September 17, 2025 • 41 mins
A conversation with the lifelong nerd behind the first Indigenous comic bookstore and Comic Con. Explore his work and hear how he’s uniting minds to create what’s next.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey, everyone, before the episode starts, be sure to subscribe
and rate the show. If you're enjoying it, Thanks for listening.
This is burn Stage, Burn Bridges. I'm your host, Nicole Garcia.
I want to call this Indigenered. Is that okay? Because
that's like your name.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Oh it's perfect. Yeah, I go by doctor Indigenered. Okay.
There's people that like to take on the mantra of Indigenered,
which is great. That's why I put the doctor in
front of mine. I'm like, I am doctor indigener Fla.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
This is doctor Lee Francis the fourth.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
There's a longer history to it. But the family name
way back was Atsy and came from Powatei so Guishi
Sobquadi village and then they moved and lived. My aunt
Jesse lived on the corner, so if you're going up
towards Lukuna main village, she used to have her house
like right there where you make the left off of
(00:59):
where sixty six would have been. It's interesting because when
I was teaching, that was one of the things that
I taught my students was to really recognize that, you know,
even in the hierarchy of sort of like marginalized people's
right that they were actually very very lucky to be
able to point to a house that they're great great
(01:19):
great great great grandparents built and lived in continuously, as
opposed to a lot of our other relations, right who
were forcibly removed, who can't point to that space. So
I was like, you guys are incredibly you know, it's
incredibly beautiful and lucky, and please remember how you know
incredible this is that I would always tell them that,
like this is this is truly your family home, like
(01:43):
you know, the DNA is built into the side of
this this house from your family that goes back seven generations,
and recognize that you have you have a privilege and
and you need to be grateful to creation for that. Right.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Yeah, that is so amazing about Pueblo people because they
keep together and their stuff. They don't let people in,
and I think that's kind of good. Can't share everything.
We're kind of known for that, so we lose a
lot of things being Navajo and scattered, you know, and
we kind of have a central area that I'm definitely
connected to. But you all, really you really do have it,
(02:20):
like it's they're legit from that long ago.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Yeah, and I think that's I mean again, that's where
I say, it's such a you know, I wanted my
kids to recognize how not only beautiful, but how lucky, right,
because many of us didn't have that luck. Many of
our folks didn't get that. And I mean obviously we
were you know, we were definitely sort of like domestic, right.
We made apartments, we made the houses, we wanted to
(02:44):
settle in one place. Many of our relatives were much
more nomadic, but but still in all, we still had
that whole land. And I think that that's super special
and super important. And always telling my kids being like,
be aware, this is important, you know, when I was teaching.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
And it's so nice. I mean, people are still replicating
the same design because it is a very appealing design
and it looks very nice, picked a perfect location. Did
it start with the comic bookstore or the comic book
the Native Realities? Like the press?
Speaker 2 (03:16):
It started with the press coming out of twenty fourteen,
twenty twelve. Really, it actually started with a conversation I
had with Arrogant starr Out in Cherokee, Oak Cherokee, North Carolina.
She was either she had just put out super Indian
as a comic or she was right about to put
out Super Indian the first volume, so like she was
like right in that phase, and I think she'd been
doing this web comic and we're still out of line,
(03:38):
just joking around, like, man, wouldn't it be great if
we had this like a comics authority sticker, you know,
like we had a little comics code authority, but like
an Indigenous comics code, you know, kind of like the
old comics code, you know, and just like to put
on stuff. It was like, you know that it would
be certified native fresh right, either with the representation was
correct or was by a Native person, right, like, so
(03:58):
something that instead of having like, you know, some of
this weak you know, historicized powows and feathers and the
whole thing, we had you know, some thing that like,
you know, even if it was non native, they went
and hung out with Native folks. So we just started
joking around about that. We thought that was hilarious. We'll
laugh and laugh and laughing. And the week later she
had drawn up this little code. She just made a
little design for it, and I was like, we should,
(04:20):
why don't we do something with this. Let's put like
a like a book together, and so she knew some
comic folks, and I knew a few comic folks, and
I was running a nonprofit that I took over from
my dad. I took over Wordcraft Circle, and I said, well,
why don't we just publish this thing about like little comics,
like just hate you know, single pages, twelve pages from
all these artists, and we'll just hate it out. We'll
(04:42):
just put comics out, you know, to everybody. And that
was twenty twelve, I want to say, twenty eleven, twenty twelve,
and that was that was like the first that was
the first run at this. And then twenty fourteen, I
graduated and was working at Laguna. We were trying to
get a school started and didn't quite hand out the
way we had hoped for. But I started like at
(05:03):
in my in my spare time, as my side hustle.
I was like, well, let meet you just keep making
some comics. And so we started putting out some comics.
That first run was called Indigenous Narratives Collective, and the
first comic was was I and C's Universe. I actually
have a copy of it right here. Someone just gave
me a copy. So this is what it looked like
it had twelve pages, and we had, you know, several
Native artists that just kind of talked about it was
(05:25):
either a page of their work or talked about be
like why they drew comics or being in comics, et cetera.
The big first one that we did was Tales and
Money co Talkers, and that came out the same year
as the Comic Con. What I love is that people
also pass stuff on to me. So there was an
old comic book, it's a Navajo comic book that they
had commissioned about uranium and the old minds of like
(05:51):
not going into the old minds like and it was
all illustrated. It was a comic book for community. It
came out in the seventies. I just found out, like
this brand new. It's not brand new. She came out
in the forties, but first Alaskans, right, so Alaskan Native
character who had her own comic book three or four
(06:12):
months before Wonder Woman. I mean it was old, sort
of schlocky nineteen forties comic style, but she was totally
like this powerhouse, you know, and and you know, just
rock them, sock them, but for her community, right, So
it was about taking care of her people. Is a
non native illustrator that did it. But like I was, like,
he had to have hung out with us, right, Like
(06:33):
you had to have hung out with folks because like,
like I mean again, it's schlocky and its forties and
so the style is, you know, it's rambunctious, and I mean,
if you ever read any of those old comics, they're great.
They're just they're just you know, the writing is a whot.
But I'm just kind of like to write that early on,
you know, that's something that that I was like, I
just added that knowledge because I went there, right, So
(06:55):
people will pass me some of the stuff, which I
absolutely adore. Like I love getting like this because part
of it is also for me, is trying to create
a bit of a repository in some of these places
and spreading the knowledge of you know, like of native
folks that have done comic book creation work, right or
where native comic characters have you know, maybe not been
(07:17):
drawn by like you know, native folks, but have been
like they like just kind of talking about native characters.
So like anytime people get the chance to tell me
about you know, cool comics or something that came out
like I get this PDF of this thing that came
out in the seventies, right, or you know, talking about
Mutton Man, you know, talking about you know, the Vincent
(07:40):
Craig and Mutton Man. And so that's a lot of
this is one of the things I love about the
work that I do is is also being a bit
of a historian. From twenty fourteen to twenty sixteen, it
was really just kind of like running, you know, running
comics and putting the comic books together, and then just
kind of like, well, why don't we have a trade show,
Like why don't we do our own trade show? Cause
(08:00):
like like this is great, but like I want to
get everybody together because I'm sitting here online people are
going to like this, you know, Indigenous gamers conventions like
in Iceland there's you know, Saw Me Land, you know.
Then up in Territon, I was like, oh, I want
to go, and then like I see everybody that's gonna
be over it, like you know, they're over at Sundance,
and I was like, I want to go, you know,
(08:21):
and then everybody's like, you know, all the comic nerds,
like you know, I start showing up to comic cons
at that point, and I'm like, I'm the guy at Common,
I'm the native rep at comic Con. I was like,
I want more for this. And then like all the
writers in sci fi and fantasy they're going to there,
I want to go there too. I like to say
that it was both, you know, altruistic and selfish simultaneously
for launching comic Con. For a digit of the comic
(08:42):
Con was like, I just wanted to get everybody in
one place so that we can all hang out together.
I mean, little did I know that as the organizer,
I don't get to hang out with anybody because I
have to run around and do everything. But you know,
the thought was pure that I was just like, oh,
I just want us all to be in the same room.
The other things of just being able to showcase native
brilliance and talent, that was the start of all this.
(09:03):
I'd like to take a little credit. I know I
can't take credit for talent. What I can take credit
is giving a platform for talent, and it gave an
opportunity for people to really showcase that and people to
recognize it and then they could take it from there.
I remember early on coming out of that first comic
con was we'd get requests for our vendor list and
our artist ally because there were people in the industry
(09:26):
that were looking for the artists and looking for folks
to be able to work with, and so they were
coming to us because this was that was the only
the only game in talent, right, Like we're the only
ones running something like that at the time.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Lee even supported me by screening Monster Slayer, a short
film I helped produce. You're so nice to show our
film there because our film was like an origin story
but modern with a little twist stop motion animation. I
don't know what we were thinking. Awesome, yeah, yeah, but
I mean again, it was like just a group of
(10:00):
people here that were interested in all kinds of stuff.
