September 4, 2025 ⢠33 mins
On this episode of Butternomics, our host, Brandon Butler, dives into the story of how Black Spades turned a classic card game into a thriving culture brand. From learning manufacturing lessons in Shenzhen to testing product demand through Kickstarter, this episode shows what it takes to build a business rooted in authenticity. Mackey breaks down the power of sampling before scaling, the grind of overseas trips, and why cultural trust beats big budgets every time.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I was doing a job.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
I think it was for Twitter, and at that point
it was gonna be the biggest money I ever saw.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
So I'm like excited, happy, like I can't wait get
this money.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
But then when I thought about it, my bills were
so far behind that I was like, man, by the
time I get this check, I'm just gonna get caught up.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
I'm not gonna have anything.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
So I was like, I got to create something where
I make it one time, I don't have to work
to do it, and I can keep making money. And
then I was like, wait a minute, I can design
a deck of cards. Can't be that hard, can't be
that expensive? It was hard and expensive.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Everybody holds another episode of Butter. I'm the host Brandon
Butler found the CEO of Butter atl And today I
got somebody special in the building. Man, got my guy,
even Mackie up in here, he black spades. How you doing, bro,
I'm doing good.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Did you say somebody special for everybody? Or like, am
I really somebody?
Speaker 3 (00:51):
I say for a lot of people, But everybody's special, Man,
everybody's special. You know what I'm saying. MANE, I'm good,
I'm good. How you feeling if I was any better,
I be you brother.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Hey, I like that, Like I gotta start using that.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Hey man, look man, I appreciate you pulling up. You know.
We always like to do something little fun, a little different.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
You know.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
So I know some folks like you know, tell us
about yourself and do all this, but we do on
button Nomics is we asked chat cheapt to write a
bio for our guests.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Oh that is so dope. I literally looked myself up
on chat GPT yesterday.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Okay, I was.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
I saw somebody do it online and I was like,
let me put my name in and see what happens.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
But yeah, go ahead, Okay, So I had chat cheept
write a bio for you know what I'm saying, we're
gonna read. I want you to tell me is it on?
Is it off? You know, not need to upgrade all
that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Okay, you're right, Yeah, I'm good, All right.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Eve Macki is an Atlanta based photographer, entrepreneur, and the creative
force behind Black Spades, the culture rooted lifestyle brand that
he began as a custom deck of playing cards celebrating
Black Spades culture. He's also the founder of Dope Art Media,
a creative agency specializing in photography, video production, graphic design,
and marketing strategy for brands like Twitter, Amazon, and Mercedes Benz.
His work blends creativity, storytelling an active doesn't, notably documenting
(02:01):
the Black Lives Matter protests across multiple cities. Today, mak
It continues to merge art, culture and entrepreneurship, using his
platforms to empower communities and build innovative ventures, like the
upcoming Spades based app Blacker.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Yep spot on spot on, Yeah, yes, spot home. Oh man,
it's crazy.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
See man, look, I'm telling its crazy.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Like how it does that? That's pretty crazy? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Well let me ask you, man, I appreciate you pulling
up man. Now, obviously you know you you talk about
yourself because I remember we were talking offline like you
know what Brandon like people thought. People don't know, man,
I'm an artist. I'm kind of a designer. First, you
have a background in fashion and film production, like you know,
how did How does how does all that background experience
kind of appro influence how you approach business?
Speaker 2 (02:44):
I think that it influences it because like basically, you know,
when you when you start something, when you create whatever,
like venture or whatever path it is that you want
to create, whether it's successful or not, you learn something
along the way. And so what I found is just
all the different things that I do have made it
easier for me to kind of transition into new things
(03:04):
or to create new things because there's some element of
something that I've done before that I like lean on
to create the new things. So that's probably the biggest part,
is just the experience and you know, resources, relationships, stuff
like that.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Okay, and what's the background of dop part media? How'd
that get started?
Speaker 1 (03:19):
So?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Dop Park got started because when I was at Florida State,
I started the homecoming fashion show that was out there,
and so I have a homeboy named Chris Parsons, like
super duper dope creative, and he filmed it. But after
he filmed it, he never edited the video. So fast
forward like a few months I had graduated, but actually
fast forward like a year I graduated.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
I was in Miami.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
He was in Miami touring with Tea Paying when t
Paying first pop and he was like sleeping in the office,
like down there, and so I was like, bro, come
stay with us. When he stayed with us, he was like, oh,
I got that footage from your fashion show, but I'm
gonna teach you how to edit it because he didn't
want to edit. So he sat me down like first
like early version of final cut, and I picked it up,
(04:03):
started editing on final Cut, and then kind of started
incorporating video editing into what I do. Fast forward, I
was working at a nightclub on South Beach and as
a marketing director, so I had to do a lot
of video for a lot of different brands. And so
when I left that job, a lot of the brands
like Remy Martin, were like, Yo, we still want video.
(04:24):
I was hiring people to shoot it. I was editing.
The shooters were making all the money, so I was
like I had to buy a camera. And so from
there is one thing kind of led to another, and
I realized, like I designed, I can shoot, I can edit,
so I might as well make this a thing.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
So that's kind of what it was.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Okay, and like, well, those kind of projects you were
working on more like smaller products to you kind of decided,
you know what, I want to focus on this agency
and started getting bigger clients.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Well, actually what happened was I was actually an artist
back then, Like a musical artist.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
I was a rapper, yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
And so from making music and producing music, I already
like I had done shows, I toured like stuff like that,
like independent artists level, yeah, and so I already had
a host of like relationships already. So when I decided
to get into video production, I already had like pretty
decent relationships. So when they found out I was doing it,
(05:15):
they kind of a meg, can you do this for me?
So my first clients were like the Remy Martins and
stuff like that was one of my first clients. So
I didn't really do smaller stuff until after I got
more established and more people found out about it. But
I actually started with bigger clients believe it or not.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
Oh man, Now, how did that influence it? Because again,
like a lot of post will get those opportunities out
of the gate, right, that's a that's a different beast,
Like how were you able to just come out and
start working with those bigger clients?
Speaker 2 (05:39):
And well, like I said, I already had relationships with
them on other stuff, right, So when they found out,
they were like hey, And I think it was more
of them supporting what I was doing because the work
definitely ain't the work that I do.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Now, you know what I mean? So I think that's
I mean, that's what it was.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
And honestly doing that is kind of what inspired me
to leave music alone because I was like, man, this
music is costing me money and this, you know, this
camera's making me money. So I was like, let me
stack my money up a little bit and I'm gonna
come back when I'm in a better financial spot to record.
And then I was off to the races. Man like
that first two three years went by so fast, and
(06:18):
I was like, em, I feel like going to that studio. Yeah,
so I just never looked back.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
Okay, okay, Now black Spades that came up because you
were watching a math video on YouTube, Like how did
black Spades come to be?
Speaker 2 (06:30):
So black Spades came to be because I was doing
a job.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
I think it was for Twitter.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
We're about to do a job, and at that point,
it was gonna be the biggest money I ever saw.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
So I'm like excited, happy, like but I can't wait
get this money.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
But then when I thought about it, my bills were
so far behind that I was like, man, by the
time I get this check, I'm just gonna get caught
up and I'm not gonna have anything. So in the
back of my mind, I was thinking I needed to
create something anyway.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
I had to create.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
I got to create something where I may at one
time I don't have to work to do it, and
I can keep making money. So one day, while watching
YouTube videos, I came across the video where a guy
was describing a mathematical concept using a deck of cards,
and I was like, Yo, those cars are dope. And
then I was like, wait a minute, I can design
a deck of cards. Can't be that hard, can't be
(07:18):
that expensive. It was hard and expensive. It was very
much hard and very much expensive. And anyway, that's kind
of where the idea came from. It's like I can
design a deck of cards. And so through the next
couple weeks or so, I was just kind of trying
to think, like, why would anybody want to buy my cards?
