim, the one
actually driving her own car. Is that their statement?
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Well, it sounds like yes, that she and she had
driven her own car. Sometimes she would have a chauffeur,
sometimes she wouldn't, so yes, and that she was driving
with a dark complexioned man. Very vague from jewel statement.
I don't know if she was suggesting that the man
was driving the car, but she just said she saw Thelma.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
So the first witness, Martha Ford, who is a friend,
spoke on the phone at four pm on Sunday. I
know you said that they had the cape ability to
trace phone calls and there is no evidence that that
phone call ever occurred.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
So they say they found no record of any phone
call made between Martha and Thelma's cafe or Martha and
Thelma's home, so the apartment. But I would assume they
would run that same thing on Roland's house, or maybe
she used a payphone. I don't know what she would
(24:26):
have used, but those were the two that they looked at.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
If you have the waiter. And he's accurate in his
statement saying he saw Thelma drive past his cafe in
Hollywood Boulevard at two pm, and then Martha is now
saying that Thelma spoke with her on the phone at
four pm. It's possible that Thelma is not at any
of her known locations. She's out and about now. One
(24:50):
of the things I don't know is, you know, nineteen
thirty five, you know phone records, you know, like billing
records and stuff like that. You know how much they
stayed on top of local phone calls, you know, I know,
you know going back, you know it's now decades later
in the nineteen seventies that you know, trying to trace
(25:13):
a phone call, let's say, like an active phone call,
it's it's a very labor intensive, quick moving process within
the phone facility itself. You know, got all sorts of
relays that they have to end up tracking down while
that phone call is going on. That's why you know,
this whole thing, you know back in the day, is
(25:34):
that the person on the phone that's issuing threats and
you're trying to trace that phone call. There's a clock
that's sticking because when they hang up, boom, these relays
just reset, and now you've lost sort of the phone
the originating phone number where that phone call came in from.
So I'm kind of wondering how in the nineteen thirties
they tracked phone calls, you know. And I'm getting down
(25:58):
to okay, if they're saying that there there's no record
of a phone call between Thelma and Martha Man and
I'm assuming Martha said she called Thelma or she was
home and Thelma called her, you know, it's one or
the other. So they would have the you know, who's
the originator of the phone call? You know, how much
veracity to put on the investigator's information, And I don't
(26:22):
know right now. That's that's that's a big question mark.
Is are they right and there's no phone call or
is it very possible there was a phone call and
they just didn't look in the right place, you know,
within the phone tracking system. So that's something that I'm
I'm chewing on this waiter. The waiter is not an
(26:44):
associate of the victim just recognizes the victim. And this
is a high profile case, you know, so there's you know,
there is always going to be that question mark of
is the waiter just trying to be helpful, read some
thing in the newspaper and maybe mistaken identity. You'd think
(27:04):
that Thelma's car, you know, would be somewhat unusual, but again,
you have a lot of wealthy people that live in
this area, so maybe it's not as unusual as I'm assuming.
And then Jewel, Jewel's the one that's that's interesting, you know.
My My concern with Jewel, of course, is is even
though it appears that this triangle between her and Roland
(27:27):
and Thelma is all out in the open and all
on the up and up, you know, if she's calling
in and is trying to place Thelma with some unknown
man m hm, you know, is she trying to drive
a wedge between Thelma and Roland, you know, or is
she just being honest? And again, I don't know. It's
(27:51):
all very interesting because you have three different people saying
they saw Thelma on Sunday m Yet Thelma is found
in the clothes that she went to the dinner from
Saturday m h and you have a show first saying
he dropped her off at the cafe, and this isn't.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Like Uber Paul. I mean, this was her regular driver
who was on call all the time.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
For her, and he's just pushing her out of the
car and driving away.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Well, she did not know she didn't have a key
until after she got to the door, and she realized
she left everything at home. And I'm assuming he was
gone already, and she can't make a phone call, so
you know, she went up to the apartment. I had
kind of wondered if Jewel was there, which has been insinuated,
and she did knock on the door and Jewel answered,
(28:43):
and maybe that's how she caught a ride up there.
But of course Jewel's not copping to anything. I don't know.
I just don't trust Jewel. I don't understand any of this.
Why would she let somebody, I mean, there's investments everywhere,
and it's just seems like an odd relationship.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
No, No, I think that, you know, the oddity of
the relationship is concerning you know, I think I want
more information about the normal routine that the chauffeur does.
