September 17, 2025 • 41 mins
A conversation with the lifelong nerd behind the first Indigenous comic bookstore and Comic Con. Explore his work and hear how he’s uniting minds to create what’s next.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is burn Stage, Burn Bridges. I'm your host, Nicole Garcia.
I want to call this Indigenered. Is that okay, because
that's like your name.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Oh, it's perfect. Yeah. I go by doctor Indigenered because
there's people that like to take on the mantra of indigenered,
which is great. That's why I put the doctor in
front of mine. I'm like, I am doctor Indigenera.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
This is doctor Lee Francis the fourth.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
There's a longer history to it, but the family name
way back was Atsy and came from Powatei so Guisi
so Puadi village, and then they moved and lived. My
aunt Jesse lived on the corner, so if you're going
up towards Lucuna main village, she used to have her
house like right there where you make the left off
of where sixty six would have been. It's interesting because
(00:48):
when I was teaching, that was one of the things
that I taught my students was to really recognize that,
you know, even in the hierarchy of sort of like
marginalized people's right, that they were actually very very lucky
to be able to point to a house that they're
a great great, great, great great grandparents built and lived
(01:09):
in continuously, as opposed to a lot of our other relations,
right who were forcibly removed, who can't point to that space.
So I was like, you guys are incredibly you know,
it's incredibly beautiful and lucky, and please remember how you
know incredible this is that I would always tell them that,
like this is this is truly your family home, like
(01:30):
you know, the DNA is built into the side of
this this house from your family that goes back seven generations,
and recognize that you have you have a privilege and
you need to be grateful to creation for that. Right.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Yeah, that is so amazing about Pueblo people because they
keep together and their stuff. They don't let people in,
and I think that's kind of good. Can't share everything.
We're we're kind of known for that, so we lose
a lot of things being Navajo and scattered, you know,
and we kind of have a central area that I'm
definitely connected to. But you all really you really do
(02:07):
have it like it's they're legit from that long ago.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Yeah, and I think that's I mean again, that's where
I say it's such a you know, I wanted my
kids to recognize how not only beautiful, but how lucky, right,
because many of us didn't have that luck. Many of
our folks didn't get that. And I mean obviously we
were you know, we were definitely sort of like domestic, right.
We made apartments, we made the houses, we wanted to
(02:31):
settle in one place. Many of our relatives were much
more nomadic, but but still in all we still had
that homeland. And I think that that's super special and
super important. And always telling my kids being like, be aware,
this is important, you know, when I was teaching.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
And it's so nice. I mean, people are still replicating
the same design because it is a very appealing design.
It looks very nice, picked a perfect location. Did it
start with the comic bookstore or the comic book the
need of realities? Like the press?
Speaker 2 (03:02):
It started with the press coming out of twenty fourteen,
twenty twelve. Really, it actually started with a conversation I
had with Arrogant Starr out in Cherokee, Oak Cherokee, North Carolina.
She was either she had just put out Super Indian
as a comic or she was right about to put
out Super Indian the first volume. So like she was
like right in that phase. And I think she'd been
doing this web comic and we're stay out of ligne,
(03:25):
just joking around, like, man, wouldn't it be great if we
had this like a comics authority sticker, you know, like
we had a little comics code authority, but like an
indigenous comics code, you know, kind of like the old
comics code, you know, and just like to put on
stuff that was like, you know that it would be
certified native fresh right, either with the representation was correct
or was by a Native person, right, like, so something
(03:46):
that instead of having like, you know, some of this
weak you know, historicized powows and feathers and the whole thing,
we had you know, something that like, you know, even
if it was non native, they went and hung out
with Native folks. So we just started joking around about that.
Thought that was hilarious. We'll laugh and laugh and laughing.
And the week later she had drawn up this little code.
She just made a little design for it, and I
(04:06):
was like, we should probably why don't we do something
with this. Let's put like a like a book together.
And so she knew some comic folks and I knew
a few comic folks, and I was running a nonprofit
that I took over from my dad. I took over
Wordcraft Circle, and I said, well, why don't we just
publish this thing about like little comics, like just hate
you know, single pages, twelve pages from all these artists,
(04:27):
and we'll just hate it out. We'll just put comics out,
you know, to everybody. And that was twenty twelve, I
want to say twenty eleven, twenty twelve, and that was
that was like the first that was the first run
at this And then twenty fourteen I graduated and was
working at Laguna. We were trying to get a school
started and didn't quite pan out the way we had
hoped for. But I started, like in my spare time
(04:51):
as my side hustle. I was like, well, let me
just keep making some comics, and so we started putting
out some comics. That first run was called Indigenous Narratives Collective,
and first comic was was I and C's Universe. I
actually have a copy of it right here. Someone just
gave me a copy. So this is what it looked like.
It had twelve pages, and we had, you know, several
Native artists that just kind of talked about it's either
(05:12):
a page of their work or talked about be like
why they drew comics or being in comics, et cetera.
The big first one that we did was Tales of
Mighty co Talkers and that came out the same year
as the Comic Conk. What I love is that people
also pass stuff on to me. So there was an
old comic book. It's a Navajo comic book that they
had commissioned about uranium and the old minds of like
(05:38):
not going into the old minds like and it was
all illustrated. It was a comic book for community. It
came out in the seventies. I just found out, like
this brand new. It's not brand new. She came out
in the forties, but first Alaskans, right, So an Alaskan
Native character who had her own comic book three or
(05:58):
four months before Wonder Woman. I mean it was old,
sort of schlocky nineteen forties comic style, but she was
totally like this powerhouse, you know, and and you know,
just rock them, sock them, but for her community, right,
so it was about taking care of her people. Is
a non native illustrator that did it. But like I
was like, did he had to have hung out with us? Right?
(06:20):
Like he had to have hung out with folks because like,
like I mean again, it's schlocky and its forties and
so the style is, you know, it's rambunctious, and I mean,
if you ever read any of those old comics, they're great,
They're just they're just you know, the writing is a whot.
But I'm just kind of like to write that early on.
You know, that's something that that I was, like, I
just added that knowledge because I went there, right, So
(06:41):
people will pass me some of the stuff, which I
absolutely adore, Like I love getting like this because part
of it is also for me, is trying to create
a bit of a repository in some of these places
and spreading the knowledge of you know, like of native
folks that have done comic book creation work, right or
where native comic characters have you know, maybe not been
(07:04):
drawn by like you know, native folks, but have been
like they like just kind of talking about native characters. So, like,
anytime people get the chance to tell me about you know,
cool comics or something that came out, like I get
this PDF of this thing that came out in the seventies, right,
or you know, talking about Mutton Man, you know, talking
(07:25):
about you know, the Vinsit Craig and Mutton Man, and
so that's a lot of This is one of the
things I love about the work that I do is
is also being a bit of a historian. From twenty
fourteen to twenty sixteen, it was really just kind of
like running, you know, running comics and putting the comic
books together, and then just kind of like, well, why
don't we have a trade show, Like why don't we
do our own trade show, because like like this is great,
(07:48):
but like I want to get everybody together because I'm
sitting here online people are going to like this, you know,
Indigenous Gamers convention, like in Iceland, there's you know, saw
Me Land, you know, then up in Territory and I
was like, oh, I want to go. And then like
I see everybody that's gonna be over it, like you know,
they're over at Sundance, and I was like, I want
to go, you know, and then everybody's like, you know,
(08:09):
all the comic nerd like you know, I start showing
up to comic cons at that point, and I'm like,
I'm the guy at Common, I'm the Native rep at
comic Con. I was like, I want more for this,
and then like all the writers in sci fi and fantasy,
they're going to there cause I want to go there too.
I like to say that it was both, you know,
altruistic and selfish simultaneously for launching comic Con. For a
day of the comic con was like, I just wanted
(08:30):
to get everybody in one place so that we can
all hang out together. I mean, little did I know
that as the organizer, I don't get to hang out
with anybody because I have to run around and do everything.
But you know, the thought was pure that I was
just like, oh, I just want us all to be
in the same room. The other things of just being
able to showcase native brilliance and talent, that was the
start of all this. I'd like to take a little credit.
(08:52):
I know, I can't take credit for talent. What I
can't take credit is giving a platform for talent, and
it gave an opportunity for people to really showcase that,
to recognize it, and then they could take it from there.
I remember early on coming out of that first comic
Con was we'd get requests for our vendor list and
our artist alley because there were people in the industry
(09:13):
that were looking for the artists and looking for folks
to be able to work with, and so they were
coming to us because this was that was the only
it was the only game in town, right, Like we're
the only ones running something like that. At the time.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Lee even supported me by screening Monster Slayer, a short
film I helped produce. You're so nice to show our
film there because our film was like an origin story
but modern with a little twist stop motion animation. I
don't know what we were thinking, awesome, yeah, yeah, but
I mean again, it was like just a group of
(09:46):
people here that were interested in all kinds of stuff.
