May 10, 2022 • 55 mins
Cheryl Burke is getting Burke in the Game. You may be asking, what does that mean? Even though she's won the Dancing with the Stars mirror ball trophy...she has not had as much luck off the dance floor.
Cheryl has not had success with dating or marriage. So, she's ready to try a new approach! She's surrendering control to you...She's letting YOU help her with her relationships. She'll have therapy, life and love coaching, talk to experts and then...it's in your hands. Eventually, she'll let you decide when she's ready to date, who she should date, where she should go, what she should do...ALL OF IT, IS UP TO YOU!First, we're going to get her ready for this wild ride.This week, take a listen, and give us your advice on when it's time to date again after a breakup!
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
This is Burke in the game and I heard radio podcast.
So people think that I'm this happy, go lucky girl
saying around the dance floor, um, dancing on a huge
show for so many years now and with so many
different partners, and that I just live this glamorous life.
(00:26):
But really I am just a normal human being, just
like anybody. And I have gone through so much, I guess,
so many ups and downs in my life and trauma,
and I am just trying to really take life day
by day and trying to be as vulnerable and open
(00:46):
and at the same time and with that is comes
the good, the bad, and the ugly. When I wake
up in the morning, it is very quiet, um in
this house, and that is something very new because of
me now living here alone as opposed to when I
was living here when I was married. Um. And it
is definitely sad at times, especially when I wake up
(01:10):
and especially when I go to sleep. UM. But I
tried to meditate journal. It's just me and my frenchie.
You know. I take her for her walk, feed her
and um. You know, she really has been my source
of sanity because she makes me get up, take her
for walks. I think if she wasn't in my life,
(01:31):
I probably would just have never I would never leave
my house, you know. I I tend to just crawl
into my introverted self when, um, anything big happens in
my life that maybe of trauma or turmoil. I tend
to blame myself for any type of relationship that has
failed in my life, whether that be just someone I
(01:53):
was dating for a few years, or even the marriage,
um that I had that now I don't have. You know, UM,
divorce isn't something that I am proud of by any means,
and especially you know, coming from a divorced family, it has.
It has made me look at my life and just
(02:15):
really blame I mean, I guess I do blame myself.
I blame myself for anything bad that happens, right, I
tend to do that, and um, it has been a
lot too swallow. I know that I am not ready
to date at this moment in time today, but I
know that I need to make changes within myself in
(02:38):
order to first date and then also eventually have a
successful partnership or relationship or maybe marriage. Who knows. I
can't tell the future, but for me it has been
I've been really curious about how you know, and why
a lot of my relationships or every single one really
(03:00):
has not worked out. And I can only point the
finger at myself, right, And so I'm not saying it's
all my fault, but I can only change myself. And
so this is what I'm trying to do. I'm trying
to make the steps toward living a healthy relationship or
wanting to meet somebody who is nice to me, or
(03:21):
wanting to be able to be the best version of me.
Before I even get there, I would say that one
of my problems or one of the things that I
want to work on, is not being so controlling, not
micromanaging everything, because it's fucking exhausting. Like I'm so tired
of thinking that I can control everything around me when
there isn't enough hours in the day even if there were,
(03:42):
I actually don't have that power. And I know that
in order for me to really practice what I'm preaching,
I have to turn my life over to someone else.
And what better way than to turn it over to
you guys. Well, I'm scared shitless to hand my life
over to a bunch of strangers. But yet, um, I
(04:04):
know that if I don't do this, if I don't
take this risk and step out of my comfort zone
that I I just won't do that. I will literally
just be here at home with my dog and never
meet anybody and then go to work right at the
end of the day. This is not the way I
want to live my life, and I know that that's
not the road to happiness. Um it. I have to
be able to take accountability, and that's what I'm doing here, alright.
(04:33):
So Sam Reuben k t l A's Sam Reuben Slash
podcast Dad. Officially I said podcast, big brother, but we'll
take a podcast. Yeah, it's just it's shorter. Okay, Yeah, enough,
Welcome to bark in the game. Are you ready? No,
I'm scared shitless, are you really? Absolutely? But here's the
thing that's so interesting to me because you've done other
(04:56):
tight rope things in a very public way, but this
gets you more scared. Why are you referring to like
shaking my bond bond on television very successfully? Well, see,
since I was a little girl, that's always been my
way of communicating with through body language and through dance,
and so that to me, I can dance with front
of millions of people all day, but to be vulnerable
(05:17):
and to be open and to really just try not
to micromanage. This whole situation is going to take a lot.
Why do you think we're at this point? Why do
you think this is what you need to be doing? Well?
You know clearly I've I can't choose love on my
own right like, I need guidance. I need to Also,
(05:40):
this whole divorce thing has really been quite a roller
coaster right of emotions, and it hasn't been easy for
me to really try to rebuild my life as you know,
as you know you're here in my home. It's just
me and my dog. Um, I don't have a lot
of help, you know, So like I'm just like trying
to get through at the day by day and taking
(06:02):
this whole process one day at a time. But I
also know that I tend to just hide out, like
and I won't really other than my therapist, I won't
really talk about how I'm feeling or even go out
to dinners or anything. So I know that this will
help when it comes to maybe not being so scared
of being in social group. Do you sometimes I think
(06:24):
that I think they're all these sort of aftermaths of divorce.
Do do you think you have a bad picker. Wait,
what do you mean that? They sometimes when a relationship fails,
it's like, you know, I just picked badly. Well, you know,
I think people evolve, honestly, And you know, I'm not
here to bad mouth, you know, my soon to be
ex husband. I am here just to be as open
(06:47):
as possible and just say, listen, you know, I there's
room for growth always and I'm always going to be
at work in progress. And I think some people grow
together and some people don't. And that's okay, you know,
and I just have to the this thing for me
was to have that self actually actualization and realization on like, Okay,
this is what it is. And I can't really judge
anybody else for that path that they choose to be on.
(07:11):
Some people think in a in a superficial way and
and some of these things aren't. Okay, you have this
thriving career, you're beautiful, you're fit and talented, you can
do all these things that that I don't want to
say puts you ahead, like I am privileged? Right well, no, no, no,
but it would be I'd like to be her. I'd
(07:32):
like to be her. Being single in l a well, listen,
it's not that glamorous. And um, I think that I
am just like everybody, you know. I this has really
been a ship show, this whole process, and especially lately, um,
because I've never gone through this before, and you know,
with social media and seeing everyone's comments and most may
(07:55):
not be all positive, it affects me. I mean to
the point where I take off the app when I'm
on Dancing with the Stars because it literally will dictate
my emotions. See that that's something where I don't I mean,
I'm not the first person to tell you this that
that's where I think one has to have the sort
of tortoise show back, because yes, or you just show
(08:15):
your feelings. Like we are human at the end of
the day, no matter if we're dancing as samba in
front of millions of people. I am a human being,
just like Joe Schmo is a human being, and we
all have feelings and no one wants to look at
something that there may be looking for positive feedback and
then see someone say, well you barely even tried in
your marriage, you know, like it's just hurtful. That's yeah,
(08:37):
see that's so so far afield. But another thing that
I was thinking about. And I always refer to it
as the first administration of the second administration. So I
was married once before the first administration. That uh. And
the thing when I got divorced, which I had never
(08:59):
failed at any thing, and I was very consumed with
the idea that I had failed at this or the
thing was a failing. I mean, I you done things
not well, but I never you know, belly flopped where
where something I don't know became nothing or eighteen years
(09:23):
so um so I was really like, oh my gosh.
And and that uh. And I remember sitting opposite a
therapist and and that was one thing. You know. The
therapist used an interesting already said we need this this
merits an inquest like what happened? And um so, so
(09:45):
what well, well what what I thought? Right there we go?
What what I thought was so, well, you know what's
funny and maybe we'll in the process share some of
those experiences I um gosh about and I think this
happens for a lot of it. Two years later, very
happily remarried. We've been married for fifteen years, so it
(10:06):
is not how long woul did it take you to
get back into the dating process. It was really gosh
And I remember I vividly remember my first date with
somebody that actually some of the people working behind the scenes,
you're really uh. And it was in retrospect it was
so misguided. But you know, people think that there's like
(10:27):
a whole timeline that we must follow, and it's probably different.
Like the word dating makes me want to choke and
like bust out into hives because like I'm not even
close to being ready. You see, it's I've I've always
the word dating to me just means to me, it
means you're going out for dinner. I don't think I
could even do that really, But remember I suffered from
(10:47):
social phobis and I actually hate leaving my home unless
get paid. That's something at the Postmates driver is my
best friend, and so it is Amazon. But at the
end of the day, it's um. I have to get
over a lot of hunches. And I think that that's
why I want to try to see what happens. I
(11:08):
guess when I put my fate into someone else's hands,
or many people's hands and just try and be a
little bit more open minded, I get very I'm a
very controlling person. I'd like to say that I used
to be controlling, but I still am. Well, I mean,
let me ask you this, do you think having gone
through a marriage now reaching the conclusion of that marriage,
have you learned anything? What have you? Oh? My gosh, yes,
(11:29):
And I do believe that. Back to the failure thing
that you mentioned, it's there's you know, the failure. The
word failure has such a bad connotation, right, Like it's
just like, oh, and everyone's so scared of it. But really,
without that, how do you succeed in general? Right? Because
without the failure, there is no you know, succeeding in anything.
I don't believe, and I think I experienced it quite
a lot, especially with being a competitor and an athlete,
(11:50):
like I fail more than I'll ever be able to
succeed in that definition of that. Right. But I think
that I've learned so much, not just about Mary and
um communication and stuff like that, but I've learned a
lot about me and how in a good way to
like I actually I am proud of myself for being
(12:11):
able to evolve and kind of see clearly you know
what I want in life, and sometimes it's okay to
know that it may not it may change I mean,
this is part of the human race. We evolve, right,
And I think that I've been trying to I know,
I'm just probably preaching, which my therapist could vouch for,
but I it's important to do so and do so
(12:33):
with grace. And but I've caught myself many times judging
myself for not grieving the way I should be, whatever
that means in my head, I'm not crying enough. I'm
not you know, depressed. I'm just like throwing myself into projects.
But like, look, it's like an alcoholic like also, what
I suffer from is just it's one day at a time, precisely,
(12:54):
one day at a time, one step at a time,
one second, and it I know this is some people
view this as a consolation. Maybe it isn't. The totality
of this relationship was how long? Well, remember we dated
from the beginning like over a decade ago. Okay, so
that was a year. Then we reunited, and I would
(13:17):
say beginning of two thousand seventeen or end of two
thousands sixteen, five years for the whole thing. Yeah, well
that's I was gonna say, that's number one. That is
a substantial amount of time. Yeah, but who's judging. But
but but but it's not it's not eighteen years, it's
not eighteen years. But again, is it better to stay
(13:38):
in a marriage. Well, no, I was gonna say. I
was gonna say, to your credit, it is to your
your great credit. It's very important to recognize, Hey, this is.
But also I gave it a shot, like we both did, really,
we really did. And I think that you know, again,
people evolved. I'm not here to obviously bad mouth or
(13:59):
help people the gossip behind my divorce. That's not why
I'm here. Um, I'm here to move forward and hopefully
do so with the support from the listeners and from
from my podcast dad, and hopefully learn new things along
the way. Well, I think, what do you hope? Okay,
I I think you framed that very well. Are there?
