May 12, 2025 • 61 mins
This week Cal talks advocacy and public lands with Democratic Senator Martin Heinrich of New Mexico and Republican congressman Ryan Zinke of Montana. We talk public lands and public hands, and do individual voices matter in Washington?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
From Meat Eaters World News headquarters in Bozeman, Montana. This
is Col's Week in Review with Ryan cal Calahan.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Here's Cal.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Hey, there are Cals we can review. Listeners, Welcome to
another fascinating episode.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
This is a special drought this week.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
We're changing up the order in order to stay as
timely as possible, which is not really possible with the
current state of news. I had the pleasure of sitting
down with Democratic Senator Martin Heinrich out of New Mexico
and Republican Congressman Ryan Zinki out of my home state
here in Montana to talk public lands, time on the Hill, advocacy,
(00:52):
things like that. I think it's important to call out
the fact that this is a Democrat and Republican and
the similarities here on our natural resources and our ability
to roam. All right, we're going to get back to
our regularly scheduled programming and cadence after this week, and
keep in mind this might be a little dated by
(01:14):
the time you hear it. I'm crossing my fingers currently
right now. Just read an article where Congressman Zinki has
standing up to the rest of the Republicans in the
budget reconciliation process. We need other people to follow this
guy's example. On the Republican side of the aisle, Martin
(01:35):
Heinrich in New Mexico is doing a great job holding
the line on public land sales. And I think one
thing that you're going to notice here is if you're
paying attention to the news, they keep saying this is
a particular issue or a special issue in Western states
or just Montana, you need to take a listen to
(01:58):
this here podcast and call your representatives, your senators and
let them know that you love public lands, public wildlife
and access to them and it is not just a
Montana thing or just a Western thing. Hopefully this inspires
you a little bit. It's a peel back behind the curtain.
I hopefully enjoyed Mark Kenyon and I's podcast where we
(02:23):
at least tried to walk you through our week on
the hill. This is one of the results that came
out of it. I hope you enjoy it. Please write
into Ask c Al that's ask Cal at the Meat
Eater dot com. Let me know what's going on your
neck of the woods and let me know if you
have any questions. As we cover politics over here, Cal's
wee can review thank you so much. Can't wait to
(02:45):
hear from you. Without further Ado. Congressman Ryan Zinki, Hey,
Cal's wee can review fans. This is another legislative update.
I guess we're in session.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
We're in DC.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
We've been running around in on the hill talking public lands,
public water's, public wildlife access to them, and talking about,
you know, how how the whole crazy meat eater for
profit world can advocate for wild places alongside nonprofits doing
some wearing a couple of hats this week. I'm the
(03:20):
national or North American board chair for back country Hunters
and Anglers. I'm not sure if you're aware of that.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
Congressman, I am, and and thank you for your service.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Well that's quite a statementself. Well, it's an important issue.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
And like I said, today, we're talking with Congressman Ryan
Zink out of my home state of Montana. And uh,
we've covered this on the show already, but one of
the unequivocal shining stars of the first hundred days of
the Trump administration here is the Public Lands and Public
Hands Act. It's something I think we see as non partisan,
(03:57):
something folks should be jumping on. So we we're lucky
enough to get some time with the congressman a day
to talk about public lands and public hands well.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
And a lot of it is, you know, growing up
in Montana. You know, I would say, you know, the
experience I had growing up. You know, we in Montana,
we inherited a lot of our outdoor experience from the
big guys, from Teddy, Roosevelt, Pinchot, and the experience and
why we live in Montana for a lot of us
(04:27):
is because of the great outdoors, the experience, the access
to hunting and trails, and it has changed over the
course of time. When I grew up, there was never
a problem going out and hunting or fighting, access to rivers.
A lot of the rivers didn't have a lot of
people on them, and you know, fast forward today there's
a lot more people on the river. I give men example,
(04:49):
I was in the southern part of the Madison and
I was amazed how many people were you know, during
a snowstorm last week there was a blizzard, there was
a run in the valley and the US and there
was a there was a boat every hundred yards and
a lot more houses that on that section, uh than
(05:10):
I remember. And certainly, and in Montana's changed when someone
buys land, they often the first thing to do is
put a fence up right, and so the access to
our rivers and streams and the conditions of our forests
has largely changed. And you know, the challenge is this.
You know, we were we were given to a great
(05:30):
degree of our outdoor experience again by the by the
great ones. The challenge is now going forward the next
hundred years. How are we going to manage them? And
as you as you see property and getting getting getting
sold and in fences going up, there's the new set
of challenges of systems. You know, how do we protect
(05:52):
the water shed systems, how do we protect migration of
big game and animals because you know, as they become
more pressure and fractionated, you got to make sure the
movement of those systems, you know, maintains and our outdoor
experience that we love to a degree is protected. And
a lot of it is management, how we manage it
(06:15):
and the importance of manage it so we can you know,
the next generation so they have the same opportunity that
we love and protect. And then there's some challenges out there.
But it's not a Republican or Democrat issue. This is
an American issue, and those of us in the West
(06:36):
we see it more acutely. But it's an important issue
and we can't solve it from one side of the
aisle or the other. This is again, this is an
American issue, and it will take all of us going
together to recognize the importance of our outdoor experience and
then putting in place ways we can manage it better
(06:56):
so we don't have to burn down our force every year.
So trail access is better, so you know, we don't
have to use ONYX to determine, you know, what the
public access site is, and how do you get on
the corners because you know, you know, on the corners
of f come up in Wyoming, they'll spill over to Montana.
(07:18):
And you know, if you have a section of public
land somewhere on those four miles, because remember a section
is one by one by one, somewhere there should be
public access into that property. It may not be the
corner because you know when they when they put it together,
corner might be over cliff. So somewhere on that public
access because it's our land, it's all of our land,
(07:39):
and all of us share thinking and responsibility to make
sure we we we protect it and and we use
the land wisely. And if we do moneying or one
of the resources must be a good boy scout. At
the end of the day, let's make sure our camp
site is as good or better as and what we
(08:00):
found it.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
I mean that sounds great to me. I got a
way in on the western perspective and eastern perspective. I
was just just last week basically came from West Virginia
to DC and floated with our West Virginia Chapter of
back Country Hunters and Anglers.
Speaker 4 (08:18):
Did you float on the golly?
Speaker 1 (08:19):
We did the New River Gorge up?
Speaker 4 (08:21):
Yep, Yeah, I've climbed a New River gorge. Nice section
of property.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Unreal, I mean unreal. And we floated with.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Members of the West Virginia Department of Natural Resources and
I literally asked them if we were in a closed
section of river, because we floated in camp for two
nights and in three days we saw not a single
other boat on the whole river. And I was like,
you guys, do not understand. I keep asking you about
(08:52):
this because in Montana right now, it doesn't matter what
river you're on. You can't go a day, let alone
three days without seeing in another boat.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
Yeah, and there's some secret spots, but you know, certainly
on the Madison, the Yellowstone, the Gut and Your and
the and the Flathead. You know some forks, but you
got to go further and further away, and there's a
lot of pressure on our rivers, and you know, not
how a river want. We don't want to look like
the Sacramento River.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
We'd love to have duck hunting like the Sack does.
But you know one thing that I've experienced out here
in you know, my my blink and eye a week
here in d C. Is what public land is. And
when I bring up public lands, I'll get well, Ryan,
don't worry. We're not going to sell national parks. And
I have to say, well, you know, sir ma'am, with
(09:44):
all due respect, I'm talking about places where you can
bring guns and have your dogs off leash, our members
at b h A, our customers throughout the whole meat
eater world. We like those BLM tracks that you probably
don't see as valuable. We like our National fur Us
places where you can get out there and hunt well.
Speaker 4 (10:04):
And a lot of the Forest Service land you can
graze on it. A lot of the BLM land you
can graze on it. And in even wilderness the nineteen
sixty four Wilderness Act, you know, it did allow grazing
because there was a great compromise between you know, the
grazers and the preservationists the mirrors if you would. But
(10:28):
it is still available for not single use. You know,
recreation isn't monolithic. You have a lot of aspects of recreation,
of hiking, of hunting, those type of things and have
that and available you know, West. I think sometimes we
take it for granted that you know, hunting opportunities are there,
(10:50):
and you know, herds go from private land to public land,
and we're seeing a lot of pressure on public land
and a lot of the herds will stay on private
land because they figure it out, you know, pretty soon.
But the migration corridors, for instance, is a really big
issue because you know, the herds transit through you know,
different sections of land in private and public and as
(11:15):
you know, more people move out west, bigger fences and
the property gets to a degree fractionated as far as
access and movement. You got to look at these corridors
and make sure we have a healthy system. Means that
big game has to have an opportunity to go to
winter range to summer or grange great grazing and in between.
(11:36):
And last night we're at the Teddy Roosevelt Conservation Product
dinner and one of our great ones talked about these
migration corridors are kind of like veins in a body,
is that you have to have freedom of movement, and
a lot of times it does go through private land
and conservation easements, but also working with landowners. You know, example,
(12:00):
sheep oftentimes they won't go over a fence. You know,
I'll call go over a fence. You know, a bear
will go through a fence, but sheep sometimes will go
around forty or fifty miles if there's a fence. So
sometimes how you design a fence to make sure they
are permeable for the wildlife, making sure that they can
get over a road. When I was secretary, we put
(12:24):
an order in place, you know, to look at corridors,
to look at the next hundred years how to protect
those those valuable corridors of movement. And what we found
that a lot of times because of fences, because of
highways and roads, the herds no longer move freely between
the places they need to to maintain health, and we
(12:46):
can mitigate that sometimes by overpasses on roads, underpasses where
it makes sense, making sure we work with landowners to
look at the fence design so movement is there. But
that's all important a part of managing what I think
is our greatest assets in this country. You know, our
(13:06):
America's best idea was the parks, but not too far
behind was the rest of the public lands. And they
should connect and they should work together. What I found
as a secretary is that you might have a BLM holding,
a Bureau of Land Management holding next to a park,
(13:26):
and then next to a forest. Now the park is
managed by Department of Interior BLM's Department of Interior through BLM,
and the forest service is managed by the US Department
of agg through the US Forest Service. But a lot
of times the trails don't connect. The management plans are
very siloed. And if we're going to manage systems, which
(13:50):
we should, we're gonna have to work together, not only
between Republicans and Democrats and the public, but also within
the government making sure are different you know, agencies and
departs from the government. We should have more or less
seamless policies that make sense to protect the equal system
as it is. You know, watersheds are key to it,
(14:11):
but also movement of game flyaways. You know, where our
migratory birds can land and and to a degree maintain
that path as they go north and southat migration of
big game can go either way. It depends on where
and where the where the vegetation is. But it is
about looking at systems and making sure our systems are
(14:33):
are healthy in the future.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
And I want to I think you touched on on
something about you got to work together to ensure this connectivity.
And I know you've been working across the aisle on
several things that I think the hunting and angling communities
would be very supportive of. And would you mind just
(14:56):
telling us a little bit about that work.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
All the there's a you know, and you know up
front we live it seems to be a very partisan world.