But also my interest came from like there's like nothing and.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
It's still I mean, it's still rare, Like I mean,
I think that's what we wanted to show. And even
when we had yours, it was like the idea was
that we want to showcase these things because we want
to inspire that group to not only just be able
to have that representation, but the panoply of the kind
of representation that our non native relatives have. Right, they
(10:18):
have stop motion, they have comic books, they have you know,
deep deep myth the same mythologies, but really stories like
deep enriching stories in multiple mediums and here we are.
You know, at the time, you know, I think it's
definitely changed within the last almost ten years, but at
the time, you know, when we first started, it's just
like there's it's it's not a lot, you know. I
(10:42):
mean that was kind of at the front edge of
that jump starting phase because so much has happened within
that space is twenty sixteen. So yeah, I mean, I
that's what. I appreciate your work, and I appreciate the continuation,
you know, in those phases of you know, how we
finding different fun ways to tell stories. When we opened
(11:13):
the shop, it was really about wanting to keep the
party going. So in twenty seventeen we found just like
an open storefront. At a certain point, it started to
get really crowded in my home office because I had
all these like we had our publications. I think we
had five or six out of that point, some singles
and you know, the thick ones. But then we had
(11:33):
all this stuff from the comic cons so the flyers
and the banners and the art that people you know,
would gift me with, and you know, all this other stuff,
and I was like kind of like, where is this
going to go, and we also can't run a business
because this is in Silicon Valley. I'm not going to
have everybody just coming to my house, you know, to
work in my back office. Of like we need a space.
And so essentially it really started out as an office,
(11:55):
like we were really looking at to be like office
in the back, and you know, it's kind of like
a it was like a tasting room, right, like like
a tasting room for a brewery, you know, like that
kind of concept was like we just have a little
book stock, you know, like we just have like two
or three shelves up in the front and then the
office would be in the back and that's where we
would do everything. And somewhere along the way it turned
(12:16):
into this full fledged award winning books comic shop, like
and the first native comic shop in the world. Like
I was like this is this was interesting about how
this happened. You know, we got nominated for an Eisner Awards.
We were on the list for you know, like an
Eisener because they have a spirit of the con or
it's remember what exactly what it's called. It's essentially a
(12:37):
comic shop award. We came in second like three years
in a row for the Albuquerque best of we you know,
we finished behind after Zombies and Albuquerque. You know, like
we're never gonna take overtake Asters Bobbies, but it's nice
to be on the list. So like we just kept
sort of building from I think we had four bookshelves
(12:58):
when we opened. I'd go back and look at the pictures,
like the the the before pictures, the opening day pictures,
and then when we closed, because we did close the
shop down just because I live on the East coast.
Now we had like twelve shelves. We had center shelves,
we had the walls were covered. We had put like
this beautiful mural that like you know from our Wool
(13:18):
of Jonesy by Jonathan Nelson, one of my buddies painted
you know, one of the panels from that. And I
was like, man, like, it was just packed.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
What happened to all the stuff?
Speaker 2 (13:28):
All the stuff is actually in our office here in
North Carolina. We're still online. We're under ATCG Books and Comics,
so we still have all the comics. We still you know,
have everything from the space and actually sending a bunch
of comics to some folks. We'd helped several folks start bookstores,
little pop up shops. So that was one of our efforts,
and we call it shop in a Box, and so
(13:48):
we basically just front a lot of merch. So that
was one of the hardest things for us, was that
we just didn't when you first get started, until you
start making revenue, you're just paying out a pocket. Everybody has,
you know, a credit card on file, or has done
a comic con, or has the resources. So what we
do is we just essentially say like, well, if you
want to get this started, just listen, I got a
(14:10):
bunch of stock, So I'm gonna send you a box
full of it, and if you sell it, send us
some money. And if you don't sell us the books,
and you'll basically like you pay us like you would
pay wholesale. Maybe like if in six months you're not
selling anything, send us back to books. We'll take them.
Quiet Quail Books out of South California. We've had a
couple of other conversations with two other folks that were
wanting to get some stuff going. Indian Games and Comics
(14:33):
was one of the ones that we helped Lunch as
well out of Oklahoma. We've told anybody like listen, if
you want to do this, we'll send you a small
stop in a box of like, you know, a thousand
dollars worth of stuff just to get you started, like
if you want to hit a powow you know, and
we'll basically just like it's like your wholesaling, but you
don't have to front the cost on the wholesaleing. This
is the thing about the book industry in the state,
you know, and sort of the comic industry. Well, comics,
(14:55):
you have to front everything. So when you first start,
you can't get a lot of the stuff. But let's
changed slightly because more of the big publishers are coming
have come into the comic industry and so but they
give you terms that are like if you're going to
return it, they give you less of a discount. Right
if you buy them all outright, then you get a
better discount. And you know, their pricing model works as
(15:16):
their pricing model. But I was like, that can be
you know slightly you know difficult or native folks on
the reds that want to be able to start this,
that are you know, wanting to do a bookstore, but
they don't have front side money for that. They've got
to keep a job, you know, and what am I
going to do? Like sell books? And then like, now
you're saddled with two thousand dollars worth of books or
(15:38):
thousand dollars worth of books? What do I do with it?
And then I have to return it. I'd be like,
just get it and if it goes, then order more
books from us until and then you can use us
as a credit reference, like and then you can go
get signed up with all these other book distributors and
then you don't need us anymore, like buy our comics.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
It's a very good idea, and I'm glad it's not
like a Mary Kay or an Avon like right right, right,
Like what do they call those?
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Like I don't know the pyramid schemes right right?
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Yeah? Or like you know tights.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Right, I can't remember, but yeah, no, we just we're
just like let you you do what you're gonna do,
because the whole point is to get comics to kids,
especially in native communities. I don't I don't care how
they get out there, you know. I mean, and if
I was like, it's I've already we've already bought and
paid for the books, so not like a big deal.
I was like, merchant is already paid for.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
The next step is combining everything under one roof.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
We're actually going to be finally launching our new websites,
so we brought everything under a new banner. Essentially, all
these little disparate pieces are all sort of coming under
one header called the Indigenous Imagination Workshop. So that's where
the bookshop is, that's the publishing as well as a
lot of new content creation. So we've been working with
(16:59):
a lot of orgs to do what we call story
ecosystem helping to build story ecosystems. So it's essentially creating
something that's tangible, something that's digital, and something that's interactive
or immersive. And so you create a story ecosystem around
these ideas. And so it's just an idea factory where
we come up with stuff or if you've got cool ideas,
(17:20):
we figure out how to get some wheels under it,
being like, all right, so how do we sort of
package that up in multiple ways? Right, So we can
do that and then let's make a little flip book
or a tiny comic out of it. Sort of these
multiple touch points, right, we try to figure out all
these multiple touch points and essentially just have fun, Like
what else can we do?
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Was looking into your dad and he seemed to be incredible.
Was he kind of like the driving force from all
of this amazing stuff that you're starting.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
I would think at least a lot of the seeds
were planned. I think the energy from my mom, you know,
was very much. She was super outgoing, you know, a
lovely person, just to good spirit, and you know, so
I think I get a lot from that from her,
and I think from my dad he planted the seeds
around sort of the nerd side of this, and really
kind of, honestly, we've entered this you know, interesting period
(18:14):
where sort of like nerded Tree is is all pop culture, right,
we're surrounded by it. In fact, there's been a little
bit of backlash to it now, right we're starting to
be just like, maybe there's something other than a superhero
movie that we can watch, you know, super honest. For him,
he just likes science fiction. He likes science fiction, you know, books,
He likes science fiction. Kind of grown up, he liked
fantasy and and encouraged reading for me. So like reading
(18:38):
early for reading people are just like, oh, my parents
have never given me a comic book, and my dad.
My dad would like just he's like here or buy
you like to read? I'll buy you all the comics
you want, you know. So I kind of had that
part within, sort of like the nerdy pop culture side.
And then we were I mean, he was a huge technophile.
We had a TRS eighty when I was growing up,
the original radio shack, personal computers super early on in
(19:00):
the house. So I think it was just like, you know,
I started gaming, you know, when I was four, you know, so,
so I think that kind of stuff, I mean, gaming
was much different back then. It was like a button
and a joystick is calico? Right.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Besides all this other stuff that you do, you're an entrepreneur,
you were a teacher. You also gotten wards for stuff
that you've written. And I love a lot of the
stuff you've done, like that ghost ghost Ripper.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Oh yeah, ghost Ripper. Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
That's amazing. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Ghost Riper came about because of the Comic Con as well,
and was probably one of my favorite projects to work on.
