October 1, 2025 • 41 mins
A conversation with Marco Arviso, a contemporary Navajo jeweler who is preserving the traditions of Diné artistry while evolving the form. Marco shares how he's disrupting the dominant distribution of Native jewelry by creating Navajo-owned and operated retail spaces.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey, everyone, before the episode starts. Be sure to subscribe
and rate the show. If you're enjoying it, Thanks for listening.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
It's just things that I'm doing really just to survive, and.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
You're kind of a big deal. This is burn Stage,
Burn Bridges. I'm your host, Nicole Garcia. Just to let
you know, this episode has some cursing.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
You know what, that's very interesting because I don't really
feel like I am out there. I keep my head down.
I make jewelry. I think of these ways of like, oh,
how could I do this different? How can I make
these earrings better? How can I integrate my history, or
how can I integrate this beautiful design of this building
(00:58):
into like a bracelet. I'm about making those connections.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Native people continue to preserve and evolve the art of
jewelry making.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
My name is Marco Arviso. I am a Navajo jewelry maker,
and I make a lot of beautiful things. I think
I'm originally from a place called Black Rock, Tessien, south
of Saley Lake. So in Navajo they say where you're
from is where your belly button or your umbilical cord
(01:28):
is buried. So mine is buried next to a horse
corral out on the rest. Literally part of me is
buried there and it's it's literally sewn into the ground there.
My mom wanted me to be a cowboy or you know,
I helped to extend the ranch life and everything, but yeah,
that didn't really happen. My history has some pretty cool
(01:51):
aspects because we know our clan and we actually our
clan originates right in that area, so a lot of
Navajo's you know, we talked about our matrilineal clan. That's
our clan. So my clan is Nasal, so it's Mescalar
Apache Navjo. A long time ago, during or maybe before then,
(02:12):
we're not really too sure, there was a mescular woman
who was captive by two Navajos and she was brought back.
So all of this is orally transferred from generation to generation.
We were Navajo, but our lineage was a mescular Apache.
I think a lot of times we were kind of
othered because we were not really truly Navajo. We were
(02:33):
we were in so a lot of things were like, well,
why are they living there. They're not really Navajo, They're
now they're Apache, they should go back. But yet we
had lived the experience of being Navajo.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
We kind of have similarities in that because I'm ute clan,
same type of thing. Ute person was a woman was,
you know, put with a family, and our clan developed
and so Apache you.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Yeah, but still Navajo, you know, yeah, and it's still Navajo.
It's also nice too and dating scene because I'm not
really related to a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Yeah, I agree, so with the with your clan and
there's what are your what's in your clan grouping?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yeah, so my my other clan grouping is Hanna Gothney
and the Hanma Gorodney matriarchs. From Hunter's point, those are
who I'm born for. So my dad is Hanna Gothney.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
I like to know more because I think it's amazing
that these things have happened so long ago and they're
still carrying on. You're an amazing artist. That's why I
wanted to talk to you, because you're innovator. You're starting
all these things that none of us have ever done.
And I don't know that you know that. I'm sure
you do, but you maybe just don't want to admit it.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Yeah, I really, you know what, that's very interesting because
I don't really feel like I am out there I
just I keep my head down. I make jewelry. I
think of these ways of like, oh, how could I
do this different? How can I make these earrings better?
How could I integrate my history? Or how could I
integrate this beautiful design of this building into like a
(04:04):
bracelet or into a necklace or or you know. I'm
about making those connections and putting them together in pieces.
So I don't really feel like I know I have
a followers. I know I have a fan base, but
I don't feel like, oh my god, it just makes
me feel icky when I say famous or anything like that.
(04:25):
They just kind of weird me out. I'm very grateful
for people who buy my jewelry and help me and
help me to live and put food in my mouth.
That's always helpful.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
When did this all start for you? Like being the
artists that you are now?
Speaker 2 (04:37):
So I've always been very araty. I just love to
create stuff, and I just really found beauty in that.
So I've always been an artist at heart. And as
I grew up, I dabbled in pottery and sculpting, painting,
and so I did a lot of art. And it
wasn't until I met one of my partners Harry Sandoval Junior,
(04:59):
and he was working for the largest Southwest distributor of
Southwestern jewelry called Radios. But he broke away from that
company and he started making his own stuff and that's
when he was like, hey, you want to learn how
to do this. I was like, hell, yeah, I'll do that.
So I just started learning basic techniques wire wrapping and stringing,
(05:19):
just very fundamental jewelry making stuff. And he was like, wow,
those are really different. You're making some really weird stuff
and he's just hadn't seen those things. So he went
to go sell and we did really well. So we
decided to branch out into other markets. And I think
that's very typical for how a lot of people are
(05:40):
breaking in through the jewelry scene, just going out, starting
out your local craft aair Christmas bazaars, and that's what
we did. We actually, I think our first show was
at Tneck College Music Festival and yeah, we did pretty
good at a little table up and it was pretty nice.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
I love that you still do so many fairs.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Well, somebody made fun of me and they were laughing that.
They were like, I would never do sell my work
at the flea market and I'm like, uh, no, fuck you,
I'm going to be at the flea market because this
is my bread and butter. It gives me such honor
to see an elder or somebody of color, a Navajo
person putting on my jewelry and really gravitating towards that.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
I love that, and that's that's me.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
I'm at the I'm scrappy. I'll be at the flea market.
I will be set up in the blowing wind and
the dust, in the hot, in the heat, or bundled
up in during winter, selling my jewelry because that's who
I love to do that. I love talking to the people,
to the dinnet people who are buying my stuff.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
That's so embarious, someone would say that, because like, that's
where we are. We love those spaces, We love the
flea market.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
We love well not only that, but I mean these
are great economic powerhouses for our people. This is where
commerce comes in and is introduced, and where we barter,
where we where we sell and And it's so funny
because I saw that individual a couple of years later
selling their work at the flea worket.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Yeah, because the alternative would be, what are you supposed
to be in a trading post and like pain somebody else.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Yeah, I mean that's the whole part that makes me
a little angry because I know tons of Navajo other
Native people selling their amazing, unique jewelry but not getting
the full credit opportunity just making things when this person
who owns this store or this trading post wants it,
(07:28):
selling it at their own price, giving them like bare bones.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
I think being on the reds, there are definitely a
lot of challenges and a lot of you know, space
is such a huge thing.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Totally, and I don't want to like make it sound
like it's impossible for other Native people to do this,
but the world is actually against them. That's why it
just doesn't happen.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
It doesn't happen.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Yeah. And there's a lot of a lot of mental
blocks as well, because it's not only like physical, but
it's also mental. Because there was a big part of
me that was like should I do this? Should I?
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Even like if you haven't seen it, you can't do it.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Yeah, but even making jewelry too. I remember I was
It sounds totally crazy, but I was. I was like
in the restroom and I was like thinking where all
my best thoughts come from. And I was like, oh
my gosh, should I quit my job? Because back then
I was I was a medical case manager working for
a nonprofit, which was amazing, rewarding, but so hard, so
(08:26):
so hard. I mean I had one year where I
had about four clients pass away and because of they
weren't taking their medications. I thought I knew what poverty was.
I did not know what poverty was until I was
actually going around delivering medication, creating care plans for clients
and all. It broke my heart. It just I was
(08:48):
just like, Wow, people are really living like this and
are treated like this. What happened to our what happened
to our community of connection? So I experienced that, but
it was so stressful, and that's kind of why I
gravitated towards the jewelry, the creativity. I needed a way
out of it. Yeah, I needed a way of thinking
and clearing a headspace. So I'm there using the restroom
(09:11):
and I'm thinking, you know what, I'm actually making some
money doing this, So I wonder if I should like
quit this job and do that. And I was just like,
I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it.
So finished my business and I finished that career basically,
and I was like, this is what I'm going to do.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Wrapped it up.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Wrapped it up, my god, and we will see that.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
I'm sorry. But yeah, so that that like you mentally
got your headspace in that to do the jewelry and
to like be the official artist. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
So that's what I did, and I decided to make it.
And it was a really hard decision because I was thinking, oh,
my god, what if I fail? And it was scary.
It was one of the most scariest decisions I've ever made.
But I'm really glad I did it because it was
a decision for me and for my own mental health,
for my own way of being in the world and
(10:05):
represented in the world.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
More artists are breaking free from the old systems of selling.
