June 26, 2024 • 38 mins
A lawsuit meant Zoe Dunning was the only LGBTQ+ person allowed in the miltiary for 13 years. Compliant at first, she would tranform into one of the most vocal opponents against the military's ban on gays. She would eventually stand next to President Obama as he abolished the ban for good.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
But We Loved is a production of iHeart Podcasts and
the Outspoken podcast Network.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
And then I got called in and they sat me
down and they just said, we've discovered evidence that leads
us to believe that you may be homosexual. What do
you have to say to that? And I said, it's
not true. Then they asked me to name men that
I had dated as some sort of evidence or proof
that I wasn't homosexual. My sponsor at the navel kme
(00:29):
Me was my tennis coach, and she was a lesbian
and she had a gay roommate, and I gave them
his name. It was enough for me to lie about
myself to investigators and to people to protect my own career.
I hated the idea that my friends and family were
being forced to lie on my behalf.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
As a gay kid, growing up religious and in the South,
I thought being gay was the worst thing I could
ever be. Now, as a journalist, I'm trying to unlearn
that by seeking out our history, and what I've found
are people and stories full of courage, perseverance, and love.
(01:13):
In this episode, we'll learn about the centuries old ban
against homosexuality in the US military. We'll hear how Zoe
Dunning fought to end that ban, and we'll learn how
Zoe's fight to end the ban made her one of
the only openly gay service members in the United States
Armed Forces for years. For My Heart podcast, I'm Jordan
(01:37):
and Solves and this is what we loved. I think
(02:06):
for so many queer people, the first time we actually
stand up for ourselves is when we come out, when
we tell the people in our life, I can't betray
myself anymore so that you can feel comfortable for me.
That was coming out to my family. I was scared, terrified.
(02:28):
Actually I didn't want to be rejected, but I was
also tired of living a double life. I mustered up
every ounce of courage I could possibly find and just
came out, sort of like ripping off a band aid.
In my small world, I didn't know anyone who had
(02:49):
stood up for themselves in that way. My next guest,
Zoe Dunning, has a story I wish I knew when
I was coming out. There's this fearless quality to her.
She was a lesbian in the military during her time
when queer people were banned from serving openly, and she
stood up for herself and many other queer service members
(03:13):
by coming out in defiance. How did she gain that confidence?
It was a long journey of self discovery that began
in nineteen eighty one when she got into the highly
prestigious United States Naval Academy in Annapolis, Maryland. At that point,
she didn't even know she was a lesbian yet. But
(03:34):
it was there, at seventeen years old, that Zoe began
a military career that would change American history.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
I showed up not really knowing what I'd gotten myself into.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
I remember.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Learning very early that the key to success at the
Naval Academy was to not be known, which was impossible
to do as a woman because in my entering class,
only one hundred of us were women. So you immediately
stand out, and you're in.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
A fish bowl.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
So everything you do, everything you say, is noticed. And
there were a lot of subliminal and not so subliminal
messages to us that you don't belong here, and that
permeated the entire culture of the organization. At this time
in history. The military's policy was not only can you
(04:30):
not be gay or lesbian or in heaven forbid, transgender,
but you are so threatening that we are going to
spend lots and lots of money to seek you out
and investigate you and discharge you. We will hunt you down,
following people around, intercepting male confiscating diaries, listening in on
(04:52):
phone calls.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Wow, well, before we get to that, Zoe, what did
you actually like about the naval account of.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
One of the things I really loved about being there
was the sense of being part of something bigger than myself.
I was part of this institution, this leadership development, and
it felt proud to be part of that tradition, to
be part of that organization.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
The other thing I.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Really liked about it was my sports teams, so I
immediately joined the basketball team when I was a freshman.
My mom died that September, and the basketball team kind
of became my family. They really reached out and embraced
me in a way of giving me a sense of belonging,
and it just felt very much like home. When I
(05:37):
was with my teammates, I felt very safe with them.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
So now tell me a little bit about how you're
discovering your sexuality and making friends at the same time.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
On the basketball team, we had to come back over
Christmas break my freshman year, so we stayed at the
home of the officer representative for our team, and I
noticed a couple of the women were particularly affectionate and
attentive to one another, and I wasn't really sure what
to make of that. It didn't seem to really bother me.
(06:08):
It intrigued me a little bit, and I wasn't sure
whether I'm interpreting this behavior correctly or not. And my
friend Connie was one of them, and the head manager
had a little bit too much to drink one night,
her lips got a little loose with a little Jack Daniels,
and she started asking me, like.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
What do you think of Connie and that gal?
Speaker 2 (06:29):
She said, well, don't you think there's a little weird
like how affectionate they are with each other? And I said, no,
that's fine by me. And she was testing me out
just to see what my reaction was, and once I
expressed that I didn't really care that much, or that
I wasn't freaked out by it or grossed out by it,
(06:50):
she proceeded to come out to me as lesbian herself,
and then she proceeded to tell me about every other
lesbian on the basketball team and all the dynamics of
who whom and you know where there were riffs between
you know, two players who had dated but now had
broken up. And I got the whole lowdown, and I
remember at the time feeling two very distinct feelings. The
(07:12):
one feeling was a sense of closeness and feeling honored
that she trusted me to share this information because I
knew immediately that this information was very dangerous. And then
I immediately felt fear for the fact that I knew
this information, because I felt fear for my friends and
(07:33):
you know, teammates who I knew were going to be
at risk for investigation or discharge. So that coming out
to me entered me into this world of the secret
society of lesbians at Annapolis, or at least on the
basketball team. So she reminded me not to ever tell
anyone or people would lose their scholarships and get kicked out.
(07:53):
She reminded me that if I did get called in
by investigators, that I had the right to remain silent.
She reminded me that if I was called in by investigators,
that I should never ever throw another teammate.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Under the bus or another woman under the bus.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
That we were going to like black arms and keep
our secret together and no one should reveal it. And
so I felt like somewhat like a honored those in
this little secret society, but also scared for them, and
then also a little bit for myself because I didn't
really know about myself at the time. It wasn't until
(08:30):
a couple months later that I finally realized that, Yeah,
actually I am lesbian too.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Yeah, tell me about that. How did you realize that?
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Manager of the basketball team, they decided to get a
bunch of us together who were in town for this training.
We spent the night in this house, and I met
one of these volleyball players who was a classmate of mine,
and I just really became very enamored by her. And
that night that we were there in this home, we
were kind of lying on the floor next to each
other and we started chatting a bit and getting to
(09:00):
know each other, and I asked her a little bit
about her childhood or her time before the academy, and
she shared that she had a really difficult relationship, strained
relationship with her mother, and I asked her a little
bit more about that, and she shared with me that
her mom had made her see a psychiatrist and I
(09:21):
listened a little bit more, and I said, why would
your mom force you to see a psychiatrist? And she said, well,
she didn't agree with my lifestyle, and lifestyle was code
for being gay. But I wasn't sure, and I was
too afraid to ask, because then I was essentially putting
her in a position of coming out to me, because
we have this thing called the honor code, and you
(09:41):
can't like cheat steel. So I didn't ask any further questions,
but I got contextually what she was trying to tell me,
and we ended up kissing. I had my very first
kiss with a girl on the floor of this house,
with or five other women in the room asleep while
(10:04):
we whispered and chatted with each other, and she and
I became girlfriends and then had to hide our relationship
for the remaining three years that we were at the academy.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
What did the kiss feel like?
