September 10, 2025 • 31 mins
A conversation with the first Native Showrunner and a TV writer, where we find out it’s in her blood to tell stories and how she is leading the way for many other Native storytellers.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey, everyone, before the episode starts, be sure to subscribe
and rate the show. If you're enjoying it, thanks for listening.
When you see Native people in film and television, we're
usually just one note characters written by people who aren't Native.
This is burn Sage Burn Bridges. I'm your host, Nicole Garcia.
(00:31):
I'm Navajo Dine from Gallup, New Mexico. My clan is
the Ute people, and I'm born for the Mexican people.
My maternal grandfather is of the Mountain Cove people, and
my paternal grandfather is from Mexico. Native people have always
been storytellers. It's how we share knowledge and kept our
culture alive. So if you're telling stories today, you're carrying
(00:53):
on what your ancestors have always done.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
I just really want Native people to watch the show
and make stuff, you know, and be inspired to make
whatever their art they're making. That to me is like
the most important thing.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
This is a groundbreaking creative force who is reshaping the
television landscape in a way that's long overdue.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Hey, Sierra Alisi in chef have ahead Inchlansha ch addition. Elli.
My name is Cierra Taller and ellis I'm a member
of the Nava Nation. I'm Edgewater clan born for the
Mexican clan Edgewater.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Where are they from?
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Uh, My family is from Newcombe, New Mexico, So from
like the four corner area of the New Mexico side
near two Gray Hills. That's where my my grandma's side's from.
And then my grandpa Sam Teller, who was Juahaglini. He
was all water flowing together. His people were from.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
White Rock Sierra. Is a storyteller and comes from a
long line of storytellers.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
When our people were interned at Bosca Redondo after the
long walk, we were forced into internment in a in
a fort. It was like a messed up Ellis Island.
They gave us all Christian names and census numbers basically
to monitorists. That's because I believe that means like I'm
related to them. And then then so many like Banali's
and things like that, because a lot of that meant
(02:13):
like certain relations and stuff. But they apparently asked my
great great grandfather what he did for a living, and
he explained that he was a storyteller. He's a keeper
of the stories of our people. And so that's why
his last name is teller, And that's why my middle
name is Teller, because my mom wanted to make sure
her maiden name was put in our names. And then
my great grandfather was born in a wagon on the
(02:35):
way back when they were able to return, and so
that was like a huge story in our family. I
was just like perseverance that anytime you know, you felt
like you couldn't do something, your mom would be like,
your great grandpa was born in a wagon on the
way back.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
And then of course he become a storyteller.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Yeah, I'm a TV writer. I was a showrunner of
a show called Rutherford Falls that aired for two seasons
on Peacock. It was a huge honor to become a
television writer because it does feel oddly like very traditional.
It feels like Bob Dylan going electric that this is
something we've been doing for hundreds of years. And so yeah,
I like always want to stay humble, but like you
(03:11):
carry with you a sense of like purpose and confidence
because like you know, you've been doing it a lot
longer than the other people sometimes that are in the
room with you, because there's like this legacy in your family.
It is cool, Like my family has always just loved
a good story, like we love gossip. We're such bad gossips,
and we do collect stories like we will we will
(03:32):
kind of best story sort of wins, and any family
gathering it always ends up in us like holding court
and like telling, you know, telling tales from when you're
like a little kid to like when you're very old.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Growing up urban, she was influenced by a wide range
of characters that shaped her unique voice.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
I grew up in this place called Christopher City when
I lived in Tucson, So my dad was going to
college when I was between like five and ten. When
we lived at this place, that was kind of like
a dorm opportunity for families, so it was most of
like international families and then like single moms. That was
sort of the demo that I was raised with was
people from other countries and then just like single moms
(04:11):
figuring it out, And those were sort of my my
heroes growing up. My mom is a master na tapestry weaver.
There's like always these random rugs that just find their
way to like the British Museum or like you know
these like random places and you're like, who would have guessed?
You know? When I was weaving that in my like
crappy apartment, like it would end up, you know, at
the Smithsonian.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
I met Sierra just before she moved to LA during
a fellowship program for aspiring film and television creators.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
It was such a wild experience because like, I moved
to LA in twenty ten after we met at that
IA fellowship, and then just decided for like a year
to say yes to any invitation because I was definitely
afraid of speaking a public. I was so afraid of
like just my own shadow at that time. But I
was like, I'm here, I'm in La. I'm going to
make the most of this. Who knows how long it'll last,
(05:00):
And so I was like, I'll just say yes to
anything offered to me.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Saying yes provided an opportunity for her to tell an
embarrassing story, and I.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Laughed so hard that I relieved sixty four ounces of
pepsi all over Ahmed's forcell And it was like minutes.
I mean it was so long. I went on a journey.
It went from like shock to like that ecstasy of
how good it philosophy, to like shame, and then like
(05:31):
back to the ecstasy.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
This embarrassing story helped start her television career. When we
first met, you were in the program with me and
Santa Fe, and then you got into a program and
you started with happy endings. I remember watching that show
and being like, Wow, this is hilarious, Like this is
so funny, and of course all the other stuff you've done,
but I always found it funny with happy endings. The
(05:56):
Dave character finding out he was Navajo one six Saint Navaja.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
This time of year is always a little bittersweet for me. Well,
Thanksgiving the real reminder of my people's hardships as an
American living with one sixteenth Navahoism. I'm going to use
this as an opportunity to educate, perhaps enlighten all you
white people, and throw an authentic Thanksgiving.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Oh my god, it's so funny. And then he starts
like wearing like, you know.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Free crazy fringe jackets.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
If I don't show up with a sack of clams,
I'm gonna look like a real dope.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
I do like that jacket.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
This jacket for some clams. I mean, this thing is choice.
Plus it's thirty degrees outside. You're trying to trick me
into a very uneven trade. This story of my people,
white people you who focus on fifteen sixteenths of a man.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
That was funny because like we were trying to come
up with a story like a small seat runner and
he was the last character left and they were asking
me to go, like Sara, do people like find out
they're like Native American and like take it, take it
too far? And I was like, yeah, that's not a
crazy story. And then they were like, well he should
be like one sixteenth you know, and there was a
different tribe. I was like, no, he should want sixteenth
(07:07):
Navajo because like, no one is one sixteenth Napa ho
Like it's you're not legally You're like, it's like it's
like a crazy thing to claim. I didn't write that episode,
but I was able to pitch on it a bunch
and be on set and everything.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
It's for sure your joke though, I mean.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
A lot of couple of them work, couple of them work,
but they like they jumped on it. Like that's what's
so great about a writer's room. Was like once you
explain the situation, like all these people will jump on
it and pitch their jokes and stuff and like and
he played it so great, like he did that thing
of like that white guy taking something too far and
being like way too excited about something, and it was
so funny. But it's crazy now because like now they're everywhere.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Because all the like tests and stuff that you can see.
So crazy, No, I know, that was so fun to watch,
and of course, like you're doing all the other shows
and then finally transitioning from just a writer to a showrunner,
like that is insane. Now you're like the boss. How
how is that? How is that transition?