There are systems that were once controlled by non native people. However,
it's not easy with internal barriers.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
The other second artist decision was like creating a retail space.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
You know how hard it is to start a business
as Navajo on Navajo there's so much red tape, and yeah,
space is an issue.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
I think a lot of that red tape fear is
being Navajo. Sometimes they say that because of financial literacy.
I was always taught like, if you have money, you
spend it, you know, like you know, if you got
somebody like, you spend it because you never know what
(10:52):
you're burning a hole exactly exactly. So I really wasn't
how would you say it, like taught to like save
and put money away. And yeah, so there was really
something that I didn't it's.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Not our language, like money is so recent to us. Yeah,
my grandma didn't have a bank account. My mom is
the first one, YEP to have a savings account. Like
elders were scared of banks and hid money. And it's
not our it's not our game. You know, this economy
that we're forced to live in, that's not what we
did before. Before, we didn't use that.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
I've actually been able to teach myself a little bit
about financial literacy. So opening up savings budgeting that's a
really big one. It's a hard one. Also, looking into
taxes I R S. I r S is probably the
biggest thing.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
It's funny because I once got this letter from IRS
and I just I didn't open it for like about
a week. I was just sitting there and I was like,
what the hell am I you so scared of And
so I opened it up and it was like, thank you,
mister r Viso for paying your taxes.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
I feel like, what to what you've they give you
a letter for that? That's far yeah, but yeah, so
I get what you're saying. Then it is a mental
block that we really total. Yeah, like we've been told
you can't make it, you can't do this, you don't
know this.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
My mom she has her master she's out and she
was a child therapist.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
She's a therapist. I'm sure she mentally, oh can help you,
like through the bs. That is like covering most of
our eyes, especially if you're out on the res seeing
the lack of opportunity and stuff.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
She did such amazing work. And my dad he was
He's great at doing a lot of his you know,
he's just a jack of all trades. Like he could
do just do anything, build anything. So I've came from
that background of like, you know, you're capable, you can
do stuff, don't let anything stop you. So that was
my my family support. Part of it is actually having space,
(12:53):
and that's a privilege that I have to own up
to because a lot of people don't have that space.
You know, they're operating just like on maybe a desk
inside there by their bed. During the pandemic, I had
moved to Hunter's Point, Arizona, went to go live with
my dad. I blocked the entryway and I put up
a table right there, and I was like, all right,
now we're all using the back door, so that's gonna
(13:14):
be the red entrance. So I use that as as
my studio. And it was so tiny, so small, and
I think I just had enough seat for me to
like sit down. And I was rotating around, like I
would turn around and there's my buffing station. Turn around,
there's my my torch. And and it was very hard
because it was also like, you know, burning stuff with
a quarterly, like everybody's just like watching TV. And I'm like,
(13:40):
oh wow, okay, yeah this, I can't really be doing this.
I need to find some space. So I was lucky
enough to find a space out in a gas station
retail market in window Rock. So I go. I talked
to the manager and they had some spots. This place
is notorious for our relatives who were kind of unsheltered
and they're you know, they're drinking there. It's where the
(14:01):
flea market is, so they're going there looking for money,
looking for, you know, something to survive, and unfortunately, a
lot of that has you know, crime, prostitution, and there's
areas of that pocket that's not so pace for favorable.
I went and I asked the manager. I was saying, hey,
can I use one of the spaces, And she was like, oh,
(14:22):
you don't want to sell your jewelry here, You're gonna
get robbed. You should go and gallop and sell your jewelry.
And I was like, okay, you know, I get that,
I understand that, but I'm pretty scrappy. I'm fine, I'll
be fine anywhere. I'll dead bolt it, and I just
I really need a space. So it took me a while,
but I finally got in there and I was able
(14:44):
to set up a little studio. And these things are
built for fib red houses. So a fireb red house
basically is it's the back room is a kitchenette, and
the front room is a serving area separated by a
wall with a window, an order window. And the place
smelt like grease, like a doe. I hired a couple
of individuals and we just cleaned that place. We scrubbed
(15:06):
it down with chlorox and decreaser and we put a
fresh coat of paint and yeah, we really just put
that place and we made it a nice little.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
It's beautiful, Yeah, a little retail space. It's perfect. Like
it makes sense because there's the flea market outside of it.
So if you're just a day in wind Rock, you
can take a stroll around and see all kinds of
cool things, eat some lunch, have some fribrance.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Well. See, that's the thing is that like a lot
of people avoided that place, like they would go to
eat and grab food and then there was no like
milling around or checking things out. I was building up
the space and trying to make it, you know, something
that was a really cool retail place. And it got
bought out. Some de net owners actually came in Carol Wiletto.
Now I had this amazing Navajo entrepreneur woman who was
(15:55):
there wanting to make change positive space, and she really
invested it into beautifying the place. Put down some great gravel,
cleaned up a lot of the graffiti, a lot of
the trap and then me coming in and actually putting
in like this really cute retail place. It was beautiful.
It actually was. It did become that place where you
(16:15):
could actually come out, grab some food, walk around, enjoy
the flea market. We had Calandra at City with Winston Paul.
She set up her beautiful boutique. Then we have a
beautiful hair hairspace salon and it's perfect.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
The location, wind Rock being the capital, it all makes sense.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
It just makes me proud that we actually have a
little space.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
It's like a mall, your mall, which is like Navajo.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Owned business Navalo owned businesses.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
So that was like the first big jump for you.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
And that all happened because I was just looking for space. Honestly,
I wasn't really I didn't have this grand idea of
oh I'm going to do this. It was basically me
out of survival and for me, a lot of moves
happened that way. So I had the retail store, I
was doing shows. I had my online store, adding another
facet to what CORVII of Jewelry had to offer. They
(17:18):
had hired three people to help me and making jewelry,
making my designs, and it was my vision to actually
create stuff and make the sample and then having training
our Dinnert people to actually make those pieces and then
to be selling them to wholesalers, so I would be
like a wholeso maybe like a design house. And I
(17:40):
picked up clients from Japan. I've picked up stores all
over the United States amazing, from Anchorage, Alaska to the
Anchorage Museum to casinos and yeah, we've been in about
about maybe fifteen or twenty places that actually carry my
work and it's just been. It was great. It was
(18:01):
a really great ride.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
You know, most businesses are there's already a big needs,
like you know, food, gas, like those things you can't
live without, like jewelry you can live without. But like,
you know, you do really well doing this.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Yeah, that's the thing is, you know, it is a
luxury item. Yeah, And I definitely felt that after the
actually after the pandemic is actually when I when I
felt it. During the pandemic, I did really well for
some strange reason. And I'm still really not too clear
on how that happened, but it kind of worked out
(18:35):
for me in the pandemic, and I think it was
because I looked at the way I was making money
and I thought, oh, okay, online sales. Online sales are
really pumping. I got to pump up my website. I
got to do this, this and that, and so that's
kind of where I directed more of my time and
energy to. Our numbers were always climbing. We'd have like
little hills and bumps and things, and I could make
(18:57):
this great jewelry very innovative, and I can actually start
becoming a designer. And so I thought, hey, well maybe
I could start going to other places that, yeah, have
been historically selling Native work and get my butt in there.
I met up with another artist, Nicholas Jackson, and he's
also done it as well. He owns his own store
(19:18):
out in Albuquerque in Old Town called the Silver Artichoke.
We both have that same insight, you know, we both
had that same like, Okay, this is what we can
accomplish because we've we've done that before. So why don't
we team up together, and why don't we go and
we look for another store we could we could join
forces and we can do this. And so we were
(19:38):
looking for places and spaces and we landed upon Santa Fe.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
It's a big deal for Native artists to own their
own shops, especially in Santa Fe, a city known for
Native art, but not always with us in control or
benefiting from it.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
We found a space inside of the plaza, the Santa
Fe Historic Plaza.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
The plaza is very infamous for being like the hub
of the tourists who come to this region, well that experience,
and like.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
It's very famous for that, and it's very famous, infamous
for selling native work by non native people.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Totally. This is where you come. This is like the
center of it. And the plaza isn't big. It's like
a block, right, And so those people that have had
those spots there, I could imagine they've had them their
whole generations to generation.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
There's generational yeah, a lot of generational wealth that's being
passed around and non native.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Always not Native, Yeah, especially in that little zone. The
only Native artists that get to sell their sell as
almost like a prop.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
It's by the Governor's palace and it's a bunch of
vendors who are sitting on the ground. You have a
blanket there because you're basically sitting on cement, which is
extremely cold. I think maybe you get a chair, but
you you have to be kind of literally below people.