So it originated out of the Library Company of Philadelphia
with doctor will Fenton who was there like director of Innovation.
I can't remember what his title was at the time.
It was essentially like they were really trying to just
(19:51):
do some really creative stuff, and they brought him in
around the work that he had done on what was
called the pamphlet Wars. So this whole time period in
seventeen six before out of Philadelphia where they were just
like drafting these pamphlets, you know, Patriots versus Quakers versus
you know, like all of these power plays. And it
was really one of the original moments of when you know,
(20:15):
like the media machine kicked in in America. So he
had done his dissertation work or he had done a
lot of research on this and found the initial impetus
for all this stuff, right, and that initial impetus was
really around what they called it was the massacre of
the Conistoga people, Susqueheana Conastoga, and from these guys from
(20:36):
pax hung this band of murderers and marauders went and
murdered these Conustoga peoples out of what was originally the
original village which was known as the Indian Town. There
was six of the folks that were killed and then
sort of like finished the job in right after Christmas
seventeen sixty three in Leancaester Pennsylvania. So this is the
(21:00):
history that he gets into. This is the history that
we talked about in the book. I get this email
and it's one of the funny I love telling the
story because it's like, I just get this email and you,
I think you probably know, being in media, you just
get the emails out of nowhere. Hi, I have this
idea for this book and want to know if you
like like it and if it's going to be good.
(21:21):
That's not how we'll talks, but that's how it was
in my head when I first saw it. You get
those emails and you're just kind of like, all right, yeah,
what what's the idea? I'd love tell me more about it,
right because I'm just that's my educator, you know, good
natured side. So he tells me the story of what
he's planning, and he says, I'd like to come out
to Comic Con and I'd like to try and recruit
(21:44):
someone to be an illustrator for this. And I was like, cool, man,
it's open to you. Just let me know. I'll give
you a free pass. That's great. If you can make it,
you know, here you go. And he was like cool,
I'm like this dude's not going to show I get
that all the time, right, dude's not showing up, shows up,
sends me the email he's there. Can we meet find
some time to talk? So I was like, yeah, absolutely,
(22:06):
So we sit down and talk and he was just like,
I want you to publish it, and I was like,
that's amazing, We'd love to publish it. I was I
also like to throw my hat in the ring as
a writer, since you're looking for folks here, because they're
right as well. This is cool. And so as he's
going and interviewing people and finding their styles, especially for
the art, he stumbles across with show Ya Vitre's table.
We just finished putting out six Killer and she's like,
(22:28):
I'd love to work with Lee again, He's somebody that
I trust and no, and so we get this job.
So we start figuring out how to plot this. But
one of the things that I'd like to point out
with Ghost River, not just the content itself, but really
the way in which they went about the process, because
this is really what we ask of non natives when
we're working in communities, and one of the things that
(22:50):
we have to ask of ourselves as natives working outside
of our own communities, right is the responsibilities that we
have to do it appropriate, to do it in a
good spirit, to listen to the people, even if they're
not there in that space, their kin, their descendants may
be reading something like this. So he brought us all
(23:12):
out to Philadelphia. He brought this whole group of historians
out to Philadelphia Native folks, connected us up with the
native group in Lancaster called Circle Legacy, connected us up
with incredible Native mentors, one of whom I'm still working
with on a project named Curtis Zuniga. He actually makes
an appearance in the book as the teacher when they're
(23:33):
looking at the art. And we walked the land, We
went to kindastone Indian town. We you know, we were there,
We saw wampum, you know, we had they They created
this and crafted this experience for us, and it was
so fundamental to the way that we approached the book.
And you know, I remember just being, you know, just
(23:55):
absorbing all of this, and I remember I wrote the
first lines of the book. We were on the bus
because we're trying to condense all this information. But I
think they're like it was some of the like how'd
I end up writing that like, who who wrote that line? Well,
stop me, I'm just the I'm just the dude. Like
to the rights comics, there's a lot of pow. And
it was this that line of history is complicated, violence
is simple, because that was the first thing that struck
(24:15):
me as we're driving around of how much of all
this history that we're looking at, all this history that
we're reading, and yet it was this one act that
destroyed essentially the people at the time, they had kin
and you know, descendants that had moved on into other locations,
but you know, at that location they ceased to exist
(24:37):
and you know, in their traditional homeland. And then just
being super supportive like Will and the Library Company and
the Q Foundation being super supportive of the work with
this incredible exhibit, you know where we celebrated the native
community just sh I mean like it was packed, you know,
had this incredible opening. We talked about Ghost River, we
talked about the exhibit. There's a documentary that goes with
(24:58):
it that came out to the shop and film.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
It was beautiful and even like the imagery is very
like sad and it fits like the whole story and
I just think it's incredible that somebody was driven or
you know, found a way to get all these people
to work on this, because otherwise that story would just
have gotten lost, like every other story from a lot
of different peoples that don't exist anymore, that we would
have never known for him.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Right, And those stories get buried. And that's I think
that's that's always been like, my goal is to find
those because we have the stories that we know that
have been replicated so many times, it's it's difficult to count.
It's Pocahontas, it's saka Jaweya, you know our modern folks.
It's will a man killer, it's deb Holland, right, and
(25:41):
then so many Native men, you know, so many chiefs. Right.
I was like, you get four women and then like
a thousand chiefs, and it's always like chiefs. It's sitting bull,
it's crazy horse. It's this mythology of the American West.
And it's hard for Native identity when that's what you
have to conform to, right, Like, because I always tell
in talks that I give, I'm just like my people
(26:03):
were corn growers. Like I don't look like my northern relations.
I don't ride horses, and I am not tall and ripped.
My dad used to say, like, we're round and brown,
that's what we are, right, And I was just like,
there's an apt description. Going back to our education roots
(26:29):
is finding those stories that nobody has necessarily heard of.
It's the Code Talkers and expanding on that. It's the
depth of the Code Talkers story, right, Like, there's so
much more incredible nuance in that story that one of
these days I would love to put into a comic book.
You know. I talked with Sonnie Gorman about you know,
her dad and you know the family, and the full
(26:53):
story is so incredible, like the original the original was
it twenty nine? That story is magnificent. And for that
when she tells it, my mind is blown. I'm just
sitting there listening to her tell this incredible story, and
I was like, oh my gosh, we should put this
in a comic at some point. And I was like,
that's the story that's missing, because what we always get
is sort of the other side of the narrative, which
(27:14):
is supporting sort of the American industrial you know, American
military industrial complex, right, which is we show them overseas
everybody who soldier already. I was like, the whole lead
up for that is actually an incredible story, and then
all of the residuals from that, right, like the reason
is to why the you know, Navajo code talkers are
(27:37):
positioned the way that they are because of the battles
in the South Pacific, because of what they did, but
also recognizing that they didn't end the program until the fifties.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Speaking of like what you were talking about the code
talkers and stuff. When you look at the old pictures,
I can't imagine, like they're not old enough. Those kids
were like ten. It just like makes me so sad
to see like little little boys I know in this
like crazy chaos. But yeah, you did a code love
I actually really love that too.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Thank you. That was one of my favorite stories to
write as well, And interestingly enough found out it was
kind of a true story, like and I didn't even
have to be I didn't even know that though when
I first wrote it, right like I first wrote it,
and then we found we found a story like that
when I was talking because Ergon Star edited it and
(28:28):
we found she said she had heard a story we
never I didn't find a writing of it, but essentially
there was another story that was very similar not with
the lost love part, you know, with with sort of
the way that my narrative goes, but essentially it was
a nurse and native guy that was speaking, you know,
in language, and he's you know, yelling and hollering. She's
(28:50):
the only one that can understand him, and goes over
and talks in language and kind of gets into calm down.
It wasn't a code talker like you just did standard
native dude is what we heard, you know, so like
just kind of gets into calm down and gives him
water and then they start talking to each other. Didn't
know that story at all until you know, like after
we had written it kind of put it into the
world and someone was just like, oh, yeah, here's the story.
(29:12):
This idea of the co talker and going to war.
We do that sort of love story setup of Stephen
now in the war is she's seeing her you know,
her betrothed, her love, her boyfriend, and then you know
it's not him under the wrapping. And so that was
kind of like you know a little bit of the heartbreak, right, So,
you know, just narrative pieces to it, but also like
some of it, especially around the telegrams that actually comes
(29:35):
for a little bit from a story from Laguna. From
that idea that I mean, we lived so rurally, and
you know, movies always show like the car making the
long drive up the road, and and there were stories
of that.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Right.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
There was a story that this grandma told us about,
you know, when her husband went to work at Laguna
and this is out in the village of Siama. She said,
headlights at night. She said, we're the most terrib fine
was coming out to see them at night, right, And
she said that was the hardest part because they were
probably bringing a telegram.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Yeah, and you just have to wait and see what
direction the headlights go. I have an uncle who's passed away,
but he lived in Alaska for years of his life
and he would just come across random Navajo people and
just by hearing them speak, you know, and he'd be like,
oh my gosh, they're here, you know, and he'd make friends,
(30:27):
and then we'd get invited to things that they were
doing out here because they're like, we met your uncle
and he's all the way in Alaska, like, you know.