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Why?
Speaker 2 (07:35):
What can I do that when make somebody want to
buy them? In one today in the shower, one of
them shower thoughts, I was like, oh, you black, we
play spades. I've never seen a spades deck. And I
was like, wait a minute, I don't think I've ever
seen a deck of cards. With black people on it
at all at that point. And so that's kind of
where it was how it started.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
Now, you say, designing a deck of cars is hard
and expensive, give me some condent. What do you mean
by that? Like, what's hard? What's expensed? Like? What do
people not know about something like? Because it seems like
simple at a high level, it's it's sometimes I say, like,
it's simple, but it's not easy.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Right, It's simple, but it's not easy. So, for example,
the first thing is designing it, right. I'm a designer,
and so the concept that I had in my mind.
I was sitting there designing for weeks, like almost a month,
and it was just not coming out right. And I'm like,
you know what, I don't I don't have to design this.
It's people that designed cards every day. Let me just
pay somebody to do this.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
So that was that.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
There's a lot of research that went into it. I
researched ancient Egypt, because you know the cars Egyptian theme.
I researched ancient Egypt for like three months. I went
to Egypt. Once I got the first decks of cards back,
the gold on the packaging wasn't the right shade of gold.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
I'm like, no, you got to fix this gold.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
When I got the first decks back and we shuffled
the cards, they didn't shuffle right. So I flew to
China just for them to measure the thickness of the
card like the paper and be like okay, yeah, the
thickness is off by this much, and they got the
So it was just such a process. And then expense
is like, it's not cheap. This is not like for
me to produce a new deck. It's like five thousand
(09:09):
dollars out the gate, and now I got to sell
it and that because you got to market it and
all that. So it's it just was not as cheap
or easy as I thought it was going to be.
And admittedly I probably made it harder because it was
a certain standard that I wanted to set with the deck.
I didn't want them to be cheap. I wanted to
be nice. So I probably made more work for myself
than it needed to be.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
But yeah, you flew in China just to make sure
they measured the thickness of the cars, Like, tell me
about that story.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Yeah, So when you when you produce a product abroad,
a lot of times there's gonna be a language barrier
even if they speak English. The other frustrating thing about
it is the time difference. So it's like a twelve
hour time difference from their twelve hours ahead. So if
I want to have any type of fluid conversation, I'm
(09:56):
up at three in the morning, you know, having a
conversation with somebody that speaks English but doesn't speak English.
How we speak English. And then you compound it because
you're speaking through text like you're messaging somebody, and so
it's just such a slow, arduous process that I was like,
you know, this is gonna be one hundred times easier
(10:16):
to just fly there in this talk to them in
person and get it done. So that's kind of the
reason why I did it that way.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
How did you find your life? I mean cause again,
like even there's a lot of people that want to
do products and want to do things like that, and
you know a lot of that stuff is going to
come from overseas. Like how did you go through the
process of even like finding a manufacturer that could even
like produce these for you?
Speaker 2 (10:46):
So originally we found a manufacturer that we thought was here,
and you well, originally I tried to get it manufactured
with bicycle. It was like two three months of emailing
them constantly before I even got a response. When I
got a response, it was just unsustainably expensive, Like it
just didn't even make sense. I'm like, what, this don't
(11:07):
even make sense. So I found another company that I
thought was here in the US and went with them first.
And then while I was talking to the rep, she
said something about the factory and I was like, the factory.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
I thought you were the factory.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
And when I realized that they were the middle people,
I was like, oh, so I can get it cheaper.
So then I went on Ali Baba and then I
found you know, playing card manufacturers. I reached out to one.
I sent them the decks. I'm like, can you make
something that disquality of better? They sent me samples back.
I'm like, oh yeah, this is dope. I ended up
flying to the factory that first time to check the
factory out to just kind of see what type of
(11:45):
options they have. And that's which is the best way.
If you can go to the factory, go because it's
not every You're not gonna say everything online and you know,
went to the factory the first time, locked in with
them and then that's when they you know, we did
the first run.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
I shuffled.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
I'm like, yeh nah, these don't shuffle right, and then
went back to get that thickness right, and then you
know we've been good since.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
What's the what's the time? Like what kind of timeline
are we talking about to like, you know, getting stuck
because I know it takes a minute for stuff you
shipped overseas get made. So again, I'm just asking for
people to have ideas. Yeah, yeah, look, I don't gate keep.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Like people call me all the time like I want
to start a card company, Like how do I do it? Like,
I'm gonna give you my company, just don't tell nobody
my company is on the system. But yeah, so the
process to creating a deck. Our process is, let's say
you want to do a buttonmics deck, I would tell you, hey,
we need at least two two and a half months.
(12:38):
It doesn't really take that long, but I've learned you
need to do that because anything can happen, get caught
up in customs, Like you can be going back and
forth with the factory for like a week or two
just because you sent everything exactly how you want it.
And they are going to find something that they mess up.
So it's just a thing. So I say the timeframe
is about like I said two two and a half months.
(13:01):
Shipping can be a month if you ship via C.
I've never shipped V A C. I always ship air,
So it takes about four days. So we order something
from the factory today because we like our inventory. We
have inventory here in the storage. We have the big
inventory at the factory, like thousands of decks. So I
(13:22):
sell out of a deck, I'm like, hey, I need
one hundred more decks. They just put them on the
plank a flight here. So for order today, I can
probably have them by today is Friday. Probably have them
by like Monday or Tuesday air. But it's way more expensive.
So it just depends on how you ship it.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
Okay, But your biggest advice for somebody that wants to
potentially do that is once they find a supplier and
kind of figure out that process is to get thinking
at all, possibly need to actually go to the factory
and see it first hand it First.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Things first, do not buy any bulk of anything before
you get a sample. Do not that's not by any
bulk before you get a sample, Get samples.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
I don't care how good you think they are, how
cheap they are. Get samples. That's minimum.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
If you have the ability to go to the factory,
go to the factory, because like I said, it's gonna
be finish it. It's gonna be like different materials, different
things that you're just not going to be able to
see everything they have available on the internet. And then also,
like I said, just the getting getting a sample, Oh
I want to see what this looks like in this color.
Order to sample, you gotta wait for the sample. If
(14:29):
you could just go, you can see everything that day.
They can show you everything they can do, just way easier.
You can see the conditions of the factory. It's not
sweatshops like people think. It's not like kids in there
making Shoot, that's not true. It's actual factories, like people
are there working. So if you can go, go, But
if not at a minimum.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Order samples.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Okay, what part of Chinel is it?
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Our decks are manufactured in shen Zen? I think, okay, yeah, Shengjin.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
I've spent some time out there, so I was just wondering,
like yeah, you kind of go in and like with that,
what was that whole process, like that trip overall, Like
so about that.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
So when I went to China, I've been three three times,
three or four times. When I went the first sign
for Black Spades, I was also going because that first
time that I went was around the time that we
started Black Spades and at that time, we had already
gotten a deal or yeah, partnership with Amazon, so we
(15:27):
were producing decks for Amazon and phone chargers as well.
So when I went out there, I went out there
to see my factor that produces the decks, and also
a couple other electronics factories because we wanted to produce
some car mounts that we made and then the chargers.
So what I did was I got the addresses of
(15:48):
each factory, the factory that I had the best relationship with,
like the best rapport. I sent them the addresses and
I was like, hey, can you help me map out
my trip to know like what's close to what and
how should I do that? They told me how to
map it out. If you go to a country where
you don't speak the language, it's good to like have
a print out of your hotel in the language, with
(16:10):
the address and all of that. So if you get
in a cab and you can't speak it. I just
showed the cab like I'm trying to get here. I
did that, and then you know, I flew in the
first factory, had a driver that came and picked me
up like holding my name up the sign. They drove
me to their factory, drove me to my hotel and
kind of explained to me how to how to ride
like the train and all of that and to get
to the next places. So yeah, that was pretty much
(16:32):
the process. Just asked like for help.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
Yeah, I mean, it seems like it would be you know, Phillos.