(21:06):
So people are sitting there, they're selling their work and
it's a really great opportunity because it.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Is Yeah, they make a lot of likea you.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Can sell you can sell at the Santa fe market prices,
and usually they're going to be a lot cheaper there
than in like you go to another name brand store
like right around the corner, and they're selling something very
similar for three times still of a market. So you know,
you're able to get a competitive price for your beautiful creations.
(21:35):
As a native person, you're able to do that.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
There a lot of the different Native artists compete for
those spaces and they do really well. But the reason
why I wanted to talk about that because you having
your actual space, the brick and mortar like the store
there is actually even more insane and like so hard
to do. First of all, because we're just saying how
(21:58):
competitive it is, but like also those people never leave
those buildings because I'm sure they make a lot of money.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Yeah, no, they make a lot of money. Yeah, definitely.
So we were able to get into a space and
we came at that exact moment where it's all meant
to be. Yeah, they had just hired someone who was
native in to manage the building. We were just like, wow,
this is really cool. So not only were we into
(22:24):
a space, but and we were the first native or
I would. I don't want to say the first, but
we were the native vendor that was in there because
there is no other native vendors inside of the market.
We just so happened to also have a native manager,
maybe a little cosmic nod of like, hey, yeah, maybe
you guys should be here. Sometimes I feel like, for
(22:46):
me myself, I'm not really deserving of stuff like that,
because I didn't do the santave Indian Market. I didn't
do these like really huge markets of a lot of
these famous artists go through. So there's some self doubt,
you know. And I'm only bringing that up because I
want to tell people that, uh, that is so fucking normal.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Oh yeah, Imposterson is Yeah, I don't even know what
literally exactly. Yeah, And I think it's natural I have that,
especially being native. There is the Santa fe Indian Market
that's a major thing, very compuive, huge, I mean.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Being an artist, being a native artist, I was always
told that the Santa fe Indian Market, that's it, that's
the You've made it. Once you've come into the Santa
fe Indian Market, you've made it. You've got a ribbon
and you're the deal is sealed.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
The gods have said you are worthy. Yeah, I don't know, Like, yeah,
it's like you made it to fashion Week or whatever
as a designer, but like it's once a year in
the summer. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Yeah, so it's once a year in the summer. It
is basically who the best of the best artists that
come in and they put their their work in.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Part of the reason why you don't feel worthy, although
you are, is that you never made it into market,
but like you didn't like it doesn't even well.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
And that's the thing is I was thinking about it.
I got the application. You know, this was back when
I was even before I had my first store. Oh
my god, I believe I said.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
That, yeah, most of the stars.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
So I was looking at the application. This is back
when I was like in my trailer and I was like,
oh yeah, I can't wait. I'm gonna try this out.
And so they were like, you can't use bamboo, coral,
you can't use this, you can't use this, and you
can't and I'm like, wait a minute, this is a
lot of stuff that I use. This is the way
(24:39):
I express myself, Like fuck you, Like, who are you
trying to tell me what native art is? And you
are telling me what to use, what not to use.
This is about expressing myself. This is about me clearing
mental space for myself for the job that I was doing.
This is my art is what saved me.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
So and it just kind of put it into the
context of competing against one another, making sure you're using
the best metals, the finest gems. It just really turned
me off. And then I found out that like a
lot of the judges were not even Native, and I'm like,
wait a minute, so this is a native art contest,
but then it's being judged by non natives.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Yeah. It reminds you of like those shows on PBS
where they bring in antiques and sometimes when they do
it here what is the Antique Roadhouse or.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Whatever antique road show?
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yeah, and then the Santa Fe ones will be like
it's usually native art or native artifacts and they'll be
like telling all this and I'm like, where did you
get this item and why do you have it? And
judging it and telling me so many stories.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
I think Santa Fe Indian Market is a touchy subject
for a lot of artists because I hear people saying
things like that. But I think also it's a huge,
huge economic force for Native people. I know a lot
of artists who's that's where they make a big chunk
of their sales. So you know that that's it's important
(26:09):
for them.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
It's very competitive. It's how they make their lives. That's
why I'm not like wanting to look down on it
at all. Yeah, we just want to talk about how
hard it is and like all of the stuff that
is keeping all these other great artists and other Native
people from showing their stuff.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
And I just want to tell people that there's other
ways around it. There's other ways of being successful, you know.
Like I was saying, is that you know a lot
of times that people will be like, oh the sag
of indie markets, that's the end, the end all, and
be all. I don't know. I think there's other ways
around it.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Yeah, I've never been there.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
I've never applied. Yeah, I've never applied, and maybe maybe
one day I will, But right now I think I'm okay.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
Your designs are a little different. They're not traditionally Navojo
what you would expect. Would you could you kind of
talk about the different types of styles of jewelry?
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Sure? So I like to do things that are uniquely different.
Love turquoise and I love silver, but my pieces are
not that traditional heavy piece of you know, heavy bracelet
with the big chunks of turquoise.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
The chunky Yeah, yeah, I love that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
And that's the thing is I love that. I love
that stuff, and I have that stuff. I've purchased, I
have like my Navajo basket is full of that stuff,
and I love it. It's it's it's great. I love it.
I just wanted something else, to be more artistic, and
I wanted something for every day as well, and I
wanted to find something for someone who could afford something
(27:42):
like that, you know, something that would be a good
alternative to wear. And also, our people are changing. We're
not romanticized. We're here, we're alive, we're doing podcasts. It's
a new place that we're doing. And evolution happens whether
we want it or not, and that evolution of jewelry
is I would like to think that I have maybe
(28:02):
a little nuke or a little indent on what has
been evolving Navajo jewelry. And that's all I want. I
just wanted a little a little thing that I could
be like, oh wow, that's a Marco or Viso piece.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Yeah, I definitely can tell if something is yours. You
have a lot of your stuff. I'm wearing a couple of.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Your things, and yeah, I think that's one of the
biggest compliments.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Yeah, and it's the lines are always a certain way.
I don't know, there's there's got to be other ways
to explain.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
I like to do clean. I like to do clean.
I like to do a very geometric architecturalnesses. I also
like to take very old traditional designs and make them
more nuanced and also making them bigger. So like one
of the bigger things is the Navajo basket, taking just
the Yeah, I want those taking the inner portion of
(28:51):
it and dramatizing that and also not only that, but
but taking that significance of what it means.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Yeah, because they all have meaning behind them.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Yeah, exactly, the things that we put on ourselves they
have more meaning. You know, they have meaning, and they
have they have emphasis on what we are and a
lot of that is through the lens of the artists,
and we're able to spread that preservation of our culture, tradition, teachings,
you know, all of those things were able to perpetuate
that through wearable art. The ring you're wearing right now,
(29:24):
that actually is from Rock Point. So there's two rocks
in Rock Point. There's a story behind it, and it's
about two friends or two sisters that were separated and
they came back together and they just were so elated
about being back together again that they were those are
those two rocks.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Oh my god, I love that. I love this even more.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
I love creating stuff and I love I know where
it comes from. It comes from my heart.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
I'm constantly looking at people's jewelry and I'm in Gallup,
So that's like another jewelry hub.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
We're not Santa Fe, but Santa Fe either. Catafe is
almost like the Disneyland or I don't know, it's.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Yeah, I would say it's kind of like the romanticize Southwest.
