June 21, 2022 • 41 mins
No one knows divorce like Laura Wasser.
Cheryl sits down with the well know attorney and asks her everything.
Laura Wasser is a LA-based attorney specializing in California Family Law. She attended the University of California, Berkeley and earned a law degree from Loyola Law School.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
This is Burke in the game and I heard radio podcast.
Hi Bear, I haven't seen you in a week or two.
It's been very lonely over here. I tell you what
you're You're making headlines left and right. Have you seen
that People magazine article? No. I actually purposefully had to
take myself off Google Alert because you know, it wasn't
(00:26):
easy to talk about any of this stuff. And I
was actually like, where is my podcast? Uncle at? Like
I actually would love the support because it feels really
lonely sometimes. And then I also get to so terrified
that I'll post it and then I just will purposely
like just not look because I'm so terrified about people's
judgments or comments. But it's been very supportive so far.
So everyone, Well, I tell I tell you what this
(00:48):
This was the very candid on the conversation um with
with the sex expert of the sex therapist, and you
talked about thereof you talked about every thing and and
and what about that? Because I think, I mean, I
think that's rare to talk about everything. Well, I I figured,
I mean, like I think with just even before doing
(01:09):
this podcast, I made a promise to myself that I
was just gonna be me, and I'm learning how to
be okay with just being me. And even if I
think certain questions or um my curiosities are stupid, that
I should know the answer to some of the of
these questions that are pretty basic, maybe maybe it's not,
you know, and I do believe that you know, a
(01:29):
lot of women, for example, I haven't had an orgasm
through intercourse before, Like it's not uncommon, and I actually
didn't know that. And I think it's very important that
we women feel like, Okay, well this is empowering, like
it's okay, I'm not the only weird one here that
hasn't had one, you know. And and well, since this
has already been out in the public sphere as it were,
(01:50):
have you heard reaction to that, to that part of
the show? Yeah, I mean so far, people that I've
everyone that I've admitted to, um they you know. Either
some people are like, well, you just haven't had the
right guy, and I'm like, again, but this has nothing
to do with anybody but me, right, But a lot
of women are like, I haven't at shoot you like,
(02:11):
I haven't had sex in fifteen years, and even if
when I did, I didn't really I guess experience it
and it's just starting the conversation and it's so uncomfortable.
Believe me, I'm sweating in places I shouldn't be even now,
but like it is really, it's just been society today.
I think it makes it so that, like women are are,
it's okay when a guy does it right for some reason,
it's like a cool thing, right, like you know, oh yeah,
(02:33):
you're you're you're a player or or you're weird, like
they're very judgmental. I feel like men, but actually some
men have commented and have been like okay, They're like
thanks for teaching me something new that like, you know,
a lot of us women fake it, and I'm definitely
one of them, you know, and I don't even Like
sometimes I wonder like, well, have I or have I
(02:53):
haven't I but I just have I know I haven't,
right like I'm sure I'll know when I know. And
I also know that I have lots of work to
do as far as vulnerability goes, you know, next time
I have it, which I don't know. I feel like
I'm a born again Catholic girl because it's been so long.
But like I also think that I want to hold
(03:14):
out on something when I'm ready, period, and and and
um with regard to that drought as it were, and
we we we started talking about this at the very beginning.
If Mr Wright or Mr right Now said Hey, would
you want to go out for lunch? Would you still
be unwilling to do that or willing to do that?
I'd be willing. Good. I don't know about lunch because again,
(03:38):
that takes a lot of time. Maybe a coffee and
a hike. Okay, all right, but I'm ready, I'm actually right.
I think I'm ready. I'm starry. I'm starting to get ready,
Like I'm at least saying the word ready. It doesn't
make me feel ill, all right, but that all right,
that represents to me like genuine progress because that has
not been the way for a while, right, And I
think that we are kind of man of like the
(04:00):
way we're talking about it. If it wasn't for this podcast,
I would have never talked about it. I would just
be drying up here in my own home. But like,
at least, you know, I think the conversation has made
me very curious. Like I'm also not opposed, I guess
to get onto this crazy dating app. Riya but I'm
just like, I'm still trying to avoid it. Okay, I'm
gonna probably try for another couple of weeks and then
given I think you'd be quite the hit on Ryan,
(04:23):
don't you. Well, first I need to get accepted, right,
isn't it a whole thing? Yeah? I think somehow you'd
get accepted, But well, I don't know. I don't know
what the criteria that they use. Um, what else do you?
I don't And I don't know if you can bullet
point this and maybe you can or you can. What
do you think you have learned so far from the
process of doing this or feedback from people or or
(04:44):
just in your own head. I've just learned so much
about my um the way that I think, but also
the process of being vulnerable, because I think in order
for me to get what I want out of this
podcast and vice versa, like, I had to really dig deep,
and I think for the first time, even in the
(05:06):
uncomfortable moments like admitting certain things that I have to
really truly speak from an vulnerable place without the fear
of judgment. And I think that this has helped me
just be me, Like you know, I am rough around
the edges. I am definitely messy. I'm definitely um. You know,
I don't get it right. I'm not perfect, and I
(05:27):
think that I've tried my whole life to be perfect.
And I think that I prefer the onion that I
am offering here, the different layers, and even if it
may look messy or god, this girl has tons of problems. Well,
you know what, on follow me. It's okay. Like, actually,
if you don't like the content I'm putting on or
if it's t M, I on follow me, and that's okay.
(05:48):
And I'm being I guess it's accepting that it's okay.
It's been a huge step. I saw Carrie in Anama
and Derk Huff the other day event, and so you see,
I think now that you have the time to process
all this a little bit. And and then when Dancing
with the Star starts up, and again people don't necessarily
(06:09):
know the lineups as we're talking right now. But assuming
you go forward with it this this time, I would
assume that takes up so much time it does, and
headspace an emotional space, this is a good time to
do all this before that'll rears up. Amen, Because and
I also think I'll be approaching if I do the
(06:29):
season differently as well, because you know, I think my
priorities have changed. But yes, it is very consuming, and
I will have to put not my mental health, but
like the dating whole thing, maybe on the backburner for
a little bit. But or do I not? Maybe I
don't need to obsess so much about the show. Maybe
I can find a balanced lifestyle somehow, which would be
beautiful to find. Well, there that that's a really, really
(06:51):
good goal. Who are we talking? Oh my gosh, I'm
so excited. Her name is Laura Wasser. She you know Laura. Sorry,
I can't even afford her, so but I have so
many questions. Um, so I'm so excited. She is basically
an author, entrepreneur, and family law expert with over twenty
(07:12):
years of experience and reps all the stars you can
possibly think of. Um and I am so excited. And
I don't know how much. If she's going to charge
me for the hour, I hope not. But I have
tons of questions for her. So let's bring her in. Hi,
(07:35):
how are you? How are you good? Welcome to the
podcast Burke in the Game. This is ah Me, Cheryl
Burke and then you've got Sam Reuben, how are you?
Thanks to you? Likewise good to see you. So I've
got tons of questions because I'm going through a divorce
right now, um currently and uh, we had a prenup
(07:55):
in place and everything. So We're just gonna get right
to it because I've heard such great interviews actually with you,
and I have so many different questions as to why
or is it worth getting a prenup in general and
does it even help with the process of the divorce.
So it does help, I believe if they're done well.
(08:16):
And California is a state cheryld did you get married
and was your prenup in California? Okay, So we are
a state who have very clear code sections and laws
regarding prenuptial agreements, and so as long as whoever has
drafted it and assigning it on behalf of the other person, um,
(08:37):
if if they it's here to the statutory requirements, then
we generally do uphold our prenuptial agreements, and so it
can be very helpful in terms of determining issues which
would otherwise be big ticket fighting issues like how much
arousal support or if what you earned during the marriage
remains your separate property or you have to share that
(08:59):
with your spouse, which to make a community property. Those
clear cut, easy to worse and easy to you know,
kind of translate. That's why I think they're good. Yeah,
And as far as an n d A goes in
a prenup which I have is so I know nd
as can be kind of I don't know b s.
I guess right. Some people say that like how far
(09:21):
does an NDA go? And what would what's the worst
that could possibly happen? Like, I am definitely not talking
about why we got divorced, right, and I would assume
that the other party wouldn't either, But um, it's more like, okay,
so how far can I go in this interview for example?
So usually, like in hours, they're not nds. We call
them confidentiality Okay. We'll often do a confidentiality agreement even
(09:45):
before we send the draft prenuptial agreement over because sometimes,
as you can imagine, people are like, I'm not down
with that, I'm not signing this prenuptial agreement, and now
you're left with all of this information that's been exchanged.
So we send a confidentiality agreement first agrees that whatever
is going to be discussed and exchange is confidential. Then
we also a provision in the agreement. And yes, there
(10:07):
is pushback because people say, well, I have a First
Amendment right to talk about my life. You can't preclude
me from talking about that. Usually, what we have our
confidentiality provisions in prenups and divorce judgments for that matter.