Don't know, it seems like you'll probably be intimidating. What
you're saying is like one day, want you to come
out there too, Like these factories actually make it some
of the easiest. Look, they need you to come out
there too. Second of this business.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Oh yeah, yeah, they if you tell them that they're coming.
And that's another thing too, when you're sourcing your products.
A lot of times if you're going to Ali Baba,
sometimes what will happen is you have like third party
suppliers on there too. So what they'll do is they'll
order a bulk of whatever it is that you want
to do and then resell it to you, but they
won't tell you that they're not the factory. So if
(17:04):
you say I want to come out, even if you're
not serious about coming, you'll know how welcoming they are.
If it's really the factory, you're not because if it's
the factory, they want you to come, and a lot
of times they'll send a car for you, they'll pick
you up after you meet with them, they take you
out to dinner or they take you out to lunch
and like feel you to the brim. Like so, yeah,
they are really hospitable, like really really really welcoming in China.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
Okay, now, how do you know this is gonna work? Again?
Now you're going out here. You got the idea, you
do them design, but like you got to market it.
You gotta test it. Like, how did you know that
Black Spades was actually working this something?
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Because I did it. I knew it's gonna work because
I was doing it. It don't matter what I do,
it's gonna work. That's just my philosophy. But I knew
it was gonna work because it was just a gaping
hole in the market. Like I said, I had never
heard of a spades deck. I just had never heard
of that that. I had never heard of it at
that time, twenty eighteen into twenty eighteen. Coming in twenty nineteen,
(18:00):
I had never heard of cars that had black people
on them. So I was like, knowing how big Space
is to the culture, like what it means to us
for us to have a deck of cards that have
black people on it, I was like, I know that's
going to work. Then the way that we designed it
is we designed it in a way that if you
don't know how to play, it helps you learn how
(18:20):
to play because it's labeled. So I was like, we're
not going to be arguing over a big joker a
little joker. If you don't know what to is hired
than the other two for the people that play joke
jokerduce due, then that's going to be labeled. We're going
to tell you what tow is to take out. So
I was like, now, not only do I appeal to
the people that play space, I also appeal to people
that want to learn. So I'm like, I know it's
(18:41):
going to work. I just it was never a doubt
that it was going to work, you know, And.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
How did you start taking at the market, like, how
did you start getting in front of people?
Speaker 2 (18:48):
So what we did was originally, at first I had
a business partner who basically financed like the startup cost.
So I said, Hey, here's a plan. I want to
do a campaign on Kickstarter. The Kickstarter is not necessarily
to raise the money. I just know that on Kickstarter
things have the propensity to go viral on Kickstarter and
(19:10):
that could be like a marketing thing too. So I
was like, we're gonna already have our decks produced, but
we're gonna do the Kickstarter anyway, you know, just as
like a way to kind of help generate BUTZ. What
I then did was I made a list of everybody
that I knew that had any type of influence. So
you know, Instagram was it like what it is now
(19:31):
back then, but I was like, okay, anybody that had
over X amount of thousands of followers. I made a list,
and I was like, I broke it down in the
three sections people that I know if I call them
they're gonna post for me, people that I'm pretty sure
that they would, and then just long shot, I'm gonna
ask anyway. Then it's probably like a list of like
one hundred people, Like I said, we already had the decks.
(19:52):
So before the Kickstarter campaign even started, we already had decks.
So I shipped those decks to a out to everybody.
I shipped decks out to everybody. I was like, Hey,
we want to launch this on July first. If you
can just make a post, everybody posted on the same day.
On top of that, what happened was there were I
(20:13):
had been talking about black Space, showing the process, showing
the designs, showing me going to Egypt, showing me going
to China. So people have been following the build up
of it for months, so people were anticipating it too.
For those people that were anticipating it, like how can
I buy? How can I buy? I was like, We're
going to put them on sale on this date. Everybody
spend money on this date. So then that way, my
(20:34):
thought was, we're going to trigger this algorithm on Kickstarter
to cause you know, if you do so much percentage
of sales, it'll push it up. So then I was like,
we're going to set our goal to something minimum that
I know that we can meet. So then that way
we exceed like fully funded in the first day or
something like that, right, that was the idea. It was
(20:55):
still more than I thought that we could have done.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
It was five thousand.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
I was like, I don't know if we're going to
do it, but it's not that unfeasible, so set it
to that. So I was already thinking like, how does
this algorithm work? How do would this marketing work? All
of that, we also I also made a list of
like black business pages on Instagram, So we got like
bi black Economics, black Wall Street, like those pages that
(21:19):
you see that's like this black person is the youngest
to graduate.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Whatever.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Those pages you can pay them to post for you.
So I made a list of a bunch of those pages.
Then we figured out, okay, these pages are the ones
we want to go with, set a budget aside to
pay them, study how they I studied how they communicate
with their audience, studied the fonts that they use in
their posts, and then we just created a post that
looked like their posts so that it didn't look like
(21:47):
we paid for it, and then said okay, we want
you to post it on this date. So we had
everything kind of culminated for that launch date. Everything hit
on that launch date. We did over five thousand dollars,
I think, and that first that first twenty four hours,
twenty four hours, we had done our goal.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
But that was kind of what it was, Okay, just
hitting it on all the cylinders, reaching out the influencers,
really pushing them right right, and getting the thing out
into the market.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Yeah, just getting it, just getting it out, Like just
thinking about what you have available to you, and like
how can you leverage what you have available to you
to the best of your ability? And I'm kind of
a marketing person anyway, so my brain is always thinking
of how do I how do I do this in
a way that people don't realize that I'm doing this?
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Yeah, and it works, you know what I mean. So
that's pretty much what it was.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
What have you learned, like having gone through everything, Like
what would you do different now based on what you
just know about the business if you had to relaunch
this again and you wanted to be successful, Like, would
you do anything different?
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Like I said, I have a four we're a business partner. Definitely, Definitely,
it doesn't matter who are you going in the business with.
Put it on paper and right I was telling somebody
like people are going to be people, gonne people so
the paper doesn't it's not going to influence how they behave.
But what it will do is it'll alleviate a lot
of problems legally. So stuff being on paper, you go
(23:20):
to the judge, the judge could just be like, we
don't even need.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
To take this to trial, black and white.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Rulin your favor, Yeah, two three years, thousands of dollars safe.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
So that's the first thing.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
The second thing that I would do is I would
get into accelerated programs and like incubator programs and all
of that way earlier because it's a lot of stuff
that I learned in those programs that I'm like, man,
I wish I had known this before. You know, I
probably would be a lot better with money. Like I've
always been one of them people like, oh I need money,
(23:50):
I'm gonna just go make it. I'm gonna just hustle
it up. I've never well, I'm growing to be. Let
me make wiser decisions, you know, because it's always is me,
I just make more money, and like that is it's exhausting.
And I think finally, the thing that I would do
is be more starting out. I would have been more
intentional about finding the people to do the work instead
(24:14):
of me trying to do everything because I don't have to.
I don't have to do everything, Like why am I
doing this? Anybody could do that? You know, I need
to be doing the things that only I could do.
So maybe that those.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Things absolutely now, Like what's if you kind of think back,
is there been a moment or decision that you made
that like really kind of like changed everything, whether you
know good or bad? Like has it been like an
inflection point moment that kind of jumps out and is like,
you know what, this was good but like right here
this thing happened and like it was different after that.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Ah, Man, several of those. There's been several of those moments.