(14:20):
You know how that is sometimes where gosh, I feel
deficient in this or deficient of that. What do you
hope to live deficient in? Most? Like I lived like
an Olympian when I was younger, right, so everything was
like just revolved around ballroom dancing and trying to get
a trophy. And so you'd be shocked, like I just
taught myself how to do my own laundry. Okay, that
sounds crazy. I still don't cook, um, But like I've
(14:43):
been really into spirituality and meditating and stuff lately, but
like I haven't done a lot of stuff, like I
don't know basic skills of living, especially on my own
with like you know, the sprinkler was like spraying my
girlish cans outside the other day, or like not having
an assistant like I'm doing everything. Wouldn't it be nice? Though,
Let's say to meet somebody who like could show you
(15:04):
how to throw together not even ready for that. That
actually actually makes me a little ill. Okay, yeah, like
to have I think I need to love myself and
get to know me first, because I feel like I
owe that to myself before I could even think about
sharing my life with somebody else. Again. Okay, but there's
there's a there's a very see it's so funny. I
think maybe maybe it's a gender distinction having dinner with somebody.
(15:27):
It's just it's just it's just it's just a door opener.
It's doesn't necessarily mean you're sharing your life at all,
and not even be sharing dessert. Right, So you're saying
there's a gray area, right, And I don't know what
that means yet, so like I'm very black or white,
and when someone like a woman goes to dinner with
a man, I have this thing in my head that
(15:47):
it just shows that you're wanting to date or maybe
even sleep with the person, or like that gives permission
for the guy to like, no, you needed my jacket.
I also have realized through this divorce that I have
no patients for small talk and I have no patience
for no not having deep conversations, Like I'm all about
(16:08):
deep conversations, and this is what I'm learning as I
go through this. It's like I don't have to have
patients for that, you know, And I feel like that's
what dates are right now, and I just can't do
this wipe left or have small talk all right, very okay,
when you initially get to know the stars that you
have so successfully paired up with, hi, let's dry hump. Really,
I mean that's what dancing stars, right? Okay, Wow, that's
(16:33):
an interesting opener. I get to know somebody from the
moment I shake their hands, like I can actually tell
you if you feel confident about yourself or if you're
a little insecure by just your handshake. Okay, and then
sometimes I've had great luck playing Cupid. And I know
we're going to let the listeners today. Are you a
(16:55):
live dating app? I've I've done pretty well four marriages
to my credit. Are they still married three of the four? Okay?
So I think it was the age range. The age range. Well,
that's what I was gonna ask you about your age range.
But okay, well, perbably not talking. Okay, Well there you've
answered your own question. Um, that's why I'm here. But no,
(17:18):
I would say, mostly I've fixed people up who went
on to marriage marriage in their thirties or forties. Okay, yeah,
I'm thirty eight, okay, And what do you in your mind?
And and and these things are probably superficial bearers, but
you are interested in people of what age? Right? See?
This is how not ready I am. Okay, I haven't
(17:38):
even gone that far. All right, all right, definitely needs
to be my age or older. I'm not all about. Okay,
you don't want to go, you don't want to go
twenty two, but it should be open to younger as well, right,
because yes, yeah, I mean how much younger? What you
mean younger? Like how much? It really just depends on
the conversation we have. If they're willing to have deep
conversations and dive deep with me, then you know, maybe
(18:01):
we'll see. But I kighly doubt at thirty five year
old would just say, well, I can see this is
gonna be sort of a tough tough to crack. Clearly,
this is why I almost cannot even I mean, I
have my opinion, but I need to be forced to
do certain things, which is where the listeners come in. Well,
I've always had great faith in audiences, and so I
think I hope they have my best interests at heart.
(18:23):
That too, so welcome back guys to bark in the game.
And I have a very special guest who's known me
for close to a decade and has played a vital
role um in my life in general, but also through
(18:45):
this whole divorce process, has held my hand through it all. Really, um,
thank god for her. My therapist is here joining us,
Sam meet Dr Anne Wexler. Dr Wester Hello. And then
then one thing that's very people who are listening, like, wait,
her therapist tell me the arrangement you guys have made.
So basically I have signed a waiver as I want
(19:06):
to try and be as open as possible. I signed
a waiver with Dr Wexler saying that, look, you could
just air my dirty laundry and all of it without
obviously mentioning names and trying, you know whatever, but she
would never anyway. So you have permission to I'm literally
sweating in places that you don't want to know about.
But yes, you have the permission to just talk freely
(19:28):
as if me and you were in a session I podcast. Okay,
just say anything anything that I know. Dr. What's what's
her problem? First of all, have you not read Oprah's book?
You have to ask what happened to her? What's Cheryl's problem?
Why is she in this position? Well, you know you
(19:48):
you were saying earlier that she has a bad picker.
I think that that is the simplification of it, but
absolutely true. Um, there's been a series of guys that
are just you know, bad guys. Bad boys. Yeah, and
not bad boys like you know, cool hip whether wearing
a leather jacket, bad boys, like really bad guys. Who
(20:08):
have She's had abusive relationships, She's had um domestic type
violence and UM a lot of controlling men and cheaters
and liars, and all of it, so she needs to
do a better job picking. At first, that has all
to do with though myself, right, maybe that's what I
(20:29):
feel like I deserve, right, Okay. And then then the
naive listener and the naive me is going to say,
and again, these might be superficial characteristics. She's famous, she's successful,
she's super accomplished. Why why, like those are all pluses?
Why would she think she doesn't deserve that? Or are
(20:52):
they pluses? Aren't they pull? Maybe not? I mean, I've
been a psychologist in Beverly Hills for thirty years working
with many celebrities, and they have the same problems as
everyone else. It's the same stuff. They just they have
slightly different angles where people they have to worry about
does someone want me because I'm famous or wealthy or whatever.
(21:13):
But other than that, they're just like everyone else. And
let's rewind for a little bit. Why why do we perform?
We perform? I believe for that. I guess justification that
like that reassurance that we we are good. Like think
about it, like when during the pandemic, when I was dancing,
there was no one clapping. It was the hardest thing.
I don't think I would still be in this business
(21:33):
if there was, like, all of a sudden, no audience.
See that. That's so interesting because I think people find
their place. And I think you and your colleagues perform
because you're really good at it. I don't think so.
I think I love like. I love the mentality, yes,
and I love like always competing. And I only know that.
I only know that side. But it's for something it's
(21:56):
too maybe deep down subconsciously it's for the of applause.
Maybe well? And could it be for healthy attention? That
you need healthy attention? People think it's unhealthy attention, But
what if getting healthy attention in an intimate relationship feels frightening,
and it feels more comfortable to get attention from people
(22:16):
who are far away from you, Like my loved one
has to stand up standing ovation every time I walk
through the door. No, because that'd be too close. The
idea is that and this is certainly not universally true, right,
and maybe the way we were raised right, right, But
and it might be true for you, but you're more comfortable,
comfortable with the less intimate attention. I think you're right.
What one thing it? Again? I think one thing that's
(22:38):
going to be very beneficial about this whole uh experiment experiment.
I was gonna say social experiment. I think that's gonna
beneficial about this whole experiment is there's a lot of
I think phraseology that sometimes people are not entirely familiar with.
So the idea that Cheryl should work on herself, what
does that mean? Well, apparently for cheryln mean is really
(23:00):
getting to know herself on a deeper level and not
being someone that is just there to please others, like
to make other people happy. When you're a professional dancer,
professional athlete, you've spent your entire life trying to please people,
your coach, your trainer, your TV producer, whoever. And that
generalizes to Matt, especially as a partnering ballroom dancing. That's
(23:23):
all that we do. So she needs to learn who
she is, what she wants, what matters to her more
than what matters to someone else. I've said to her
many times, you have to put your own needs first,
and she looks at me like I'm crazy. Yeah, And
then also what you've said as well, that I look
at you like you're crazy is like the trusting myself,
like knowing that what I'm feeling is right always and
(23:47):
you second guess yourself. Oh my goodness, you'd be so shocked. Yeah,
because we all have that inner voice that's telling us,
you know, when you're out on a date, when you're
out to dinner, going nah, this isn't it now, I
gotta go home. But then Cheryl ignores it. Yeah, because also, yeah,
it's just developing that trust. It's like, even with these
abusive relationships that Anne talked about, it was like, did
(24:10):
he really I'm not saying this was happening in my
marriage by any means. I want to make that clear,
but um it was like do I really have these
bruises on my body? And um I second guess that
as well. Like and so I would always end up
going back to that same person constantly. I just want
to clarify that. It's it's it sounds really far out
(24:31):
there when you say that, but the truth is it's
very real. She's not the only one who does this.
Where she'll have an argument with a friend, let's say,
or whoever, and she'll tell me about the argument, and
within a week she's doubting that that's what actually happened.
I have to say to her well, last week you
told me you said this, and that other person said this,
and it's a whole another reality. And right that she's
(24:53):
shifted what's true in her mind to make herself the
bad one. It's actually now you say like that, this
is interesting. I like to hear this because then it
really puts everything in I don't know, it's different when
you're real the observer. Right, well, well you're it's a
conversation regarding the experiences that that you've had going forward. Wait,
(25:17):
if the listenership found the perfect person, is she ready
now or she's not ready now? She's not ready now? Okay?
And okay, that's another phrase, though, will a will she
ever be ready? She'll never be as ready as she
wants to be. She's gonna get a little nudge from
me and maybe from you as well, um, because she's
going to have to go out there and get outside
(25:38):
of her comforts. And I always say to her, you
don't have to walk a mile outside your comfort zone,
but you do need to walk a couple inches outside. Well,
you're not by yourself. And and then here's a juxtaposition
that you know, to dance in front of billions of
people is an incredibly nervy thing. She that's got to
be way harder than meeting somebody for office, not if
(26:00):
it's not intimate. Not for Cheryl. Yeah, I'll never see
these people again. Well, and the thing is is, have
you ever met someone who's really great socially social butterfly
great at a party, but then they don't have long
lasting relationships because they're really good at one level of socializing,
but the next level, the more intimate level, is terrifying.
(26:21):
And that's Cheryl. You're looking at her and then we're
not like, I don't have long I mean like, look, yes,
but she means intimate. I mean yes, and I don't.
I was not speaking of you, but I mean that
A part of that is, yeah, because you have had
long lasting intimate relationships, but there's fear yes for you,
you're based yea wo um. It's like sort of peeling
(26:45):
an onion to a degree. Are you ever surprised? I imagine?
And will you? Cheryl's the example because it's her show
and we're here. She walked into the office and you
thought a and then as things progressed, it was not
a long yeah when she first walked in. Honestly, she
(27:07):
carried herself from my perspective, as an insecure woman, and
today she carries herself far more securely. The way she stood,
the way she greeted me, it was I could tell
that she didn't believe in herself to some degree. I
was also heavily drinking then as well, which is not
an excuse. I totally hear you, which I didn't know
(27:27):
at the time. Yeah, and you have been very and
you and I've talked about this many times, and we
talked about it publicly. You've been very candid about all
that is that is that like a sidebar thing or
does that need to be looked at her? I mean,
I can just answer for me personally that I feel
like I'm relearning myself because I am a different person
(27:48):
soer and I don't have anything to really numb as
far as be a different person because I'm foggy up
in the area. Well. And the thinking about addiction and
in alcoholism is that there's us a delay or like
a stop in your development and growth um emotionally and mentally,
(28:09):
so forever many years. How many years was it used
to one actually, so a lot of years, and so
there there is a delay. They say people who let's say,
did it for ten years, are ten years younger psychological,
and then if you've got child molestation involved and then abusive,
you know, this goes on. So technically I'm five years old.