We have them pertained to things that are derogatory about
the other person, saying something mean about him or her,
and financial matters. You know, oh, he only made it much,
(10:29):
or I made this much, or I gave him this.
So those are the things we usually stick to. Talking
about your own personal experience and your that's allowed, and
that's what I'm doing here on the podcast right without.
I'm not bad mouthing him, nor do I want to
do that. Doesn't happen sometimes that people will in effect
try to embarrass one another. So I'm I'm making this
up completely. We won't even say Cheryl Debbie spends four
(10:53):
thousand a month on her hair, or you don't think things.
We're most normal people would think that's an outrageous expense. Yes,
I mean what happens is you will file this income
and expense declaration if you're asking for any amount of support,
and when you show what your expenses are, then I
guess the other person. What I see all the time
is people will file declarations which are meant for a
(11:14):
judicial officer to read. We don't have juries and family law,
so it's just one judge that's gonna be reading your
paperwork and then making a decision. And then what happens
is the media organization will pull out what you said
in your declaration. Can you believe Debbie, you takes four
thousand dollars a month to get her hair done? It
doesn't even look that good. And then all of a
sudden that becomes the quote on whatever the media organization
(11:38):
has put out there, and then it says he said this,
We only said it in a declaration that was meant
to be given to the court. So, yes, people try
to embarrass their spouses. Yes, people try to shape whatever
the narrative is that the judge is reading. And then
because the media will then pick that up and put
it in whatever context they want, that's how it kind
of gets fun. I think for some reason, I thought
with a prenup, like all of this ship was never
(11:59):
gonna happened right like I thought it was. So you know,
it's so clear cut. I guess you can say that
like there, well, what's the back and forth? Like it
should be pretty clear. I agree, I don't know what
the facts of your Yeah, no, and I obviously I
would love to talk to you privately, but yeah, it's
just that it is. It's confusing because you're like, you
spend all this money in the prenup, right, and you're like, okay,
(12:20):
it's long, very long, and lots of pages, and you
really feel like you've gone through all the detail of
like okay, this is it, Like there's nothing else to
talk about. It's done. But we can't include in prenups
and those have to do with child custody and child support,
so that we don't have discussion. But if you don't
have those dog currently a lot of attorneys doing lately
(12:45):
is challenging the prenup, but not really challenging the prenup
because if you've got like a prevailing party clause give
challenges prenup and I win, then you behaved, my attorneys toe.
So what you have as a loophole for that is
attorney saying we're not challenging it. We just don't think
that this part is very clear, and can we get
some clarification? And as I say all the time on
(13:06):
podcasts and two clients, the more you argue, the more
money the lawyers make. So let's just not talk about
the argue. How can it get really clear for you?
Do I have to throw a little bit of money
for clarification money, you understand, so that we're not paying
lawyers to file something with the cord, so that that
some judge who doesn't know as at all is now
(13:27):
going to clarify it for us. Do you find that ahead?
Does the circumstance exist the laura where you have a
prenup and then um one party's economic circumstances change. So
in other jurisdictions you look at the pre nuptial agreement
and its validity and forceability at the time of the
(13:49):
divorce hours we look at at the time that the
pre nup was drafted. Okay, so yes, there can be changes.
And the one thing that not the one thing, but
one of the things that can kind of throw a
hole through a prenup is unconscionability. So if when you
got married you had no money and you waved your
right to spousal support at all, and now you're flying
(14:10):
on private planes and you're going to five store resort
and you live in a fifteen thousand square foot house
and you would literally be living on the street. Your
lawyer could say, well, this is unconscionable, and I want
to discuss the waiver of the support provision. So we
usually in ours, we don't completely wave support unless the
people are kind of similarly situated. What we do is
we put a cap on support. You're not going to
(14:31):
be flying in a private plane, but you're going to
be living in a nice place that's somewhere close by
or whatever else. And then it's capped as to amount
and duration, and that sometimes will obviate the need for
somebody coming in and saying it's unconstonable because the circumstances
has changed so much. But you enter a prene up
in California, you're kind of place in a bet, which
(14:52):
is I'm I'm betting on myself to be able to
do what I need to do, and I'm betting on
our circumstances either to stay the same or me being
okay with them staying the same. If and when they
change a lot, and we get divorced. Now for the
emotional side of a prend up, it is I guess
it becomes like a business, like a contract, right, And
I think that takes all the romance away obviously, um,
(15:15):
and it becomes a little maybe uncomfortable. But I think
I believe it's important to have these important conversations. And um,
the communication, I mean that alone will definitely either have
you communicate or not. And I think that's a red
flag if it's not right. So how do people handle that? Well,
(15:36):
think about Okay, just the way you just said one,
communication is so important. If this is great that you
want to be with for the rest of the foreseeable
future and have kids with, if you're starting a family,
this is someone with whom we should be able to communicate.
Is it uncomfortable? Yeah, but guess what, so are a
lot of other things that happen and intimate romantic relationships.
So you better figure out tools for learning to communicate
(15:58):
through the discomfort. And highly one of the most interesting
things you said as well, it's a contract. Yeah, it's
a contract. So I was getting married harried, it's a protract.
You're just deciding with a prenup that you're opting out
of the contract rules that California State has given you
and you're making your own rules. Otherwise, you're getting married.
That's a contract. And when people get married and they
have the venue and the caterer and the florists, a contracts.
(16:23):
But the biggest contracts is the one that you're making
with the person you're marrying. And so to say this
isn't romantic, well, it may not be that romantic, but
we're entering either as childbirth. That's what I was gonna say,
So it's not romantic and he's gonna be there for that.
So right, this part when it comes to dogs, do
you is does California treat dogs like property? We did
(16:44):
until very recently there's been some changes where now instead
of just treating it like you know, the stapler, you
could look at pats not just dogs, cats, parent or whatever,
and you actually can make arguments about who the party
is that provided more support for the animal all and etcetera, etcetera,
And that will be taken into consideration. That is the
first time in the history of the Standard California that
(17:07):
that's been something that we've been willing to consider and
I think most judges still look at it as who
paid it for the dog, you know, and if it
was arrested whatever. So, and I have plenty of people
who come to me and they say, we have everything
worked out, but we just need you to advise us
about this schedule that we have for our dogs going
back and then in little Laura, when you hear that,
and I know, very important to me, very do you
(17:29):
roll your eyes. I don't own my eyes, daughter anymore,
because I've been doing this for so long. If you
do this, you can't judge. Everybody has their own stuff
going on and what's important to them. And at my
hourly rate, there's no I roll amen to that. I mean, honestly,
my dog is my daughter, like my furry daughter, and
might be my only kid that I ever have. I
(17:50):
don't I don't think I'm telling tales out of school.
But I once went to your office, uh, and you
said to me, and I'll never forget this, uh and
a very ice way you said that me and my
first you you were like, you're not angry enough and
you're not wealthy enough. But but do you think in
(18:13):
this sort of rarefied area which you practice, that they're
that people need to be mad like we were. We
really weren't mad at each other. We were just concluding, right, No,
I I well, I hope what I meant was that
you weren't angry enough, and you were wealthy enough to
like pay for us, like you didn't need us. You
did it in a way that made more sense. We
(18:34):
really really believe in resolution mediation, as I think. You know,
I have an online divorce platform that is now called
divorce dot Com where we really encourage people to try
to apply the law to their set of facts, having
a protracted legal battle litigation with the way our courts
are now and they were even before COVID, but they're
(18:56):
really badly now. And even if you pull it out
of the system and use private you to show officers
who are amazing. It's so expensive and not just financially expensive,
also emotionally expensive that you're better off figuring out a
way to resolve it. Like I said, to throw some
money at the problem isier pay your spouse as opposed
(19:16):
to paying lawyers and forensic accountants and private judges and
custody evaluators. So um, yeah, I really do think. I mean,
there's always going to be a need for family law attorneys. Absolutely,
I'm not, you know, cannibalizing my field, but the fact
is that the majority of people in this country probably
don't need lawyers and certainly don't need the right and
(19:40):
would you you know, like Okay, for instance, my ex
or soon to be ex husband, um we went to
therapy from even before we got engaged. Right, I'm a
huge advocate for therapy, and um so I kind of
forced him to come to therapy and I think it
really helped when it comes to communication, and it was
consistent throughout from beginning to end. Um So, when you
(20:00):
I feel like, when you reach the point where you've
done it all in that sense, right, and and then
you realize maybe you know what we've evolved and maybe
not together what I mean, and then you still have
this issue of like, okay, well maybe you know, the
communication may have to stop for a little bit, right
because this is just too much to handle. Do you
(20:22):
suggest I mean obviously hiring an attorney right at that
point when you feel like you've tried it all. I
think at that point, I mean, look again, I don't
know your situation. Sometimes it's a good idea to go
to a mediator that's to be able to talk to
you about the law. It serves kind of similar purposes
to the counselor, except this applies the law to the fact.