It's not anyone. The ones that stand out most aren't
necessarily the positive moments, Like this was a decision that
I made and it was a win because I said
that when I do something I expect to win.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
I don't. I don't do it hoping and praying.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
I'm like, if I'm going to do it, it's gonna wine,
like because I'm gonna find a way to make it win.
So the inflection points for me that stand out are
like the ones that didn't work.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
The way it was supposed to be. I have a few.
A few. Man, it's a few.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Man, Like, yeah, it's a few, And I don't know
how to say them in a way that how do
I articulate it in the way that it helps somebody
else to not make that decision or decisions like that.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
It's been a few. It's been a few.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
I got to come back and figure out a way
that I can say it in a way that's beneficial
to people.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
But yeah, okay, Well tell me about Blacker.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
What's that? So? Blacker is our Spades app.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
So because of the work that I did with with
Doppart Media, the creative agency, So working with different brands.
A lot of the brands that we work with were
tech companies, so Google, Twitter, Amazon, We've.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Worked with Microsoft.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Well about black Spades work with Microsoft, but we worked
with a lot of different tech companies, and I've had
the privilege of like actually being in the headquarters and
seeing how they work and everything, and kind of learning
how tech works, and so just being like tech adjacent
for so many years, I started realizing, like, man, wait
a minute, if you want to thrive and succeed, you
(26:24):
need some type of tech element. Or you're not gonna
You're not going to be around. So I'm thinking, okay,
how do I get that tech element. The other thing
was I had this vision of black Spades, like people
playing spades on like PlayStations, xboxes, and I'm like, how
to create that? So I got my masters from Full Seal.
I reached out to them at Full Sale because it's
(26:46):
like a super dope gaming program.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
That's there.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
My degree was in film, but when I spoke to
the gaming people, they were like, hey, don't try to
make a video game. Make an app. First, prove the concept,
then come back and make the video game. So I
was like, okay, cool. So that's kind of where it started, was,
you know, just wanting to make a video game, wanting
to get my feed in the tech in some form,
(27:12):
and then that's where Blacker came about.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
It's basically the Spades app.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
Okay. And my guess is you kind of went through
a very similar experience like in building the cards out right,
like finding the right team, finding the people, I get
somebody to help you that whole look. As a former developer,
I can tell you and I'm sure you've got some
stories about that.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Now, Yes, like that all of this stuff. Whenever you
have an idea, it's all easy. The concept is easy.
You want to create a deck of cards, find a company,
give them design, printum sell them easy. You want to
build an app, find a developer, give them the spects
of whatever it is, build it, deploy it easy. The
(27:49):
complicated part is you're working with people. You know what
I mean, You're working with people, You're working with limited budget,
You're working with limited knowledge, you know what I mean,
And particularly if're getting into something that you don't know.
Like I said, I was tech adjacent, I'm non technical.
I don't know how to cold you know. I know
a little bit of HTML, like a little bit. I
know how to make something bold, you know what I'm saying,
(28:12):
Like I know how to make something bold in word Press.
But but you know it, just man, it was a monster.
It is a monster. Raising the money is one thing. Yeah,
Fortunately I had the relationships where I was able to
raise enough money and kind of keep the train going.
But being not technical, everybody ain't built the same, you
(28:34):
know what I mean. Like everybody doesn't have the same
integrity as you. Everybody doesn't have the same honesty as you,
And so people will take advantage of your ignorance, and
I got taken advantage of you know.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
I had no shade to them. I should have known.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
But it is what it is.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
So there, it's just been a process like you do it.
This works or doesn't work. You figure out what doesn't work,
You go back to the drawing board, raise some more money,
fix it, you know what I mean. And that's kind
of what it is.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
No look, man, look I know I've seen it first hand.
I would tell people all the time. You know, it's like,
you know, this is one of the things you can't
cut corners with. If it sounds too good to be true,
sometimes it probably is, especially in that space, right. You know,
people don't realize how much, how much you know, money,
time and effort it takes to like build some of
these things out. And if you know how many people
came to meet telling me when they wanted to build
the next Facebook for five hundred dollars.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
And it's like when I tell them, no, it's not
gonna work, they're kind of looking at me like I'm
making it up. I'm like, I'm not making this up.
But then they go find somebody. It's like I can
do it, and then every single time that person ran
off with their money, they don't have none to show
for it.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
I'm like, yeah, man, like run off of the money,
run off with the cold everything.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
And my situation. It wasn't the code, like I knew
to get my code and my situation. It was the database.
And so I'm like, I know, I might now make
sure I got my code. I got the code when
I went to move to another team, so I'm like,
you know what, I can't work with you anymore, Like
it ain't no hard feelings man, this business.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
But I got to cut ties. I might make sure
I got all my stuff got it.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Went to the next evel and they were like, hey,
where's the database, Like we can't do anything without the database.
And I'm like what And I'm like it was a
fight to try to get it, and so finally I
was like, don't worry about.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
It, We'll just rebuild it.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
So it ended up having to rebuild it. So yeah, man,
run off with Yeah, it's a monster building an app.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
It is.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Man.
Speaker 3 (30:18):
We look man, before we get out of here, tell me, man, like,
where do you see all this going? Like what are
the next five years like for like Black Spades and Blacker.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Prayerfully we will have gotten to a point where it's
kind of household name, you know what I mean, or
at least you know quasi household name.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
If I say, what's the name of that app?
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Fan base? You know what fan base is. People know
what fan base is. Whether they have it or not,
people know what fan base is. And I would hope
to at least have Blacker to that level, or at
least have Black Spades to that level, you know what
I mean. I think like a brand like Atlanta influence
is everything, or like you think about or you think
(31:00):
about like the Trap Music Museum when people come to Atlanta,
people know that whether you live in Atlanta or not.
So my goal is to have Black Spades kind of
like that, and Black are like that in the black
community where we know it, you know what I mean,
Whether you use it or not, whether you play with
it or not, it's a name that when it said,
people recognize it.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
So that's my goal on the lower end.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
On the bigger end, my goal is like why don't
we have platforms like Instagram or like how Twitter is
where when it's election time, Trump sits down with Elon Musk.
It's like, dang, we didn't have anything on that scale
that we could have sat calmly down. And so, you know,
with Blacker, I hope because it's so much more than
(31:39):
the Spades app. It's going to have a social element
to it too. But I hope to get it to
that point. But at a minimum, I just want it
to be for us and for us to know what
it is, and you know, for it to resonate with us.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
Okay, all right, and we got out of here. Mantell folks,
how can they support you? How can they get a
copy of Black Spades? Can they play black or yet?
Like give them all the things? Man?
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Okay, yeah, So Black Spades, Blackspace dot com, b l
v c K Spades dot com, Blacker.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
We're doing the beta right now.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
So if you reach out to me, you can reach
out to me on Instagram. My instagram is Emaki Creates.
I don't check the black Space I g DM. So
I'm sorry, y'all, but if you reach out to me
on Instagram you want to get the the beta of Blacker,
just reach out to me. Let me know what type
of phone you have, Android, the iPhone. I'll send you
the link you can download it and then you know,
(32:28):
we should be in an app store, hopefully by the
end of September. I'm sorry, yeah, by the end of
September early October, I'm hoping that we'll be in the
app store, so you can just download it there.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
Okay, man link when you get up out of here,
man space. But you know what I'm saying, Man, appreciate Hey, Mackie,
appreciate you pulling up congratulations and all the things.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
You know.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
I am a Black Spade supporter. I appreciate it. And uh,
you know what that man we out that's the Pope.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
All right.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
You've been listening to button Nomics and I'm your host,
Brandon Butler. Got comments, feedback? Want to be on the show?
Send us an email today at Hello at butternomics dot com.