(28:32):
What one thing that I've had friends who have, you know,
been single after college and then whatever, married and then
single again in forties and one. I don't know. I
don't want to use the word gripe, but I guess
I'll be honest to use the word gripe. Gosh, everybody
has so much baggage now or is it just everyone's
vote voicing it? Maybe more? Well, I think when we're
(28:55):
in our twenties, there's a lot of fantasy involved in
marriage and relationship at Like, we we meet someone and
within a year or two were engaged, and there's this
whole fantasy element of what the spouse is going to be.
By the time you're divorced and doing it again, that
fantasy is gone. The worst has happened. It's the notebook. Yeah,
(29:20):
I mean, I use the word prescription and quotes. What's
the prescription for Cheryl? She has to get to know
who she is, she has to well, let's stop there.
What does that mean? Well, if I ask you, Cheryl,
can you name Come on, this is bullshit. Can you
name three traits about yourself? I am loyal and trustworthy.
(29:43):
I am right, It's like what is my favorite color? Um?
I am loyal and trustworthy, I am dependable and a
hard worker. Okay, so stop for a second. Any guy
in the world wants a woman who's loyal and trustworthy,
who is dependable, because nobody that's the Southern California delemmat.
(30:05):
Nobody's dependable. Not a hard work, not a hard worker. Not. No,
they do want I don't believe that, not all men.
I do think that being a very hard worker is
sometimes hard. But I'm like some hard work and I'm
not like a hard worker. I'm like a hardcore worker.
She's hyper productive. Yeah, And I think the thing that's
(30:26):
hard about that for men at times that she's dated
in the past or that she may date in the future,
is that they feel they have to be very productive
as well. They can't chill out, they can't relax, they
have to keep up with her, and no one's going
to keep up with that feeling, right, Yeah, which is
actually I'm not necessarily proud of. By the way, right,
it's got good and bad parts. And the thing is,
(30:48):
I don't think the guy you should be with should
be as hyper productive as you. We would never see
each other, right, He should be able to, you know,
chill you out a little bit, be able to I
am also very insecure like I that we can add
to the list because it's like I need someone to
at the end of the day kind of calm me
down in that sense. Right, Okay, one thing that we
(31:11):
that you just said, you know and the guy should
be X, Y or Z. Is the guy the ultimate solution?
And is there is there is number that it always is.
Oh yeah, it's such a myth. It's such a fantasy
that a man or a woman for anybody can change
your whole life and make you happy again with the
(31:31):
romantic comedies have done this tation. But yeah, no, the
solution is within her, amen, sister, and how does she
find that? So I asked her three traits and those
were good traits, right, she said she's dependable, hardworking, and loyal.
So hardworking is the only one of those traits she
(31:52):
mentioned that is not relational, right, dependable as you, I'm
a hard working so I can put a roof over it, right,
But hard working is just about you. That is just
about You're right, it's not bad, it's not negative things
nice to myself. Yeah, I'm just pointing out that you
have defined yourself more in terms of another. And by
(32:12):
the way women do this, we've been taught to do
this from very young So you know, usually when I
ask women to define themselves, well, I'm really giving and
caring and nursuring. Yeah, Like, but are you also intelligent
and interesting? And she's funny? I am funny? Yeah, us,
I am so hysterical. So what do you think people
(32:34):
listening to this? I mean, I think as we go
along the process there, I don't know if they'll be
tasks necessarily how could people help? Are you nervous that
I'm letting people help? No, I think it's great because
I sometimes have this wish that I could choose partners
for lots of people, because because we are all drawn
to people that feel familiar, that feel like home, and
(32:58):
in some cases that's great. Look at those happily married people.
They've married people that feel like mom and dad. So like,
I'm anxious attachment and most likely be with avoidant attachment.
So and an attachment as a whole area of study
that relates to relationships. But for Cheryl, you know, she
might be drawn to someone that feels like home to her,
(33:18):
not as positive away, which is not warm and fuzzy,
not necessarily I was. I really struck by that feels
like home because the thing that was so funny is
the my my wife's name is Leslie, and we met
literally on a blind eate and then but we we
know we like like a fixing, like a totally blind age,
(33:42):
and we um, what's the phrase I'm looking for? Immediately
felt familiar. And I did not go to her high school,
but I went to the one like next door, and
we had relatively similar up. That phrase feels like home
strikes me tremendously. That's exactly good memories with that, right, Yeah,
like home is definitely darker. Yeah, And it's not to
(34:04):
say that everything is bad about her family. That's not
the case at all. But there are pieces and experiences
she's had, specifically things that are traumatic, are very difficult,
that she's going to seek out without realizing it, and
then she's going to be in a relationship with someone
who makes her feel that same bad way she felt
as a kid in order to work through it unless
(34:25):
I do it within myself first. Yes, I I told
dr Axley that my wife is not practicing, but has
trained as a therapist and has practiced in the past.
And I used this phrase once, which corrective emotional experience. Well,
that's what they say therapy, is that I agree that
certain relationships can be a corrective emotional experience. If you shy.
(34:47):
That means that Let's say you've never been listened to
your whole life, and you just don't feel important because
no one's ever listened to you. And you meet a
man who just rapidly listens to you and lets you
know you're heard. That will that will will almost cure
that part of you that feels not important enough to
be listened to. It correct How I would feel disgusted though,
(35:08):
this isn't really because you're not ready interesting. Yeah. Yeah,
it's almost like I don't like the nice guys. No,
I'm not going to say like I'm much better than
I was, but man, was it really difficult for me
to you know, let that ink? Well, and that's going
to be a key issue for you. That's the key
because a guy who is available, interested and wants to
(35:30):
know you you might not be open to maybe not,
and maybe I would try to trigger him, you know,
into like the old patterns. So yeah, I know I'm
not ready by just saying that. So maybe we should
warn the gun warning. You need to be a couple
of things. You need to the fact that she's so
physically accomplished, like I'd say that's a plus. Definitely, Yeah,
(35:53):
physically accomplished. What does that mean? You're you're an afthlete, athlete,
an athlete, you're pessional athletes like okay, and you're fit.
I know you don't like to hear compliments, but you
are also dealing with body dysmorphia. Jesus, how long have
people got like this might take a few years. We've
got lots of issues out This onion is a big one,
(36:16):
lots of layers. Yeah, I mean, I think one of
the things that has to happen is you have to
start orienting your orienting yourself to the idea that you
should be open to a man who's nice, who's kindly.
I don't think I think I am definitely you are
what open to meeting a nice man but later in life,
(36:39):
but I definitely I do if you remember, like I
get really sensitive when I see or when there's any
type of triggers for me when it comes to um
emotional abuse, right, and so, but what I need to
do is instead of cut that person off completely, I
mean there is a gray area, right, So, like I
think I've gone to the opposite now now I need
(37:00):
to find that middle where it's like I can stick
up for myself without actually saying you're like out of
my life completely, right. And that's one of the ways
to find out who you are and who the other
person is is to set that boundary. Someone says or
does something that you're not comfortable with, you let them
know I'm not comfortable with this, and that that's what
I'm still, like you were saying earlier, If you go
to dinner, it doesn't mean you're ready to sleep with them, right,
(37:21):
And I always say no all the way up to
the end. There are laws about them of people listen
to this right now, it's like my brother's a nice guy.
I know this other guy, and you hear this lament
all the time that nice guys don't get anywhere, and
it's these bad talk, deep conversations, and it's these bad
guys who get everywhere. Yeah, I mean I don't believe that,
(37:46):
but I think nice guys meet nice women that have boundaries. Yeah,
the idea that you would only be able to be
with a bad guy or a bad boy like that's
not right, very black and white. Yeah, that has to
shift and change. I do think though it's right. It's
(38:06):
on a spectrum, right, it is gray. It's many many
shades of gray, and you just have to slide down
the spectrum from very bad to a guy. Maybe maybe
the bad thing he does is, you know, he goes
out with you too late at night or something like that.
I mean, that's the lying I am very sensitive honestly,
is a key key it is. It is actually the
(38:28):
number one thing for me or else. I feel betrayed
right away. I'll never trust you again. And you have
to understand it's the littlest ship. Yeah, I mean, it
could be something as small as as a guy says, oh, yeah,
I just got home. Sorry didn't call you. I just
got home, But that got home thirty minutes prior. She'll
be upset. Alright, I've been a little bit better, but alright.
(38:51):
Using that as an anecdotal example, isn't that a little much. Yes, yes,
well I think no, But I mean what I think
it is is that you have to be able to acknowledge. Okay,
this makes me uncomfortable. I feel scared that he's lying
to me. But this is not this is what I
used to say. It's a fib well there. Yeah. When
it comes to time, yes, yeah, time. You got to
(39:14):
like that location, like I'm I'm really at this woman's
house to say that, like whatever you're you're shopping when
you're actually not. If he's not buying you a gift
yet problem exactly. Good lies are okay when they're buying
you a gift, but no, I mean you are. You're
very sensitive about lying in honesty, and I think that
(39:36):
some of the change has to come within you and
be able to think that every every expression that is
not accurate is not a lie. I just don't get
it though, I don't understand. I'm not like that. I'm
very accurate. I mean I will text it to you
and I'll be long, but like I'm at, I am
all facts. I think sometimes it when a sense of
(39:58):
a mission is what people know. It's just I could
tell you the forty five reasons why I didn't call you.
It took me half an hour to call you. But
none of them are interested. You know. It's it's you know,
I had to I had to unload my car three times,
so that took ten minutes, and then I had to
let the dog out and you know, blah blah blah
blah blah. Woman before Um not really, no, I think,
(40:22):
because I too let me polish my own halo. I
feel I have a really good picker, like I'm friendly
with old girlfriends, and I feel for the most part,
I've done, I've picked well. So you came from the
happy home. But yes, my parents were no divorce. No,
And you know, it's so funny and then and there's
obviously a slight age disparity between me and the two
(40:44):
of you. But when I went to elementary school, not
for Western elementary school, just down the way, um, there
was one family that was divorced and it was a scandal,
and you know, and so now it's it's such a
contrast with my kids. It's nothing at all. It was
it was a huge oh my god. When the person
(41:06):
was still in school right like third or fourth grade. Inside,
oh my gosh, she's the only single mother here. Yeah,
and that's not the case. No, that's not the case
anymore whole um. But yeah, that makes a big different.
You are who you were away unless you want to
change it. I think. Well, now we'll get to analyzing me.
(41:27):
Nearly is interesting or it is capella or is challenging?
I think? Or will it? I'll see when I get
more comfortable with you, Sam, you're screwed. Yeah, but I
do think something you can do to get yourself more ready,
to be ready for somebody who's honest, but not one
because honestly, honestly, nobody's a hundred honest nobody is Okay, yes,
(41:51):
it's not work that detail out later because I'm very
you know, my brain right now is like, what if
you do and then this? Can I call you out? Though?