Speaker 2 (10:18):
It felt like coming home when I kissed her.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
Wow, it really felt.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Like coming home. It felt natural, It felt good. I
felt excited and tingly. I felt scared that what this
meant for me and for us, and what it would
mean for how I would have to, you know, conduct
myself at the academy and that I would have to
hide this. It was exciting and terrifying at the same time.
(10:48):
Imagine like experiencing your first love and knowing immediately that
that could cost you your scholarship.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
I had no backup plan.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
There was no money for college otherwise, so it was
particularly valuable for me to keep that scholarship.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
So you're in a relationship with a woman, you're discovering
your sexuality. Were you able to tell anyone besides your
girlfriend and the basketball team.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
You were very careful who knew, and in general, I
would never let anyone know who I didn't know one
hundred percent was lesbian themselves. I didn't have much exposure
to the gay men at the academy at that point
in time, just pretty much the lesbians on the sports teams.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
That was the only people who knew, the only people
I would admit it to.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
It was almost this weird power dynamic where you never
allowed someone to know that you were gay that was
straight themselves, because there was this fear that they could
turn you in and there's nothing you could do about it.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Well, were some of the hurdles that you would go
through to keep this a secret.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
Oh, gosh.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
When I was at the academy, both my girlfriend and
I dated men to try to cover up really that
we were lesbian. And it was this tricky game that
I had to play where I wanted to be seen
(12:14):
dating a guy to throw off suspicion. So I had
I think, two different boyfriends when I was at the
Academy while I was dating my girlfriend that would go
out on dates with but I didn't want to get
too far physically with them, so I would kiss with them,
I would make out with them, but I didn't want
to do anything more than that, and eventually they would
(12:36):
get grow tired of it and move on. But you
were playing this game all the time to sort of
throw off suspicion. Also, Julie and I were very careful
how often we were seen talking to each other in public,
so we would literally see each other and not talk
with each other because everyone would see us talking together
(12:56):
and that might create suspicion. We were like, you know, eighteeneen,
twenty years old, and we were faced with these moral
and ethical dilemmas of who are you loyal to? What's
the right thing to do in these situations?
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Do you.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Tell the truth or do you lie knowing that the
truth will ridiculously harm someone and end their career for
a reason that has absolutely no bearing on their ability
to do their job.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
It's nineteen eighty five and Zoe Dunning has successfully graduated
without being added. By this point, she and her first
love were assigned to different cities and eventually broke up,
but the band was still taking a toll on her.
She witnessed one of her closest friends from the bass
(14:00):
ketball team get investigated and then kicked out. Knowing that
she could lose her career too, Zoe was in a
constant state of anxiety to repay their scholarships. Naval Academy
graduates are required to serve five years of active duty
after graduation. Zoe's first assignment after graduation was on the
(14:22):
USS Lexington as a supply Corps officer. While on that ship,
she started experiencing harassment due to suspicions that she was
a lesbian.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
The challenge with not being out is that people could
harass you and you couldn't really do anything about it.
So I remember, for example, I was on board ship
and there were three or four or five other women
in the wardroom who were also lesbian. There is a
book on the quarterdeck that has the pictures and names
(14:54):
of every officer on the ship. In that book of
officers the handful of women that they suspected to be lesbian,
and they weren't far off. Someone had an handwritten pen
scribbled Dyke or Lesbo next to our names and our photographs,
including myself. I was like, oh shit, this isn't good.
(15:14):
And then I immediately went to see whether they had
written it next to anyone else's name. And I'm flipping
through the pages and I'm flipping through the pages and
I can't react physically because I'm standing on the quarterdeck.
People are coming on and off the ship. I just
have to look very professional. And when I first saw it,
I just flipped it closed and put it back underneath
the podium.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
To think about it, to think about what I needed to.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Do, and made sure that no one else on the
quarterdeck during my watch looked at it or opened it up.
My mind was racing. I was like, how many people
have seen this already? How long has it been like this?
What do I do do I leave it as is
and pretend it never happened, and I hope it goes away.
Do I take it to the admin officer and demand
(15:56):
that they replace the book? Do I leert the other
women and let them know that their names and faces
have been graffitied with these comments? So I decided that
the thing that's going to draw the least amount of
attention and yet protect us from anyone else seeing this
was to just tear those pages out of the book.
And I did when no one was looking, I know,
(16:18):
quietly tore those pages out of the book. I put
them in my pocket and I left, and I don't
know if I shredded them or took them off the
ship and threw them away. At home, I alerted the
other women that this had happened so that they knew,
and eventually, a couple of weeks later, I noticed that
there was a new book. Someone had noticed the missing pages,
(16:38):
and they'd replaced the book and there was no more
graffiti added to it. That was an example of you're
getting harassed, but you can't report it because if you do,
then you bring more attention to yourself and people will
be like, well, why did someone write dyke next to
your photograph? Instead of the people who did it being
investigated or being punished for it.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
While Zoe was on active duty in the military. The
ban on LGBTQ people meant in depth investigations into whether
they had ever engaged in quote, homosexual conduct. The military
keeps no records of just how much these investigations cost taxpayers,
but from nineteen eighty two to nineteen ninety two, taxpayers
(17:24):
spent five hundred million dollars on the replacements for men
and women who were discharged because of their homosexuality. Zoe
herself had never been at the center of any of
these kinds of investigations until she was transferred to Arlington,
Virginia for a job that required top secret security clearance.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
I show up for my first day with my orders
reporting for duty from my final job on active duty
in the Navy at the Naval Security Station, and one
of the first things they informed me is that I
would need not just a top secret security clearance, I
needed an SCI which is called special Compartmentalized Information. I
was doing contracting for some top secret items. I had
to read the top secret message traffic, so I needed
(18:08):
the security clearance in order to do my job. And
my heart sank because I had heard of others going
through security clearance investigations, And then I got called in
and they sat me down and they just said, we've
discovered evidence that leads us to believe that you may
be homosexual. What do you have to say to that?
(18:29):
And I said it's not true. Then they asked me
to name men that I had dated as some sort
of evidence or proof that I wasn't homosexual, and I
gave them the name of my sponsor at the navel
came was my tennis coach, and she was a lesbian
and she had a gay roommate, and I gave them
his name as evidence of someone that I had dated,
(18:51):
so that I could immediately call him and let him
know that they might be calling him and that we
had dated and he needed to tell them that, And
they all protected me, and those who did know that
as lesbian did not tell the investigators that information. But
I remember the sick feeling that it was enough for
me to lie about myself to investigators and to people
(19:15):
to protect my own career. I hated the idea that
my friends and family were being forced to lie on
my behalf.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
It felt wrong.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
It felt like that was an unfair burden to put
on my friends and family, and they did it for me,
but I also felt physically ill at this idea. I
got a call from my commanding officer several months later
telling me to come see him. And when you're in
the military and you're closet and you're gay and your
(19:47):
commanding officer does not tell you why they want to
see you, but they want to call you in to
talk to you, immediately my thought goes to, they found out.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
They're going to kick me out. This is my last
day in the service.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Something happened, someone said something, they caught something, they read something.
