August 1, 2025 • 55 mins
This week, Cal talks with Ted Koch, the CEO of the North American Grouse Partnership and a retired USFW endangered species biologist. Cal and Ted talk North Dakota sage grouse which was recently proclaimed "extinct" from it's native ND habitat. The state of America's grasslands, why grasslands matter, and how you can get involved.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
From Meat Eaters World News headquarters in Bozeman, Montana. This
is Col's Week in Review with Ryan cal Calaan.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Here's Cal.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Welcome to another episode of Cal's Week Interview, or Cal
the While, as we're calling all things these days. Good
friend of mine, Ted Cook with the North American Grouse Partnership.
Ted and I have known each other for a long time.
In fact, he's been on this podcast, but in a
very reserved capacity, and he generously gave the big spotlight
(00:46):
that he deserves to a bunch of ranchers that are
part of the Lesser Prairie Chicken land Owner Alliance. Ted
is a return hired and endangered species biologist. He is
the current CEO of North American Grouse Partnership. Correct yes, yes, yeah,
(01:12):
And we shot this out a little bit online the
other week. North Dakota has officially announced that the greater
sage grouse is The headline said extinct, but it would
(01:33):
be extirpated, would be the more.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
That's the better word. Yeah, extinct, it's like final everywhere.
This has just gone from this part of the range.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yeah, but it's they're the greater sage grouse is an
amazing bird. I love it. I grew up hunting that bird.
I hunt them every season and they're just like another
example of conservation. Isn't convenient because they need a specific
(02:02):
habitat to proliferate. Really they can hang on, but they
don't do well without old growth sagebrush.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Right yep, and the lack of tall structures. Just healthy
sage rush habitat, that's all. It's simple, healthy sagebrush habitat.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Yeah. So that's why Ted Cook is on and we're
going to talk about not only the greater sage grouse,
but we'll probably get into some other gallinaceous species. And
the only reason I know that word galinacious is from
teb So so if that's not reason for spotlight enough,
(02:43):
I don't know what it is. How we're sage grouse doing.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Well, you know? So I'll start with this framing cal
of the nine prairie grouse populations present in North America historically,
six of them are either extinct or recognized under the
Endangered Species Act, and the other three are declining. So
greater sage grouse are among the three are declining, along
(03:10):
with sharp tailed grouse and greater prairie chickens. The other
six you know, heath hens are extinct. That's the eastern
prairie grouse that's been extinct for a century at waters.
Prairie chickens Texas Coast are functionally extinct in the wild,
trying to reintroduce, and you've got greater you have two
populations of lesser prairie chickens, you have two smaller populations
of sage grouse, and they're all either listed or candidates
(03:31):
for are listing under the Endangered Species Act. And so
prairie grouse in general are in decline, have been declining.
And perhaps your listeners already know that grasslands in which
all these prairie grouse, including sage grouse depend on. Grasslands
are the most threatened ecosystem on the continent and then
the world. And it's the mission of the North American
Grouse Partnership to try to highlight this fact and use
(03:54):
these charismatic galinacious birds as you say, that's the you
of these chickens, turkeys, quailed, their gallinasous birds are the
ground oriented birds to use the prairie grouse. And so
that's greater prairie chickens, lesser prairie chickens, sharp tailed grouse,
sage grouse, those are the kind of the four species
groups of prairie grouse. The North Mary Grouse Partnership is
(04:16):
trying to feature these prairie grouse species, highlight their plight,
and issue our call for action to stop and reverse
the losses of grasslands the most threatened ecosystem, so greater
stage grouse among that, they're just on that downward trend
along with everything else.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Now, some of my listeners are going to know this already,
but we just talked about greater sage grouse needing the
sage brush. So why are you saying grasslands? Yes, great question.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
So the sagebrush ecosystem is more precisely referred to as
the sage brush step ecosystem. Step. Now, that's step spelled
step pe and step with the extra P in the
extra e means grass land, so it's sagebrush grass land.
And so then you know sharp tail grouse and other
(05:09):
prairie grouse a lot of places where sharptail grass exists,
they can actually coexist with some shrub component in there
with sage grouse. Uniquely, they are sage brush obligates. But
rare is it that you will find a sage brush,
particularly in areas with sage grouse that's taller than say
three or four feet high. If you get structures eight
(05:30):
feet tall or taller, that begins to become a turnoff
for prairie grouse. They do not do well around tall structures.
They've evolved to avoid tall structures because tall structures are
where raptors purge to hunt them. And so sage grouse
kind of fall onto that moniker of prairie grouse because
it's sage brush step sage rush grass land ecosystem, and
(05:51):
the sage brush isn't much taller than the grass around it.
But yeah, stage grouse are really unique in the prairie
grouse world in that there they can exist without that
low sage component in their grassland habitat.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
So I guess why have we seen the not extirpation,
but the extinction of these other grouse species.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Yeah, the other grouse populations as we call them. It's
you know, biology is actually a lot messier than you think.