You know, it's left and right, and you see the
anger on both sides. But on public lands it's it's
not a blue or red issue. It's a red, white
and blue issue. And how you work together is you
(15:19):
find some common ground. And what we've done is we've
introduced to public lands and public hands. We've with you know,
the corridor, which is largely bipartisan, and how you kind
of get the anger out of the room as you
find an opportunity to work together. And I'll say, you know,
public lands and public hands is one of those bills bipartisan, right,
(15:41):
and how you kind of get rid of the anger
out of it as you work together, you gain trust
and you start thinking, you know, looking at things that
are common ground and easy, and then you can go
the next thing because you have a relationship and there's
an element of trust together. But it's it's steps along
the way and some of these hard challenges that are
(16:02):
country face. You know, we're gonna have to work together.
You can't. You can't solve things from one side of
the aisle or the other. You know, largely the middle
just wants things done right and we want to make
sure we have accountability. We want to make sure that
the outdoors is there. And how you get to that
is you start with the on the processes, largely you know, bipartisan,
get a lot of support, and then then you tackle
(16:25):
that that's a success. Then you go to the next
one and the next one and ultimately then you're working
together as we should as a country. And look, you know,
I spent twenty three years in the Navy Seals. I
fought overseas U and I fought for America, not against Americans.
And and here under these past few years, it's been
(16:47):
it's been pretty rough. Just you know, if just a
citizen just want to get things done, it seems like
you're going to go to one side of the isle
or next. And I'd say that that's move towards, you know,
our side of the aisle, as Americans. And then and
that's let's use public lands as that vehicle to get there.
Let's make a bridge, you know, rather than a fortress.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Oh, I love it.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
And did you you know, you came out right out
of the gate as you have in the in the past,
and said you're drawing a hard, I think redline you
said on on public land sales. Did you experience any
any pushback on that when you made that statement.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
Well, you know, there's certain things that I don't bend.
Don I don't bend on the Constitution the United States.
You know, as a former seal officer, I fought overseas.
I've lost a lot of friends. You know fighting for
the Constitution, and I won't bend uh. If you don't
like the constitution, there's a process to change it. We've
had several amendments over to overtime. You know, I'm good
(17:51):
to that. But I'm going to defend the Constitution. And
I'm also going to defend our heritage, which is public lands.
And I give the analogy of a hotel. If you
don't like the management or how a hotel is managed,
you don't sell the hotel. You you get new management
in and and yes, or our forests are burning down.
We can be a lot more innovative using best science.
(18:14):
You know best use greatest good, longest term. Oh that's
that's that's that's the American conservation ethic. You know, it
wrapped up in a nutshell, and that's pig show and
and and Roosevelt. But you know, to advance the idea
that somehow you're going to sell land and that will
cure our problems. Number one in the in the country.
(18:34):
We don't have a public lands problem, to per se.
We have a spending problem. And let's focus on what
the problems are. It's our it's our spending. But that's
not sell the hotel on our public lands and and
lose what I think is the greatest of assets we
have in this country is our public lands. And to
(18:55):
be able to share that experience the next generation you want,
it's gone, it's gone. You know. You look at management
of of of game. You know, what's the right population
of wolves, what's the right population of bears? All that
can be managed you know, to a degree greater too
using science. You know, if we can track you know,
(19:18):
Taliban in the in the in the hills of Afghanistan,
I think we can figure out herds and movement a
lot better and use technology to manage so much more better.
So it benefits us all.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
I know, outside of your office here you have like
the current rates for.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Our our beef prices and green prices.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
And this is all tied together, that public private landscape
when we string these migration corridors together. And is there
are there any tips you'd like to offer for kind
of working on both sides of the fence for us,
you know, public land owner is is kind of the
BHA model. But there's not one of us that doesn't
(20:05):
spend a little time on both sides of the fence.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
Well, you know, and and let's look at the population
of people that go out and hunt and fish and recreate.
They're not for one side of the aisle. You know,
as a seal, I never asked a person whether the
Republican or Democrat. I didn't care that I don't care now.
And those that enjoy the outdoor experience there if there
are from both sides of the aisle. So the guys
(20:29):
that's work together to make sure that we protect and
preserve and and I go. You know, I'm never been
an advocate for selling or transferring public land. I'm veamingly
against and that's a red line with me, the Constitution
and selling and selling land. And I've made that known
and I'll stand by it. But I'm not alone. You know.
(20:50):
I would say most people that that hunt and fish
and enjoy the outdoors enjoy the outdoors both on private
and public land, and they understand the inter relationship between
the two. And yeah, most of us would would would
prefer we manage it a little better using using things.
But this is this is this again. We were given
(21:12):
a legacy, uh that not every country has. And if
you go overseas, no one has the park system, no
one has the public land system, the recreational opportunities that
we do in the in this country, and I think
sometimes you need to step back and realize what what
the opportunities we were given and then both the responsibility
(21:34):
of us all to make sure we pass that out
to the next generation so they have the same opportunities
we do. Can we make it better? Absolutely more efficient,
absolutely better science one hundred percent, but let's work together
to do it. And that's not that's not fight on
every issue all the time. And you can't learn if
(21:55):
you don't listen. So it's all it's okay to disagree,
but let's not be disagreeable. Doing it has actually open
up our ears and listen, because you know, the other
side might might have some pretty good points, uh you know,
on it, And because I think most of us that
enjoy the outdoors, we we we we want the same thing.
(22:17):
How to get there might be a little different. But
if we listen to each other and and mitigate and
get the anger out, then we can solve the problems.
So we don't have these massive forest fires each year
that you know, if you're elderly, it's going to affect
your lungs. But but also it's going to affect our watersheds,
it's going to affect our habitat and then and that's
(22:38):
look at at better ways to make sure you you
you pull the excess timber, the dead and dying timber out.
You know, some of our forests in the northwest of Montana,
you know you have a canopy, but everything under the
canopy is dead because the trees are too thick. And look,
you know, elk don't eat trees, and either de bears.
(22:58):
So sometimes it's better to re look at make sure
we don't have forests that are monolithic. You know, put
a little more aspen in there, opening up a little
more so you can have the grasses in there in
feeding because you know, bears oftentimes will go where the
food is and then they're going hundreds and hundreds of
miles because the forests are dead inside. So let's let's
(23:20):
look at a better management schemes and improve it and
that we can do together.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
Well, that sounds darn good to me. I really appreciate
your time, Congressman, And from a Montana kid to another,
I really appreciate how you're representing the state right now
in this public lands issue. And I would really like
to hear at another time how we can support getting
more d's and more rs signed onto this.
Speaker 4 (23:45):
Thing, absolutely, and then we can all do our part,
you know. And this should not be an r D issue.
This should should be you know, American and a Montana issue,
and all of us it should should recognize. I think
how lucky we are to live in Montana, and how
lucky we are to have the experience that others fought
(24:06):
for that we enjoy, and also how much of responsibility
it is to make sure the next generation has the
same opportunity. So I appreciate everything you to do, and
I look forward to be out on the hunt with you.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Oh man, that'd be a killer. Yeah, that'd be a killer.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
Killer, no pun intended.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
All right, all you cals, we can review listeners. I'm
wrapping up a week on the hill here in Washington,
d c. Our Nation's capital. One of the many freedoms
we get here as citizens of these United States is
you get to actually walk through these buildings where our
duly elected representatives are ideally representing our interests, and sometimes
(24:48):
you got to stop by and ask them to stay
on task, which was kind of my goal here. We've
been talking a lot about public lands, waters, wildlife, and access.
We had a Ducks and Limited banquet this week. We
had the Teddy Roosevelt Conservation Partnership Policy Meeting as well
(25:09):
as their Capital Conservation Awards dinner, and it's been a
conservation themed week here in DC. But save the best
for last, sitting down with someone we've known for a
long time, Senator Martin Heinrich out of New Mexico, and
we're just going to have a wrap up candid conversation
(25:30):
with the Senator on the state of conservation and public
lands here one hundred days in to a new administration.
Senator Heinrich, how you doing.
Speaker 5 (25:40):
You know, I'm holding up okay, but a lot of
challenges right now.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Seems like a lot of work here.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
I don't think everybody's just putting a show on for
me being here this week.
Speaker 5 (25:52):
No, it's pretty much a normal week. Although it's great
to have so many really focused quality organizations in town
to sort of refocus some of my colleagues on just
how important conservation is and how foundational it is, I
think to the American experience and everybody gets pulled in
(26:12):
a million different directions. So having the du dinner and
the TRCP dinner and so many people visiting. That's really
helpful to get my colleagues focused on what matters.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
This is going to sound redundant, but it doesn't matter
when people show up and make an appointment and come
in and knock on your door one percent.
Speaker 5 (26:41):
And to have people who care about this stuff from
the home states and home districts of individual senators and
members of Congress. That's that's one of the most powerful
things that these organizations do, especially the ones that are
membership based, is that they're able to find those those
(27:01):
spokespeople who live right in your district or right in
your state if you're a senator, and speak to these
issues from that perspective, that that really helps. I think
center how important it is for every member to be
paying attention to this stuff.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
That goes, even if you're not attached to a group,
just an individual.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
Yeah, I'll tell you you know my experience. You know,
you don't ever don't always get to speak to your
congress person or or senator. You're often working with staff.
Does staff matter?
Speaker 5 (27:41):
Oh my gosh, yes, yeah, they're the subject matter experts, right, So,
like all of us as members have some background that
we know well, and we really you know, can sort
of hold our own in and for me that's natural
resources and energy. But we have to cover so much
any different things, right, And so you have these subject
(28:03):
matter experts and they're the staff and being able to
engage directly with them is absolutely important.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
And what what's on the on the top of your
your pile right now? What are you engaging in?
Speaker 4 (28:19):
For?
Speaker 5 (28:20):
For me, it we have never I've been through a
few cycles of this sell off the public lands stuff.
It comes and it goes, and uh, it's not it's
not my first rodeo, but I've never seen it so
close to actually happening as right now. And I think
(28:41):
one of the reasons is historically, you know, we've seen
legislation from members in Utah, for example, to to sell
off public lands. We had the whole Jason Chafitz drill
back in the day when I was in the House
of Representatives. But that kind of legislation in the Senate
requires sixty votes, so it was never even though it
(29:01):
was it was very timely and we had big fights
on the hill about it.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
It was very public, it was very opublic.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
It wasn't on the verge of happening.
Speaker 5 (29:12):
We've never been closer to it actually happening than right now,
and I think it's important for the public to understand.
One of the reasons why that is is because there's
something called budget reconciliation that where you can set policies
so long as they have a budget impact with a
(29:33):
bare majority, so fifty one votes in the US Senate,
and your public lands could be divested off. We could
see BLM lands disappear, maybe other public lands, and that's
never been on the verge of happening like it is
right now. And to see so many of my colleagues,
I mean, when we first it's a complicated process. It's
(29:57):
kind of a two step process. The first half of
that is sort of goal setting but not written in stone.
And we had an amendment to say hands off our
public lands, and all but two Republicans voted against that amendment.
That worries me because I know that this is bipartisan,
Like I hunt and fish with people who don't agree
(30:18):
with me on a lot of political issues, and across
the spectrum in New Mexico, the people who care about,
live on, love our public lands are all across the
political spectrum. And yet it was we had an overwhelming
vote on one side of the aisle to not protect
(30:39):
those public lands, and so that really worries me. I
don't think we've ever been this close to this being
reality before.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
Obviously, you know, we've talked about Senator Lee.
Speaker 4 (30:51):
This is.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
You know, a goal of his and he's been out
in front with it for a long long time, so
much so that I you know, on the conservation side
of things, things last forever, it takes a long time
to get things done, and there's all sorts of burnout.
(31:14):
This guy does not experience burnout on this topic.