Speaker 4 (20:03):
This is years of having this feeling.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
Every single day.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
It's it's almost like a drip drip drip, every single
day of fear that this is going to be my
last day. It's somehow they're going to find out. And
so every every request, every note, every come speak to me,
You're like, this is it. They found out. I'm going
to get kicked out. And so I went to my
commanning officer. I showed up in his office and he
reached out his hand and he's like, congratulations, your security
(20:28):
clearance came through.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
And I like every muscle in my body that had
been tense just sort of like released in that moment,
and I couldn't believe it. And I shook his hand
and he was smiling like I'd entered some you know,
secret society of people who'd you know, passed the test
and I got my clearance. But it really did contribute
(20:51):
to me applying to business schools because I knew that
I wanted to get off of active duty. I didn't
want to live this lie every single day that I
went to work.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
It's now nineteen ninety one and Zoe is in her
late twenties. She's completed her five years of obligatory service
to the Navy, and now she had a choice. She
could leave the Navy or join the reserves, an option
where she could still serve but not have to be
full time. She chose to join the reserves and work
(21:20):
toward her MBA at Stanford Business School. The extra money
from the military was helpful in paying for grad school.
At this point, she had spent her entire adult life
in the closet. She was tired of living a double life,
and it was at Stanford where she started coming out
to new friends.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
When I first got to Stanford, I wasn't sure how
out I was going to be. I knew I didn't
have to be closeted like I had been when I
was on active duty in the Navy, but I wasn't
sure how safe it was to be out. This was
still the early nineties. The workplace was not necessarily that
open to gays and lesbians. And I had a classmate
come out in the orientation week and one of the
public gatherings that we had, and that gave me confidence
(22:04):
to start to come out myself. And eventually, in my
second year business school, I was like the co chair
of the Pride group at Stanford Business School. And then
Clinton was running for office and he announced that he
was going to open up the military for gays and lesbians,
and I got so excited. I was thrilled. I was like,
oh my gosh, so much courage, Like he's actually going
to eliminate this policy that prevents gays and lesbians from serving.
(22:28):
And then he started to backpedal. He started to hedge
his comments in public and in the news, and right
before his inauguration, I came to find out about a
political rally just down the road from Stanford. There was
a fellow business school student. He was holding this rally
to essentially encourage Clinton to do the right thing and
to allow gays and lesbians to serve. And I called
(22:52):
up the organizer to get a little bit more details
about when and where, and he asked me why I
was interested in and I said, well, I'm a lieutenant
in the Navy Reserves and I've had of secret life
for all these years being a lesbian, so I'm glad
you're having this rally. And he somewhat off handedly said, well,
do you want to speak at the rally? And I said,
oh god, no, no, no, no, that's i don't even
(23:13):
want to make a sign like I'm afraid of being
seen in the audience at this rally, much less taking
the lectern and speaking publicly. And this was about three
days before the rally, and I have the phone, but
the question that he posed kept repeating itself in my head.
I kept thinking to myself, well, if I could speak,
what would I say? And the words just came flooding
(23:33):
to me, like talking about what the experience was like
to be the lesbian, talking about the hypocrisy of the
military being about integrity and honor and telling the truth,
and yet we have this policy that forces people to
lie about who they are in order to continue to serve.
And the speech just started forming itself in my head.
So I called the organizer back up somewhat spontaneously and said,
does that offer to speak still valid? Is that still open?
(23:56):
And he said absolutely, and I said I'd like to
speak at the rally. I wasn't exactly sure what I
was going to say or how much I was going
to come out, but I showed up that morning. I
didn't have any legal counsel, I didn't have any coaching.
I just had written this speech from my heart about
what it was like to serve in the closet and
why it was important to repeal this policy. And I
(24:19):
took the lecture and I said, I'm both a naval
officer and a lesbian, and I refused to live this
lie anymore. And with that, the local papers picked it
up and they began initiating discharge proceedings against me.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
By nineteen ninety three, Zoe Dunning had had enough. At
a rally in protest of the military band, she gave
a speech publicly outing herself. The following weekend, when she
reported for her Navy reserve duty, she was put on
leave and told that she would have a discharge hearing.
A three person board would determine whether she would stay
(25:05):
or whether she would be kicked out.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
I remember the sense of betrayal. I remember the sense
of a week earlier, they thought I was great. A
week earlier, I was getting top notch fitness reports. I
was seen as a contributing member of my unit. No
one would even think of kicking me out for any reason.
(25:29):
But then, because they learned who I am, because I
was honest about who I am, they would immediately just
turn around and begin discharge proceedings against me to kick
me out. We had the hearing. It was about two
day long hearing, and it was unanimous and they really
had no other choice. They voted unanimously to kick me out,
(25:50):
which felt like a kick in the teeth. Being honest
about who I was resulted in them removing me from
the service. Ironically, I received notification that I had been
sole for promotion to lieutenant commander. Wow, So after they
had already unanisically voted to kick me out, they then
promoted me.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
I feel like that illustrates just how many excellent service
members were being kicked out.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely, and how performance had nothing to do
with what they were doing.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Even though the discharge hearing had ended in a recommendation
that Zoe be fired, her discharge still had to be
approved by the Secretary of the Navy, a process which
took months. In the meantime, President Clinton announced his official
position on gays and lesbians in the military, a policy
(26:40):
called Don't Ask, Don't Tell.
Speaker 5 (26:42):
I believe the policy I am announcing today represents a
real step forward, but I know it will raise concerns
in some of your minds.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
Donas, Don't Tell was a compromise. It said, we're not
kicking you out for being gay. We're kicking you out
for telling us that you're gay, and in telling us
that you're gay, we're going to presume that you've engaged
in homosexual conduct, the key phrase having engaged in homosexual conduct.
(27:12):
With the new policy coming into place, the Navy wasn't
quite sure what to do with Zoe. She was convicted
of violating the policy prior to Don't Ask, Don't Tell,
so now she'd have to face a second discharge hearing
under the new policy. Zoe was positive that she'd be
kicked out. She was counting on it. She knew that
(27:35):
when she lost, she'd appeal and maybe take the challenge
all the way to the Supreme Court, but everything was
about to change.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
That was one probably the first dozen don't ask, don't
tell discharge hearings. Don't ask, totell was a very clever policy.
It said, we're not kicking you out for being gay.
We're kicking you out for telling us that you're gay.
And in telling us that you're gay, we're going to
presume that you engage in homosexual conduct. So the whole
purpose of the discharge hearing was to rebut this presumption
that I engage in homosexual conduct. Now, I'm not going
(28:07):
to take the stand and lie and say I'm chased,
or I'm celibate, or I never have or never will
engage in sexual relations that with someone of the same gender.