Speaker 2 (08:01):
I mean I loved it. I loved being the boss.
I've always like whenever I was a kid and like
we play house, I was always the mom. Like even
if I wanted to be a different character, they'd be like,
you're the mom. I'm like, all right, I guess I
have the mom. Like I've always been like super maternal.
So like, I really loved that room of getting to
staff like native writers and non native writers that I'd
worked with for many years and in Hollywood and kind
(08:22):
of having us all commune together and workshop these ideas
and come together with like all these sort of fun,
exciting ideas for the show. And then also to really
like bring in all these like native artists that I'd
worked with for many years. The language I speak is
is of commerce. Like all of the artists on our
show got paid, Like there was no like native art
that we didn't buy or pay a licensing fee for.
(08:44):
Like there were a lot of Native artists that were like, wow,
I've been on other TV shows and we get paid
in like exposure, you know. But I was like, no,
like every native artist gets paid on the show. I
was like, I'm not messing around with that. And we
wanted so badly to, like I think, to just like
champion those artists and like not take advantage. We had
an amazing Native artist I named Nali Ball season two
(09:07):
of Brother Heard, and she was Jana sh Meeting, who
plays the lead on that show, was her babysitter, and
she was like, I would love to put her in
the show for doing before like showcasing a native artist.
And we were able to find like six or seven
pieces of hers from like different collections to bring in
make our own little mini exhibit as a set. And
when she showed up to set for her cameo, Natalie
(09:28):
was like, this is nicer than some of the shows
I've had. She was like, this is so cool. She's
like I've never had this any pieces, like in a
room together. One of our actors, Gonnedy o'horn, loved her clothes.
She was like, I never get to wear like camel
hair coats, like beautiful sweaters. She's like, I always have
to wear like, you know, kind of red ass stuff
and look also like native jewelry, and like how we
(09:50):
actually dressed with other stuff that's like a mixture of
you know, the native designers and things I always grew
up loving, like ner Ephron and like rom coms where
you had these sort of plucky women who were trying
to figure it out and they were going to these
beautiful locations and wearing these beautiful clothes. And our native
writers who were from the Northeast were also like, this
is how I grew up, this is what my life
(10:11):
was like. So it didn't feel like it was like
a fantasy necessarily, but it was also just something you
never get to see. It was just a really fun
experience to get to bring that specificity, but also like
in that world that I always loved, which is that
kind of rom calm world.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
I was like watching it and of course all the
social media and stuff, and I thought it was just
like a huge celebration of not only the show being
you know you a native showrunner and then native writers,
and then of course like the content of the show
having like food trucks with like native food. I was like, Wow,
they're really like going for it.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
We were like we have to be on point, like
everything has to be cool, like please just like make
us look cool, make us look good. Like any director
we had, native or non native, I was like, we
we have to have jokes, we have to like, we
have to look good, we have to like win because
like we never get this. So when it was like
you know, Dallas gold Tooth character falling in love with
(11:17):
Jenna's character, it's the most romantic, you know. Taza Shavis,
who was one of our native directors, she was like,
I want a sweeping crane shot. I want like because
it's I want the Pixies to play you know when
they kiss. Because it was like it's like we never
get this, you know, we want like the best version
of this stuff because we we always have to compromise
and we always have to like skim and it's like
(11:38):
not not today.
Speaker 4 (11:39):
You know.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
It was sort of our mantra, like let's just put
it all out there and see what happened.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Yeah, the characters were amazing. I mean just Jenna did
so well. You never see anybody like her as a lead,
you know.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
We never get that Native women never get that. Never
stuff made by Native people.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Right right, they're like recast that doesn't right.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Yeah, I mean, god bless like trying when we were passing,
you know, for the show. I mean, like the industry
has rewarded it specific type of Native actor. And there's
so many great Native actors out there. So this is
no dis on Native actors, but like it is hard
to find native woman who's not like a boat show model,
you know, who's not this like kind of very specific
looking type of person. And so just to find Jana
(12:21):
and to see her an average sized woman who was
incredibly funny, incredibly talented, you totally buy. You know, the
chemistry she had with Dustin Ama Dallas, like can do
it all, truly can make you laugh and cry and
fall in love. Like it was such a great opportunity
to like have her just shine and she'd really never
done anything before that, and didn't see her as bev
(12:41):
like to see her as somebody completely different reservation.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Does and does that very real too, so real, Like
you just know that girl, I am that girl.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Oh, I'm like, but I think I'm the nerd. I
can't even pretend to be cooled, bev, I'm the nerd.
I'm breaking. But like I think, like it was just
such a great opportunity, and that was what was fun about,
you know, Reservation Dogs versus our show, was that, like
we had a lot of the same people playing wildly
different characters. Like you really got to see the range
of what these actors could do because there were multiple
(13:10):
opportunities to be on different shows.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
And I really was not expecting to like certain characters
that I absolutely love, like the Terry character. I was like, oh,
I know this man, oh you know, and then like
just his whole story. I just fell in love with
the guy, like just that whole you know, trying to hustle,
but also like I'm doing this to like you know, yeah,
(13:33):
I just thought that whole character was great. It was
very surprising. I wasn't expecting that at all and not
expecting to like him so much.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Thank you so much. I feel like so much of
that is Michael Grays, Like he is just such a lovable,
wonderful human being. That you want to write for all
the time. But I also think like that's native writers.
Like I think almost shows the native casino owner is
a one note and is pretty pretty flat, you know,
and evil and just kind of mustache towarly, even though
Indians kicker mustaches. There's an episode where he wants his daughter,
(14:03):
who's doing incredible beat work, to make money off of
it and sell it. And because he came from this
like hustle culture of like you had to defend yourself,
and the only language people understand his money. And that
came from me and Jana in the room because I'm
like an Indian market baby, and she'd be making these incredible,
beautiful pieces and she's like, I'm just gonna give this
away and I was like, what are you doing? What's
like four hundred dollars? Like I was like gaming out,
(14:24):
like if you make six of those weak and liked,
and she's like, yeah, I don't want to do that.
That's like not why I do it, and like it
just didn't make any sense to me. It was like
a really funny like debate back and forth, and someone
was like, I think this is an episode you're terry
and they're like who would be the other who would
be the jan in the situation? And there we're like, oh,
you should have a daughter, like you know, and then
we like game that out and stuff. And then the
story of him getting taken advantage of at the end,
(14:47):
that's based on something that happened to me as a
kid when I was selling made a jewelry as a kid,
this like trader took advantage of me and like kept
a bunch of money of mine and my mom had
to have a huge fight with him and it was crazy.
And I told that story in the room and they
were like that should be his origin story. They're like,
that should be what happened to him. Harry, I'm Harry.
(15:08):
I'm like, I'm Reagan, Anam Nathan, like I am all
of those characters. It is. It's crazy that way, but yeah,
I am kind of the secret Terry.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
The first season was great, and then the second season
just took off, like it felt like you guys were
so more loose with the comedy and like looking into
like us really and I that's probably so freaking heartbreaking
when like I know, it.