So that type of stuff has to happen, especially back
during that time. I'm sure different tribes sent people to war,
and yeah, and if they heard their own language, imagine
how like satisfying and comforting that would be in such
(30:47):
a crazy chaotic environment. So yeah, I'm sure there's several
stories like that in different ways.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
One of the things that that we talk about in
the book and teach from the book is that there's
both the formal and the informal program. Right, So the
formal program being like the ones that were authorized the Charity,
the chalk Tak, the Navajo, and then the other tribes
where there was an actual recruitment they were brought in
specifically for that. But there were numerous instances of the
informal groups right where it would be two Native dudes,
(31:17):
you know, or four Native three Native dudes that like
were serving in the same company, you know, or they
were serving on the same shit and they all spoke
the same language. We still have in mind to do
sort of like a volume two. Eventually. There were two
other stories that I had put down for that. One
was one that I had heard about two Muscogee guys
and that they got caught one time they were at
(31:39):
mess and they were talking to each other in U
Scogi and CEO overheard them and was like you two
come with us, right, And they were like, oh man,
we just the boarding school and they were like, come on,
we were just we had we didn't get to talk
and now and they were basically just like, you're gonna
(32:01):
be like we're sending you, you know, in this group
on land, and you're gonna stay here on the ship.
And so they talk to each other, so many stories,
so little time.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
You're doing like the mission of like bringing us together,
getting us out there and more importantly given us content
because I don't think people know these things are possible
until they see it.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
That's the part that I just love the most is
just trying to get like, you know, trying to get
just more stuff into the hands for our kids. You know,
it's a you know, now there's shelves. When I started
the bookstore, and it's not it hasn't been that long,
we didn't have that many shelves of things, and now
it takes up like two book We had like probably
four shelves, and now it takes up four bookcases of
(32:46):
native content, and so much of that has happened in
the last eight years that it's just phenomenal. It just
blows my mind. The number of kids. Books that are
coming out by Native Indigenous Centric by four about Native people, mysteries, romances.
You know what else is sci fi? Like, I think
(33:06):
there's stills and what is it? You know, Weodi Old
Bear just put out as many ship as Stars. I
think it's the name of the book Native sci Fi, right,
Like Natives in Space, I was like, just more of it.
Natives underwater and I'm not talking about Avatar, so let's
just be very clear or aquamen. Yeah, different natives. Well,
that's just there was just one Native underwater, so.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Yeah, for sure. And that stuff all is like getting
other things to happen, like Echo, and then all these
other things come of that. So it's really you're really
much like starting the seed. You're the seed person. You
are a seed keeper, I guess.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
I guess, you know, kind of like a little idea seeds.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Yeah, and so you get shows like Echo, which is
like on Hulu and done really well, and then like
even the one with the Predator, you know, right, yeah, yeah, yeah,
that was really good. There's a lot of Native horror
stories and I mean I love it.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
It's great. I think the biggest piece that we've got
coming up is our first ever East Coast in digitpop
X is going to be this November. We're back to
our November time time time slot, so November fourteenth through
the sixteenth at Duke University on the Duke campus. So
that's our that's our big lead out right now. We're
(34:23):
in that sort of like period of like, Okay, now's
the time we got to push out all the info
to get everybody excited about it because it's so funny,
because it's it's one of those things you know that
I've noticed over the years is that a lot of
this stuff has you know, essentially just sort of like regionalized.
And I I won't say that in a bad way,
but it's when you're putting stuff out. When we first
(34:44):
were doing things, it was kind of putting stuff out
so that like you know, like a lot of our
academic colleagues could schedule the time and they could you know,
be there for a conference. And I was like, but
we're not quite like that, and we don't need all
of this lead time because we're very niche. So we're
going to get the audience that is either really curious
or is already dedicated. And so this is what we
(35:05):
found is this sort of sweet spot like right now,
the sort of like two month period where it's just
gonna be NonStop. We'll do it like right when it's
in your consciousness. So we are right at that point,
which is really exciting. We got some great folks coming out.
We're really excited about just honestly being out here in
East Coast community in North Carolina and having the chance
(35:26):
to you know, kind of show folks out here. Have
had a lot of conversations with people about like just
the necessity for having like more of these high profile events,
especially here in this sort of like Upper southeast right
like you know, for for Native folks. That's you know,
that is that is parallel to as we've always said,
(35:46):
that is parallel to sort of pow wow or cultural
specific gatherings that there is also the space for these
top culture secular gatherings that are that are built around
just being you know, being fun and goofy and weird
and all those other you know, Indigenous teams.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Who who can we expect to see there? Who are
we excited to see?
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Got a lot of our great artists, Royboni Juniors coming out.
Gentry of course, part of it, Tom Ferris is gonna
be there. Also we get these really great cross cultural
connections of the folks that were you know, inviting out
to the space to be like, hey, you know you
are from you know, Roy's and Cherokee and tom you know,
kind of in Oklahoma. And then we have some you know,
(36:34):
to folks from you know, Navajo, and then we got
some folks from you know, up north. And it's like
that gives us a chance to also make stronger connections
among our relations, our relatives that are doing this fun
and cool work. You know, that that allows them to
share and experience and laugh and have a fun time together.
(36:58):
So I think that's always really great because then you know,
it's a way that we can talk to our East
Coast relatives and and you know, continue to validate their
experience with colonization and genocide. And that's to the side.
They're also a part of the narrative and and and
the way that we engage with that I think is
really important, especially when we're looking at a way of
(37:19):
trying to foster the spirit even as a method, you know,
or even as a way of healing.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
While everything that has been accomplished is great, Lee is
insistent on one thing we want more.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
A few tabletop games? What more tabletop games? There's a
few role playing games? What more role playing games? I
was like, there's so many spaces where we can tell
and ways that we can tell stories. The big thing
right now is I really want to see like toys.
Stephen Paul Judd has limited edition toys, you know, but
I was like, I'm not getting be able to play
with it though, You're not going to take it in
(37:54):
the mud, right, I was like, I want to have
stuff that's mass produced ethically for us right that we
can you know, stuffies and characters and beanie babies. You know,
I don't like to throw Indigenous in front of everything,
but indigitbabies.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
You know, like, well when it sounds like that, maybe
it just has to happen me.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
It sounds so cute, right, Like you totally get that.
We've been doing some sketch workout for kind of like
calling the res Life kids l y Fe and it's
think of like the was it the homies, so like
archetype characters, but Native I had a whole bunch of them.
Was like fried bread Grandma and like you know, res
(38:36):
Baller and you know, things like that. Right like, and
I was like, that's the kind of stuff that we
want to see ourselves in these spaces and not as
like the small group we want to be in the space.
We want the whole space. At least in this one instance,
we get to take the whole space.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
I remember my mom talking about she used to work
for like employment agencies, Department of Labor funds and stuff
and trying to get people out in this area employed.
And this is probably like in the seventies somewhere she
paid for well, using that money for Native artists to
do cartoons, and it was for Disney. So she traveled
(39:15):
to Beverly Hills, and the federal funds were paying for
these artists because that was their skill, and they were
trying to like let them make money from their skill
instead of trying to you know, assimilate them into another direction.
I and for you know, looking at these skills we
already have and finding a place for it instead of
just you know, trying to make us all programmers or
(39:37):
you know, all these jobs that aren't traditional to us
or like we're not we have to like unnaturally adapt
to them. And it feels like a contradiction to who
we really are. I'm glad it's become like a trade show,
like a place where people can go to be like
I want to work with this person. I'm going to
go there, and like maybe pitching probably happens. There's all
kinds of stuff that happens.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
Yeah, and just these wonderful story connections and collaborations with
folks that just happen organically because you're all in the
same room now, which is the best part about it.
Always my hope in this space is to provide these
you know, opportunities or just you know moments to just
that experience for folks to be together, to share, you know,
(40:18):
and enjoy and laughter. I think that's so key, and
you know, and hope folks, hopefully folks come along. That's
you know, just that we you know, we set the
table and see who wants to come join us for
the meal.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
This episode of Burn Stage, Burn Bridges was written and
produced by myself, Max Williams, and Dylan Fagan. Additional thanks
to the Next Step program special thanks to our guests
doctor Lee Francis. The fourth in Digitpop X will be
held at Duke University on November fifteenth and sixteenth. For
more information on this event check out in digitpopex dot com.
