May 29, 2025 • 47 mins
In this week's interview, Cal sits down with Jason Sawyer and James Powell of the East Foundation to learn more about how their cattle operations work to conserve wildlife and habitat in the deep South of Texas.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
From Meat Eaters World News headquarters in Bozeman, Montana. This
is Col's Week in Review with Ryan col Cala. Here's Cal,
Hello everybody, It's a rainy Tuesday here in bos Angelus, Montana.
Another fantastic interview episode coming at you here on the
(00:33):
Call of the Wild podcast feed. This week, we've got
the East Foundation. If you got long memories, you may
recall some previous conversations and mentions with the East Foundation,
specifically around ocelot work. Today we will probably talk about oslots,
(00:54):
which is not an African jungle animal. We have them
here in the United States, just barely, and we're probably
going to talk about an interesting new threat to wildlife
and cattle. And really that's kind of the intersection of
(01:19):
the East Foundation, which their tagline here is we promote
the advancement of land stewardship through ranching, science and education.
We say it all the time here on the Cow's
Week in Review podcast. Tall grass makes fat cattle, and
tall grass is also great for your pollinators, your big
(01:40):
gnarley mule deer bucks or antelope bucks. Fire resistance, drought tolerance,
keeping those nasty invasive species out is just a healthy
landscape with me today is James Powell, director of Communications
for East Foundation, as well as Jason Sawyer, who's the
(02:03):
Chief Science Officer, which is a heck of a title.
Jason and Jordan, I know we've been trying to pull
this together for a while. Thank you so much for
making the time, and can you tell us a little
bit about who you are and what the East Foundation does?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Sure, yeah, we're sure glad to be with you today.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Again, it's been a minute since I think Neil visited
with y'all a little while back. The East Foundation, as
you mentioned, our mission is to promote the advancement of
land stewardship.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
But really what the East.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Foundation is is a private, working landowner that operates cattle
ranching and maintains landscapes really for the benefit of both
productive ranching operations as well as wildlife conservation.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Our operations are all in Deep South Texas.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
We operate on about two hundred and seventeen thousand acres
of private rangeland it's one hundred percent rangeland no cultivation,
no you know, real improvements other than water developments and fences.
And really our overall purpose is to maximize the long
(03:24):
term value of these landscapes and enable better decision making
by stewards of working lands, including ourselves.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
And when you say working lands, I've been, you know,
a guest invited to go check out some different conservation
programs and projects on big properties in Texas. But I
wouldn't necessarily call them working land. They're beautiful parks what
(03:59):
might be more appropriate description. But when you say working lands,
what do you mean?
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Well, sure, you know, for US, working lands is as
that would imply as are landscapes that produce. They do
their jobs, they're put to work. They provide Now, they
provide for wildlife habitat, which is an important value proposition
in many ways, but they also provide for food production,
(04:28):
they provide for open space, and really, I think the
notion of working lands is that they are intentionally productive.
We put them to work. Now, there's certainly a place
for preserves and refuges, and you know, areas that we
would say are not working lands, they've been taken out
(04:49):
of production for some other purpose. And you know, I'm
not not trying to cast any stones at that, but
the majority of land in the United States is working land,
and most of the wildlife habitat of the United states
occurs on working lands, and.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
So it's really that confluence.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
You know, the conservation of these things is how do
we achieve the wise use of these resources to maximize
their long term value? And if they don't produce anything,
then someone has to continuously invest external capital to sustain them,
(05:31):
Whereas the goal maybe of a working landscape is that
through its provisioning capability, it self generates the capital required
to sustain its multiple use. That's probably not a dictionary definition,
but certainly maybe my interpretation of what working lands are
(05:52):
as opposed as you said, you know, a park or
a refuge or a preserve.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Yeah, you're probably taking a crop of some sort off
of working lands, be it crop of calves, crop of lambs, or.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Timber. Yeah, yeah, yes, sir.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
Yeah, And and so that's really kind of the context
of of what at least we mean when we say
working lands that they produce a product, you know, and
that production is necessarily aligned with the other amenities that
that landscape provides, the other ecosystem services that people talk
(06:38):
about quite a bit, and you know, that includes the
course wildlife habitat, and it includes game species that are
a direct value contributor to those landscapes. In many cases
it includes non game species that provide other value and
and you know, have amenity value as well as conservation,
(07:02):
and I'm going to say, you know, ethical and aesthetic value,
and all of those things need to come together and
operate conjointly. And we feel like there's pretty good evidence
that stewarded appropriately, that working landscapes actually can confer the
(07:24):
best habitat and the best opportunities for those things to
be sustained into the future.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
So what's the rule that the East Foundation is focusing on?
What's the history there?
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Well, a little bit of history.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
It kind of informs I guess our views of what
we're here to do and why we're here. You know,
the East family put this land together over a couple
of generations, and they did that with livestock production. Now,
they had a deep interest and passion for wildlife, and
(08:06):
they personally enjoyed the wildlife on their properties, but they
made the decision to keep these lands intact by placing
them into a foundation that would outlive themselves right and
outlive everybody else.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
And so our charge.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
Is to continue to ranch and that is part of
our charge, and to do that in a way that
benefits wildlife and the land resource itself and provides for
scientific research and education to empower future generations of land stewards.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
So that's a little bit about our.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
History how we came into being, but it also informs
very much our mission and how we intend to accomplish that.
So we operate a working cattle operation. We're primarily a
calcalf operator. We retain ownership on some of the calves
that we produce as uterlines when forage conditions allow, and
(09:12):
in that working ranch context, we also seek to secure
the best habitat potential for the game species and non
game species that inhabit our landscapes.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
You know, South Texas is pretty.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Well known for abundant white tail deer populations for you know,
important game birds like bob white quail. We have, you know,
arguably the largest wild population of bob white quail left
in the United States in the sandsheet of South Texas.
We also are faced with some interesting newcomers relatively speaking
(09:54):
to the landscape and Nilgai antelope, which are an incredibly
interesting species that seem to have filled an ecological niche
in South Texas. Their range doesn't extend much north of
Corpus Christi Texas, so they stayed very far south, but
they're native to India. They were introduced into South Texas
(10:16):
about one hundred years ago, and that population has persisted
and become unimportant resource in the region. We're also fortunate,
depending on who you ask, they may disagree with our fortune,
but to have some notable endangered species present on our landscapes,
(10:37):
like ocelots that I know you've talked about before with
Ease foundations. And an interesting thing to note there is
that you know the presence of these endangered species, we
view that as a responsibility, right they're there, that we
hold those wildlife in the public trust. The public depends
(10:58):
on us as lands too to sustain those populations. I mean,
that's a responsibility that we have. But interestingly, cattle have
been present on this landscape for about three or.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Four hundred years, and.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
We would say that part of the reason that oslots
still call that ranch home is because it has been
a cattle ranch and it hasn't.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Been converted into other use, and.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
That landscape still because of ranching, really has remained intact.