So my defense attorney said, hey, when you came out
publicly and said you're both a naval officer and a lesbian,
and you refuse to live that lie anymore, what was
your intent behind that? And I said, while my intent
(28:30):
was to talk about who I am, my intent was
not to create a presumption that I engage in conduct.
And he said thank you, and we got that in
the record, and for whatever reason that Board of Officers
I don't know why. I don't know if it's because
we were in the Bay Area and maybe they were
a little bit more progressive.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
If it was just hard for them to hear day
after day of testimony about how good an officer I was,
and there wasn't much guidance on what it takes to
prosecutor defend one of these cases, and they voted unanimously
to retain me. So it was bittersweet because my whole
purpose for coming out was to open up the military
for other gays and lesbians. And because I had won
my case, I then did not have standing to go
(29:07):
to federal court. I couldn't sue. I couldn't sue the
government because I hadn't been wronged because they had retained me.
So I thought, well, at least I've come up with
a clever legal strategy that perhaps others can use. The
Pentagon doesn't like to lose, so they essentially closed off
my defense strategy from anyone else ever using it. And
that's how I got set up for this unique situation
(29:27):
for the next thirteen years, where I was for the
most part the only openly gay member of the US military.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Wow, so you win this case and retain your spot
in the military against this policy. But now every single
person that is going to be tried for being a
gay or lesbian can't use the legal argument that you
used to win. Exactly After two years, Zoe's legal saga
was over, but she didn't get what she wanted. Instead
(29:55):
of ending the ban for all gays and lesbians in
the entire military, she got a ruling that no other
service member could use her defense strategy, leaving her as
the only out LGBTQ member of the United States Armed
Forces for the next thirteen years. This fueled Zoe to
fight for change. She would become one of the most
(30:17):
vocal opponents of Don't Ask, Don't Tell.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
My whole purpose for coming out was to make a
difference for others, So I want to change the policy.
So I get involved with an organization called Service Members
Legal Defense Network, and we started out initially providing free
legal services to those who are impacted by Don't Ask,
Don't Tell. You know, helping someone come out without and
still get an honorable discharge, helping someone who's being investigated
or harrassed. Then we eventually took on a legislative policy
(30:45):
role where we were trying to get the policy overturned legislatively.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
During the two thousand and eight presidential campaign, LGBTQ people
serving in the military was a major political issue. Zoe
knew that in order to repeal Donas Don't Tell, America
needed to elect a Democratic president and a Democratic Congress,
and they did, but there was still one final push
(31:13):
Zoe needed to get Congress to act. She needed young
people to call their congressional leaders and to pressure them
to vote for the appeal. So in twenty ten, her
team at the Service Member's Legal Defense Network worked with
Lady Gaga to make a political statement at the MTV
(31:33):
Video Music Awards that would capture the attention of millions
of young Americans. Former service members from the organization who
were fired under Donas Don'tell accompanied Gaga on the red carpet.
Later that night, she made one of the biggest political
statements of all time, wearing raw meat as a commentary
(31:56):
on Donas Don'tell. In her own words, Gaga told the
pre dead meat is dead meat. Anyone that's willing to
take their life and die for their country is the
same You're not gay and dead or straight and dead.
Speaker 4 (32:11):
You're dead.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
The pop culture moment raised awareness around the issue to
a lot of young people, and at Gaga's urge, they
bombarded Congress with calls to repeal the law. With pressure
now boiling up from multiple sides, Congress passed a bill
to repeal Don't Ask, Don't Tell on December twenty second,
(32:34):
twenty ten. Zoe stood right next to President Obama as
he signed the repeal into law.
Speaker 5 (32:43):
That is why I say to all Americans, yeah or straight,
who want nothing more than to defend this country in uniform.
Your country needs you, your country wants you, and we
will be honored to welcome you into the ranks of
the finest military of the world has ever known.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
What was going through your mind at that moment.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
It was surreal.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
I actually didn't know when I flew to Washington, DC
that I would be up on stage with the President.
Speaker 3 (33:10):
I thought it would just be in the audience.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
I got a call from David Hall of Service Members
Legal Defense Network after the Senate had passed the bill.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
Asked me for my.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Full name, my Social Security number, and my day to birth,
and I said, I don't give that out over the phone,
and he said, just trust us. And when I showed
up a DC and I saw all these other people
who had come for the ceremony, I said, did they
ask you for your full name.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
Social Security number, and date of birth? Wasn't that odd?
Speaker 2 (33:34):
And they said no, no one asked me for that.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
So then I called David.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
I'm like, this must be identity theft because I was like,
why did you ask me for this information? He said, well,
we couldn't tell you before because we had to put
you through a security clearance investigation. But President Obama wanted
to have two veterans on stage with him when he
does the signing ceremony, and you're going to be one
of them.
Speaker 4 (33:52):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
So I felt incredibly honored. I felt a lot of
pressure to represent the literally thousands of people who have
been impacted by don't ask hotell and policies prior to it.
You so rarely get to have this like one singular
moment in time where you can declare success. Right, you
fight and fight and fight over all of these years
to open up the gates in the military, and you
(34:14):
can with a stroke of a pen like legislatively accomplish
your goal. So I knew that I was at this
moment in history when the President was going to sign
the most important civil rights legislation of my generation.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
At that point, and out of my honor to sign
this bill in the.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Law, the ban on homosexuality dating back to the Revolutionary
War was over, and by now Zoe had transformed into
a different person. The young lesbian who once dated men
at the Naval Academy to hide her sexuality was now
(34:53):
defiantly out to all of America. She had worked to
end the ban for her fellow service members and for
future generations of queer people that would serve after her.
It's been about twelve years since doontel has been repealed,
and what do you think is the broader impact of
this other than the obvious right gays and lesbians can
(35:17):
serve in the military. Tell me a little bit about
what you think that impact has been.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
I think the importance of the appeal of don't Ask,
don't tell is so fundamental to what our country stands
for and for democracy. I've heard veterans described as people who,
at one point in their lives walked into a recruiter's
office and signed a blank check to the American people
payable up to and including their own lives. And so
(35:44):
this concept that Americans who are willing to give their
lives for this country have to hide who they are
or could be kicked out for who they are, for
who they love, the concept that our country would do
that feels completely anti democratic, and it also just feels
(36:08):
wrong from a moral standpoint. And so I think the
importance of the repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell is
sending the signal of acceptance. And so my coming out
was also an act of love and an act of
trying to make our country stronger.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
But We Loved is hosted by me Jordan Gonsolvis. New
episodes drop every Wednesday. If you want to write in
to tell your story, email us at buttwe Loved at
gmail dot com, or send us a message on Instagram
or TikTok at but We Loved. We are a production
of The Outspoken Podcast Network and iHeart Podcasts. But We
(36:54):
Loved was originally developed.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
With Pushkin Industries.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
Our producers are Shein no Zaki, Michael June, Emily Meronoff,
and Joey Patt. Our executive producers are me Maya Howard
and Katrina Norble. Fact checking by Marissa Brown, original music
by Steve Bone. Special thanks to Jay Brunson and rock Helllis.