Butter Nomics is produced in Atlanta, Georgia at iHeartMedia by
Ksey Pegram, with marketing support from Queen and Nikki. Music
provided by mister Hanky. If you haven't already, hit that
subscribe button and never missed an episode, and be sure
(33:16):
to follow us on all our social platforms at butter
dot atl Listen to betteron Nomics on the iHeartRadio, app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I was doing a job.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
I think it was for Twitter, and at that point
it was gonna be the biggest money I ever saw.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
So I'm like excited, happy, like I can't wait get
this money.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
But then when I thought about it, my bills were
so far behind that I was like, man, by the
time I get this check, I'm just gonna get caught up.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
I'm not gonna have anything.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
So I was like, I got to create something where
I make it one time, I don't have to work
to do it, and I can keep making money. And
then I was like, wait a minute, I can design
a deck of cards. Can't be that hard, can't be
that expensive? It was hard and expensive.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Everybody holds another episode of Butter. I'm the host Brandon
Butler found the CEO of Butter atl And today I
got somebody special in the building. Man, got my guy,
even Mackie up in here, he black spades. How you doing, bro,
I'm doing good.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Did you say somebody special for everybody? Or like, am
I really somebody?
Speaker 3 (00:51):
I say for a lot of people, But everybody's special, Man,
everybody's special. You know what I'm saying. MANE, I'm good,
I'm good. How you feeling if I was any better,
I be you brother.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Hey, I like that, Like I gotta start using that.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Hey man, look man, I appreciate you pulling up. You know.
We always like to do something little fun, a little different.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
You know.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
So I know some folks like you know, tell us
about yourself and do all this, but we do on
button Nomics is we asked chat cheapt to write a
bio for our guests.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Oh that is so dope. I literally looked myself up
on chat GPT yesterday.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Okay, I was.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
I saw somebody do it online and I was like,
let me put my name in and see what happens.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
But yeah, go ahead, Okay, So I had chat cheept
write a bio for you know what I'm saying, we're
gonna read. I want you to tell me is it on?
Is it off? You know, not need to upgrade all
that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Okay, you're right, Yeah, I'm good, All right.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Eve Macki is an Atlanta based photographer, entrepreneur, and the creative
force behind Black Spades, the culture rooted lifestyle brand that
he began as a custom deck of playing cards celebrating
Black Spades culture. He's also the founder of Dope Art Media,
a creative agency specializing in photography, video production, graphic design,
and marketing strategy for brands like Twitter, Amazon, and Mercedes Benz.
His work blends creativity, storytelling an active doesn't, notably documenting
(02:01):
the Black Lives Matter protests across multiple cities. Today, mak
It continues to merge art, culture and entrepreneurship, using his
platforms to empower communities and build innovative ventures, like the
upcoming Spades based app Blacker.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Yep spot on spot on, Yeah, yes, spot home. Oh man,
it's crazy.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
See man, look, I'm telling its crazy.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Like how it does that? That's pretty crazy? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Well let me ask you, man, I appreciate you pulling
up man. Now, obviously you know you you talk about
yourself because I remember we were talking offline like you
know what Brandon like people thought. People don't know, man,
I'm an artist. I'm kind of a designer. First, you
have a background in fashion and film production, like you know,
how did How does how does all that background experience
kind of appro influence how you approach business?
Speaker 2 (02:44):
I think that it influences it because like basically, you know,
when you when you start something, when you create whatever,
like venture or whatever path it is that you want
to create, whether it's successful or not, you learn something
along the way. And so what I found is just
all the different things that I do have made it
easier for me to kind of transition into new things
(03:04):
or to create new things because there's some element of
something that I've done before that I like lean on
to create the new things. So that's probably the biggest part,
is just the experience and you know, resources, relationships, stuff
like that.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Okay, and what's the background of dop part media? How'd
that get started?
Speaker 1 (03:19):
So?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Dop Park got started because when I was at Florida State,
I started the homecoming fashion show that was out there,
and so I have a homeboy named Chris Parsons, like
super duper dope creative, and he filmed it. But after
he filmed it, he never edited the video. So fast
forward like a few months I had graduated, but actually
fast forward like a year I graduated.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
I was in Miami.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
He was in Miami touring with Tea Paying when t
Paying first pop and he was like sleeping in the office,
like down there, and so I was like, bro, come
stay with us. When he stayed with us, he was like, oh,
I got that footage from your fashion show, but I'm
gonna teach you how to edit it because he didn't
want to edit. So he sat me down like first
like early version of final cut, and I picked it up,
(04:03):
started editing on final Cut, and then kind of started
incorporating video editing into what I do. Fast forward, I
was working at a nightclub on South Beach and as
a marketing director, so I had to do a lot
of video for a lot of different brands. And so
when I left that job, a lot of the brands
like Remy Martin, were like, Yo, we still want video.
(04:24):
I was hiring people to shoot it. I was editing.
The shooters were making all the money, so I was
like I had to buy a camera. And so from
there is one thing kind of led to another, and
I realized, like I designed, I can shoot, I can edit,
so I might as well make this a thing.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
So that's kind of what it was.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Okay, and like, well, those kind of projects you were
working on more like smaller products to you kind of decided,
you know what, I want to focus on this agency
and started getting bigger clients.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Well, actually what happened was I was actually an artist
back then, Like a musical artist.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
I was a rapper, yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
And so from making music and producing music, I already
like I had done shows, I toured like stuff like that,
like independent artists level, yeah, and so I already had
a host of like relationships already. So when I decided
to get into video production, I already had like pretty
decent relationships. So when they found out I was doing it,
(05:15):
they kind of a meg, can you do this for me?
So my first clients were like the Remy Martins and
stuff like that was one of my first clients. So
I didn't really do smaller stuff until after I got
more established and more people found out about it. But
I actually started with bigger clients believe it or not.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
Oh man, Now, how did that influence it? Because again,
like a lot of post will get those opportunities out
of the gate, right, that's a that's a different beast,
Like how were you able to just come out and
start working with those bigger clients?
Speaker 2 (05:39):
And well, like I said, I already had relationships with
them on other stuff, right, So when they found out,
they were like hey, And I think it was more
of them supporting what I was doing because the work
definitely ain't the work that I do.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Now, you know what I mean? So I think that's
I mean, that's what it was.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
And honestly doing that is kind of what inspired me
to leave music alone because I was like, man, this
music is costing me money and this, you know, this
camera's making me money. So I was like, let me
stack my money up a little bit and I'm gonna
come back when I'm in a better financial spot to record.
And then I was off to the races. Man like
that first two three years went by so fast, and
(06:18):
I was like, em, I feel like going to that studio. Yeah,
so I just never looked back.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
Okay, okay, Now black Spades that came up because you
were watching a math video on YouTube, Like how did
black Spades come to be?
Speaker 2 (06:30):
So black Spades came to be because I was doing
a job.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
I think it was for Twitter.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
We're about to do a job, and at that point,
it was gonna be the biggest money I ever saw.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
So I'm like excited, happy, like but I can't wait
get this money.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
But then when I thought about it, my bills were
so far behind that I was like, man, by the
time I get this check, I'm just gonna get caught
up and I'm not gonna have anything. So in the
back of my mind, I was thinking I needed to
create something anyway.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
I had to create.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
I got to create something where I may at one
time I don't have to work to do it, and
I can keep making money. So one day, while watching
YouTube videos, I came across the video where a guy
was describing a mathematical concept using a deck of cards,
and I was like, Yo, those cars are dope. And
then I was like, wait a minute, I can design
a deck of cards. Can't be that hard, can't be
(07:18):
that expensive. It was hard and expensive. It was very
much hard and very much expensive. And anyway, that's kind
of where the idea came from. It's like I can
design a deck of cards. And so through the next
couple weeks or so, I was just kind of trying
to think, like, why would anybody want to buy my cards?
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Why?