And so we actually think that's a really positive example
and maybe the misunderstood example of the importance of working
lands and conservation.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
Yeah, like Jason said that that ranch, the El Salis
is right on the coast near Port Mansfield. If it
wasn't a working cattle ranch as we're running it right now,
that land would have been prime for development, could have
easily been converted just outside of Port Mansfield into subdivisions
(12:07):
and other highest best use you know in air quotes ways,
and those oscelots that are there, some of the last
that are in the state of Texas in the US,
probably wouldn't be there anymore if it wasn't a cattle ranch.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Yeah. You know, I was just in d C the
other week and it was chatting with a lot of
members of the egg community that were in the same
same room. And you know, I think right now there's
a real heightened awareness between the hunting side of the world,
(12:45):
the outdoors public land folks that we need to really
get some common language with with the egg producers. Protecting
those big family ranches is critical to long term wildlife
(13:07):
and habitat and you know, among many other things, right like,
we want to save ranching and wildlife, and in order
to save wildlife, you got to save ranching too, right.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
We would certainly agree with that that these things fit
together hand and glove. You know, it's not one opposed
to the other, or that they're held in tension. And
the viability of these landscapes is equally dependent on wildlife
value and livestock production value. In other words, if we
(13:42):
remove one of those, the other is likely to fail.
And so part of part of our objective, both as
stewards and operators as well as as researchers and educators,
is continuously evaluating and innovating how we best achieve those goals.
What decisions should we make. What's the best decision to
(14:06):
achieve these outcomes? And we don't always know, so we
do experiments and try to figure it out. And you know,
this notion of continuous improvement is also important there as
we think about the future, whether it's of you know,
ranching as a cultural activity or as a food producing activity,
(14:29):
or hunting as a cultural activity or a food producing activity. Right,
they share many common features and they share the same
piece of ground, and so it's in all of our
best interests to make sure that we make the wisest
decisions about being able to do those things together. For
a very long time, you know, for forever hopefully.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Well yeah, you know, the wildlife world, let's just say,
on the on the public land side of the fence,
maximizing returns for this season can have very detrimental effects
on the next season and the season after that, especially
(15:12):
taking in environmental factors. There's no difference on the private
side of the fence. If you're a cattle producer and
you overload the ranch trying to get the best return
you can for this season, well that could set up
the next season for failure or the next generation on
(15:35):
that place for failure.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
You know, we have research on like quail, right, Jason
mentioned Bob White quail in Texas. A lot of our
research and Jason can go more into this. You know,
we're doing fifty plus projects right now, research projects at
any given time, game species, non game grazing strategy, things
(16:01):
like that, and there are a lot of that research
is at the intersection of ranching and wildlife management. We
talked you mentioned harvest there cal and one of our
studies on Bob White quell is sustainable harvest of Bob
White quell. You know, one of the prescriptions in South
Texas has always been well, you can harvest twenty percent
(16:23):
of the quail every year and that'll be sustainable in perpetuity.
But no one really ever had set that up as
a true experiment in South Texas to prove whether that
was actually true or not. And so a lot of
the some of the folks on Jason's team are testing
things like that, like just how much harvest pressure can
(16:47):
a bob white quail population handle in working ranch land
South Texas landscape or not.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
A good good friend of mine, old T Edward Nickens,
Eddie Nickins, I know, has written an article or two
on some of the quail stuff, And man, if you
look at how much money goes in per bird in
a lot of famous quail areas in the US, it's
(17:20):
pretty amazing that it really boils down to a handful
of things, right, like on that healthy habitat. Everything else
is kind of marginal returns if you're not investing in
that habitat and habitat management, that's right.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
Well, and you know, that's been one of the really
interesting evolutions. And maybe you know a role that we
feel like is very important for us is you know,
we feel a responsibility to do these things we feel
responsible to understand more about better decision making for stewardship,
(18:03):
but we also have to be relevant and so doing
that in the context of a working cattle operation, and
doing that at scale on Rangeland in South Texas is
also really important. And so this our overarching COIL projects.
One of the things that's unique perhaps about us doing
(18:27):
those things is that we're deploying that at operational scale,
So that controlled experiment where we can compare a twenty
percent very strictly executed twenty percent harvest quota against non
hunted areas with grazing, you know, interspersed into that, we're
(18:50):
able to do that at you know, right now, we
have about thirty five thousand acres in the hunted treatment
and about the same out in the reference sites or
the controls the unhunted areas, all.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Of which are subject to cattle operations.
Speaker 3 (19:08):
And so at that scale, right we start to really
understand the landscape level impacts on populations and make better
decisions for individual landowners, you know, give them the ability
to use information well as well as informed regional trends,
and you know, and that's something that's difficult for many
(19:31):
others to do within the constraints of their own systems,
and so the scale of work is really important in
the duration. You know, quail populations are a great example, right,
that's a boom and bus cycle, I mean, and a
few inches of rainfall at the right time of the
year is a huge difference maker every year. And so
(19:56):
for us be it able to evaluate these things over
long periods of time. So we're about eight years in
on this sustainable coil harvest project and to be able
to execute that over long periods of time to really
understand these long term impacts, as you mentioned, is also
(20:20):
we think of a vital element of the work.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
That we do and it's you know, in research that
can be applied at least to some degree everywhere. But
you're nimble enough with your operation to actually be able
to implement this year over year and see what the
results are, which is super cool.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
And you know, one of the interesting things that comes
out of work like that kind of the intention that
we have and how we do that is as James
mentioned that you know, this notion of the intersection of
livestock production and habitat for wildlife is that you know,
quail do better with some grazing pressure they like a
(21:09):
mid serial stage rangeland you know, and they need room
to navigate and room to operate. And they they are
food sources. They want some diversity there. And we can
actually promote the beneficial aspects of habitat for quail with
properly applied grazing. And so the removal of grazing completely
from our landscapes over time is likely detrimental to quail abundance,
(21:36):
not positive for it. And so again a great example
of how, you know, all things work together for good
when we have to kind of keep our eye on
the ball, you know, and don't forsake one for the
pursuit of the other.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
We talk about this all the time in various ways, right,
But you know I'd carry the label of a hunter, right, Well,
there's plenty of hunters out there that I don't want
to be associated with. And ranching and farming. You can
see that pretty plainly looking across to let's just say
(22:15):
a bad neighbor's fence, right and you're like, well, things
are going well over there, right, And why is that?
So when you have a good model, especially when it's replicable, accessible,
it can be really contagious, right In a.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Good way volunteer your point.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
You know, we can all look around and we try
really hard to kind of operate with the mindset of
what I said, how do we enable better decision making?
And first and foremost, we want to make better decisions.
We want to do the best we can do, and
we need better information in order to make better decisions.
And that kind of fuels our science. You know, what
(23:01):
questions should we ask? Well, the things that matter that
make better help us make the best decision. And when
we look, you know, we drive down the highway and
you look over somebody else's fence, and it's pretty easy
to ranch their country for them from your your windshield.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
You know.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
And or like I said, you you know that there
might be folks that that hunt that maybe don't don't
do it in a way that's as good as it
ought to be for the betterment of the resource and
maybe even for themselves. But you know, we try pretty
hard to say, you know, it's not I would never
(23:42):
I would never kick another man's dog, you know, And
I would never presume to tell you what you ought
to do. However, I think that when we do look
across that other that other fence and think you know
that they're having a tough time, that country is in
tough shape, or it looks like a series of decisions
(24:03):
that went wrong. What drove them to that? Why is
it that way to? You know, you asked that question,
why why is it that way? And can we then
take that on and think about, Okay, somebody might have
made a series or felt forced into a series of
decisions that ended up being detrimental to the future of
(24:27):
their operation. Is there a way that we could could
generate information that would help them make a better decision
next time? Can that ranch be healed, you know, by
making a series of better decisions because they're better informed
going forward. And you know, that's the amazing thing about
(24:51):
most of these landscapes is that that you can start
making some different decisions and change the future. Sure of that,
Rangeland I mean it is within our capacity to do that,
And that's pretty powerful.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
I imagine there there's producers out there as well who
are like, I want to run this many head of
cattle on this much acreage? Can you help me do that?