But also my interest came from like there's like nothing and.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
It's still I mean, it's still rare, Like I mean,
I think that's what we wanted to showcase. And even
when we had yours, it was like the idea was
that we want to showcase these things because we want
to inspire that group to not only just be able
to have that representation, but the panoply of the kind
of representation that our non native relatives have, right they
(10:31):
have stop motion, they have comic books, they have you know,
deep deep myth the same mythologies, but really stories like
deep enriching stories in multiple mediums, and here we are,
you know, at the time, you know, I think it's
definitely changed within the last almost ten years, but at
the time, you know, when we first started, it's just
like there's it's it's not a lot, you know. I
(10:55):
mean that was kind of at the front edge of
that jump starting phase because so much has happened within
that space is twenty sixteen. So yeah, I mean, I
that's what I appreciate your and I appreciate the continuation,
you know, in those phases of you know, how are
we finding different fun ways to tell stories. When we
(11:26):
opened the shop, it was really about wanting to keep
the party going. So in twenty seventeen we found just
like an open storefront. And at a certain point it
started to get really crowded. In my home office, I
had all these like we had our publications. I think
we had five or six out of that point, some
singles and you know, the thick ones. But then we
(11:46):
had all this stuff from the comic cons so the
flyers and the banners and the art that people you know,
would gift me with and you know, all this other stuff.
And I was like kind of like where is this
going to go? And we also can't run a business
because this is in Silicon Valley. I'm not going to
have everybody just coming to my house, you know, to
work in my back office of like we need a space.
(12:06):
So essentially it really started out it's an office, like
we were really looking at to be like office in
the back, and you know it's kind of like a
like a tasting room right, like like a tasting room
for a brewery, you know, like that kind of concept
was like we just have a little bookstock, you know,
like we just have like two or three shelves up
in the front and then the office would be in
the back and that's where we would do everything. And
(12:28):
somewhere along the way it turned into this full fledged
award winning books comic shop, like and the first native
comic shop in the world. Like I was like, this
is this was interesting about how this happened. You know,
we got nominated for an Eisner Awards. We were on
the list for you know, like an Eisener because they
have a spirit of the con or. It's remember what
(12:48):
exactly what it's called. It's essentially a Comic Shop Award.
We came in second, like three years in a row
for the Albuquerque Best of We you know, we finished
behind after Zombies and Albuquerque. You know, like we're never
gonna take overtake Asters Bobbies, but it's nice to be
on the list. So like we just kept sort of
building from I think we had four bookshelves when we opened.
(13:12):
I'd go back and look at the pictures, like the
the before pictures, the opening day pictures, and then when
we closed, because we did close the shop down just
because I live on the East coast. Now we had
like twelve shelves. We had center shelves, we had the
walls were covered. We had put like this beautiful mural
that like, you know from our Wool of Jonesy by
(13:32):
Jonathan Nelson, one of my buddies painted you know, one
of the panels from that, and I was like, man,
like it was just packed.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
What happened to all the stuff?
Speaker 2 (13:41):
All the stuff is actually in our office here in
North Carolina. We're still online. We're under ATCG Books and Comics,
so we still have all the comics. We still you
know have everything from the space and actually sending a
bunch of comics to some folks. We helped several folks
start bookstores, little pop up shops, so that was one
of our efforts, and we call it shop in a Box,
and so we basically just front a lot of merch
(14:04):
So that was one of the hardest things for us
that we just didn't when you first get started, until
you start making revenue, you're just paying out a pocket.
And not everybody has you know, a credit card on file,
or has done a comic con or has the resources.
So what we do is we just essentially say like, well,
if you want to get this started, just listen, I
got a bunch of stock, So I'm gonna send you
(14:25):
a box full of it, and if you sell it,
send us some money. And if you don't sell us
the books, and you'll basically like you pay us like
you would pay wholesale. Maybe like if in six months
you're not selling anything, send us back to books. We'll
take them. Quiet Quail Books out of South California. We've
had a couple of other conversations with two other folks
that were wanting to get some stuff going, Indian Games
(14:45):
and Comics was one of the ones that we helped
lunch as well out of Oklahoma. We've told anybody like, listen,
if you want to do this, we'll send you a
small stop in a box of like, you know, a
thousand dollars worth of stuff just to get you started,
like if you want to hit a powow you know,
and we'll basically just like it's like your wholesaling, but
you don't have to front the cost on the wholesaleing.
This is the thing about the book industry in the state,
(15:06):
know and sort of the comic industry, well, comics, you
have to front everything, so when you first start, you
can't get a lot of the stuff. But let's changed
slightly because more of the big publishers are coming have
come into the comic industry and so, but they give
you terms that are like if you're going to return it,
they give you less of a discount. Right if you
buy them all outright, then you get a better discount.
(15:27):
And you know, their pricing model works as their pricing model.
But I was like, that can be you know slightly
you know difficult or native folks on the reds that
want to be able to start this that are you know,
wanting to do a bookstore, but they don't have front
side money for that. They've got to keep a job,
you know, And what am I going to do? Like
(15:47):
sell books? And then like now you're saddled with two
thousand dollars worth of books or thousand dollars worth of books?
What do I do with it? And then I have
to return it. I'd be like, just get it and
if it goes, then order more books from us until
and then you can use us as a credit reference,
like and then you can go get signed up with
all these other book distributors and then you don't need
us anymore, like buy our comics.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
It's a very good idea, and I'm glad it's not
like a Mary Kay or an Avon like right right, right,
Like what do they call those like I don't know.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
The pyramid schemes right right? Yeah? Or like you know
those ugly tights right I can't remember, but yeah, no,
we just we're just like let you you do what
you're gonna do, because the whole point is to get
comics to kids, especially in native communities. I don't I
don't care how they get out there, you know, I
mean and if I was like, it's I've already We've
already bought and paid for the books, so not like
(16:42):
a big deal. I was like, merchant is already paid for.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
The next step is combining everything under one roof.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
We're actually going to be finally launching our new websites,
so we brought everything under a new banner. Essentially, all
these little disparate pieces are all sort of coming under
one header called the Indigenous Imagination Workshop. So that's where
the bookshop is, that's the publishing as well as a
lot of new content creation. So we've been working with
(17:12):
a lot of orgs to do what we call story
ecosystem helping to build story ecosystems. So it's essentially creating
something that's tangible, something that's digital, and something that's interactive
or immersive, and so you create a story ecosystem around
these ideas. And so it's just an idea factory where
we come up with stuff or if you've got cool ideas,
(17:34):
we figure out how to get some wheels under it,
being like, all right, so how do we sort of
package that up in multiple ways? Right? So we can
do that and then let's make a little flip book
or a tiny comic out of it. Sort of these
multiple touch points, right, we try to figure out all
these multiple touch points and essentially just have fun, Like
what else can we do?
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Was looking into your dad and he seemed to be incredible.
Was he kind of like the driving force from all
of this amazing stuff that you're starting.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
I would think at least a lot of the seeds
were planned. I think the energy from my mom, you know,
was very much. She was super outgoing, you know, a
lovely person, just a good spirit, and you know, so
I think I get a lot from that from her,
and I think from my dad he planted the seeds
around sort of the nerd side of this, and really
kind of, honestly, we've entered this you know, interesting period
(18:27):
where sort of like nerd a tree is all pop culture, right,
we're surrounded by it. In fact, there's been a little
bit of backlash to it now, right, we're starting to
be just like, maybe there's something other than a superhero
movie that we can watch, you know. Super honest for him,
he just likes science fiction. He likes science fiction, you know, books,
he liked science fiction kind of grown up, he liked
fantasy and and encouraged reading for me, so like reading
(18:51):
early for reading, people are just like, oh, my parents
have never give me a comic book, and my dad,
my dad would like, just like here or by you
like to read, I'll buy you all the comics you want,
you know. So I kind of had that part within,
sort of like the nerdy pop culture side. And then
we were I mean, he was a huge technofile. We
had a TRS eighty when I was growing up, the
original radio shack, personal computers super early on in the house.
(19:14):
So I think it was just like, you know, I
started gaming, you know, when I was four, you know, so,
so I think that kind of stuff, I mean, gaming
was much different back then. It was like a button
and a joystick is calico? Right.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Besides all this other stuff that you do, you're an entrepreneur,
you were a teacher. You also gotten wards for stuff
that you've written, and I love a lot of the
stuff you've done, like that ghost ghost Ripper.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Oh yeah, ghost Ripper, Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
That's amazing. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Ghost Ripper came about because of the Comic Con as well,
and was probably one of my favorite projects to work on.