(40:56):
Thank you for listening.
This is burn Stage, Burn Bridges. I'm your host, Nicole Garcia.
I want to call this Indigenered. Is that okay, because
that's like your name.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Oh, it's perfect. Yeah. I go by doctor Indigenered because
there's people that like to take on the mantra of indigenered,
which is great. That's why I put the doctor in
front of mine. I'm like, I am doctor Indigenera.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
This is doctor Lee Francis the fourth.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
There's a longer history to it, but the family name
way back was Atsy and came from Powatei so Guisi
so Puadi village, and then they moved and lived. My
aunt Jesse lived on the corner, so if you're going
up towards Lucuna main village, she used to have her
house like right there where you make the left off
of where sixty six would have been. It's interesting because
(00:48):
when I was teaching, that was one of the things
that I taught my students was to really recognize that,
you know, even in the hierarchy of sort of like
marginalized people's right, that they were actually very very lucky
to be able to point to a house that they're
a great great, great, great great grandparents built and lived
(01:09):
in continuously, as opposed to a lot of our other relations,
right who were forcibly removed, who can't point to that space.
So I was like, you guys are incredibly you know,
it's incredibly beautiful and lucky, and please remember how you
know incredible this is that I would always tell them that,
like this is this is truly your family home, like
(01:30):
you know, the DNA is built into the side of
this this house from your family that goes back seven generations,
and recognize that you have you have a privilege and
you need to be grateful to creation for that. Right.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Yeah, that is so amazing about Pueblo people because they
keep together and their stuff. They don't let people in,
and I think that's kind of good. Can't share everything.
We're we're kind of known for that, so we lose
a lot of things being Navajo and scattered, you know,
and we kind of have a central area that I'm
definitely connected to. But you all really you really do
(02:07):
have it like it's they're legit from that long ago.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Yeah, and I think that's I mean again, that's where
I say it's such a you know, I wanted my
kids to recognize how not only beautiful, but how lucky, right,
because many of us didn't have that luck. Many of
our folks didn't get that. And I mean obviously we
were you know, we were definitely sort of like domestic, right.
We made apartments, we made the houses, we wanted to
(02:31):
settle in one place. Many of our relatives were much
more nomadic, but but still in all we still had
that homeland. And I think that that's super special and
super important. And always telling my kids being like, be aware,
this is important, you know, when I was teaching.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
And it's so nice. I mean, people are still replicating
the same design because it is a very appealing design.
It looks very nice, picked a perfect location. Did it
start with the comic bookstore or the comic book the
need of realities? Like the press?
Speaker 2 (03:02):
It started with the press coming out of twenty fourteen,
twenty twelve. Really, it actually started with a conversation I
had with Arrogant Starr out in Cherokee, Oak Cherokee, North Carolina.
She was either she had just put out Super Indian
as a comic or she was right about to put
out Super Indian the first volume. So like she was
like right in that phase. And I think she'd been
doing this web comic and we're stay out of ligne,
(03:25):
just joking around, like, man, wouldn't it be great if we
had this like a comics authority sticker, you know, like
we had a little comics code authority, but like an
indigenous comics code, you know, kind of like the old
comics code, you know, and just like to put on
stuff that was like, you know that it would be
certified native fresh right, either with the representation was correct
or was by a Native person, right, like, so something
(03:46):
that instead of having like, you know, some of this
weak you know, historicized powows and feathers and the whole thing,
we had you know, something that like, you know, even
if it was non native, they went and hung out
with Native folks. So we just started joking around about that.
Thought that was hilarious. We'll laugh and laugh and laughing.
And the week later she had drawn up this little code.
She just made a little design for it, and I
(04:06):
was like, we should probably why don't we do something
with this. Let's put like a like a book together.
And so she knew some comic folks and I knew
a few comic folks, and I was running a nonprofit
that I took over from my dad. I took over
Wordcraft Circle, and I said, well, why don't we just
publish this thing about like little comics, like just hate
you know, single pages, twelve pages from all these artists,
(04:27):
and we'll just hate it out. We'll just put comics out,
you know, to everybody. And that was twenty twelve, I
want to say twenty eleven, twenty twelve, and that was
that was like the first that was the first run
at this And then twenty fourteen I graduated and was
working at Laguna. We were trying to get a school
started and didn't quite pan out the way we had
hoped for. But I started, like in my spare time
(04:51):
as my side hustle. I was like, well, let me
just keep making some comics, and so we started putting
out some comics. That first run was called Indigenous Narratives Collective,
and first comic was was I and C's Universe. I
actually have a copy of it right here. Someone just
gave me a copy. So this is what it looked like.
It had twelve pages, and we had, you know, several
Native artists that just kind of talked about it's either
(05:12):
a page of their work or talked about be like
why they drew comics or being in comics, et cetera.
The big first one that we did was Tales of
Mighty co Talkers and that came out the same year
as the Comic Conk. What I love is that people
also pass stuff on to me. So there was an
old comic book. It's a Navajo comic book that they
had commissioned about uranium and the old minds of like
(05:38):
not going into the old minds like and it was
all illustrated. It was a comic book for community. It
came out in the seventies. I just found out, like
this brand new. It's not brand new. She came out
in the forties, but first Alaskans, right, So an Alaskan
Native character who had her own comic book three or
(05:58):
four months before Wonder Woman. I mean it was old,
sort of schlocky nineteen forties comic style, but she was
totally like this powerhouse, you know, and and you know,
just rock them, sock them, but for her community, right,
so it was about taking care of her people. Is
a non native illustrator that did it. But like I
was like, did he had to have hung out with us? Right?
(06:20):
Like he had to have hung out with folks because like,
like I mean again, it's schlocky and its forties and
so the style is, you know, it's rambunctious, and I mean,
if you ever read any of those old comics, they're great,
They're just they're just you know, the writing is a whot.
But I'm just kind of like to write that early on.
You know, that's something that that I was, like, I
just added that knowledge because I went there, right, So
(06:41):
people will pass me some of the stuff, which I
absolutely adore, Like I love getting like this because part
of it is also for me, is trying to create
a bit of a repository in some of these places
and spreading the knowledge of you know, like of native
folks that have done comic book creation work, right or
where native comic characters have you know, maybe not been
(07:04):
drawn by like you know, native folks, but have been
like they like just kind of talking about native characters. So, like,
anytime people get the chance to tell me about you know,
cool comics or something that came out, like I get
this PDF of this thing that came out in the seventies, right,
or you know, talking about Mutton Man, you know, talking
(07:25):
about you know, the Vinsit Craig and Mutton Man, and
so that's a lot of This is one of the
things I love about the work that I do is
is also being a bit of a historian. From twenty
fourteen to twenty sixteen, it was really just kind of
like running, you know, running comics and putting the comic
books together, and then just kind of like, well, why
don't we have a trade show, Like why don't we
do our own trade show, because like like this is great,
(07:48):
but like I want to get everybody together because I'm
sitting here online people are going to like this, you know,
Indigenous Gamers convention, like in Iceland, there's you know, saw
Me Land, you know, then up in Territory and I
was like, oh, I want to go. And then like
I see everybody that's gonna be over it, like you know,
they're over at Sundance, and I was like, I want
to go, you know, and then everybody's like, you know,
(08:09):
all the comic nerd like you know, I start showing
up to comic cons at that point, and I'm like,
I'm the guy at Common, I'm the Native rep at
comic Con. I was like, I want more for this,
and then like all the writers in sci fi and fantasy,
they're going to there cause I want to go there too.
I like to say that it was both, you know,
altruistic and selfish simultaneously for launching comic Con. For a
day of the comic con was like, I just wanted
(08:30):
to get everybody in one place so that we can
all hang out together. I mean, little did I know
that as the organizer, I don't get to hang out
with anybody because I have to run around and do everything.
But you know, the thought was pure that I was
just like, oh, I just want us all to be
in the same room. The other things of just being
able to showcase native brilliance and talent, that was the
start of all this. I'd like to take a little credit.
(08:52):
I know, I can't take credit for talent. What I
can't take credit is giving a platform for talent, and
it gave an opportunity for people to really showcase that,
to recognize it, and then they could take it from there.
I remember early on coming out of that first comic
Con was we'd get requests for our vendor list and
our artist alley because there were people in the industry
(09:13):
that were looking for the artists and looking for folks
to be able to work with, and so they were
coming to us because this was that was the only
it was the only game in town, right, Like we're
the only ones running something like that. At the time.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Lee even supported me by screening Monster Slayer, a short
film I helped produce. You're so nice to show our
film there because our film was like an origin story
but modern with a little twist stop motion animation. I
don't know what we were thinking, awesome, yeah, yeah, but
I mean again, it was like just a group of
(09:46):
people here that were interested in all kinds of stuff.