Speaker 5 (15:32):
Was like like second seasons, you like, you know what
everyone can do, You like know where you want to go,
you feel so like and that really was like I
think the direction of the show would have gone into
a sort of that kind of parks and rec like
hangout show of people just living their lives and having problems,
and it was.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
It was such a fun show. It's my like life's
regret that I don't get to write for those characters
because I love them. I really did.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
When you worked on like other shows, you said you
always had to explain yourself. You always had to like
be the one to be like this is how it goes,
or you know, explaining like your card basically.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Yeah, Like sometimes it was it was like people wanted
to know things and had questions like happy endings, like
you know, for the for the Dave story or something.
Sometimes it would just be your background. It came up
a lot at Superstore when I wrote on that show,
because I had so many families who members who worked
at Target and worked at Walmart and stuff, and like
the people who created that show weren't like people who
(16:24):
shopped at Walmart. So sometimes like I would have to
come with like details from my life and be like
that's not how people do that, Like that's not what
happens at Walmart or like that's not always you know,
the sort of thing, and so like so like that
oddly was like my superpower on that show was that
I'd come from a lot of people who worked those
types of jobs and who shopped there and who knew
Walmart is like those big box stores is like the
(16:47):
community center, you know where we would say like this
is where people drop off their kids, or this is
where people like we're teenagers go to hang after school
and that sort of thing. And so we were able
to kind of create stories. But it was nice because
Superstore was one of the few one of the first
shows where my cousins or my my cousin's kids would
be like, we watched Superstore, we watched your show because
like they had worked at those stores and like felt
(17:10):
like they were There was a good, real kinship to
watching that show, which was great.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
What was the difference between being and like the more
predominantly non native writing circles as opposed to like more
predominantly native circles of writing.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
I think like we had five or six Native writers
the first year, and like samount always had half or
a little more than half. There was no Indians one
oh one. There was no like having to explain stuff
to people, like the non native writers just had to
like catch up, and then I didn't have to do
everything where like like like this like the second episode
(17:43):
was my episode and I had pre written it, and
they were like, well, before this could happen. One of
the native writers was like, they'd have to go to
council first and like get counsel on board. They couldn't
just like go and do this. And I was like,
oh shit, you're right. They would have to go to council.
And then like of course, like the non nat wort's like,
what's counseling, They're like okay, like explaining it to them
and they're like, oh, that's a great episode. So it
was fun to see like Native people pitching from their
(18:06):
lives and then like seasoned comedy writers pitching and so
excited to see a new story, like so excited to
have like a new story to pitch on, and then
the Native writers pitching their comedy on top of that,
and it was like it was like this really great,
Like we were decorating a cake together and everybody was
amazing stuff on it, and it was really everyone was
like feeding off of each other, and the Native writers
were learning like because some of them had never worked
(18:28):
in TV before, like structure and and like all this
stuff from the non Native writers, and the non Native
writers were learning about like you know what we were about.
But also like a writer who was black on our
show was like, oh, we have that too, Like we
do that too. Like the Latino writer on our show
was like, oh we have that like or in the
gig community, like that is totally something we deal with.
It really was like this weird like love fest. And
(18:49):
there were times when, like people people where there was debate,
and even within the Native writers there was debate because
we're not all the same people, right, We're not a monolith.
So we were all from different regions. Some of us
were from the Reds, some of us weren't. But what
was great was like if there was a topic that
we were kind of arguing about, then the room would
be like, oh, this is an episode like if the
Native writers are debating on something, we should chase that
(19:12):
or we should look at that or talk about that.
When you see like scenes with like different Native actors
having conversations and debating what sep it's because like we
in the room were doing that, and that was really cool,
Like that was a really fun ability to have like
all these native voices in a room and then to
be able to dramatize that because you had a show
with so many native actors, and then you had like
(19:32):
a native director who could like usher that through and
didn't minimize certain things, and then you had a native
composers could like write music to back that up.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
I also wanted to ask you about that whole yellow
Stone tailor sharing, like the whole You're getting thrown in
will Brotherford Fall is getting thrown in?
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Forever heard of that show?
Speaker 1 (20:07):
That show, Well, you've done a lot of damage to them.
Apparently apparently these rich people couldn't get their Emmys because
you know, you made a mock show of their show.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
My World's is better than an Emmy. My world's greatest
achievement was keeping.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
How do you like that too?
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Oh? I run on spite?
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Yeah for sure, But that was so funny and like
how did that even equate? I didn't get it. I'm like, why, why.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Is that no idea for me? The Adirondack, you know,
was just like our response to native representation, like how
it feels to sort of be depicted and not have
any ownership over what's being said about you and having
to like kind of pay a fee for something that
you had no control over. You're just trying to figure
out how to combat it. Really, So when we did
(20:56):
our first season of Rutherford Falls, you know a lot
of the questions we got from the press was about
representation and then like what our thoughts were and what
our thoughts were on these things and stuff, and we
were specific about the region and making sure all the
art was accurate and making sure all of the like
the language was accurate and all these things and these
little details and making sure there were like native designers
(21:17):
and that you know, we were very big on like
most things came from the Northeast, and then like clothes
and things were fine, but like there was very little
turquoise on our show. There was very little stuff that
you wouldn't find in like the Northeast because that's where
it was set. And we would always kind of get
frustrated with other shows that featured native people where it
didn't feel like they did any of that research or
(21:37):
like had any of those problems and they just kind
of did whatever, and we would be like, man, if
we were on you know, X y Z show, like
we wouldn't be putting in all this work right now.
This is just like a room joke. And then we
were talking about how how much like Indians love Yellowstone,
like totally the most embarrassing thing about that show is
how much Indians love that show and were Yellowstone, our
(22:00):
cousins would be so impressed.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
You know, they're like, you work on what not yellow Stone?
Speaker 2 (22:05):
What is that? I don't have that channel Yellowstone? We
were on the same platform, like at the time, Yellowstone
was on Pea Fact, and so we were saying like, oh,
there should be a show that like all their parents
loved to watch, And so we just kept name dropping
the show at Arondack season three and everyone's saying like,
oh yeah, like at around Back, you know. And I
remember like on Insecure, they had like a show that
(22:25):
was sort of like a parody like a Shonda Rhime
show that.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Everyone followed, Oh yeah, I remember that called.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Dou North And that was a room bit between a
white writer and a black writer and Insecure where they
were saying like, oh, they would have they would be
these characters on a Shonda show called do North or
I don't if it's a shan show, but like on
a drama called Do North, and it's like they would reenact,
you know, it was like a room bit, but then
they turned it into a show, and so I was like,
when we were pitching ideas for season two, I was like,
(22:53):
I want Reagan and Terry to be cultural consultants on
a bad drama called it And we had to come
up with a name, and someone pitched at Irondack and
we were like, in everyone's parents should love that show,
like Terry should love that show, like all the older
natives should love the show. And so then we created
this like fake drama and it was so funny because
(23:14):
that week all of our costumes and makeup and props
people had the easiest time. They're like, this is the
easiest week we've ever had because we could just go
to like the Paramount props department and pull all this
random stuff because we don't have to follow any of
the rules that we normally have, Like we could just
like make it all a hodgepodge and like make it
some weird like craft basket for Michael's.