You know, is I can only imagine that the chauffeur.
He's not just pulling up and okay, good night, or
(29:19):
you know whatever. This sounds for somebody of Thelma's status.
This sounds like a professional driver that likely would escort
Thelma to the door or you know, help her get
out of the car. You know, what's what is the
normal routine? And of course I know you probably don't
have that information, you know. So on one hand, the
(29:40):
autopsy results and her being found slumped in the front
seat of her own vehicle inside a closed garage with
carbon monoxide poisoning, you know, that suggests accidental. But I
can see where there's some concern just because there seems
to be other suspicious activity going on. There's churn. And
(30:05):
now it does come down to, okay, what is the
likely time of death? Can we eliminate these three witnesses
on Sunday? If we can say that Thelma was truly
dead thirty hours versus twelve.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
I think that it becomes very complicated because there's so
much more information. So the chauffeur's name is Ernest Peters,
and he said that she seemed scared and I was
not going to bring this up until now Thelma had
and this was a theory that the police claimed they
went down this road. But we'll see she had apparently
(30:45):
had a recent altercation with her ex husband, who had
ties two mobsters, and there began to be speculation and
the chauffeur kind of backs this up that her ex
husband and mobs that have been floating around, you know,
this area and in her circle were pressuring her to
use the cafe in gambling, and that this could have
(31:09):
been connected to that somehow, And so the show first says,
you know, she had sketchy people around. He testified at
you know, what would Sue be in the corners in
quest and that he, you know, just said she was
she was scared of her ex husband and that there
had been recent issues between the two of them. But
(31:30):
he said, you know, he put her at the cafe.
There's a spot where it's in front of the cafe
and also in front of a tiny set of steps
that I think you see in one of the maps
that go up to her apartment. I guess it's not tiny,
but it's a short set of steps. So he doesn't
particularly know which way she went at that point. And
then you know, there's information about the mob tie stuff.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Well, you know, it does it does boil down to
you know, I kind of go back to the fractured
nose a little little bit. Yeah, so you have the
theory that she succumbs to carbon monoxide poisoning. She slumps forward,
hits her nose against the steering wheel, and I'm not
doubting that that could potentially fracture, but it would be
(32:16):
a very minor. God, I remember playing basketball as a
kid and I'd have that basketball rebound off the rim
and just slam into my nose, and that would be
a hell of a lot more force in my head,
just kind of slumping forward into a steering wheel. And
I never broke my nose. You know, some boys had
their nose, noses broken by a basketball's right, So this
(32:38):
is where you know, evaluating. Okay, the level of damage
to her nose, I think is part of what I
would be looking into, you know, And where the bleeding
is coming out of her mouth? I mean, is her
upper palette to her oral cavity, you know, the roof
of her mouth is that fractured as a result this
(33:00):
fractured nose, or is the mouth Is the blood from
the mouth just a result of blood, you know, kind
of dripping down from the nasal cavity into the oral cavity,
you know. And this is these are observations they need
to be making at autopsy or should have been made
at autopsy, because I mean, if her nose is crushed
in and you know, her upper palette is fractured, and
(33:23):
I would say that's not from her slumping forward, you know,
somebody punched her in the nose or similar. So I think,
like for me to start resolving, you know, the circumstances
and the suspicions and the theories, is it's going back
(33:43):
to the core. It's going back to what does the
crime scene say, What does the autopsy say? Can I
see something that indicates or let's say, either corroborates or
refutes the theory that this was just an accidental carbon
monoxide poisoning.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Let me tell you a little bit more because I
I'm not going to have those details unfortunately, just about
I wish we had more sure on the autopsy. But
let me just tell you a little bit more about
the X. And I don't know if it's going to
go anywhere or not. So three years, not very long
ago before she died, she married a guy named Pat
did she go. He's an agent and a producer who
(34:20):
has alleged ties to mobster Lucky Luciano and they divorced
two years later. You know, they were married just for
two years. Now they're divorced a year before she dies.
During your marriage, they have absolutely awful arguments, very like violent.
Sounds like Pat is abusive and he hurts Thelma multiple occasions.