I think that's important about our store, and I'm about
our retail space in the plaza because we're there because
we want to open a door that has been shy
to be open for Native people. We're able to sell
(30:19):
people's work, their prints, you know, things they can't really
sell that that you commissioned. Yeah, we commission things. But
I guess what I'm trying to say is we are
trying to sell what people are making. Now. We're not
a museum, we're not a romanticized trading post. We are
(30:44):
creating a platform, and we have a platform for artists
to kind of sell what they want to sell and
showing life experiences of how they're living. Now.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Now we're in the public, now that we're being pictured,
Now we're in magazines. I saw the Native Vogue edition. Yes,
it's like we're having this moment just recently where we're
being in the mainstream and now we get to wear
our stuff. Yea promote other artists that maybe you wouldn't
have had that platform years ago, because where would you
(31:25):
see this.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
I think it's changing. Yeah, it's definitely changing. I think
even those artists and also markets are changing too. They're
bringing in a lot more younger artists, and we're seeing
amazing collaborations with Naomi Glasses, with Ralph Lauren, We're seeing collaborations,
I mean, especially even with Kuanta chasing Ours, walking runways
for Chanel and oh my god, it's just it's amazing,
(31:50):
Like it's so amazing to see Native people in those spaces.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
So I know that you're all about promoting other artists.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Yeah, if you're a Native artist and you have something
that you really want to be put out there, we
want to actually offer that opportunity because it's important because
we have to extend that kinship not only to our clans,
but also to how we live our lives.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Yeah, I really love that. I think it's very important.
It's kind of the whole reason why this show exists
because I just feel like people need to know what's
happening now with us. I mean a lot of people
don't even know we exist anymore.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
I actually had people who've come into our store and
they were like, Wow, Native American people are still here.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
It's bizarre to be that, Like we've always been here.
We're doing some different things now. And I'll give you
a little peep at it because it is cool shit.
You're going to want to buy this stuff because all
of these artists are so talented. They're doing innovative stuff
that we haven't seen. It's not boring, you know, it's
not like quiet luxury.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Well, I think it's a great time because I'm a
strong believer that our time in living our lives, they
reflect of what's coming out what people are making. Because
it's expression of that. So right now, we're just coming
out in a time that's that's almost like a renaissance
of what Native art and jewelry and and is coming
(33:16):
out because we're actually being recognized, we're given these platforms,
so our store is able to actually just offer that
one little, little another little place that we're able to
do that here in a place that historically has not
been great for Native people. So I mean, it's crazy
that we're actually out here and competing. We're on that
(33:38):
level of other stores as well to kind of be
on that level with them as a native owner. And
we're not the only native gallery in Santa Fe. So
we got to actually band together and create some kind
of I don't know, I was thinking like maybe some
kind of map tool. It could be like, Okay, if
(33:59):
you want to shop native, you want to shop direct,
you want to shop authentic, you know, go to this place,
go to that place, this place, And I think that
would be such a great experience for somebody who's wanting
to know more about what's happening with Native.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
Art, the other people that sell on the plaza, like
we were talking about.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
On the portal. I think it's called the Portal on the.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
Portal, like they also are remarkable.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Well, they're always listed on my first recommendation of people
who we are wanting to see authentic native jewelry, alsay, like,
first of all, go to the portal. Yeah, what's going on?
Speaker 1 (34:34):
Yeah, so they would be the first on this map. Yeah,
that you're going to make We got to make it
up somehow. We're going to do this because I think
that's that's great, and not only maybe it could expand
to just like all New Mexico, because you know the
shops in Albuquerque, and we have very few native own
(34:55):
in Gallup, but there are a few. If you want
to go to the other places too, that's fine. But
if you're curious to see native.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Own, yeah, native own coming from Native people, Yes, you
know that's important. And us and I, oh my gosh,
I don't even think I said the name of our store.
We're called the Net and Company and it's a collaboration,
it's a partnership LLC with myself, Marco Orviso and Nicholas Jackson.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
What is the place in wind Rock called?
Speaker 2 (35:24):
So that's my flagship store. It's called Marco Orviso Jewelry,
just named after I guess myself and my business.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
As Native people, we know how important it is to
shop native owned whenever we can.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
I think me as an artist too, like I've always
always gravitated towards native owned. Yeah, like I've always supported
native owned, Native owned, like staying at native owned hotels
or going to shop at native owned places, doing shows
that are native owned, like I know during the Santa
Fe Indian Market, I always did the Seeds Market or
(35:58):
I would do the Buffalo thunder Market because these are
native owned spaces.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Yeah. I think even driving up here from Albuquerque, you're
hitting like all the different pubblos and they kind of
do get.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Your gas a native owned gas station.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
Totally, and they'll even have their little side markets with tables.
I love shopping at a pop up like flea market.
That type of stuff is always going to be first
priority for me shopping life.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Well, every Christmas, I'm always getting native owned, our native
made items, because you know, we got to support our people.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Oh yeah yeah yeah. And my sisters lives in Albuquerque,
so she knows a lot more of the pubblo and
she always has a lot of Publo jewelry, so she'll
tell me stop here, go here and then you know,
but like I just wanted to acknowledge that, you know,
we all share this space, we all want to come
up together. But the style of art is a little different.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Yeah, it's reflective of the different tribals. Yeah, we carry
a lot of different work represented by different tribal people.
So we want to show that that variation because we
just want to give a platform for those those first people.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
And you'll see you'll see different artists from you know,
all the way up in Canada. They do more of
like the beads, and it varies different tribes, and I
don't think people really understand that they're just like all
native jewelries in one box. But it's so different. It's
it's so diverse. Do we talk a little bit how
I met you?
Speaker 2 (37:25):
Ahead?
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Oh my god, not that it's scandalists or anything, but
like I'm at Marco. Gosh, it's been years now on
like a small little film, and we needed to do styling.
We needed jewelry. We wanted cool shit, we wanted it
young and like looking great. So somebody working with us
put us in contact with you, and you were so
(37:47):
nice enough to kind of come over and up and
style our league and lend us a lot of your
cool stuff and make it really cool. And from then
on I just remember following your art and buying more jewelry.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
And it was pretty cool.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
I remember like people were kind of annoyed with us
because we just kept giggling. I don't know, like we
were just like laughing, yeah, and being annoying.
Speaker 2 (38:13):
And they kept on telling us to be quiet and
like are you guys done.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
We're like, oh, shoot, okay. Yeah. It was just fun.
I was like, oh my gosh, like this is so
much fun to watch Marco do his thing and make
something beautiful and ah yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
That was a fun shoot. It was out in the
middle of Oaks Oh Springs, yeah, and the arroyos and
then the Hogan Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
Massive rain and yeah. Yeah. It was in the middle
of nowhere and we just had fun. We had a
fun day.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
We always have fun.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
Marco is helping native art grow and giving other native
artists a platform. He just wants to inspire people and
one day go back home to the res.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
I just want to show people that, you know, you
can do anything you want to do. And it sounds
so cheesy, but it really is. And I think if
you have like a like a support system, and you
take care of yourself, and you know you can, really
you can. You can go out and you can you
can make things happen for yourself. The heart of my
(39:10):
design is the people, their story, traditions, their their teachings.
Like a lot of that is just so reflective in
the way I do my business and the way I
make my jewelry. I would really really like to create
a strong and solid base so that way I could
actually move out of Santa Fe. I love Santa Fe,
(39:32):
but I want to have this grow its own legs
and take care of itself and then go back to
the res.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
You gotta go back to your belly button.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Yeah, I gotta go back to my belly button. And yeah,
my belly buttons. Call it my calm. My center is
back on the Reds. I know a lot of people
they say, oh, I got to get out of the Reds,
But for me, that was my saving grace. You know,
I did grow up a little bit in the city,
but I, oh my god, I was so bad. I
would I was dealing with a lot of trauma, a
(40:02):
lot of alcohol. So when I went back to the Res,
I had seramon. I have my family, I have my
good upbringing, and so a lot of that was very
calming for me. So going back to the res is
actually for me, it's restorative.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
Yeah. I love that you're saying that, because everybody I
hear is always saying like, get out of the res.
But then you're just like a normal person, like how
great is that? Yeah? Yeah, I mean like this is
actually amazing where we have here. You know, We've like
just done so many amazing things. I hate when people
say like you got to leave that, you know, it's
like leave my culture, like and then what just be
(40:38):
a nine to five in the grid in traffic.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
My suburb, Della Totalina. She always used to say, our
people are our way of life, that's our real sovereignty.
We got to go back and we honor that, and
we have to remember that.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
This past August, Denaying Company close their original location to
focus on a new gallery style space. Still located in
Santa Fe. You can always find his work at his
flagship store in Winderrock, Arizona, and online at Marcoarviso dot com.
This episode of burn Sage, Burn Bridges was written and
produced by myself, Nicole Garcia, along with Max Williams and
(41:19):
Dylan Fagan. Special thanks to our guests Marco Arviso. Remember
to follow the show. New episodes come out on Wednesdays.