Speaker 5 (23:35):
So we did it.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
We thought it was so funny and then there was
like this article from Deadline, which is like a big
trades magazine that said, like, you know, why is Taylor
Sheridan getting snubbed by the Academy, Like why didn't he
get his Emmy nominations? His shows are more popular than
all these other shows, and so they were like it
didn't help that, Like they were skewered on Brutherford Falls
(23:58):
with the show Adirondack, and we were like, what you're
blaming us, Like you're blaming the Indians, Like it's our
fault thing against the Emmy nominations, Like that show is
so much much money and like so much press and
so much everything. We have nothing. We could barely get
a billboard, like are you kidding me? We posted about it,
me and Jana and the other Native folks on the show,
and then within like a couple hours, there were all
(24:20):
these Native memes, like Native Twitter took it over instead
of doing all these memes of us ruining Sheridan's life
all this stuff thing.
Speaker 6 (24:28):
But then he kept getting interviewed and kept saying what
a victim he was, and talked a lot about like
how he's never gotten his due even though he like
has so much money, and like a ranch where he
like films everything and then claimed that like the Violence
Against Women Act and the Missy murdered Indigenous Relatives, legislation
was passed because of him, and you're taking.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Credit for this, And so that's when like a lot
of people just got straight up mad. It was beyond
a joke at that point. It was like, dude, what
the heck are you talking about? Like maybe your hat's
too tight, bro, but like, you gotta freaking what are
you doing.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Unfortunately, after two seasons, NBC canceled Rutherford Falls. It made
me so upset that like the storyline of the rom
com brewed and then it ended. I'm like, I know,
this is like my so called life all over again.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Just no one makes TV because it's fair, you know.
So it's not like, in a perfect world would be
on for like ten seasons. But yeah, it's a venner
for sure.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Even though we remain largely unscene and there's still little
data on what we consume, we are still able to
influence change with our stories. If we can get people
in the positions you're in, I think it only creates
good content. It sucks that it got canceled after Rutherford
Falls ended did you kind of get an idea of
why or did they explain to you any of that.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
We premiered during COVID and Peacock with such a brand
new network. Peacock as a platform was supposed to launch
off of the Olympics to get subscribers, and then there
was like barely an Olympics because of COVID, and so
really they had like a kind of false start, and
we were like one of the first shows to come
out on the platform, and so even if like the
numbers were maybe not what they had hoped for, it's
(26:12):
not like there was like a bunch of other shows
that were thriving, Like literally we were canceled in a
few months later, I think poker Face came out and
Peacocks started to kind of click, I think a little
bit more for viewers, it would have been really nice
to kind of have that runway of like Dark Ones
and Red Dogs and then our show came out and
like people were like primed, you know, whereas like we
were first. There's a lot of kind of complications that
(26:34):
come with that of having to kind of navigate those
waters and stuff. Road Running Water, who was an incredible
producer and was director of the Native program at sentence
from Many Years talks a lot about each platform sees
me not as I am. So he was like, on Amazon,
I am a black woman based on what I watch.
He's like, I'm probably like upper middle class Latino. On Netflix,
(26:56):
probably like an Asian woman on this channel where I
watch Korean dramas and things. I don't exist as like
a demographic in these spaces because there aren't enough like
data points to point to me. So we don't have
the numbers where we can like move content or dictate
what gets picked up at what doesn't. In the same way,
Native people are kind of the deciding vote in a
(27:19):
lot of swing states for like the actual like political elections.
Like because we're in Montana, because we're in New Mexico,
because we're in Arizona, because we're in Colorado, we actually
like tip the scales. So I think that based on
where we are, we actually do have an audience power
and we have some pull, and so I think that's
going to translate in my mind to like other arenas.
(27:40):
Like there was a really incredible data point that I
think Nielsen released after res Dogs came out that you
saw Wulu subscriptions go up, like in Oklahoma, in Arizona,
in New Mexico, Dark Ones was on, like it was
a huge premiere for AMC. AMC Plus is like a
small network. In these smaller platforms, something hitting you actually
(28:02):
have like a high hit rate, and so I do
think the algorithm it all is getting better. I think
what's harder is promoting to us. You have to be
really strategic about what you're doing. It's different than a
show about six white gals on the town, you know,
like that can kind of be sort of advertised out
to everyone, and you really have to be very strategic.
(28:23):
I think in the promotion. I remember the first season
of Insecure, Ray Like went to HBCUs like went specifically
to those places to promote her show and was like,
we have to go into community and find these people
to make sure they know our show exists. That's what
I really would love to do. Go to like travel colleges,
go to specific places and like have screenings and specific
places to make sure people know we exist. One of
(28:45):
the things we had to explain to like Peacock Marketing
was like we're still on Facebook, where like Indians never
left Facebook for a lot of like marketing teams. Facebook
is like a dead platform. They won't create content, not
for Indian country, but not for any country. Any country
that's where you go to like see your stuff. So
we had to find ways to make interroads at Facebook
because we were like, this is where the audiences. What
(29:07):
helped was like having like an organization like Illuminative, like
explain that to them and create content specifically for those platforms.
It was really hard to explain like what Peacock was
to people, and then on top of that, be like
and there's this Native American sitcom. People are like what, Like,
there's so many whats to those sentences.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Although the show did not enjoy a long life, Sarah
believes it will make the process easier for future shows.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
We were technically like the first Native American sitcom in
the United States. I was technically the first native showrunner.
And at the time, there was no res Dogs, there
was no Dark Winds, like, none of that stuff had
come out. So people weren't really comfortable with the concept
of this. Everyone was really distrusting of like what is this,
Like what are you doing? We were sort of first
on the beach, you know, of that stuff, and we
had to kind of be like, I swear it's going
(29:54):
to be good because like it never is. So like
we never blamed anyone for being suspicious because I was like, yeah,
of course you would, Like how could you not? The
pump has been primed a little bit now, and I
think the next person to do this is going to
have it easier time because of what we did.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Sierra is aware that most Native talent is still underrepresented
and is working hard to open more doors.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
I will say, like I'm trying to get everybody in,
Like I feel like I'm like I'm I do feel
that responsibility in the best way. I All I can
do is what I'm good at, you know what I mean,
And I'm not good at everything. So like this comedy
silly version of me is like the best version of me.
But I feel like that's why it's so important I
have so many different Native people come in and tell
their stories. It's because it's it's everyone gets to do
(30:36):
what they're great at, you know, and that should be
the goal, not just to make the stories that they
want us to make. But like what's so great about
Red Eggs and Rutherford is like we're getting to make
the things we've always been dying to make and I
think there's something really beautiful about that.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
This episode of Burn Stage, Burn Bridges was written and
produced by myself along with Max Williams and Dylan Fagan.
Additional thanks to the Next Program Special thanks to our
guests Sierra Teller Ornellis. Check out some of her work
on shows like Happy Endings, Superstore, and of course, Rutherford Falls.