If you loved this episode, leave us a rating and
(37:19):
follow us on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, and thank you
for listening.
Speaker 4 (37:24):
I'll see you next week.
But We Loved is a production of iHeart Podcasts and
the Outspoken podcast Network.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
And then I got called in and they sat me
down and they just said, we've discovered evidence that leads
us to believe that you may be homosexual. What do
you have to say to that? And I said, it's
not true. Then they asked me to name men that
I had dated as some sort of evidence or proof
that I wasn't homosexual. My sponsor at the navel kme
(00:29):
Me was my tennis coach, and she was a lesbian
and she had a gay roommate, and I gave them
his name. It was enough for me to lie about
myself to investigators and to people to protect my own career.
I hated the idea that my friends and family were
being forced to lie on my behalf.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
As a gay kid, growing up religious and in the South,
I thought being gay was the worst thing I could
ever be. Now, as a journalist, I'm trying to unlearn
that by seeking out our history, and what I've found
are people and stories full of courage, perseverance, and love.
(01:13):
In this episode, we'll learn about the centuries old ban
against homosexuality in the US military. We'll hear how Zoe
Dunning fought to end that ban, and we'll learn how
Zoe's fight to end the ban made her one of
the only openly gay service members in the United States
Armed Forces for years. For My Heart podcast, I'm Jordan
(01:37):
and Solves and this is what we loved. I think
(02:06):
for so many queer people, the first time we actually
stand up for ourselves is when we come out, when
we tell the people in our life, I can't betray
myself anymore so that you can feel comfortable for me.
That was coming out to my family. I was scared, terrified.
(02:28):
Actually I didn't want to be rejected, but I was
also tired of living a double life. I mustered up
every ounce of courage I could possibly find and just
came out, sort of like ripping off a band aid.
In my small world, I didn't know anyone who had
(02:49):
stood up for themselves in that way. My next guest,
Zoe Dunning, has a story I wish I knew when
I was coming out. There's this fearless quality to her.
She was a lesbian in the military during her time
when queer people were banned from serving openly, and she
stood up for herself and many other queer service members
(03:13):
by coming out in defiance. How did she gain that confidence?
It was a long journey of self discovery that began
in nineteen eighty one when she got into the highly
prestigious United States Naval Academy in Annapolis, Maryland. At that point,
she didn't even know she was a lesbian yet. But
(03:34):
it was there, at seventeen years old, that Zoe began
a military career that would change American history.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
I showed up not really knowing what I'd gotten myself into.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
I remember.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Learning very early that the key to success at the
Naval Academy was to not be known, which was impossible
to do as a woman because in my entering class,
only one hundred of us were women. So you immediately
stand out, and you're in.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
A fish bowl.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
So everything you do, everything you say, is noticed. And
there were a lot of subliminal and not so subliminal
messages to us that you don't belong here, and that
permeated the entire culture of the organization. At this time
in history. The military's policy was not only can you
(04:30):
not be gay or lesbian or in heaven forbid, transgender,
but you are so threatening that we are going to
spend lots and lots of money to seek you out
and investigate you and discharge you. We will hunt you down,
following people around, intercepting male confiscating diaries, listening in on
(04:52):
phone calls.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Wow, well, before we get to that, Zoe, what did
you actually like about the naval account of.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
One of the things I really loved about being there
was the sense of being part of something bigger than myself.
I was part of this institution, this leadership development, and
it felt proud to be part of that tradition, to
be part of that organization.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
The other thing I.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Really liked about it was my sports teams, so I
immediately joined the basketball team when I was a freshman.
My mom died that September, and the basketball team kind
of became my family. They really reached out and embraced
me in a way of giving me a sense of belonging,
and it just felt very much like home. When I
(05:37):
was with my teammates, I felt very safe with them.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
So now tell me a little bit about how you're
discovering your sexuality and making friends at the same time.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
On the basketball team, we had to come back over
Christmas break my freshman year, so we stayed at the
home of the officer representative for our team, and I
noticed a couple of the women were particularly affectionate and
attentive to one another, and I wasn't really sure what
to make of that. It didn't seem to really bother me.
(06:08):
It intrigued me a little bit, and I wasn't sure
whether I'm interpreting this behavior correctly or not. And my
friend Connie was one of them, and the head manager
had a little bit too much to drink one night,
her lips got a little loose with a little Jack Daniels,
and she started asking me, like.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
What do you think of Connie and that gal?
Speaker 2 (06:29):
She said, well, don't you think there's a little weird
like how affectionate they are with each other? And I said, no,
that's fine by me. And she was testing me out
just to see what my reaction was, and once I
expressed that I didn't really care that much, or that
I wasn't freaked out by it or grossed out by it,
(06:50):
she proceeded to come out to me as lesbian herself,
and then she proceeded to tell me about every other
lesbian on the basketball team and all the dynamics of
who whom and you know where there were riffs between
you know, two players who had dated but now had
broken up. And I got the whole lowdown, and I
remember at the time feeling two very distinct feelings. The
(07:12):
one feeling was a sense of closeness and feeling honored
that she trusted me to share this information because I
knew immediately that this information was very dangerous. And then
I immediately felt fear for the fact that I knew
this information, because I felt fear for my friends and
(07:33):
you know, teammates who I knew were going to be
at risk for investigation or discharge. So that coming out
to me entered me into this world of the secret
society of lesbians at Annapolis, or at least on the
basketball team. So she reminded me not to ever tell
anyone or people would lose their scholarships and get kicked out.
(07:53):
She reminded me that if I did get called in
by investigators, that I had the right to remain silent.
She reminded me that if I was called in by investigators,
that I should never ever throw another teammate.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Under the bus or another woman under the bus.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
That we were going to like black arms and keep
our secret together and no one should reveal it. And
so I felt like somewhat like a honored those in
this little secret society, but also scared for them, and
then also a little bit for myself because I didn't
really know about myself at the time. It wasn't until
(08:30):
a couple months later that I finally realized that, Yeah,
actually I am lesbian too.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Yeah, tell me about that. How did you realize that?
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Manager of the basketball team, they decided to get a
bunch of us together who were in town for this training.
We spent the night in this house, and I met
one of these volleyball players who was a classmate of mine,
and I just really became very enamored by her. And
that night that we were there in this home, we
were kind of lying on the floor next to each
other and we started chatting a bit and getting to
(09:00):
know each other, and I asked her a little bit
about her childhood or her time before the academy, and
she shared that she had a really difficult relationship, strained
relationship with her mother, and I asked her a little
bit more about that, and she shared with me that
her mom had made her see a psychiatrist and I
(09:21):
listened a little bit more, and I said, why would
your mom force you to see a psychiatrist? And she said, well,
she didn't agree with my lifestyle, and lifestyle was code
for being gay. But I wasn't sure, and I was
too afraid to ask, because then I was essentially putting
her in a position of coming out to me, because
we have this thing called the honor code, and you
(09:41):
can't like cheat steel. So I didn't ask any further questions,
but I got contextually what she was trying to tell me,
and we ended up kissing. I had my very first
kiss with a girl on the floor of this house,
with or five other women in the room asleep while
(10:04):
we whispered and chatted with each other, and she and
I became girlfriends and then had to hide our relationship
for the remaining three years that we were at the academy.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
What did the kiss feel like?