Speaker 2 (07:35):
What can I do that when make somebody want to
buy them? In one today in the shower, one of
them shower thoughts, I was like, oh, you black, we
play spades. I've never seen a spades deck. And I
was like, wait a minute, I don't think I've ever
seen a deck of cards. With black people on it
at all at that point. And so that's kind of
where it was how it started.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
Now, you say, designing a deck of cars is hard
and expensive, give me some condent. What do you mean
by that? Like, what's hard? What's expensed? Like? What do
people not know about something like? Because it seems like
simple at a high level, it's it's sometimes I say, like,
it's simple, but it's not easy.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Right, It's simple, but it's not easy. So, for example,
the first thing is designing it, right. I'm a designer,
and so the concept that I had in my mind.
I was sitting there designing for weeks, like almost a month,
and it was just not coming out right. And I'm like,
you know what, I don't I don't have to design this.
It's people that designed cards every day. Let me just
pay somebody to do this.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
So that was that.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
There's a lot of research that went into it. I
researched ancient Egypt, because you know the cars Egyptian theme.
I researched ancient Egypt for like three months. I went
to Egypt. Once I got the first decks of cards back,
the gold on the packaging wasn't the right shade of gold.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
I'm like, no, you got to fix this gold.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
When I got the first decks back and we shuffled
the cards, they didn't shuffle right. So I flew to
China just for them to measure the thickness of the
card like the paper and be like okay, yeah, the
thickness is off by this much, and they got the
So it was just such a process. And then expense
is like, it's not cheap. This is not like for
me to produce a new deck. It's like five thousand
(09:09):
dollars out the gate, and now I got to sell
it and that because you got to market it and
all that. So it's it just was not as cheap
or easy as I thought it was going to be.
And admittedly I probably made it harder because it was
a certain standard that I wanted to set with the deck.
I didn't want them to be cheap. I wanted to
be nice. So I probably made more work for myself
than it needed to be.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
But yeah, you flew in China just to make sure
they measured the thickness of the cars, Like, tell me
about that story.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Yeah, So when you when you produce a product abroad,
a lot of times there's gonna be a language barrier
even if they speak English. The other frustrating thing about
it is the time difference. So it's like a twelve
hour time difference from their twelve hours ahead. So if
I want to have any type of fluid conversation, I'm
(09:56):
up at three in the morning, you know, having a
conversation with somebody that speaks English but doesn't speak English.
How we speak English. And then you compound it because
you're speaking through text like you're messaging somebody, and so
it's just such a slow, arduous process that I was like,
you know, this is gonna be one hundred times easier
(10:16):
to just fly there in this talk to them in
person and get it done. So that's kind of the
reason why I did it that way.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
How did you find your life? I mean cause again,
like even there's a lot of people that want to
do products and want to do things like that, and
you know a lot of that stuff is going to
come from overseas. Like how did you go through the
process of even like finding a manufacturer that could even
like produce these for you?
Speaker 2 (10:46):
So originally we found a manufacturer that we thought was here,
and you well, originally I tried to get it manufactured
with bicycle. It was like two three months of emailing
them constantly before I even got a response. When I
got a response, it was just unsustainably expensive, Like it
just didn't even make sense. I'm like, what, this don't
(11:07):
even make sense. So I found another company that I
thought was here in the US and went with them first.
And then while I was talking to the rep, she
said something about the factory and I was like, the factory.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
I thought you were the factory.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
And when I realized that they were the middle people,
I was like, oh, so I can get it cheaper.
So then I went on Ali Baba and then I
found you know, playing card manufacturers. I reached out to one.
I sent them the decks. I'm like, can you make
something that disquality of better? They sent me samples back.
I'm like, oh yeah, this is dope. I ended up
flying to the factory that first time to check the
factory out to just kind of see what type of
(11:45):
options they have. And that's which is the best way.
If you can go to the factory, go because it's
not every You're not gonna say everything online and you know,
went to the factory the first time, locked in with
them and then that's when they you know, we did
the first run.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
I shuffled.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
I'm like, yeh nah, these don't shuffle right, and then
went back to get that thickness right, and then you
know we've been good since.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
What's the what's the time? Like what kind of timeline
are we talking about to like, you know, getting stuck
because I know it takes a minute for stuff you
shipped overseas get made. So again, I'm just asking for
people to have ideas. Yeah, yeah, look, I don't gate keep.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Like people call me all the time like I want
to start a card company, Like how do I do it? Like,
I'm gonna give you my company, just don't tell nobody
my company is on the system. But yeah, so the
process to creating a deck. Our process is, let's say
you want to do a buttonmics deck, I would tell you, hey,
we need at least two two and a half months.
(12:38):
It doesn't really take that long, but I've learned you
need to do that because anything can happen, get caught
up in customs, Like you can be going back and
forth with the factory for like a week or two
just because you sent everything exactly how you want it.
And they are going to find something that they mess up.
So it's just a thing. So I say the timeframe
is about like I said two two and a half months.
(13:01):
Shipping can be a month if you ship via C.
I've never shipped V A C. I always ship air,
So it takes about four days. So we order something
from the factory today because we like our inventory. We
have inventory here in the storage. We have the big
inventory at the factory, like thousands of decks. So I
(13:22):
sell out of a deck, I'm like, hey, I need
one hundred more decks. They just put them on the
plank a flight here. So for order today, I can
probably have them by today is Friday. Probably have them
by like Monday or Tuesday air. But it's way more expensive.
So it just depends on how you ship it.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
Okay, But your biggest advice for somebody that wants to
potentially do that is once they find a supplier and
kind of figure out that process is to get thinking
at all, possibly need to actually go to the factory
and see it first hand it First.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Things first, do not buy any bulk of anything before
you get a sample. Do not that's not by any
bulk before you get a sample, Get samples.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
I don't care how good you think they are, how
cheap they are. Get samples. That's minimum.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
If you have the ability to go to the factory,
go to the factory, because like I said, it's gonna
be finish it. It's gonna be like different materials, different
things that you're just not going to be able to
see everything they have available on the internet. And then also,
like I said, just the getting getting a sample, Oh
I want to see what this looks like in this color.
Order to sample, you gotta wait for the sample. If
(14:29):
you could just go, you can see everything that day.
They can show you everything they can do, just way easier.
You can see the conditions of the factory. It's not
sweatshops like people think. It's not like kids in there
making Shoot, that's not true. It's actual factories, like people
are there working. So if you can go, go, But
if not at a minimum.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Order samples.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Okay, what part of Chinel is it?
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Our decks are manufactured in shen Zen? I think, okay, yeah, Shengjin.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
I've spent some time out there, so I was just wondering,
like yeah, you kind of go in and like with that,
what was that whole process, like that trip overall, Like
so about that.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
So when I went to China, I've been three three times,
three or four times. When I went the first sign
for Black Spades, I was also going because that first
time that I went was around the time that we
started Black Spades and at that time, we had already
gotten a deal or yeah, partnership with Amazon, so we
(15:27):
were producing decks for Amazon and phone chargers as well.
So when I went out there, I went out there
to see my factor that produces the decks, and also
a couple other electronics factories because we wanted to produce
some car mounts that we made and then the chargers.
So what I did was I got the addresses of
(15:48):
each factory, the factory that I had the best relationship with,
like the best rapport. I sent them the addresses and
I was like, hey, can you help me map out
my trip to know like what's close to what and
how should I do that? They told me how to
map it out. If you go to a country where
you don't speak the language, it's good to like have
a print out of your hotel in the language, with
(16:10):
the address and all of that. So if you get
in a cab and you can't speak it. I just
showed the cab like I'm trying to get here. I
did that, and then you know, I flew in the
first factory, had a driver that came and picked me
up like holding my name up the sign. They drove
me to their factory, drove me to my hotel and
kind of explained to me how to how to ride
like the train and all of that and to get
to the next places. So yeah, that was pretty much
(16:32):
the process. Just asked like for help.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
Yeah, I mean, it seems like it would be you know, Phillos.