(31:18):
Remember to listen and subscribe. New episodes come out every Wednesday.
Thank you for listening.
Hey, everyone, before the episode starts, be sure to subscribe
and rate the show. If you're enjoying it, thanks for listening.
When you see Native people in film and television, we're
usually just one note characters written by people who aren't Native.
This is burn Sage Burn Bridges. I'm your host, Nicole Garcia.
(00:31):
I'm Navajo Dine from Gallup, New Mexico. My clan is
the Ute people, and I'm born for the Mexican people.
My maternal grandfather is of the Mountain Cove people, and
my paternal grandfather is from Mexico. Native people have always
been storytellers. It's how we share knowledge and kept our
culture alive. So if you're telling stories today, you're carrying
(00:53):
on what your ancestors have always done.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
I just really want Native people to watch the show
and make stuff, you know, and be inspired to make
whatever their art they're making. That to me is like
the most important thing.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
This is a groundbreaking creative force who is reshaping the
television landscape in a way that's long overdue.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Hey, Sierra Alisi in chef have ahead Inchlansha ch addition. Elli.
My name is Cierra Taller and ellis I'm a member
of the Nava Nation. I'm Edgewater clan born for the
Mexican clan Edgewater.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Where are they from?
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Uh, My family is from Newcombe, New Mexico, So from
like the four corner area of the New Mexico side
near two Gray Hills. That's where my my grandma's side's from.
And then my grandpa Sam Teller, who was Juahaglini. He
was all water flowing together. His people were from.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
White Rock Sierra. Is a storyteller and comes from a
long line of storytellers.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
When our people were interned at Bosca Redondo after the
long walk, we were forced into internment in a in
a fort. It was like a messed up Ellis Island.
They gave us all Christian names and census numbers basically
to monitorists. That's because I believe that means like I'm
related to them. And then then so many like Banali's
and things like that, because a lot of that meant
(02:13):
like certain relations and stuff. But they apparently asked my
great great grandfather what he did for a living, and
he explained that he was a storyteller. He's a keeper
of the stories of our people. And so that's why
his last name is teller, And that's why my middle
name is Teller, because my mom wanted to make sure
her maiden name was put in our names. And then
my great grandfather was born in a wagon on the
(02:35):
way back when they were able to return, and so
that was like a huge story in our family. I
was just like perseverance that anytime you know, you felt
like you couldn't do something, your mom would be like,
your great grandpa was born in a wagon on the
way back.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
And then of course he become a storyteller.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Yeah, I'm a TV writer. I was a showrunner of
a show called Rutherford Falls that aired for two seasons
on Peacock. It was a huge honor to become a
television writer because it does feel oddly like very traditional.
It feels like Bob Dylan going electric that this is
something we've been doing for hundreds of years. And so yeah,
I like always want to stay humble, but like you
(03:11):
carry with you a sense of like purpose and confidence
because like you know, you've been doing it a lot
longer than the other people sometimes that are in the
room with you, because there's like this legacy in your family.
It is cool, Like my family has always just loved
a good story, like we love gossip. We're such bad gossips,
and we do collect stories like we will we will
(03:32):
kind of best story sort of wins, and any family
gathering it always ends up in us like holding court
and like telling, you know, telling tales from when you're
like a little kid to like when you're very old.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Growing up urban, she was influenced by a wide range
of characters that shaped her unique voice.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
I grew up in this place called Christopher City when
I lived in Tucson, So my dad was going to
college when I was between like five and ten. When
we lived at this place, that was kind of like
a dorm opportunity for families, so it was most of
like international families and then like single moms. That was
sort of the demo that I was raised with was
people from other countries and then just like single moms
(04:11):
figuring it out, And those were sort of my my
heroes growing up. My mom is a master na tapestry weaver.
There's like always these random rugs that just find their
way to like the British Museum or like you know
these like random places and you're like, who would have guessed?
You know? When I was weaving that in my like
crappy apartment, like it would end up, you know, at
the Smithsonian.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
I met Sierra just before she moved to LA during
a fellowship program for aspiring film and television creators.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
It was such a wild experience because like, I moved
to LA in twenty ten after we met at that
IA fellowship, and then just decided for like a year
to say yes to any invitation because I was definitely
afraid of speaking a public. I was so afraid of
like just my own shadow at that time. But I
was like, I'm here, I'm in La. I'm going to
make the most of this. Who knows how long it'll last,
(05:00):
And so I was like, I'll just say yes to
anything offered to me.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Saying yes provided an opportunity for her to tell an
embarrassing story, and I.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Laughed so hard that I relieved sixty four ounces of
pepsi all over Ahmed's forcell And it was like minutes.
I mean it was so long. I went on a journey.
It went from like shock to like that ecstasy of
how good it philosophy, to like shame, and then like
(05:31):
back to the ecstasy.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
This embarrassing story helped start her television career. When we
first met, you were in the program with me and
Santa Fe, and then you got into a program and
you started with happy endings. I remember watching that show
and being like, Wow, this is hilarious, Like this is
so funny, and of course all the other stuff you've done,
but I always found it funny with happy endings. The
(05:56):
Dave character finding out he was Navajo one six Saint Navaja.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
This time of year is always a little bittersweet for me. Well,
Thanksgiving the real reminder of my people's hardships as an
American living with one sixteenth Navahoism. I'm going to use
this as an opportunity to educate, perhaps enlighten all you
white people, and throw an authentic Thanksgiving.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Oh my god, it's so funny. And then he starts
like wearing like, you know.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Free crazy fringe jackets.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
If I don't show up with a sack of clams,
I'm gonna look like a real dope.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
I do like that jacket.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
This jacket for some clams. I mean, this thing is choice.
Plus it's thirty degrees outside. You're trying to trick me
into a very uneven trade. This story of my people,
white people you who focus on fifteen sixteenths of a man.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
That was funny because like we were trying to come
up with a story like a small seat runner and
he was the last character left and they were asking
me to go, like Sara, do people like find out
they're like Native American and like take it, take it
too far? And I was like, yeah, that's not a
crazy story. And then they were like, well he should
be like one sixteenth you know, and there was a
different tribe. I was like, no, he should want sixteenth
(07:07):
Navajo because like, no one is one sixteenth Napa ho
Like it's you're not legally You're like, it's like it's
like a crazy thing to claim. I didn't write that episode,
but I was able to pitch on it a bunch
and be on set and everything.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
It's for sure your joke though, I mean.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
A lot of couple of them work, couple of them work,
but they like they jumped on it. Like that's what's
so great about a writer's room. Was like once you
explain the situation, like all these people will jump on
it and pitch their jokes and stuff and like and
he played it so great, like he did that thing
of like that white guy taking something too far and
being like way too excited about something, and it was
so funny. But it's crazy now because like now they're everywhere.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Because all the like tests and stuff that you can see.
So crazy, No, I know, that was so fun to watch,
and of course, like you're doing all the other shows
and then finally transitioning from just a writer to a showrunner,
like that is insane. Now you're like the boss. How
how is that? How is that transition?
Speaker 2 (08:01):
I mean I loved it. I loved being the boss.