You know, what's the species, what's the subspecies, what's the population?
And so a lot of times population is determined by
how we manage them. Other times it's determined more by
genetic or other biochemical differences. Other times it's determined by
(06:42):
differences in habitat. But at the nine populations, heathens became extinct,
and to a significant degree because of overhunting settlers settled
on the East coast Man they were a convenient chicken
to eat for dinner. And the last one was last seen.
The last male was seen strutting by itself for the
last two years of its life on Martha's Vineyard in Massachusetts,
(07:05):
the last bastion of heathens. And then you get Atwater's
Perry chickens along the Texas Gulf Coast. And that's all
the rest of the piagraphs cal It's habitat loss and fragmentation,
and so Atwater's Perry chickens and all the Leicester Prairie
chickens now the Southwestern Great Plains recently listed under the
Endangered Species Act, all habitat loss and fragmentation.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
And do you want to just explain fragmentation? You know,
I can explain some of this stuff, I promise, But
my golden rule is, once you get a biologist talking
about their thing, it's best to just let them roll.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
So fragmentation, you know a lot of us who love
to hunt fish know this when we think about you know,
mule deer or pronghorn migrations right just you know, a
subdivision in the wrong spot, or you know, a deer
proof fence in the wrong spot can massively disrupt fragment
habitat for those large mammals. Same exact thing for prairie grouse.
(08:07):
You put a power line corridors through a swath of
good looking prairie grouse habitat, and those prairie grouse see
that as an enormous obstacle to get past. You put
a highway underneath that, it's gotten even worse. And then
you till some of that range land and you convert
into a farm ground using some of the eggs subsidies
that pay you to do it, even if you never
(08:28):
get a crop off of it, and that's it. That
fragments habitat. That habitat is fragmented, you know, for a
long time to come.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
So fragmentation, right can be anything from a new housing
subdivision would be like a big example. But in the
case of these prairie birds where they are predisposed to avoid,
we're talking hundreds of thousands of years of predator evasion
(08:58):
have taught them to avoid tall st ructures. It can
be something as simple as people planning the wrong type
of trees or a power line corridor, you know, which
we can fix things like that a lot easier than
(09:20):
we can some of the other forms of development. Yeah,
and then on the habitat loss side of things, we're
typically seeing what agricultural changes moving from grazing to row crop.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Yeah, that's right. And so egg and energy development are
the two big ones across the range of the various
prairie grouse species. And yeah, the big one is And
I didn't even realize this until I started working with
the ranchers the last protecal lander alliance. But what happens
is US Department of Bag offers subsidies to landowners to
(10:00):
break out their grasslands, turn them into tilled farmland, and
they get paid the full value of that crop for
that year, even if they never pull off a crop.
And so if you're a rancher, you're faced with make
and say, you know whatever, one hundred bucks an acre
selling cows or one hundred and fifty bucks an acre
guaranteed payment from the federal government if you break out
(10:22):
your grand and ground and try to farm it, whether
you ever pull off a crop or not. I mean,
what would most of us do. Would you want to
get paid one hundred dollars an acre to do more
work or one hundred and fifty dollars an acre to well,
you know, we would pick the one hundred fifty dollars
an acre. Whether it's more or less work depends on
the circumstance.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Well, sure, yeah, I understand that part of it. But
how do you reconcile the fact that the Endangered Species
Act is also largely handled at the federal level. So
isn't the ESA talking to the Department of Agriculture.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Yeah, so that's a great question. So in the air
in the one place, I guess, now, to two places
where we have prairie grouse species listed to the Endandered
Species Act, don't those prohibitions prohibitions against take of endangered
species prevent those programs from being implemented. And the short
answer is yes, they would if the fact set caused
(11:27):
it to be so. But prairie growths are notoriously difficult
to find and monitor, and they move around to different
places at different times of the year, and so and
all of this is private land, private Rangeland and so
if a rancher says, you know, I want to break
out those hundred acres over here and get paid to
(11:48):
farm it, it's pretty difficult to develop a fact set
around there and have evidence and then have the federal
government have the temerity to try to prosecute that landowner
to prevent them from converting to farmland. That's the reality
is that's just not happening right now, that kind of prohibition.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Yeah, And why would it ever need to get to prosecution.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Well, because there's lots of contradictory policies in the federal
government that go on being implemented side by side forever.