Speaker 2 (10:18):
It felt like coming home when I kissed her.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
Wow, it really felt.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Like coming home. It felt natural, It felt good. I
felt excited and tingly. I felt scared that what this
meant for me and for us, and what it would
mean for how I would have to, you know, conduct
myself at the academy and that I would have to
hide this. It was exciting and terrifying at the same time.
(10:48):
Imagine like experiencing your first love and knowing immediately that
that could cost you your scholarship.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
I had no backup plan.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
There was no money for college otherwise, so it was
particularly valuable for me to keep that scholarship.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
So you're in a relationship with a woman, you're discovering
your sexuality. Were you able to tell anyone besides your
girlfriend and the basketball team.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
You were very careful who knew, and in general, I
would never let anyone know who I didn't know one
hundred percent was lesbian themselves. I didn't have much exposure
to the gay men at the academy at that point
in time, just pretty much the lesbians on the sports teams.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
That was the only people who knew, the only people
I would admit it to.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
It was almost this weird power dynamic where you never
allowed someone to know that you were gay that was
straight themselves, because there was this fear that they could
turn you in and there's nothing you could do about it.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Well, were some of the hurdles that you would go
through to keep this a secret.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
Oh, gosh.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
When I was at the academy, both my girlfriend and
I dated men to try to cover up really that
we were lesbian. And it was this tricky game that
I had to play where I wanted to be seen
(12:14):
dating a guy to throw off suspicion. So I had
I think, two different boyfriends when I was at the
Academy while I was dating my girlfriend that would go
out on dates with but I didn't want to get
too far physically with them, so I would kiss with them,
I would make out with them, but I didn't want
to do anything more than that, and eventually they would
(12:36):
get grow tired of it and move on. But you
were playing this game all the time to sort of
throw off suspicion. Also, Julie and I were very careful
how often we were seen talking to each other in public,
so we would literally see each other and not talk
with each other because everyone would see us talking together
(12:56):
and that might create suspicion. We were like, you know, eighteeneen,
twenty years old, and we were faced with these moral
and ethical dilemmas of who are you loyal to? What's
the right thing to do in these situations?
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Do you.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Tell the truth or do you lie knowing that the
truth will ridiculously harm someone and end their career for
a reason that has absolutely no bearing on their ability
to do their job.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
It's nineteen eighty five and Zoe Dunning has successfully graduated
without being added. By this point, she and her first
love were assigned to different cities and eventually broke up,
but the band was still taking a toll on her.
She witnessed one of her closest friends from the bass
(14:00):
ketball team get investigated and then kicked out. Knowing that
she could lose her career too, Zoe was in a
constant state of anxiety to repay their scholarships. Naval Academy
graduates are required to serve five years of active duty
after graduation. Zoe's first assignment after graduation was on the
(14:22):
USS Lexington as a supply Corps officer. While on that ship,
she started experiencing harassment due to suspicions that she was
a lesbian.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
The challenge with not being out is that people could
harass you and you couldn't really do anything about it.
So I remember, for example, I was on board ship
and there were three or four or five other women
in the wardroom who were also lesbian. There is a
book on the quarterdeck that has the pictures and names
(14:54):
of every officer on the ship. In that book of
officers the handful of women that they suspected to be lesbian,
and they weren't far off. Someone had an handwritten pen
scribbled Dyke or Lesbo next to our names and our photographs,
including myself. I was like, oh shit, this isn't good.
(15:14):
And then I immediately went to see whether they had
written it next to anyone else's name. And I'm flipping
through the pages and I'm flipping through the pages and
I can't react physically because I'm standing on the quarterdeck.
People are coming on and off the ship. I just
have to look very professional. And when I first saw it,
I just flipped it closed and put it back underneath
the podium.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
To think about it, to think about what I needed to.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Do, and made sure that no one else on the
quarterdeck during my watch looked at it or opened it up.
My mind was racing. I was like, how many people
have seen this already? How long has it been like this?
What do I do do I leave it as is
and pretend it never happened, and I hope it goes away.
Do I take it to the admin officer and demand
(15:56):
that they replace the book? Do I leert the other
women and let them know that their names and faces
have been graffitied with these comments? So I decided that
the thing that's going to draw the least amount of
attention and yet protect us from anyone else seeing this
was to just tear those pages out of the book.
And I did when no one was looking, I know,
(16:18):
quietly tore those pages out of the book. I put
them in my pocket and I left, and I don't
know if I shredded them or took them off the
ship and threw them away. At home, I alerted the
other women that this had happened so that they knew,
and eventually, a couple of weeks later, I noticed that
there was a new book. Someone had noticed the missing pages,
(16:38):
and they'd replaced the book and there was no more
graffiti added to it. That was an example of you're
getting harassed, but you can't report it because if you do,
then you bring more attention to yourself and people will
be like, well, why did someone write dyke next to
your photograph? Instead of the people who did it being
investigated or being punished for it.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
While Zoe was on active duty in the military. The
ban on LGBTQ people meant in depth investigations into whether
they had ever engaged in quote, homosexual conduct. The military
keeps no records of just how much these investigations cost taxpayers,
but from nineteen eighty two to nineteen ninety two, taxpayers
(17:24):
spent five hundred million dollars on the replacements for men
and women who were discharged because of their homosexuality. Zoe
herself had never been at the center of any of
these kinds of investigations until she was transferred to Arlington,
Virginia for a job that required top secret security clearance.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
I show up for my first day with my orders
reporting for duty from my final job on active duty
in the Navy at the Naval Security Station, and one
of the first things they informed me is that I
would need not just a top secret security clearance, I
needed an SCI which is called special Compartmentalized Information. I
was doing contracting for some top secret items. I had
to read the top secret message traffic, so I needed
(18:08):
the security clearance in order to do my job. And
my heart sank because I had heard of others going
through security clearance investigations, And then I got called in
and they sat me down and they just said, we've
discovered evidence that leads us to believe that you may
be homosexual. What do you have to say to that?
(18:29):
And I said it's not true. Then they asked me
to name men that I had dated as some sort
of evidence or proof that I wasn't homosexual, and I
gave them the name of my sponsor at the navel
came was my tennis coach, and she was a lesbian
and she had a gay roommate, and I gave them
his name as evidence of someone that I had dated,
(18:51):
so that I could immediately call him and let him
know that they might be calling him and that we
had dated and he needed to tell them that, And
they all protected me, and those who did know that
as lesbian did not tell the investigators that information. But
I remember the sick feeling that it was enough for
me to lie about myself to investigators and to people
(19:15):
to protect my own career. I hated the idea that
my friends and family were being forced to lie on
my behalf.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
It felt wrong.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
It felt like that was an unfair burden to put
on my friends and family, and they did it for me,
but I also felt physically ill at this idea. I
got a call from my commanding officer several months later
telling me to come see him. And when you're in
the military and you're closet and you're gay and your
(19:47):
commanding officer does not tell you why they want to
see you, but they want to call you in to
talk to you, immediately my thought goes to, they found out.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
They're going to kick me out. This is my last
day in the service.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Something happened, someone said something, they caught something, they read something.