I've always like whenever I was a kid and like
we play house, I was always the mom. Like even
if I wanted to be a different character, they'd be like,
you're the mom. I'm like, all right, I guess I
have the mom. Like I've always been like super maternal.
So like, I really loved that room of getting to
staff like native writers and non native writers that I'd
worked with for many years and in Hollywood and kind
(08:22):
of having us all commune together and workshop these ideas
and come together with like all these sort of fun,
exciting ideas for the show. And then also to really
like bring in all these like native artists that I'd
worked with for many years. The language I speak is
is of commerce. Like all of the artists on our
show got paid, Like there was no like native art
that we didn't buy or pay a licensing fee for.
(08:44):
Like there were a lot of Native artists that were like, wow,
I've been on other TV shows and we get paid
in like exposure, you know. But I was like, no,
like every native artist gets paid on the show. I
was like, I'm not messing around with that. And we
wanted so badly to, like I think, to just like
champion those artists and like not take advantage. We had
an amazing Native artist I named Nali Ball season two
(09:07):
of Brother Heard, and she was Jana sh Meeting, who
plays the lead on that show, was her babysitter, and
she was like, I would love to put her in
the show for doing before like showcasing a native artist.
And we were able to find like six or seven
pieces of hers from like different collections to bring in
make our own little mini exhibit as a set. And
when she showed up to set for her cameo, Natalie
(09:28):
was like, this is nicer than some of the shows
I've had. She was like, this is so cool. She's
like I've never had this any pieces, like in a
room together. One of our actors, Gonnedy o'horn, loved her clothes.
She was like, I never get to wear like camel
hair coats, like beautiful sweaters. She's like, I always have
to wear like, you know, kind of red ass stuff
and look also like native jewelry, and like how we
(09:50):
actually dressed with other stuff that's like a mixture of
you know, the native designers and things I always grew
up loving, like ner Ephron and like rom coms where
you had these sort of plucky women who were trying
to figure it out and they were going to these
beautiful locations and wearing these beautiful clothes. And our native
writers who were from the Northeast were also like, this
is how I grew up, this is what my life
(10:11):
was like. So it didn't feel like it was like
a fantasy necessarily, but it was also just something you
never get to see. It was just a really fun
experience to get to bring that specificity, but also like
in that world that I always loved, which is that
kind of rom calm world.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
I was like watching it and of course all the
social media and stuff, and I thought it was just
like a huge celebration of not only the show being
you know you a native showrunner and then native writers,
and then of course like the content of the show
having like food trucks with like native food. I was like, Wow,
they're really like going for it.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
We were like we have to be on point, like
everything has to be cool, like please just like make
us look cool, make us look good. Like any director
we had, native or non native, I was like, we
we have to have jokes, we have to like, we
have to look good, we have to like win because
like we never get this. So when it was like
you know, Dallas gold Tooth character falling in love with
(11:17):
Jenna's character, it's the most romantic, you know. Taza Shavis,
who was one of our native directors, she was like,
I want a sweeping crane shot. I want like because
it's I want the Pixies to play you know when
they kiss. Because it was like it's like we never
get this, you know, we want like the best version
of this stuff because we we always have to compromise
and we always have to like skim and it's like
(11:38):
not not today.
Speaker 4 (11:39):
You know.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
It was sort of our mantra, like let's just put
it all out there and see what happened.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Yeah, the characters were amazing. I mean just Jenna did
so well. You never see anybody like her as a lead,
you know.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
We never get that Native women never get that. Never
stuff made by Native people.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Right right, they're like recast that doesn't right.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Yeah, I mean, god bless like trying when we were passing,
you know, for the show. I mean, like the industry
has rewarded it specific type of Native actor. And there's
so many great Native actors out there. So this is
no dis on Native actors, but like it is hard
to find native woman who's not like a boat show model,
you know, who's not this like kind of very specific
looking type of person. And so just to find Jana
(12:21):
and to see her an average sized woman who was
incredibly funny, incredibly talented, you totally buy. You know, the
chemistry she had with Dustin Ama Dallas, like can do
it all, truly can make you laugh and cry and
fall in love. Like it was such a great opportunity
to like have her just shine and she'd really never
done anything before that, and didn't see her as bev
(12:41):
like to see her as somebody completely different reservation.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Does and does that very real too, so real, Like
you just know that girl, I am that girl.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Oh, I'm like, but I think I'm the nerd. I
can't even pretend to be cooled, bev, I'm the nerd.
I'm breaking. But like I think, like it was just
such a great opportunity, and that was what was fun about,
you know, Reservation Dogs versus our show, was that, like
we had a lot of the same people playing wildly
different characters. Like you really got to see the range
of what these actors could do because there were multiple
(13:10):
opportunities to be on different shows.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
And I really was not expecting to like certain characters
that I absolutely love, like the Terry character. I was like, oh,
I know this man, oh you know, and then like
just his whole story. I just fell in love with
the guy, like just that whole you know, trying to hustle,
but also like I'm doing this to like you know, yeah,
(13:33):
I just thought that whole character was great. It was
very surprising. I wasn't expecting that at all and not
expecting to like him so much.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Thank you so much. I feel like so much of
that is Michael Grays, Like he is just such a lovable,
wonderful human being. That you want to write for all
the time. But I also think like that's native writers.
Like I think almost shows the native casino owner is
a one note and is pretty pretty flat, you know,
and evil and just kind of mustache towarly, even though
Indians kicker mustaches. There's an episode where he wants his daughter,
(14:03):
who's doing incredible beat work, to make money off of
it and sell it. And because he came from this
like hustle culture of like you had to defend yourself,
and the only language people understand his money. And that
came from me and Jana in the room because I'm
like an Indian market baby, and she'd be making these incredible,
beautiful pieces and she's like, I'm just gonna give this
away and I was like, what are you doing? What's
like four hundred dollars? Like I was like gaming out,
(14:24):
like if you make six of those weak and liked,
and she's like, yeah, I don't want to do that.
That's like not why I do it, and like it
just didn't make any sense to me. It was like
a really funny like debate back and forth, and someone
was like, I think this is an episode you're terry
and they're like who would be the other who would
be the jan in the situation? And there we're like, oh,
you should have a daughter, like you know, and then
we like game that out and stuff. And then the
story of him getting taken advantage of at the end,
(14:47):
that's based on something that happened to me as a
kid when I was selling made a jewelry as a kid,
this like trader took advantage of me and like kept
a bunch of money of mine and my mom had
to have a huge fight with him and it was crazy.
And I told that story in the room and they
were like that should be his origin story. They're like,
that should be what happened to him. Harry, I'm Harry.
(15:08):
I'm like, I'm Reagan, Anam Nathan, like I am all
of those characters. It is. It's crazy that way, but yeah,
I am kind of the secret Terry.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
The first season was great, and then the second season
just took off, like it felt like you guys were
so more loose with the comedy and like looking into
like us really and I that's probably so freaking heartbreaking
when like I know, it.