And so for the Department of Interior to persuade the
Department of Agriculture to not offer those subsidies in certain
areas because of prairie gross seems untenable to me, because
(12:33):
then those ranchers in those areas that want to break
out their ranch land are going to say, what are
you talking about? Why can't I do this? I'm not
harming chickens when I do this. You can't prove that,
you know, pay me to be a farmer instead of
a rancher. So that's the conflicting policies. There's not a
natural fit to have one policy talked to.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
The other and have them work it out, which is
why it seems like something you could work out. Well, yeah,
what's the hurdle here? Yeah, so, and in fact you can.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
And this is the leadership that Lesser pratickal Land Alliance
wants to provide. So what they're saying because some of
our less Praticklenar Alliance members, one of them, in particularly,
he earns ten thousand acres. Five thousand of that is
in farming. Five thousand of that is in ranching. That's
permanently conserved for lesser prairie chickens. The reason that five
thousand is permanently conserved is because when his neighbors and
(13:29):
other business people approached him and said, hey, we can
break out another three thousand of your remaining five thousand
acres of grassland and turn that into farm ground. You
can double your money overnight. That rancher said, thanks, but
no thanks. I want to stay a rancher. I know
I could sell out, I know I could make more money,
but I really want to keep this as ranch land.
And part of the reason why is He is one
(13:51):
of the most passionate archery, deer and antelope punters you
will ever meet in your life. He gets it, he
gets it right, and he loves Leicester prairie chickens, and
he feels it's his responsibility to steward lesser prairie chickens,
and he patiently sought out opportunities to sell a conservation
easement on his land to a conservation buyer to permanently
(14:13):
protect the five thousand acres for chickens. But it shouldn't
have to be that hard. It shouldn't take an exceptional
rancher like that, who loves hunting and loves lesser prairie
chickens to spend fifteen years of his life trying to
save ranching and chickens on his land. We need to
make it easier than that. And so what the Lester
pur Checking Land our Alliance proposes is to do just that,
(14:34):
to just agricultural policy, to not only make it easier
to break down to become a farmer, to make it
easier to stay a rancher, to get paid to be
a rancher, and provide the whole wealth of ecosystem services
that come along with healthy range lands.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
And that is there's no balance, right. It's like you
can get paid one hundred and fifty dollars to fimat
or you can get paid less to keep it in grazing.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Yeah, and so you know ranching say it pays one
hundred buck and I'm throwing these numbers out, but say
ranching pays one hundred bucks an acre to sell your cows
one hundred and fifty bucks an acre guaranteed if you
break it out and try to harm, even if you're
not successful. Our proposal is to say, look look at
all the ecosystem services that come along with these healthy
range lands, clean water, clean air, more water, healthy soils,
(15:24):
healthy vegetation, healthy wildlife populations, carbon storage, and the massive
roots of these grassland ecosystems. These are all values that
Americans want to keep and they want to pay for.
In fact, we appropriate billions of dollars a year for
the express purpose of paying for these values. Yet it's
not going on the grounds sufficiently in the right places
(15:45):
to stop and reverse the loss of grasslands. And so
the list Perrie Chicken Lander Alliance is very specifically identified
forty two counties, and the methods by which the public
is invited to pay them for these ecosystem services to
make up the difference between one hundred dollars an acre
and one hundred and fifty dollars an acre. Then at
least a rancher could say, do I want to get
(16:06):
paid one hundred and fifty dollars an acre to break
out into farm ground? Or I do want to get
paid one hundred and fifty dollars an acre to grow
cows and provide ecosystem services together combined, which will get
me one hundred and fifty dollars an acre. That's the
magic that we're pursuing, giving the public the opportunity to
pay that extra fifty bucks an acre to keep it
(16:26):
in rangeland and keep lesser perry chickens and keep mule deer,
and keep pronghorn.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Keep pollinators, keep the tolerance, Yes, keep co assistance, all
that good stuff. Yeah, yeah, this is a little bit
of a tangent. But over here in the Shields Valley
just north of Livingston, Montana, new golf course going in,
(16:54):
or it's already in, and all sorts of lawsuits around
it because they're watering it. It'll so you got to
keep the sod and the greens watered, and it is
the basically the furthest western huntable population of greater sage
grouse in the state. And as far as I know,
(17:18):
they're not a golf course bird.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Yeah, it really ticks me off. Like I said, it's tangent.
We don't need to need to dwell on that. Maybe
I just need to go over there and cut those
flags on the green down a little shorter.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
But if it's another great example, here's where it's not
a tangent cow. Lesser prairie chickens became listed under the
Endangered Species Act on our watch. On Hunter's Watch eleven
years ago, you could hunt lesser prairie chickens. Today they're
listed under the Endangered Species Act. And you know we're
you know, talking about are going to be talking about,
(17:56):
you know, sage grouse in North Dakota. And I was
just talking to Jesse Cole, who North Dakota Game and
Fish supervises the program that did the counts that failed
to detect any mechs on the mails on the leck
of this spring. Jesse made the comment to me just
before I got on this program, cal that what really
he's seen this coming for a long time. He's not
that surprised. What really concerns him is that thirty to
(18:17):
fifty years from now, sharp tail grouse will be following
sage rouse in North Dakota if current trends continue. That
should scare the crap out of every one of your listeners.