Speaker 2 (25:26):
You know that that does come up quite a bit.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
And uh, and so we're also pretty honest about that.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
You know, here's here's a way.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
And we're continuously working on methods to better assess our
own capacity. You know, so, what is the capacity of
our of our land to support cattle populations, deer populations,
et cetera. How do we better assess that so that
(25:57):
we are more appropriately applying implementing population management and lifestock
management on the landscape. And yes, people frequently find themselves
in a situation where they say, well.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
I've done the math.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
I have two thousand acres of rangeland in a twenty
inch rainfall zone, and I need to run three thousand cows.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
On this in order to pay bills.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Well, that's not going to happen, you know, And so
are there ways for them to rethink or reinvent the
business where they're better able to match their utilization with
the resources they have. And you know, and sometimes the
honest truth is is that they have a mental model,
(26:52):
right that they have to do a certain thing, and
maybe what we need is to help them see that,
you know, they could innovate and find a different approach
that allowed them to operate more appropriately within the capacity
of the ranch. That's a hard thing, you know, that's
a really hard thing. But it's definitely something that comes
(27:16):
up quite and you know, and we face that ourselves.
I mean, we you know, there's a lot of incentive
to increase inventory if you're a cattle operator, but we
also recognize that there's an optimization point and finding that
is the real challenge, that that's the goal. And so
(27:38):
you know, again we face the same challenges and problems
as others, so we at least understand some of those
things that are driving decisions and how to be on guard,
you know, and not let yourself get fooled into a
decision that seems appropriate for today but maybe detrimental for tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
We were hiking a ranch in Sonora one time for
Col's deer and a friend of mine. You know, it
was similar to summer Texas, you know, real real brushy
and everything sticks you And a friend of mine said, man,
what would this place be like without cattle? And I said,
(28:21):
I don't think we'd know, because I don't think we
could hike through any of.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
It, right, right, right.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
And you know, it's like wildfire, you know, I mean,
prescribed fire is good, wildfire is bad. And you know,
all things can be overdone, but they can also be underdone.
You know, the removal of fire or the removal of
grazing altogether is often detrimental as well.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Oh yeah, and I think in this case, having that
natural in quotes deforestation.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Was good.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
It was the only thing that was up that landscape
to any other sort of forbes.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
Right, So right, how you create opportunity for the species
that those that those deer depend.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
On, you know, Yeah, because they don't live just in
the brush, neither did the turkeys or the quail. They
every part of their day for all those species, as
they get out of that stuff into the grass for
at least a little.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Bit, Yeah, go go find the goodies where they can
find them, you know. So it's interesting that, you know,
there's currently pretty big issue that I think many people
have forgotten was a problem at one point in time,
and that's New World screwworms, and and the people who
(29:53):
do have some scarce memory of that pest perceive it
as a livestock problem. You know that that was a
problem in the you know, early nineties, well, late eighteen hundreds,
early nineteen hundreds, before it's eradication in the nineteen sixties
in the US, people you know, perceived that was a
(30:17):
livestock operators problem and don't recognize that the enormous impact
that that had on wildlife populations. You know, screwworms in
Texas in the nineteen fifties, eighty plus percent of the
fawn crop would be lost every year to screwworms. And
(30:39):
you know, an adult deer succumbed to as well bucks,
you know, during rut when they injure themselves, become susceptible and.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Perish from that.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
And so you know, after screwworms were eradicated in Texas,
the deer population doubled within the next five years and
has quinn tippled since that time, went from you know
about you know a million and a half maybe some
(31:11):
some estimates under a million white tailed deer in Texas
to almost six million today. And you know, is that
all because the screwworm eradication. No, but certainly that was
a significant depressant on those populations.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
That's been relieved and and again.
Speaker 3 (31:28):
People perceive it as a livestock problem, but kind of like,
you know, the ranchers and the hunters are really all
on the same side here.
Speaker 4 (31:38):
Yeah, that parasite can infect any any warm blooded mammal.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
I mean it.
Speaker 4 (31:43):
You know what we talked about, Nilghai, We've talked about
you know, there's there's a feral hog issue now, so
you've got a bunch of feral hogs that could be
vectors for those screw worms. They can even infect humans.
So down in Central America, where it's always still been around,
there are non human infection cases. And it doesn't always
(32:07):
have to be a gaping open wound. At Jason's point,
it might just be a tick bite that becomes infected
by a screwworm and then within a matter of days
you have a serious, even life threatening infection on your hands.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
And you know where this.
Speaker 4 (32:23):
Is something that's kind of, like Jason said, it's been forgotten,
but all of a sudden, it's a big deal again.
You're seeing it and then on Fox News and you're
hearing the Secretary of Agriculture talk about it now all
of a sudden, because it's like it's coming north again
out of Central America into into Mexico. I know Jason
(32:43):
and his science team are tracking this very carefully because,
as he said, it's not only going to potentially affect
us as producers, it could devastate wildlife populations and in
South Texas or as far north as those will be
able to move. Right, it's a big potential problem, not
(33:06):
just for ranchers but also for hunters.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
And so where where's East Foundation weighing in on this?
You're you're monitoring, Jason, but are there some potential projects here?
Speaker 3 (33:21):
Well, you know, we are trying really hard to be
a voice and also trying to connect. You know, thankfully,
USDA zag Research Service has never given up the fight
on screw worms and they have an entomology unit a
(33:41):
Llow here in Texas who works primarily on on these
sorts of insect pests and tick pests, and they have
sustained research over the last fifty years to continue to
develop methods to you know, do surveillance and response and
(34:02):
produce the sterile flies that are used to combat screwworms
and eradicate eradicate that pest. So we've made sure to
engage with them and see how we might be able
to engage in research programs with them to increase surveillance
capabilities and innovate technologies for surveillance of the pest, because
(34:25):
you have to know it's there before you can do
anything else about it. Certainly we want to be engaged
with with other organizations and inform landowners and operators again,
create that awareness that this is certainly a livestock problem,
(34:45):
but not only a livestock problem. You know, you mentioned
being on a property in Texas that maybe had dedicated
themselves exclusively to wildlife management. Those folks are very vulnerable
here and often again they don't perceive the threat because
(35:07):
they associate it with livestock, and so our engagement here
really is to understand the problem, enable better decision making
by informing folks seeing beyond the obvious and recognizing the
eminence of the threat and its importance in the United
(35:28):
States to our food supplies but also to wildlife conservation.