So it originated out of the Library Company at a
Philadelphia with doctor will Fenton who was there like director
of Innovation. I can't remember what his title was at
the time. It was essentially like they were really trying
(20:04):
to just do some really creative stuff, and the brought
him in around the work that he had done on
what was called the pamphlet Wars. So this whole time
period in seventeen sixty four out of Philadelphia where they
were just like drafting these pamphlets, you know, Patriots versus Quakers,
versus you know, like all of these power plays. And
it was really one of the original moments of when
(20:27):
you know, like the media machine kicked in in America.
So he had done his dissertation work or he had
done a lot of research on this and found the
initial impetus for all this stuff, right, and that initial
impetus was really around what they called it was the
massacre of the Conistoga people, Susqueheana Conastoga, and from these
(20:49):
guys from pax hung this band of murderers and marauders
went and murdered these Conistoga peoples out of what was
originally the original village, which was known as the Indian Town.
There was six of the folks that were killed and
then sort of like finished the job in right after
Christmas seventeen sixty three in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. So this is
(21:14):
the history that he gets into. This is the history
that we talked about in the book. I get this
email and it's one of the funny I love telling
the story because it's like, I just get this email
and you, I think you probably know, being in media,
you just get the emails.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Out of nowhere.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Hi, I have this idea for this book and want
to know if you like like it and if it's
going to be good. That's not how we'll talks, but
that's how it was in my head when I first
saw it. You get those emails and you're just kind
of like, all right, yeah, what's the idea? Love, tell
me more about it, right because I'm just that's my educator,
(21:47):
you know, good natured side. So he tells me the
story of what he's planning, and he says, I'd like
to come out to Comic Con and I'd like to
try and recruit someone to be an illustrator for this.
And I was like, cool, man's open to you. Just
let me know. I'll give you a free pass. That
is great if you can make it, you know, here
you go. And he was like cool. I'm like this,
(22:08):
dude's not going to show I get that all the time, right,
Dud's not showing up, shows up, sends me the email
he's there. Can we meet find some time to talk?
So I was like, yeah, absolutely, So we sit down
and talk and he was just like, I want you
to publish it, and I was like, that's amazing. We'd
love to publish it. I was like, I also like
to throw my hat in the ring as a writer,
since you're looking for folks here because they're right as well.
(22:31):
This is cool. And so as he's going and interviewing
people and finding their styles, especially for the art, he
stumbles across with show Yo Vitre's table. We just finished
putting out six Killer, and she's like, I'd love to
work with Lee again. He's somebody that I trust and no,
and so we get this job. So we start figuring
out how to plot this. But one of the things
that I'd like to point out with Ghost River, not
(22:51):
just the content itself, but really the way in which
they went about the process, because this is really what
we ask of non natives when we're working in communities,
and one of the things that we have to ask
of ourselves as natives working outside of out our own communities,
right is the responsibilities that we have to do it appropriately,
(23:13):
to do it in a good spirit, to listen to
the people, even if they're not there in that space,
their kin, their descendants may be reading something like this.
So he brought us all out to Philadelphia. He brought
this whole group of historians out to Philadelphia Native folks,
connected us up with the native group in Lancaster called
(23:34):
Circle Legacy, connected us up with incredible Native mentors, one
of whom I'm still working with on a project named
Kurtis Zunega. He actually makes an appearance in the book
as the teacher when they're looking at the art. And
we walked the land. We went to Kandastokee Indian town.
We you know, we were there, We saw wampum, you know,
(23:57):
we had they They created this and crafted this experience
for us, and it was so fundamental to the way
that we approached the book. And you know, I remember
just being you know, just absorbing all of this, and
I remember I wrote the first lines of the book.
We were on the bus because we're trying to condense
all this information. But I think they're like it was
some of the like how did I end up writing that?
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Like?
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Who who wrote that line? Well? Stop me, I'm just
the I'm just the dude. Like to the Wrights comics,
there's a lot of pow. And it was this that
line of history is complicated, violence is simple, because that
was the first thing that struck me as we're driving
around of how much of all this history that we're
looking at, all this history that we're reading, and yet
it was this one act that destroyed essentially the people
(24:40):
at the time, they had kin and you know descendants
that had moved on into other locations, but you know,
at that location they ceased to exist and you know,
in their traditional homeland. And then just being super supportive
like Will and the Library Company and the Q Foundation
being super supportive of the work with this incredible exhibit,
you know where we celebrated the native community just sh
(25:03):
I mean like it was packed, you know, had this
incredible opening. We talked about Ghost River, we talked about
the exhibit. There's a documentary that goes with it that
came out to the shop and filmed us.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
It was beautiful and even like the imagery is very
like sad and it fits like the whole story. And
I just think it's incredible that somebody was driven or
you know, found a way to get all these people
to work on this, because otherwise that story would just
have gotten lost, like every other story from a lot
of different people that don't exist anymore, that we would
have never known for him.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Right, And those stories get buried, and that's I think
that's that's always been like my goal is to find
those because we have the stories that we know that
have been replicated so many times. It's it's difficult to count.
It's Pocahontas, it's saka Jaweya, you know our modern folks.
It's will a man killer, it's deb Holland, right, and
(25:54):
then so many native men, you know, so many chiefs.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Right.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
I was like, you get four women and then like
a thousand chiefs, and it's always like chiefs. It's sitting bull,
it's crazy horse. It's this mythology of the and West,
and it's hard for Native identity when that's what you
have to conform to, right, Like, because I always tell
in talks that I give I'm just like my people
were corn growers, Like I don't look like my northern relations.
(26:22):
I don't ride horses, and I am not tall and ripped.
My dad used to say, like, we're round and brown's
that's what we are, right, And I was just like,
there's an apt description. Going back to our education roots
(26:43):
is finding those stories that nobody has necessarily heard of.
It's the Code Talkers and expanding on that. It's the
depth of the Code Talkers story, right, Like, there's so
much more incredible, nuanced in that story that one of
these days I would love to put into a comic book.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
You know.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
I talked with Znnie Gorman about you know, her dad
and you know the family, and the full story is
so incredible, like the original the original was it twenty nine?
That story is magnificent And for that when she tells it,
my mind is blown. I'm just sitting there listening to
her tell this incredible story and I was like, oh
(27:20):
my gosh, we should put this in a comic at
some point. And I was like, that's the story that's missing,
because what we always get is sort of the other
side of the narrative, which is supporting sort of the
American industrial you know American military industrial complex, right, which
is we show them overseas everybody in Soldier already. I
was like, the whole lead up for that is actually
an incredible story. And then all of the residuals from that, right,
(27:44):
Like the reason is to why the you know, Navajo
code talkers our positioned the way that they are because
the battles in the South Pacific because of what they did.
But also recognizing that they didn't end the program until
the fifties.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Speaking of like what you were talking about the code
talkers and stuff. When you look at the old pictures,
I can't imagine, like they're not old enough. Those kids
were like ten. It just like makes me so sad
to see like little little boys I know in this
like crazy chaos. But yeah, you did a code love
I actually really love that too.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Thank you. That was one of my favorite stories to
write as well. And interestingly enough found out it was
kind of a true story like it to be. I
didn't even know that though when I first wrote it, right,
like I first wrote it, and then we found we
found a story like that when I was talking because
Ergon Star edited it and we found she said she
(28:43):
had heard a story. We never I didn't find a
writing of it, but essentially there was another story that
was very similar, not with the lost love part, you know,
with with sort of the way that my narrative goes,
but essentially it was a nurse and native guy that
was speaking, you know, in language and he's you know,
yelling and hollering. She's the only one that can understand him,
(29:04):
and goes over and talks in language and kind of
gets into calm down. It wasn't a code talker like
you just a standard native dude, is what we heard,
you know, so like just kind of gets into calm
down and gives him water and then they start talking
to each other. Didn't know that story at all until
you know, like after we had written it, kind of
put it into the world and someone was just like, oh, yeah,
here's the story. This idea of the co talker and
(29:27):
going to war. We do that sort of love story
setup of Stephen now in the war is she's seeing
her you know, her betrothed, her love her boyfriend, and
then you know it's not him under the wrapping, and
so that was kind of like you know a little
bit of the heartbreak, right, so you know, just narrative
pieces to it, but it also like some of it,
especially around the telegrams that actually comes for a little
(29:48):
bit from a story from Laguna, from that idea that
I mean, we lived so rurally, and you know, movies
always show like the car making the long drive up
the road, and and there were stories of that.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
Right.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
There was a story that this grandma told us about,
you know, when her husband went to or at Laguna
and this is out in the village of Siama. She said,
headlights at night, she said, we're the most terrifying was
coming out to Siama at night, right, And she said
that was the hardest part because they were probably bringing
a telegram.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Yeah, and you just have to wait and see what
direction the headlights go. I have an uncle who's passed away,
but he lived in Alaska for years of his life
and he would just come across random Navajo people and
just by hearing them speak, you know, and he'd be like,
oh my gosh, they're here, you know, and he'd make friends,
(30:40):
and then we'd get invited to things that they were
doing out here because they're like, we met your uncle
and he's all the way in Alaska, like, you know,
So that type of stuff has to happen, especially back
during that time. I'm sure different tribes sent people to war,
and yeah, and if they heard their own language, imagine
how like satisfying and comforting that would be in such
(31:01):
a crazy chaotic environment. So yeah, I'm sure there's several
stories like that in different ways.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
One of the things that that we talked about in
the book and teach from the book is that there's
both the formal and the informal programs. Right, So the
formal program being like the ones that were authorized the
Charity of the Chalk taught the Navajo and then the
other tribes where there was an actual recruitment, they were
brought in specifically for that. But there were numerous instances
of the informal groups right where it would be two
(31:29):
Native dudes, you know, or four Native three Native dudes
that like were serving in the same company, you know,
or they were serbrating on the same shit and they
all spoke the same language. We still have in mind
to do sort of like a volume two. Eventually, there
were two other stories that I had put down for that.