Thank you for listening.
Hey, everyone, before the episode starts. Be sure to subscribe
and rate the show. If you're enjoying it, Thanks for listening.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
It's just things that I'm doing really just to survive, and.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
You're kind of a big deal. This is burn Stage,
Burn Bridges. I'm your host, Nicole Garcia. Just to let
you know, this episode has some cursing.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
You know what, that's very interesting because I don't really
feel like I am out there. I keep my head down.
I make jewelry. I think of these ways of like, oh,
how could I do this different? How can I make
these earrings better? How can I integrate my history, or
how can I integrate this beautiful design of this building
(00:58):
into like a bracelet. I'm about making those connections.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Native people continue to preserve and evolve the art of
jewelry making.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
My name is Marco Arviso. I am a Navajo jewelry maker,
and I make a lot of beautiful things. I think
I'm originally from a place called Black Rock, Tessien, south
of Saley Lake. So in Navajo they say where you're
from is where your belly button or your umbilical cord
(01:28):
is buried. So mine is buried next to a horse
corral out on the rest. Literally part of me is
buried there and it's it's literally sewn into the ground there.
My mom wanted me to be a cowboy or you know,
I helped to extend the ranch life and everything, but yeah,
that didn't really happen. My history has some pretty cool
(01:51):
aspects because we know our clan and we actually our
clan originates right in that area, so a lot of
Navajo's you know, we talked about our matrilineal clan. That's
our clan. So my clan is Nasal, so it's Mescalar
Apache Navjo. A long time ago, during or maybe before then,
(02:12):
we're not really too sure, there was a mescular woman
who was captive by two Navajos and she was brought back.
So all of this is orally transferred from generation to generation.
We were Navajo, but our lineage was a mescular Apache.
I think a lot of times we were kind of
othered because we were not really truly Navajo. We were
(02:33):
we were in so a lot of things were like, well,
why are they living there. They're not really Navajo, They're
now they're Apache, they should go back. But yet we
had lived the experience of being Navajo.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
We kind of have similarities in that because I'm ute clan,
same type of thing. Ute person was a woman was,
you know, put with a family, and our clan developed
and so Apache you.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Yeah, but still Navajo, you know, yeah, and it's still Navajo.
It's also nice too and dating scene because I'm not
really related to a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Yeah, I agree, so with the with your clan and
there's what are your what's in your clan grouping?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yeah, so my my other clan grouping is Hanna Gothney
and the Hanma Gorodney matriarchs. From Hunter's point, those are
who I'm born for. So my dad is Hanna Gothney.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
I like to know more because I think it's amazing
that these things have happened so long ago and they're
still carrying on. You're an amazing artist. That's why I
wanted to talk to you, because you're innovator. You're starting
all these things that none of us have ever done.
And I don't know that you know that. I'm sure
you do, but you maybe just don't want to admit it.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Yeah, I really, you know what, that's very interesting because
I don't really feel like I am out there I
just I keep my head down. I make jewelry. I
think of these ways of like, oh, how could I
do this different? How can I make these earrings better?
How could I integrate my history? Or how could I
integrate this beautiful design of this building into like a
(04:04):
bracelet or into a necklace or or you know. I'm
about making those connections and putting them together in pieces.
So I don't really feel like I know I have
a followers. I know I have a fan base, but
I don't feel like, oh my god, it just makes
me feel icky when I say famous or anything like that.
(04:25):
They just kind of weird me out. I'm very grateful
for people who buy my jewelry and help me and
help me to live and put food in my mouth.
That's always helpful.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
When did this all start for you? Like being the
artists that you are now?
Speaker 2 (04:37):
So I've always been very araty. I just love to
create stuff, and I just really found beauty in that.
So I've always been an artist at heart. And as
I grew up, I dabbled in pottery and sculpting, painting,
and so I did a lot of art. And it
wasn't until I met one of my partners Harry Sandoval Junior,
(04:59):
and he was working for the largest Southwest distributor of
Southwestern jewelry called Radios. But he broke away from that
company and he started making his own stuff and that's
when he was like, hey, you want to learn how
to do this. I was like, hell, yeah, I'll do that.
So I just started learning basic techniques wire wrapping and stringing,
(05:19):
just very fundamental jewelry making stuff. And he was like, wow,
those are really different. You're making some really weird stuff
and he's just hadn't seen those things. So he went
to go sell and we did really well. So we
decided to branch out into other markets. And I think
that's very typical for how a lot of people are
(05:40):
breaking in through the jewelry scene, just going out, starting
out your local craft aair Christmas bazaars, and that's what
we did. We actually, I think our first show was
at Tneck College Music Festival and yeah, we did pretty
good at a little table up and it was pretty nice.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
I love that you still do so many fairs.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Well, somebody made fun of me and they were laughing that.
They were like, I would never do sell my work
at the flea market and I'm like, uh, no, fuck you,
I'm going to be at the flea market because this
is my bread and butter. It gives me such honor
to see an elder or somebody of color, a Navajo
person putting on my jewelry and really gravitating towards that.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
I love that, and that's that's me.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
I'm at the I'm scrappy. I'll be at the flea market.
I will be set up in the blowing wind and
the dust, in the hot, in the heat, or bundled
up in during winter, selling my jewelry because that's who
I love to do that. I love talking to the people,
to the dinnet people who are buying my stuff.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
That's so embarious, someone would say that, because like, that's
where we are. We love those spaces, We love the
flea market.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
We love well not only that, but I mean these
are great economic powerhouses for our people. This is where
commerce comes in and is introduced, and where we barter,
where we where we sell and And it's so funny
because I saw that individual a couple of years later
selling their work at the flea worket.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Yeah, because the alternative would be, what are you supposed
to be in a trading post and like pain somebody else.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Yeah, I mean that's the whole part that makes me
a little angry because I know tons of Navajo other
Native people selling their amazing, unique jewelry but not getting
the full credit opportunity just making things when this person
who owns this store or this trading post wants it,
(07:28):
selling it at their own price, giving them like bare bones.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
I think being on the reds, there are definitely a
lot of challenges and a lot of you know, space
is such a huge thing.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Totally, and I don't want to like make it sound
like it's impossible for other Native people to do this,
but the world is actually against them. That's why it
just doesn't happen.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
It doesn't happen.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Yeah. And there's a lot of a lot of mental
blocks as well, because it's not only like physical, but
it's also mental. Because there was a big part of
me that was like should I do this? Should I?
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Even like if you haven't seen it, you can't do it.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Yeah, but even making jewelry too. I remember I was
It sounds totally crazy, but I was. I was like
in the restroom and I was like thinking where all
my best thoughts come from. And I was like, oh
my gosh, should I quit my job? Because back then
I was I was a medical case manager working for
a nonprofit, which was amazing, rewarding, but so hard, so
(08:26):
so hard. I mean I had one year where I
had about four clients pass away and because of they
weren't taking their medications. I thought I knew what poverty was.
I did not know what poverty was until I was
actually going around delivering medication, creating care plans for clients
and all. It broke my heart. It just I was
(08:48):
just like, Wow, people are really living like this and
are treated like this. What happened to our what happened
to our community of connection? So I experienced that, but
it was so stressful, and that's kind of why I
gravitated towards the jewelry, the creativity. I needed a way
out of it. Yeah, I needed a way of thinking
and clearing a headspace. So I'm there using the restroom
(09:11):
and I'm thinking, you know what, I'm actually making some
money doing this, So I wonder if I should like
quit this job and do that. And I was just like,
I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it.
So finished my business and I finished that career basically,
and I was like, this is what I'm going to do.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Wrapped it up.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Wrapped it up, my god, and we will see that.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
I'm sorry. But yeah, so that that like you mentally
got your headspace in that to do the jewelry and
to like be the official artist. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
So that's what I did, and I decided to make it.
And it was a really hard decision because I was thinking, oh,
my god, what if I fail? And it was scary.
It was one of the most scariest decisions I've ever made.
But I'm really glad I did it because it was
a decision for me and for my own mental health,
for my own way of being in the world and
(10:05):
represented in the world.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
More artists are breaking free from the old systems of selling.