You know, we talked about the last remaining population of
oslots you know in deep South Texas. Well, they get
tick bites too. They are susceptible to this as well.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
You know, it's not just a.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
Livestock problem, and so so you know, I'll be honest
with you, I hope and pray that we know have
the opportunity to do direct research about treatment for screw.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Worms on our operations. Yeah, I hope they don't ever
get here because they don't get here.
Speaker 4 (36:09):
And the big thing that, you know, the thing that
needs to be encouraged right now, is the redevelopment and
restarting of sterile fly production production facilities. So the way
that this was fought back was a couple of I
mean it was genius, really, a couple of scientists came
(36:30):
up with this idea where you breed sterile male screwworm flies.
They then out compete the males in the wild to
breed with the females in the wild. And so by
the sterile males breeding with the females and not producing
(36:51):
viable progeny over a lot of quick generations of reproduction,
they wiped that they wiped themselves out by by being
outbred by sterile mals that we were making in factories
by the hundreds of millions. So it was a genius
solution to the problem, maybe one of the best pest
(37:13):
control things that's ever happened in human history. The problem
is is that once we got rid of them in
this part of the world and push them all the
way back down into Central America to basically what people
are I think referring to is the dairy and gap
area right, that very very remote area in Panama. Now
(37:34):
they quit producing the flies except in one place. So
what needs to potentially happen now, and maybe fairly quickly,
is that we get some of those product those sterile
fly production facilities built and back online very quickly, so
that we can deploy those quickly if they're needed, you know,
(37:56):
if they get out of southern Mexico into ord the
Mexico and start getting up to the our southern border
and threatening you know, like like Jason has said, it's
not just a cow problem, it's going to be a
wildlife problem as well.
Speaker 3 (38:11):
And a great example there, you know, is that you know,
to James's point, like, hey, we want we we pushed
it out, pushed it all the way out of the US,
all the way south across Mexico, all the way down
south of Panama.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
We want.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
And and you left you left one one place on
guard duty. Yet you got one production facility in the
world remaining that produces sterough flies and trying to keep
that threat at bay. Well, some jumped over the wall, right,
(38:52):
they overwhelmed the last remaining guard there, and so now
that facility is perduction capacity might not be enough to
keep up the fight.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
So you got to have you got to have more.
Speaker 3 (39:10):
And again, fortunately the ag Research Service with USDA has
a strain that they've developed that if put into practice,
could probably double the production of that one facility pretty rapidly.
But even that might not be enough. And some additional
production facilities further north, you know, in the US because
(39:34):
now it's in Mexico. It's kind of jumped over the guard, right,
and you got to push it back. So this is
something obviously that's on our minds a lot right now,
and we're trying to be the best partner we can
be to other research agencies and to the the you know,
(39:56):
USDA and state level and health agencies like ATHIS for USDA,
or Texas Animal Health Commission in Texas Parks and Wildlife
within Texas to be forward looking and think about how
we manage this threat. And it's certainly not something that
we can wait for, you know, we need to go
(40:19):
to it, not not wait for it to come to us.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
Yeah. Boy, it might be like an emergency funding situation
here depending on what federal dollars get released. But as
you're saying, hopefully the awareness is enough to prevent an
emergency situation anyway.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
Absolutely, And you know, again we're private landowners and we're
not necessarily you know, I'm must speak for myself. I
don't believe necessarily that the government needs to take care
of everybody every single day. But there are roles, right,
(41:03):
This is one of those roles when you have a
threat that is larger than any one entity.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
And when we.
Speaker 3 (41:11):
Look at the historical effort here, it was a combination
of private landowners and organizations, conservation groups, livestock organizations, and
the federal government that came together to create the solution.
(41:31):
And that's kind of where we see ourselves today is
you know, this is an effort, this is what this
is what government is for, is to safeguard the resources
and productivity of the nation. And this is that sort
of an issue.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
And like you said, it's not just a producer's issue.
The wildlife effects are us You're talking about on a
normal year having eighty fond mortality. Is that's impactful.
Speaker 3 (42:09):
And and you know how rapidly that decimates the population
right to an unhuntable, unsustainable level. And you know it
affects people in town too. You know, the effects on
productivity and their recreational opportunities and the price of food.
(42:31):
You know, all of these things are affected. And you know,
I'm the last person to ever want to, like, you know,
be a fearmonger or anything like that.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
But reality is reality.
Speaker 3 (42:44):
And helping people understand the importance of this kind of
an issue when it might seem far away from them,
you know, is we think important and something we're certainly
you know, spending a lot of our our thought energy
on right now.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
For sure?
Speaker 1 (43:03):
Are you telling me that hunters aren't the only ones
who only get off their butts when the threats in
their backyard.
Speaker 3 (43:11):
I think that's a human condition, you know, closest alligator
to the boat, and and sometimes it's helpful to have
you know, I've got my youngest son is really good.
If you stand him up a little bit higher on
the boat, he can see a little further out, and
he's got better eyes than me, and he can sometimes
see something from further away than I can. And it's
(43:34):
useful to have a lookout, you know, and turn right.
We all have to tend with to you know, contend
with today's problem. But but we need to keep our
eye on the one that could be a way bigger
problem tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Yep, that's the truth. Well, I'd love to have you
back on and dig into this es a topic as
it evolves here in the US.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
Another interesting development, right.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
Sup, Super interesting and it's just just too big to
fit in this episode. But if folks want to get
a hold of the East Foundation and you know, learn
more about this crossroads of ranching wildlife habitat, sustainable long
(44:27):
term use and yields also screwworm or you know, having
a working landscape that involves endangered species such as the ocelot,
or maybe it would be lesser prairie chicken ranching country
or greater sage grouse ranching country, or or right forridging pigmyls,
(44:53):
blackfoot ferrets. That damn list? How did? How do folks
get a hold of you?
Speaker 4 (45:00):
So we have a We just just put out a
brand new website at www dot Eastfoundation dot net. So
that website is months old and specifically designed to be
a great repository and online library of information about all
(45:23):
the things we do, all the research we do with
all of our university and agency partners. You can find
out about what we're doing for the oslot issue, what
we're studying in terms of game species like nilghai quail,
whitetail deer, and what we're doing in terms of ranching
research and operation, you know, adaptive management and ranching as well.
(45:47):
So our website East Foundation dot nets probably the best
place to go. We also have a Facebook and Instagram.
Just look up just type in east Foundation and you'll
you'll find us there. You've been putting out information on
this screw worm issue on social media with links and
(46:07):
direction to other resources so people can get up to
speed on this really quickly by following us there.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
Excellent, excellent. Well, if folks have additional questions, Chief Science
Officer Jason Sawyer, please right into ask c A l
ask Cal at the meeteater dot com. Will either get
these folks back on which I think we should, or
I'll get your questions to them and we'll answer them
(46:36):
on the show.
Speaker 3 (46:37):
Well, we would look forward to the opportunity to visit
with you more about any of these or other topics.
We just really appreciate all y'all do and the great
awareness that you'll bring to Honting in the intersection of
these issues and how important they are, you know for
everyday people. I mean being relevant matter, and and we
(47:01):
just really value everything that you do at Meat Eater
and appreciate the opportunity to visit with you today and
would love to have a chance to do it again.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
Oh darn right, we'll make it happen. You guys, keep
keep working on keeping the working lands in working fashion,
not turning into condos, and we'll we'll be buddies for sure.