Speaker 5 (31:19):
Look, I have a good relationship with with Senator Lee,
he's the chairman of my committee. But we come from
very different perspectives on this. I mean, I view public
lands as the anvil with which the American experience, especially
in the West, was created, and you know, I grew
(31:41):
up as an outfitter guide taking people out to experience
those public lands. They're central, in my view to our
rural economies in New Mexico. And I don't want to
speak for Senator Lee, but it seems like he views
them as a burden, as something negative, and I just
(32:03):
I couldn't have a more different perspective on that.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
So many of the.
Speaker 5 (32:08):
The memories, the experiences that make me who I am,
come from time spent with friends and family on public lands,
and that my hope is that that perspective, you know,
wins the day.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
Yeah, I mean, that's something we share in common. I'd
tell folks all the time. I'm if I come away
from my like meat eater life having nothing but cool
critters on the wall, it's just going to be a
life squandered. Because all these experiences that I've had, I
feel indebted to others to make sure that they at
(32:47):
least have the option. I don't need them all to
do it, but they need to appreciate, hopefully why I
we do it and have the ability to go out
and create some memories out there, some experience answers on
their own.
Speaker 5 (33:01):
And I've I've been so fortunate and to be able
to travel the world and to see that what we've
built here in the United States of America is truly unique.
I mean, we we come from this European history where
it's landed gentry who get to do those things right,
(33:24):
It's people of wealth and means and property, they get
to do those things and certainly there are plenty of
people here in the United States who have some amazing
trophy l property.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
But I don't care.
Speaker 5 (33:37):
Who you are, how how skinny your wallet and your
bank account are. In the United States of America, wildlife
and public lands are of public trust, and that means
anybody can can go and do this stuff. I mean,
when I was poor in my twenties and and you know,
didn't didn't barely have a bank account, I was still
(34:00):
going out and having amazing experiences on for Service Land,
on Blm land. That's unique in the world. That is
not normal. It is something we have created. In part
that we created in opposition to you know, where we
came from and the European feudal history, that as we
(34:23):
built this democracy, we were saying, there's a better way
to do this stuff.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
There's a more democratic way to do this stuff.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
And I definitely want to get into that. But there's
this kind of phrase that I've encountered multiple times this week,
and it kind of comes in two forms. Oh, Ryan,
don't worry about your public lands. We're not going to
sell national parks. And then I have to explain, well,
national parks are special, they're great but I'm talking about
(34:52):
places where you can have a dog off leash and
shoot guns. And those aren't your national parks.
Speaker 4 (34:57):
No.
Speaker 5 (34:57):
I hear that all the time, Like I've seen secretaries
of interior say that we're not talking about the special places,
We're just talking about all that other stuff, all that
yellow stuff on the map. I'm like, that's where I
spend my time on that yellow stuff on the map.
Like your listeners know that. Like when you look at
a map of your home state, you know what that
(35:19):
green means, and you know what the state blue means,
and you know what the yellow means. And national parks
are not the experience that most sportsmen and women in
the West are relating to on a daily basis. They're
really important. They drive our economies. I love our parks,
but I don't want to go spend a time with
(35:39):
the crowd. I want to get outside and relate directly
to the landscape. And that's those are the places that
have not only fed my soul, but literally fed my
family as my boys grew up.
Speaker 3 (35:53):
And then there's also the oh Montana and their relationship
with public lands that that's unique, you know. I talk
about the membership of backhuntry, hunters, and anglers. I talk
about the customer base of meat eater, like, we can't
do what we do if it was just one state. No,
(36:14):
and why do we have this perspective? But I'm hearing that,
Oh no, no, you're just different in Montana. And I
don't think that's a perspective that just belongs to a
certain few Republicans or a certain few Democrats. But where
how do we reach these folks and provide that connectivity?
Speaker 5 (36:36):
I mean, I think we have to have people from
every state come and tell their story in places like
the Halls of Congress, to make it clear that, you know,
people in Florida really care about their national wildlife refuges
and people in Virginia really love their national for us, like,
this is not a Montana and New Mexico thing, This
(36:58):
is a United States of America. And people don't always
even think about the like they don't always even the
places that they care about that they have access to
that are public lands, they don't always think of.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Them as public lands.
Speaker 5 (37:14):
They think of them as, oh, my national forest or
my wildlife refuge.
Speaker 4 (37:18):
And so.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
You know, I've noticed this.
Speaker 5 (37:25):
The way that people try to say, oh, Montana is different,
as if to like put it to the side and
make you this special bucket that doesn't apply to everywhere else.
But it's like this, people are just as passionate in
my home state of New Mexico about public land as
they are in Montana. And I think if you talk
(37:45):
about place anywhere in the country, you'll find that that
if you personalize it and make it about you know,
the places that really matter to you. It runs the gamut.
It is is a fifty state issue.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
So I spoke with Congressman Zinki here earlier today, in fact,
and we spent some time talking about like working across
the aisle, and he had some great things to say.
I'm super happy that he's representing Montana with the attitude
that he expressed of we got a lot more in
(38:23):
common than we have not right absolutely, how to like
build those That's how you.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
Get things done in Washington, d C.
Speaker 5 (38:30):
By the way, is that you find those places where
you really can build a broad coalition. And you know,
Congressman Zinci is somebody I've known for a long time.
I think the first time I met you in person
may have been at the Sabinoso Wilderness when he came
out and he and I went horseback riding into Sabino
(38:51):
so and you know, getting on the landscape together changed
perspectives that it made things possible that when we were
just talking about them in Washington, DC over a map,
it made things real and attainable that weren't before. And
we were able to work together on that. And I
know he's working with my one of my members of Congress,
(39:11):
Gave Basquez in southern New Mexico. They're in different parties,
they grew up in very different places. They have different perspectives,
but public lands are bringing them together around this idea
that we shouldn't be selling off our public lands.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
Two great stories there.
Speaker 3 (39:27):
One when we did meet in the Sabioso Wilderness, the
Senator you know, saved saved me from uh exploring this centipede,
this giant centipede that I found that I was like,
this is an amazing animal. He's like, oh, you don't
want to touch that. I don't know the name of it,
but it was impressive. Huge and then and venomous and
(39:50):
venomous had that when and that was such a neat project,
right it was a landlocked wilderness area.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Capitol w wilderness.
Speaker 3 (39:59):
That's right, something we hold with very high regard in
the outdoors community, and that took a lot of groups
coming together to you know, have those Yeah.
Speaker 5 (40:13):
I mean I actually before I was a member of Congress,
I used to be the access chair UH for the
New Mexico Wildlife Federation and and I got talked into
doing that because I wanted to figure out how to
get access to the Sebinoso and UH. And it took
a long time, but but we made it happen. And
(40:36):
today you know that that that you know, for people
in Las Vegas, New Mexico, for example, that is just.
Speaker 4 (40:44):
A really.
Speaker 5 (40:46):
Important place for them to be able to access and
to spend time and people are thrilled.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
But that's open to the public now.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
Oh absolutely.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
I think there's a good example of of the the
timelines that we've kind of referenced a couple of times here.
The Good sam Act made it through in December of
last year. And I know that was something that you
were working hard on. Do you want to explain that
real quick?
Speaker 4 (41:11):
Sure?
Speaker 5 (41:12):
So that's a bill that Jim Rish and I were
able to get passed in December of last year. But
we were at the end of the relay race, right
it started. I think the first version of Good Samaritan
mining reform was introduced by Max Bacchus in nineteen ninety nine,
so it was a twenty five year effort to get
(41:33):
that done. And what it does is we have these
abandoned mines all over the country, especially in the West
and Iraqi Mountains, but truly every state has its abandoned mines.
And if you want to go in as a local
chapter of Trout Unlimited or backcountry Hunters and Anglers and
(41:53):
clean up one of these mind sites, the second you
touched that site. You don't just own the liability for
if you mess something up and hurt your neighbor. You know,
if you dump some tailings into a stream and pollute
that stream downstream and hurt your neighbors, that's understandable, but.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
You you actually own the.
Speaker 5 (42:17):
Liability for having created that site in the first place,
which is kind of bonkers, right, And no one will
clean those places up because of it, because you know,
it may only cost one hundred thousand dollars to clean
up a mind sight that is actually hurting a trout fishery,
but you might own five million dollars worth of liability
for that project. Nobody can afford that. So we created
(42:40):
this legislation to say, if you mess something up along
the way, you're on a hook for that you have
you own that liability. And sometimes things go wrong and
you should be responsible for that, but you shouldn't be
responsible for having created that site. And so what this
does is it gives the ability of that local trout
(43:00):
Unlimited group or the backcountry hunters and anglers to be
able to go in and clean most of these places up.
A lot of these are really simple to clean up,
but nobody can afford that liability, and so we create
a real incentive to start cleaning up these mind sights
that haven't had a responsible party, haven't had a corporation
(43:22):
associated with them for one hundred years in many cases,
and they're dotted all around the West, and they're leaking
heavy metals and acid into some of our best trout streams.
We can do something about this.
Speaker 3 (43:36):
I think that's just an important point to make that
we can make things happen. It may take longer than
we want it to, and again, we're only a little
over one hundred days in now to a new administration.
One of the folks we sat down with actually on
(43:57):
the Republican side of the aisle this morning, said, well,
you know, Trump shook up the snow globe pretty good,
and we're trying to wait for things to settle to
see what we can get done. Are you, I know
you're in the same position, but are Do you have
anything kind of in your crosshairs that you're hopeful can
(44:18):
get done in the near term or the long term.
Speaker 5 (44:23):
You know, I'm still incredibly committed to the Recovering American's
Wildlife Act. That's something that I started working on with
Roy Blunt a few years ago before he retired. Tom
Tillis took over the Republican side of that legislation, and
we're you know, I think we have it to a
(44:44):
point now where everybody, for the most part, most people
agree this is really good policy, and we have to
figure out, you know, how to pay for it in
a way that people can agree on as well.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
But that is a bill.
Speaker 5 (44:58):
That would take you know, we do emergency room wildlife
pretty well in this country. That's what the Endangered Species
Act is. It's like when things go really bad and
you've got a handful of whatever the species is left,
the Endangered Species Act comes in and tries to bring
them back from the brink. That's not the smart way
(45:19):
to do wildlife conservation. The smart way is to invest
a little bit when the population starts to decline, but
there's still plenty around to work with, right, And so
you know, I like to say the Endangered Species Act
if it's the emergency room of wildlife conservation, recovering America's
(45:39):
Wildlife Act would be the primary care. Like, let's keep
these species robust when we can invest a little bit
and have a huge bang for our buck and make
sure that from bumblebees to bison, we keep this incredible
diversity of wildlife around for our kids and our grandkids
(45:59):
to be able to appreciate.
Speaker 3 (46:03):
We spoke about this a few years ago because all
of our great conservation success stories in America are because
of giant conservation failures. And it's the funny thing, right,
It's like what you want is a boring story. It's
just good stewardship, conservation work, being aware looking down the road, and.
Speaker 5 (46:27):
So much of what works in conservation is sort of
behind the scenes because it works so well and people
just it.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Like I'll give you an example.