Let me let me call you out cat? So you
say your honest. But the truth is if someone said
to you, hey, can I borrow this? Or do you
want to go to this place with me? And I
don't want to and you don't want to go, you
(42:12):
would not say, you know, I'm just not comfortable with
you borrowing. I must say. There was a text message
message exchange with somebody who was like literally asking me
for a favor, and I said, actually, I actually don't
feel comfortable nice and I that's very new because it
was very nerve wracking leading up to that. But yes,
you're right, I would. I am not honest. But if
(42:35):
you practice those being able to notice, notice the difference
that it isn't always a person who's a liar because
they say, oh, I have plans tonight, I don't I
can't go, versus saying I don't want to go with you. Right,
Sometimes it's just kind are trying to be kind? All right?
So Cheryl laid out some really nice snacks for all
(42:58):
of us, and when when we part company today, I
don't want to take all of them with me, but
I want to take some of them with think that's fine,
you'll be lucky if you can have one. But thank
you for practicing. Yes, good example. Good example. Wait does
a couple mean too? Because some people say a couple
(43:20):
of am I mean three? Four? Anything plus two is
a few? Um, she's not hopeless. There's hope. There's definitely
hope because she imagine if you were like she's hopeless
and the podcast is over. No, I you know the
thing is we all are works in progress. The idea
that she's the only one who needs help is not real.
(43:42):
We all are works in progress. She she has to
work on herself, and I just have the courage just
to lay it all out in the line right now, because,
by the way, it's very selfishly, very therapeutic for me, because,
like what Anne said earlier, I probably prefer doing this
than having an intimate conversation with somebody and sitting and
being as open as I am now. Yeah, but I
do have to give you credit that you've been processing
(44:04):
a lot of your tough emotions in the last few months.
You have been doing it, which is new for you.
So but it's gonna get you to where you need
to go. Yeah, I think we're gonna take a quick break.
(44:27):
Welcome back, guys, to Burke in the game here with
my therapist for seven to eight years, I think we've
worked together now Dr Anne Wexler and my podcast dad,
even though he hates me saying that Sam Reuben k
t l a Sam Reuben. So basically, I guess we
should tell Dr Wexler what the premise of the show
is that I would be helpful, sure, and then ask
our audience and listeners the first question that they get to. Um. So,
(44:51):
so one thing that we are sort of kicking around
now that now that Cheryl is quote unquote free to date,
when would be a good opportunity to start doing that?
And I guess the framework of the question is simply this,
for people who are listening. After a big breakup or
after a divorce, when did you first feel comfortable going out?
(45:15):
How long was it a week later? Was it six
months later? Was it a year later? During? Was it
two hours later? And I think everybody has a different
duration though, don't you think? Yes? And I bet you
it's going to be different from men and women. Men
are much quick, men are much quicker than Yeah, of
course it's during kidding that has been your experience at times.
(45:36):
At times, um yeah, and okay, As as we let
people process that and and feedback d M, and we're
gonna put a poll up in all these different ways
to get that information that you have back to us
as we do that, as we what do you will
you think you're never going to be ready? No? No,
I think I will be ready. But I think that
part of this process, or let's say, part of this experiment,
(46:00):
surrender experiment, is not just like find share on a
date tomorrow now, because I'm actually not ready for dating
tomorrow um or maybe not next week, maybe not for
another few months, maybe not for a year, I don't know.
But in the process, how can I evolve into being
able to date in the future and what are those steps?
And maybe the listeners could help with the guidance of
(46:23):
that for people that you know, other women also that
have gone through what I'm going through and may currently
feel the way I feel, you know, I think it's
important that they know that they're not alone. I think
that is very very well said. And as you were
saying that, I was thinking of people who I know,
people who have done this, like in a practice way,
like you know what I'm gonna go out with with
(46:46):
you know, truly in capital letters, with just a friend,
but we're going to go through the motions of a date,
like I'm going to get you know, dressed up and
ready for the date and we'll go to dinner. Or
what's the difference between going out with their friend and dating.
I just actually it's a real question, but there no yes,
because Okay, what one thing in this this I don't
(47:08):
think I've ever gone on a date. On a date
what I don't remember. I don't remember the last time
I went on like a date. Well, you guys went
places or yes, but I mean like a date meaning
like high nice to meet you date right when I
also had two years of a pandemic during the totally yeah,
but for something. My first job out of college, I
was a magazine writer, and I had expense account and
(47:30):
so I had to go out to dinner anyway, And
so the format of dating was really right off was
appealing to me because I because honestly, because I was
going to go to dinner, see, I would rather just
order another meal for when I'm hungry later and then
go out with another person. So maybe, in terms of
stepping a little out of your comfort zone, that means
(47:50):
going out a little bit without it being a date.
You're not ready yet that maybe when will I know
I'm ready? Actually, like, maybe I'm just being stubborn. Maybe
I'm just building this fear up in my head. That's
part of the social phobia. But what is your inner
voice say about why you're not ready? Because I'm not
ready to give or even listen until I listen to
(48:10):
me for like, I haven't been filled up, yet inside
I feel like it is the wound is still open. Yeah,
for sure. And for me to pretend that I'm ready
to even sit with another gender and someone I don't
know who is not my friend is just not something
I'm ready for. Well, but you did say something interesting.
(48:31):
You're not ready to give, right, because I think for you,
relationships are about you giving, and you don't think about
relationships listening to Like, I don't know if I'm even
ready to be curious about somebody else's life. Right. But
the thing that I think you're not aware of that
you have to get more, get your head around a
little bit, is that in a relationship, you get and
(48:52):
you give interesting. So oh I okay, then I have
to also learn how to it right. You have to
open yourself up to receiving. There you go. Yeah, I
remember very very very very vividly, And I thought, and
maybe this is some aspect of the fact that she
studied and trained and was a therapist. Um, my wife
(49:15):
used to live in Manhattan Beach and so that it's
a fabulous place to walk. We'll just take these long,
long walks on the strand. And this almost sounds like
a cliche. But she was like, you're just you're looking
for a soft place to land, and I was like,
oh am I ever And I just thought that was
(49:35):
like I was so struck by that phrase, and I
was like, oh my god, that was what I divorced
into and date. And one thing that is I do
think gender related. This maybe gender Southern California related. I
think there's a lack of quality men. I think if
you're if you're a guy, I was, if you were
(49:56):
fourty years old, you have a job, and you have
a car, you can date and body in the universe.
It's like, it's shocking how well men can do. Or
is that just the perspective that we're in the entertainment business.
Maybe maybe it's maybe there's some good guys, but I
think in generals and social media and telephones or cell
phones have gotten it's just people prefer just to swipe
(50:17):
left and I definitely don't want to do that. I
believe in men more than you do. I think there
are many, many quality men in the city and saying
I hear women all the time say they're not enough
quality men in l A. And I just feel like
it's a it's an excuse there are many other professions
here besides the entertainment, absolutely, of course. And one this
(50:37):
is true at least in my own life. I always
joke about this. I don't have any friends and I
don't know anybody who show business. I cover show business,
not my friends, right, No, No, But I'm saying, and
it is uh And I always think. To my wife's credit,
she she was like, this is like three days since
she goes. Oh, I I think I saw you on
(50:58):
a bus board once, but I've I've never I've never
wanted to know who you were at all, and really perfect.
I swear I know you're just from the hearing your voice,
But I really I really preferred that. I thought that
was good. That would be probably impossible for you, But
would you actually prefer I mean, like, if we're to
be specific here, there is this neuroscientist that's really hot
(51:19):
and I'm really into studying the brain. He goes Stanford,
and that's all I'm saying. But I have noticed that
I don't want to have the conversation of the same
dancing like I that's what I do for I would
love to learn from my future partner. Yeah, and by
the way, that's something about you. You're respect the future partner.
(51:43):
That's the main big thing too. Well, it's hard for me.
You're very curious. You're a really curious person, and you
soak up information, you read, you learn all the time.
So I think it would be really great for you
to have someone who knew different things and you could
teach each other. You would that annoy the ship out
of me. I'm just like trying to, like I always said,
to play it out too far back when I'm I've
(52:04):
just my brain is on a whole another Like I
just played out about ten different scenes in the matter
of this conversation. So like or because I always thought
that I wanted to maybe, Oh, my trainer is kind
of hot. This is like obviously before I was married
and I dated my trainer and I was like, stop
telling me what to fucking do, you idiot, Like that
was your relationship. But maybe this is I hope it's
(52:24):
not like that with a neuroscientist. Already alright to neuroscientists asides,
We have a neuroscientist on our show who every all
the women love. He's a family man, but you know,
people talk about hole passes or whatever. He's America's Hale,
passing love Dr John Deal. People think he's most handsome
(52:45):
man alive, and he's like the surgeons. I digress. But
once Cheryl decides to get out there, for example, going
to like a lecture about neuroscience, I'd rather just do
it on my computer. Okay, see, I think, But we're
fighting at two battles here, right. What are the two battles?
Social phobia and me just not being wanting to leave
(53:06):
my house. Well, and the social phobia piece you have
to push through because you can't see this is when
I would drink. No drinking. No, Obviously, you can't meet
someone and you can't date. You can't have a relationship
unless you get out of your house. Then not nowadays
people will fight you for that. Well but but but
and then the one thing though that you said as
we began all this, and I think you were doing
(53:27):
this in a self deprecating way. Here I am, by
the way, in your very beautiful house alone. It's just
me and my dog, and that to me, you said
we don't want any visitors people. No, no, but you
said it was sort of the negative connotation. It's like,
you know, it's well, it's just lonely yeah. Sure, Yeah,
it's lonely and it's also but then I've also enjoyed it.
(53:47):
But then now I made this whole house like Fort
Knox because I've been paranoid like being alone here in
this house, you know. But what about stepping out of
your coort comfort zone a little bit? That's yeah, and
that's why I'm here. Yeah, you're gonna have to leave.
I actually have to. This is the whole experiment, right, Yeah,
And maybe I'll like it, and maybe I will throw
(54:08):
a temper tantrum, which is highly likely, but I can
still throw a tantrum and still leave the house doing
it well. And by the way, a date doesn't have
to be all output, all you being funny and interesting
and all of that. The other person is coming to
the table with something and you don't know what that's
gonna be, so you're gonna be going several inches out
of your comforts. Yeah. Well, with this concludes episode one.
(54:31):
Well done, Sheryl, you did great, And we're gonna explain
to to folks watching and listening exactly how you can
get much more intimately involved happiness mental health is completely
in your hands. But not to put too much on
anybody and I could just blame everybody, but this was
fun and really interesting. Caryl, you are I think you've
(54:53):
accomplished the first goal. I think you're being very candid
and very vulnerable. Thanks. This is actually I'm, like I
said earlier, sweating in places I've never slept before. Um,
but thank you, Dr Wexler. I know that this is
probably weird for you a little bit. I've never done
it before, but um, I learned a lot actually good
And thank you to my podcast dad. When you're on
(55:17):
not on my ship list, I'll call you my big brother.
Thank you, but thank thank you guys, and thank you
to the listeners for listening to Burke in the Game.