Don't know, it seems like you'll probably be intimidating. What
you're saying is like one day, want you to come
out there too, Like these factories actually make it some
of the easiest. Look, they need you to come out
there too. Second of this business.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Oh yeah, yeah, they if you tell them that they're coming.
And that's another thing too, when you're sourcing your products.
A lot of times if you're going to Ali Baba,
sometimes what will happen is you have like third party
suppliers on there too. So what they'll do is they'll
order a bulk of whatever it is that you want
to do and then resell it to you, but they
won't tell you that they're not the factory. So if
(17:04):
you say I want to come out, even if you're
not serious about coming, you'll know how welcoming they are.
If it's really the factory, you're not because if it's
the factory, they want you to come, and a lot
of times they'll send a car for you, they'll pick
you up after you meet with them, they take you
out to dinner or they take you out to lunch
and like feel you to the brim. Like so, yeah,
they are really hospitable, like really really really welcoming in China.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
Okay, now, how do you know this is gonna work? Again?
Now you're going out here. You got the idea, you
do them design, but like you got to market it.
You gotta test it. Like, how did you know that
Black Spades was actually working this something?
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Because I did it. I knew it's gonna work because
I was doing it. It don't matter what I do,
it's gonna work. That's just my philosophy. But I knew
it was gonna work because it was just a gaping
hole in the market. Like I said, I had never
heard of a spades deck. I just had never heard
of that that. I had never heard of it at
that time, twenty eighteen into twenty eighteen. Coming in twenty nineteen,
(18:00):
I had never heard of cars that had black people
on them. So I was like, knowing how big Space
is to the culture, like what it means to us
for us to have a deck of cards that have
black people on it, I was like, I know that's
going to work. Then the way that we designed it
is we designed it in a way that if you
don't know how to play, it helps you learn how
(18:20):
to play because it's labeled. So I was like, we're
not going to be arguing over a big joker a
little joker. If you don't know what to is hired
than the other two for the people that play joke
jokerduce due, then that's going to be labeled. We're going
to tell you what tow is to take out. So
I was like, now, not only do I appeal to
the people that play space, I also appeal to people
that want to learn. So I'm like, I know it's
(18:41):
going to work. I just it was never a doubt
that it was going to work, you know, And.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
How did you start taking at the market, like, how
did you start getting in front of people?
Speaker 2 (18:48):
So what we did was originally, at first I had
a business partner who basically financed like the startup cost.
So I said, Hey, here's a plan. I want to
do a campaign on Kickstarter. The Kickstarter is not necessarily
to raise the money. I just know that on Kickstarter
things have the propensity to go viral on Kickstarter and
(19:10):
that could be like a marketing thing too. So I
was like, we're gonna already have our decks produced, but
we're gonna do the Kickstarter anyway, you know, just as
like a way to kind of help generate BUTZ. What
I then did was I made a list of everybody
that I knew that had any type of influence. So
you know, Instagram was it like what it is now
(19:31):
back then, but I was like, okay, anybody that had
over X amount of thousands of followers. I made a list,
and I was like, I broke it down in the
three sections people that I know if I call them
they're gonna post for me, people that I'm pretty sure
that they would, and then just long shot, I'm gonna
ask anyway. Then it's probably like a list of like
one hundred people, Like I said, we already had the decks.
(19:52):
So before the Kickstarter campaign even started, we already had decks.
So I shipped those decks to a out to everybody.
I shipped decks out to everybody. I was like, Hey,
we want to launch this on July first. If you
can just make a post, everybody posted on the same day.
On top of that, what happened was there were I
(20:13):
had been talking about black Space, showing the process, showing
the designs, showing me going to Egypt, showing me going
to China. So people have been following the build up
of it for months, so people were anticipating it too.
For those people that were anticipating it, like how can
I buy? How can I buy? I was like, We're
going to put them on sale on this date. Everybody
spend money on this date. So then that way, my
(20:34):
thought was, we're going to trigger this algorithm on Kickstarter
to cause you know, if you do so much percentage
of sales, it'll push it up. So then I was like,
we're going to set our goal to something minimum that
I know that we can meet. So then that way
we exceed like fully funded in the first day or
something like that, right, that was the idea. It was
(20:55):
still more than I thought that we could have done.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
It was five thousand.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
I was like, I don't know if we're going to
do it, but it's not that unfeasible, so set it
to that. So I was already thinking like, how does
this algorithm work? How do would this marketing work? All
of that, we also I also made a list of
like black business pages on Instagram, So we got like
bi black Economics, black Wall Street, like those pages that
(21:19):
you see that's like this black person is the youngest
to graduate.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Whatever.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Those pages you can pay them to post for you.
So I made a list of a bunch of those pages.
Then we figured out, okay, these pages are the ones
we want to go with, set a budget aside to
pay them, study how they I studied how they communicate
with their audience, studied the fonts that they use in
their posts, and then we just created a post that
looked like their posts so that it didn't look like
(21:47):
we paid for it, and then said okay, we want
you to post it on this date. So we had
everything kind of culminated for that launch date. Everything hit
on that launch date. We did over five thousand dollars,
I think, and that first that first twenty four hours,
twenty four hours, we had done our goal.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
But that was kind of what it was, Okay, just
hitting it on all the cylinders, reaching out the influencers,
really pushing them right right, and getting the thing out
into the market.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Yeah, just getting it, just getting it out, Like just
thinking about what you have available to you, and like
how can you leverage what you have available to you
to the best of your ability? And I'm kind of
a marketing person anyway, so my brain is always thinking
of how do I how do I do this in
a way that people don't realize that I'm doing this?
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Yeah, and it works, you know what I mean. So
that's pretty much what it was.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
What have you learned, like having gone through everything, Like
what would you do different now based on what you
just know about the business if you had to relaunch
this again and you wanted to be successful, Like, would
you do anything different?
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Like I said, I have a four we're a business partner. Definitely, Definitely,
it doesn't matter who are you going in the business with.
Put it on paper and right I was telling somebody
like people are going to be people, gonne people so
the paper doesn't it's not going to influence how they behave.
But what it will do is it'll alleviate a lot
of problems legally. So stuff being on paper, you go
(23:20):
to the judge, the judge could just be like, we
don't even need.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
To take this to trial, black and white.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Rulin your favor, Yeah, two three years, thousands of dollars safe.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
So that's the first thing.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
The second thing that I would do is I would
get into accelerated programs and like incubator programs and all
of that way earlier because it's a lot of stuff
that I learned in those programs that I'm like, man,
I wish I had known this before. You know, I
probably would be a lot better with money. Like I've
always been one of them people like, oh I need money,
(23:50):
I'm gonna just go make it. I'm gonna just hustle
it up. I've never well, I'm growing to be. Let
me make wiser decisions, you know, because it's always is me,
I just make more money, and like that is it's exhausting.
And I think finally, the thing that I would do
is be more starting out. I would have been more
intentional about finding the people to do the work instead
(24:14):
of me trying to do everything because I don't have to.
I don't have to do everything, Like why am I
doing this? Anybody could do that? You know, I need
to be doing the things that only I could do.
So maybe that those.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Things absolutely now, Like what's if you kind of think back,
is there been a moment or decision that you made
that like really kind of like changed everything, whether you
know good or bad? Like has it been like an
inflection point moment that kind of jumps out and is like,
you know what, this was good but like right here
this thing happened and like it was different after that.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Ah, Man, several of those. There's been several of those moments.
It's not anyone. The ones that stand out most aren't
necessarily the positive moments, Like this was a decision that
I made and it was a win because I said
that when I do something I expect to win.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
I don't. I don't do it hoping and praying.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
I'm like, if I'm going to do it, it's gonna wine,
like because I'm gonna find a way to make it win.