Speaker 5 (46:40):
I set on the Migratory Bird Conservation Commission, and we
approve the NAKA, the North America Wetless Conservation Act projects
and grants. We approve that the duck stamp, we get
to approve where the acquisitions are for wetland habitat to
support that. Your duck stamp goes to every year, and
(47:02):
it's kind of conservation on autopilot. We we don't have
a lot of fights on that board. We generally agree
and as a result, you know, hunters have been supporting
waterfowl habitat for the better part of a century. And
it just works. Like you buy your duck stamp, and
(47:25):
if you look at birds across the United States, most
of them are in decline, not waterfowl because we have
the duck stamp, we have NAKA, and those things are
creating habitat every year and keeping those populations robust. And
you just don't hear about it because it's not a
it's it's not a it's actually working.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
Yeah, yep, yep.
Speaker 3 (47:49):
And then you know, we just the other week we
we covered some of the hits to the US Vision
Wildlife Service. And I've been here during this week. While
we've been here, Mark Kenyon and I were running around
and talking to people that some of the squeaky wheels
are getting the grease in regards to some of these big,
(48:14):
massive doge cuts using the machete or the chainsaw. And
then it takes folks like yourself to reach out again
and say, hey, this thing really matters. And I just
had a pilot for the US Fish and Wildlife Service
write me a letter the other day and say, hey,
(48:34):
we got laid off. I do the bird surveys, I
do the caribou surveys. And this isn't something you can
learn on YouTube.
Speaker 5 (48:43):
No, And I don't like this is that's an example
could really sneak up on them, because you know, if
you're going to have a duck season, you got to
know what the population is. You got to actually know
what the breeding population of waterfowly is on their summer habitat,
(49:03):
long before duck season rolls around. And who does that.
That's what those pilots do. They go out and they
count those. If we don't have that number, you know
they're gonna set very conservative.
Speaker 2 (49:14):
Limits or even closed seasons.
Speaker 5 (49:16):
Like when that happens, it's going to get people's attention
and have.
Speaker 3 (49:22):
You been hearing anything positive about being able to restaff
some of those offices, or get a hold of somebody
and say no, no, no, this thing is important.
Speaker 5 (49:33):
It's been it's been a mixed bag. I will say
the courts have been very helpful because there were a
lot of you know, I had a lot of people
laid off in the Forest Service in New Mexico that
that got you know, reauthorized to come back.
Speaker 2 (49:49):
Many of them did come back.
Speaker 5 (49:51):
If you said, I'm not going through this again, I
don't like how I got treated, I'm going to go
look for something in the private sector. You know, every
week there are five fires and I can put one
of them out, you know. So yeah, I'm engaging with
Secretary Burgham or the new chief of the Forest Service,
trying to trying to problem solve these things. But so
(50:16):
much of it seems to be run from the perspective
of some twenty five year old looking at a spreadsheet
and not even understanding oftentimes what the program is that
they're impacting, looking for a keyword or what have you,
rather than the sort of thoughtful efficiency.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
That we would all support.
Speaker 5 (50:36):
I mean, we have something called the Government Accountability Office.
It was DOGE before DOGE was a thing. They you know,
we fund them to find efficiencies in government, and every
dollar we put into the GEO, we get over one
hundred dollars back in savings. But they're very thoughtful and
thorough and they dig into those programs ahead of time
so that you don't have the kind of chaos and
(50:59):
unintended constant sequences that we're seeing right now. And you know,
I doing what I do, caring about the things that
I care about. I know people at Fish and Wildlife
who are just they're taking the buy out and they're
they're they're good. They're out the door. They're not coming back.
And their expertise took thirty years to create and it's
(51:22):
not going to be back. It's not going to be
in the service anytime soon. And so we're going to
be firing on less than all cylinders for a long
time to come.
Speaker 3 (51:32):
We spoke about this a little bit with with Congressman Vasquez.
I always get that it's Representative Veasquez or Congressman either one,
and it's interchangeable.
Speaker 2 (51:41):
It's interchangeable.
Speaker 3 (51:42):
Okay, thank you. I learned learned something. There's decorum and
protocol in these places, and it doesn't matter how many
times I show up here.
Speaker 1 (51:51):
I don't think I get it all.
Speaker 5 (51:53):
What you need to know is the more times, the
more superlatives that you say about your good friends and
from the state of wherever, the more you're covering up
for the.
Speaker 2 (52:06):
Friction and the cost.
Speaker 3 (52:08):
All right, everybody remember that one. But we did talk
about that part of what you get when your brand
new whatever is working alongside somebody's been doing it for
a long time and getting that knowledge of like, oh, yeah,
that's what the handbook says, but that doesn't work here.
Speaker 5 (52:30):
Here's a real story. It's called mentorship.
Speaker 4 (52:32):
Right.
Speaker 5 (52:33):
Every good CEO in this country will tell you about
the importance of mentorship and how it impacted their ability
to be a better manager, to be more efficient, to
be more effective. And we're sort of short circuiting that
randomly through these agencies.
Speaker 3 (52:50):
Are we going to see a build back in these
agencies that you're aware of yet?
Speaker 5 (52:56):
I mean, the build back is just the fact that
a lot of people who were fired, they weren't laid off.
They were literally fired with emails that said, you know,
you're not doing your job. In fact, many of those
people were folks who had just been promoted because they
were doing their job well and because they were promoted,
(53:17):
their probationary for the first twelve months, So we fired
the dose. Approach to this was like to fire the
best and the brightest as opposed to finding the weak
links and trying to downsize to attrition. So we're not
in that build back phase yet and we probably won't
(53:37):
be for a little while.
Speaker 3 (53:39):
It's interesting. I felt like I came up with a
good line, and I've been trying to repeat that to everyone.
I said, you know, I know this stuff takes time,
but you got to keep in mind every hunting season
is somebody's first and at somebody's last, so this stuff's
really important.
Speaker 2 (53:57):
That is a good line.
Speaker 3 (53:58):
Well, thank you and our BHH aptors have you know,
we volunteer a lot, right, and thank you for that.
Speaker 2 (54:08):
That's a great example.
Speaker 5 (54:10):
I'll tell you a habitat specialist in New Mexico who
was working with BHA and other groups to remove fence
that was no longer serving livestock purposes in the Rio
Grande del Norte National Monument.
Speaker 2 (54:27):
You know, was one of the.
Speaker 5 (54:28):
First people to go and like, how do you like
if you don't have those people. They're the glue that
allows you to do these good wildlife projects. It's always
a partnership between somebody at the agency and the volunteer
muscle that a BHA can provide. And you know, together
you can change a landscape and uh, take out old
(54:52):
fencing that's that's interrupting elk migration or antelope migration.
Speaker 3 (54:58):
And you need to have that point of contact, that trust.
Speaker 2 (55:00):
Somebody has to.
Speaker 5 (55:01):
Pick up the phone down at the at the BLM
or the Forest Service and and actually be that point
of contact.
Speaker 3 (55:08):
We have a Kansas chapter that they they you know,
they're like, we're out there like running chainsaws and burning
stuff with our state DNR. But we started with like
picking up trash on the side of the road. So
we have to build that relationship trust. Yes, and then
when those points of contact go away, you have to
(55:28):
start over.
Speaker 5 (55:29):
Start from scratch. And nobody's going to hand you a
drip torch on day one. That's a good reason.
Speaker 2 (55:34):
Which is a good reason. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (55:36):
But and so one thing that we're hearing from state agencies,
and this is something people need to be aware of,
is that our are already allocated funds, our own fund,
our Pittman, Robertson and Dingle Johnson dollars that are then
matched with our state license and tag fees to get
(55:57):
habitat work done on the ground. What we're hearing from
all across the US is that office is basically empty.
So it's our cash for the projects, and it's hard
to get somebody to pick up the phone and get
the check sent out. And so that's been an ask
(56:18):
that we've been making, like, hey, this is.
Speaker 1 (56:20):
An easy one. Yeah, if you can make some phone calls.
Speaker 2 (56:24):
How critical is that?
Speaker 5 (56:25):
I mean, I worked on a project in New Mexico
that was really kind of a good example of how
you have to if you want to do good things
in government, you really need folks pulling together for the
local level, the state level, the federal level together. And
so we did an acquisition that became a wildlife management
(56:46):
area in New Mexico, and a key part of that
was being able to leverage Pittman Robertson dollars. And so
you know, fifty four thousand acres we were able to
conserve for wildlife in New Mexico wouldn't have gotten there
if it wouldn't have been for the CORPUS. The sort
of foundational Pittman Robertson dollars. And then we were able
(57:07):
to attract charitable dollars, and we were able to attract
you know, individual private individuals who wanted to give towards
wildlife conservation. But if it hadn't been for the PR dollars,
we would have never been able to build the budget
for that project.
Speaker 3 (57:24):
Sure, yeah, because you can say, hey, if we can
raise this amount that's fifty percent less than the total project, right,
we'll get this amount in PR dollars.
Speaker 4 (57:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (57:34):
Yeah, So it's a big, big motivator.
Speaker 2 (57:36):
On the beverage yep, big time leverage.
Speaker 1 (57:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (57:39):
And and do asks like that get some traction when
we're out here. I know there's big things going on. No,
but I'm trying to pitch it as like, hey, this
is a if you can pick up the phone call,
this is.
Speaker 5 (57:52):
No absolutely And you know, everybody, it's kind of like
college here in the sense that your commities are sort
of like you're almost like your majors or your miners.
So if you're on the right committee and you care
about this stuff, you're on Environment and Public Works. That's
that's the Wildlife Committee, Energy Natural Resources, which I'm ranking
(58:15):
member on is Relly, the Public Lands Committee, and so, uh,
if you're talking to folks who are on those committees
in particular about this stuff, they even with all the
big fights over Medicaid and Social Security and what have you, Yeah,
they care and they're they're almost committees for a reason
because it matters to them.
Speaker 1 (58:37):
That's fantastic to hear. H is there.
Speaker 3 (58:41):
I know you're you're a busy guy, So we've got
a wrapper up. But is there something outside of taking
the trip to DC that individuals can do that will
allow them to effectively lobby for their interests.
Speaker 2 (58:58):
Absolutely.
Speaker 5 (58:59):
What I would urge people to do is tell their
their genuine story of what they care about, what they're
concerned about, how they're being impacted right now, tell that
in a in a short video, and post it on
your social and I have seen more people speaking out.
(59:21):
Sometimes it's folks who just got laid off from a
trail crew. Sometimes it's a park service ranger who was
there for thirty years and is no longer you know,
able to do their job in the back country. Whatever
it is like, tell those stories because those those stories
have a way of finding finding their way in front
(59:42):
of individual members of the House and Senate when you're
you know, going through.
Speaker 2 (59:48):
Your social media.
Speaker 5 (59:50):
Those algorithms are pretty sophisticated and and I think when
the public really speaks out on a given issue, it
has a way of finding its way in front of
members of Congress, whether they want to see it or not.
Speaker 3 (01:00:05):
It's good to hear everybody certainly has a voice. Sometimes
it feels like you're throwing it into the void, but
Senator Martin Heinrich says, they'll hear you anything else.
Speaker 5 (01:00:16):
Senator thanks, you know, thanks for this platform because this
is the stuff that brings Americans together. You know, one
thing we learned during COVID is people really care about
wildlife and public lands and it's a uniter so let's
work together on it.
Speaker 1 (01:00:37):
Darn right.
Speaker 3 (01:00:38):
Well, that's all we got for you this week. Thank
you so much for listening. Remember to write in to
askcl that's Askcal at the meteater dot com. If you
have questions for Senator Heinrich, you can send them in
to us. We'll compile them and get them answered, or
we'll just have the senator back on and he can
answer them himself.