And then maybe you each get a consulting attorney that
(20:44):
nobody's like showing more pounding on their chest, but saying,
when you go to mediation next time, why don't you
mention this or this is what it is? You kind
of you try to really distill whatever the remaining issues
are and figure it out. And yes, if you get
to a point where you really cannot work with each
other's speak to each other, if it's a point in
your relationship and hopefully you'll get past this, but that
(21:04):
it's more harmful than beneficial, then yeah, then you get
a mouthpiece. You get your advocate, hopefully one who says
right off the bat, I'm a settler, I want to
settle this, and I hope we never go to court.
Hopefully that's what he gets to. You want two attorneys
that play well together. If in the first round you're
seeing these nasty letters going back and forth, that's bad
because now you lawyers that are in a pissing contest
(21:26):
with each other at your expense. Maybe this isn't a
good fit. Let me find somebody else. You know, always
try to figure out a way that's going to lead
to the path of an eventual settlement, and you will
get it done lord with with a website such as yours.
Let's just will numerically apply a number. Let's say it
is a step ten step process or fifteen step process.
(21:47):
Could you accomplish the first ten steps online and then
bring that partially completed case you're nodding to an attorney, absolutely,
you absolutely could do that. We make it so that
it's easy. We provide you with the forms, we help
you fill out the form. I mean, what I always
think would make me crazy if I was a client
is to be paying some huge hourly rate for somebody
to keep writing my name on every form. And usually
(22:09):
our assistants do that. But still there's a cheaper right now.
So how about we feel this a lot? And then
you hit a wall. Maybe you figure out absolutely everything,
But the one thing you can't figure out is this
one script that I wrote in and it's been at
this production company forever. But if anything ever happens, how
much of it is community property? How much? So either
you let the court reserve jurisdiction over that and you
(22:30):
get everything else done, or you handle a mediator or
two lawyers or something just to work through that issue.
Insert that into the judgment. Paperwork that you guys haven't
get it done. Have you ever experienced, um, a couple
getting divorced that maybe one's a procrastinator and one isn't
and you just want to get it done, and maybe
they want to threaten by how do you speed up
(22:52):
the process, Like, I'm you have to be patient, and yes,
I can sense what's happening here what I don't know
what we're talking about. One person wants to get it down,
the other wondering. There's a learning curve on these things.
Generally one or the other will be like I'm out,
and the other ones like wait, hold on. You have
to be a little patient. Keep in mind, California has
a six month waiting period anyway, regardless of regardless of
(23:16):
a prenup, it takes six months to be able to
process that paperwork. Figure it out that way. So I
have people that come in and they're like, here, this
is our agreement, it's done, we signed it, file the paperwork,
get it done and I'm like, Okay, I'll talk to
you in six months. It's like, what do you mean.
And by the way, it's not just six months anymore,
because we're so bogged down and that it takes a
while for judges to read through them or the clerks
(23:37):
and actually stamp them or bless them or whatever. So
slow your role. Give it a second. I don't know
what you're talking about. So I'm talking to the hypothetical
Yeah my friend, Okay, cool, asking for a friend, friend,
and just and and take into consider. I say to
people all the time, they're like, but I need to
be divorced, and I'm like, in your divorce, I mean,
in California, unless you're super religious, you can eight you
(24:00):
can have sex with other people. Only that ain't happening.
We already know that. Yeah, okay. The only thing you
can't do before your divorce is final by the court
is get married and file as those are the only
two things. So now divorce yourself from the notion of
needing to be divorced and just kind of sit with
the process while the other person used to the idea
(24:21):
because eventually he or she will and then you'll be
in a much better place. To be talking about resolution
as opposed to this push pull of well, I don't
even know if I really want to get divorced, and
the more you want to get divorced, the more I'm
gonna pull back and make it difficult. So now you go,
you know what, when you're ready, give me a cop
And then Laura because obviously very complished journey, but I
(24:41):
think probably very likely part time psychologist as well. Is
there And just when I hear you talk, is there
a gender divide in that? When this is how it's
always been explained to me, The men are always hoping,
you know what, we can figure this out, and for
women it's like a candlelight and if it goes out,
it out, and once it's out, they're done. I think
(25:05):
sometimes that's the case, but I've seen plenty of men
who are like, this is a business transaction. I've moved
on or I'm done or whatever, and the women are
still kind of like lost and not sure and don't know.
There has been the past, as I'm sure you guys
would agree, been a lot more kind of um economic pressure.
Men are the earners women are. That's completely changed now.
(25:27):
Usually the person who makes the money is the person
who wants to get it over with. And again that's
not just because of the economics, it's also because that person,
if they're a breadwinner, usually approaches more of a business
minded way, whereas the other person doesn't think in a
business minded way. They think more emotionally. But I definitely
(25:48):
don't want to continue spending money with the divorce attorney,
right if you don't have to say that's and so yeah,
you're you're, you know, clocking every hour that you're talking
to the divorce attorney and that your spouses talking to
his or heard of wars attorney because you're probably paying
for that too, so much more transactional, and there's not
necessarily anything wrong with that. But what you don't want
to do is get into spending throwing good money after
(26:10):
bad because you're trying to convince the other person to
give them a second to kind of process and digest.
Know that you're already there and you gotta wait for
them to catch up a little bit, probably like you
did in your marriage too, right, right, right, right, right? Um,
So as far as insurance goes, right, so let's say
one person, one party is paying for the insurance or
they they're under their insurance. Right, Um, is it true
(26:33):
that you don't want to um take them off your
insurance because you're technically still married, right, like if something
were to happen. Is that correct? Well? Also, once once
a divorce petition is filed, what's called automatic temporary restraining
orders go in place, and those preclude you from canceling
any insurance policies or changing any policies, because again, what
(26:56):
the state wants to make sure of is that the
state doesn't get left holding the bag for this stuff.
So they don't want to pay for people that would
otherwise be getting spousal support. They don't want to pay
for damages which would otherwise be covered by insurance policies,
stuff like that. So you really can't change it until
the divorce is final, once the petition has been fired. Lord,
this is an old fashioned phrase. Does does bad behavior
(27:19):
matter anymore? You know, the the spouse and the pool boy,
the wife and the secretary, all that kind of stuff.
Is that completely irrelevant? California, California, So it's supposed to
be completely irrelevant. Um. You know, it's hard to put
the toothpastes back in the tube when it's out there,
but most judicial officers are like, I don't want to
hear about that, but it's done. All this stuff, it
(27:41):
doesn't matter. Sometimes it will come into play when you're
talking about kids. Um still extra marital affairs not so much,
but yes, you know, drug abuse use abuse is a
totally different story. If there's been domestic violence, that will
definitely sway and it could certainly affect awards of support
because if you've been and no abuse that you're not
(28:01):
able to get back into the workplace, then you might
actually get more support, which is why we have people
unfortunately making false allegations of abuse. Right about that too,
right now when you were talking about that. So I guess,
is it black or white like that, or is it
is maybe emotional abuse was in play or like what's
the difference between I guess with how the court interprets it,
(28:23):
between emotional versus of physical. Well, I mean it depends
if you first you have to have a court actually
say that there was domestic violence. You have to make
a finding of domestic violence. And we are getting into
waters where things like emotional abuse, very volatile text messages,
threats could actually be as interpreted as a negative. As
(28:47):
you know, an actual hit, or a blocking of of
an entryway. So those things do way. Um I we
tell all of our clients to really be very careful
about what they write and what they say, and certainly
what they do. But even sometimes um financial pressure if
you do this, I'm not giving you any more money
has at times been interpreted as oh, that's such an
(29:09):
that's such an economic threat. That could cause emotional distress. Also,
we're seeing all kinds of things happening with people putting
things online. If you post a picture of your spouse
with her boyfriend and you send it to the entire
fourth grade, that could be emotionally abusive to her because
it's so embarrassing and all of the other class moms
(29:30):
would think that she was a slut. You know, I
think good being here is important. Do you find that
that kind of thing which you just described, does that
influence settlements? I know it's not supposed to. Does it
influence settlements? Settlements or or you know, in other words,
(29:51):
were sometimes people are battling after the you know, hey
we've split up, but you're being you're embarrassing me, or
you're really being a jerk, so I'm gonna ask for more,
or you know that kind of thing sort of stuff, right,
Judges don't like it, and to what the to the
officers of the court, the lawyers, they're like, can you
not do anything about this? Are you really coming in
here and tattling on the person? Just take care of it. Um. Certainly,
(30:15):
judges don't like to award additional sanctions or fees, you know,
if if they don't need to. But if somebody is
really behaving poorly and you have to come to court
to stop that behavior, then yes, I mean, you don't
want to make a bad impression in front of a
judge no matter what. Right and this is all public knowledge. Everything,
it's a public Aren't you trying to fight that? Yeah?