(34:43):
He breaks her nose, and she had been the one
to file for divorce saying that he was cruel. Still
really weird. Side note, Pat did Chico went on to
marry Gloria Vanderbilt in nineteen forty one, and she was
only seventeen when they got married, and she said he
was extremely abusive. So the running theory is about the mob,
(35:07):
that she got drawn into this world because the ex husband,
who has only been an ex husband for a year,
was involved, and that this would have been fairly common
and Roland West could have been involved too. I mean,
he was a film director. The intertwining between a lot
of Hollywood and the Mob was pretty tight in this
(35:28):
time period, so you know that is not out of
the realm. But you're right again, it's like the details
of the autopsy, you know, may or may not have
told us more information. I just think all of these
circumstances are so weird. I am so bothered that no
one is coping to taking her up to the top
of this hill, you know, and then all these things
that are happening. So if she is alive on Sunday,
(35:53):
why is she found dead Monday morning in the same
clothes that she wore Saturday night? Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Well, you know a scenario. Let's say she ends up
meeting with somebody after she gets dropped off by the chauffeur,
and maybe there's this is a consensual relationship, or maybe
she is truly under threat but never ends up going
back home in order to change the next day. This
(36:23):
ex husband pat is he a darkly complexed guy.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Here's the two of them together. Hold on, he looks
like he could be darker. He looks all of skin
to me.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
Oh yeah, is that surname like Italian?
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (36:37):
I believe so, yeah, yeah, because he looks Yeah, the
thick eyebrows looks like he has to you know, full
dark head of hair.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
But would she really not now who her current husband's
girlfriend's ex husband would be. I mean I don't know.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Yeah, you know that's Jule's statements. You know, is she
intentionally being vague or does she not get a good look,
or is there an associate of you know, a mob
associate of this pat to CHECKO that's now abducted. You know,
this is where when I start evaluating the circumstances of
(37:13):
how Thelma died, and if there's an organization like the
mob involved, one of the things that I would be
doing is reaching out to the experts who have investigated
mob homicides and find out do we have instances of
mob connections with a similar type of staged crime scene
(37:37):
where they in essence get the victim to succumb to
carbon monoxide? You know that again, the fracture knows Let's say,
could that have been a punch. Could that have been
a significant enough punch to where Thelma is dazed and
she's an essence put inside this running vehicle inside a
(37:59):
closed garage, has to be breathing. That's it's not like
she's dead. And then this is staged to look like,
you know, carbon monoxide. She has to be ingesting the
carbon monoxide by breathing, so she's still alive inside that
garage and taken in the carbon monoxide. The critical aspect
(38:20):
is really assessing the one injury she has. You know,
what is the level of violence. Is it consistent with
just a mere slump or is there a greater force
being applied? And I would say, if there's a greater
force being applied and then the blood blood flows, the
blood patterns, does that indicate that there's something suspicious going on?
(38:41):
If there is, if this fractured knows is significant, I
think that aspect in and of itself would push this
case from an accidental finding to at least an indetermined
finding in terms of manner of death, death by the
(39:01):
hands of another type of scenario. So nineteen thirty five,
you know, it's possible that they did some photography at
the crime scene in the Morgue. Pathologist should have written
a report, you know, so I'd be interested in getting
into the nitty gritty details of what the pathologist actually found.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
Okay, hang on, I think I found a photo. So
this is a photo of her on the autopsy slab.
This is from the book Tragic Hollywood, Beautiful, Glamorous, and
still dead. When cops arrived, they knew she was dealing.
They were dealing with a person of means. She was
extremely well dressed. The gown, full length mahogany mink coat,
lots of diamonds, expensive rings. Just as a reminder, if
(39:44):
we're looking at the mob connection, she had a lot
of jewelry, rosie, you know, cheeks. There was no trace
there were no traces of bruising around her neck, and
her nose was not broken, even though it looked like
it had been. And it says it has erroneously reported
she did have a loose filling and a slightly bloody lip.
A dying camellia was pinned to her party dress. The
(40:06):
withering flower had lost its pure white color and was
turning pink. Let me go ahead and share this.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
So this is saying her nose was not fractured.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
Well, I mean, and that's what the doctor had said initially,
but then there were these all of these other reports,
you know.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
So yeah, well she's obviously so I'm looking at, you know,
a picture Ofthelma. She's laying on her back. She's got
the typical neck rest that's used at autopsy, that's behind
her head. You know, her upper body is completely covers.
All I can see is pretty much from the jaw
(40:42):
up to the top of her head and her hair.
I can't tell if she's been autopsied at this point.