And it's because of the things that you just talked
about there, you know, north of Livingstone, and US hunters
are letting these things happen day after day, year after
year because there's no one alarm. It's the boiling the
(18:39):
frog thing, right where if you know, put a frog
in a pot of water, turn on the heat, it'll die.
If you throw in a pot of hot water, it'll
immediately jump out. Well, the frog's been sitting in cool water,
and that water's getting pretty warm now when it comes
to grasslands and prairie grouse. And so that story that
you tell is yet another example of where we as hunters,
and we as Americans, not just US hunters, but where
(19:02):
some more, at some point we have to find the
opportunity to wake up and stand up and say no,
we need to save these places.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
And I know people don't like to think of it
in terms of a resource. Right, But if you do,
you have a really unbelievable public resource in these huntable species.
And in order to have huntable species, as we just
(19:31):
talked about, there's all these ecosystem benefits that come along
with making sure those huntable species are there, that's right.
And you balance that with the fact that there's a
couple of landowners that are going to make a ton
of money with a golf course for a very very
(19:54):
exclusive experience for a handful of people, in comparison to
the folks that could be out walking around and spending
gas money and food money in small towns pursuing gallinaceous birds.
(20:16):
So in which like I don't have an answer to
right other than talking about this stuff that I know
and feel so strongly is such an amazing thing, resource,
whatever you want to call it. Having those experiences in
(20:37):
my life have certainly benefited me, I feel. But when
we talk about North Dakota and this recent article that
came out in The Green Wire proclaiming that the sage
grouse is extinct from North Dakota part of its native range,
what happens specifically in North.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Dakota habitat loss and fragmentation.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
In the form of anything different.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Yeah, so the two biggest drivers I was talking with
Jesse Color again North Dakota, game and fish egg and
energy development, which is the same thing in the southwestern
right plains everywhere else, and specifically he talked about breaking
out farm ground using farm Bill's subsidies. He also talked
about ranchers developing or improving range lands by chaining or
(21:29):
burning sagebrush so there's more grass for the cows to eat.
And then energy development. They've got a lot of oil
and gas there in North Dakota, a lot of energy
transmission going on as well. I'm sure they've got renewables
I don't.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
Know, right, some more more vertical structures, but also a
lot more traffic out there servicing that's right, wells and
pumps and highways and fence lines, yeah, even fence lines.
You know, all those things are wear and tear on
grassland loving species. And it's not just sage grouse I mentioned.
(22:03):
You know, Western Kansas mule deer are really in sharp decline.
You know, we already have a listed population of pronghorn
in the US in Arizona listed under the Endangered Species Act.
How long is it going to be before we list
pronghorn somewhere and say in the southwestern Great Plains or
in the northern Great Plains, or wherever else some scientists
finds a genetically distinct population.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
They're all in decline. Right as grasslands go, so go pronghorn,
so go mule deer.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
California has got an endangered population of pronghorn as well.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
That I think you might be right. Yeah, and so
and you know here again Jesse cull ours words to
me in North Dakota this a while ago. You know,
sage grouse. He's disappointed about sharp tail grouse. Thirty to
fifty years from now. He's scared for Yeah, we should
all be scared. We should all, we should.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
And you know, sage grouse to me are an incredible,
very special bird. I think there's probably a greater population
of birders that are in love with the sage grouse
than hunters that that are in love with the sage grouse.
Because folks who grew up in sage grouse country were
(23:18):
told while in the womb that you couldn't eat a
sage grouse. But the truth be told, Yeah, greater sage
grouse ties are about the best eaten gallinaceous bird meat
there is. In my opinion, they're fantastic and huge. They're also,
(23:39):
you know, an incredible bird for getting somebody their first double.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
If you're shooting an over and under your side by
side because they just don't move.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Fast, that's right, you have time.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it is. It's one of those
things where were it a light clicks on in somebody's
head where they're like, oh my gosh, this is actually possible.
I can flush a bird, I can identify it, I
can get the safety off, I can shoot it, and
(24:14):
then I can look for the next bird and get
it too. And then that really does apply to all
the faster birds and more challenging birds. And you know,
I'm sure a lot of people are like, why the
hell are you talking about hunting birds that you're you've
already talked about is extirpated from states and endangered. And
(24:43):
you know the reason is is because somehow, some way
we need to aside. I'd like you to provide the
biological reason, but the social reason I'm providing is somehow,
some way we need people to be invested in this bird.
And the more invested they are, the more easily we
(25:05):
can activate them to stand up for these big charismatic
birds and then to jump over to the sharp tail grouse.
The reason I brought up how few people relatively hunting
appreciate the greater sage growse. Well, there's probably one hundred
(25:29):
times the amount of people who spend big money and
travel thousands of miles to hunt sharp tails with their
fancy pointing dogs.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Absolutely, and another terrific upland bird. It is a fantastic
upland bird. Yeah, they're not a lot faster than sage grouse.