So thank you so much, and we'll talk to you.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
Soon, Yes, sir, take care, Thank you. Thanks,
From Meat Eaters World News headquarters in Bozeman, Montana. This
is Col's Week in Review with Ryan col Cala. Here's Cal,
Hello everybody, It's a rainy Tuesday here in bos Angelus, Montana.
Another fantastic interview episode coming at you here on the
(00:33):
Call of the Wild podcast feed. This week, we've got
the East Foundation. If you got long memories, you may
recall some previous conversations and mentions with the East Foundation,
specifically around ocelot work. Today we will probably talk about oslots,
(00:54):
which is not an African jungle animal. We have them
here in the United States, just barely, and we're probably
going to talk about an interesting new threat to wildlife
and cattle. And really that's kind of the intersection of
(01:19):
the East Foundation, which their tagline here is we promote
the advancement of land stewardship through ranching, science and education.
We say it all the time here on the Cow's
Week in Review podcast. Tall grass makes fat cattle, and
tall grass is also great for your pollinators, your big
(01:40):
gnarley mule deer bucks or antelope bucks. Fire resistance, drought tolerance,
keeping those nasty invasive species out is just a healthy
landscape with me today is James Powell, director of Communications
for East Foundation, as well as Jason Sawyer, who's the
(02:03):
Chief Science Officer, which is a heck of a title.
Jason and Jordan, I know we've been trying to pull
this together for a while. Thank you so much for
making the time, and can you tell us a little
bit about who you are and what the East Foundation does?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Sure, yeah, we're sure glad to be with you today.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Again, it's been a minute since I think Neil visited
with y'all a little while back. The East Foundation, as
you mentioned, our mission is to promote the advancement of
land stewardship.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
But really what the East.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Foundation is is a private, working landowner that operates cattle
ranching and maintains landscapes really for the benefit of both
productive ranching operations as well as wildlife conservation.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Our operations are all in Deep South Texas.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
We operate on about two hundred and seventeen thousand acres
of private rangeland it's one hundred percent rangeland no cultivation,
no you know, real improvements other than water developments and fences.
And really our overall purpose is to maximize the long
(03:24):
term value of these landscapes and enable better decision making
by stewards of working lands, including ourselves.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
And when you say working lands, I've been, you know,
a guest invited to go check out some different conservation
programs and projects on big properties in Texas. But I
wouldn't necessarily call them working land. They're beautiful parks what
(03:59):
might be more appropriate description. But when you say working lands,
what do you mean?
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Well, sure, you know, for US, working lands is as
that would imply as are landscapes that produce. They do
their jobs, they're put to work. They provide Now, they
provide for wildlife habitat, which is an important value proposition
in many ways, but they also provide for food production,
(04:28):
they provide for open space, and really, I think the
notion of working lands is that they are intentionally productive.
We put them to work. Now, there's certainly a place
for preserves and refuges, and you know, areas that we
would say are not working lands, they've been taken out
(04:49):
of production for some other purpose. And you know, I'm
not not trying to cast any stones at that, but
the majority of land in the United States is working land,
and most of the wildlife habitat of the United states
occurs on working lands, and.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
So it's really that confluence.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
You know, the conservation of these things is how do
we achieve the wise use of these resources to maximize
their long term value? And if they don't produce anything,
then someone has to continuously invest external capital to sustain them,
(05:31):
Whereas the goal maybe of a working landscape is that
through its provisioning capability, it self generates the capital required
to sustain its multiple use. That's probably not a dictionary definition,
but certainly maybe my interpretation of what working lands are
(05:52):
as opposed as you said, you know, a park or
a refuge or a preserve.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Yeah, you're probably taking a crop of some sort off
of working lands, be it crop of calves, crop of lambs, or.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Timber. Yeah, yeah, yes, sir.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
Yeah, And and so that's really kind of the context
of of what at least we mean when we say
working lands that they produce a product, you know, and
that production is necessarily aligned with the other amenities that
that landscape provides, the other ecosystem services that people talk
(06:38):
about quite a bit, and you know, that includes the
course wildlife habitat, and it includes game species that are
a direct value contributor to those landscapes. In many cases
it includes non game species that provide other value and
and you know, have amenity value as well as conservation,
(07:02):
and I'm going to say, you know, ethical and aesthetic value,
and all of those things need to come together and
operate conjointly. And we feel like there's pretty good evidence
that stewarded appropriately, that working landscapes actually can confer the
(07:24):
best habitat and the best opportunities for those things to
be sustained into the future.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
So what's the rule that the East Foundation is focusing on?
What's the history there?
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Well, a little bit of history.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
It kind of informs I guess our views of what
we're here to do and why we're here. You know,
the East family put this land together over a couple
of generations, and they did that with livestock production. Now,
they had a deep interest and passion for wildlife, and
(08:06):
they personally enjoyed the wildlife on their properties, but they
made the decision to keep these lands intact by placing
them into a foundation that would outlive themselves right and
outlive everybody else.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
And so our charge.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
Is to continue to ranch and that is part of
our charge, and to do that in a way that
benefits wildlife and the land resource itself and provides for
scientific research and education to empower future generations of land stewards.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
So that's a little bit about our.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
History how we came into being, but it also informs
very much our mission and how we intend to accomplish that.
So we operate a working cattle operation. We're primarily a
calcalf operator. We retain ownership on some of the calves
that we produce as uterlines when forage conditions allow, and
(09:12):
in that working ranch context, we also seek to secure
the best habitat potential for the game species and non
game species that inhabit our landscapes.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
You know, South Texas is pretty.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Well known for abundant white tail deer populations for you know,
important game birds like bob white quail. We have, you know,
arguably the largest wild population of bob white quail left
in the United States in the sandsheet of South Texas.
We also are faced with some interesting newcomers relatively speaking
(09:54):
to the landscape and Nilgai antelope, which are an incredibly
interesting species that seem to have filled an ecological niche
in South Texas. Their range doesn't extend much north of
Corpus Christi Texas, so they stayed very far south, but
they're native to India. They were introduced into South Texas
(10:16):
about one hundred years ago, and that population has persisted
and become unimportant resource in the region. We're also fortunate,
depending on who you ask, they may disagree with our fortune,
but to have some notable endangered species present on our landscapes,
(10:37):
like ocelots that I know you've talked about before with
Ease foundations. And an interesting thing to note there is
that you know the presence of these endangered species, we
view that as a responsibility, right they're there, that we
hold those wildlife in the public trust. The public depends
(10:58):
on us as lands too to sustain those populations. I mean,
that's a responsibility that we have. But interestingly, cattle have
been present on this landscape for about three or.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Four hundred years, and.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
We would say that part of the reason that oslots
still call that ranch home is because it has been
a cattle ranch and it hasn't.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Been converted into other use, and.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
That landscape still because of ranching, really has remained intact.