So the inflection points for me that stand out are
like the ones that didn't work.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
The way it was supposed to be. I have a few.
A few. Man, it's a few.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Man, Like, yeah, it's a few, And I don't know
how to say them in a way that how do
I articulate it in the way that it helps somebody
else to not make that decision or decisions like that.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
It's been a few. It's been a few.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
I got to come back and figure out a way
that I can say it in a way that's beneficial
to people.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
But yeah, okay, Well tell me about Blacker.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
What's that? So? Blacker is our Spades app.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
So because of the work that I did with with
Doppart Media, the creative agency, So working with different brands.
A lot of the brands that we work with were
tech companies, so Google, Twitter, Amazon, We've.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Worked with Microsoft.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Well about black Spades work with Microsoft, but we worked
with a lot of different tech companies, and I've had
the privilege of like actually being in the headquarters and
seeing how they work and everything, and kind of learning
how tech works, and so just being like tech adjacent
for so many years, I started realizing, like, man, wait
a minute, if you want to thrive and succeed, you
(26:24):
need some type of tech element. Or you're not gonna
You're not going to be around. So I'm thinking, okay,
how do I get that tech element. The other thing
was I had this vision of black Spades, like people
playing spades on like PlayStations, xboxes, and I'm like, how
to create that? So I got my masters from Full Seal.
I reached out to them at Full Sale because it's
(26:46):
like a super dope gaming program.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
That's there.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
My degree was in film, but when I spoke to
the gaming people, they were like, hey, don't try to
make a video game. Make an app. First, prove the concept,
then come back and make the video game. So I
was like, okay, cool. So that's kind of where it started, was,
you know, just wanting to make a video game, wanting
to get my feed in the tech in some form,
(27:12):
and then that's where Blacker came about.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
It's basically the Spades app.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
Okay. And my guess is you kind of went through
a very similar experience like in building the cards out right,
like finding the right team, finding the people, I get
somebody to help you that whole look. As a former developer,
I can tell you and I'm sure you've got some
stories about that.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Now, Yes, like that all of this stuff. Whenever you
have an idea, it's all easy. The concept is easy.
You want to create a deck of cards, find a company,
give them design, printum sell them easy. You want to
build an app, find a developer, give them the spects
of whatever it is, build it, deploy it easy. The
(27:49):
complicated part is you're working with people. You know what
I mean, You're working with people, You're working with limited budget,
You're working with limited knowledge, you know what I mean,
And particularly if're getting into something that you don't know.
Like I said, I was tech adjacent, I'm non technical.
I don't know how to cold you know. I know
a little bit of HTML, like a little bit. I
know how to make something bold, you know what I'm saying,
(28:12):
Like I know how to make something bold in word Press.
But but you know it, just man, it was a monster.
It is a monster. Raising the money is one thing. Yeah,
Fortunately I had the relationships where I was able to
raise enough money and kind of keep the train going.
But being not technical, everybody ain't built the same, you
(28:34):
know what I mean. Like everybody doesn't have the same
integrity as you. Everybody doesn't have the same honesty as you,
And so people will take advantage of your ignorance, and
I got taken advantage of you know.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
I had no shade to them. I should have known.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
But it is what it is.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
So there, it's just been a process like you do it.
This works or doesn't work. You figure out what doesn't work,
You go back to the drawing board, raise some more money,
fix it, you know what I mean. And that's kind
of what it is.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
No look, man, look I know I've seen it first hand.
I would tell people all the time. You know, it's like,
you know, this is one of the things you can't
cut corners with. If it sounds too good to be true,
sometimes it probably is, especially in that space, right. You know,
people don't realize how much, how much you know, money,
time and effort it takes to like build some of
these things out. And if you know how many people
came to meet telling me when they wanted to build
the next Facebook for five hundred dollars.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
And it's like when I tell them, no, it's not
gonna work, they're kind of looking at me like I'm
making it up. I'm like, I'm not making this up.
But then they go find somebody. It's like I can
do it, and then every single time that person ran
off with their money, they don't have none to show
for it.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
I'm like, yeah, man, like run off of the money,
run off with the cold everything.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
And my situation. It wasn't the code, like I knew
to get my code and my situation. It was the database.
And so I'm like, I know, I might now make
sure I got my code. I got the code when
I went to move to another team, so I'm like,
you know what, I can't work with you anymore, Like
it ain't no hard feelings man, this business.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
But I got to cut ties. I might make sure
I got all my stuff got it.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Went to the next evel and they were like, hey,
where's the database, Like we can't do anything without the database.
And I'm like what And I'm like it was a
fight to try to get it, and so finally I
was like, don't worry about.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
It, We'll just rebuild it.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
So it ended up having to rebuild it. So yeah, man,
run off with Yeah, it's a monster building an app.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
It is.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Man.
Speaker 3 (30:18):
We look man, before we get out of here, tell me, man, like,
where do you see all this going? Like what are
the next five years like for like Black Spades and Blacker.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Prayerfully we will have gotten to a point where it's
kind of household name, you know what I mean, or
at least you know quasi household name.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
If I say, what's the name of that app?
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Fan base? You know what fan base is. People know
what fan base is. Whether they have it or not,
people know what fan base is. And I would hope
to at least have Blacker to that level, or at
least have Black Spades to that level, you know what
I mean. I think like a brand like Atlanta influence
is everything, or like you think about or you think
(31:00):
about like the Trap Music Museum when people come to Atlanta,
people know that whether you live in Atlanta or not.
So my goal is to have Black Spades kind of
like that, and Black are like that in the black
community where we know it, you know what I mean,
Whether you use it or not, whether you play with
it or not, it's a name that when it said,
people recognize it.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
So that's my goal on the lower end.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
On the bigger end, my goal is like why don't
we have platforms like Instagram or like how Twitter is
where when it's election time, Trump sits down with Elon Musk.
It's like, dang, we didn't have anything on that scale
that we could have sat calmly down. And so, you know,
with Blacker, I hope because it's so much more than
(31:39):
the Spades app. It's going to have a social element
to it too. But I hope to get it to
that point. But at a minimum, I just want it
to be for us and for us to know what
it is, and you know, for it to resonate with us.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
Okay, all right, and we got out of here. Mantell folks,
how can they support you? How can they get a
copy of Black Spades? Can they play black or yet?
Like give them all the things? Man?
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Okay, yeah, So Black Spades, Blackspace dot com, b l
v c K Spades dot com, Blacker.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
We're doing the beta right now.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
So if you reach out to me, you can reach
out to me on Instagram. My instagram is Emaki Creates.
I don't check the black Space I g DM. So
I'm sorry, y'all, but if you reach out to me
on Instagram you want to get the the beta of Blacker,
just reach out to me. Let me know what type
of phone you have, Android, the iPhone. I'll send you
the link you can download it and then you know,
(32:28):
we should be in an app store, hopefully by the
end of September. I'm sorry, yeah, by the end of
September early October, I'm hoping that we'll be in the
app store, so you can just download it there.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
Okay, man link when you get up out of here,
man space. But you know what I'm saying, Man, appreciate Hey, Mackie,
appreciate you pulling up congratulations and all the things.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
You know.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
I am a Black Spade supporter. I appreciate it. And uh,
you know what that man we out that's the Pope.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
All right.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
You've been listening to button Nomics and I'm your host,
Brandon Butler. Got comments, feedback? Want to be on the show?
Send us an email today at Hello at butternomics dot com.
Butter Nomics is produced in Atlanta, Georgia at iHeartMedia by
Ksey Pegram, with marketing support from Queen and Nikki. Music
provided by mister Hanky. If you haven't already, hit that
subscribe button and never missed an episode, and be sure
(33:16):
to follow us on all our social platforms at butter
dot atl Listen to betteron Nomics on the iHeartRadio, app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Host
Brandon Butler
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