You know, her hair may maybe covering up any incisions
to her scalp. Sometimes there's deformation to the forehead, which
there may be in this case, but the nose looks pristine.
(41:05):
It does not appear that her nose was fractured. There
is just a slight discoloration on what appears to possibly
be her lower lip. You know, if this is all
the damage to her face, then I would say, you
know what, that laceration to her lip, If that's what
that is, that's completely consistent with her slumping forward and
(41:26):
hitting her mouth on the steering wheel.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
How'd she get up there?
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Yeah, there's definitely mysteries in terms of her movements. You know,
the timeline.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Wait, is this her?
Speaker 2 (41:39):
Yeah, that might be her in the vehicle.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
Yeah, that's her.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
At least at the time of this photo. She slumped
to her right, and so they've opened up the front
passenger door and have taken a photo with her laying there.
I wonder if that's the position that she was actually
found in. But the I think the bottom photo is
potentially reversed.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Yeah, I think you might be right. Some maybe people
can see it better or something.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
You know. Sometimes it's the way they develop the prints
from negatives, and they don't they don't account for the directionality. So,
I mean, it appears that she's in the middle of
the front seat based on the position. If I'm looking
at the top photo right, it looks like she's got
this long mink coat on and she's sitting on the
(42:27):
botto or she was sitting on the bottom of it,
and then she ends up collapsing to her left. But
where what I'm assuming is is where her butt is.
That looks like it's towards the middle of the front
seat of this vehicle.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
Doesn't look violent to me, and there's no space. I mean,
look at it looks pretty tight to me. If she
were sitting up, she's pretty close to the steering wheel,
and that looks like an imposing steering wheel. I could
see how that would knock her toothlues.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
Yeah, you know, potentially, but they're you know, this dashboard,
there's other features in front of her that if she
were to collapse forward, she doesn't necessarily have to collapse
into the steering wheel. Like where it appears that she
is sitting. It's possible that she just collapse and hit
the front dash. But we also have to consider that
as she's succumbing to carbon monoxide, it's not like it's
(43:20):
just you're completely lucid one moment and then you're done
the next moment. There's a process. It's possible that as
she is losing awareness so coming to carbon monoxide, she's
moving around, right Yeah, So it's hard to say exactly
how she positioned purposely positioned herself inside this vehicle. But
(43:42):
right now, I mean, her nose is not fractured, if
there's any I can't see any blood in these photos,
but I don't doubt that maybe there's some blood from
a minor lip laceration, right but this is not there
doesn't have there's no evidence of violence being inflicted on her.
So at least from a crime scene and an autopsy standpoint,
(44:06):
it's really tough to draw a conclusion that somebody did
this to her. Now it's possible, you know, but I
right now, I am now leaning back towards this is accidental.
She succumbed to carbon monoxide poisoning, and you know, the
mystery is is well, how did she get up there?
And why did she go up there? But I think
(44:27):
if she's just like, well, I'm locked out down here
at the cafe in the apartment. I'm going to go
up and see if i can get into the house.
And she can't get into the house, but she can
get into the garage and it's cold, and she turns
the vehicle on. Right now, I think that that's the
most compelling theory out there.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
This is another angle, but I don't know how helpful.
It's an above angle.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
Yeah, so, and that's showing that that other photo was reversed,
so this photo is accurate, and that it shows that
she fell to her left and her head is on
the driver's seat and the driver's door is open, with
the gentleman who may be an investigator, may be a
(45:10):
representative from the corner's office, is standing above her, not
wearing gloves, no, which forty years later they weren't wearing gloves,
So this is not surprising at all.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
Okay, well, it's good. Let me see if there's anything else.
I don't know what this is. Oh, I think they're
taking her body out. Is that a body bag kind
of thing?
Speaker 2 (45:32):
Yeah? It looks like, yeah, she's got they got her wrapped.
You know, when all is said and done about what
we've talked about. Yeah, you know, at this point, unless
something compelling came up, you know, if the Corners ruled
this as accidental carbon monoxide poisoning, I don't have a
(45:52):
problem with that. I think her celebrity status and some
of the you know, the strange relationships and mob connections
and threats and all of that, that's all very interesting.