There are systems that were once controlled by non native people. However,
it's not easy with internal barriers.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
The other second artist decision was like creating a retail space.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
You know how hard it is to start a business
as Navajo on Navajo there's so much red tape, and yeah,
space is an issue.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
I think a lot of that red tape fear is
being Navajo. Sometimes they say that because of financial literacy.
I was always taught like, if you have money, you
spend it, you know, like you know, if you got
somebody like, you spend it because you never know what
(10:52):
you're burning a hole exactly exactly. So I really wasn't
how would you say it, like taught to like save
and put money away. And yeah, so there was really
something that I didn't it's.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Not our language, like money is so recent to us. Yeah,
my grandma didn't have a bank account. My mom is
the first one, YEP to have a savings account. Like
elders were scared of banks and hid money. And it's
not our it's not our game. You know, this economy
that we're forced to live in, that's not what we
did before. Before, we didn't use that.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
I've actually been able to teach myself a little bit
about financial literacy. So opening up savings budgeting that's a
really big one. It's a hard one. Also, looking into
taxes I R S. I r S is probably the
biggest thing.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
It's funny because I once got this letter from IRS
and I just I didn't open it for like about
a week. I was just sitting there and I was like,
what the hell am I you so scared of And
so I opened it up and it was like, thank you,
mister r Viso for paying your taxes.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
I feel like, what to what you've they give you
a letter for that? That's far yeah, but yeah, so
I get what you're saying. Then it is a mental
block that we really total. Yeah, like we've been told
you can't make it, you can't do this, you don't
know this.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
My mom she has her master she's out and she
was a child therapist.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
She's a therapist. I'm sure she mentally, oh can help you,
like through the bs. That is like covering most of
our eyes, especially if you're out on the res seeing
the lack of opportunity and stuff.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
She did such amazing work. And my dad he was
He's great at doing a lot of his you know,
he's just a jack of all trades. Like he could
do just do anything, build anything. So I've came from
that background of like, you know, you're capable, you can
do stuff, don't let anything stop you. So that was
my my family support. Part of it is actually having space,
(12:53):
and that's a privilege that I have to own up
to because a lot of people don't have that space.
You know, they're operating just like on maybe a desk
inside there by their bed. During the pandemic, I had
moved to Hunter's Point, Arizona, went to go live with
my dad. I blocked the entryway and I put up
a table right there, and I was like, all right,
now we're all using the back door, so that's gonna
(13:14):
be the red entrance. So I use that as as
my studio. And it was so tiny, so small, and
I think I just had enough seat for me to
like sit down. And I was rotating around, like I
would turn around and there's my buffing station. Turn around,
there's my my torch. And and it was very hard
because it was also like, you know, burning stuff with
a quarterly, like everybody's just like watching TV. And I'm like,
(13:40):
oh wow, okay, yeah this, I can't really be doing this.
I need to find some space. So I was lucky
enough to find a space out in a gas station
retail market in window Rock. So I go. I talked
to the manager and they had some spots. This place
is notorious for our relatives who were kind of unsheltered
and they're you know, they're drinking there. It's where the
(14:01):
flea market is, so they're going there looking for money,
looking for, you know, something to survive, and unfortunately, a
lot of that has you know, crime, prostitution, and there's
areas of that pocket that's not so pace for favorable.
I went and I asked the manager. I was saying, hey,
can I use one of the spaces, And she was like, oh,
(14:22):
you don't want to sell your jewelry here, You're gonna
get robbed. You should go and gallop and sell your jewelry.
And I was like, okay, you know, I get that,
I understand that, but I'm pretty scrappy. I'm fine, I'll
be fine anywhere. I'll dead bolt it, and I just
I really need a space. So it took me a while,
but I finally got in there and I was able
(14:44):
to set up a little studio. And these things are
built for fib red houses. So a fireb red house
basically is it's the back room is a kitchenette, and
the front room is a serving area separated by a
wall with a window, an order window. And the place
smelt like grease, like a doe. I hired a couple
of individuals and we just cleaned that place. We scrubbed
(15:06):
it down with chlorox and decreaser and we put a
fresh coat of paint and yeah, we really just put
that place and we made it a nice little.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
It's beautiful, Yeah, a little retail space. It's perfect. Like
it makes sense because there's the flea market outside of it.
So if you're just a day in wind Rock, you
can take a stroll around and see all kinds of
cool things, eat some lunch, have some fribrance.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Well. See, that's the thing is that like a lot
of people avoided that place, like they would go to
eat and grab food and then there was no like
milling around or checking things out. I was building up
the space and trying to make it, you know, something
that was a really cool retail place. And it got
bought out. Some de net owners actually came in Carol Wiletto.
Now I had this amazing Navajo entrepreneur woman who was
(15:55):
there wanting to make change positive space, and she really
invested it into beautifying the place. Put down some great gravel,
cleaned up a lot of the graffiti, a lot of
the trap and then me coming in and actually putting
in like this really cute retail place. It was beautiful.
It actually was. It did become that place where you
(16:15):
could actually come out, grab some food, walk around, enjoy
the flea market. We had Calandra at City with Winston Paul.
She set up her beautiful boutique. Then we have a
beautiful hair hairspace salon and it's perfect.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
The location, wind Rock being the capital, it all makes sense.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
It just makes me proud that we actually have a
little space.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
It's like a mall, your mall, which is like Navajo.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Owned business Navalo owned businesses.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
So that was like the first big jump for you.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
And that all happened because I was just looking for space. Honestly,
I wasn't really I didn't have this grand idea of
oh I'm going to do this. It was basically me
out of survival and for me, a lot of moves
happened that way. So I had the retail store, I
was doing shows. I had my online store, adding another
facet to what CORVII of Jewelry had to offer. They
(17:18):
had hired three people to help me and making jewelry,
making my designs, and it was my vision to actually
create stuff and make the sample and then having training
our Dinnert people to actually make those pieces and then
to be selling them to wholesalers, so I would be
like a wholeso maybe like a design house. And I
(17:40):
picked up clients from Japan. I've picked up stores all
over the United States amazing, from Anchorage, Alaska to the
Anchorage Museum to casinos and yeah, we've been in about
about maybe fifteen or twenty places that actually carry my
work and it's just been. It was great. It was
(18:01):
a really great ride.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
You know, most businesses are there's already a big needs,
like you know, food, gas, like those things you can't
live without, like jewelry you can live without. But like,
you know, you do really well doing this.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Yeah, that's the thing is, you know, it is a
luxury item. Yeah, And I definitely felt that after the
actually after the pandemic is actually when I when I
felt it. During the pandemic, I did really well for
some strange reason. And I'm still really not too clear
on how that happened, but it kind of worked out
(18:35):
for me in the pandemic, and I think it was
because I looked at the way I was making money
and I thought, oh, okay, online sales. Online sales are
really pumping. I got to pump up my website. I
got to do this, this and that, and so that's
kind of where I directed more of my time and
energy to. Our numbers were always climbing. We'd have like
little hills and bumps and things, and I could make
(18:57):
this great jewelry very innovative, and I can actually start
becoming a designer. And so I thought, hey, well maybe
I could start going to other places that, yeah, have
been historically selling Native work and get my butt in there.
I met up with another artist, Nicholas Jackson, and he's
also done it as well. He owns his own store
(19:18):
out in Albuquerque in Old Town called the Silver Artichoke.
We both have that same insight, you know, we both
had that same like, Okay, this is what we can
accomplish because we've we've done that before. So why don't
we team up together, and why don't we go and
we look for another store we could we could join
forces and we can do this. And so we were
(19:38):
looking for places and spaces and we landed upon Santa Fe.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
It's a big deal for Native artists to own their
own shops, especially in Santa Fe, a city known for
Native art, but not always with us in control or
benefiting from it.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
We found a space inside of the plaza, the Santa
Fe Historic Plaza.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
The plaza is very infamous for being like the hub
of the tourists who come to this region, well that experience,
and like.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
It's very famous for that, and it's very famous, infamous
for selling native work by non native people.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Totally. This is where you come. This is like the
center of it. And the plaza isn't big. It's like
a block, right, And so those people that have had
those spots there, I could imagine they've had them their
whole generations to generation.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
There's generational yeah, a lot of generational wealth that's being
passed around and non native.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Always not Native, Yeah, especially in that little zone. The
only Native artists that get to sell their sell as
almost like a prop.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
It's by the Governor's palace and it's a bunch of
vendors who are sitting on the ground. You have a
blanket there because you're basically sitting on cement, which is
extremely cold. I think maybe you get a chair, but
you you have to be kind of literally below people.