I'll tell you that they're faster, but not a lot.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Yeah, it's just a smaller target. Yeah, and those people
need to stand up right now too, because by and
large it's the same habitat. Yeah, you can hunt the
brushy stuff as you mentioned for sharp tales, but they're
(26:14):
not going to stick around if all there is is
plowed fields and hedgerows. They need that, they need that grassland.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Step Yep, that's right.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
So what is it? What's the biological answer to hunting
these populations?
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Yeah, so hunting is not a threat to most species
managed for hunting today. You know, one of the most
famous examples is the trajectory of snow goose populations in
North America over the last twenty thirty years. I mean,
they've fluctuated wildly from low to extremely high, back down
to kind of low again, and hunting is zero percent
(26:58):
influence on those mass fluctuations. And the same thing as
said for prairie gause populations. Very different circumstance from waterfowl.
But the reason we continue to lose prairie grouse populations
is habitat loss and fragmentation that has nothing to do
with hunting. In fact, the more people we can get
to hunt and be interested in hunting, the more people
(27:19):
we have to advocate to keep those remaining habitats. Now,
now here's the thing that's really tricky for most prairie grouse.
Sage grouse are a little bit of an exception, but
I'll use lesher prairie chickens as the example. Over ninety
percent of remaining lesser prairie chicken habitat is on private
range lands. It's on private ground managed for grazing. And
(27:40):
here's the kicker. Ranching pays less than any other form
of land use. That's why grasslands are the most threatened
ecosystem on the continent. Of the world and why lush
preire chingins are all listed under the essay because somebody
can knock on their door and say farm land, solar, wind,
oil and gas transmission subdivision blah blah blah. Right, and
(28:03):
and so hunting just doesn't hold a candle to the
massive negative impacts of all those different competing forms of development.
And in fact, hunters are neat must be. Hunters must
be a part of the solution. And if we hunters
are not a part of the solution, we will not
(28:24):
save prairie goes. I feel that it's that clear, it's
that strong, it's that direct. If we don't stand up
for what we love, who will? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (28:37):
Oh yeah, I mean, and it's just anytime, you know,
I'll be driving back over to South Dakota this late fall,
early winter is what's on the books right now, and
I guarantee you I'll see folks installing drain.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Tile and that's right.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
And you know, things that we just cannot get back,
those intermittent wetlands that all of a sudden disappear.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Yeah, I mean that they need that water, they need
those wet edges, They need a whole bunch of little
wet edges, and that's exactly what farmers tile first. Yes,
that's right.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Yeah, So what does you know the rank and file
American have to say about something as big as the
farm bill, especially what you're talking about, which is trying
to get another program or or I know, you know,
(29:41):
we've talked about the North American Grasslands Conservation Act, something
that big into existence.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Yeah. So this is where Ted's weird thinking gets feed.
So we have lots of incredible conservation groups out there,
Peasants Forever, National Wildlife Federation who are leading the charge
on Farmville policies and policy changes that have been and
(30:12):
are really important. We've got National Wildlife Federation really providing
excellent leadership on North American Grassans Conservation Act. And by
the way, North Americ Gross Partnership supports all these things.
But the tact that we have taken, given the fact
that we've recently admitted lesser prairie chickens to the emergency
room of conservation by listing them under the Endangerous Species Act,
(30:32):
as we said, you know what, let's go ask the
people who actually own the land if they care, and
if they say they care, let's ask them what they
need and now we have the Lesser Prairie Chicken Landowner Alliance,
which is a bunch of very caring, visionary, passionate landowners
who love wildlife and who love lesser Prairie chickens. And
(30:55):
some of them even loved to hunt, as I said,
And so we asked them, and you know what, the
first thing they said. The LPCLA started a little over
three years agow first call, we said, They said, you
know what, Ted, Nobody's ever asked us before what we want.
And they said, here's what we don't want. We don't
want subsidies, we don't want cost share, we don't want incentives.
(31:17):
And that's all what the Farm Bill is all about.
And these are people that know, because not only are
some of our ranchers, some of them are also farmers
that participate in those subsidy programs. But it's not the
way they want to make a living. They don't want
a subsidy. They know they've got values on their land
that all Americans want and want to pay for, including
these valuable ecosystem services clean air, clean water, healthy soils, wildlife.