Thanks so much for listening. Help Cheryl out. Follow us
at Burke in the Game b U r k E
Burke in the Game on Instagram and Twitter. You can
email us at Burke in the Game at I heart
(55:39):
radio dot com. Thanks for listening and coming along this
journey with me. If you like what you hear, then
feel free to give this podcast five stars. You can
also follow along with my journey on Instagram at Burke
in the Game and if you have any advice or
want to write in, then email me at Burke in
the game at i heeart radio dot com.
This is Burke in the game and I heard radio podcast.
So people think that I'm this happy, go lucky girl
saying around the dance floor, um, dancing on a huge
show for so many years now and with so many
different partners, and that I just live this glamorous life.
(00:26):
But really I am just a normal human being, just
like anybody. And I have gone through so much, I guess,
so many ups and downs in my life and trauma,
and I am just trying to really take life day
by day and trying to be as vulnerable and open
(00:46):
and at the same time and with that is comes
the good, the bad, and the ugly. When I wake
up in the morning, it is very quiet, um in
this house, and that is something very new because of
me now living here alone as opposed to when I
was living here when I was married. Um. And it
is definitely sad at times, especially when I wake up
(01:10):
and especially when I go to sleep. UM. But I
tried to meditate journal. It's just me and my frenchie.
You know. I take her for her walk, feed her
and um. You know, she really has been my source
of sanity because she makes me get up, take her
for walks. I think if she wasn't in my life,
(01:31):
I probably would just have never I would never leave
my house, you know. I I tend to just crawl
into my introverted self when, um, anything big happens in
my life that maybe of trauma or turmoil. I tend
to blame myself for any type of relationship that has
failed in my life, whether that be just someone I
(01:53):
was dating for a few years, or even the marriage,
um that I had that now I don't have. You know, UM,
divorce isn't something that I am proud of by any means,
and especially you know, coming from a divorced family, it has.
It has made me look at my life and just
(02:15):
really blame I mean, I guess I do blame myself.
I blame myself for anything bad that happens, right, I
tend to do that, and um, it has been a
lot too swallow. I know that I am not ready
to date at this moment in time today, but I
know that I need to make changes within myself in
(02:38):
order to first date and then also eventually have a
successful partnership or relationship or maybe marriage. Who knows. I
can't tell the future, but for me it has been
I've been really curious about how you know, and why
a lot of my relationships or every single one really
(03:00):
has not worked out. And I can only point the
finger at myself, right, And so I'm not saying it's
all my fault, but I can only change myself. And
so this is what I'm trying to do. I'm trying
to make the steps toward living a healthy relationship or
wanting to meet somebody who is nice to me, or
(03:21):
wanting to be able to be the best version of me.
Before I even get there, I would say that one
of my problems or one of the things that I
want to work on, is not being so controlling, not
micromanaging everything, because it's fucking exhausting. Like I'm so tired
of thinking that I can control everything around me when
there isn't enough hours in the day even if there were,
(03:42):
I actually don't have that power. And I know that
in order for me to really practice what I'm preaching,
I have to turn my life over to someone else.
And what better way than to turn it over to
you guys. Well, I'm scared shitless to hand my life
over to a bunch of strangers. But yet, um, I
(04:04):
know that if I don't do this, if I don't
take this risk and step out of my comfort zone
that I I just won't do that. I will literally
just be here at home with my dog and never
meet anybody and then go to work right at the
end of the day. This is not the way I
want to live my life, and I know that that's
not the road to happiness. Um it. I have to
be able to take accountability, and that's what I'm doing here, alright.
(04:33):
So Sam Reuben k t l A's Sam Reuben Slash
podcast Dad. Officially I said podcast, big brother, but we'll
take a podcast. Yeah, it's just it's shorter. Okay, Yeah, enough,
Welcome to bark in the game. Are you ready? No,
I'm scared shitless, are you really? Absolutely? But here's the
thing that's so interesting to me because you've done other
(04:56):
tight rope things in a very public way, but this
gets you more scared. Why are you referring to like
shaking my bond bond on television very successfully? Well, see,
since I was a little girl, that's always been my
way of communicating with through body language and through dance,
and so that to me, I can dance with front
of millions of people all day, but to be vulnerable
(05:17):
and to be open and to really just try not
to micromanage. This whole situation is going to take a lot.
Why do you think we're at this point? Why do
you think this is what you need to be doing? Well?
You know clearly I've I can't choose love on my
own right like, I need guidance. I need to Also,
(05:40):
this whole divorce thing has really been quite a roller
coaster right of emotions, and it hasn't been easy for
me to really try to rebuild my life as you know,
as you know you're here in my home. It's just
me and my dog. Um, I don't have a lot
of help, you know, So like I'm just like trying
to get through at the day by day and taking
(06:02):
this whole process one day at a time. But I
also know that I tend to just hide out, like
and I won't really other than my therapist, I won't
really talk about how I'm feeling or even go out
to dinners or anything. So I know that this will
help when it comes to maybe not being so scared
of being in social group. Do you sometimes I think
(06:24):
that I think they're all these sort of aftermaths of divorce.
Do do you think you have a bad picker. Wait,
what do you mean that? They sometimes when a relationship fails,
it's like, you know, I just picked badly. Well, you know,
I think people evolve, honestly, And you know, I'm not
here to bad mouth, you know, my soon to be
ex husband. I am here just to be as open
(06:47):
as possible and just say, listen, you know, I there's
room for growth always and I'm always going to be
at work in progress. And I think some people grow
together and some people don't. And that's okay, you know,
and I just have to the this thing for me
was to have that self actually actualization and realization on like, Okay,
this is what it is. And I can't really judge
anybody else for that path that they choose to be on.
(07:11):
Some people think in a in a superficial way and
and some of these things aren't. Okay, you have this
thriving career, you're beautiful, you're fit and talented, you can
do all these things that that I don't want to
say puts you ahead, like I am privileged? Right well, no, no, no,
but it would be I'd like to be her. I'd
(07:32):
like to be her. Being single in l a well, listen,
it's not that glamorous. And um, I think that I
am just like everybody, you know. I this has really
been a ship show, this whole process, and especially lately, um,
because I've never gone through this before, and you know,
with social media and seeing everyone's comments and most may
(07:55):
not be all positive, it affects me. I mean to
the point where I take off the app when I'm
on Dancing with the Stars because it literally will dictate
my emotions. See that that's something where I don't I mean,
I'm not the first person to tell you this that
that's where I think one has to have the sort
of tortoise show back, because yes, or you just show
(08:15):
your feelings. Like we are human at the end of
the day, no matter if we're dancing as samba in
front of millions of people. I am a human being,
just like Joe Schmo is a human being, and we
all have feelings and no one wants to look at
something that there may be looking for positive feedback and
then see someone say, well you barely even tried in
your marriage, you know, like it's just hurtful. That's yeah,
(08:37):
see that's so so far afield. But another thing that
I was thinking about. And I always refer to it
as the first administration of the second administration. So I
was married once before the first administration. That uh. And
the thing when I got divorced, which I had never
(08:59):
failed at any thing, and I was very consumed with
the idea that I had failed at this or the
thing was a failing. I mean, I you done things
not well, but I never you know, belly flopped where
where something I don't know became nothing or eighteen years
(09:23):
so um so I was really like, oh my gosh.
And and that uh. And I remember sitting opposite a
therapist and and that was one thing. You know. The
therapist used an interesting already said we need this this
merits an inquest like what happened? And um so, so
(09:45):
what well, well what what I thought? Right there we go?
What what I thought was so, well, you know what's
funny and maybe we'll in the process share some of
those experiences I um gosh about and I think this
happens for a lot of it. Two years later, very
happily remarried. We've been married for fifteen years, so it
(10:06):
is not how long woul did it take you to
get back into the dating process. It was really gosh
And I remember I vividly remember my first date with
somebody that actually some of the people working behind the scenes,
you're really uh. And it was in retrospect it was
so misguided. But you know, people think that there's like
(10:27):
a whole timeline that we must follow, and it's probably different.
Like the word dating makes me want to choke and
like bust out into hives because like I'm not even
close to being ready. You see, it's I've I've always
the word dating to me just means to me, it
means you're going out for dinner. I don't think I
could even do that really, But remember I suffered from
(10:47):
social phobis and I actually hate leaving my home unless
get paid. That's something at the Postmates driver is my
best friend, and so it is Amazon. But at the
end of the day, it's um. I have to get
over a lot of hunches. And I think that that's
why I want to try to see what happens. I
(11:08):
guess when I put my fate into someone else's hands,
or many people's hands and just try and be a
little bit more open minded, I get very I'm a
very controlling person. I'd like to say that I used
to be controlling, but I still am. Well, I mean,
let me ask you this, do you think having gone
through a marriage now reaching the conclusion of that marriage,
have you learned anything? What have you? Oh? My gosh, yes,
(11:29):
And I do believe that. Back to the failure thing
that you mentioned, it's there's you know, the failure. The
word failure has such a bad connotation, right, Like it's
just like, oh, and everyone's so scared of it. But really,
without that, how do you succeed in general? Right? Because
without the failure, there is no you know, succeeding in anything.
I don't believe, and I think I experienced it quite
a lot, especially with being a competitor and an athlete,
(11:50):
like I fail more than I'll ever be able to
succeed in that definition of that. Right. But I think
that I've learned so much, not just about Mary and
um communication and stuff like that, but I've learned a
lot about me and how in a good way to
like I actually I am proud of myself for being
(12:11):
able to evolve and kind of see clearly you know
what I want in life, and sometimes it's okay to
know that it may not it may change I mean,
this is part of the human race. We evolve, right,
And I think that I've been trying to I know,
I'm just probably preaching, which my therapist could vouch for,
but I it's important to do so and do so
(12:33):
with grace. And but I've caught myself many times judging
myself for not grieving the way I should be, whatever
that means in my head, I'm not crying enough. I'm
not you know, depressed. I'm just like throwing myself into projects.
But like, look, it's like an alcoholic like also, what
I suffer from is just it's one day at a time, precisely,
(12:54):
one day at a time, one step at a time,
one second, and it I know this is some people
view this as a consolation. Maybe it isn't. The totality
of this relationship was how long? Well, remember we dated
from the beginning like over a decade ago. Okay, so
that was a year. Then we reunited, and I would
(13:17):
say beginning of two thousand seventeen or end of two
thousands sixteen, five years for the whole thing. Yeah, well
that's I was gonna say, that's number one. That is
a substantial amount of time. Yeah, but who's judging. But
but but but it's not it's not eighteen years, it's
not eighteen years. But again, is it better to stay
(13:38):
in a marriage. Well, no, I was gonna say. I
was gonna say, to your credit, it is to your
your great credit. It's very important to recognize, Hey, this is.
But also I gave it a shot, like we both did, really,
we really did. And I think that you know, again,
people evolved. I'm not here to obviously bad mouth or
(13:59):
help people the gossip behind my divorce. That's not why
I'm here. Um, I'm here to move forward and hopefully
do so with the support from the listeners and from
from my podcast dad, and hopefully learn new things along
the way. Well, I think, what do you hope? Okay,
I I think you framed that very well. Are there?