Speaker 2 (01:00:59):
Sounds great.
Speaker 1 (01:01:00):
Thanks again, we'll talk to you next week,
From Meat Eaters World News headquarters in Bozeman, Montana. This
is Col's Week in Review with Ryan cal Calahan.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Here's Cal.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Hey, there are Cals we can review. Listeners, Welcome to
another fascinating episode.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
This is a special drought this week.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
We're changing up the order in order to stay as
timely as possible, which is not really possible with the
current state of news. I had the pleasure of sitting
down with Democratic Senator Martin Heinrich out of New Mexico
and Republican Congressman Ryan Zinki out of my home state
here in Montana to talk public lands, time on the Hill, advocacy,
(00:52):
things like that. I think it's important to call out
the fact that this is a Democrat and Republican and
the similarities here on our natural resources and our ability
to roam. All right, we're going to get back to
our regularly scheduled programming and cadence after this week, and
keep in mind this might be a little dated by
(01:14):
the time you hear it. I'm crossing my fingers currently
right now. Just read an article where Congressman Zinki has
standing up to the rest of the Republicans in the
budget reconciliation process. We need other people to follow this
guy's example. On the Republican side of the aisle, Martin
(01:35):
Heinrich in New Mexico is doing a great job holding
the line on public land sales. And I think one
thing that you're going to notice here is if you're
paying attention to the news, they keep saying this is
a particular issue or a special issue in Western states
or just Montana, you need to take a listen to
(01:58):
this here podcast and call your representatives, your senators and
let them know that you love public lands, public wildlife
and access to them and it is not just a
Montana thing or just a Western thing. Hopefully this inspires
you a little bit. It's a peel back behind the curtain.
I hopefully enjoyed Mark Kenyon and I's podcast where we
(02:23):
at least tried to walk you through our week on
the hill. This is one of the results that came
out of it. I hope you enjoy it. Please write
into Ask c Al that's ask Cal at the Meat
Eater dot com. Let me know what's going on your
neck of the woods and let me know if you
have any questions. As we cover politics over here, Cal's
wee can review thank you so much. Can't wait to
(02:45):
hear from you. Without further Ado. Congressman Ryan Zinki, Hey,
Cal's wee can review fans. This is another legislative update.
I guess we're in session.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
We're in DC.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
We've been running around in on the hill talking public lands,
public water's, public wildlife access to them, and talking about,
you know, how how the whole crazy meat eater for
profit world can advocate for wild places alongside nonprofits doing
some wearing a couple of hats this week. I'm the
(03:20):
national or North American board chair for back country Hunters
and Anglers. I'm not sure if you're aware of that.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
Congressman, I am, and and thank you for your service.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Well that's quite a statementself. Well, it's an important issue.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
And like I said, today, we're talking with Congressman Ryan
Zink out of my home state of Montana. And uh,
we've covered this on the show already, but one of
the unequivocal shining stars of the first hundred days of
the Trump administration here is the Public Lands and Public
Hands Act. It's something I think we see as non partisan,
(03:57):
something folks should be jumping on. So we we're lucky
enough to get some time with the congressman a day
to talk about public lands and public hands well.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
And a lot of it is, you know, growing up
in Montana. You know, I would say, you know, the
experience I had growing up. You know, we in Montana,
we inherited a lot of our outdoor experience from the
big guys, from Teddy, Roosevelt, Pinchot, and the experience and
why we live in Montana for a lot of us
(04:27):
is because of the great outdoors, the experience, the access
to hunting and trails, and it has changed over the
course of time. When I grew up, there was never
a problem going out and hunting or fighting, access to rivers.
A lot of the rivers didn't have a lot of
people on them, and you know, fast forward today there's
a lot more people on the river. I give men example,
(04:49):
I was in the southern part of the Madison and
I was amazed how many people were you know, during
a snowstorm last week there was a blizzard, there was
a run in the valley and the US and there
was a there was a boat every hundred yards and
a lot more houses that on that section, uh than
(05:10):
I remember. And certainly, and in Montana's changed when someone
buys land, they often the first thing to do is
put a fence up right, and so the access to
our rivers and streams and the conditions of our forests
has largely changed. And you know, the challenge is this.
You know, we were we were given to a great
(05:30):
degree of our outdoor experience again by the by the
great ones. The challenge is now going forward the next
hundred years. How are we going to manage them? And
as you as you see property and getting getting getting
sold and in fences going up, there's the new set
of challenges of systems. You know, how do we protect
(05:52):
the water shed systems, how do we protect migration of
big game and animals because you know, as they become
more pressure and fractionated, you got to make sure the
movement of those systems, you know, maintains and our outdoor
experience that we love to a degree is protected. And
a lot of it is management, how we manage it
(06:15):
and the importance of manage it so we can you know,
the next generation so they have the same opportunity that
we love and protect. And then there's some challenges out there.
But it's not a Republican or Democrat issue. This is
an American issue, and those of us in the West
(06:36):
we see it more acutely. But it's an important issue
and we can't solve it from one side of the
aisle or the other. This is again, this is an
American issue, and it will take all of us going
together to recognize the importance of our outdoor experience and
then putting in place ways we can manage it better
(06:56):
so we don't have to burn down our force every year.
So trail access is better, so you know, we don't
have to use ONYX to determine, you know, what the
public access site is, and how do you get on
the corners because you know, you know, on the corners
of f come up in Wyoming, they'll spill over to Montana.
(07:18):
And you know, if you have a section of public
land somewhere on those four miles, because remember a section
is one by one by one, somewhere there should be
public access into that property. It may not be the
corner because you know when they when they put it together,
corner might be over cliff. So somewhere on that public
access because it's our land, it's all of our land,
(07:39):
and all of us share thinking and responsibility to make
sure we we we protect it and and we use
the land wisely. And if we do moneying or one
of the resources must be a good boy scout. At
the end of the day, let's make sure our camp
site is as good or better as and what we
(08:00):
found it.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
I mean that sounds great to me. I got a
way in on the western perspective and eastern perspective. I
was just just last week basically came from West Virginia
to DC and floated with our West Virginia Chapter of
back Country Hunters and Anglers.
Speaker 4 (08:18):
Did you float on the golly?
Speaker 1 (08:19):
We did the New River Gorge up?
Speaker 4 (08:21):
Yep, Yeah, I've climbed a New River gorge. Nice section
of property.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Unreal, I mean unreal. And we floated with.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Members of the West Virginia Department of Natural Resources and
I literally asked them if we were in a closed
section of river, because we floated in camp for two
nights and in three days we saw not a single
other boat on the whole river. And I was like,
you guys, do not understand. I keep asking you about
(08:52):
this because in Montana right now, it doesn't matter what
river you're on. You can't go a day, let alone
three days without seeing in another boat.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
Yeah, and there's some secret spots, but you know, certainly
on the Madison, the Yellowstone, the Gut and Your and
the and the Flathead. You know some forks, but you
got to go further and further away, and there's a
lot of pressure on our rivers, and you know, not
how a river want. We don't want to look like
the Sacramento River.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
We'd love to have duck hunting like the Sack does.
But you know one thing that I've experienced out here
in you know, my my blink and eye a week
here in d C. Is what public land is. And
when I bring up public lands, I'll get well, Ryan,
don't worry. We're not going to sell national parks. And
I have to say, well, you know, sir ma'am, with
(09:44):
all due respect, I'm talking about places where you can
bring guns and have your dogs off leash, our members
at b h A, our customers throughout the whole meat
eater world. We like those BLM tracks that you probably
don't see as valuable. We like our National fur Us
places where you can get out there and hunt well.
Speaker 4 (10:04):
And a lot of the Forest Service land you can
graze on it. A lot of the BLM land you
can graze on it. And in even wilderness the nineteen
sixty four Wilderness Act, you know, it did allow grazing
because there was a great compromise between you know, the
grazers and the preservationists the mirrors if you would. But
(10:28):
it is still available for not single use. You know,
recreation isn't monolithic. You have a lot of aspects of recreation,
of hiking, of hunting, those type of things and have
that and available you know, West. I think sometimes we
take it for granted that you know, hunting opportunities are there,
(10:50):
and you know, herds go from private land to public land,
and we're seeing a lot of pressure on public land
and a lot of the herds will stay on private
land because they figure it out, you know, pretty soon.
But the migration corridors, for instance, is a really big
issue because you know, the herds transit through you know,
different sections of land in private and public and as
(11:15):
you know, more people move out west, bigger fences and
the property gets to a degree fractionated as far as
access and movement. You got to look at these corridors
and make sure we have a healthy system. Means that
big game has to have an opportunity to go to
winter range to summer or grange great grazing and in between.
(11:36):
And last night we're at the Teddy Roosevelt Conservation Product
dinner and one of our great ones talked about these
migration corridors are kind of like veins in a body,
is that you have to have freedom of movement, and
a lot of times it does go through private land
and conservation easements, but also working with landowners. You know, example,
(12:00):
sheep oftentimes they won't go over a fence. You know,
I'll call go over a fence. You know, a bear
will go through a fence, but sheep sometimes will go
around forty or fifty miles if there's a fence. So
sometimes how you design a fence to make sure they
are permeable for the wildlife, making sure that they can
get over a road. When I was secretary, we put
(12:24):
an order in place, you know, to look at corridors,
to look at the next hundred years how to protect
those those valuable corridors of movement. And what we found
that a lot of times because of fences, because of
highways and roads, the herds no longer move freely between
the places they need to to maintain health, and we
(12:46):
can mitigate that sometimes by overpasses on roads, underpasses where
it makes sense, making sure we work with landowners to
look at the fence design so movement is there. But
that's all important a part of managing what I think
is our greatest assets in this country. You know, our
(13:06):
America's best idea was the parks, but not too far
behind was the rest of the public lands. And they
should connect and they should work together. What I found
as a secretary is that you might have a BLM holding,
a Bureau of Land Management holding next to a park,
(13:26):
and then next to a forest. Now the park is
managed by Department of Interior BLM's Department of Interior through BLM,
and the forest service is managed by the US Department
of agg through the US Forest Service. But a lot
of times the trails don't connect. The management plans are
very siloed. And if we're going to manage systems, which
(13:50):
we should, we're gonna have to work together, not only
between Republicans and Democrats and the public, but also within
the government making sure are different you know, agencies and
departs from the government. We should have more or less
seamless policies that make sense to protect the equal system
as it is. You know, watersheds are key to it,
(14:11):
but also movement of game flyaways. You know, where our
migratory birds can land and and to a degree maintain
that path as they go north and southat migration of
big game can go either way. It depends on where
and where the where the vegetation is. But it is
about looking at systems and making sure our systems are
(14:33):
are healthy in the future.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
And I want to I think you touched on on
something about you got to work together to ensure this connectivity.
And I know you've been working across the aisle on
several things that I think the hunting and angling communities
would be very supportive of. And would you mind just
(14:56):
telling us a little bit about that work.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
All the there's a you know, and you know up
front we live it seems to be a very partisan world.
You know, it's left and right, and you see the
anger on both sides. But on public lands it's it's
not a blue or red issue. It's a red, white
and blue issue. And how you work together is you
(15:19):
find some common ground. And what we've done is we've
introduced to public lands and public hands. We've with you know,
the corridor, which is largely bipartisan, and how you kind
of get the anger out of the room as you
find an opportunity to work together. And I'll say, you know,
public lands and public hands is one of those bills bipartisan, right,
(15:41):
and how you kind of get rid of the anger
out of it as you work together, you gain trust
and you start thinking, you know, looking at things that
are common ground and easy, and then you can go
the next thing because you have a relationship and there's
an element of trust together. But it's it's steps along
the way and some of these hard challenges that are
(16:02):
country face. You know, we're gonna have to work together.