One was one that I had heard about two Muscogee
(31:49):
guys and that they got caught one time they were
at mess and they were talking to each other in
Muscogee and CEO overheard them and was like, you two
come with us, right, And they were like, oh man,
we just the boarding school. They were like, come on,
we were just we had we didn't get to talk
(32:11):
and now and they were basically just like you're gonna
be We're like, we're sending you, you know, in this
group on land, and you're gonna stay here on the ship.
And so they talk to each other, so many stories,
so little time.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
You're doing like the mission of like bringing us together,
getting us out there and more importantly given us contents,
because I don't think people know these things are possible
until they see it.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
That's the part that I just love the most, is
just trying to get like, you know, trying to get
just more stuff into the hands for our kids. You know,
it's all you know. Now there's shelves. When I started
the bookstore, and it's not it hasn't been that long.
We didn't have that many shelves of things, and now
it takes up like two book We had like probably
four shelves, and now it takes up four bookcases of
(32:59):
native content and so much of that has happened in
the last eight years that it's just phenomenal. It just
blows me mind the number of kids books that are
coming out by native indigenous centric by for and about
Native people, mysteries, romances. You know what else is sci fi?
Like I think there's stills and what is it? You know,
(33:22):
Weody Old Bear just put out as many ships as stars.
I think it's the name of the book Native sci Fi, right,
like Natives in space, like just more of it. Natives
underwater and I'm not talking about Avatar, so let's just
be very clear or aquamen. Yeah, different natives. Well that's
just there was just one native underwater.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
So yeah, for sure. And that stuff all is like
getting other things to happen, like Echo, and then all
these other things come of that. So it's really you're
really much like starting the seed. You're the seed person.
You are a seed keeper, I guess, I.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Guess, you know, kind of like a little idea seeds.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
Yeah, and so you get shows like Echo, which is
like on Hulu and done really well, and then like
even the one with the product or you know right, yeah, yeah,
that was really good. There's a lot of Native horror
stories and I mean, I love it.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
It's yeah great. I think the biggest piece that we've
got coming up is our first ever East Coast in
digitpop X is going to be this November. We're back
to our November time time time slot, so November fourteenth
through the sixteenth at Duke University on the Duke campus.
So that's our that's our big lead out right now.
(34:36):
We're in that sort of like period of like, Okay,
now's the time we got to push out all.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
The info to get everybody excited about it because it's
so funny, because it's It's one of those things you
know that I've noticed over the years is that a
lot of this stuff has you know, essentially just sort
of like regionalized.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
And I I won't say that in a bad way,
but it's when you're putting stuff out. When we first
were doing things, it was kind of putting stuff out
so that like you know, like a lot of our
academic colleagues could schedule the time and they could you know,
be there for a conf And I was like, but
we're not quite like that, and we don't need all
of this lead time because we're very niche. So we're
gonna get the audience that is either really curious or
(35:15):
is already dedicated. And so this is what we found
is this sort of sweet spot like right now, the
sort of like two month period where it's just gonna
be NonStop. We'll do it like right when it's in
your consciousness. So we are right at that point, which
is really exciting. We got some great folks coming out.
We're really excited about just honestly being out here in
East Coast community in North Carolina and having the chance
(35:39):
to you know, kind of show folks out here have
had a lot of conversations with people about like just
the necessity for having like more of these high profile events,
especially here in this sort of like upper southeast right
like you know, for for Native folks. That's you know,
that is that is parallel to as we've always said,
(36:00):
that is parallel to sort of pow wow or cultural
specific gatherings, that there's also the space for these top
culture secular gatherings right that are that are built around
just being you know, being fun and goofy and weird
and all those other you know, Indigenous teams.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Who who can we expect to see there? Who are
we excited to see.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Got a lot of our great artists, Rayboni juniors coming out,
Christ Gentry. Of course part of it. Tom Ferris is
gonna be there. Also, we get these really great cross
cultural connections of the folks that were you know, inviting
out to the space to be like, hey, you know
you're from you know, Roy's and Cherokee and Tom you know,
kind of in Oklahoma. And then we have some you know,
(36:48):
folks from you know, Navajo, and then we got some
folks from you know, up north. And it's like that
gives us a chance to also make stronger connections among
our relations, our relatives that are doing this fun and
cool work. You know that that allows them to share
(37:08):
and experience and laugh and have a fun time together.
So I think that's always really great because then you know,
it's a way that we can talk to our East
Coast relatives and you know, continue to validate their experience
with colonization and genocide. And that's to the side. They're
also a part of the narrative, and the way that
we engage with that I think is really important, especially
(37:31):
when we're looking at a way of trying to foster
the spirit even as a method, you know, or even
as a way of healing.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
While everything that has been accomplished is great, Lee is
insistent on one thing. We want more.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
A few tabletop games. What more tabletop games? There's a
few role playing games? What more role playing games. I
was like, there's so many spaces where we can and
ways that we can tell stories. The big thing right
now is that I really want to see like toys.
Stephen Paul Judd has limited edition toys, you know, but
I was like, I'm not getting be able to play.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
With it though, I'm not going to take it in
the mud, right.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
I was like, I want to have stuff that's mass
produced ethically for us right that we can, you know,
stuffies and characters and beanie babies. You know. I don't
like to throw indigenous in front of everything, but indigitbabies, you.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
Know, Like, well, when it sounds like that, maybe it
just has to happen me.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
It sounds so cute, right, Like you totally get that.
We've been doing some sketch workout for kind of like
calling the res Life Kids l y Fe and it's
think of like the was it the Homies, so like
archetype characters, but Native I had a whole bunch of
them was like fried bread Grandma, and like you know,
(38:49):
res Baller and you know things like that, right like,
and I was like, that's the kind of stuff that
we want to see ourselves in these spaces and not
as like the small group we want to be in
the space. We want the whole space. At least in
this one instance, we get to take the whole space.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
I remember my mom talking about she used to work
for like employment agencies, Department of Labor funds and stuff
and trying to get people out in this area employed.
And this is probably like in the seventies somewhere she
paid for well, using that money for Native artists to
do cartoons and it was for Disney. So she traveled
(39:28):
to Beverly Hills, and the federal funds were paying for
these artists because that was their skill, and they were
trying to like let them make money from their skill
instead of trying to you know, assimilate them into another direction.
I and for you know, looking at these skills we
already have and finding a place for it instead of
just you know, trying to make us all programmers or
(39:50):
you know, all these jobs that aren't traditional to us.
Or like we're not we have to like unnaturally adapt
to them, and it feels like a contradiction to who
we really are. I'm glad it's become like a trade show,
like a place where people can go to be like
I want to work with this person. I'm going to
go there, and like maybe pitching probably happens. There's all
kinds of stuff that happens.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Yeah, and just these wonderful story connections and collaborations with
folks that just happen organically because you're all in the
same room now, which is the best part about it.
Always my hope in this space is to provide these
you know, opportunities or just you know moments to just
that experience for folks to be together, to share, you know,
(40:31):
and enjoy and laughter. I think that's so key, and
you know, and hope folks, hopefully folks come along. That's
you know, just that we you know, we set the
table and see who wants to come join us from
the meal.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
This episode of Burn Stage, Burn Bridges was written and
produced by myself, Max Williams, and Dylan Fagan. Additional thanks
to the NEXTEP Program special thanks to our guests, Doctor
Lee Francis the fourth in digitpop X will be held
at Duke University on November fifteenth and sixteenth. For more
information on this event, check out in digitpopx dot com.