(14:20):
You know how that is sometimes where gosh, I feel
deficient in this or deficient of that. What do you
hope to live deficient in? Most? Like I lived like
an Olympian when I was younger, right, so everything was
like just revolved around ballroom dancing and trying to get
a trophy. And so you'd be shocked, like I just
taught myself how to do my own laundry. Okay, that
sounds crazy. I still don't cook, um, But like I've
(14:43):
been really into spirituality and meditating and stuff lately, but
like I haven't done a lot of stuff, like I
don't know basic skills of living, especially on my own
with like you know, the sprinkler was like spraying my
girlish cans outside the other day, or like not having
an assistant like I'm doing everything. Wouldn't it be nice? Though,
Let's say to meet somebody who like could show you
(15:04):
how to throw together not even ready for that. That
actually actually makes me a little ill. Okay, yeah, like
to have I think I need to love myself and
get to know me first, because I feel like I
owe that to myself before I could even think about
sharing my life with somebody else. Again. Okay, but there's
there's a there's a very see it's so funny. I
think maybe maybe it's a gender distinction having dinner with somebody.
(15:27):
It's just it's just it's just it's just a door opener.
It's doesn't necessarily mean you're sharing your life at all,
and not even be sharing dessert. Right, So you're saying
there's a gray area, right, And I don't know what
that means yet, so like I'm very black or white,
and when someone like a woman goes to dinner with
a man, I have this thing in my head that
(15:47):
it just shows that you're wanting to date or maybe
even sleep with the person, or like that gives permission
for the guy to like, no, you needed my jacket.
I also have realized through this divorce that I have
no patients for small talk and I have no patience
for no not having deep conversations, Like I'm all about
(16:08):
deep conversations, and this is what I'm learning as I
go through this. It's like I don't have to have
patients for that, you know, And I feel like that's
what dates are right now, and I just can't do
this wipe left or have small talk all right, very okay,
when you initially get to know the stars that you
have so successfully paired up with, hi, let's dry hump. Really,
I mean that's what dancing stars, right? Okay, Wow, that's
(16:33):
an interesting opener. I get to know somebody from the
moment I shake their hands, like I can actually tell
you if you feel confident about yourself or if you're
a little insecure by just your handshake. Okay, and then
sometimes I've had great luck playing Cupid. And I know
we're going to let the listeners today. Are you a
(16:55):
live dating app? I've I've done pretty well four marriages
to my credit. Are they still married three of the four? Okay?
So I think it was the age range. The age range. Well,
that's what I was gonna ask you about your age range.
But okay, well, perbably not talking. Okay, Well there you've
answered your own question. Um, that's why I'm here. But no,
(17:18):
I would say, mostly I've fixed people up who went
on to marriage marriage in their thirties or forties. Okay, yeah,
I'm thirty eight, okay, And what do you in your mind?
And and and these things are probably superficial bearers, but
you are interested in people of what age? Right? See?
This is how not ready I am. Okay, I haven't
(17:38):
even gone that far. All right, all right, definitely needs
to be my age or older. I'm not all about. Okay,
you don't want to go, you don't want to go
twenty two, but it should be open to younger as well, right,
because yes, yeah, I mean how much younger? What you
mean younger? Like how much? It really just depends on
the conversation we have. If they're willing to have deep
conversations and dive deep with me, then you know, maybe
(18:01):
we'll see. But I kighly doubt at thirty five year
old would just say, well, I can see this is
gonna be sort of a tough tough to crack. Clearly,
this is why I almost cannot even I mean, I
have my opinion, but I need to be forced to
do certain things, which is where the listeners come in. Well,
I've always had great faith in audiences, and so I
think I hope they have my best interests at heart.
(18:23):
That too, so welcome back guys to bark in the game.
And I have a very special guest who's known me
for close to a decade and has played a vital
role um in my life in general, but also through
(18:45):
this whole divorce process, has held my hand through it all. Really, um,
thank god for her. My therapist is here joining us,
Sam meet Dr Anne Wexler. Dr Wester Hello. And then
then one thing that's very people who are listening, like, wait,
her therapist tell me the arrangement you guys have made.
So basically I have signed a waiver as I want
(19:06):
to try and be as open as possible. I signed
a waiver with Dr Wexler saying that, look, you could
just air my dirty laundry and all of it without
obviously mentioning names and trying, you know whatever, but she
would never anyway. So you have permission to I'm literally
sweating in places that you don't want to know about.
But yes, you have the permission to just talk freely
(19:28):
as if me and you were in a session I podcast. Okay,
just say anything anything that I know. Dr. What's what's
her problem? First of all, have you not read Oprah's book?
You have to ask what happened to her? What's Cheryl's problem?
Why is she in this position? Well, you know you
(19:48):
you were saying earlier that she has a bad picker.
I think that that is the simplification of it, but
absolutely true. Um, there's been a series of guys that
are just you know, bad guys. Bad boys. Yeah, and
not bad boys like you know, cool hip whether wearing
a leather jacket, bad boys, like really bad guys. Who
(20:08):
have She's had abusive relationships, She's had um domestic type
violence and UM a lot of controlling men and cheaters
and liars, and all of it, so she needs to
do a better job picking. At first, that has all
to do with though myself, right, maybe that's what I
(20:29):
feel like I deserve, right, Okay. And then then the
naive listener and the naive me is going to say,
and again, these might be superficial characteristics. She's famous, she's successful,
she's super accomplished. Why why, like those are all pluses?
Why would she think she doesn't deserve that? Or are
(20:52):
they pluses? Aren't they pull? Maybe not? I mean, I've
been a psychologist in Beverly Hills for thirty years working
with many celebrities, and they have the same problems as
everyone else. It's the same stuff. They just they have
slightly different angles where people they have to worry about
does someone want me because I'm famous or wealthy or whatever.
(21:13):
But other than that, they're just like everyone else. And
let's rewind for a little bit. Why why do we perform?
We perform? I believe for that. I guess justification that
like that reassurance that we we are good. Like think
about it, like when during the pandemic, when I was dancing,
there was no one clapping. It was the hardest thing.
I don't think I would still be in this business
(21:33):
if there was, like, all of a sudden, no audience.
See that. That's so interesting because I think people find
their place. And I think you and your colleagues perform
because you're really good at it. I don't think so.
I think I love like. I love the mentality, yes,
and I love like always competing. And I only know that.
I only know that side. But it's for something it's
(21:56):
too maybe deep down subconsciously it's for the of applause.
Maybe well? And could it be for healthy attention? That
you need healthy attention? People think it's unhealthy attention, But
what if getting healthy attention in an intimate relationship feels frightening,
and it feels more comfortable to get attention from people
(22:16):
who are far away from you, Like my loved one
has to stand up standing ovation every time I walk
through the door. No, because that'd be too close. The
idea is that and this is certainly not universally true, right,
and maybe the way we were raised right, right, But
and it might be true for you, but you're more comfortable,
comfortable with the less intimate attention. I think you're right.
What one thing it? Again? I think one thing that's
(22:38):
going to be very beneficial about this whole uh experiment experiment.
I was gonna say social experiment. I think that's gonna
beneficial about this whole experiment is there's a lot of
I think phraseology that sometimes people are not entirely familiar with.
So the idea that Cheryl should work on herself, what
does that mean? Well, apparently for cheryln mean is really
(23:00):
getting to know herself on a deeper level and not
being someone that is just there to please others, like
to make other people happy. When you're a professional dancer,
professional athlete, you've spent your entire life trying to please people,
your coach, your trainer, your TV producer, whoever. And that
generalizes to Matt, especially as a partnering ballroom dancing. That's
(23:23):
all that we do. So she needs to learn who
she is, what she wants, what matters to her more
than what matters to someone else. I've said to her
many times, you have to put your own needs first,
and she looks at me like I'm crazy. Yeah, And
then also what you've said as well, that I look
at you like you're crazy is like the trusting myself,
like knowing that what I'm feeling is right always and
(23:47):
you second guess yourself. Oh my goodness, you'd be so shocked. Yeah,
because we all have that inner voice that's telling us,
you know, when you're out on a date, when you're
out to dinner, going nah, this isn't it now, I
gotta go home. But then Cheryl ignores it. Yeah, because also, yeah,
it's just developing that trust. It's like, even with these
abusive relationships that Anne talked about, it was like, did
(24:10):
he really I'm not saying this was happening in my
marriage by any means. I want to make that clear,
but um it was like do I really have these
bruises on my body? And um I second guess that
as well. Like and so I would always end up
going back to that same person constantly. I just want
to clarify that. It's it's it sounds really far out
(24:31):
there when you say that, but the truth is it's
very real. She's not the only one who does this.
Where she'll have an argument with a friend, let's say,
or whoever, and she'll tell me about the argument, and
within a week she's doubting that that's what actually happened.
I have to say to her well, last week you
told me you said this, and that other person said this,
and it's a whole another reality. And right that she's
(24:53):
shifted what's true in her mind to make herself the
bad one. It's actually now you say like that, this
is interesting. I like to hear this because then it
really puts everything in I don't know, it's different when
you're real the observer. Right, well, well you're it's a
conversation regarding the experiences that that you've had going forward. Wait,
(25:17):
if the listenership found the perfect person, is she ready
now or she's not ready now? She's not ready now? Okay?
And okay, that's another phrase, though, will a will she
ever be ready? She'll never be as ready as she
wants to be. She's gonna get a little nudge from
me and maybe from you as well, um, because she's
going to have to go out there and get outside
(25:38):
of her comforts. And I always say to her, you
don't have to walk a mile outside your comfort zone,
but you do need to walk a couple inches outside. Well,
you're not by yourself. And and then here's a juxtaposition
that you know, to dance in front of billions of
people is an incredibly nervy thing. She that's got to
be way harder than meeting somebody for office, not if
(26:00):
it's not intimate. Not for Cheryl. Yeah, I'll never see
these people again. Well, and the thing is is, have
you ever met someone who's really great socially social butterfly
great at a party, but then they don't have long
lasting relationships because they're really good at one level of socializing,
but the next level, the more intimate level, is terrifying.
(26:21):
And that's Cheryl. You're looking at her and then we're
not like, I don't have long I mean like, look, yes,
but she means intimate. I mean yes, and I don't.
I was not speaking of you, but I mean that
A part of that is, yeah, because you have had
long lasting intimate relationships, but there's fear yes for you,
you're based yea wo um. It's like sort of peeling
(26:45):
an onion to a degree. Are you ever surprised? I imagine?
And will you? Cheryl's the example because it's her show
and we're here. She walked into the office and you
thought a and then as things progressed, it was not
a long yeah when she first walked in. Honestly, she
(27:07):
carried herself from my perspective, as an insecure woman, and
today she carries herself far more securely. The way she stood,
the way she greeted me, it was I could tell
that she didn't believe in herself to some degree. I
was also heavily drinking then as well, which is not
an excuse. I totally hear you, which I didn't know
(27:27):
at the time. Yeah, and you have been very and
you and I've talked about this many times, and we
talked about it publicly. You've been very candid about all
that is that is that like a sidebar thing or
does that need to be looked at her? I mean,
I can just answer for me personally that I feel
like I'm relearning myself because I am a different person
(27:48):
soer and I don't have anything to really numb as
far as be a different person because I'm foggy up
in the area. Well. And the thinking about addiction and
in alcoholism is that there's us a delay or like
a stop in your development and growth um emotionally and mentally,
(28:09):
so forever many years. How many years was it used
to one actually, so a lot of years, and so
there there is a delay. They say people who let's say,
did it for ten years, are ten years younger psychological,
and then if you've got child molestation involved and then abusive,
you know, this goes on. So technically I'm five years old.