You can't. You can't solve things from one side of
the aisle or the other. You know, largely the middle
just wants things done right and we want to make
sure we have accountability. We want to make sure that
the outdoors is there. And how you get to that
is you start with the on the processes, largely you know, bipartisan,
get a lot of support, and then then you tackle
(16:25):
that that's a success. Then you go to the next
one and the next one and ultimately then you're working
together as we should as a country. And look, you know,
I spent twenty three years in the Navy Seals. I
fought overseas U and I fought for America, not against Americans.
And and here under these past few years, it's been
(16:47):
it's been pretty rough. Just you know, if just a
citizen just want to get things done, it seems like
you're going to go to one side of the isle
or next. And I'd say that that's move towards, you know,
our side of the aisle, as Americans. And then and
that's let's use public lands as that vehicle to get there.
Let's make a bridge, you know, rather than a fortress.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Oh, I love it.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
And did you you know, you came out right out
of the gate as you have in the in the past,
and said you're drawing a hard, I think redline you
said on on public land sales. Did you experience any
any pushback on that when you made that statement.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
Well, you know, there's certain things that I don't bend.
Don I don't bend on the Constitution the United States.
You know, as a former seal officer, I fought overseas.
I've lost a lot of friends. You know fighting for
the Constitution, and I won't bend uh. If you don't
like the constitution, there's a process to change it. We've
had several amendments over to overtime. You know, I'm good
(17:51):
to that. But I'm going to defend the Constitution. And
I'm also going to defend our heritage, which is public lands.
And I give the analogy of a hotel. If you
don't like the management or how a hotel is managed,
you don't sell the hotel. You you get new management
in and and yes, or our forests are burning down.
We can be a lot more innovative using best science.
(18:14):
You know best use greatest good, longest term. Oh that's
that's that's that's the American conservation ethic. You know, it
wrapped up in a nutshell, and that's pig show and
and and Roosevelt. But you know, to advance the idea
that somehow you're going to sell land and that will
cure our problems. Number one in the in the country.
(18:34):
We don't have a public lands problem, to per se.
We have a spending problem. And let's focus on what
the problems are. It's our it's our spending. But that's
not sell the hotel on our public lands and and
lose what I think is the greatest of assets we
have in this country is our public lands. And to
(18:55):
be able to share that experience the next generation you want,
it's gone, it's gone. You know. You look at management
of of of game. You know, what's the right population
of wolves, what's the right population of bears? All that
can be managed you know, to a degree greater too
using science. You know, if we can track you know,
(19:18):
Taliban in the in the in the hills of Afghanistan,
I think we can figure out herds and movement a
lot better and use technology to manage so much more better.
So it benefits us all.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
I know, outside of your office here you have like
the current rates for.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Our our beef prices and green prices.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
And this is all tied together, that public private landscape
when we string these migration corridors together. And is there
are there any tips you'd like to offer for kind
of working on both sides of the fence for us,
you know, public land owner is is kind of the
BHA model. But there's not one of us that doesn't
(20:05):
spend a little time on both sides of the fence.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
Well, you know, and and let's look at the population
of people that go out and hunt and fish and recreate.
They're not for one side of the aisle. You know,
as a seal, I never asked a person whether the
Republican or Democrat. I didn't care that I don't care now.
And those that enjoy the outdoor experience there if there
are from both sides of the aisle. So the guys
(20:29):
that's work together to make sure that we protect and
preserve and and I go. You know, I'm never been
an advocate for selling or transferring public land. I'm veamingly
against and that's a red line with me, the Constitution
and selling and selling land. And I've made that known
and I'll stand by it. But I'm not alone. You know.
(20:50):
I would say most people that that hunt and fish
and enjoy the outdoors enjoy the outdoors both on private
and public land, and they understand the inter relationship between
the two. And yeah, most of us would would would
prefer we manage it a little better using using things.
But this is this is this again. We were given
(21:12):
a legacy, uh that not every country has. And if
you go overseas, no one has the park system, no
one has the public land system, the recreational opportunities that
we do in the in this country, and I think
sometimes you need to step back and realize what what
the opportunities we were given and then both the responsibility
(21:34):
of us all to make sure we pass that out
to the next generation so they have the same opportunities
we do. Can we make it better? Absolutely more efficient,
absolutely better science one hundred percent, but let's work together
to do it. And that's not that's not fight on
every issue all the time. And you can't learn if
(21:55):
you don't listen. So it's all it's okay to disagree,
but let's not be disagreeable. Doing it has actually open
up our ears and listen, because you know, the other
side might might have some pretty good points, uh you know,
on it, And because I think most of us that
enjoy the outdoors, we we we we want the same thing.
(22:17):
How to get there might be a little different. But
if we listen to each other and and mitigate and
get the anger out, then we can solve the problems.
So we don't have these massive forest fires each year
that you know, if you're elderly, it's going to affect
your lungs. But but also it's going to affect our watersheds,
it's going to affect our habitat and then and that's
(22:38):
look at at better ways to make sure you you
you pull the excess timber, the dead and dying timber out.
You know, some of our forests in the northwest of Montana,
you know you have a canopy, but everything under the
canopy is dead because the trees are too thick. And look,
you know, elk don't eat trees, and either de bears.
(22:58):
So sometimes it's better to re look at make sure
we don't have forests that are monolithic. You know, put
a little more aspen in there, opening up a little
more so you can have the grasses in there in
feeding because you know, bears oftentimes will go where the
food is and then they're going hundreds and hundreds of
miles because the forests are dead inside. So let's let's
(23:20):
look at a better management schemes and improve it and
that we can do together.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
Well, that sounds darn good to me. I really appreciate
your time, Congressman, And from a Montana kid to another,
I really appreciate how you're representing the state right now
in this public lands issue. And I would really like
to hear at another time how we can support getting
more d's and more rs signed onto this.
Speaker 4 (23:45):
Thing, absolutely, and then we can all do our part,
you know. And this should not be an r D issue.
This should should be you know, American and a Montana issue,
and all of us it should should recognize. I think
how lucky we are to live in Montana, and how
lucky we are to have the experience that others fought
(24:06):
for that we enjoy, and also how much of responsibility
it is to make sure the next generation has the
same opportunity. So I appreciate everything you to do, and
I look forward to be out on the hunt with you.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Oh man, that'd be a killer. Yeah, that'd be a killer.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
Killer, no pun intended.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
All right, all you cals, we can review listeners. I'm
wrapping up a week on the hill here in Washington,
d c. Our Nation's capital. One of the many freedoms
we get here as citizens of these United States is
you get to actually walk through these buildings where our
duly elected representatives are ideally representing our interests, and sometimes
(24:48):
you got to stop by and ask them to stay
on task, which was kind of my goal here. We've
been talking a lot about public lands, waters, wildlife, and access.
We had a Ducks and Limited banquet this week. We
had the Teddy Roosevelt Conservation Partnership Policy Meeting as well
(25:09):
as their Capital Conservation Awards dinner, and it's been a
conservation themed week here in DC. But save the best
for last, sitting down with someone we've known for a
long time, Senator Martin Heinrich out of New Mexico, and
we're just going to have a wrap up candid conversation
(25:30):
with the Senator on the state of conservation and public
lands here one hundred days in to a new administration.
Senator Heinrich, how you doing.
Speaker 5 (25:40):
You know, I'm holding up okay, but a lot of
challenges right now.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Seems like a lot of work here.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
I don't think everybody's just putting a show on for
me being here this week.
Speaker 5 (25:52):
No, it's pretty much a normal week. Although it's great
to have so many really focused quality organizations in town
to sort of refocus some of my colleagues on just
how important conservation is and how foundational it is, I
think to the American experience and everybody gets pulled in
(26:12):
a million different directions. So having the du dinner and
the TRCP dinner and so many people visiting. That's really
helpful to get my colleagues focused on what matters.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
This is going to sound redundant, but it doesn't matter
when people show up and make an appointment and come
in and knock on your door one percent.
Speaker 5 (26:41):
And to have people who care about this stuff from
the home states and home districts of individual senators and
members of Congress. That's that's one of the most powerful
things that these organizations do, especially the ones that are
membership based, is that they're able to find those those
(27:01):
spokespeople who live right in your district or right in
your state if you're a senator, and speak to these
issues from that perspective, that that really helps. I think
center how important it is for every member to be
paying attention to this stuff.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
That goes, even if you're not attached to a group,
just an individual.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
Yeah, I'll tell you you know my experience. You know,
you don't ever don't always get to speak to your
congress person or or senator. You're often working with staff.
Does staff matter?
Speaker 5 (27:41):
Oh my gosh, yes, yeah, they're the subject matter experts, right, So,
like all of us as members have some background that
we know well, and we really you know, can sort
of hold our own in and for me that's natural
resources and energy. But we have to cover so much
any different things, right, And so you have these subject
(28:03):
matter experts and they're the staff and being able to
engage directly with them is absolutely important.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
And what what's on the on the top of your
your pile right now? What are you engaging in?
Speaker 4 (28:19):
For?
Speaker 5 (28:20):
For me, it we have never I've been through a
few cycles of this sell off the public lands stuff.
It comes and it goes, and uh, it's not it's
not my first rodeo, but I've never seen it so
close to actually happening as right now. And I think
(28:41):
one of the reasons is historically, you know, we've seen
legislation from members in Utah, for example, to to sell
off public lands. We had the whole Jason Chafitz drill
back in the day when I was in the House
of Representatives. But that kind of legislation in the Senate
requires sixty votes, so it was never even though it
(29:01):
was it was very timely and we had big fights
on the hill about it.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
It was very public, it was very opublic.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
It wasn't on the verge of happening.
Speaker 5 (29:12):
We've never been closer to it actually happening than right now,
and I think it's important for the public to understand.
One of the reasons why that is is because there's
something called budget reconciliation that where you can set policies
so long as they have a budget impact with a
(29:33):
bare majority, so fifty one votes in the US Senate,
and your public lands could be divested off. We could
see BLM lands disappear, maybe other public lands, and that's
never been on the verge of happening like it is
right now. And to see so many of my colleagues,
I mean, when we first it's a complicated process. It's
(29:57):
kind of a two step process. The first half of
that is sort of goal setting but not written in stone.
And we had an amendment to say hands off our
public lands, and all but two Republicans voted against that amendment.
That worries me because I know that this is bipartisan,
Like I hunt and fish with people who don't agree
(30:18):
with me on a lot of political issues, and across
the spectrum in New Mexico, the people who care about,
live on, love our public lands are all across the
political spectrum. And yet it was we had an overwhelming
vote on one side of the aisle to not protect
(30:39):
those public lands, and so that really worries me. I
don't think we've ever been this close to this being
reality before.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
Obviously, you know, we've talked about Senator Lee.
Speaker 4 (30:51):
This is.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
You know, a goal of his and he's been out
in front with it for a long long time, so
much so that I you know, on the conservation side
of things, things last forever, it takes a long time
to get things done, and there's all sorts of burnout.
(31:14):
This guy does not experience burnout on this topic.