(31:43):
They would love to save an endangered species, they just
can't afford to pay for it. Out of their own pocket,
and they simply want to offer the American public the
opportunity to pay for that alongside of growing beef and
feeding Americans, which is the real reason they're on that
land in the first place. And so that's the difference
in this tact. It's not the North American Grouse Partnership
(32:04):
going to Congress or the administ Trump administration saying hey,
let's do this, let's do that. We're supporting these landowners
gathering their own voice and doing it. And here's the
real parallel to the hunters and anglers. You've got to
kick out of this, your listeners. Will ranchers became ranchers
because they'd rather be out on the land amongst animals
and not around people. How about us hunters and anglers, right,
(32:29):
I mean, we like to hunt and fish because we
like to go out in the woods by ourselves instead
of being around people. Same principle. Right. Well, to try
to get these landowners, these ranchers, to say, hey, put
on your best cowboy hat and pair of jeans and
let's fly to Washington, DC and talk to some people.
That is anathema to these individuals. And it is a long,
slow process. Now they want to do it. They want
(32:50):
to be empowered to do it. The North American Grouse
Partnership and this Retired and Endangered Species biologists you're talking
to you right now, cal is trying to figure out
how to do with it. And we're getting terrifics from
wonderful humans like Maryland Vettor with Pheasants Forever and and
folks with Nationalwideffederate Nation Conservancy. But we're right in the
middle of this journey right now, empowering these people who
actually own the land and participate in the programs to
(33:13):
say what they need to save grasslands in prairie grass
and and and it's to get paid fair market value
for the ecosystem services that they've been giving away for
generations on their lands.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
I all the meetings I had on on the hill
in d C a few months ago, I would just say, hey,
I got a real easy one for you. I'm like,
you ever heard of the Lesser Prairie Chicken Land Owner Alliance?
You ever heard of grazing land. I'm like, here's a
bunch of conservative folks by and large, Yeah, that really
(33:50):
needs some help. Give them, give them a reason to
stay in business, you know, And it's one of those
things that helping on the private side of the fans
is the biggest part of the solution puzzle that we
(34:11):
have with a lot of these species.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
And a lot of these states. That's right, that's right.
And you know recent Appropriations bill included increased funding for
VPA hip right, that's voluntary public access habotat improvement for
states to pay for more access to these private lands
for hunters. Yep. And let's pair that up with long
term permanent conservation that keeps ranchers ranching while continuing to
(34:36):
grow an endangered species and mule deer and quail and
everything else. I mean, this isn't that hard, and it's
not even that expensive, and we don't even need a
new pile of money to do it. We just need
to take the dollars we're already putting towards these programs
and spend them in a more strategic and focused area.
So the losers might be, say, people closer to Kansas
(34:57):
City who really don't have much left on their property
in terms of wildlfe, and the winners are these people
on remote ranches in the western part of Kansas, for example,
who can sustain these last best places in our grass
land ecosystems.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Yeah, and I know on the state level, you know,
Kansas was working on some language that would you know,
make sure that those public access to private land dollars
were spent in a more strategic way by making sure
there's good habitat yes on the properties before providing those
(35:33):
access dollars to a property there where occasionally an animal
might pass through.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
That's right, and.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
I think you know, probably a base level solution here
is people just need to pay attention and be involved.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Right, That's right, That's right. And in the bottom line
is again, you know, if if ninety percent of the
habit of the land is privately owned, let's ask these people,
do you care? And if so, how can we help
you help us? That's the strategy the North American House
Partnership is taking. And that's what it's you know, when
you say pay attention, call that's the thing that's I
(36:11):
don't know, it just hasn't been part of the conservation
communities thinking to stand behind the private landowner to conserve
I think when hunters and anglers think of private land,
they think of owning a parcel of the sake and
hunter fish on it. They don't think of supporting some
private landowner out there to provide the habitat to support
(36:33):
the species that they love. And it's and I get it.
I mean that's it's a bit of a new paradigm,
but it's also immediately logical, I think and foreseeable that
this is if we're going to save the most threatened
ecosystem on the continent and then the world, that's what
it's going to take. Either that or we buy it
all up. And I don't see that happening anytime soon.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
No, And you know, there's so many competing interests on
on you know, both private and public ground, but you know,
like the location of wind farms and solar and to
me speaking, you know clearly and frankly, some of this
(37:15):
is the result of people does not wanting to do
the hard work. Okay, it's all that land, the same
old thing of like, well all that public lands not
doing anything, Why don't we just stick it out there?
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Yeah? Yeah, no, and we unfortunately we do have public
land parcels in here. Those can become part of the equation.
But yeah, it's if we're going to save the most
threatened ecosystem of the continent, it requires a new paradigm.