(30:39):
That system? Are we trying to fight the system? Because
I'm on your team if we? If you are. You know,
in my next life, I had to I had to
pick a road at one point, and I decided that
I was going to go for you know, bringing more
affordable resolution oriented divorce to the public as opposed to
legislative means to keeping right, so they were attainable us
(31:00):
as you know torch to carry. Yeah, no, does it
matter now where I guess in the United States, you
get married. Is there some like Virginia? Yeah, oh yeah,
And it's really interesting. I'm in this group right now
with it's all female attorneys and we're from all different jurisdictions.
We do all high net worth kind of cases, and
(31:21):
we each present once every couple of months. And yes,
it definitely matters. It's not where you get married, it's
where you live. Okay, so you can get married in Virginia,
but if you live in California, if you've met our
residency requirements if six months, this is where you file
and this is where you will get our super yummy
big child's abort, big spousal support, community property, which is
(31:43):
half of everything. So yeah, we have a lot of
people that do what's called forum shopping. They would much
rather be here. So they're like, honey, can I go
live in Malibu for this summer and then they sleep
for the next three months and then Fami, they get
pregnant in Malibu please, and then you have my baby.
There a lot of people like to have babies in California,
that's for sure. That's so interesting, all right. Just on
the other side of that, where's the if California is
(32:06):
the most generous, where's the least generous. Oh totally, I
could totally secause they're like, here's a pen, good luck.
So I guess rewind here a little bit. I mean
before the divorce, I what is the number one reason?
Is it communication that couples get divorced? Is it something
that is Uh? Do you ever find that you're the
(32:27):
middleman in a way where you're like, let's just talk
it out here and then you're like, okay, we're good
and then they come back and then you want to
get a divorce or they end up working it out,
or are they divorced and then marry again? Like is
it have you had all of different types, had all
different types just get married again? People that are getting divorced.
And I've actually waited in a courtroom for my client
(32:47):
once everything was seinfeld and delivered and we were just
entering with the cord and my my opposing counsel was
waiting for her client and we're standing there and we're
waiting and we're texting and nobody's answering, and the two
of them show up devil in the doing it one
last time. Oh my human nature is kind, I know.
(33:08):
And then I ran intom a couple years later, I'm like,
do you still see a He's like, that was the
last time last bag. I was like, okay, but yeah,
I've seen a lot of different things. People handle this
situation very differently, and a lot of times you see
really great people behaving really poorly. And then sometimes you
see really people that otherwise have not been so fantastic
(33:31):
in their marriages somehow grow a conscience or become very
compassionate to their accent. Or there's people that we've you know,
we've done their divorces and then they've come back and
we've done their prenups, and it's interesting to see how
they approach leaving a relationship as opposed to getting into one.
But to answer your question, I think, yeah, poor communication
and just growing apart. You know, you get married, and
(33:52):
back in the day when they created the phrase till
death do as part people only live till they were
like thirty five, that made sense. But now we live
so much longer and we've so much more in our
lives that it would make a lot of sense that
if you get married young, you know, twenty years in
when you're only forty, all of a sudden you look
at the person next to you now your kids have
left for college, and you're like, who even are you?
And what do I want your six pack? Well know,
(34:15):
maybe sex, so there's only four you. But I said,
have life out of me and we've just grown in
such different directions. So yeah, whether it's infidelity or financial
issues or people say, oh is if you're redoing a house,
that's for sure when you're going to get divorced, all
of those things because people get you know, you're displaced
and yeah, and you have no control. So I have
(34:37):
seen a lot of people come in after, you know,
after they be done a house. That's interesting and they're like,
I'm done with you. But it really all of that
boils down to the fact that they didn't have good
communication tools, that they didn't employ those tools as they
were going through what is a difficult time. But but
do you think again, you're have a ringside seat and
(34:58):
are sort of an expert on this. Of all the
things you cited, it occurs to me that that long
living is the greatest culprit that that in other words,
marriage was designed very likely as an institution for people
who didn't, you know, live as a married couple for
more than x number of years and also at a
(35:18):
time when marriages were really transactional. You take my daughter
and you have feed her and the child the offspring
you guys have and I'll give you six goats. I mean,
it wasn't had nothing to do with love. That's why
you had arrangement with currency back then. And then it
kind of moved more into security. Women went straight from
you know, going to high school, then moving straight in
(35:40):
with their husbands, and then women started going to college.
So you went from your high school to your sorority
to your husband. And that was what we did because
we couldn't live with our parents for the rest of
our lives because they were going to die. So we
were gonna find somebody else with him to procreate and
that would protect us. And now you have all of
these changing things that happened, but you've still got this,
in my opinion, fairly antiquated, you know, marriage thing. And
(36:03):
so I truly believe that you should be with somebody
who is able to make you better and you make
them better and you grow together. And if you stopped
growing together, that's when you kind of classes. Do you
believe in marriage? Cause I know you've been married before.
When you were younger. Yeah, I believe in marriage. For
some people I believe so that I don't. I don't
believe in marriage. Right, we understand why it exists. Thank god,
(36:24):
that's why I have a roof over. Thank God. You
got it out of your system too, like I did. Yeah. Well,
I got married when I was twenty five and I
was only married for about fourteen months. But I always say, like,
why would I ever do it again? I'll never have
better living udding pictures than when I was and at
the bel Air Hotel. Right, that's amazing. Might as well
do it up? Lord? Do do post nuptial agreements exist
(36:46):
or is that? Is that something you would advise or
what's your thought on that? Um? It depends. I think
if there's been some kind of a change in your circumstances,
whether you have a prenup and now you're doing a
post up, or something happens during the course of the
marriage to warrant a a snuptual agreement necessary, then yes.
The reason their difficult is because you've already gone a
certain period of time being married. So you've got that
(37:07):
one contract under the state of California's laws, and now you,
I guess, are trying to figure out a way to
change things going forward. You don't want to have a postnup,
which is basically just pre negotiating your divorce that you
are already wet and getting and you have the same
disclosure requirements that you would have if you were going
to do a prenup. Everything has to be out on
the table. So what we sometimes have is a couple
(37:30):
that comes in and they've been married a long period
of time, and one or the other has all of
the financial information, controls the finances, makes the money. The
other has no idea about it, and he or she
is not terribly forthcoming with the information. So the person
that wants information is, look, you've got two choice. We
get divorced. I'm entitled to see absolutely everything. If you
don't want to get divorced, open up the kimono. I
(37:51):
want to see everything, and then we'll decide whether we're
gonna stay married. But I need that some disclosure happening here.
And so yeah, they do work. I mean they have
also very very stringent statutory guidelines for what would make
them enforceable and valid, and we see them not as often,
but we do see them. Last question, is it easier
to have separate bank accounts. Like, um, if you go
(38:12):
into it with like, okay, well everything is like mine
is mine, yours is yours. Um, there and there shouldn't.
What's the fight about? No, if you have a prenup
that says it. I have people that come to me
and they say, look, we always kept everything separate, so
it should be separate. Like the problem is you've been
having dollars into separate accounts for ten years. I mean.
And if they're willing to agree, that's fine, but often
(38:32):
you then have to do a little bit of untangling.
M I hear you. Okay, my goodness, I hope I'll
show you an hour. I'm kidding. Okay, Well, thank you
so much for your time. You are yeah, you are amazing.
You are you are truly amazing, and um, maybe my
next divorce, don't kidding. Just give me a favor. Breath, relaxed,
(38:58):
it's all gonna be okay. You don't have a choice,
get through this and you just have to like let
it play out and then it will be good. And
tell your hypothetical friend the same thing. Oh, I will
thank you for the advice, Laura. Thank you so much.
By all right. Thanks to Laura Wasser for all of
(39:23):
her free advice. UM. We got lots of responses from
listeners from episode six is question of the week, which
was why is it easier to be mean to ourselves
rather than nice? Um? We got tons of feedback, but
the theme across all answers was because we are constantly
comparing ourselves to others, that is the devil and I
couldn't agree more. Um, I definitely struggle with comparison. I
(39:44):
think that it's just in my nature because of ballroom
dancing and um, in competitions, like how we are being
literally compared to the other couple that's dancing next to us,
and same thing on Dancing with the Stars, right, So, like, yes,
I do fall into that dark hole a lot of comparison,
and I have to remember, you know that we're also
we're all the same, yet we're all very different and
(40:06):
it's hard to compare. You can't compare anyone's divorce, you
can't compare anyone's relationship or love or or dance moves. Right, Like,
we're all our own person and we have to embrace that.
But it's so much easier said than done. So anyway,
at the end of every episode, we need to ask
basically all of you the listeners, the question of the week,
So are you ready? The questions plural are what are
(40:28):
some ways to prevent divorce early on? And what is
the secret to a long lasting marriage? I definitely want
to know some of your answers, so please we want
to hear from you. Please email us at burke in
the Game at I heart radio dot com or d
m us on Instagram at burke in the Game. See
you next time. Thanks for listening and coming along this
journey with me. If you like what you hear, then
(40:49):
feel free to give this podcast five stars. You can
also follow along with my journey on Instagram at burke
in the Game and if you have any advice or
want to write in, then email me at burke in
the Game at I Heart radio dot
This is Burke in the game and I heard radio podcast.