(28:32):
What one thing that I've had friends who have, you know,
been single after college and then whatever, married and then
single again in forties and one. I don't know. I
don't want to use the word gripe, but I guess
I'll be honest to use the word gripe. Gosh, everybody
has so much baggage now or is it just everyone's
vote voicing it? Maybe more? Well, I think when we're
(28:55):
in our twenties, there's a lot of fantasy involved in
marriage and relationship at Like, we we meet someone and
within a year or two were engaged, and there's this
whole fantasy element of what the spouse is going to be.
By the time you're divorced and doing it again, that
fantasy is gone. The worst has happened. It's the notebook. Yeah,
(29:20):
I mean, I use the word prescription and quotes. What's
the prescription for Cheryl? She has to get to know
who she is, she has to well, let's stop there.
What does that mean? Well, if I ask you, Cheryl,
can you name Come on, this is bullshit. Can you
name three traits about yourself? I am loyal and trustworthy.
(29:43):
I am right, It's like what is my favorite color? Um?
I am loyal and trustworthy, I am dependable and a
hard worker. Okay, so stop for a second. Any guy
in the world wants a woman who's loyal and trustworthy,
who is dependable, because nobody that's the Southern California delemmat.
(30:05):
Nobody's dependable. Not a hard work, not a hard worker. Not. No,
they do want I don't believe that, not all men.
I do think that being a very hard worker is
sometimes hard. But I'm like some hard work and I'm
not like a hard worker. I'm like a hardcore worker.
She's hyper productive. Yeah, And I think the thing that's
(30:26):
hard about that for men at times that she's dated
in the past or that she may date in the future,
is that they feel they have to be very productive
as well. They can't chill out, they can't relax, they
have to keep up with her, and no one's going
to keep up with that feeling, right, Yeah, which is
actually I'm not necessarily proud of. By the way, right,
it's got good and bad parts. And the thing is,
(30:48):
I don't think the guy you should be with should
be as hyper productive as you. We would never see
each other, right, He should be able to, you know,
chill you out a little bit, be able to I
am also very insecure like I that we can add
to the list because it's like I need someone to
at the end of the day kind of calm me
down in that sense. Right, Okay, one thing that we
(31:11):
that you just said, you know and the guy should
be X, Y or Z. Is the guy the ultimate solution?
And is there is there is number that it always is.
Oh yeah, it's such a myth. It's such a fantasy
that a man or a woman for anybody can change
your whole life and make you happy again with the
(31:31):
romantic comedies have done this tation. But yeah, no, the
solution is within her, amen, sister, and how does she
find that? So I asked her three traits and those
were good traits, right, she said she's dependable, hardworking, and loyal.
So hardworking is the only one of those traits she
(31:52):
mentioned that is not relational, right, dependable as you, I'm
a hard working so I can put a roof over it, right,
But hard working is just about you. That is just
about You're right, it's not bad, it's not negative things
nice to myself. Yeah, I'm just pointing out that you
have defined yourself more in terms of another. And by
(32:12):
the way women do this, we've been taught to do
this from very young So you know, usually when I
ask women to define themselves, well, I'm really giving and
caring and nursuring. Yeah, Like, but are you also intelligent
and interesting? And she's funny? I am funny? Yeah, us,
I am so hysterical. So what do you think people
(32:34):
listening to this? I mean, I think as we go
along the process there, I don't know if they'll be
tasks necessarily how could people help? Are you nervous that
I'm letting people help? No, I think it's great because
I sometimes have this wish that I could choose partners
for lots of people, because because we are all drawn
to people that feel familiar, that feel like home, and
(32:58):
in some cases that's great. Look at those happily married people.
They've married people that feel like mom and dad. So like,
I'm anxious attachment and most likely be with avoidant attachment.
So and an attachment as a whole area of study
that relates to relationships. But for Cheryl, you know, she
might be drawn to someone that feels like home to her,
(33:18):
not as positive away, which is not warm and fuzzy,
not necessarily I was. I really struck by that feels
like home because the thing that was so funny is
the my my wife's name is Leslie, and we met
literally on a blind eate and then but we we
know we like like a fixing, like a totally blind age,
(33:42):
and we um, what's the phrase I'm looking for? Immediately
felt familiar. And I did not go to her high school,
but I went to the one like next door, and
we had relatively similar up. That phrase feels like home
strikes me tremendously. That's exactly good memories with that, right, Yeah,
like home is definitely darker. Yeah, And it's not to
(34:04):
say that everything is bad about her family. That's not
the case at all. But there are pieces and experiences
she's had, specifically things that are traumatic, are very difficult,
that she's going to seek out without realizing it, and
then she's going to be in a relationship with someone
who makes her feel that same bad way she felt
as a kid in order to work through it unless
(34:25):
I do it within myself first. Yes, I I told
dr Axley that my wife is not practicing, but has
trained as a therapist and has practiced in the past.
And I used this phrase once, which corrective emotional experience. Well,
that's what they say therapy, is that I agree that
certain relationships can be a corrective emotional experience. If you shy.
(34:47):
That means that Let's say you've never been listened to
your whole life, and you just don't feel important because
no one's ever listened to you. And you meet a
man who just rapidly listens to you and lets you
know you're heard. That will that will will almost cure
that part of you that feels not important enough to
be listened to. It correct How I would feel disgusted though,
(35:08):
this isn't really because you're not ready interesting. Yeah. Yeah,
it's almost like I don't like the nice guys. No,
I'm not going to say like I'm much better than
I was, but man, was it really difficult for me
to you know, let that ink? Well, and that's going
to be a key issue for you. That's the key
because a guy who is available, interested and wants to
(35:30):
know you you might not be open to maybe not,
and maybe I would try to trigger him, you know,
into like the old patterns. So yeah, I know I'm
not ready by just saying that. So maybe we should
warn the gun warning. You need to be a couple
of things. You need to the fact that she's so
physically accomplished, like I'd say that's a plus. Definitely, Yeah,
(35:53):
physically accomplished. What does that mean? You're you're an afthlete, athlete,
an athlete, you're pessional athletes like okay, and you're fit.
I know you don't like to hear compliments, but you
are also dealing with body dysmorphia. Jesus, how long have
people got like this might take a few years. We've
got lots of issues out This onion is a big one,
(36:16):
lots of layers. Yeah, I mean, I think one of
the things that has to happen is you have to
start orienting your orienting yourself to the idea that you
should be open to a man who's nice, who's kindly.
I don't think I think I am definitely you are
what open to meeting a nice man but later in life,
(36:39):
but I definitely I do if you remember, like I
get really sensitive when I see or when there's any
type of triggers for me when it comes to um
emotional abuse, right, and so, but what I need to
do is instead of cut that person off completely, I
mean there is a gray area, right, So, like I
think I've gone to the opposite now now I need
(37:00):
to find that middle where it's like I can stick
up for myself without actually saying you're like out of
my life completely, right. And that's one of the ways
to find out who you are and who the other
person is is to set that boundary. Someone says or
does something that you're not comfortable with, you let them
know I'm not comfortable with this, and that that's what
I'm still, like you were saying earlier, If you go
to dinner, it doesn't mean you're ready to sleep with them, right,
(37:21):
And I always say no all the way up to
the end. There are laws about them of people listen
to this right now, it's like my brother's a nice guy.
I know this other guy, and you hear this lament
all the time that nice guys don't get anywhere, and
it's these bad talk, deep conversations, and it's these bad
guys who get everywhere. Yeah, I mean I don't believe that,
(37:46):
but I think nice guys meet nice women that have boundaries. Yeah,
the idea that you would only be able to be
with a bad guy or a bad boy like that's
not right, very black and white. Yeah, that has to
shift and change. I do think though it's right. It's
(38:06):
on a spectrum, right, it is gray. It's many many
shades of gray, and you just have to slide down
the spectrum from very bad to a guy. Maybe maybe
the bad thing he does is, you know, he goes
out with you too late at night or something like that.
I mean, that's the lying I am very sensitive honestly,
is a key key it is. It is actually the
(38:28):
number one thing for me or else. I feel betrayed
right away. I'll never trust you again. And you have
to understand it's the littlest ship. Yeah, I mean, it
could be something as small as as a guy says, oh, yeah,
I just got home. Sorry didn't call you. I just
got home, But that got home thirty minutes prior. She'll
be upset. Alright, I've been a little bit better, but alright.
(38:51):
Using that as an anecdotal example, isn't that a little much. Yes, yes,
well I think no, But I mean what I think
it is is that you have to be able to acknowledge. Okay,
this makes me uncomfortable. I feel scared that he's lying
to me. But this is not this is what I
used to say. It's a fib well there. Yeah. When
it comes to time, yes, yeah, time. You got to
(39:14):
like that location, like I'm I'm really at this woman's
house to say that, like whatever you're you're shopping when
you're actually not. If he's not buying you a gift
yet problem exactly. Good lies are okay when they're buying
you a gift, but no, I mean you are. You're
very sensitive about lying in honesty, and I think that
(39:36):
some of the change has to come within you and
be able to think that every every expression that is
not accurate is not a lie. I just don't get
it though, I don't understand. I'm not like that. I'm
very accurate. I mean I will text it to you
and I'll be long, but like I'm at, I am
all facts. I think sometimes it when a sense of
(39:58):
a mission is what people know. It's just I could
tell you the forty five reasons why I didn't call you.
It took me half an hour to call you. But
none of them are interested. You know. It's it's you know,
I had to I had to unload my car three times,
so that took ten minutes, and then I had to
let the dog out and you know, blah blah blah
blah blah. Woman before Um not really, no, I think,
(40:22):
because I too let me polish my own halo. I
feel I have a really good picker, like I'm friendly
with old girlfriends, and I feel for the most part,
I've done, I've picked well. So you came from the
happy home. But yes, my parents were no divorce. No,
And you know, it's so funny and then and there's
obviously a slight age disparity between me and the two
(40:44):
of you. But when I went to elementary school, not
for Western elementary school, just down the way, um, there
was one family that was divorced and it was a scandal,
and you know, and so now it's it's such a
contrast with my kids. It's nothing at all. It was
it was a huge oh my god. When the person
(41:06):
was still in school right like third or fourth grade. Inside,
oh my gosh, she's the only single mother here. Yeah,
and that's not the case. No, that's not the case
anymore whole um. But yeah, that makes a big different.
You are who you were away unless you want to
change it. I think. Well, now we'll get to analyzing me.
(41:27):
Nearly is interesting or it is capella or is challenging?
I think? Or will it? I'll see when I get
more comfortable with you, Sam, you're screwed. Yeah, but I
do think something you can do to get yourself more ready,
to be ready for somebody who's honest, but not one
because honestly, honestly, nobody's a hundred honest nobody is Okay, yes,
(41:51):
it's not work that detail out later because I'm very
you know, my brain right now is like, what if
you do and then this? Can I call you out? Though?