And so we actually think that's a really positive example
and maybe the misunderstood example of the importance of working
lands and conservation.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
Yeah, like Jason said that that ranch, the El Salis
is right on the coast near Port Mansfield. If it
wasn't a working cattle ranch as we're running it right now,
that land would have been prime for development, could have
easily been converted just outside of Port Mansfield into subdivisions
(12:07):
and other highest best use you know in air quotes ways,
and those oscelots that are there, some of the last
that are in the state of Texas in the US,
probably wouldn't be there anymore if it wasn't a cattle ranch.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Yeah. You know, I was just in d C the
other week and it was chatting with a lot of
members of the egg community that were in the same
same room. And you know, I think right now there's
a real heightened awareness between the hunting side of the world,
(12:45):
the outdoors public land folks that we need to really
get some common language with with the egg producers. Protecting
those big family ranches is critical to long term wildlife
(13:07):
and habitat and you know, among many other things, right like,
we want to save ranching and wildlife, and in order
to save wildlife, you got to save ranching too, right.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
We would certainly agree with that that these things fit
together hand and glove. You know, it's not one opposed
to the other, or that they're held in tension. And
the viability of these landscapes is equally dependent on wildlife
value and livestock production value. In other words, if we
(13:42):
remove one of those, the other is likely to fail.
And so part of part of our objective, both as
stewards and operators as well as as researchers and educators,
is continuously evaluating and innovating how we best achieve those goals.
What decisions should we make. What's the best decision to
(14:06):
achieve these outcomes? And we don't always know, so we
do experiments and try to figure it out. And you know,
this notion of continuous improvement is also important there as
we think about the future, whether it's of you know,
ranching as a cultural activity or as a food producing activity,
(14:29):
or hunting as a cultural activity or a food producing activity. Right,
they share many common features and they share the same
piece of ground, and so it's in all of our
best interests to make sure that we make the wisest
decisions about being able to do those things together. For
a very long time, you know, for forever hopefully.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Well yeah, you know, the wildlife world, let's just say,
on the on the public land side of the fence,
maximizing returns for this season can have very detrimental effects
on the next season and the season after that, especially
(15:12):
taking in environmental factors. There's no difference on the private
side of the fence. If you're a cattle producer and
you overload the ranch trying to get the best return
you can for this season, well that could set up
the next season for failure or the next generation on
(15:35):
that place for failure.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
You know, we have research on like quail, right, Jason
mentioned Bob White quail in Texas. A lot of our
research and Jason can go more into this. You know,
we're doing fifty plus projects right now, research projects at
any given time, game species, non game grazing strategy, things
(16:01):
like that, and there are a lot of that research
is at the intersection of ranching and wildlife management. We
talked you mentioned harvest there cal and one of our
studies on Bob White quell is sustainable harvest of Bob
White quell. You know, one of the prescriptions in South
Texas has always been well, you can harvest twenty percent
(16:23):
of the quail every year and that'll be sustainable in perpetuity.
But no one really ever had set that up as
a true experiment in South Texas to prove whether that
was actually true or not. And so a lot of
the some of the folks on Jason's team are testing
things like that, like just how much harvest pressure can
(16:47):
a bob white quail population handle in working ranch land
South Texas landscape or not.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
A good good friend of mine, old T Edward Nickens,
Eddie Nickins, I know, has written an article or two
on some of the quail stuff, And man, if you
look at how much money goes in per bird in
a lot of famous quail areas in the US, it's
(17:20):
pretty amazing that it really boils down to a handful
of things, right, like on that healthy habitat. Everything else
is kind of marginal returns if you're not investing in
that habitat and habitat management, that's right.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
Well, and you know, that's been one of the really
interesting evolutions. And maybe you know a role that we
feel like is very important for us is you know,
we feel a responsibility to do these things we feel
responsible to understand more about better decision making for stewardship,
(18:03):
but we also have to be relevant and so doing
that in the context of a working cattle operation, and
doing that at scale on Rangeland in South Texas is
also really important. And so this our overarching COIL projects.
One of the things that's unique perhaps about us doing
(18:27):
those things is that we're deploying that at operational scale,
So that controlled experiment where we can compare a twenty
percent very strictly executed twenty percent harvest quota against non
hunted areas with grazing, you know, interspersed into that, we're
(18:50):
able to do that at you know, right now, we
have about thirty five thousand acres in the hunted treatment
and about the same out in the reference sites or
the controls the unhunted areas, all.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Of which are subject to cattle operations.
Speaker 3 (19:08):
And so at that scale, right we start to really
understand the landscape level impacts on populations and make better
decisions for individual landowners, you know, give them the ability
to use information well as well as informed regional trends,
and you know, and that's something that's difficult for many
(19:31):
others to do within the constraints of their own systems,
and so the scale of work is really important in
the duration. You know, quail populations are a great example, right,
that's a boom and bus cycle, I mean, and a
few inches of rainfall at the right time of the
year is a huge difference maker every year. And so
(19:56):
for us be it able to evaluate these things over
long periods of time. So we're about eight years in
on this sustainable coil harvest project and to be able
to execute that over long periods of time to really
understand these long term impacts, as you mentioned, is also
(20:20):
we think of a vital element of the work.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
That we do and it's you know, in research that
can be applied at least to some degree everywhere. But
you're nimble enough with your operation to actually be able
to implement this year over year and see what the
results are, which is super cool.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
And you know, one of the interesting things that comes
out of work like that kind of the intention that
we have and how we do that is as James
mentioned that you know, this notion of the intersection of
livestock production and habitat for wildlife is that you know,
quail do better with some grazing pressure they like a
(21:09):
mid serial stage rangeland you know, and they need room
to navigate and room to operate. And they they are
food sources. They want some diversity there. And we can
actually promote the beneficial aspects of habitat for quail with
properly applied grazing. And so the removal of grazing completely
from our landscapes over time is likely detrimental to quail abundance,
(21:36):
not positive for it. And so again a great example
of how, you know, all things work together for good
when we have to kind of keep our eye on
the ball, you know, and don't forsake one for the
pursuit of the other.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
We talk about this all the time in various ways, right,
But you know I'd carry the label of a hunter, right, Well,
there's plenty of hunters out there that I don't want
to be associated with. And ranching and farming. You can
see that pretty plainly looking across to let's just say
(22:15):
a bad neighbor's fence, right and you're like, well, things
are going well over there, right, And why is that?
So when you have a good model, especially when it's replicable, accessible,
it can be really contagious, right In a.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Good way volunteer your point.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
You know, we can all look around and we try
really hard to kind of operate with the mindset of
what I said, how do we enable better decision making?
And first and foremost, we want to make better decisions.
We want to do the best we can do, and
we need better information in order to make better decisions.
And that kind of fuels our science. You know, what
(23:01):
questions should we ask? Well, the things that matter that
make better help us make the best decision. And when
we look, you know, we drive down the highway and
you look over somebody else's fence, and it's pretty easy
to ranch their country for them from your your windshield.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
You know.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
And or like I said, you you know that there
might be folks that that hunt that maybe don't don't
do it in a way that's as good as it
ought to be for the betterment of the resource and
maybe even for themselves. But you know, we try pretty
hard to say, you know, it's not I would never
(23:42):
I would never kick another man's dog, you know, And
I would never presume to tell you what you ought
to do. However, I think that when we do look
across that other that other fence and think you know
that they're having a tough time, that country is in
tough shape, or it looks like a series of decisions
(24:03):
that went wrong. What drove them to that? Why is
it that way to? You know, you asked that question,
why why is it that way? And can we then
take that on and think about, Okay, somebody might have
made a series or felt forced into a series of
decisions that ended up being detrimental to the future of
(24:27):
their operation. Is there a way that we could could
generate information that would help them make a better decision
next time? Can that ranch be healed, you know, by
making a series of better decisions because they're better informed
going forward. And you know, that's the amazing thing about
(24:51):
most of these landscapes is that that you can start
making some different decisions and change the future. Sure of that,
Rangeland I mean it is within our capacity to do that,
And that's pretty powerful.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
I imagine there there's producers out there as well who
are like, I want to run this many head of
cattle on this much acreage? Can you help me do that?