(41:09):
Thank you for listening.
Hey, everyone, before the episode starts, be sure to subscribe
and rate the show. If you're enjoying it, Thanks for listening.
This is burn Stage, Burn Bridges. I'm your host, Nicole Garcia.
I want to call this Indigenered. Is that okay? Because
that's like your name.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Oh it's perfect. Yeah, I go by doctor Indigenered. Okay.
There's people that like to take on the mantra of Indigenered,
which is great. That's why I put the doctor in
front of mine. I'm like, I am doctor indigener Fla.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
This is doctor Lee Francis the fourth.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
There's a longer history to it. But the family name
way back was Atsy and came from Powatei so Guishi
Sobquadi village and then they moved and lived. My aunt
Jesse lived on the corner, so if you're going up
towards Lukuna main village, she used to have her house
like right there where you make the left off of
(00:59):
where sixty six would have been. It's interesting because when
I was teaching, that was one of the things that
I taught my students was to really recognize that, you know,
even in the hierarchy of sort of like marginalized people's
right that they were actually very very lucky to be
able to point to a house that they're great great
(01:19):
great great great grandparents built and lived in continuously, as
opposed to a lot of our other relations, right who
were forcibly removed, who can't point to that space. So
I was like, you guys are incredibly you know, it's
incredibly beautiful and lucky, and please remember how you know
incredible this is that I would always tell them that,
like this is this is truly your family home, like
(01:43):
you know, the DNA is built into the side of
this this house from your family that goes back seven generations,
and recognize that you have you have a privilege and
and you need to be grateful to creation for that. Right.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Yeah, that is so amazing about Pueblo people because they
keep together and their stuff. They don't let people in,
and I think that's kind of good. Can't share everything.
We're kind of known for that, so we lose a
lot of things being Navajo and scattered, you know, and
we kind of have a central area that I'm definitely
connected to. But you all, really you really do have it,
(02:20):
like it's they're legit from that long ago.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Yeah, and I think that's I mean again, that's where
I say, it's such a you know, I wanted my
kids to recognize how not only beautiful, but how lucky, right,
because many of us didn't have that luck. Many of
our folks didn't get that. And I mean obviously we
were you know, we were definitely sort of like domestic, right.
We made apartments, we made the houses, we wanted to
(02:44):
settle in one place. Many of our relatives were much
more nomadic, but but still in all, we still had
that whole land. And I think that that's super special
and super important. And always telling my kids being like,
be aware, this is important, you know, when I was teaching.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
And it's so nice. I mean, people are still replicating
the same design because it is a very appealing design
and it looks very nice, picked a perfect location. Did
it start with the comic bookstore or the comic book
the Native Realities? Like the press?
Speaker 2 (03:16):
It started with the press coming out of twenty fourteen,
twenty twelve. Really, it actually started with a conversation I
had with Arrogant starr Out in Cherokee, Oak Cherokee, North Carolina.
She was either she had just put out super Indian
as a comic or she was right about to put
out Super Indian the first volume, so like she was
like right in that phase, and I think she'd been
doing this web comic and we're still out of line,
(03:38):
just joking around, like, man, wouldn't it be great if
we had this like a comics authority sticker, you know,
like we had a little comics code authority, but like
an Indigenous comics code, you know, kind of like the
old comics code, you know, and just like to put
on stuff. It was like, you know that it would
be certified native fresh right, either with the representation was
correct or was by a Native person, right, like, so
(03:58):
something that instead of having like, you know, some of
this weak you know, historicized powows and feathers and the
whole thing, we had you know, some thing that like,
you know, even if it was non native, they went
and hung out with Native folks. So we just started
joking around about that. We thought that was hilarious. We'll
laugh and laugh and laughing. And the week later she
had drawn up this little code. She just made a
little design for it, and I was like, we should,
(04:20):
why don't we do something with this. Let's put like
a like a book together, and so she knew some
comic folks, and I knew a few comic folks, and
I was running a nonprofit that I took over from
my dad. I took over Wordcraft Circle, and I said, well,
why don't we just publish this thing about like little comics,
like just hate you know, single pages, twelve pages from
all these artists, and we'll just hate it out. We'll
(04:42):
just put comics out, you know, to everybody. And that
was twenty twelve, I want to say, twenty eleven, twenty twelve,
and that was that was like the first that was
the first run at this. And then twenty fourteen, I
graduated and was working at Laguna. We were trying to
get a school started and didn't quite hand out the
way we had hoped for. But I started like at
(05:03):
in my in my spare time, as my side hustle.
I was like, well, let meet you just keep making
some comics. And so we started putting out some comics.
That first run was called Indigenous Narratives Collective, and the
first comic was was I and C's Universe. I actually
have a copy of it right here. Someone just gave
me a copy. So this is what it looked like
it had twelve pages, and we had, you know, several
Native artists that just kind of talked about it was
(05:25):
either a page of their work or talked about be
like why they drew comics or being in comics, et cetera.
The big first one that we did was Tales and
Money co Talkers, and that came out the same year
as the Comic Con. What I love is that people
also pass stuff on to me. So there was an
old comic book, it's a Navajo comic book that they
had commissioned about uranium and the old minds of like
(05:51):
not going into the old minds like and it was
all illustrated. It was a comic book for community. It
came out in the seventies. I just found out, like
this brand new. It's not brand new. She came out
in the forties, but first Alaskans, right, so Alaskan Native
character who had her own comic book three or four
(06:12):
months before Wonder Woman. I mean it was old, sort
of schlocky nineteen forties comic style, but she was totally
like this powerhouse, you know, and and you know, just
rock them, sock them, but for her community, right, So
it was about taking care of her people. Is a
non native illustrator that did it. But like I was, like,
he had to have hung out with us, right, Like
(06:33):
you had to have hung out with folks because like,
like I mean again, it's schlocky and its forties and
so the style is, you know, it's rambunctious, and I mean,
if you ever read any of those old comics, they're great.
They're just they're just you know, the writing is a whot.
But I'm just kind of like to write that early on,
you know, that's something that that I was like, I
just added that knowledge because I went there, right, So
(06:55):
people will pass me some of the stuff, which I
absolutely adore. Like I love getting like this because part
of it is also for me, is trying to create
a bit of a repository in some of these places
and spreading the knowledge of you know, like of native
folks that have done comic book creation work, right or
where native comic characters have you know, maybe not been
(07:17):
drawn by like you know, native folks, but have been
like they like just kind of talking about native characters.
So like anytime people get the chance to tell me
about you know, cool comics or something that came out
like I get this PDF of this thing that came
out in the seventies, right, or you know, talking about
Mutton Man, you know, talking about you know, the Vincent
(07:40):
Craig and Mutton Man. And so that's a lot of
this is one of the things I love about the
work that I do is is also being a bit
of a historian. From twenty fourteen to twenty sixteen, it
was really just kind of like running, you know, running
comics and putting the comic books together, and then just
kind of like, well, why don't we have a trade show,
Like why don't we do our own trade show? Cause
(08:00):
like like this is great, but like I want to
get everybody together because I'm sitting here online people are
going to like this, you know, Indigenous gamers conventions like
in Iceland there's you know, Saw Me Land, you know.
Then up in Territon, I was like, oh, I want
to go, and then like I see everybody that's gonna
be over it, like you know, they're over at Sundance,
and I was like, I want to go, you know,
(08:21):
and then everybody's like, you know, all the comic nerds,
like you know, I start showing up to comic cons
at that point, and I'm like, I'm the guy at Common,
I'm the native rep at comic Con. I was like,
I want more for this. And then like all the
writers in sci fi and fantasy they're going to there,
I want to go there too. I like to say
that it was both, you know, altruistic and selfish simultaneously
for launching comic Con. For a digit of the comic
(08:42):
Con was like, I just wanted to get everybody in
one place so that we can all hang out together.
I mean, little did I know that as the organizer,
I don't get to hang out with anybody because I
have to run around and do everything. But you know,
the thought was pure that I was just like, oh,
I just want us all to be in the same room.
The other things of just being able to showcase native
brilliance and talent, that was the start of all this.
(09:03):
I'd like to take a little credit. I know I
can't take credit for talent. What I can take credit
is giving a platform for talent, and it gave an
opportunity for people to really showcase that and people to
recognize it and then they could take it from there.
I remember early on coming out of that first comic
con was we'd get requests for our vendor list and
our artist ally because there were people in the industry
(09:26):
that were looking for the artists and looking for folks
to be able to work with, and so they were
coming to us because this was that was the only
the only game in talent, right, Like we're the only
ones running something like that at the time.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Lee even supported me by screening Monster Slayer, a short
film I helped produce. You're so nice to show our
film there because our film was like an origin story
but modern with a little twist stop motion animation. I
don't know what we were thinking. Awesome, yeah, yeah, but
I mean again, it was like just a group of
(10:00):
people here that were interested in all kinds of stuff.