Let me let me call you out cat? So you
say your honest. But the truth is if someone said
to you, hey, can I borrow this? Or do you
want to go to this place with me? And I
don't want to and you don't want to go, you
(42:12):
would not say, you know, I'm just not comfortable with
you borrowing. I must say. There was a text message
message exchange with somebody who was like literally asking me
for a favor, and I said, actually, I actually don't
feel comfortable nice and I that's very new because it
was very nerve wracking leading up to that. But yes,
you're right, I would. I am not honest. But if
(42:35):
you practice those being able to notice, notice the difference
that it isn't always a person who's a liar because
they say, oh, I have plans tonight, I don't I
can't go, versus saying I don't want to go with you. Right,
Sometimes it's just kind are trying to be kind? All right?
So Cheryl laid out some really nice snacks for all
(42:58):
of us, and when when we part company today, I
don't want to take all of them with me, but
I want to take some of them with think that's fine,
you'll be lucky if you can have one. But thank
you for practicing. Yes, good example. Good example. Wait does
a couple mean too? Because some people say a couple
(43:20):
of am I mean three? Four? Anything plus two is
a few? Um, she's not hopeless. There's hope. There's definitely
hope because she imagine if you were like she's hopeless
and the podcast is over. No, I you know the
thing is we all are works in progress. The idea
that she's the only one who needs help is not real.
(43:42):
We all are works in progress. She she has to
work on herself, and I just have the courage just
to lay it all out in the line right now, because,
by the way, it's very selfishly, very therapeutic for me, because,
like what Anne said earlier, I probably prefer doing this
than having an intimate conversation with somebody and sitting and
being as open as I am now. Yeah, but I
do have to give you credit that you've been processing
(44:04):
a lot of your tough emotions in the last few months.
You have been doing it, which is new for you.
So but it's gonna get you to where you need
to go. Yeah, I think we're gonna take a quick break.
(44:27):
Welcome back, guys, to Burke in the game here with
my therapist for seven to eight years, I think we've
worked together now Dr Anne Wexler and my podcast dad,
even though he hates me saying that Sam Reuben k
t l a Sam Reuben. So basically, I guess we
should tell Dr Wexler what the premise of the show
is that I would be helpful, sure, and then ask
our audience and listeners the first question that they get to. Um. So,
(44:51):
so one thing that we are sort of kicking around
now that now that Cheryl is quote unquote free to date,
when would be a good opportunity to start doing that?
And I guess the framework of the question is simply this,
for people who are listening. After a big breakup or
after a divorce, when did you first feel comfortable going out?
(45:15):
How long was it a week later? Was it six
months later? Was it a year later? During? Was it
two hours later? And I think everybody has a different
duration though, don't you think? Yes? And I bet you
it's going to be different from men and women. Men
are much quick, men are much quicker than Yeah, of
course it's during kidding that has been your experience at times.
(45:36):
At times, um yeah, and okay, As as we let
people process that and and feedback d M, and we're
gonna put a poll up in all these different ways
to get that information that you have back to us
as we do that, as we what do you will
you think you're never going to be ready? No? No,
I think I will be ready. But I think that
part of this process, or let's say, part of this experiment,
(46:00):
surrender experiment, is not just like find share on a
date tomorrow now, because I'm actually not ready for dating
tomorrow um or maybe not next week, maybe not for
another few months, maybe not for a year, I don't know.
But in the process, how can I evolve into being
able to date in the future and what are those steps?
And maybe the listeners could help with the guidance of
(46:23):
that for people that you know, other women also that
have gone through what I'm going through and may currently
feel the way I feel, you know, I think it's
important that they know that they're not alone. I think
that is very very well said. And as you were
saying that, I was thinking of people who I know,
people who have done this, like in a practice way,
like you know what I'm gonna go out with with
(46:46):
you know, truly in capital letters, with just a friend,
but we're going to go through the motions of a date,
like I'm going to get you know, dressed up and
ready for the date and we'll go to dinner. Or
what's the difference between going out with their friend and dating.
I just actually it's a real question, but there no yes,
because Okay, what one thing in this this I don't
(47:08):
think I've ever gone on a date. On a date
what I don't remember. I don't remember the last time
I went on like a date. Well, you guys went
places or yes, but I mean like a date meaning
like high nice to meet you date right when I
also had two years of a pandemic during the totally yeah,
but for something. My first job out of college, I
was a magazine writer, and I had expense account and
(47:30):
so I had to go out to dinner anyway, And
so the format of dating was really right off was
appealing to me because I because honestly, because I was
going to go to dinner, see, I would rather just
order another meal for when I'm hungry later and then
go out with another person. So maybe, in terms of
stepping a little out of your comfort zone, that means
(47:50):
going out a little bit without it being a date.
You're not ready yet that maybe when will I know
I'm ready? Actually, like, maybe I'm just being stubborn. Maybe
I'm just building this fear up in my head. That's
part of the social phobia. But what is your inner
voice say about why you're not ready? Because I'm not
ready to give or even listen until I listen to
(48:10):
me for like, I haven't been filled up, yet inside
I feel like it is the wound is still open. Yeah,
for sure. And for me to pretend that I'm ready
to even sit with another gender and someone I don't
know who is not my friend is just not something
I'm ready for. Well, but you did say something interesting.
(48:31):
You're not ready to give, right, because I think for you,
relationships are about you giving, and you don't think about
relationships listening to Like, I don't know if I'm even
ready to be curious about somebody else's life. Right. But
the thing that I think you're not aware of that
you have to get more, get your head around a
little bit, is that in a relationship, you get and
(48:52):
you give interesting. So oh I okay, then I have
to also learn how to it right. You have to
open yourself up to receiving. There you go. Yeah, I
remember very very very very vividly, And I thought, and
maybe this is some aspect of the fact that she
studied and trained and was a therapist. Um, my wife
(49:15):
used to live in Manhattan Beach and so that it's
a fabulous place to walk. We'll just take these long,
long walks on the strand. And this almost sounds like
a cliche. But she was like, you're just you're looking
for a soft place to land, and I was like,
oh am I ever And I just thought that was
(49:35):
like I was so struck by that phrase, and I
was like, oh my god, that was what I divorced
into and date. And one thing that is I do
think gender related. This maybe gender Southern California related. I
think there's a lack of quality men. I think if
you're if you're a guy, I was, if you were
(49:56):
fourty years old, you have a job, and you have
a car, you can date and body in the universe.
It's like, it's shocking how well men can do. Or
is that just the perspective that we're in the entertainment business.
Maybe maybe it's maybe there's some good guys, but I
think in generals and social media and telephones or cell
phones have gotten it's just people prefer just to swipe
(50:17):
left and I definitely don't want to do that. I
believe in men more than you do. I think there
are many, many quality men in the city and saying
I hear women all the time say they're not enough
quality men in l A. And I just feel like
it's a it's an excuse there are many other professions
here besides the entertainment, absolutely, of course. And one this
(50:37):
is true at least in my own life. I always
joke about this. I don't have any friends and I
don't know anybody who show business. I cover show business,
not my friends, right, No, No, But I'm saying, and
it is uh And I always think. To my wife's credit,
she she was like, this is like three days since
she goes. Oh, I I think I saw you on
(50:58):
a bus board once, but I've I've never I've never
wanted to know who you were at all, and really perfect.
I swear I know you're just from the hearing your voice,
But I really I really preferred that. I thought that
was good. That would be probably impossible for you, But
would you actually prefer I mean, like, if we're to
be specific here, there is this neuroscientist that's really hot
(51:19):
and I'm really into studying the brain. He goes Stanford,
and that's all I'm saying. But I have noticed that
I don't want to have the conversation of the same
dancing like I that's what I do for I would
love to learn from my future partner. Yeah, and by
the way, that's something about you. You're respect the future partner.
(51:43):
That's the main big thing too. Well, it's hard for me.
You're very curious. You're a really curious person, and you
soak up information, you read, you learn all the time.
So I think it would be really great for you
to have someone who knew different things and you could
teach each other. You would that annoy the ship out
of me. I'm just like trying to, like I always said,
to play it out too far back when I'm I've
(52:04):
just my brain is on a whole another Like I
just played out about ten different scenes in the matter
of this conversation. So like or because I always thought
that I wanted to maybe, Oh, my trainer is kind
of hot. This is like obviously before I was married
and I dated my trainer and I was like, stop
telling me what to fucking do, you idiot, Like that
was your relationship. But maybe this is I hope it's
(52:24):
not like that with a neuroscientist. Already alright to neuroscientists asides,
We have a neuroscientist on our show who every all
the women love. He's a family man, but you know,
people talk about hole passes or whatever. He's America's Hale,
passing love Dr John Deal. People think he's most handsome
(52:45):
man alive, and he's like the surgeons. I digress. But
once Cheryl decides to get out there, for example, going
to like a lecture about neuroscience, I'd rather just do
it on my computer. Okay, see, I think, But we're
fighting at two battles here, right. What are the two battles?
Social phobia and me just not being wanting to leave
(53:06):
my house. Well, and the social phobia piece you have
to push through because you can't see this is when
I would drink. No drinking. No, Obviously, you can't meet
someone and you can't date. You can't have a relationship
unless you get out of your house. Then not nowadays
people will fight you for that. Well but but but
and then the one thing though that you said as
we began all this, and I think you were doing
(53:27):
this in a self deprecating way. Here I am, by
the way, in your very beautiful house alone. It's just
me and my dog, and that to me, you said
we don't want any visitors people. No, no, but you
said it was sort of the negative connotation. It's like,
you know, it's well, it's just lonely yeah. Sure, Yeah,
it's lonely and it's also but then I've also enjoyed it.
(53:47):
But then now I made this whole house like Fort
Knox because I've been paranoid like being alone here in
this house, you know. But what about stepping out of
your coort comfort zone a little bit? That's yeah, and
that's why I'm here. Yeah, you're gonna have to leave.
I actually have to. This is the whole experiment, right, Yeah,
And maybe I'll like it, and maybe I will throw
(54:08):
a temper tantrum, which is highly likely, but I can
still throw a tantrum and still leave the house doing
it well. And by the way, a date doesn't have
to be all output, all you being funny and interesting
and all of that. The other person is coming to
the table with something and you don't know what that's
gonna be, so you're gonna be going several inches out
of your comforts. Yeah. Well, with this concludes episode one.
(54:31):
Well done, Sheryl, you did great, And we're gonna explain
to to folks watching and listening exactly how you can
get much more intimately involved happiness mental health is completely
in your hands. But not to put too much on
anybody and I could just blame everybody, but this was
fun and really interesting. Caryl, you are I think you've
(54:53):
accomplished the first goal. I think you're being very candid
and very vulnerable. Thanks. This is actually I'm, like I
said earlier, sweating in places I've never slept before. Um,
but thank you, Dr Wexler. I know that this is
probably weird for you a little bit. I've never done
it before, but um, I learned a lot actually good
And thank you to my podcast dad. When you're on
(55:17):
not on my ship list, I'll call you my big brother.
Thank you, but thank thank you guys, and thank you
to the listeners for listening to Burke in the Game.
Thanks so much for listening. Help Cheryl out. Follow us
at Burke in the Game b U r k E
Burke in the Game on Instagram and Twitter. You can
email us at Burke in the Game at I heart
(55:39):
radio dot com. Thanks for listening and coming along this
journey with me. If you like what you hear, then
feel free to give this podcast five stars. You can
also follow along with my journey on Instagram at Burke
in the Game and if you have any advice or
want to write in, then email me at Burke in
the game at i heeart radio dot com.
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