Speaker 2 (25:26):
You know that that does come up quite a bit.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
And uh, and so we're also pretty honest about that.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
You know, here's here's a way.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
And we're continuously working on methods to better assess our
own capacity. You know, so, what is the capacity of
our of our land to support cattle populations, deer populations,
et cetera. How do we better assess that so that
(25:57):
we are more appropriately applying implementing population management and lifestock
management on the landscape. And yes, people frequently find themselves
in a situation where they say, well.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
I've done the math.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
I have two thousand acres of rangeland in a twenty
inch rainfall zone, and I need to run three thousand cows.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
On this in order to pay bills.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Well, that's not going to happen, you know, And so
are there ways for them to rethink or reinvent the
business where they're better able to match their utilization with
the resources they have. And you know, and sometimes the
honest truth is is that they have a mental model,
(26:52):
right that they have to do a certain thing, and
maybe what we need is to help them see that,
you know, they could innovate and find a different approach
that allowed them to operate more appropriately within the capacity
of the ranch. That's a hard thing, you know, that's
a really hard thing. But it's definitely something that comes
(27:16):
up quite and you know, and we face that ourselves.
I mean, we you know, there's a lot of incentive
to increase inventory if you're a cattle operator, but we
also recognize that there's an optimization point and finding that
is the real challenge, that that's the goal. And so
(27:38):
you know, again we face the same challenges and problems
as others, so we at least understand some of those
things that are driving decisions and how to be on guard,
you know, and not let yourself get fooled into a
decision that seems appropriate for today but maybe detrimental for tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
We were hiking a ranch in Sonora one time for
Col's deer and a friend of mine. You know, it
was similar to summer Texas, you know, real real brushy
and everything sticks you And a friend of mine said, man,
what would this place be like without cattle? And I said,
(28:21):
I don't think we'd know, because I don't think we
could hike through any of.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
It, right, right, right.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
And you know, it's like wildfire, you know, I mean,
prescribed fire is good, wildfire is bad. And you know,
all things can be overdone, but they can also be underdone.
You know, the removal of fire or the removal of
grazing altogether is often detrimental as well.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Oh yeah, and I think in this case, having that
natural in quotes deforestation.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Was good.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
It was the only thing that was up that landscape
to any other sort of forbes.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
Right, So right, how you create opportunity for the species
that those that those deer depend.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
On, you know, Yeah, because they don't live just in
the brush, neither did the turkeys or the quail. They
every part of their day for all those species, as
they get out of that stuff into the grass for
at least a little.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Bit, Yeah, go go find the goodies where they can
find them, you know. So it's interesting that, you know,
there's currently pretty big issue that I think many people
have forgotten was a problem at one point in time,
and that's New World screwworms, and and the people who
(29:53):
do have some scarce memory of that pest perceive it
as a livestock problem. You know that that was a
problem in the you know, early nineties, well, late eighteen hundreds,
early nineteen hundreds, before it's eradication in the nineteen sixties
in the US, people you know, perceived that was a
(30:17):
livestock operators problem and don't recognize that the enormous impact
that that had on wildlife populations. You know, screwworms in
Texas in the nineteen fifties, eighty plus percent of the
fawn crop would be lost every year to screwworms. And
(30:39):
you know, an adult deer succumbed to as well bucks,
you know, during rut when they injure themselves, become susceptible and.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Perish from that.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
And so you know, after screwworms were eradicated in Texas,
the deer population doubled within the next five years and
has quinn tippled since that time, went from you know
about you know a million and a half maybe some
(31:11):
some estimates under a million white tailed deer in Texas
to almost six million today. And you know, is that
all because the screwworm eradication. No, but certainly that was
a significant depressant on those populations.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
That's been relieved and and again.
Speaker 3 (31:28):
People perceive it as a livestock problem, but kind of like,
you know, the ranchers and the hunters are really all
on the same side here.
Speaker 4 (31:38):
Yeah, that parasite can infect any any warm blooded mammal.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
I mean it.
Speaker 4 (31:43):
You know what we talked about, Nilghai, We've talked about
you know, there's there's a feral hog issue now, so
you've got a bunch of feral hogs that could be
vectors for those screw worms. They can even infect humans.
So down in Central America, where it's always still been around,
there are non human infection cases. And it doesn't always
(32:07):
have to be a gaping open wound. At Jason's point,
it might just be a tick bite that becomes infected
by a screwworm and then within a matter of days
you have a serious, even life threatening infection on your hands.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
And you know where this.
Speaker 4 (32:23):
Is something that's kind of, like Jason said, it's been forgotten,
but all of a sudden, it's a big deal again.
You're seeing it and then on Fox News and you're
hearing the Secretary of Agriculture talk about it now all
of a sudden, because it's like it's coming north again
out of Central America into into Mexico. I know Jason
(32:43):
and his science team are tracking this very carefully because,
as he said, it's not only going to potentially affect
us as producers, it could devastate wildlife populations and in
South Texas or as far north as those will be
able to move. Right, it's a big potential problem, not
(33:06):
just for ranchers but also for hunters.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
And so where where's East Foundation weighing in on this?
You're you're monitoring, Jason, but are there some potential projects here?
Speaker 3 (33:21):
Well, you know, we are trying really hard to be
a voice and also trying to connect. You know, thankfully,
USDA zag Research Service has never given up the fight
on screw worms and they have an entomology unit a
(33:41):
Llow here in Texas who works primarily on on these
sorts of insect pests and tick pests, and they have
sustained research over the last fifty years to continue to
develop methods to you know, do surveillance and response and
(34:02):
produce the sterile flies that are used to combat screwworms
and eradicate eradicate that pest. So we've made sure to
engage with them and see how we might be able
to engage in research programs with them to increase surveillance
capabilities and innovate technologies for surveillance of the pest, because
(34:25):
you have to know it's there before you can do
anything else about it. Certainly we want to be engaged
with with other organizations and inform landowners and operators again,
create that awareness that this is certainly a livestock problem,
(34:45):
but not only a livestock problem. You know, you mentioned
being on a property in Texas that maybe had dedicated
themselves exclusively to wildlife management. Those folks are very vulnerable
here and often again they don't perceive the threat because
(35:07):
they associate it with livestock, and so our engagement here
really is to understand the problem, enable better decision making
by informing folks seeing beyond the obvious and recognizing the
eminence of the threat and its importance in the United
(35:28):
States to our food supplies but also to wildlife conservation.
You know, we talked about the last remaining population of
oslots you know in deep South Texas. Well, they get
tick bites too. They are susceptible to this as well.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
You know, it's not just a.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
Livestock problem, and so so you know, I'll be honest
with you, I hope and pray that we know have
the opportunity to do direct research about treatment for screw.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Worms on our operations. Yeah, I hope they don't ever
get here because they don't get here.