Hi Bear, I haven't seen you in a week or two.
It's been very lonely over here. I tell you what
you're You're making headlines left and right. Have you seen
that People magazine article? No. I actually purposefully had to
take myself off Google Alert because you know, it wasn't
(00:26):
easy to talk about any of this stuff. And I
was actually like, where is my podcast? Uncle at? Like
I actually would love the support because it feels really
lonely sometimes. And then I also get to so terrified
that I'll post it and then I just will purposely
like just not look because I'm so terrified about people's
judgments or comments. But it's been very supportive so far.
So everyone, Well, I tell I tell you what this
(00:48):
This was the very candid on the conversation um with
with the sex expert of the sex therapist, and you
talked about thereof you talked about every thing and and
and what about that? Because I think, I mean, I
think that's rare to talk about everything. Well, I I figured,
I mean, like I think with just even before doing
(01:09):
this podcast, I made a promise to myself that I
was just gonna be me, and I'm learning how to
be okay with just being me. And even if I
think certain questions or um my curiosities are stupid, that
I should know the answer to some of the of
these questions that are pretty basic, maybe maybe it's not,
you know, and I do believe that you know, a
(01:29):
lot of women, for example, I haven't had an orgasm
through intercourse before, Like it's not uncommon, and I actually
didn't know that. And I think it's very important that
we women feel like, Okay, well this is empowering, like
it's okay, I'm not the only weird one here that
hasn't had one, you know. And and well, since this
has already been out in the public sphere as it were,
(01:50):
have you heard reaction to that, to that part of
the show? Yeah, I mean so far, people that I've
everyone that I've admitted to, um they you know. Either
some people are like, well, you just haven't had the
right guy, and I'm like, again, but this has nothing
to do with anybody but me, right, But a lot
of women are like, I haven't at shoot you like,
(02:11):
I haven't had sex in fifteen years, and even if
when I did, I didn't really I guess experience it
and it's just starting the conversation and it's so uncomfortable.
Believe me, I'm sweating in places I shouldn't be even now,
but like it is really, it's just been society today.
I think it makes it so that, like women are are,
it's okay when a guy does it right for some reason,
it's like a cool thing, right, like you know, oh yeah,
(02:33):
you're you're you're a player or or you're weird, like
they're very judgmental. I feel like men, but actually some
men have commented and have been like okay, They're like
thanks for teaching me something new that like, you know,
a lot of us women fake it, and I'm definitely
one of them, you know, and I don't even Like
sometimes I wonder like, well, have I or have I
(02:53):
haven't I but I just have I know I haven't,
right like I'm sure I'll know when I know. And
I also know that I have lots of work to
do as far as vulnerability goes, you know, next time
I have it, which I don't know. I feel like
I'm a born again Catholic girl because it's been so long.
But like I also think that I want to hold
(03:14):
out on something when I'm ready, period, and and and
um with regard to that drought as it were, and
we we we started talking about this at the very beginning.
If Mr Wright or Mr right Now said Hey, would
you want to go out for lunch? Would you still
be unwilling to do that or willing to do that?
I'd be willing. Good. I don't know about lunch because again,
(03:38):
that takes a lot of time. Maybe a coffee and
a hike. Okay, all right, but I'm ready, I'm actually right.
I think I'm ready. I'm starry. I'm starting to get ready,
Like I'm at least saying the word ready. It doesn't
make me feel ill, all right, but that all right,
that represents to me like genuine progress because that has
not been the way for a while, right, And I
think that we are kind of man of like the
(04:00):
way we're talking about it. If it wasn't for this podcast,
I would have never talked about it. I would just
be drying up here in my own home. But like,
at least, you know, I think the conversation has made
me very curious. Like I'm also not opposed, I guess
to get onto this crazy dating app. Riya but I'm
just like, I'm still trying to avoid it. Okay, I'm
gonna probably try for another couple of weeks and then
given I think you'd be quite the hit on Ryan,
(04:23):
don't you. Well, first I need to get accepted, right,
isn't it a whole thing? Yeah? I think somehow you'd
get accepted, But well, I don't know. I don't know
what the criteria that they use. Um, what else do you?
I don't And I don't know if you can bullet
point this and maybe you can or you can. What
do you think you have learned so far from the
process of doing this or feedback from people or or
(04:44):
just in your own head. I've just learned so much
about my um the way that I think, but also
the process of being vulnerable, because I think in order
for me to get what I want out of this
podcast and vice versa, like, I had to really dig deep,
and I think for the first time, even in the
(05:06):
uncomfortable moments like admitting certain things that I have to
really truly speak from an vulnerable place without the fear
of judgment. And I think that this has helped me
just be me, Like you know, I am rough around
the edges. I am definitely messy. I'm definitely um. You know,
I don't get it right. I'm not perfect, and I
(05:27):
think that I've tried my whole life to be perfect.
And I think that I prefer the onion that I
am offering here, the different layers, and even if it
may look messy or god, this girl has tons of problems. Well,
you know what, on follow me. It's okay. Like, actually,
if you don't like the content I'm putting on or
if it's t M, I on follow me, and that's okay.
(05:48):
And I'm being I guess it's accepting that it's okay.
It's been a huge step. I saw Carrie in Anama
and Derk Huff the other day event, and so you see,
I think now that you have the time to process
all this a little bit. And and then when Dancing
with the Star starts up, and again people don't necessarily
(06:09):
know the lineups as we're talking right now. But assuming
you go forward with it this this time, I would
assume that takes up so much time it does, and
headspace an emotional space, this is a good time to
do all this before that'll rears up. Amen, Because and
I also think I'll be approaching if I do the
(06:29):
season differently as well, because you know, I think my
priorities have changed. But yes, it is very consuming, and
I will have to put not my mental health, but
like the dating whole thing, maybe on the backburner for
a little bit. But or do I not? Maybe I
don't need to obsess so much about the show. Maybe
I can find a balanced lifestyle somehow, which would be
beautiful to find. Well, there that that's a really, really
(06:51):
good goal. Who are we talking? Oh my gosh, I'm
so excited. Her name is Laura Wasser. She you know Laura. Sorry,
I can't even afford her, so but I have so
many questions. Um, so I'm so excited. She is basically
an author, entrepreneur, and family law expert with over twenty
(07:12):
years of experience and reps all the stars you can
possibly think of. Um and I am so excited. And
I don't know how much. If she's going to charge
me for the hour, I hope not. But I have
tons of questions for her. So let's bring her in. Hi,
(07:35):
how are you? How are you good? Welcome to the
podcast Burke in the Game. This is ah Me, Cheryl
Burke and then you've got Sam Reuben, how are you?
Thanks to you? Likewise good to see you. So I've
got tons of questions because I'm going through a divorce
right now, um currently and uh, we had a prenup
(07:55):
in place and everything. So We're just gonna get right
to it because I've heard such great interviews actually with you,
and I have so many different questions as to why
or is it worth getting a prenup in general and
does it even help with the process of the divorce.
So it does help, I believe if they're done well.
(08:16):
And California is a state cheryld did you get married
and was your prenup in California? Okay, So we are
a state who have very clear code sections and laws
regarding prenuptial agreements, and so as long as whoever has
drafted it and assigning it on behalf of the other person, um,
(08:37):
if if they it's here to the statutory requirements, then
we generally do uphold our prenuptial agreements, and so it
can be very helpful in terms of determining issues which
would otherwise be big ticket fighting issues like how much
arousal support or if what you earned during the marriage
remains your separate property or you have to share that
(08:59):
with your spouse, which to make a community property. Those
clear cut, easy to worse and easy to you know,
kind of translate. That's why I think they're good. Yeah,
And as far as an n d A goes in
a prenup which I have is so I know nd
as can be kind of I don't know b s.
I guess right. Some people say that like how far
(09:21):
does an NDA go? And what would what's the worst
that could possibly happen? Like, I am definitely not talking
about why we got divorced, right, and I would assume
that the other party wouldn't either, But um, it's more like, okay,
so how far can I go in this interview for example?
So usually, like in hours, they're not nds. We call
them confidentiality Okay. We'll often do a confidentiality agreement even
(09:45):
before we send the draft prenuptial agreement over because sometimes,
as you can imagine, people are like, I'm not down
with that, I'm not signing this prenuptial agreement, and now
you're left with all of this information that's been exchanged.
So we send a confidentiality agreement first agrees that whatever
is going to be discussed and exchange is confidential. Then
we also a provision in the agreement. And yes, there
(10:07):
is pushback because people say, well, I have a First
Amendment right to talk about my life. You can't preclude
me from talking about that. Usually, what we have our
confidentiality provisions in prenups and divorce judgments for that matter.
We have them pertained to things that are derogatory about
the other person, saying something mean about him or her,
and financial matters. You know, oh, he only made it much,
(10:29):
or I made this much, or I gave him this.