But also my interest came from like there's like nothing and.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
It's still I mean, it's still rare, Like I mean,
I think that's what we wanted to showcase. And even
when we had yours, it was like the idea was
that we want to showcase these things because we want
to inspire that group to not only just be able
to have that representation, but the panoply of the kind
of representation that our non native relatives have, right they
(10:31):
have stop motion, they have comic books, they have you know,
deep deep myth the same mythologies, but really stories like
deep enriching stories in multiple mediums, and here we are,
you know, at the time, you know, I think it's
definitely changed within the last almost ten years, but at
the time, you know, when we first started, it's just
like there's it's it's not a lot, you know. I
(10:55):
mean that was kind of at the front edge of
that jump starting phase because so much has happened within
that space is twenty sixteen. So yeah, I mean, I
that's what I appreciate your and I appreciate the continuation,
you know, in those phases of you know, how are
we finding different fun ways to tell stories. When we
(11:26):
opened the shop, it was really about wanting to keep
the party going. So in twenty seventeen we found just
like an open storefront. And at a certain point it
started to get really crowded. In my home office, I
had all these like we had our publications. I think
we had five or six out of that point, some
singles and you know, the thick ones. But then we
(11:46):
had all this stuff from the comic cons so the
flyers and the banners and the art that people you know,
would gift me with and you know, all this other stuff.
And I was like kind of like where is this
going to go? And we also can't run a business
because this is in Silicon Valley. I'm not going to
have everybody just coming to my house, you know, to
work in my back office of like we need a space.
(12:06):
So essentially it really started out it's an office, like
we were really looking at to be like office in
the back, and you know it's kind of like a
like a tasting room right, like like a tasting room
for a brewery, you know, like that kind of concept
was like we just have a little bookstock, you know,
like we just have like two or three shelves up
in the front and then the office would be in
the back and that's where we would do everything. And
(12:28):
somewhere along the way it turned into this full fledged
award winning books comic shop, like and the first native
comic shop in the world. Like I was like, this
is this was interesting about how this happened. You know,
we got nominated for an Eisner Awards. We were on
the list for you know, like an Eisener because they
have a spirit of the con or. It's remember what
(12:48):
exactly what it's called. It's essentially a Comic Shop Award.
We came in second, like three years in a row
for the Albuquerque Best of We you know, we finished
behind after Zombies and Albuquerque. You know, like we're never
gonna take overtake Asters Bobbies, but it's nice to be
on the list. So like we just kept sort of
building from I think we had four bookshelves when we opened.
(13:12):
I'd go back and look at the pictures, like the
the before pictures, the opening day pictures, and then when
we closed, because we did close the shop down just
because I live on the East coast. Now we had
like twelve shelves. We had center shelves, we had the
walls were covered. We had put like this beautiful mural
that like, you know from our Wool of Jonesy by
(13:32):
Jonathan Nelson, one of my buddies painted you know, one
of the panels from that, and I was like, man,
like it was just packed.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
What happened to all the stuff?
Speaker 2 (13:41):
All the stuff is actually in our office here in
North Carolina. We're still online. We're under ATCG Books and Comics,
so we still have all the comics. We still you
know have everything from the space and actually sending a
bunch of comics to some folks. We helped several folks
start bookstores, little pop up shops, so that was one
of our efforts, and we call it shop in a Box,
and so we basically just front a lot of merch
(14:04):
So that was one of the hardest things for us
that we just didn't when you first get started, until
you start making revenue, you're just paying out a pocket.
And not everybody has you know, a credit card on file,
or has done a comic con or has the resources.
So what we do is we just essentially say like, well,
if you want to get this started, just listen, I
got a bunch of stock, So I'm gonna send you
(14:25):
a box full of it, and if you sell it,
send us some money. And if you don't sell us
the books, and you'll basically like you pay us like
you would pay wholesale. Maybe like if in six months
you're not selling anything, send us back to books. We'll
take them. Quiet Quail Books out of South California. We've
had a couple of other conversations with two other folks
that were wanting to get some stuff going, Indian Games
(14:45):
and Comics was one of the ones that we helped
lunch as well out of Oklahoma. We've told anybody like, listen,
if you want to do this, we'll send you a
small stop in a box of like, you know, a
thousand dollars worth of stuff just to get you started,
like if you want to hit a powow you know,
and we'll basically just like it's like your wholesaling, but
you don't have to front the cost on the wholesaleing.
This is the thing about the book industry in the state,
(15:06):
know and sort of the comic industry, well, comics, you
have to front everything, so when you first start, you
can't get a lot of the stuff. But let's changed
slightly because more of the big publishers are coming have
come into the comic industry and so, but they give
you terms that are like if you're going to return it,
they give you less of a discount. Right if you
buy them all outright, then you get a better discount.
(15:27):
And you know, their pricing model works as their pricing model.
But I was like, that can be you know slightly
you know difficult or native folks on the reds that
want to be able to start this that are you know,
wanting to do a bookstore, but they don't have front
side money for that. They've got to keep a job,
you know, And what am I going to do? Like
(15:47):
sell books? And then like now you're saddled with two
thousand dollars worth of books or thousand dollars worth of books?
What do I do with it? And then I have
to return it. I'd be like, just get it and
if it goes, then order more books from us until
and then you can use us as a credit reference,
like and then you can go get signed up with
all these other book distributors and then you don't need
us anymore, like buy our comics.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
It's a very good idea, and I'm glad it's not
like a Mary Kay or an Avon like right right, right,
Like what do they call those like I don't know.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
The pyramid schemes right right? Yeah? Or like you know
those ugly tights right I can't remember, but yeah, no,
we just we're just like let you you do what
you're gonna do, because the whole point is to get
comics to kids, especially in native communities. I don't I
don't care how they get out there, you know, I
mean and if I was like, it's I've already We've
already bought and paid for the books, so not like
(16:42):
a big deal. I was like, merchant is already paid for.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
The next step is combining everything under one roof.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
We're actually going to be finally launching our new websites,
so we brought everything under a new banner. Essentially, all
these little disparate pieces are all sort of coming under
one header called the Indigenous Imagination Workshop. So that's where
the bookshop is, that's the publishing as well as a
lot of new content creation. So we've been working with
(17:12):
a lot of orgs to do what we call story
ecosystem helping to build story ecosystems. So it's essentially creating
something that's tangible, something that's digital, and something that's interactive
or immersive, and so you create a story ecosystem around
these ideas. And so it's just an idea factory where
we come up with stuff or if you've got cool ideas,
(17:34):
we figure out how to get some wheels under it,
being like, all right, so how do we sort of
package that up in multiple ways? Right? So we can
do that and then let's make a little flip book
or a tiny comic out of it. Sort of these
multiple touch points, right, we try to figure out all
these multiple touch points and essentially just have fun, Like
what else can we do?
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Was looking into your dad and he seemed to be incredible.
Was he kind of like the driving force from all
of this amazing stuff that you're starting.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
I would think at least a lot of the seeds
were planned. I think the energy from my mom, you know,
was very much. She was super outgoing, you know, a
lovely person, just a good spirit, and you know, so
I think I get a lot from that from her,
and I think from my dad he planted the seeds
around sort of the nerd side of this, and really
kind of, honestly, we've entered this you know, interesting period
(18:27):
where sort of like nerd a tree is all pop culture, right,
we're surrounded by it. In fact, there's been a little
bit of backlash to it now, right, we're starting to
be just like, maybe there's something other than a superhero
movie that we can watch, you know. Super honest for him,
he just likes science fiction. He likes science fiction, you know, books,
he liked science fiction kind of grown up, he liked
fantasy and and encouraged reading for me, so like reading
(18:51):
early for reading, people are just like, oh, my parents
have never give me a comic book, and my dad,
my dad would like, just like here or by you
like to read, I'll buy you all the comics you want,
you know. So I kind of had that part within,
sort of like the nerdy pop culture side. And then
we were I mean, he was a huge technofile. We
had a TRS eighty when I was growing up, the
original radio shack, personal computers super early on in the house.
(19:14):
So I think it was just like, you know, I
started gaming, you know, when I was four, you know, so,
so I think that kind of stuff, I mean, gaming
was much different back then. It was like a button
and a joystick is calico? Right.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Besides all this other stuff that you do, you're an entrepreneur,
you were a teacher. You also gotten wards for stuff
that you've written, and I love a lot of the
stuff you've done, like that ghost ghost Ripper.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Oh yeah, ghost Ripper, Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
That's amazing. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Ghost Ripper came about because of the Comic Con as well,
and was probably one of my favorite projects to work on.