But fundamentally to be able to say that somebody came
in and killed her, the evidence just isn't there with
what I've seen.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
I agree, man, I'm gonna give a lot of credit
to tragic Hollywood if anybody wants to look at some
more of these photos and just some wonderful photos of
her on the set. Yeah, what I mean, just a
twenty nine year old actress who was working so hard,
and you know, she's got this cafe and she's obviously
planning for the future. And I don't know how she
(46:31):
got up there. Maybe the chauffeur turned around and gave
her a ride and just for some reason didn't want
to say anything about it. Who knows, But this really
doesn't you know that the corner said these were mild.
This does not look like she was in a fight
in any way. But with so many weird circumstances, her
not wanting to walk up the steps, you know, her
(46:52):
heart condition, three or four in the morning, it's cold out. Say,
all of this stuff just added up to really suspiciousness,
I think for everybody involved. So let me just wrap
this up. The corner's jury ruled that the death appeared accidental,
but that it needed to be further investigated. They wanted
somebody to take a closer look at the organs for
(47:13):
more conclusive evidence, ruling out foul play. I don't know what,
what do you think they were thinking. Seventy to eighty
percent saturation of carbon monoxide seems pretty conclusive to me.
I mean, what were they thinking they would find in there?
Speaker 2 (47:25):
You know, I'd wonder if there had been let's say,
some punches to her abdomen, which you're not necessarily going
to see much on you know, this compressible part of
the of the body. But some of these internal organs
may demonstrate some hemorrhaging or some tissue damage, particularly the liver.
(47:46):
That's the only thing I can really think of you know,
and you know, her state of intoxication would be important
in nineteen thirty five, I'm not sure outside of the pathology,
just once he cuts into the body and goes, whoa,
there's a lot of ethanol, you know, on board, right,
I'm not sure what they were doing in terms of
(48:08):
measuring the amount of alcohol somebody had on board. And
you know, nineteen thirty five celebrity actress, you know, is
she abusing barbituates? Is she abusing you know, other recreational
drugs at the time, you know, so that could also
lead to this kind of mental state to where she
(48:29):
is now wandering up the hill, you know, stumbling up
the hill, you know, to get to the house where
she's doing something that she normally wouanted to do.
Speaker 1 (48:40):
Yeah, there are media reports, just in case somebody goes
digging around in this story. There were some media reports
that there was blood found in rolling in Thelma's apartment,
but I mean those were just media reports hers, you know,
journalism stuff, and the police never reported any of that.
And then you know, of course, what's always going to
come back is she wilt not have made that climb
(49:00):
up those steps. But never say never, right, I mean, really,
if you're motivated it just never say never. I mean,
we can't say conclusively. It's unlikely, and I know you
talk about that with victimology. It's unlikely, but it doesn't
mean that one night she didn't decide to do that.
There is a grand jury that convens on the case
for about a month. The grand jury foreman is a
(49:21):
guy named George Rochester, and he's kind of a grand
standard is what everybody thinks. Even though they already have
clear evidence from the autopsy that there's carbon monoxide poisoning,
he is insisting that the county chemist analyze her organs
for signs of poisoning. They do, and the report is
delayed for about a month, but there's nothing. And wouldn't
(49:42):
you think recreational drugs would have popped up on that
kind of a report?
Speaker 2 (49:45):
Also, you know, this is you know, this is an
era in which labs ability to screen for a broad
number of substances all at once just didn't exist. They
needed to be able to have an idea on what
to look for, yeah, and then utilize the analytical tools
(50:05):
they could to specifically look for maybe a class of
compounds if they're lucky, like there's different types of barbs
out there, but generally I would say that unless they
had an idea of what she was recreationally using, it's
very possible that they would have missed whatever was in
her system.
Speaker 1 (50:26):
Yeah, you know, I was thinking. I've done cases before
where there was a big question of whether or not
there was a suicide, specifically one in the nineteen thirties
around the corner from my house that I did for
a tenfold more wicked, where there was a young man
and he left the car running and it was nineteen
thirty five. He left the car running in the garage
and he said, well, I didn't even realize it was running.
(50:47):
And you know, I talked to somebody that said, no,
you would realize it's running. It's loud, it's not a
soft engine or anything. But you know, I was thinking,
how well educated were they in nineteen thirty five? Do
not closed the door, turn on your engine and let
it run. I don't know. I do know that in
twenty twenty one, when we had in Austin just the
(51:09):
most horrific set of snowstorms we've ever had that paralyzed
the city and it killed a lot of people, and
you know, We were not prepared because we don't get
snow down here. You know, our pipes are close to
the surface, our electrical lines are above ground, and we
you know, we're just nott We're not built for that.