Speaker 5 (15:32):
Was like like second seasons, you like, you know what
everyone can do, You like know where you want to go,
you feel so like and that really was like I
think the direction of the show would have gone into
a sort of that kind of parks and rec like
hangout show of people just living their lives and having problems,
and it was.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
It was such a fun show. It's my like life's
regret that I don't get to write for those characters
because I love them. I really did.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
When you worked on like other shows, you said you
always had to explain yourself. You always had to like
be the one to be like this is how it goes,
or you know, explaining like your card basically.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Yeah, Like sometimes it was it was like people wanted
to know things and had questions like happy endings, like
you know, for the for the Dave story or something.
Sometimes it would just be your background. It came up
a lot at Superstore when I wrote on that show,
because I had so many families who members who worked
at Target and worked at Walmart and stuff, and like
the people who created that show weren't like people who
(16:24):
shopped at Walmart. So sometimes like I would have to
come with like details from my life and be like
that's not how people do that, Like that's not what
happens at Walmart or like that's not always you know,
the sort of thing, and so like so like that
oddly was like my superpower on that show was that
I'd come from a lot of people who worked those
types of jobs and who shopped there and who knew
Walmart is like those big box stores is like the
(16:47):
community center, you know where we would say like this
is where people drop off their kids, or this is
where people like we're teenagers go to hang after school
and that sort of thing. And so we were able
to kind of create stories. But it was nice because
Superstore was one of the few one of the first
shows where my cousins or my my cousin's kids would
be like, we watched Superstore, we watched your show because
like they had worked at those stores and like felt
(17:10):
like they were There was a good, real kinship to
watching that show, which was great.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
What was the difference between being and like the more
predominantly non native writing circles as opposed to like more
predominantly native circles of writing.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
I think like we had five or six Native writers
the first year, and like samount always had half or
a little more than half. There was no Indians one
oh one. There was no like having to explain stuff
to people, like the non native writers just had to
like catch up, and then I didn't have to do
everything where like like like this like the second episode
(17:43):
was my episode and I had pre written it, and
they were like, well, before this could happen. One of
the native writers was like, they'd have to go to
council first and like get counsel on board. They couldn't
just like go and do this. And I was like,
oh shit, you're right. They would have to go to council.
And then like of course, like the non nat wort's like,
what's counseling, They're like okay, like explaining it to them
and they're like, oh, that's a great episode. So it
was fun to see like Native people pitching from their
(18:06):
lives and then like seasoned comedy writers pitching and so
excited to see a new story, like so excited to
have like a new story to pitch on, and then
the Native writers pitching their comedy on top of that,
and it was like it was like this really great,
Like we were decorating a cake together and everybody was
amazing stuff on it, and it was really everyone was
like feeding off of each other, and the Native writers
were learning like because some of them had never worked
(18:28):
in TV before, like structure and and like all this
stuff from the non Native writers, and the non Native
writers were learning about like you know what we were about.
But also like a writer who was black on our
show was like, oh, we have that too, Like we
do that too. Like the Latino writer on our show
was like, oh we have that like or in the
gig community, like that is totally something we deal with.
It really was like this weird like love fest. And
(18:49):
there were times when, like people people where there was debate,
and even within the Native writers there was debate because
we're not all the same people, right, We're not a monolith.
So we were all from different regions. Some of us
were from the Reds, some of us weren't. But what
was great was like if there was a topic that
we were kind of arguing about, then the room would
be like, oh, this is an episode like if the
Native writers are debating on something, we should chase that
(19:12):
or we should look at that or talk about that.
When you see like scenes with like different Native actors
having conversations and debating what sep it's because like we
in the room were doing that, and that was really cool,
Like that was a really fun ability to have like
all these native voices in a room and then to
be able to dramatize that because you had a show
with so many native actors, and then you had like
(19:32):
a native director who could like usher that through and
didn't minimize certain things, and then you had a native
composers could like write music to back that up.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
I also wanted to ask you about that whole yellow
Stone tailor sharing, like the whole You're getting thrown in
will Brotherford Fall is getting thrown in?
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Forever heard of that show?
Speaker 1 (20:07):
That show, Well, you've done a lot of damage to them.
Apparently apparently these rich people couldn't get their Emmys because
you know, you made a mock show of their show.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
My World's is better than an Emmy. My world's greatest
achievement was keeping.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
How do you like that too?
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Oh? I run on spite?
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Yeah for sure, But that was so funny and like
how did that even equate? I didn't get it. I'm like, why, why.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Is that no idea for me? The Adirondack, you know,
was just like our response to native representation, like how
it feels to sort of be depicted and not have
any ownership over what's being said about you and having
to like kind of pay a fee for something that
you had no control over. You're just trying to figure
out how to combat it. Really, So when we did
(20:56):
our first season of Rutherford Falls, you know a lot
of the questions we got from the press was about
representation and then like what our thoughts were and what
our thoughts were on these things and stuff, and we
were specific about the region and making sure all the
art was accurate and making sure all of the like
the language was accurate and all these things and these
little details and making sure there were like native designers
(21:17):
and that you know, we were very big on like
most things came from the Northeast, and then like clothes
and things were fine, but like there was very little
turquoise on our show. There was very little stuff that
you wouldn't find in like the Northeast because that's where
it was set. And we would always kind of get
frustrated with other shows that featured native people where it
didn't feel like they did any of that research or
(21:37):
like had any of those problems and they just kind
of did whatever, and we would be like, man, if
we were on you know, X y Z show, like
we wouldn't be putting in all this work right now.
This is just like a room joke. And then we
were talking about how how much like Indians love Yellowstone,
like totally the most embarrassing thing about that show is
how much Indians love that show and were Yellowstone, our
(22:00):
cousins would be so impressed.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
You know, they're like, you work on what not yellow Stone?
Speaker 2 (22:05):
What is that? I don't have that channel Yellowstone? We
were on the same platform, like at the time, Yellowstone
was on Pea Fact, and so we were saying like, oh,
there should be a show that like all their parents
loved to watch, And so we just kept name dropping
the show at Arondack season three and everyone's saying like,
oh yeah, like at around Back, you know. And I
remember like on Insecure, they had like a show that
(22:25):
was sort of like a parody like a Shonda Rhime
show that.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Everyone followed, Oh yeah, I remember that called.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Dou North And that was a room bit between a
white writer and a black writer and Insecure where they
were saying like, oh, they would have they would be
these characters on a Shonda show called do North or
I don't if it's a shan show, but like on
a drama called Do North, and it's like they would reenact,
you know, it was like a room bit, but then
they turned it into a show, and so I was like,
when we were pitching ideas for season two, I was like,
(22:53):
I want Reagan and Terry to be cultural consultants on
a bad drama called it And we had to come
up with a name, and someone pitched at Irondack and
we were like, in everyone's parents should love that show,
like Terry should love that show, like all the older
natives should love the show. And so then we created
this like fake drama and it was so funny because
(23:14):
that week all of our costumes and makeup and props
people had the easiest time. They're like, this is the
easiest week we've ever had because we could just go
to like the Paramount props department and pull all this
random stuff because we don't have to follow any of
the rules that we normally have, Like we could just
like make it all a hodgepodge and like make it
some weird like craft basket for Michael's.