It requires partnering with the people who own it and
who want to save it as well, finding those people
who want to save it alongside the rest of us
(37:52):
people who care, and then agreeing on how we can
become partners to do so. That's all.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
Yeah, And you're not talking about the big scary government
overreach scenario, right.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
This is all povoluntary participation. That's right. We're not gonna
nobody's going to make any landowner do anything they don't
want to do. But that's why it's really important to
find those landowners who really care and who want the
same outcomes as we conservationists want. I mean, that's really
where the magic begins, finding those landowners that care just
like us.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
And folks who are listening. You got to be reminded, right,
there's you know, in my mind, somewhere around we'll call
it upper five hundred million acres of huntable federally managed
public land in the US we always say six hundred
and forty million, but be a little more objective at
stuff that you can actually hunt. It's lower and land
(38:50):
set aside, specifically specifically for agriculture in the United States
are just under two billion acres.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
So I didn't know that.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
If and don't ever let this be separated into an
either or yeah type of conversation.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
We got to get past that.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
We got to grow up and be adults and understand
that if we really want it, nothing's got to be
in either or. But one side of the fence is
going to facilitate the other side of the fence, and
vice versa. But we got to fight to make it happen.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
So cal, that's a great number. I'm going to highlight
that five hundred million public huntable public land acres, two
billion acres dedicated.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
To ag Yeah, I would over yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
Okay, And so why wouldn't we then turn to these
lands that already harbor so many of the species that
we love to hunt for and fish for, and work
with the people who own the land to figure out
how to conserve it long term and provide access.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
All right, sorry, Ted, let me let me let's I
just found my notes here again. Okay, this is where
I was going with this. Three hundred and forty million
people in the United States. Let's say there's five hundred
and ninety million huntable acres under federal management, right, so
(40:25):
that is by to fall open to three hundred and
forty million people in the United States, right, so you
know it's that's roughly person every let's say like one
acre and change. Yeah, and then there agriculture specifically privately
(40:55):
held one point one nine billion acres, okay, right, so
basically elbow yeah. But the public estate is.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
So yeah. So if we've got double uh, you know,
the amount of private land and it harbors all these
species that we love to pursue and that we value
in other ways, then you know, why wouldn't we find
new and important ways to partner with those who actually
own the lands and the habitats about how to sustain that?
Speaker 1 (41:27):
Yep, yep, because there's threats to all of the above.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Obvious, that's right, and it's I tell you, it's a
funny thing we have. We were a couple of ranchers
in North Texas are on the Less Bridging Atlanta Alliance.
If you met them off the street, you'd think they're
the crustiest, most anti government, you know, hardcore North Texas
ranchers you could ever see you walk off the pages
of a of a book. They are a couple of
(41:59):
the most hard core environmentalists when it comes to trying
to keep wind energy from taking the last lesser prairie
chickens in their county. They are desperate for help to
save lesser prairie chickens. And it's not just about the chickens.
It's about their ranching and about all the other wildlife.
And it's about the chickens too. Their hearts are as
(42:21):
green as some of the greenest environmentals you ever met.
It's beautiful. It makes you want to cry. And if
we can't find ways to identify these awesome humans that
have the special privilege of owning these lands and support them,
we're not doing right by our children's children. We're not
doing all we can do to make sure our children's
(42:42):
children have access to these resources. We've got to forge
these new pathways in these new partnerships.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
And it's a low hanging fruit, right, like these people
are voluntarily wanting to do it. Yes, if we can't
help them, we're basically giving up exactly.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
Our interests are so aligned it's hilarious. Yeah, So when
wouldn't we know that at first?
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Where are we on the North American Grasslands Conservation I Act?
Speaker 2 (43:12):
Oh, a little bit stalled out, you know, Congress has
headed a recess here in a couple of weeks, but
we've made a lot of good progress. I think we've
gotten a couple of co sponsors on either side of
the aisle in Cali. Let's see, I'm trying to think
of the last call I participated in on that. So
I would say, in the bigger picture sense, we continue
(43:32):
to make steady progress, and we're getting closer and closer
to the kind of support you'd eventually want to see
for a bill like this. And this is going to
be one of those kinds of bills that's obviously going
to be many years in the making, as it's already
been a couple of years. But the champions of it,
you know, National Wildlife Federation, Peasants Forever and others can
continue to take steps every day, and then partner groups
(43:55):
like the North American Grouse Partnership, we occasionally weigh in
where we can to try to continue to build support
for that. So still a ways away, but we're closer
than we've been before.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
And the nuts and bolts of that one is a
huge part of what we're talking about right It's finding
that way to facilitate the stewardship of these grasslands through
kind of a sister model to the North American Wetlands
Conservation Act, which is basically the only thing out there
(44:33):
aside from a few state programs that are helping people
make the right decision when it comes to draining that
intermittent wetland or keeping it producing as is.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
That's right. And they do it by buying conservation, you know,
by paying money. Again, these are private lands. These people
trying to figure out how much how they can how
they can best make money off these lands. One of
the ways they can make money is by selling conservation.
A lot of people want to do that, a lot
of people really care. And you said it, right, cal,
I mean, this is North America Grasslands Act model out
(45:09):
to North American Wetlands Conservation Act. And then some people ask, well,
you got all these farm bill programs under USDA, and
then you got the Wetlands Act and soon to be
Grasslands Act under the Apartment of the Interior. Why two
different departments? Why why can't they all just be one?