But also my interest came from like there's like nothing and.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
It's still I mean, it's still rare, Like I mean,
I think that's what we wanted to show. And even
when we had yours, it was like the idea was
that we want to showcase these things because we want
to inspire that group to not only just be able
to have that representation, but the panoply of the kind
of representation that our non native relatives have. Right, they
(10:18):
have stop motion, they have comic books, they have you know,
deep deep myth the same mythologies, but really stories like
deep enriching stories in multiple mediums and here we are.
You know, at the time, you know, I think it's
definitely changed within the last almost ten years, but at
the time, you know, when we first started, it's just
like there's it's it's not a lot, you know. I
(10:42):
mean that was kind of at the front edge of
that jump starting phase because so much has happened within
that space is twenty sixteen. So yeah, I mean, I
that's what. I appreciate your work, and I appreciate the continuation,
you know, in those phases of you know, how we
finding different fun ways to tell stories. When we opened
(11:13):
the shop, it was really about wanting to keep the
party going. So in twenty seventeen we found just like
an open storefront. At a certain point, it started to
get really crowded in my home office because I had
all these like we had our publications. I think we
had five or six out of that point, some singles
and you know, the thick ones. But then we had
(11:33):
all this stuff from the comic cons so the flyers
and the banners and the art that people you know,
would gift me with, and you know, all this other stuff,
and I was like kind of like, where is this
going to go, and we also can't run a business
because this is in Silicon Valley. I'm not going to
have everybody just coming to my house, you know, to
work in my back office. Of like we need a space.
And so essentially it really started out as an office,
(11:55):
like we were really looking at to be like office
in the back, and you know, it's kind of like
a it was like a tasting room, right, like like
a tasting room for a brewery, you know, like that
kind of concept was like we just have a little
book stock, you know, like we just have like two
or three shelves up in the front and then the
office would be in the back and that's where we
would do everything. And somewhere along the way it turned
(12:16):
into this full fledged award winning books comic shop, like
and the first native comic shop in the world. Like
I was like this is this was interesting about how
this happened. You know, we got nominated for an Eisner Awards.
We were on the list for you know, like an
Eisener because they have a spirit of the con or
it's remember what exactly what it's called. It's essentially a
(12:37):
comic shop award. We came in second like three years
in a row for the Albuquerque best of we you know,
we finished behind after Zombies and Albuquerque. You know, like
we're never gonna take overtake Asters Bobbies, but it's nice
to be on the list. So like we just kept
sort of building from I think we had four bookshelves
(12:58):
when we opened. I'd go back and look at the pictures,
like the the the before pictures, the opening day pictures,
and then when we closed, because we did close the
shop down just because I live on the East coast.
Now we had like twelve shelves. We had center shelves,
we had the walls were covered. We had put like
this beautiful mural that like you know from our Wool
(13:18):
of Jonesy by Jonathan Nelson, one of my buddies painted
you know, one of the panels from that. And I
was like, man, like, it was just packed.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
What happened to all the stuff?
Speaker 2 (13:28):
All the stuff is actually in our office here in
North Carolina. We're still online. We're under ATCG Books and Comics,
so we still have all the comics. We still you know,
have everything from the space and actually sending a bunch
of comics to some folks. We'd helped several folks start bookstores,
little pop up shops. So that was one of our efforts,
and we call it shop in a Box, and so
(13:48):
we basically just front a lot of merch. So that
was one of the hardest things for us, was that
we just didn't when you first get started, until you
start making revenue, you're just paying out a pocket. Everybody has,
you know, a credit card on file, or has done
a comic con, or has the resources. So what we
do is we just essentially say like, well, if you
want to get this started, just listen, I got a
(14:10):
bunch of stock, So I'm gonna send you a box
full of it, and if you sell it, send us
some money. And if you don't sell us the books,
and you'll basically like you pay us like you would
pay wholesale. Maybe like if in six months you're not
selling anything, send us back to books. We'll take them.
Quiet Quail Books out of South California. We've had a
couple of other conversations with two other folks that were
wanting to get some stuff going. Indian Games and Comics
(14:33):
was one of the ones that we helped Lunch as
well out of Oklahoma. We've told anybody like listen, if
you want to do this, we'll send you a small
stop in a box of like, you know, a thousand
dollars worth of stuff just to get you started, like
if you want to hit a powow you know, and
we'll basically just like it's like your wholesaling, but you
don't have to front the cost on the wholesaleing. This
is the thing about the book industry in the state,
you know, and sort of the comic industry. Well, comics,
(14:55):
you have to front everything. So when you first start,
you can't get a lot of the stuff. But let's
changed slightly because more of the big publishers are coming
have come into the comic industry and so but they
give you terms that are like if you're going to
return it, they give you less of a discount. Right
if you buy them all outright, then you get a
better discount. And you know, their pricing model works as
(15:16):
their pricing model. But I was like, that can be
you know slightly you know difficult or native folks on
the reds that want to be able to start this,
that are you know, wanting to do a bookstore, but
they don't have front side money for that. They've got
to keep a job, you know, and what am I
going to do? Like sell books? And then like, now
you're saddled with two thousand dollars worth of books or
(15:38):
thousand dollars worth of books? What do I do with it?
And then I have to return it. I'd be like,
just get it and if it goes, then order more
books from us until and then you can use us
as a credit reference, like and then you can go
get signed up with all these other book distributors and
then you don't need us anymore, like buy our comics.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
It's a very good idea, and I'm glad it's not
like a Mary Kay or an Avon like right right, right,
Like what do they call those?
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Like I don't know the pyramid schemes right right?
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Yeah? Or like you know tights.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Right, I can't remember, but yeah, no, we just we're
just like let you you do what you're gonna do,
because the whole point is to get comics to kids,
especially in native communities. I don't I don't care how
they get out there, you know. I mean, and if
I was like, it's I've already we've already bought and
paid for the books, so not like a big deal.
I was like, merchant is already paid for.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
The next step is combining everything under one roof.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
We're actually going to be finally launching our new websites,
so we brought everything under a new banner. Essentially, all
these little disparate pieces are all sort of coming under
one header called the Indigenous Imagination Workshop. So that's where
the bookshop is, that's the publishing as well as a
lot of new content creation. So we've been working with
(16:59):
a lot of orgs to do what we call story
ecosystem helping to build story ecosystems. So it's essentially creating
something that's tangible, something that's digital, and something that's interactive
or immersive. And so you create a story ecosystem around
these ideas. And so it's just an idea factory where
we come up with stuff or if you've got cool ideas,
(17:20):
we figure out how to get some wheels under it,
being like, all right, so how do we sort of
package that up in multiple ways? Right, So we can
do that and then let's make a little flip book
or a tiny comic out of it. Sort of these
multiple touch points, right, we try to figure out all
these multiple touch points and essentially just have fun, Like
what else can we do?
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Was looking into your dad and he seemed to be incredible.
Was he kind of like the driving force from all
of this amazing stuff that you're starting.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
I would think at least a lot of the seeds
were planned. I think the energy from my mom, you know,
was very much. She was super outgoing, you know, a
lovely person, just to good spirit, and you know, so
I think I get a lot from that from her,
and I think from my dad he planted the seeds
around sort of the nerd side of this, and really
kind of, honestly, we've entered this you know, interesting period
(18:14):
where sort of like nerded Tree is is all pop culture, right,
we're surrounded by it. In fact, there's been a little
bit of backlash to it now, right we're starting to
be just like, maybe there's something other than a superhero
movie that we can watch, you know, super honest. For him,
he just likes science fiction. He likes science fiction, you know, books,
He likes science fiction. Kind of grown up, he liked
fantasy and and encouraged reading for me. So like reading
(18:38):
early for reading people are just like, oh, my parents
have never given me a comic book, and my dad.
My dad would like just he's like here or buy
you like to read? I'll buy you all the comics
you want, you know. So I kind of had that
part within, sort of like the nerdy pop culture side.
And then we were I mean, he was a huge technophile.
We had a TRS eighty when I was growing up,
the original radio shack, personal computers super early on in
(19:00):
the house. So I think it was just like, you know,
I started gaming, you know, when I was four, you know, so,
so I think that kind of stuff, I mean, gaming
was much different back then. It was like a button
and a joystick is calico? Right.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Besides all this other stuff that you do, you're an entrepreneur,
you were a teacher. You also gotten wards for stuff
that you've written. And I love a lot of the
stuff you've done, like that ghost ghost Ripper.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Oh yeah, ghost Ripper. Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
That's amazing. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Ghost Riper came about because of the Comic Con as well,
and was probably one of my favorite projects to work on.
So it originated out of the Library Company of Philadelphia
with doctor will Fenton who was there like director of Innovation.