Speaker 5 (23:35):
So we did it.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
We thought it was so funny and then there was
like this article from Deadline, which is like a big
trades magazine that said, like, you know, why is Taylor
Sheridan getting snubbed by the Academy, Like why didn't he
get his Emmy nominations? His shows are more popular than
all these other shows, and so they were like it
didn't help that, Like they were skewered on Brutherford Falls
(23:58):
with the show Adirondack, and we were like, what you're
blaming us, Like you're blaming the Indians, Like it's our
fault thing against the Emmy nominations, Like that show is
so much much money and like so much press and
so much everything. We have nothing. We could barely get
a billboard, like are you kidding me? We posted about it,
me and Jana and the other Native folks on the show,
and then within like a couple hours, there were all
(24:20):
these Native memes, like Native Twitter took it over instead
of doing all these memes of us ruining Sheridan's life
all this stuff thing.
Speaker 6 (24:28):
But then he kept getting interviewed and kept saying what
a victim he was, and talked a lot about like
how he's never gotten his due even though he like
has so much money, and like a ranch where he
like films everything and then claimed that like the Violence
Against Women Act and the Missy murdered Indigenous Relatives, legislation
was passed because of him, and you're taking.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Credit for this, And so that's when like a lot
of people just got straight up mad. It was beyond
a joke at that point. It was like, dude, what
the heck are you talking about? Like maybe your hat's
too tight, bro, but like, you gotta freaking what are
you doing.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Unfortunately, after two seasons, NBC canceled Rutherford Falls. It made
me so upset that like the storyline of the rom
com brewed and then it ended. I'm like, I know,
this is like my so called life all over again.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Just no one makes TV because it's fair, you know.
So it's not like, in a perfect world would be
on for like ten seasons. But yeah, it's a venner
for sure.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Even though we remain largely unscene and there's still little
data on what we consume, we are still able to
influence change with our stories. If we can get people
in the positions you're in, I think it only creates
good content. It sucks that it got canceled after Rutherford
Falls ended did you kind of get an idea of
why or did they explain to you any of that.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
We premiered during COVID and Peacock with such a brand
new network. Peacock as a platform was supposed to launch
off of the Olympics to get subscribers, and then there
was like barely an Olympics because of COVID, and so
really they had like a kind of false start, and
we were like one of the first shows to come
out on the platform, and so even if like the
numbers were maybe not what they had hoped for, it's
(26:12):
not like there was like a bunch of other shows
that were thriving, Like literally we were canceled in a
few months later, I think poker Face came out and
Peacocks started to kind of click, I think a little
bit more for viewers, it would have been really nice
to kind of have that runway of like Dark Ones
and Red Dogs and then our show came out and
like people were like primed, you know, whereas like we
were first. There's a lot of kind of complications that
(26:34):
come with that of having to kind of navigate those
waters and stuff. Road Running Water, who was an incredible
producer and was director of the Native program at sentence
from Many Years talks a lot about each platform sees
me not as I am. So he was like, on Amazon,
I am a black woman based on what I watch.
He's like, I'm probably like upper middle class Latino. On Netflix,
(26:56):
probably like an Asian woman on this channel where I
watch Korean dramas and things. I don't exist as like
a demographic in these spaces because there aren't enough like
data points to point to me. So we don't have
the numbers where we can like move content or dictate
what gets picked up at what doesn't. In the same way,
Native people are kind of the deciding vote in a
(27:19):
lot of swing states for like the actual like political elections.
Like because we're in Montana, because we're in New Mexico,
because we're in Arizona, because we're in Colorado, we actually
like tip the scales. So I think that based on
where we are, we actually do have an audience power
and we have some pull, and so I think that's
going to translate in my mind to like other arenas.
(27:40):
Like there was a really incredible data point that I
think Nielsen released after res Dogs came out that you
saw Wulu subscriptions go up, like in Oklahoma, in Arizona,
in New Mexico, Dark Ones was on, like it was
a huge premiere for AMC. AMC Plus is like a
small network. In these smaller platforms, something hitting you actually
(28:02):
have like a high hit rate, and so I do
think the algorithm it all is getting better. I think
what's harder is promoting to us. You have to be
really strategic about what you're doing. It's different than a
show about six white gals on the town, you know,
like that can kind of be sort of advertised out
to everyone, and you really have to be very strategic.
(28:23):
I think in the promotion. I remember the first season
of Insecure, Ray Like went to HBCUs like went specifically
to those places to promote her show and was like,
we have to go into community and find these people
to make sure they know our show exists. That's what
I really would love to do. Go to like travel colleges,
go to specific places and like have screenings and specific
places to make sure people know we exist. One of
(28:45):
the things we had to explain to like Peacock Marketing
was like we're still on Facebook, where like Indians never
left Facebook for a lot of like marketing teams. Facebook
is like a dead platform. They won't create content, not
for Indian country, but not for any country. Any country
that's where you go to like see your stuff. So
we had to find ways to make interroads at Facebook
because we were like, this is where the audiences. What
(29:07):
helped was like having like an organization like Illuminative, like
explain that to them and create content specifically for those platforms.
It was really hard to explain like what Peacock was
to people, and then on top of that, be like
and there's this Native American sitcom. People are like what, Like,
there's so many whats to those sentences.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Although the show did not enjoy a long life, Sarah
believes it will make the process easier for future shows.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
We were technically like the first Native American sitcom in
the United States. I was technically the first native showrunner.
And at the time, there was no res Dogs, there
was no Dark Winds, like, none of that stuff had
come out. So people weren't really comfortable with the concept
of this. Everyone was really distrusting of like what is this,
Like what are you doing? We were sort of first
on the beach, you know, of that stuff, and we
had to kind of be like, I swear it's going
(29:54):
to be good because like it never is. So like
we never blamed anyone for being suspicious because I was like, yeah,
of course you would, Like how could you not? The
pump has been primed a little bit now, and I
think the next person to do this is going to
have it easier time because of what we did.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Sierra is aware that most Native talent is still underrepresented
and is working hard to open more doors.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
I will say, like I'm trying to get everybody in,
Like I feel like I'm like I'm I do feel
that responsibility in the best way. I All I can
do is what I'm good at, you know what I mean,
And I'm not good at everything. So like this comedy
silly version of me is like the best version of me.
But I feel like that's why it's so important I
have so many different Native people come in and tell
their stories. It's because it's it's everyone gets to do
(30:36):
what they're great at, you know, and that should be
the goal, not just to make the stories that they
want us to make. But like what's so great about
Red Eggs and Rutherford is like we're getting to make
the things we've always been dying to make and I
think there's something really beautiful about that.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
This episode of Burn Stage, Burn Bridges was written and
produced by myself along with Max Williams and Dylan Fagan.
Additional thanks to the Next Program Special thanks to our
guests Sierra Teller Ornellis. Check out some of her work
on shows like Happy Endings, Superstore, and of course, Rutherford Falls.
(31:18):
Remember to listen and subscribe. New episodes come out every Wednesday.
Thank you for listening.
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