So it originated out of the Library Company at a
Philadelphia with doctor will Fenton who was there like director
of Innovation. I can't remember what his title was at
the time. It was essentially like they were really trying
(20:04):
to just do some really creative stuff, and the brought
him in around the work that he had done on
what was called the pamphlet Wars. So this whole time
period in seventeen sixty four out of Philadelphia where they
were just like drafting these pamphlets, you know, Patriots versus Quakers,
versus you know, like all of these power plays. And
it was really one of the original moments of when
(20:27):
you know, like the media machine kicked in in America.
So he had done his dissertation work or he had
done a lot of research on this and found the
initial impetus for all this stuff, right, and that initial
impetus was really around what they called it was the
massacre of the Conistoga people, Susqueheana Conastoga, and from these
(20:49):
guys from pax hung this band of murderers and marauders
went and murdered these Conistoga peoples out of what was
originally the original village, which was known as the Indian Town.
There was six of the folks that were killed and
then sort of like finished the job in right after
Christmas seventeen sixty three in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. So this is
(21:14):
the history that he gets into. This is the history
that we talked about in the book. I get this
email and it's one of the funny I love telling
the story because it's like, I just get this email
and you, I think you probably know, being in media,
you just get the emails.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Out of nowhere.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Hi, I have this idea for this book and want
to know if you like like it and if it's
going to be good. That's not how we'll talks, but
that's how it was in my head when I first
saw it. You get those emails and you're just kind
of like, all right, yeah, what's the idea? Love, tell
me more about it, right because I'm just that's my educator,
(21:47):
you know, good natured side. So he tells me the
story of what he's planning, and he says, I'd like
to come out to Comic Con and I'd like to
try and recruit someone to be an illustrator for this.
And I was like, cool, man's open to you. Just
let me know. I'll give you a free pass. That
is great if you can make it, you know, here
you go. And he was like cool. I'm like this,
(22:08):
dude's not going to show I get that all the time, right,
Dud's not showing up, shows up, sends me the email
he's there. Can we meet find some time to talk?
So I was like, yeah, absolutely, So we sit down
and talk and he was just like, I want you
to publish it, and I was like, that's amazing. We'd
love to publish it. I was like, I also like
to throw my hat in the ring as a writer,
since you're looking for folks here because they're right as well.
(22:31):
This is cool. And so as he's going and interviewing
people and finding their styles, especially for the art, he
stumbles across with show Yo Vitre's table. We just finished
putting out six Killer, and she's like, I'd love to
work with Lee again. He's somebody that I trust and no,
and so we get this job. So we start figuring
out how to plot this. But one of the things
that I'd like to point out with Ghost River, not
(22:51):
just the content itself, but really the way in which
they went about the process, because this is really what
we ask of non natives when we're working in communities,
and one of the things that we have to ask
of ourselves as natives working outside of out our own communities,
right is the responsibilities that we have to do it appropriately,
(23:13):
to do it in a good spirit, to listen to
the people, even if they're not there in that space,
their kin, their descendants may be reading something like this.
So he brought us all out to Philadelphia. He brought
this whole group of historians out to Philadelphia Native folks,
connected us up with the native group in Lancaster called
(23:34):
Circle Legacy, connected us up with incredible Native mentors, one
of whom I'm still working with on a project named
Kurtis Zunega. He actually makes an appearance in the book
as the teacher when they're looking at the art. And
we walked the land. We went to Kandastokee Indian town.
We you know, we were there, We saw wampum, you know,
(23:57):
we had they They created this and crafted this experience
for us, and it was so fundamental to the way
that we approached the book. And you know, I remember
just being you know, just absorbing all of this, and
I remember I wrote the first lines of the book.
We were on the bus because we're trying to condense
all this information. But I think they're like it was
some of the like how did I end up writing that?
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Like?
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Who who wrote that line? Well? Stop me, I'm just
the I'm just the dude. Like to the Wrights comics,
there's a lot of pow. And it was this that
line of history is complicated, violence is simple, because that
was the first thing that struck me as we're driving
around of how much of all this history that we're
looking at, all this history that we're reading, and yet
it was this one act that destroyed essentially the people
(24:40):
at the time, they had kin and you know descendants
that had moved on into other locations, but you know,
at that location they ceased to exist and you know,
in their traditional homeland. And then just being super supportive
like Will and the Library Company and the Q Foundation
being super supportive of the work with this incredible exhibit,
you know where we celebrated the native community just sh
(25:03):
I mean like it was packed, you know, had this
incredible opening. We talked about Ghost River, we talked about
the exhibit. There's a documentary that goes with it that
came out to the shop and filmed us.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
It was beautiful and even like the imagery is very
like sad and it fits like the whole story. And
I just think it's incredible that somebody was driven or
you know, found a way to get all these people
to work on this, because otherwise that story would just
have gotten lost, like every other story from a lot
of different people that don't exist anymore, that we would
have never known for him.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Right, And those stories get buried, and that's I think
that's that's always been like my goal is to find
those because we have the stories that we know that
have been replicated so many times. It's it's difficult to count.
It's Pocahontas, it's saka Jaweya, you know our modern folks.
It's will a man killer, it's deb Holland, right, and
(25:54):
then so many native men, you know, so many chiefs.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Right.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
I was like, you get four women and then like
a thousand chiefs, and it's always like chiefs. It's sitting bull,
it's crazy horse. It's this mythology of the and West,
and it's hard for Native identity when that's what you
have to conform to, right, Like, because I always tell
in talks that I give I'm just like my people
were corn growers, Like I don't look like my northern relations.
(26:22):
I don't ride horses, and I am not tall and ripped.
My dad used to say, like, we're round and brown's
that's what we are, right, And I was just like,
there's an apt description. Going back to our education roots
(26:43):
is finding those stories that nobody has necessarily heard of.
It's the Code Talkers and expanding on that. It's the
depth of the Code Talkers story, right, Like, there's so
much more incredible, nuanced in that story that one of
these days I would love to put into a comic book.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
You know.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
I talked with Znnie Gorman about you know, her dad
and you know the family, and the full story is
so incredible, like the original the original was it twenty nine?
That story is magnificent And for that when she tells it,
my mind is blown. I'm just sitting there listening to
her tell this incredible story and I was like, oh
(27:20):
my gosh, we should put this in a comic at
some point. And I was like, that's the story that's missing,
because what we always get is sort of the other
side of the narrative, which is supporting sort of the
American industrial you know American military industrial complex, right, which
is we show them overseas everybody in Soldier already. I
was like, the whole lead up for that is actually
an incredible story. And then all of the residuals from that, right,
(27:44):
Like the reason is to why the you know, Navajo
code talkers our positioned the way that they are because
the battles in the South Pacific because of what they did.
But also recognizing that they didn't end the program until
the fifties.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Speaking of like what you were talking about the code
talkers and stuff. When you look at the old pictures,
I can't imagine, like they're not old enough. Those kids
were like ten. It just like makes me so sad
to see like little little boys I know in this
like crazy chaos. But yeah, you did a code love
I actually really love that too.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Thank you. That was one of my favorite stories to
write as well. And interestingly enough found out it was
kind of a true story like it to be. I
didn't even know that though when I first wrote it, right,
like I first wrote it, and then we found we
found a story like that when I was talking because
Ergon Star edited it and we found she said she
(28:43):
had heard a story. We never I didn't find a
writing of it, but essentially there was another story that
was very similar, not with the lost love part, you know,
with with sort of the way that my narrative goes,
but essentially it was a nurse and native guy that
was speaking, you know, in language and he's you know,
yelling and hollering. She's the only one that can understand him,
(29:04):
and goes over and talks in language and kind of
gets into calm down. It wasn't a code talker like
you just a standard native dude, is what we heard,
you know, so like just kind of gets into calm
down and gives him water and then they start talking
to each other. Didn't know that story at all until
you know, like after we had written it, kind of
put it into the world and someone was just like, oh, yeah,
here's the story. This idea of the co talker and
(29:27):
going to war. We do that sort of love story
setup of Stephen now in the war is she's seeing
her you know, her betrothed, her love her boyfriend, and
then you know it's not him under the wrapping, and
so that was kind of like you know a little
bit of the heartbreak, right, so you know, just narrative
pieces to it, but it also like some of it,
especially around the telegrams that actually comes for a little
(29:48):
bit from a story from Laguna, from that idea that
I mean, we lived so rurally, and you know, movies
always show like the car making the long drive up
the road, and and there were stories of that.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
Right.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
There was a story that this grandma told us about,
you know, when her husband went to or at Laguna
and this is out in the village of Siama. She said,
headlights at night, she said, we're the most terrifying was
coming out to Siama at night, right, And she said
that was the hardest part because they were probably bringing
a telegram.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Yeah, and you just have to wait and see what
direction the headlights go. I have an uncle who's passed away,
but he lived in Alaska for years of his life
and he would just come across random Navajo people and
just by hearing them speak, you know, and he'd be like,
oh my gosh, they're here, you know, and he'd make friends,
(30:40):
and then we'd get invited to things that they were
doing out here because they're like, we met your uncle
and he's all the way in Alaska, like, you know,
So that type of stuff has to happen, especially back
during that time. I'm sure different tribes sent people to war,
and yeah, and if they heard their own language, imagine
how like satisfying and comforting that would be in such
(31:01):
a crazy chaotic environment. So yeah, I'm sure there's several
stories like that in different ways.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
One of the things that that we talked about in
the book and teach from the book is that there's
both the formal and the informal programs. Right, So the
formal program being like the ones that were authorized the
Charity of the Chalk taught the Navajo and then the
other tribes where there was an actual recruitment, they were
brought in specifically for that. But there were numerous instances
of the informal groups right where it would be two
(31:29):
Native dudes, you know, or four Native three Native dudes
that like were serving in the same company, you know,
or they were serbrating on the same shit and they
all spoke the same language. We still have in mind
to do sort of like a volume two. Eventually, there
were two other stories that I had put down for that.