Speaker 5 (31:19):
Look, I have a good relationship with with Senator Lee,
he's the chairman of my committee. But we come from
very different perspectives on this. I mean, I view public
lands as the anvil with which the American experience, especially
in the West, was created, and you know, I grew
(31:41):
up as an outfitter guide taking people out to experience
those public lands. They're central, in my view to our
rural economies in New Mexico. And I don't want to
speak for Senator Lee, but it seems like he views
them as a burden, as something negative, and I just
(32:03):
I couldn't have a more different perspective on that.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
So many of the.
Speaker 5 (32:08):
The memories, the experiences that make me who I am,
come from time spent with friends and family on public lands,
and that my hope is that that perspective, you know,
wins the day.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
Yeah, I mean, that's something we share in common. I'd
tell folks all the time. I'm if I come away
from my like meat eater life having nothing but cool
critters on the wall, it's just going to be a
life squandered. Because all these experiences that I've had, I
feel indebted to others to make sure that they at
(32:47):
least have the option. I don't need them all to
do it, but they need to appreciate, hopefully why I
we do it and have the ability to go out
and create some memories out there, some experience answers on
their own.
Speaker 5 (33:01):
And I've I've been so fortunate and to be able
to travel the world and to see that what we've
built here in the United States of America is truly unique.
I mean, we we come from this European history where
it's landed gentry who get to do those things right,
(33:24):
It's people of wealth and means and property, they get
to do those things and certainly there are plenty of
people here in the United States who have some amazing
trophy l property.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
But I don't care.
Speaker 5 (33:37):
Who you are, how how skinny your wallet and your
bank account are. In the United States of America, wildlife
and public lands are of public trust, and that means
anybody can can go and do this stuff. I mean,
when I was poor in my twenties and and you know,
didn't didn't barely have a bank account, I was still
(34:00):
going out and having amazing experiences on for Service Land,
on Blm land. That's unique in the world. That is
not normal. It is something we have created. In part
that we created in opposition to you know, where we
came from and the European feudal history, that as we
(34:23):
built this democracy, we were saying, there's a better way
to do this stuff.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
There's a more democratic way to do this stuff.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
And I definitely want to get into that. But there's
this kind of phrase that I've encountered multiple times this week,
and it kind of comes in two forms. Oh, Ryan,
don't worry about your public lands. We're not going to
sell national parks. And then I have to explain, well,
national parks are special, they're great but I'm talking about
(34:52):
places where you can have a dog off leash and
shoot guns. And those aren't your national parks.
Speaker 4 (34:57):
No.
Speaker 5 (34:57):
I hear that all the time, Like I've seen secretaries
of interior say that we're not talking about the special places,
We're just talking about all that other stuff, all that
yellow stuff on the map. I'm like, that's where I
spend my time on that yellow stuff on the map.
Like your listeners know that. Like when you look at
a map of your home state, you know what that
(35:19):
green means, and you know what the state blue means,
and you know what the yellow means. And national parks
are not the experience that most sportsmen and women in
the West are relating to on a daily basis. They're
really important. They drive our economies. I love our parks,
but I don't want to go spend a time with
(35:39):
the crowd. I want to get outside and relate directly
to the landscape. And that's those are the places that
have not only fed my soul, but literally fed my
family as my boys grew up.
Speaker 3 (35:53):
And then there's also the oh Montana and their relationship
with public lands that that's unique, you know. I talk
about the membership of backhuntry, hunters, and anglers. I talk
about the customer base of meat eater, like, we can't
do what we do if it was just one state. No,
(36:14):
and why do we have this perspective? But I'm hearing that,
Oh no, no, you're just different in Montana. And I
don't think that's a perspective that just belongs to a
certain few Republicans or a certain few Democrats. But where
how do we reach these folks and provide that connectivity?
Speaker 5 (36:36):
I mean, I think we have to have people from
every state come and tell their story in places like
the Halls of Congress, to make it clear that, you know,
people in Florida really care about their national wildlife refuges
and people in Virginia really love their national for us, like,
this is not a Montana and New Mexico thing, This
(36:58):
is a United States of America. And people don't always
even think about the like they don't always even the
places that they care about that they have access to
that are public lands, they don't always think of.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Them as public lands.
Speaker 5 (37:14):
They think of them as, oh, my national forest or
my wildlife refuge.
Speaker 4 (37:18):
And so.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
You know, I've noticed this.
Speaker 5 (37:25):
The way that people try to say, oh, Montana is different,
as if to like put it to the side and
make you this special bucket that doesn't apply to everywhere else.
But it's like this, people are just as passionate in
my home state of New Mexico about public land as
they are in Montana. And I think if you talk
(37:45):
about place anywhere in the country, you'll find that that
if you personalize it and make it about you know,
the places that really matter to you. It runs the gamut.
It is is a fifty state issue.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
So I spoke with Congressman Zinki here earlier today, in fact,
and we spent some time talking about like working across
the aisle, and he had some great things to say.
I'm super happy that he's representing Montana with the attitude
that he expressed of we got a lot more in
(38:23):
common than we have not right absolutely, how to like
build those That's how you.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
Get things done in Washington, d C.
Speaker 5 (38:30):
By the way, is that you find those places where
you really can build a broad coalition. And you know,
Congressman Zinci is somebody I've known for a long time.
I think the first time I met you in person
may have been at the Sabinoso Wilderness when he came
out and he and I went horseback riding into Sabino
(38:51):
so and you know, getting on the landscape together changed
perspectives that it made things possible that when we were
just talking about them in Washington, DC over a map,
it made things real and attainable that weren't before. And
we were able to work together on that. And I
know he's working with my one of my members of Congress,
(39:11):
Gave Basquez in southern New Mexico. They're in different parties,
they grew up in very different places. They have different perspectives,
but public lands are bringing them together around this idea
that we shouldn't be selling off our public lands.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
Two great stories there.
Speaker 3 (39:27):
One when we did meet in the Sabioso Wilderness, the
Senator you know, saved saved me from uh exploring this centipede,
this giant centipede that I found that I was like,
this is an amazing animal. He's like, oh, you don't
want to touch that. I don't know the name of it,
but it was impressive. Huge and then and venomous and
(39:50):
venomous had that when and that was such a neat project,
right it was a landlocked wilderness area.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Capitol w wilderness.
Speaker 3 (39:59):
That's right, something we hold with very high regard in
the outdoors community, and that took a lot of groups
coming together to you know, have those Yeah.
Speaker 5 (40:13):
I mean I actually before I was a member of Congress,
I used to be the access chair UH for the
New Mexico Wildlife Federation and and I got talked into
doing that because I wanted to figure out how to
get access to the Sebinoso and UH. And it took
a long time, but but we made it happen. And
(40:36):
today you know that that that you know, for people
in Las Vegas, New Mexico, for example, that is just.
Speaker 4 (40:44):
A really.
Speaker 5 (40:46):
Important place for them to be able to access and
to spend time and people are thrilled.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
But that's open to the public now.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
Oh absolutely.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
I think there's a good example of of the the
timelines that we've kind of referenced a couple of times here.
The Good sam Act made it through in December of
last year. And I know that was something that you
were working hard on. Do you want to explain that
real quick?
Speaker 4 (41:11):
Sure?
Speaker 5 (41:12):
So that's a bill that Jim Rish and I were
able to get passed in December of last year. But
we were at the end of the relay race, right
it started. I think the first version of Good Samaritan
mining reform was introduced by Max Bacchus in nineteen ninety nine,
so it was a twenty five year effort to get
(41:33):
that done. And what it does is we have these
abandoned mines all over the country, especially in the West
and Iraqi Mountains, but truly every state has its abandoned mines.
And if you want to go in as a local
chapter of Trout Unlimited or backcountry Hunters and Anglers and
(41:53):
clean up one of these mind sites, the second you
touched that site. You don't just own the liability for
if you mess something up and hurt your neighbor. You know,
if you dump some tailings into a stream and pollute
that stream downstream and hurt your neighbors, that's understandable, but.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
You you actually own the.
Speaker 5 (42:17):
Liability for having created that site in the first place,
which is kind of bonkers, right, And no one will
clean those places up because of it, because you know,
it may only cost one hundred thousand dollars to clean
up a mind sight that is actually hurting a trout fishery,
but you might own five million dollars worth of liability
for that project. Nobody can afford that. So we created
(42:40):
this legislation to say, if you mess something up along
the way, you're on a hook for that you have
you own that liability. And sometimes things go wrong and
you should be responsible for that, but you shouldn't be
responsible for having created that site. And so what this
does is it gives the ability of that local trout
(43:00):
Unlimited group or the backcountry hunters and anglers to be
able to go in and clean most of these places up.
A lot of these are really simple to clean up,
but nobody can afford that liability, and so we create
a real incentive to start cleaning up these mind sights
that haven't had a responsible party, haven't had a corporation
(43:22):
associated with them for one hundred years in many cases,
and they're dotted all around the West, and they're leaking
heavy metals and acid into some of our best trout streams.
We can do something about this.
Speaker 3 (43:36):
I think that's just an important point to make that
we can make things happen. It may take longer than
we want it to, and again, we're only a little
over one hundred days in now to a new administration.
One of the folks we sat down with actually on
(43:57):
the Republican side of the aisle this morning, said, well,
you know, Trump shook up the snow globe pretty good,
and we're trying to wait for things to settle to
see what we can get done. Are you, I know
you're in the same position, but are Do you have
anything kind of in your crosshairs that you're hopeful can
(44:18):
get done in the near term or the long term.
Speaker 5 (44:23):
You know, I'm still incredibly committed to the Recovering American's
Wildlife Act. That's something that I started working on with
Roy Blunt a few years ago before he retired. Tom
Tillis took over the Republican side of that legislation, and
we're you know, I think we have it to a
(44:44):
point now where everybody, for the most part, most people
agree this is really good policy, and we have to
figure out, you know, how to pay for it in
a way that people can agree on as well.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
But that is a bill.
Speaker 5 (44:58):
That would take you know, we do emergency room wildlife
pretty well in this country. That's what the Endangered Species
Act is. It's like when things go really bad and
you've got a handful of whatever the species is left,
the Endangered Species Act comes in and tries to bring
them back from the brink. That's not the smart way
(45:19):
to do wildlife conservation. The smart way is to invest
a little bit when the population starts to decline, but
there's still plenty around to work with, right, And so
you know, I like to say the Endangered Species Act
if it's the emergency room of wildlife conservation, recovering America's
(45:39):
Wildlife Act would be the primary care. Like, let's keep
these species robust when we can invest a little bit
and have a huge bang for our buck and make
sure that from bumblebees to bison, we keep this incredible
diversity of wildlife around for our kids and our grandkids
(45:59):
to be able to appreciate.
Speaker 3 (46:03):
We spoke about this a few years ago because all
of our great conservation success stories in America are because
of giant conservation failures. And it's the funny thing, right,
It's like what you want is a boring story. It's
just good stewardship, conservation work, being aware looking down the road, and.
Speaker 5 (46:27):
So much of what works in conservation is sort of
behind the scenes because it works so well and people
just it.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Like I'll give you an example.
Speaker 5 (46:40):
I set on the Migratory Bird Conservation Commission, and we
approve the NAKA, the North America Wetless Conservation Act projects
and grants. We approve that the duck stamp, we get
to approve where the acquisitions are for wetland habitat to
support that. Your duck stamp goes to every year, and
(47:02):
it's kind of conservation on autopilot. We we don't have
a lot of fights on that board. We generally agree
and as a result, you know, hunters have been supporting
waterfowl habitat for the better part of a century. And
it just works. Like you buy your duck stamp, and
(47:25):
if you look at birds across the United States, most
of them are in decline, not waterfowl because we have
the duck stamp, we have NAKA, and those things are
creating habitat every year and keeping those populations robust. And
you just don't hear about it because it's not a
it's it's not a it's actually working.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
Yeah, yep, yep.