Speaker 4 (20:03):
This is years of having this feeling.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
Every single day.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
It's it's almost like a drip drip drip, every single
day of fear that this is going to be my
last day. It's somehow they're going to find out. And
so every every request, every note, every come speak to me,
You're like, this is it. They found out. I'm going
to get kicked out. And so I went to my
commanning officer. I showed up in his office and he
reached out his hand and he's like, congratulations, your security
(20:28):
clearance came through.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
And I like every muscle in my body that had
been tense just sort of like released in that moment,
and I couldn't believe it. And I shook his hand
and he was smiling like I'd entered some you know,
secret society of people who'd you know, passed the test
and I got my clearance. But it really did contribute
(20:51):
to me applying to business schools because I knew that
I wanted to get off of active duty. I didn't
want to live this lie every single day that I
went to work.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
It's now nineteen ninety one and Zoe is in her
late twenties. She's completed her five years of obligatory service
to the Navy, and now she had a choice. She
could leave the Navy or join the reserves, an option
where she could still serve but not have to be
full time. She chose to join the reserves and work
(21:20):
toward her MBA at Stanford Business School. The extra money
from the military was helpful in paying for grad school.
At this point, she had spent her entire adult life
in the closet. She was tired of living a double life,
and it was at Stanford where she started coming out
to new friends.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
When I first got to Stanford, I wasn't sure how
out I was going to be. I knew I didn't
have to be closeted like I had been when I
was on active duty in the Navy, but I wasn't
sure how safe it was to be out. This was
still the early nineties. The workplace was not necessarily that
open to gays and lesbians. And I had a classmate
come out in the orientation week and one of the
public gatherings that we had, and that gave me confidence
(22:04):
to start to come out myself. And eventually, in my
second year business school, I was like the co chair
of the Pride group at Stanford Business School. And then
Clinton was running for office and he announced that he
was going to open up the military for gays and lesbians,
and I got so excited. I was thrilled. I was like,
oh my gosh, so much courage, Like he's actually going
to eliminate this policy that prevents gays and lesbians from serving.
(22:28):
And then he started to backpedal. He started to hedge
his comments in public and in the news, and right
before his inauguration, I came to find out about a
political rally just down the road from Stanford. There was
a fellow business school student. He was holding this rally
to essentially encourage Clinton to do the right thing and
to allow gays and lesbians to serve. And I called
(22:52):
up the organizer to get a little bit more details
about when and where, and he asked me why I
was interested in and I said, well, I'm a lieutenant
in the Navy Reserves and I've had of secret life
for all these years being a lesbian, so I'm glad
you're having this rally. And he somewhat off handedly said, well,
do you want to speak at the rally? And I said,
oh god, no, no, no, no, that's i don't even
(23:13):
want to make a sign like I'm afraid of being
seen in the audience at this rally, much less taking
the lectern and speaking publicly. And this was about three
days before the rally, and I have the phone, but
the question that he posed kept repeating itself in my head.
I kept thinking to myself, well, if I could speak,
what would I say? And the words just came flooding
(23:33):
to me, like talking about what the experience was like
to be the lesbian, talking about the hypocrisy of the
military being about integrity and honor and telling the truth,
and yet we have this policy that forces people to
lie about who they are in order to continue to serve.
And the speech just started forming itself in my head.
So I called the organizer back up somewhat spontaneously and said,
does that offer to speak still valid? Is that still open?
(23:56):
And he said absolutely, and I said I'd like to
speak at the rally. I wasn't exactly sure what I
was going to say or how much I was going
to come out, but I showed up that morning. I
didn't have any legal counsel, I didn't have any coaching.
I just had written this speech from my heart about
what it was like to serve in the closet and
why it was important to repeal this policy. And I
(24:19):
took the lecture and I said, I'm both a naval
officer and a lesbian, and I refused to live this
lie anymore. And with that, the local papers picked it
up and they began initiating discharge proceedings against me.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
By nineteen ninety three, Zoe Dunning had had enough. At
a rally in protest of the military band, she gave
a speech publicly outing herself. The following weekend, when she
reported for her Navy reserve duty, she was put on
leave and told that she would have a discharge hearing.
A three person board would determine whether she would stay
(25:05):
or whether she would be kicked out.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
I remember the sense of betrayal. I remember the sense
of a week earlier, they thought I was great. A
week earlier, I was getting top notch fitness reports. I
was seen as a contributing member of my unit. No
one would even think of kicking me out for any reason.
(25:29):
But then, because they learned who I am, because I
was honest about who I am, they would immediately just
turn around and begin discharge proceedings against me to kick
me out. We had the hearing. It was about two
day long hearing, and it was unanimous and they really
had no other choice. They voted unanimously to kick me out,
(25:50):
which felt like a kick in the teeth. Being honest
about who I was resulted in them removing me from
the service. Ironically, I received notification that I had been
sole for promotion to lieutenant commander. Wow, So after they
had already unanisically voted to kick me out, they then
promoted me.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
I feel like that illustrates just how many excellent service
members were being kicked out.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely, and how performance had nothing to do
with what they were doing.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Even though the discharge hearing had ended in a recommendation
that Zoe be fired, her discharge still had to be
approved by the Secretary of the Navy, a process which
took months. In the meantime, President Clinton announced his official
position on gays and lesbians in the military, a policy
(26:40):
called Don't Ask, Don't Tell.
Speaker 5 (26:42):
I believe the policy I am announcing today represents a
real step forward, but I know it will raise concerns
in some of your minds.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
Donas, Don't Tell was a compromise. It said, we're not
kicking you out for being gay. We're kicking you out
for telling us that you're gay, and in telling us
that you're gay, we're going to presume that you've engaged
in homosexual conduct, the key phrase having engaged in homosexual conduct.
(27:12):
With the new policy coming into place, the Navy wasn't
quite sure what to do with Zoe. She was convicted
of violating the policy prior to Don't Ask, Don't Tell,
so now she'd have to face a second discharge hearing
under the new policy. Zoe was positive that she'd be
kicked out. She was counting on it. She knew that
(27:35):
when she lost, she'd appeal and maybe take the challenge
all the way to the Supreme Court, but everything was
about to change.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
That was one probably the first dozen don't ask, don't
tell discharge hearings. Don't ask, totell was a very clever policy.
It said, we're not kicking you out for being gay.
We're kicking you out for telling us that you're gay.
And in telling us that you're gay, we're going to
presume that you engage in homosexual conduct. So the whole
purpose of the discharge hearing was to rebut this presumption
that I engage in homosexual conduct. Now, I'm not going
(28:07):
to take the stand and lie and say I'm chased,
or I'm celibate, or I never have or never will
engage in sexual relations that with someone of the same gender.
So my defense attorney said, hey, when you came out
publicly and said you're both a naval officer and a lesbian,
and you refuse to live that lie anymore, what was
your intent behind that? And I said, while my intent
(28:30):
was to talk about who I am, my intent was
not to create a presumption that I engage in conduct.