One was one that I had heard about two Muscogee
(31:49):
guys and that they got caught one time they were
at mess and they were talking to each other in
Muscogee and CEO overheard them and was like, you two
come with us, right, And they were like, oh man,
we just the boarding school. They were like, come on,
we were just we had we didn't get to talk
(32:11):
and now and they were basically just like you're gonna
be We're like, we're sending you, you know, in this
group on land, and you're gonna stay here on the ship.
And so they talk to each other, so many stories,
so little time.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
You're doing like the mission of like bringing us together,
getting us out there and more importantly given us contents,
because I don't think people know these things are possible
until they see it.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
That's the part that I just love the most, is
just trying to get like, you know, trying to get
just more stuff into the hands for our kids. You know,
it's all you know. Now there's shelves. When I started
the bookstore, and it's not it hasn't been that long.
We didn't have that many shelves of things, and now
it takes up like two book We had like probably
four shelves, and now it takes up four bookcases of
(32:59):
native content and so much of that has happened in
the last eight years that it's just phenomenal. It just
blows me mind the number of kids books that are
coming out by native indigenous centric by for and about
Native people, mysteries, romances. You know what else is sci fi?
Like I think there's stills and what is it? You know,
(33:22):
Weody Old Bear just put out as many ships as stars.
I think it's the name of the book Native sci Fi, right,
like Natives in space, like just more of it. Natives
underwater and I'm not talking about Avatar, so let's just
be very clear or aquamen. Yeah, different natives. Well that's
just there was just one native underwater.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
So yeah, for sure. And that stuff all is like
getting other things to happen, like Echo, and then all
these other things come of that. So it's really you're
really much like starting the seed. You're the seed person.
You are a seed keeper, I guess, I.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Guess, you know, kind of like a little idea seeds.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
Yeah, and so you get shows like Echo, which is
like on Hulu and done really well, and then like
even the one with the product or you know right, yeah, yeah,
that was really good. There's a lot of Native horror
stories and I mean, I love it.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
It's yeah great. I think the biggest piece that we've
got coming up is our first ever East Coast in
digitpop X is going to be this November. We're back
to our November time time time slot, so November fourteenth
through the sixteenth at Duke University on the Duke campus.
So that's our that's our big lead out right now.
(34:36):
We're in that sort of like period of like, Okay,
now's the time we got to push out all.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
The info to get everybody excited about it because it's
so funny, because it's It's one of those things you
know that I've noticed over the years is that a
lot of this stuff has you know, essentially just sort
of like regionalized.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
And I I won't say that in a bad way,
but it's when you're putting stuff out. When we first
were doing things, it was kind of putting stuff out
so that like you know, like a lot of our
academic colleagues could schedule the time and they could you know,
be there for a conf And I was like, but
we're not quite like that, and we don't need all
of this lead time because we're very niche. So we're
gonna get the audience that is either really curious or
(35:15):
is already dedicated. And so this is what we found
is this sort of sweet spot like right now, the
sort of like two month period where it's just gonna
be NonStop. We'll do it like right when it's in
your consciousness. So we are right at that point, which
is really exciting. We got some great folks coming out.
We're really excited about just honestly being out here in
East Coast community in North Carolina and having the chance
(35:39):
to you know, kind of show folks out here have
had a lot of conversations with people about like just
the necessity for having like more of these high profile events,
especially here in this sort of like upper southeast right
like you know, for for Native folks. That's you know,
that is that is parallel to as we've always said,
(36:00):
that is parallel to sort of pow wow or cultural
specific gatherings, that there's also the space for these top
culture secular gatherings right that are that are built around
just being you know, being fun and goofy and weird
and all those other you know, Indigenous teams.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Who who can we expect to see there? Who are
we excited to see.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Got a lot of our great artists, Rayboni juniors coming out,
Christ Gentry. Of course part of it. Tom Ferris is
gonna be there. Also, we get these really great cross
cultural connections of the folks that were you know, inviting
out to the space to be like, hey, you know
you're from you know, Roy's and Cherokee and Tom you know,
kind of in Oklahoma. And then we have some you know,
(36:48):
folks from you know, Navajo, and then we got some
folks from you know, up north. And it's like that
gives us a chance to also make stronger connections among
our relations, our relatives that are doing this fun and
cool work. You know that that allows them to share
(37:08):
and experience and laugh and have a fun time together.
So I think that's always really great because then you know,
it's a way that we can talk to our East
Coast relatives and you know, continue to validate their experience
with colonization and genocide. And that's to the side. They're
also a part of the narrative, and the way that
we engage with that I think is really important, especially
(37:31):
when we're looking at a way of trying to foster
the spirit even as a method, you know, or even
as a way of healing.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
While everything that has been accomplished is great, Lee is
insistent on one thing. We want more.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
A few tabletop games. What more tabletop games? There's a
few role playing games? What more role playing games. I
was like, there's so many spaces where we can and
ways that we can tell stories. The big thing right
now is that I really want to see like toys.
Stephen Paul Judd has limited edition toys, you know, but
I was like, I'm not getting be able to play.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
With it though, I'm not going to take it in
the mud, right.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
I was like, I want to have stuff that's mass
produced ethically for us right that we can, you know,
stuffies and characters and beanie babies. You know. I don't
like to throw indigenous in front of everything, but indigitbabies, you.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
Know, Like, well, when it sounds like that, maybe it
just has to happen me.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
It sounds so cute, right, Like you totally get that.
We've been doing some sketch workout for kind of like
calling the res Life Kids l y Fe and it's
think of like the was it the Homies, so like
archetype characters, but Native I had a whole bunch of
them was like fried bread Grandma, and like you know,
(38:49):
res Baller and you know things like that, right like,
and I was like, that's the kind of stuff that
we want to see ourselves in these spaces and not
as like the small group we want to be in
the space. We want the whole space. At least in
this one instance, we get to take the whole space.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
I remember my mom talking about she used to work
for like employment agencies, Department of Labor funds and stuff
and trying to get people out in this area employed.
And this is probably like in the seventies somewhere she
paid for well, using that money for Native artists to
do cartoons and it was for Disney. So she traveled
(39:28):
to Beverly Hills, and the federal funds were paying for
these artists because that was their skill, and they were
trying to like let them make money from their skill
instead of trying to you know, assimilate them into another direction.
I and for you know, looking at these skills we
already have and finding a place for it instead of
just you know, trying to make us all programmers or
(39:50):
you know, all these jobs that aren't traditional to us.
Or like we're not we have to like unnaturally adapt
to them, and it feels like a contradiction to who
we really are. I'm glad it's become like a trade show,
like a place where people can go to be like
I want to work with this person. I'm going to
go there, and like maybe pitching probably happens. There's all
kinds of stuff that happens.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Yeah, and just these wonderful story connections and collaborations with
folks that just happen organically because you're all in the
same room now, which is the best part about it.
Always my hope in this space is to provide these
you know, opportunities or just you know moments to just
that experience for folks to be together, to share, you know,
(40:31):
and enjoy and laughter. I think that's so key, and
you know, and hope folks, hopefully folks come along. That's
you know, just that we you know, we set the
table and see who wants to come join us from
the meal.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
This episode of Burn Stage, Burn Bridges was written and
produced by myself, Max Williams, and Dylan Fagan. Additional thanks
to the NEXTEP Program special thanks to our guests, Doctor
Lee Francis the fourth in digitpop X will be held
at Duke University on November fifteenth and sixteenth. For more
information on this event, check out in digitpopx dot com.
(41:09):
Thank you for listening.
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