Speaker 3 (47:49):
And then you know, we just the other week we
we covered some of the hits to the US Vision
Wildlife Service. And I've been here during this week. While
we've been here, Mark Kenyon and I were running around
and talking to people that some of the squeaky wheels
are getting the grease in regards to some of these big,
(48:14):
massive doge cuts using the machete or the chainsaw. And
then it takes folks like yourself to reach out again
and say, hey, this thing really matters. And I just
had a pilot for the US Fish and Wildlife Service
write me a letter the other day and say, hey,
(48:34):
we got laid off. I do the bird surveys, I
do the caribou surveys. And this isn't something you can
learn on YouTube.
Speaker 5 (48:43):
No, And I don't like this is that's an example
could really sneak up on them, because you know, if
you're going to have a duck season, you got to
know what the population is. You got to actually know
what the breeding population of waterfowly is on their summer habitat,
(49:03):
long before duck season rolls around. And who does that.
That's what those pilots do. They go out and they
count those. If we don't have that number, you know
they're gonna set very conservative.
Speaker 2 (49:14):
Limits or even closed seasons.
Speaker 5 (49:16):
Like when that happens, it's going to get people's attention
and have.
Speaker 3 (49:22):
You been hearing anything positive about being able to restaff
some of those offices, or get a hold of somebody
and say no, no, no, this thing is important.
Speaker 5 (49:33):
It's been it's been a mixed bag. I will say
the courts have been very helpful because there were a
lot of you know, I had a lot of people
laid off in the Forest Service in New Mexico that
that got you know, reauthorized to come back.
Speaker 2 (49:49):
Many of them did come back.
Speaker 5 (49:51):
If you said, I'm not going through this again, I
don't like how I got treated, I'm going to go
look for something in the private sector. You know, every
week there are five fires and I can put one
of them out, you know. So yeah, I'm engaging with
Secretary Burgham or the new chief of the Forest Service,
trying to trying to problem solve these things. But so
(50:16):
much of it seems to be run from the perspective
of some twenty five year old looking at a spreadsheet
and not even understanding oftentimes what the program is that
they're impacting, looking for a keyword or what have you,
rather than the sort of thoughtful efficiency.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
That we would all support.
Speaker 5 (50:36):
I mean, we have something called the Government Accountability Office.
It was DOGE before DOGE was a thing. They you know,
we fund them to find efficiencies in government, and every
dollar we put into the GEO, we get over one
hundred dollars back in savings. But they're very thoughtful and
thorough and they dig into those programs ahead of time
so that you don't have the kind of chaos and
(50:59):
unintended constant sequences that we're seeing right now. And you know,
I doing what I do, caring about the things that
I care about. I know people at Fish and Wildlife
who are just they're taking the buy out and they're
they're they're good. They're out the door. They're not coming back.
And their expertise took thirty years to create and it's
(51:22):
not going to be back. It's not going to be
in the service anytime soon. And so we're going to
be firing on less than all cylinders for a long
time to come.
Speaker 3 (51:32):
We spoke about this a little bit with with Congressman Vasquez.
I always get that it's Representative Veasquez or Congressman either one,
and it's interchangeable.
Speaker 2 (51:41):
It's interchangeable.
Speaker 3 (51:42):
Okay, thank you. I learned learned something. There's decorum and
protocol in these places, and it doesn't matter how many
times I show up here.
Speaker 1 (51:51):
I don't think I get it all.
Speaker 5 (51:53):
What you need to know is the more times, the
more superlatives that you say about your good friends and
from the state of wherever, the more you're covering up
for the.
Speaker 2 (52:06):
Friction and the cost.
Speaker 3 (52:08):
All right, everybody remember that one. But we did talk
about that part of what you get when your brand
new whatever is working alongside somebody's been doing it for
a long time and getting that knowledge of like, oh, yeah,
that's what the handbook says, but that doesn't work here.
Speaker 5 (52:30):
Here's a real story. It's called mentorship.
Speaker 4 (52:32):
Right.
Speaker 5 (52:33):
Every good CEO in this country will tell you about
the importance of mentorship and how it impacted their ability
to be a better manager, to be more efficient, to
be more effective. And we're sort of short circuiting that
randomly through these agencies.
Speaker 3 (52:50):
Are we going to see a build back in these
agencies that you're aware of yet?
Speaker 5 (52:56):
I mean, the build back is just the fact that
a lot of people who were fired, they weren't laid off.
They were literally fired with emails that said, you know,
you're not doing your job. In fact, many of those
people were folks who had just been promoted because they
were doing their job well and because they were promoted,
(53:17):
their probationary for the first twelve months, So we fired
the dose. Approach to this was like to fire the
best and the brightest as opposed to finding the weak
links and trying to downsize to attrition. So we're not
in that build back phase yet and we probably won't
(53:37):
be for a little while.
Speaker 3 (53:39):
It's interesting. I felt like I came up with a
good line, and I've been trying to repeat that to everyone.
I said, you know, I know this stuff takes time,
but you got to keep in mind every hunting season
is somebody's first and at somebody's last, so this stuff's
really important.
Speaker 2 (53:57):
That is a good line.
Speaker 3 (53:58):
Well, thank you and our BHH aptors have you know,
we volunteer a lot, right, and thank you for that.
Speaker 2 (54:08):
That's a great example.
Speaker 5 (54:10):
I'll tell you a habitat specialist in New Mexico who
was working with BHA and other groups to remove fence
that was no longer serving livestock purposes in the Rio
Grande del Norte National Monument.
Speaker 2 (54:27):
You know, was one of the.
Speaker 5 (54:28):
First people to go and like, how do you like
if you don't have those people. They're the glue that
allows you to do these good wildlife projects. It's always
a partnership between somebody at the agency and the volunteer
muscle that a BHA can provide. And you know, together
you can change a landscape and uh, take out old
(54:52):
fencing that's that's interrupting elk migration or antelope migration.
Speaker 3 (54:58):
And you need to have that point of contact, that trust.
Speaker 2 (55:00):
Somebody has to.
Speaker 5 (55:01):
Pick up the phone down at the at the BLM
or the Forest Service and and actually be that point
of contact.
Speaker 3 (55:08):
We have a Kansas chapter that they they you know,
they're like, we're out there like running chainsaws and burning
stuff with our state DNR. But we started with like
picking up trash on the side of the road. So
we have to build that relationship trust. Yes, and then
when those points of contact go away, you have to
(55:28):
start over.
Speaker 5 (55:29):
Start from scratch. And nobody's going to hand you a
drip torch on day one. That's a good reason.
Speaker 2 (55:34):
Which is a good reason. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (55:36):
But and so one thing that we're hearing from state agencies,
and this is something people need to be aware of,
is that our are already allocated funds, our own fund,
our Pittman, Robertson and Dingle Johnson dollars that are then
matched with our state license and tag fees to get
(55:57):
habitat work done on the ground. What we're hearing from
all across the US is that office is basically empty.
So it's our cash for the projects, and it's hard
to get somebody to pick up the phone and get
the check sent out. And so that's been an ask
(56:18):
that we've been making, like, hey, this is.
Speaker 1 (56:20):
An easy one. Yeah, if you can make some phone calls.
Speaker 2 (56:24):
How critical is that?
Speaker 5 (56:25):
I mean, I worked on a project in New Mexico
that was really kind of a good example of how
you have to if you want to do good things
in government, you really need folks pulling together for the
local level, the state level, the federal level together. And
so we did an acquisition that became a wildlife management
(56:46):
area in New Mexico, and a key part of that
was being able to leverage Pittman Robertson dollars. And so
you know, fifty four thousand acres we were able to
conserve for wildlife in New Mexico wouldn't have gotten there
if it wouldn't have been for the CORPUS. The sort
of foundational Pittman Robertson dollars. And then we were able
(57:07):
to attract charitable dollars, and we were able to attract
you know, individual private individuals who wanted to give towards
wildlife conservation. But if it hadn't been for the PR dollars,
we would have never been able to build the budget
for that project.
Speaker 3 (57:24):
Sure, yeah, because you can say, hey, if we can
raise this amount that's fifty percent less than the total project, right,
we'll get this amount in PR dollars.
Speaker 4 (57:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (57:34):
Yeah, So it's a big, big motivator.
Speaker 2 (57:36):
On the beverage yep, big time leverage.
Speaker 1 (57:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (57:39):
And and do asks like that get some traction when
we're out here. I know there's big things going on. No,
but I'm trying to pitch it as like, hey, this
is a if you can pick up the phone call,
this is.
Speaker 5 (57:52):
No absolutely And you know, everybody, it's kind of like
college here in the sense that your commities are sort
of like you're almost like your majors or your miners.
So if you're on the right committee and you care
about this stuff, you're on Environment and Public Works. That's
that's the Wildlife Committee, Energy Natural Resources, which I'm ranking
(58:15):
member on is Relly, the Public Lands Committee, and so, uh,
if you're talking to folks who are on those committees
in particular about this stuff, they even with all the
big fights over Medicaid and Social Security and what have you, Yeah,
they care and they're they're almost committees for a reason
because it matters to them.
Speaker 1 (58:37):
That's fantastic to hear. H is there.
Speaker 3 (58:41):
I know you're you're a busy guy, So we've got
a wrapper up. But is there something outside of taking
the trip to DC that individuals can do that will
allow them to effectively lobby for their interests.
Speaker 2 (58:58):
Absolutely.
Speaker 5 (58:59):
What I would urge people to do is tell their
their genuine story of what they care about, what they're
concerned about, how they're being impacted right now, tell that
in a in a short video, and post it on
your social and I have seen more people speaking out.
(59:21):
Sometimes it's folks who just got laid off from a
trail crew. Sometimes it's a park service ranger who was
there for thirty years and is no longer you know,
able to do their job in the back country. Whatever
it is like, tell those stories because those those stories
have a way of finding finding their way in front
(59:42):
of individual members of the House and Senate when you're
you know, going through.
Speaker 2 (59:48):
Your social media.
Speaker 5 (59:50):
Those algorithms are pretty sophisticated and and I think when
the public really speaks out on a given issue, it
has a way of finding its way in front of
members of Congress, whether they want to see it or not.
Speaker 3 (01:00:05):
It's good to hear everybody certainly has a voice. Sometimes
it feels like you're throwing it into the void, but
Senator Martin Heinrich says, they'll hear you anything else.
Speaker 5 (01:00:16):
Senator thanks, you know, thanks for this platform because this
is the stuff that brings Americans together. You know, one
thing we learned during COVID is people really care about
wildlife and public lands and it's a uniter so let's
work together on it.
Speaker 1 (01:00:37):
Darn right.
Speaker 3 (01:00:38):
Well, that's all we got for you this week. Thank
you so much for listening. Remember to write in to
askcl that's Askcal at the meteater dot com. If you
have questions for Senator Heinrich, you can send them in
to us. We'll compile them and get them answered, or
we'll just have the senator back on and he can
answer them himself.
Speaker 2 (01:00:59):
Sounds great.
Speaker 1 (01:01:00):
Thanks again, we'll talk to you next week,
Host
Cal Callaghan
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