So those are the things we usually stick to. Talking
about your own personal experience and your that's allowed, and
that's what I'm doing here on the podcast right without.
I'm not bad mouthing him, nor do I want to
do that. Doesn't happen sometimes that people will in effect
try to embarrass one another. So I'm I'm making this
up completely. We won't even say Cheryl Debbie spends four
(10:53):
thousand a month on her hair, or you don't think things.
We're most normal people would think that's an outrageous expense. Yes,
I mean what happens is you will file this income
and expense declaration if you're asking for any amount of support,
and when you show what your expenses are, then I
guess the other person. What I see all the time
is people will file declarations which are meant for a
(11:14):
judicial officer to read. We don't have juries and family law,
so it's just one judge that's gonna be reading your
paperwork and then making a decision. And then what happens
is the media organization will pull out what you said
in your declaration. Can you believe Debbie, you takes four
thousand dollars a month to get her hair done? It
doesn't even look that good. And then all of a
sudden that becomes the quote on whatever the media organization
(11:38):
has put out there, and then it says he said this,
We only said it in a declaration that was meant
to be given to the court. So, yes, people try
to embarrass their spouses. Yes, people try to shape whatever
the narrative is that the judge is reading. And then
because the media will then pick that up and put
it in whatever context they want, that's how it kind
of gets fun. I think for some reason, I thought
with a prenup, like all of this ship was never
(11:59):
gonna happened right like I thought it was. So you know,
it's so clear cut. I guess you can say that
like there, well, what's the back and forth? Like it
should be pretty clear. I agree, I don't know what
the facts of your Yeah, no, and I obviously I
would love to talk to you privately, but yeah, it's
just that it is. It's confusing because you're like, you
spend all this money in the prenup, right, and you're like, okay,
(12:20):
it's long, very long, and lots of pages, and you
really feel like you've gone through all the detail of
like okay, this is it, Like there's nothing else to
talk about. It's done. But we can't include in prenups
and those have to do with child custody and child support,
so that we don't have discussion. But if you don't
have those dog currently a lot of attorneys doing lately
(12:45):
is challenging the prenup, but not really challenging the prenup
because if you've got like a prevailing party clause give
challenges prenup and I win, then you behaved, my attorneys toe.
So what you have as a loophole for that is
attorney saying we're not challenging it. We just don't think
that this part is very clear, and can we get
some clarification? And as I say all the time on
(13:06):
podcasts and two clients, the more you argue, the more
money the lawyers make. So let's just not talk about
the argue. How can it get really clear for you?
Do I have to throw a little bit of money
for clarification money, you understand, so that we're not paying
lawyers to file something with the cord, so that that
some judge who doesn't know as at all is now
(13:27):
going to clarify it for us. Do you find that ahead?
Does the circumstance exist the laura where you have a
prenup and then um one party's economic circumstances change. So
in other jurisdictions you look at the pre nuptial agreement
and its validity and forceability at the time of the
(13:49):
divorce hours we look at at the time that the
pre nup was drafted. Okay, so yes, there can be changes.
And the one thing that not the one thing, but
one of the things that can kind of throw a
hole through a prenup is unconscionability. So if when you
got married you had no money and you waved your
right to spousal support at all, and now you're flying
(14:10):
on private planes and you're going to five store resort
and you live in a fifteen thousand square foot house
and you would literally be living on the street. Your
lawyer could say, well, this is unconscionable, and I want
to discuss the waiver of the support provision. So we
usually in ours, we don't completely wave support unless the
people are kind of similarly situated. What we do is
we put a cap on support. You're not going to
(14:31):
be flying in a private plane, but you're going to
be living in a nice place that's somewhere close by
or whatever else. And then it's capped as to amount
and duration, and that sometimes will obviate the need for
somebody coming in and saying it's unconstonable because the circumstances
has changed so much. But you enter a prene up
in California, you're kind of place in a bet, which
(14:52):
is I'm I'm betting on myself to be able to
do what I need to do, and I'm betting on
our circumstances either to stay the same or me being
okay with them staying the same. If and when they
change a lot, and we get divorced. Now for the
emotional side of a prend up, it is I guess
it becomes like a business, like a contract, right, And
I think that takes all the romance away obviously, um,
(15:15):
and it becomes a little maybe uncomfortable. But I think
I believe it's important to have these important conversations. And um,
the communication, I mean that alone will definitely either have
you communicate or not. And I think that's a red
flag if it's not right. So how do people handle that? Well,
(15:36):
think about Okay, just the way you just said one,
communication is so important. If this is great that you
want to be with for the rest of the foreseeable
future and have kids with, if you're starting a family,
this is someone with whom we should be able to communicate.
Is it uncomfortable? Yeah, but guess what, so are a
lot of other things that happen and intimate romantic relationships.
So you better figure out tools for learning to communicate
(15:58):
through the discomfort. And highly one of the most interesting
things you said as well, it's a contract. Yeah, it's
a contract. So I was getting married harried, it's a protract.
You're just deciding with a prenup that you're opting out
of the contract rules that California State has given you
and you're making your own rules. Otherwise, you're getting married.
That's a contract. And when people get married and they
have the venue and the caterer and the florists, a contracts.
(16:23):
But the biggest contracts is the one that you're making
with the person you're marrying. And so to say this
isn't romantic, well, it may not be that romantic, but
we're entering either as childbirth. That's what I was gonna say,
So it's not romantic and he's gonna be there for that.
So right, this part when it comes to dogs, do
you is does California treat dogs like property? We did
(16:44):
until very recently there's been some changes where now instead
of just treating it like you know, the stapler, you
could look at pats not just dogs, cats, parent or whatever,
and you actually can make arguments about who the party
is that provided more support for the animal all and etcetera, etcetera,
And that will be taken into consideration. That is the
first time in the history of the Standard California that
(17:07):
that's been something that we've been willing to consider and
I think most judges still look at it as who
paid it for the dog, you know, and if it
was arrested whatever. So, and I have plenty of people
who come to me and they say, we have everything
worked out, but we just need you to advise us
about this schedule that we have for our dogs going
back and then in little Laura, when you hear that,
and I know, very important to me, very do you
(17:29):
roll your eyes. I don't own my eyes, daughter anymore,
because I've been doing this for so long. If you
do this, you can't judge. Everybody has their own stuff
going on and what's important to them. And at my
hourly rate, there's no I roll amen to that. I mean, honestly,
my dog is my daughter, like my furry daughter, and
might be my only kid that I ever have. I
(17:50):
don't I don't think I'm telling tales out of school.
But I once went to your office, uh, and you
said to me, and I'll never forget this, uh and
a very ice way you said that me and my
first you you were like, you're not angry enough and
you're not wealthy enough. But but do you think in
(18:13):
this sort of rarefied area which you practice, that they're
that people need to be mad like we were. We
really weren't mad at each other. We were just concluding, right, No,
I I well, I hope what I meant was that
you weren't angry enough, and you were wealthy enough to
like pay for us, like you didn't need us. You
did it in a way that made more sense. We
(18:34):
really really believe in resolution mediation, as I think. You know,
I have an online divorce platform that is now called
divorce dot Com where we really encourage people to try
to apply the law to their set of facts, having
a protracted legal battle litigation with the way our courts
are now and they were even before COVID, but they're
(18:56):
really badly now. And even if you pull it out
of the system and use private you to show officers
who are amazing. It's so expensive and not just financially expensive,
also emotionally expensive that you're better off figuring out a
way to resolve it. Like I said, to throw some
money at the problem isier pay your spouse as opposed
(19:16):
to paying lawyers and forensic accountants and private judges and
custody evaluators. So um, yeah, I really do think. I mean,
there's always going to be a need for family law attorneys. Absolutely,
I'm not, you know, cannibalizing my field, but the fact
is that the majority of people in this country probably
don't need lawyers and certainly don't need the right and
(19:40):
would you you know, like Okay, for instance, my ex
or soon to be ex husband, um we went to
therapy from even before we got engaged. Right, I'm a
huge advocate for therapy, and um so I kind of
forced him to come to therapy and I think it
really helped when it comes to communication, and it was
consistent throughout from beginning to end. Um So, when you
(20:00):
I feel like, when you reach the point where you've
done it all in that sense, right, and and then
you realize maybe you know what we've evolved and maybe
not together what I mean, and then you still have
this issue of like, okay, well maybe you know, the
communication may have to stop for a little bit, right
because this is just too much to handle. Do you
(20:22):
suggest I mean obviously hiring an attorney right at that
point when you feel like you've tried it all. I
think at that point, I mean, look again, I don't
know your situation. Sometimes it's a good idea to go
to a mediator that's to be able to talk to
you about the law. It serves kind of similar purposes
to the counselor, except this applies the law to the fact.