And he said thank you, and we got that in
the record, and for whatever reason that Board of Officers
I don't know why. I don't know if it's because
we were in the Bay Area and maybe they were
a little bit more progressive.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
If it was just hard for them to hear day
after day of testimony about how good an officer I was,
and there wasn't much guidance on what it takes to
prosecutor defend one of these cases, and they voted unanimously
to retain me. So it was bittersweet because my whole
purpose for coming out was to open up the military
for other gays and lesbians. And because I had won
my case, I then did not have standing to go
(29:07):
to federal court. I couldn't sue. I couldn't sue the
government because I hadn't been wronged because they had retained me.
So I thought, well, at least I've come up with
a clever legal strategy that perhaps others can use. The
Pentagon doesn't like to lose, so they essentially closed off
my defense strategy from anyone else ever using it. And
that's how I got set up for this unique situation
(29:27):
for the next thirteen years, where I was for the
most part the only openly gay member of the US military.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Wow, so you win this case and retain your spot
in the military against this policy. But now every single
person that is going to be tried for being a
gay or lesbian can't use the legal argument that you
used to win. Exactly After two years, Zoe's legal saga
was over, but she didn't get what she wanted. Instead
(29:55):
of ending the ban for all gays and lesbians in
the entire military, she got a ruling that no other
service member could use her defense strategy, leaving her as
the only out LGBTQ member of the United States Armed
Forces for the next thirteen years. This fueled Zoe to
fight for change. She would become one of the most
(30:17):
vocal opponents of Don't Ask, Don't Tell.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
My whole purpose for coming out was to make a
difference for others, So I want to change the policy.
So I get involved with an organization called Service Members
Legal Defense Network, and we started out initially providing free
legal services to those who are impacted by Don't Ask,
Don't Tell. You know, helping someone come out without and
still get an honorable discharge, helping someone who's being investigated
or harrassed. Then we eventually took on a legislative policy
(30:45):
role where we were trying to get the policy overturned legislatively.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
During the two thousand and eight presidential campaign, LGBTQ people
serving in the military was a major political issue. Zoe
knew that in order to repeal Donas Don't Tell, America
needed to elect a Democratic president and a Democratic Congress,
and they did, but there was still one final push
(31:13):
Zoe needed to get Congress to act. She needed young
people to call their congressional leaders and to pressure them
to vote for the appeal. So in twenty ten, her
team at the Service Member's Legal Defense Network worked with
Lady Gaga to make a political statement at the MTV
(31:33):
Video Music Awards that would capture the attention of millions
of young Americans. Former service members from the organization who
were fired under Donas Don'tell accompanied Gaga on the red carpet.
Later that night, she made one of the biggest political
statements of all time, wearing raw meat as a commentary
(31:56):
on Donas Don'tell. In her own words, Gaga told the
pre dead meat is dead meat. Anyone that's willing to
take their life and die for their country is the
same You're not gay and dead or straight and dead.
Speaker 4 (32:11):
You're dead.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
The pop culture moment raised awareness around the issue to
a lot of young people, and at Gaga's urge, they
bombarded Congress with calls to repeal the law. With pressure
now boiling up from multiple sides, Congress passed a bill
to repeal Don't Ask, Don't Tell on December twenty second,
(32:34):
twenty ten. Zoe stood right next to President Obama as
he signed the repeal into law.
Speaker 5 (32:43):
That is why I say to all Americans, yeah or straight,
who want nothing more than to defend this country in uniform.
Your country needs you, your country wants you, and we
will be honored to welcome you into the ranks of
the finest military of the world has ever known.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
What was going through your mind at that moment.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
It was surreal.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
I actually didn't know when I flew to Washington, DC
that I would be up on stage with the President.
Speaker 3 (33:10):
I thought it would just be in the audience.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
I got a call from David Hall of Service Members
Legal Defense Network after the Senate had passed the bill.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
Asked me for my.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Full name, my Social Security number, and my day to birth,
and I said, I don't give that out over the phone,
and he said, just trust us. And when I showed
up a DC and I saw all these other people
who had come for the ceremony, I said, did they
ask you for your full name.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
Social Security number, and date of birth? Wasn't that odd?
Speaker 2 (33:34):
And they said no, no one asked me for that.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
So then I called David.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
I'm like, this must be identity theft because I was like,
why did you ask me for this information? He said, well,
we couldn't tell you before because we had to put
you through a security clearance investigation. But President Obama wanted
to have two veterans on stage with him when he
does the signing ceremony, and you're going to be one
of them.
Speaker 4 (33:52):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
So I felt incredibly honored. I felt a lot of
pressure to represent the literally thousands of people who have
been impacted by don't ask hotell and policies prior to it.
You so rarely get to have this like one singular
moment in time where you can declare success. Right, you
fight and fight and fight over all of these years
to open up the gates in the military, and you
(34:14):
can with a stroke of a pen like legislatively accomplish
your goal. So I knew that I was at this
moment in history when the President was going to sign
the most important civil rights legislation of my generation.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
At that point, and out of my honor to sign
this bill in the.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Law, the ban on homosexuality dating back to the Revolutionary
War was over, and by now Zoe had transformed into
a different person. The young lesbian who once dated men
at the Naval Academy to hide her sexuality was now
(34:53):
defiantly out to all of America. She had worked to
end the ban for her fellow service members and for
future generations of queer people that would serve after her.
It's been about twelve years since doontel has been repealed,
and what do you think is the broader impact of
this other than the obvious right gays and lesbians can
(35:17):
serve in the military. Tell me a little bit about
what you think that impact has been.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
I think the importance of the appeal of don't Ask,
don't tell is so fundamental to what our country stands
for and for democracy. I've heard veterans described as people who,
at one point in their lives walked into a recruiter's
office and signed a blank check to the American people
payable up to and including their own lives. And so
(35:44):
this concept that Americans who are willing to give their
lives for this country have to hide who they are
or could be kicked out for who they are, for
who they love, the concept that our country would do
that feels completely anti democratic, and it also just feels
(36:08):
wrong from a moral standpoint. And so I think the
importance of the repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell is
sending the signal of acceptance. And so my coming out
was also an act of love and an act of
trying to make our country stronger.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
But We Loved is hosted by me Jordan Gonsolvis. New
episodes drop every Wednesday. If you want to write in
to tell your story, email us at buttwe Loved at
gmail dot com, or send us a message on Instagram
or TikTok at but We Loved. We are a production
of The Outspoken Podcast Network and iHeart Podcasts. But We
(36:54):
Loved was originally developed.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
With Pushkin Industries.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
Our producers are Shein no Zaki, Michael June, Emily Meronoff,
and Joey Patt. Our executive producers are me Maya Howard
and Katrina Norble. Fact checking by Marissa Brown, original music
by Steve Bone. Special thanks to Jay Brunson and rock Helllis.
If you loved this episode, leave us a rating and
(37:19):
follow us on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, and thank you
for listening.
Speaker 4 (37:24):
I'll see you next week.
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