I can't remember what his title was at the time.
It was essentially like they were really trying to just
(19:51):
do some really creative stuff, and they brought him in
around the work that he had done on what was
called the pamphlet Wars. So this whole time period in
seventeen six before out of Philadelphia where they were just
like drafting these pamphlets, you know, Patriots versus Quakers versus
you know, like all of these power plays. And it
was really one of the original moments of when you know,
(20:15):
like the media machine kicked in in America. So he
had done his dissertation work or he had done a
lot of research on this and found the initial impetus
for all this stuff, right, and that initial impetus was
really around what they called it was the massacre of
the Conistoga people, Susqueheana Conastoga, and from these guys from
(20:36):
pax hung this band of murderers and marauders went and
murdered these Conustoga peoples out of what was originally the
original village which was known as the Indian Town. There
was six of the folks that were killed and then
sort of like finished the job in right after Christmas
seventeen sixty three in Leancaester Pennsylvania. So this is the
(21:00):
history that he gets into. This is the history that
we talked about in the book. I get this email
and it's one of the funny I love telling the
story because it's like, I just get this email and you,
I think you probably know, being in media, you just
get the emails out of nowhere. Hi, I have this
idea for this book and want to know if you
like like it and if it's going to be good.
(21:21):
That's not how we'll talks, but that's how it was
in my head when I first saw it. You get
those emails and you're just kind of like, all right, yeah,
what what's the idea? I'd love tell me more about it,
right because I'm just that's my educator, you know, good
natured side. So he tells me the story of what
he's planning, and he says, I'd like to come out
to Comic Con and I'd like to try and recruit
(21:44):
someone to be an illustrator for this. And I was like, cool, man,
it's open to you. Just let me know. I'll give
you a free pass. That's great. If you can make it,
you know, here you go. And he was like cool,
I'm like this dude's not going to show I get
that all the time, right, dude's not showing up, shows up,
sends me the email he's there. Can we meet find
some time to talk? So I was like, yeah, absolutely,
(22:06):
So we sit down and talk and he was just like,
I want you to publish it, and I was like,
that's amazing, We'd love to publish it. I was I
also like to throw my hat in the ring as
a writer, since you're looking for folks here, because they're
right as well. This is cool. And so as he's
going and interviewing people and finding their styles, especially for
the art, he stumbles across with show Ya Vitre's table.
We just finished putting out six Killer and she's like,
(22:28):
I'd love to work with Lee again, He's somebody that
I trust and no, and so we get this job.
So we start figuring out how to plot this. But
one of the things that I'd like to point out
with Ghost River, not just the content itself, but really
the way in which they went about the process, because
this is really what we ask of non natives when
we're working in communities, and one of the things that
(22:50):
we have to ask of ourselves as natives working outside
of our own communities, right is the responsibilities that we
have to do it appropriate, to do it in a
good spirit, to listen to the people, even if they're
not there in that space, their kin, their descendants may
be reading something like this. So he brought us all
(23:12):
out to Philadelphia. He brought this whole group of historians
out to Philadelphia Native folks, connected us up with the
native group in Lancaster called Circle Legacy, connected us up
with incredible Native mentors, one of whom I'm still working
with on a project named Curtis Zuniga. He actually makes
an appearance in the book as the teacher when they're
(23:33):
looking at the art. And we walked the land, We
went to kindastone Indian town. We you know, we were there,
We saw wampum, you know, we had they They created
this and crafted this experience for us, and it was
so fundamental to the way that we approached the book.
And you know, I remember just being, you know, just
(23:55):
absorbing all of this, and I remember I wrote the
first lines of the book. We were on the bus
because we're trying to condense all this information. But I
think they're like it was some of the like how'd
I end up writing that like, who who wrote that line? Well,
stop me, I'm just the I'm just the dude. Like
to the rights comics, there's a lot of pow. And
it was this that line of history is complicated, violence
is simple, because that was the first thing that struck
(24:15):
me as we're driving around of how much of all
this history that we're looking at, all this history that
we're reading, and yet it was this one act that
destroyed essentially the people at the time, they had kin
and you know, descendants that had moved on into other locations,
but you know, at that location they ceased to exist
(24:37):
and you know, in their traditional homeland. And then just
being super supportive like Will and the Library Company and
the Q Foundation being super supportive of the work with
this incredible exhibit, you know where we celebrated the native
community just sh I mean like it was packed, you know,
had this incredible opening. We talked about Ghost River, we
talked about the exhibit. There's a documentary that goes with
(24:58):
it that came out to the shop and film.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
It was beautiful and even like the imagery is very
like sad and it fits like the whole story and
I just think it's incredible that somebody was driven or
you know, found a way to get all these people
to work on this, because otherwise that story would just
have gotten lost, like every other story from a lot
of different peoples that don't exist anymore, that we would
have never known for him.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Right, And those stories get buried. And that's I think
that's that's always been like, my goal is to find
those because we have the stories that we know that
have been replicated so many times, it's it's difficult to count.
It's Pocahontas, it's saka Jaweya, you know our modern folks.
It's will a man killer, it's deb Holland, right, and
(25:41):
then so many Native men, you know, so many chiefs. Right.
I was like, you get four women and then like
a thousand chiefs, and it's always like chiefs. It's sitting bull,
it's crazy horse. It's this mythology of the American West.
And it's hard for Native identity when that's what you
have to conform to, right, Like, because I always tell
in talks that I give, I'm just like my people
(26:03):
were corn growers. Like I don't look like my northern relations.
I don't ride horses, and I am not tall and ripped.
My dad used to say, like, we're round and brown,
that's what we are, right, And I was just like,
there's an apt description. Going back to our education roots
(26:29):
is finding those stories that nobody has necessarily heard of.
It's the Code Talkers and expanding on that. It's the
depth of the Code Talkers story, right, Like, there's so
much more incredible nuance in that story that one of
these days I would love to put into a comic book.
You know. I talked with Sonnie Gorman about you know,
her dad and you know the family, and the full
(26:53):
story is so incredible, like the original the original was
it twenty nine? That story is magnificent. And for that
when she tells it, my mind is blown. I'm just
sitting there listening to her tell this incredible story, and
I was like, oh my gosh, we should put this
in a comic at some point. And I was like,
that's the story that's missing, because what we always get
is sort of the other side of the narrative, which
(27:14):
is supporting sort of the American industrial you know, American
military industrial complex, right, which is we show them overseas
everybody who soldier already. I was like, the whole lead
up for that is actually an incredible story, and then
all of the residuals from that, right, like the reason
is to why the you know, Navajo code talkers are
(27:37):
positioned the way that they are because of the battles
in the South Pacific, because of what they did, but
also recognizing that they didn't end the program until the fifties.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Speaking of like what you were talking about the code
talkers and stuff. When you look at the old pictures,
I can't imagine, like they're not old enough. Those kids
were like ten. It just like makes me so sad
to see like little little boys I know in this
like crazy chaos. But yeah, you did a code love
I actually really love that too.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Thank you. That was one of my favorite stories to
write as well, And interestingly enough found out it was
kind of a true story, like and I didn't even
have to be I didn't even know that though when
I first wrote it, right like I first wrote it,
and then we found we found a story like that
when I was talking because Ergon Star edited it and
(28:28):
we found she said she had heard a story we
never I didn't find a writing of it, but essentially
there was another story that was very similar not with
the lost love part, you know, with with sort of
the way that my narrative goes, but essentially it was
a nurse and native guy that was speaking, you know,
in language, and he's you know, yelling and hollering. She's
(28:50):
the only one that can understand him, and goes over
and talks in language and kind of gets into calm down.
It wasn't a code talker like you just did standard
native dude is what we heard, you know, so like
just kind of gets into calm down and gives him
water and then they start talking to each other. Didn't
know that story at all until you know, like after
we had written it kind of put it into the
world and someone was just like, oh, yeah, here's the story.
(29:12):
This idea of the co talker and going to war.
We do that sort of love story setup of Stephen
now in the war is she's seeing her you know,
her betrothed, her love, her boyfriend, and then you know
it's not him under the wrapping. And so that was
kind of like you know a little bit of the heartbreak, right, So,
you know, just narrative pieces to it, but also like
some of it, especially around the telegrams that actually comes
(29:35):
for a little bit from a story from Laguna. From
that idea that I mean, we lived so rurally, and
you know, movies always show like the car making the
long drive up the road, and and there were stories
of that.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Right.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
There was a story that this grandma told us about,
you know, when her husband went to work at Laguna
and this is out in the village of Siama. She said,
headlights at night. She said, we're the most terrib fine
was coming out to see them at night, right, And
she said that was the hardest part because they were
probably bringing a telegram.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Yeah, and you just have to wait and see what
direction the headlights go. I have an uncle who's passed away,
but he lived in Alaska for years of his life
and he would just come across random Navajo people and
just by hearing them speak, you know, and he'd be like,
oh my gosh, they're here, you know, and he'd make friends,
(30:27):
and then we'd get invited to things that they were
doing out here because they're like, we met your uncle
and he's all the way in Alaska, like, you know.