There were a lot of people, Paul, who would run
(51:31):
little generators in the house. They were burning lacquered furniture
in the house because they didn't know. We didn't know
that that's what you're supposed to do. I did not,
thank goodness, but so I was just thinking, like, is
she likely to know this is a bad idea? The
chauffeur is insisting she wasn't drunk, and her friends are
not saying she was drunk, So I don't know. Otherwise,
(51:53):
what is the what is the answer? There's no visible
injuries really on her. If somebody locked her in the
car and then turned on the gas, she would have
been scraping and clawing and breaking glass and trying to
get out. It just doesn't make sense unless she truly
didn't know that this was a bad idea, trying to
get warm this way.
Speaker 2 (52:11):
And I lean probably a majority of the population, particularly
back in nineteen thirty five, probably weren't educated to the
dangers of car exhaust and the carbon monoxide poisoning. So
for me, I'm not surprised at all. You know that
she got into a vehicle, turned it on in sided
(52:31):
an enclosed garage, and the reason that she turned the
vehicle on, from my perspective, is she just wanted to
be warm that night. You know, she's in a mink coat,
you know, so that kind of suggests that it was chili.
Speaker 1 (52:45):
I still don't understand all of these eyewitnesses and Martha
Ford and all of this. I don't get it. Yeah,
I don't get it. I don't get it. And she's famous.
This is not just a normal person, a normal beautiful
blonde walking down the street. But you know, I think
you're right. I know you all all and we'll go
just back to the physical evidence, not eyewitness testimony and
victimology is important, but sometimes shit happens and people change
(53:07):
up what they're doing and you wouldn't expect it, but
they do. But really, there doesn't seem to be any
kind of real trauma when you look at it, so
you know, of course we'll never know, but this is
a pretty big mystery. This is one of those mysteries
in Hollywood. You know, this is a woman who obviously
was working very hard. She had a lot of promise.
These films are so fun that she put out, and
(53:30):
she just could have just accelerated and you know, maybe
she would get married and you know, have a lot
of things that were fulfilling to her. And it's just
awful that this is the way. It sounds like just
a lack of knowledge, not knowing anything about this. I'm
sure this did happen often, you know, sure, Well.
Speaker 2 (53:49):
You know, after this, I think I'm gonna have to
go and watch something on Thelma Toad.
Speaker 1 (53:56):
What did I look at? That was fun? There are
a bunch of them, but I think it was the
ten Minutes. Yeah, it was the ten minut and it
was cute. It was very lucile. There's actually on that
website there are some headshots of her with her co
star where they're very Lucy and Ethel before Lucy and Ethel's.
Speaker 2 (54:10):
So oh, very cool.
Speaker 1 (54:11):
I like that. Yeah, I like telling stories about women.
It's sad, particularly with Thelma Tood that she died, but
you know, it's nice to see a woman who has
a lot of independence in control, and it's nice even
though it ends badly. It's nice to be able to say,
these women have been here, working so hard for so long.
It's just good to see an example of it.
Speaker 2 (54:33):
Sure, I really appreciate you bringing this case to me.
Speaker 1 (54:36):
You're welcome. I can pretty much guarantee we're not talking
about Hollywood next week. Okay, I am not even pretty much.
I can say definitely going to do another Hollywood story.
It's just about six months off me trying to figure
this out, but we will have another compelling case next week.
Speaker 2 (54:51):
I'm looking forward to it me too. Thanks Paul, all right,
Thanks Kate.
Speaker 1 (55:00):
This has been an exactly right production.
Speaker 2 (55:02):
For our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot
com slash Buried Bones sources.
Speaker 1 (55:08):
Our senior producer is Alexis Mrosi.
Speaker 2 (55:11):
Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.
Speaker 1 (55:15):
Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.
Speaker 2 (55:18):
Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.
Speaker 1 (55:20):
Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.
Speaker 2 (55:22):
Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Danielle Kramer.
Speaker 1 (55:27):
You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at
buried Bones Pod.
Speaker 2 (55:32):
Kate's most recent book All That Is Wicked, a Gilded
Age story of murder and the race to decode the
criminal mind, is available now.
Speaker 1 (55:39):
And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's
cold cases, is also available now.
Speaker 2 (55:45):
Listen to Baried Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hosts And Creators
Kate Winkler Dawson
Paul Holes
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