(21:06):
So people are sitting there, they're selling their work and
it's a really great opportunity because it.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Is Yeah, they make a lot of likea you.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Can sell you can sell at the Santa fe market prices,
and usually they're going to be a lot cheaper there
than in like you go to another name brand store
like right around the corner, and they're selling something very
similar for three times still of a market. So you know,
you're able to get a competitive price for your beautiful creations.
(21:35):
As a native person, you're able to do that.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
There a lot of the different Native artists compete for
those spaces and they do really well. But the reason
why I wanted to talk about that because you having
your actual space, the brick and mortar like the store
there is actually even more insane and like so hard
to do. First of all, because we're just saying how
(21:58):
competitive it is, but like also those people never leave
those buildings because I'm sure they make a lot of money.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Yeah, no, they make a lot of money. Yeah, definitely.
So we were able to get into a space and
we came at that exact moment where it's all meant
to be. Yeah, they had just hired someone who was
native in to manage the building. We were just like, wow,
this is really cool. So not only were we into
(22:24):
a space, but and we were the first native or
I would. I don't want to say the first, but
we were the native vendor that was in there because
there is no other native vendors inside of the market.
We just so happened to also have a native manager,
maybe a little cosmic nod of like, hey, yeah, maybe
you guys should be here. Sometimes I feel like, for
(22:46):
me myself, I'm not really deserving of stuff like that,
because I didn't do the santave Indian Market. I didn't
do these like really huge markets of a lot of
these famous artists go through. So there's some self doubt,
you know. And I'm only bringing that up because I
want to tell people that, uh, that is so fucking normal.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Oh yeah, Imposterson is Yeah, I don't even know what
literally exactly. Yeah, And I think it's natural I have that,
especially being native. There is the Santa fe Indian Market
that's a major thing, very compuive, huge, I mean.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Being an artist, being a native artist, I was always
told that the Santa fe Indian Market, that's it, that's
the You've made it. Once you've come into the Santa
fe Indian Market, you've made it. You've got a ribbon
and you're the deal is sealed.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
The gods have said you are worthy. Yeah, I don't know, Like, yeah,
it's like you made it to fashion Week or whatever
as a designer, but like it's once a year in
the summer. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Yeah, so it's once a year in the summer. It
is basically who the best of the best artists that
come in and they put their their work in.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Part of the reason why you don't feel worthy, although
you are, is that you never made it into market,
but like you didn't like it doesn't even well.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
And that's the thing is I was thinking about it.
I got the application. You know, this was back when
I was even before I had my first store. Oh
my god, I believe I said.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
That, yeah, most of the stars.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
So I was looking at the application. This is back
when I was like in my trailer and I was like,
oh yeah, I can't wait. I'm gonna try this out.
And so they were like, you can't use bamboo, coral,
you can't use this, you can't use this, and you
can't and I'm like, wait a minute, this is a
lot of stuff that I use. This is the way
(24:39):
I express myself, Like fuck you, Like, who are you
trying to tell me what native art is? And you
are telling me what to use, what not to use.
This is about expressing myself. This is about me clearing
mental space for myself for the job that I was doing.
This is my art is what saved me.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
So and it just kind of put it into the
context of competing against one another, making sure you're using
the best metals, the finest gems. It just really turned
me off. And then I found out that like a
lot of the judges were not even Native, and I'm like,
wait a minute, so this is a native art contest,
but then it's being judged by non natives.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Yeah. It reminds you of like those shows on PBS
where they bring in antiques and sometimes when they do
it here what is the Antique Roadhouse or.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Whatever antique road show?
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yeah, and then the Santa Fe ones will be like
it's usually native art or native artifacts and they'll be
like telling all this and I'm like, where did you
get this item and why do you have it? And
judging it and telling me so many stories.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
I think Santa Fe Indian Market is a touchy subject
for a lot of artists because I hear people saying
things like that. But I think also it's a huge,
huge economic force for Native people. I know a lot
of artists who's that's where they make a big chunk
of their sales. So you know that that's it's important
(26:09):
for them.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
It's very competitive. It's how they make their lives. That's
why I'm not like wanting to look down on it
at all. Yeah, we just want to talk about how
hard it is and like all of the stuff that
is keeping all these other great artists and other Native
people from showing their stuff.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
And I just want to tell people that there's other
ways around it. There's other ways of being successful, you know.
Like I was saying, is that you know a lot
of times that people will be like, oh the sag
of indie markets, that's the end, the end all, and
be all. I don't know. I think there's other ways
around it.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Yeah, I've never been there.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
I've never applied. Yeah, I've never applied, and maybe maybe
one day I will, But right now I think I'm okay.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
Your designs are a little different. They're not traditionally Navojo
what you would expect. Would you could you kind of
talk about the different types of styles of jewelry?
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Sure? So I like to do things that are uniquely different.
Love turquoise and I love silver, but my pieces are
not that traditional heavy piece of you know, heavy bracelet
with the big chunks of turquoise.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
The chunky Yeah, yeah, I love that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
And that's the thing is I love that. I love
that stuff, and I have that stuff. I've purchased, I
have like my Navajo basket is full of that stuff,
and I love it. It's it's it's great. I love it.
I just wanted something else, to be more artistic, and
I wanted something for every day as well, and I
wanted to find something for someone who could afford something
(27:42):
like that, you know, something that would be a good
alternative to wear. And also, our people are changing. We're
not romanticized. We're here, we're alive, we're doing podcasts. It's
a new place that we're doing. And evolution happens whether
we want it or not, and that evolution of jewelry
is I would like to think that I have maybe
(28:02):
a little nuke or a little indent on what has
been evolving Navajo jewelry. And that's all I want. I
just wanted a little a little thing that I could
be like, oh wow, that's a Marco or Viso piece.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Yeah, I definitely can tell if something is yours. You
have a lot of your stuff. I'm wearing a couple of.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Your things, and yeah, I think that's one of the
biggest compliments.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Yeah, and it's the lines are always a certain way.
I don't know, there's there's got to be other ways
to explain.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
I like to do clean. I like to do clean.
I like to do a very geometric architecturalnesses. I also
like to take very old traditional designs and make them
more nuanced and also making them bigger. So like one
of the bigger things is the Navajo basket, taking just
the Yeah, I want those taking the inner portion of
(28:51):
it and dramatizing that and also not only that, but
but taking that significance of what it means.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Yeah, because they all have meaning behind them.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Yeah, exactly, the things that we put on ourselves they
have more meaning. You know, they have meaning, and they
have they have emphasis on what we are and a
lot of that is through the lens of the artists,
and we're able to spread that preservation of our culture, tradition, teachings,
you know, all of those things were able to perpetuate
that through wearable art. The ring you're wearing right now,
(29:24):
that actually is from Rock Point. So there's two rocks
in Rock Point. There's a story behind it, and it's
about two friends or two sisters that were separated and
they came back together and they just were so elated
about being back together again that they were those are
those two rocks.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Oh my god, I love that. I love this even more.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
I love creating stuff and I love I know where
it comes from. It comes from my heart.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
I'm constantly looking at people's jewelry and I'm in Gallup,
So that's like another jewelry hub.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
We're not Santa Fe, but Santa Fe either. Catafe is
almost like the Disneyland or I don't know, it's.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Yeah, I would say it's kind of like the romanticize Southwest.
I think that's important about our store, and I'm about
our retail space in the plaza because we're there because
we want to open a door that has been shy
to be open for Native people. We're able to sell
(30:19):
people's work, their prints, you know, things they can't really
sell that that you commissioned. Yeah, we commission things. But
I guess what I'm trying to say is we are
trying to sell what people are making. Now. We're not
a museum, we're not a romanticized trading post. We are
(30:44):
creating a platform, and we have a platform for artists
to kind of sell what they want to sell and
showing life experiences of how they're living. Now.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Now we're in the public, now that we're being pictured,
Now we're in magazines. I saw the Native Vogue edition. Yes,
it's like we're having this moment just recently where we're
being in the mainstream and now we get to wear
our stuff. Yea promote other artists that maybe you wouldn't
have had that platform years ago, because where would you
(31:25):
see this.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
I think it's changing. Yeah, it's definitely changing. I think
even those artists and also markets are changing too. They're
bringing in a lot more younger artists, and we're seeing
amazing collaborations with Naomi Glasses, with Ralph Lauren, We're seeing collaborations,
I mean, especially even with Kuanta chasing Ours, walking runways
for Chanel and oh my god, it's just it's amazing,
(31:50):
Like it's so amazing to see Native people in those spaces.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
So I know that you're all about promoting other artists.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Yeah, if you're a Native artist and you have something
that you really want to be put out there, we
want to actually offer that opportunity because it's important because
we have to extend that kinship not only to our clans,
but also to how we live our lives.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Yeah, I really love that. I think it's very important.