Speaker 4 (36:09):
And the big thing that, you know, the thing that
needs to be encouraged right now, is the redevelopment and
restarting of sterile fly production production facilities. So the way
that this was fought back was a couple of I
mean it was genius, really, a couple of scientists came
(36:30):
up with this idea where you breed sterile male screwworm flies.
They then out compete the males in the wild to
breed with the females in the wild. And so by
the sterile males breeding with the females and not producing
(36:51):
viable progeny over a lot of quick generations of reproduction,
they wiped that they wiped themselves out by by being
outbred by sterile mals that we were making in factories
by the hundreds of millions. So it was a genius
solution to the problem, maybe one of the best pest
(37:13):
control things that's ever happened in human history. The problem
is is that once we got rid of them in
this part of the world and push them all the
way back down into Central America to basically what people
are I think referring to is the dairy and gap
area right, that very very remote area in Panama. Now
(37:34):
they quit producing the flies except in one place. So
what needs to potentially happen now, and maybe fairly quickly,
is that we get some of those product those sterile
fly production facilities built and back online very quickly, so
that we can deploy those quickly if they're needed, you know,
(37:56):
if they get out of southern Mexico into ord the
Mexico and start getting up to the our southern border
and threatening you know, like like Jason has said, it's
not just a cow problem, it's going to be a
wildlife problem as well.
Speaker 3 (38:11):
And a great example there, you know, is that you know,
to James's point, like, hey, we want we we pushed
it out, pushed it all the way out of the US,
all the way south across Mexico, all the way down
south of Panama.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
We want.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
And and you left you left one one place on
guard duty. Yet you got one production facility in the
world remaining that produces sterough flies and trying to keep
that threat at bay. Well, some jumped over the wall, right,
(38:52):
they overwhelmed the last remaining guard there, and so now
that facility is perduction capacity might not be enough to
keep up the fight.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
So you got to have you got to have more.
Speaker 3 (39:10):
And again, fortunately the ag Research Service with USDA has
a strain that they've developed that if put into practice,
could probably double the production of that one facility pretty rapidly.
But even that might not be enough. And some additional
production facilities further north, you know, in the US because
(39:34):
now it's in Mexico. It's kind of jumped over the guard, right,
and you got to push it back. So this is
something obviously that's on our minds a lot right now,
and we're trying to be the best partner we can
be to other research agencies and to the the you know,
(39:56):
USDA and state level and health agencies like ATHIS for USDA,
or Texas Animal Health Commission in Texas Parks and Wildlife
within Texas to be forward looking and think about how
we manage this threat. And it's certainly not something that
we can wait for, you know, we need to go
(40:19):
to it, not not wait for it to come to us.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
Yeah. Boy, it might be like an emergency funding situation
here depending on what federal dollars get released. But as
you're saying, hopefully the awareness is enough to prevent an
emergency situation anyway.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
Absolutely, And you know, again we're private landowners and we're
not necessarily you know, I'm must speak for myself. I
don't believe necessarily that the government needs to take care
of everybody every single day. But there are roles, right,
(41:03):
This is one of those roles when you have a
threat that is larger than any one entity.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
And when we.
Speaker 3 (41:11):
Look at the historical effort here, it was a combination
of private landowners and organizations, conservation groups, livestock organizations, and
the federal government that came together to create the solution.
(41:31):
And that's kind of where we see ourselves today is
you know, this is an effort, this is what this
is what government is for, is to safeguard the resources
and productivity of the nation. And this is that sort
of an issue.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
And like you said, it's not just a producer's issue.
The wildlife effects are us You're talking about on a
normal year having eighty fond mortality. Is that's impactful.
Speaker 3 (42:09):
And and you know how rapidly that decimates the population
right to an unhuntable, unsustainable level. And you know it
affects people in town too. You know, the effects on
productivity and their recreational opportunities and the price of food.
(42:31):
You know, all of these things are affected. And you know,
I'm the last person to ever want to, like, you know,
be a fearmonger or anything like that.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
But reality is reality.
Speaker 3 (42:44):
And helping people understand the importance of this kind of
an issue when it might seem far away from them,
you know, is we think important and something we're certainly
you know, spending a lot of our our thought energy
on right now.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
For sure?
Speaker 1 (43:03):
Are you telling me that hunters aren't the only ones
who only get off their butts when the threats in
their backyard.
Speaker 3 (43:11):
I think that's a human condition, you know, closest alligator
to the boat, and and sometimes it's helpful to have
you know, I've got my youngest son is really good.
If you stand him up a little bit higher on
the boat, he can see a little further out, and
he's got better eyes than me, and he can sometimes
see something from further away than I can. And it's
(43:34):
useful to have a lookout, you know, and turn right.
We all have to tend with to you know, contend
with today's problem. But but we need to keep our
eye on the one that could be a way bigger
problem tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Yep, that's the truth. Well, I'd love to have you
back on and dig into this es a topic as
it evolves here in the US.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
Another interesting development, right.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
Sup, Super interesting and it's just just too big to
fit in this episode. But if folks want to get
a hold of the East Foundation and you know, learn
more about this crossroads of ranching wildlife habitat, sustainable long
(44:27):
term use and yields also screwworm or you know, having
a working landscape that involves endangered species such as the ocelot,
or maybe it would be lesser prairie chicken ranching country
or greater sage grouse ranching country, or or right forridging pigmyls,
(44:53):
blackfoot ferrets. That damn list? How did? How do folks
get a hold of you?
Speaker 4 (45:00):
So we have a We just just put out a
brand new website at www dot Eastfoundation dot net. So
that website is months old and specifically designed to be
a great repository and online library of information about all
(45:23):
the things we do, all the research we do with
all of our university and agency partners. You can find
out about what we're doing for the oslot issue, what
we're studying in terms of game species like nilghai quail,
whitetail deer, and what we're doing in terms of ranching
research and operation, you know, adaptive management and ranching as well.
(45:47):
So our website East Foundation dot nets probably the best
place to go. We also have a Facebook and Instagram.
Just look up just type in east Foundation and you'll
you'll find us there. You've been putting out information on
this screw worm issue on social media with links and
(46:07):
direction to other resources so people can get up to
speed on this really quickly by following us there.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
Excellent, excellent. Well, if folks have additional questions, Chief Science
Officer Jason Sawyer, please right into ask c A l
ask Cal at the meeteater dot com. Will either get
these folks back on which I think we should, or
I'll get your questions to them and we'll answer them
(46:36):
on the show.
Speaker 3 (46:37):
Well, we would look forward to the opportunity to visit
with you more about any of these or other topics.
We just really appreciate all y'all do and the great
awareness that you'll bring to Honting in the intersection of
these issues and how important they are, you know for
everyday people. I mean being relevant matter, and and we
(47:01):
just really value everything that you do at Meat Eater
and appreciate the opportunity to visit with you today and
would love to have a chance to do it again.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
Oh darn right, we'll make it happen. You guys, keep
keep working on keeping the working lands in working fashion,
not turning into condos, and we'll we'll be buddies for sure.
So thank you so much, and we'll talk to you.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
Soon, Yes, sir, take care, Thank you. Thanks,
Host
Cal Callaghan
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