And then maybe you each get a consulting attorney that
(20:44):
nobody's like showing more pounding on their chest, but saying,
when you go to mediation next time, why don't you
mention this or this is what it is? You kind
of you try to really distill whatever the remaining issues
are and figure it out. And yes, if you get
to a point where you really cannot work with each
other's speak to each other, if it's a point in
your relationship and hopefully you'll get past this, but that
(21:04):
it's more harmful than beneficial, then yeah, then you get
a mouthpiece. You get your advocate, hopefully one who says
right off the bat, I'm a settler, I want to
settle this, and I hope we never go to court.
Hopefully that's what he gets to. You want two attorneys
that play well together. If in the first round you're
seeing these nasty letters going back and forth, that's bad
because now you lawyers that are in a pissing contest
(21:26):
with each other at your expense. Maybe this isn't a
good fit. Let me find somebody else. You know, always
try to figure out a way that's going to lead
to the path of an eventual settlement, and you will
get it done lord with with a website such as yours.
Let's just will numerically apply a number. Let's say it
is a step ten step process or fifteen step process.
(21:47):
Could you accomplish the first ten steps online and then
bring that partially completed case you're nodding to an attorney, absolutely,
you absolutely could do that. We make it so that
it's easy. We provide you with the forms, we help
you fill out the form. I mean, what I always
think would make me crazy if I was a client
is to be paying some huge hourly rate for somebody
to keep writing my name on every form. And usually
(22:09):
our assistants do that. But still there's a cheaper right now.
So how about we feel this a lot? And then
you hit a wall. Maybe you figure out absolutely everything,
But the one thing you can't figure out is this
one script that I wrote in and it's been at
this production company forever. But if anything ever happens, how
much of it is community property? How much? So either
you let the court reserve jurisdiction over that and you
(22:30):
get everything else done, or you handle a mediator or
two lawyers or something just to work through that issue.
Insert that into the judgment. Paperwork that you guys haven't
get it done. Have you ever experienced, um, a couple
getting divorced that maybe one's a procrastinator and one isn't
and you just want to get it done, and maybe
they want to threaten by how do you speed up
(22:52):
the process, Like, I'm you have to be patient, and yes,
I can sense what's happening here what I don't know
what we're talking about. One person wants to get it down,
the other wondering. There's a learning curve on these things.
Generally one or the other will be like I'm out,
and the other ones like wait, hold on. You have
to be a little patient. Keep in mind, California has
a six month waiting period anyway, regardless of regardless of
(23:16):
a prenup, it takes six months to be able to
process that paperwork. Figure it out that way. So I
have people that come in and they're like, here, this
is our agreement, it's done, we signed it, file the paperwork,
get it done and I'm like, Okay, I'll talk to
you in six months. It's like, what do you mean.
And by the way, it's not just six months anymore,
because we're so bogged down and that it takes a
while for judges to read through them or the clerks
(23:37):
and actually stamp them or bless them or whatever. So
slow your role. Give it a second. I don't know
what you're talking about. So I'm talking to the hypothetical
Yeah my friend, Okay, cool, asking for a friend, friend,
and just and and take into consider. I say to
people all the time, they're like, but I need to
be divorced, and I'm like, in your divorce, I mean,
in California, unless you're super religious, you can eight you
(24:00):
can have sex with other people. Only that ain't happening.
We already know that. Yeah, okay. The only thing you
can't do before your divorce is final by the court
is get married and file as those are the only
two things. So now divorce yourself from the notion of
needing to be divorced and just kind of sit with
the process while the other person used to the idea
(24:21):
because eventually he or she will and then you'll be
in a much better place. To be talking about resolution
as opposed to this push pull of well, I don't
even know if I really want to get divorced, and
the more you want to get divorced, the more I'm
gonna pull back and make it difficult. So now you go,
you know what, when you're ready, give me a cop
And then Laura because obviously very complished journey, but I
(24:41):
think probably very likely part time psychologist as well. Is
there And just when I hear you talk, is there
a gender divide in that? When this is how it's
always been explained to me, The men are always hoping,
you know what, we can figure this out, and for
women it's like a candlelight and if it goes out,
it out, and once it's out, they're done. I think
(25:05):
sometimes that's the case, but I've seen plenty of men
who are like, this is a business transaction. I've moved
on or I'm done or whatever, and the women are
still kind of like lost and not sure and don't know.
There has been the past, as I'm sure you guys
would agree, been a lot more kind of um economic pressure.
Men are the earners women are. That's completely changed now.
(25:27):
Usually the person who makes the money is the person
who wants to get it over with. And again that's
not just because of the economics, it's also because that person,
if they're a breadwinner, usually approaches more of a business
minded way, whereas the other person doesn't think in a
business minded way. They think more emotionally. But I definitely
(25:48):
don't want to continue spending money with the divorce attorney,
right if you don't have to say that's and so yeah,
you're you're, you know, clocking every hour that you're talking
to the divorce attorney and that your spouses talking to
his or heard of wars attorney because you're probably paying
for that too, so much more transactional, and there's not
necessarily anything wrong with that. But what you don't want
to do is get into spending throwing good money after
(26:10):
bad because you're trying to convince the other person to
give them a second to kind of process and digest.
Know that you're already there and you gotta wait for
them to catch up a little bit, probably like you
did in your marriage too, right, right, right, right, right? Um,
So as far as insurance goes, right, so let's say
one person, one party is paying for the insurance or
they they're under their insurance. Right, Um, is it true
(26:33):
that you don't want to um take them off your
insurance because you're technically still married, right, like if something
were to happen. Is that correct? Well? Also, once once
a divorce petition is filed, what's called automatic temporary restraining
orders go in place, and those preclude you from canceling
any insurance policies or changing any policies, because again, what
(26:56):
the state wants to make sure of is that the
state doesn't get left holding the bag for this stuff.
So they don't want to pay for people that would
otherwise be getting spousal support. They don't want to pay
for damages which would otherwise be covered by insurance policies,
stuff like that. So you really can't change it until
the divorce is final, once the petition has been fired. Lord,
this is an old fashioned phrase. Does does bad behavior
(27:19):
matter anymore? You know, the the spouse and the pool boy,
the wife and the secretary, all that kind of stuff.
Is that completely irrelevant? California, California, So it's supposed to
be completely irrelevant. Um. You know, it's hard to put
the toothpastes back in the tube when it's out there,
but most judicial officers are like, I don't want to
hear about that, but it's done. All this stuff, it
(27:41):
doesn't matter. Sometimes it will come into play when you're
talking about kids. Um still extra marital affairs not so much,
but yes, you know, drug abuse use abuse is a
totally different story. If there's been domestic violence, that will
definitely sway and it could certainly affect awards of support
because if you've been and no abuse that you're not
(28:01):
able to get back into the workplace, then you might
actually get more support, which is why we have people
unfortunately making false allegations of abuse. Right about that too,
right now when you were talking about that. So I guess,
is it black or white like that, or is it
is maybe emotional abuse was in play or like what's
the difference between I guess with how the court interprets it,
(28:23):
between emotional versus of physical. Well, I mean it depends
if you first you have to have a court actually
say that there was domestic violence. You have to make
a finding of domestic violence. And we are getting into
waters where things like emotional abuse, very volatile text messages,
threats could actually be as interpreted as a negative. As
(28:47):
you know, an actual hit, or a blocking of of
an entryway. So those things do way. Um I we
tell all of our clients to really be very careful
about what they write and what they say, and certainly
what they do. But even sometimes um financial pressure if
you do this, I'm not giving you any more money
has at times been interpreted as oh, that's such an
(29:09):
that's such an economic threat. That could cause emotional distress. Also,
we're seeing all kinds of things happening with people putting
things online. If you post a picture of your spouse
with her boyfriend and you send it to the entire
fourth grade, that could be emotionally abusive to her because
it's so embarrassing and all of the other class moms
(29:30):
would think that she was a slut. You know, I
think good being here is important. Do you find that
that kind of thing which you just described, does that
influence settlements? I know it's not supposed to. Does it
influence settlements? Settlements or or you know, in other words,
(29:51):
were sometimes people are battling after the you know, hey
we've split up, but you're being you're embarrassing me, or
you're really being a jerk, so I'm gonna ask for more,
or you know that kind of thing sort of stuff, right,
Judges don't like it, and to what the to the
officers of the court, the lawyers, they're like, can you
not do anything about this? Are you really coming in
here and tattling on the person? Just take care of it. Um. Certainly,
(30:15):
judges don't like to award additional sanctions or fees, you know,
if if they don't need to. But if somebody is
really behaving poorly and you have to come to court
to stop that behavior, then yes, I mean, you don't
want to make a bad impression in front of a
judge no matter what. Right and this is all public knowledge. Everything,
it's a public Aren't you trying to fight that? Yeah?