It's kind of the whole reason why this show exists
because I just feel like people need to know what's
happening now with us. I mean a lot of people
don't even know we exist anymore.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
I actually had people who've come into our store and
they were like, Wow, Native American people are still here.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
It's bizarre to be that, Like we've always been here.
We're doing some different things now. And I'll give you
a little peep at it because it is cool shit.
You're going to want to buy this stuff because all
of these artists are so talented. They're doing innovative stuff
that we haven't seen. It's not boring, you know, it's
not like quiet luxury.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Well, I think it's a great time because I'm a
strong believer that our time in living our lives, they
reflect of what's coming out what people are making. Because
it's expression of that. So right now, we're just coming
out in a time that's that's almost like a renaissance
of what Native art and jewelry and and is coming
(33:16):
out because we're actually being recognized, we're given these platforms,
so our store is able to actually just offer that
one little, little another little place that we're able to
do that here in a place that historically has not
been great for Native people. So I mean, it's crazy
that we're actually out here and competing. We're on that
(33:38):
level of other stores as well to kind of be
on that level with them as a native owner. And
we're not the only native gallery in Santa Fe. So
we got to actually band together and create some kind
of I don't know, I was thinking like maybe some
kind of map tool. It could be like, Okay, if
(33:59):
you want to shop native, you want to shop direct,
you want to shop authentic, you know, go to this place,
go to that place, this place, And I think that
would be such a great experience for somebody who's wanting
to know more about what's happening with Native.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
Art, the other people that sell on the plaza, like
we were talking about.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
On the portal. I think it's called the Portal on the.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
Portal, like they also are remarkable.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Well, they're always listed on my first recommendation of people
who we are wanting to see authentic native jewelry, alsay, like,
first of all, go to the portal. Yeah, what's going on?
Speaker 1 (34:34):
Yeah, so they would be the first on this map. Yeah,
that you're going to make We got to make it
up somehow. We're going to do this because I think
that's that's great, and not only maybe it could expand
to just like all New Mexico, because you know the
shops in Albuquerque, and we have very few native own
(34:55):
in Gallup, but there are a few. If you want
to go to the other places too, that's fine. But
if you're curious to see native.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Own, yeah, native own coming from Native people, Yes, you
know that's important. And us and I, oh my gosh,
I don't even think I said the name of our store.
We're called the Net and Company and it's a collaboration,
it's a partnership LLC with myself, Marco Orviso and Nicholas Jackson.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
What is the place in wind Rock called?
Speaker 2 (35:24):
So that's my flagship store. It's called Marco Orviso Jewelry,
just named after I guess myself and my business.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
As Native people, we know how important it is to
shop native owned whenever we can.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
I think me as an artist too, like I've always
always gravitated towards native owned. Yeah, like I've always supported
native owned, Native owned, like staying at native owned hotels
or going to shop at native owned places, doing shows
that are native owned, like I know during the Santa
Fe Indian Market, I always did the Seeds Market or
(35:58):
I would do the Buffalo thunder Market because these are
native owned spaces.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Yeah. I think even driving up here from Albuquerque, you're
hitting like all the different pubblos and they kind of
do get.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Your gas a native owned gas station.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
Totally, and they'll even have their little side markets with tables.
I love shopping at a pop up like flea market.
That type of stuff is always going to be first
priority for me shopping life.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Well, every Christmas, I'm always getting native owned, our native
made items, because you know, we got to support our people.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Oh yeah yeah yeah. And my sisters lives in Albuquerque,
so she knows a lot more of the pubblo and
she always has a lot of Publo jewelry, so she'll
tell me stop here, go here and then you know,
but like I just wanted to acknowledge that, you know,
we all share this space, we all want to come
up together. But the style of art is a little different.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Yeah, it's reflective of the different tribals. Yeah, we carry
a lot of different work represented by different tribal people.
So we want to show that that variation because we
just want to give a platform for those those first people.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
And you'll see you'll see different artists from you know,
all the way up in Canada. They do more of
like the beads, and it varies different tribes, and I
don't think people really understand that they're just like all
native jewelries in one box. But it's so different. It's
it's so diverse. Do we talk a little bit how
I met you?
Speaker 2 (37:25):
Ahead?
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Oh my god, not that it's scandalists or anything, but
like I'm at Marco. Gosh, it's been years now on
like a small little film, and we needed to do styling.
We needed jewelry. We wanted cool shit, we wanted it
young and like looking great. So somebody working with us
put us in contact with you, and you were so
(37:47):
nice enough to kind of come over and up and
style our league and lend us a lot of your
cool stuff and make it really cool. And from then
on I just remember following your art and buying more jewelry.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
And it was pretty cool.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
I remember like people were kind of annoyed with us
because we just kept giggling. I don't know, like we
were just like laughing, yeah, and being annoying.
Speaker 2 (38:13):
And they kept on telling us to be quiet and
like are you guys done.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
We're like, oh, shoot, okay. Yeah. It was just fun.
I was like, oh my gosh, like this is so
much fun to watch Marco do his thing and make
something beautiful and ah yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
That was a fun shoot. It was out in the
middle of Oaks Oh Springs, yeah, and the arroyos and
then the Hogan Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
Massive rain and yeah. Yeah. It was in the middle
of nowhere and we just had fun. We had a
fun day.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
We always have fun.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
Marco is helping native art grow and giving other native
artists a platform. He just wants to inspire people and
one day go back home to the res.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
I just want to show people that, you know, you
can do anything you want to do. And it sounds
so cheesy, but it really is. And I think if
you have like a like a support system, and you
take care of yourself, and you know you can, really
you can. You can go out and you can you
can make things happen for yourself. The heart of my
(39:10):
design is the people, their story, traditions, their their teachings.
Like a lot of that is just so reflective in
the way I do my business and the way I
make my jewelry. I would really really like to create
a strong and solid base so that way I could
actually move out of Santa Fe. I love Santa Fe,
(39:32):
but I want to have this grow its own legs
and take care of itself and then go back to
the res.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
You gotta go back to your belly button.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Yeah, I gotta go back to my belly button. And yeah,
my belly buttons. Call it my calm. My center is
back on the Reds. I know a lot of people
they say, oh, I got to get out of the Reds,
But for me, that was my saving grace. You know,
I did grow up a little bit in the city,
but I, oh my god, I was so bad. I
would I was dealing with a lot of trauma, a
(40:02):
lot of alcohol. So when I went back to the Res,
I had seramon. I have my family, I have my
good upbringing, and so a lot of that was very
calming for me. So going back to the res is
actually for me, it's restorative.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
Yeah. I love that you're saying that, because everybody I
hear is always saying like, get out of the res.
But then you're just like a normal person, like how
great is that? Yeah? Yeah, I mean like this is
actually amazing where we have here. You know, We've like
just done so many amazing things. I hate when people
say like you got to leave that, you know, it's
like leave my culture, like and then what just be
(40:38):
a nine to five in the grid in traffic.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
My suburb, Della Totalina. She always used to say, our
people are our way of life, that's our real sovereignty.
We got to go back and we honor that, and
we have to remember that.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
This past August, Denaying Company close their original location to
focus on a new gallery style space. Still located in
Santa Fe. You can always find his work at his
flagship store in Winderrock, Arizona, and online at Marcoarviso dot com.
This episode of burn Sage, Burn Bridges was written and
produced by myself, Nicole Garcia, along with Max Williams and
(41:19):
Dylan Fagan. Special thanks to our guests Marco Arviso. Remember
to follow the show. New episodes come out on Wednesdays.
Thank you for listening.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.