So that type of stuff has to happen, especially back
during that time. I'm sure different tribes sent people to war,
and yeah, and if they heard their own language, imagine
how like satisfying and comforting that would be in such
(30:47):
a crazy chaotic environment. So yeah, I'm sure there's several
stories like that in different ways.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
One of the things that that we talk about in
the book and teach from the book is that there's
both the formal and the informal program. Right, So the
formal program being like the ones that were authorized the Charity,
the chalk Tak, the Navajo, and then the other tribes
where there was an actual recruitment they were brought in
specifically for that. But there were numerous instances of the
informal groups right where it would be two Native dudes,
(31:17):
you know, or four Native three Native dudes that like
were serving in the same company, you know, or they
were serving on the same shit and they all spoke
the same language. We still have in mind to do
sort of like a volume two. Eventually. There were two
other stories that I had put down for that. One
was one that I had heard about two Muscogee guys
and that they got caught one time they were at
(31:39):
mess and they were talking to each other in U
Scogi and CEO overheard them and was like you two
come with us, right, And they were like, oh man,
we just the boarding school and they were like, come on,
we were just we had we didn't get to talk
and now and they were basically just like, you're gonna
(32:01):
be like we're sending you, you know, in this group
on land, and you're gonna stay here on the ship.
And so they talk to each other, so many stories,
so little time.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
You're doing like the mission of like bringing us together,
getting us out there and more importantly given us content
because I don't think people know these things are possible
until they see it.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
That's the part that I just love the most is
just trying to get like, you know, trying to get
just more stuff into the hands for our kids. You know,
it's a you know, now there's shelves. When I started
the bookstore, and it's not it hasn't been that long,
we didn't have that many shelves of things, and now
it takes up like two book We had like probably
four shelves, and now it takes up four bookcases of
(32:46):
native content, and so much of that has happened in
the last eight years that it's just phenomenal. It just
blows my mind. The number of kids. Books that are
coming out by Native Indigenous Centric by four about Native people, mysteries, romances.
You know what else is sci fi? Like, I think
(33:06):
there's stills and what is it? You know, Weodi Old
Bear just put out as many ship as Stars. I
think it's the name of the book Native sci Fi, right,
Like Natives in Space, I was like, just more of it.
Natives underwater and I'm not talking about Avatar, so let's
just be very clear or aquamen. Yeah, different natives. Well,
that's just there was just one Native underwater, so.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Yeah, for sure. And that stuff all is like getting
other things to happen, like Echo, and then all these
other things come of that. So it's really you're really
much like starting the seed. You're the seed person. You
are a seed keeper, I guess.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
I guess, you know, kind of like a little idea seeds.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Yeah, and so you get shows like Echo, which is
like on Hulu and done really well, and then like
even the one with the Predator, you know, right, yeah, yeah, yeah,
that was really good. There's a lot of Native horror
stories and I mean I love it.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
It's great. I think the biggest piece that we've got
coming up is our first ever East Coast in digitpop
X is going to be this November. We're back to
our November time time time slot, so November fourteenth through
the sixteenth at Duke University on the Duke campus. So
that's our that's our big lead out right now. We're
(34:23):
in that sort of like period of like, Okay, now's
the time we got to push out all the info
to get everybody excited about it because it's so funny,
because it's it's one of those things you know that
I've noticed over the years is that a lot of
this stuff has you know, essentially just sort of like regionalized.
And I I won't say that in a bad way,
but it's when you're putting stuff out. When we first
(34:44):
were doing things, it was kind of putting stuff out
so that like you know, like a lot of our
academic colleagues could schedule the time and they could you know,
be there for a conference. And I was like, but
we're not quite like that, and we don't need all
of this lead time because we're very niche. So we're
going to get the audience that is either really curious
or is already dedicated. And so this is what we
(35:05):
found is this sort of sweet spot like right now,
the sort of like two month period where it's just
gonna be NonStop. We'll do it like right when it's
in your consciousness. So we are right at that point,
which is really exciting. We got some great folks coming out.
We're really excited about just honestly being out here in
East Coast community in North Carolina and having the chance
(35:26):
to you know, kind of show folks out here. Have
had a lot of conversations with people about like just
the necessity for having like more of these high profile events,
especially here in this sort of like Upper southeast right
like you know, for for Native folks. That's you know,
that is that is parallel to as we've always said,
(35:46):
that is parallel to sort of pow wow or cultural
specific gatherings that there is also the space for these
top culture secular gatherings that are that are built around
just being you know, being fun and goofy and weird
and all those other you know, Indigenous teams.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Who who can we expect to see there? Who are
we excited to see?
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Got a lot of our great artists, Royboni Juniors coming out.
Gentry of course, part of it, Tom Ferris is gonna
be there. Also we get these really great cross cultural
connections of the folks that were you know, inviting out
to the space to be like, hey, you know you
are from you know, Roy's and Cherokee and tom you know,
kind of in Oklahoma. And then we have some you know,
(36:34):
to folks from you know, Navajo, and then we got
some folks from you know, up north. And it's like
that gives us a chance to also make stronger connections
among our relations, our relatives that are doing this fun
and cool work. You know, that that allows them to
share and experience and laugh and have a fun time together.
(36:58):
So I think that's always really great because then you know,
it's a way that we can talk to our East
Coast relatives and and you know, continue to validate their
experience with colonization and genocide. And that's to the side.
They're also a part of the narrative and and and
the way that we engage with that I think is
really important, especially when we're looking at a way of
(37:19):
trying to foster the spirit even as a method, you know,
or even as a way of healing.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
While everything that has been accomplished is great, Lee is
insistent on one thing we want more.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
A few tabletop games? What more tabletop games? There's a
few role playing games? What more role playing games? I
was like, there's so many spaces where we can tell
and ways that we can tell stories. The big thing
right now is I really want to see like toys.
Stephen Paul Judd has limited edition toys, you know, but
I was like, I'm not getting be able to play
with it though, You're not going to take it in
(37:54):
the mud, right, I was like, I want to have
stuff that's mass produced ethically for us right that we
can you know, stuffies and characters and beanie babies. You know,
I don't like to throw Indigenous in front of everything,
but indigitbabies.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
You know, like, well when it sounds like that, maybe
it just has to happen me.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
It sounds so cute, right, Like you totally get that.
We've been doing some sketch workout for kind of like
calling the res Life kids l y Fe and it's
think of like the was it the homies, so like
archetype characters, but Native I had a whole bunch of them.
Was like fried bread Grandma and like you know, res
(38:36):
Baller and you know, things like that. Right like, and
I was like, that's the kind of stuff that we
want to see ourselves in these spaces and not as
like the small group we want to be in the space.
We want the whole space. At least in this one instance,
we get to take the whole space.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
I remember my mom talking about she used to work
for like employment agencies, Department of Labor funds and stuff
and trying to get people out in this area employed.
And this is probably like in the seventies somewhere she
paid for well, using that money for Native artists to
do cartoons, and it was for Disney. So she traveled
(39:15):
to Beverly Hills, and the federal funds were paying for
these artists because that was their skill, and they were
trying to like let them make money from their skill
instead of trying to you know, assimilate them into another direction.
I and for you know, looking at these skills we
already have and finding a place for it instead of
just you know, trying to make us all programmers or
(39:37):
you know, all these jobs that aren't traditional to us
or like we're not we have to like unnaturally adapt
to them. And it feels like a contradiction to who
we really are. I'm glad it's become like a trade show,
like a place where people can go to be like
I want to work with this person. I'm going to
go there, and like maybe pitching probably happens. There's all
kinds of stuff that happens.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
Yeah, and just these wonderful story connections and collaborations with
folks that just happen organically because you're all in the
same room now, which is the best part about it.
Always my hope in this space is to provide these
you know, opportunities or just you know moments to just
that experience for folks to be together, to share, you know,
(40:18):
and enjoy and laughter. I think that's so key, and
you know, and hope folks, hopefully folks come along. That's
you know, just that we you know, we set the
table and see who wants to come join us for
the meal.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
This episode of Burn Stage, Burn Bridges was written and
produced by myself, Max Williams, and Dylan Fagan. Additional thanks
to the Next Step program special thanks to our guests
doctor Lee Francis. The fourth in Digitpop X will be
held at Duke University on November fifteenth and sixteenth. For
more information on this event check out in digitpopex dot com.
(40:56):
Thank you for listening.
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