(30:39):
That system? Are we trying to fight the system? Because
I'm on your team if we? If you are. You know,
in my next life, I had to I had to
pick a road at one point, and I decided that
I was going to go for you know, bringing more
affordable resolution oriented divorce to the public as opposed to
legislative means to keeping right, so they were attainable us
(31:00):
as you know torch to carry. Yeah, no, does it
matter now where I guess in the United States, you
get married. Is there some like Virginia? Yeah, oh yeah,
And it's really interesting. I'm in this group right now
with it's all female attorneys and we're from all different jurisdictions.
We do all high net worth kind of cases, and
(31:21):
we each present once every couple of months. And yes,
it definitely matters. It's not where you get married, it's
where you live. Okay, so you can get married in Virginia,
but if you live in California, if you've met our
residency requirements if six months, this is where you file
and this is where you will get our super yummy
big child's abort, big spousal support, community property, which is
(31:43):
half of everything. So yeah, we have a lot of
people that do what's called forum shopping. They would much
rather be here. So they're like, honey, can I go
live in Malibu for this summer and then they sleep
for the next three months and then Fami, they get
pregnant in Malibu please, and then you have my baby.
There a lot of people like to have babies in California,
that's for sure. That's so interesting, all right. Just on
the other side of that, where's the if California is
(32:06):
the most generous, where's the least generous. Oh totally, I
could totally secause they're like, here's a pen, good luck.
So I guess rewind here a little bit. I mean
before the divorce, I what is the number one reason?
Is it communication that couples get divorced? Is it something
that is Uh? Do you ever find that you're the
(32:27):
middleman in a way where you're like, let's just talk
it out here and then you're like, okay, we're good
and then they come back and then you want to
get a divorce or they end up working it out,
or are they divorced and then marry again? Like is
it have you had all of different types, had all
different types just get married again? People that are getting divorced.
And I've actually waited in a courtroom for my client
(32:47):
once everything was seinfeld and delivered and we were just
entering with the cord and my my opposing counsel was
waiting for her client and we're standing there and we're
waiting and we're texting and nobody's answering, and the two
of them show up devil in the doing it one
last time. Oh my human nature is kind, I know.
(33:08):
And then I ran intom a couple years later, I'm like,
do you still see a He's like, that was the
last time last bag. I was like, okay, but yeah,
I've seen a lot of different things. People handle this
situation very differently, and a lot of times you see
really great people behaving really poorly. And then sometimes you
see really people that otherwise have not been so fantastic
(33:31):
in their marriages somehow grow a conscience or become very
compassionate to their accent. Or there's people that we've you know,
we've done their divorces and then they've come back and
we've done their prenups, and it's interesting to see how
they approach leaving a relationship as opposed to getting into one.
But to answer your question, I think, yeah, poor communication
and just growing apart. You know, you get married, and
(33:52):
back in the day when they created the phrase till
death do as part people only live till they were
like thirty five, that made sense. But now we live
so much longer and we've so much more in our
lives that it would make a lot of sense that
if you get married young, you know, twenty years in
when you're only forty, all of a sudden you look
at the person next to you now your kids have
left for college, and you're like, who even are you?
And what do I want your six pack? Well know,
(34:15):
maybe sex, so there's only four you. But I said,
have life out of me and we've just grown in
such different directions. So yeah, whether it's infidelity or financial
issues or people say, oh is if you're redoing a house,
that's for sure when you're going to get divorced, all
of those things because people get you know, you're displaced
and yeah, and you have no control. So I have
(34:37):
seen a lot of people come in after, you know,
after they be done a house. That's interesting and they're like,
I'm done with you. But it really all of that
boils down to the fact that they didn't have good
communication tools, that they didn't employ those tools as they
were going through what is a difficult time. But but
do you think again, you're have a ringside seat and
(34:58):
are sort of an expert on this. Of all the
things you cited, it occurs to me that that long
living is the greatest culprit that that in other words,
marriage was designed very likely as an institution for people
who didn't, you know, live as a married couple for
more than x number of years and also at a
(35:18):
time when marriages were really transactional. You take my daughter
and you have feed her and the child the offspring
you guys have and I'll give you six goats. I mean,
it wasn't had nothing to do with love. That's why
you had arrangement with currency back then. And then it
kind of moved more into security. Women went straight from
you know, going to high school, then moving straight in
(35:40):
with their husbands, and then women started going to college.
So you went from your high school to your sorority
to your husband. And that was what we did because
we couldn't live with our parents for the rest of
our lives because they were going to die. So we
were gonna find somebody else with him to procreate and
that would protect us. And now you have all of
these changing things that happened, but you've still got this,
in my opinion, fairly antiquated, you know, marriage thing. And
(36:03):
so I truly believe that you should be with somebody
who is able to make you better and you make
them better and you grow together. And if you stopped
growing together, that's when you kind of classes. Do you
believe in marriage? Cause I know you've been married before.
When you were younger. Yeah, I believe in marriage. For
some people I believe so that I don't. I don't
believe in marriage. Right, we understand why it exists. Thank god,
(36:24):
that's why I have a roof over. Thank God. You
got it out of your system too, like I did. Yeah. Well,
I got married when I was twenty five and I
was only married for about fourteen months. But I always say, like,
why would I ever do it again? I'll never have
better living udding pictures than when I was and at
the bel Air Hotel. Right, that's amazing. Might as well
do it up? Lord? Do do post nuptial agreements exist
(36:46):
or is that? Is that something you would advise or
what's your thought on that? Um? It depends. I think
if there's been some kind of a change in your circumstances,
whether you have a prenup and now you're doing a
post up, or something happens during the course of the
marriage to warrant a a snuptual agreement necessary, then yes.
The reason their difficult is because you've already gone a
certain period of time being married. So you've got that
(37:07):
one contract under the state of California's laws, and now you,
I guess, are trying to figure out a way to
change things going forward. You don't want to have a postnup,
which is basically just pre negotiating your divorce that you
are already wet and getting and you have the same
disclosure requirements that you would have if you were going
to do a prenup. Everything has to be out on
the table. So what we sometimes have is a couple
(37:30):
that comes in and they've been married a long period
of time, and one or the other has all of
the financial information, controls the finances, makes the money. The
other has no idea about it, and he or she
is not terribly forthcoming with the information. So the person
that wants information is, look, you've got two choice. We
get divorced. I'm entitled to see absolutely everything. If you
don't want to get divorced, open up the kimono. I
(37:51):
want to see everything, and then we'll decide whether we're
gonna stay married. But I need that some disclosure happening here.
And so yeah, they do work. I mean they have
also very very stringent statutory guidelines for what would make
them enforceable and valid, and we see them not as often,
but we do see them. Last question, is it easier
to have separate bank accounts. Like, um, if you go
(38:12):
into it with like, okay, well everything is like mine
is mine, yours is yours. Um, there and there shouldn't.
What's the fight about? No, if you have a prenup
that says it. I have people that come to me
and they say, look, we always kept everything separate, so
it should be separate. Like the problem is you've been
having dollars into separate accounts for ten years. I mean.
And if they're willing to agree, that's fine, but often
(38:32):
you then have to do a little bit of untangling.
M I hear you. Okay, my goodness, I hope I'll
show you an hour. I'm kidding. Okay, Well, thank you
so much for your time. You are yeah, you are amazing.
You are you are truly amazing, and um, maybe my
next divorce, don't kidding. Just give me a favor. Breath, relaxed,
(38:58):
it's all gonna be okay. You don't have a choice,
get through this and you just have to like let
it play out and then it will be good. And
tell your hypothetical friend the same thing. Oh, I will
thank you for the advice, Laura. Thank you so much.
By all right. Thanks to Laura Wasser for all of
(39:23):
her free advice. UM. We got lots of responses from
listeners from episode six is question of the week, which
was why is it easier to be mean to ourselves
rather than nice? Um? We got tons of feedback, but
the theme across all answers was because we are constantly
comparing ourselves to others, that is the devil and I
couldn't agree more. Um, I definitely struggle with comparison. I
(39:44):
think that it's just in my nature because of ballroom
dancing and um, in competitions, like how we are being
literally compared to the other couple that's dancing next to us,
and same thing on Dancing with the Stars, right, So, like, yes,
I do fall into that dark hole a lot of comparison,
and I have to remember, you know that we're also
we're all the same, yet we're all very different and
(40:06):
it's hard to compare. You can't compare anyone's divorce, you
can't compare anyone's relationship or love or or dance moves. Right, Like,
we're all our own person and we have to embrace that.
But it's so much easier said than done. So anyway,
at the end of every episode, we need to ask
basically all of you the listeners, the question of the week,
So are you ready? The questions plural are what are
(40:28):
some ways to prevent divorce early on? And what is
the secret to a long lasting marriage? I definitely want
to know some of your answers, so please we want
to hear from you. Please email us at burke in
the Game at I heart radio dot com or d
m us on Instagram at burke in the Game. See
you next time. Thanks for listening and coming along this
journey with me. If you like what you hear, then
(40:49):
feel free to give this podcast five stars. You can
also follow along with my journey on Instagram at burke
in the Game and if you have any advice or
want to write in, then email me at burke in
the Game at I Heart radio dot
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