And here's the answer. Under farm bill programs on the
US Department of Agriculture, those programs are designed to help
(45:31):
producers while helping conservation, but under the Department of the
Interior with the North American Wetlands Act and the Grasslands Act,
those programs are designed to help conservation while helping the producer,
right different priority. One starts with the producer tries to
affect conservation, the other one starts with conservation reaches out
to the producer, and that co mingling of priorities across
(45:53):
the landscape has really done well for conserving wetlands on
the northern plains, and we'd like to see that for
grasslands everywhere.
Speaker 1 (46:04):
And Ted, do you have any resources you could point
people to for seeing some of these birds, like when
it's dancing season, when they're out on the les and
folks just want to see how charismatic these critters are.
(46:24):
Do you have any resources you could point them to there?
Speaker 2 (46:26):
Yeah, so on the Grounds Partners dot org website, we
have some resources the individual state wildlife management agencies. I
think we'll have resources as well. For lesser prairie chickens.
There's actually a guy does a commercial operation and I
can't say the name of his operation right now, but
I think if you looked up lesser prairie chicken viewing,
(46:47):
you'd pretty quickly find an opportunity to do that, and
it's on one of our lesser period tickle Land Alliance's
ranches where he's got blinds built on a couple of LECs.
It's really a great operation. They do a great job.
And then I'm not sure if there are other birding
tours for example, I'm thinking sage grouse call and I'm
not sure if you know, But so you can start
(47:07):
with our website. You can go to the state agency websites,
and then you can do a search online for things
specifically like lesser prairie chickens and you'll find specific opportunities there.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
Yeah, I think American prairie here in Montana has some
pretty fantastic opportunities.
Speaker 2 (47:27):
That would be a great resource, good good catch, yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
Yeah for the greater sage grouse. And then sharpdals do
a great little dance too. They're pretty darn fun.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
Boy And for anybody listening, if you have not seen
a prairie grouse dance or boom and it's kind of different.
I mean, sharptiales really do this hilarious little foot stomp
and dance, whereas male sage grouse like are knocking you
over with a cannon. Yes, but both of them are
the displays of the males. And it is really to
see a bunch of males on a lec and to
(47:57):
watch those females casually sproll through like they're walking down
the middle of a bar checking out all the guys,
you know, deciding who they're gonna let's talk to them.
It's a it's a it's a it's a moving experience.
Speaker 1 (48:10):
It's it's awesome, absolutely, And then that'd be a great
step if you really want to understand, hopefully some of
the passion that you heard today around these super cool birds.
And then if you want to get involved and help out,
which I'll certainly be calling on you to do, whether
(48:32):
you like it or not. How do folks figure out
that step? Ted, where's their best points of contact?
Speaker 2 (48:39):
Yeah, so look up North American grass Lands Conservation Act,
figure out how to get involved supporting that, and then
Grouse Partners dot org. Please become a member of the
North American Grouse Partnership. We think that we're building the
model that is going to save the day for grasslands
by empowering ranchers to say what they need to get
(49:00):
paid fair market value. For Ecosys some services will continue
to raise beef for all Americans and saving an endangered species.
And once we get that model built in the Southwestern
Great Plains, we're going to export it elsewhere so that
Jesse Kolar in North Dakota no longer has to worry
about losing sharp tail grouse in North Dakota in thirty
to fifty years.
Speaker 1 (49:22):
Through North American Grouse Partnership. Pheasants Forever, quail forever. You know.
Speaker 2 (49:27):
Pheasants Forever, by the way, is another. They are the
leader in so many ways in upland bird conservation.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
So absolutely thank you Cal and TRCP b Ah. We
all will absolutely be pointing people towards the Grasslands North
American Grasslands Conservation Act. But if you feel like doing
some reading up on your own and lobbying on your own,
(49:56):
you're you're absolutely welcome to do so. It takes as
a phone callar and name now tell people that this
is something that you want to see make happen for
all your own reasons and maybe some of the reasons
that you're heard here today, and like Ted said, become
a member North American Grasslands or I'm sorry that partnership
(50:18):
North American grouse partnership. I think I still you guys
some money. I know, I do. I got to get
that's right, that's right. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
And in terms of taking action, I think ask your
congress person or Senator, Hey, I understand grasslands are the
most threatened ecosystem on the continent of the world. What
are you doing to help save them? Even just a
simple email like that. It's not actionable now, but what
(50:46):
that's going to do. It's going to set you up
so that when I'm back on your podcast here in
a few months and the landowners are making their big
push cow that your members can can listen to this
and reach out specifically and directly to support the request
for partnership coming from the landowners themselves.
Speaker 1 (51:03):
That's great advice. You know what, Ted, I'd want to
wrap this up because they want to keep it short.
But we're ignoring one very obvious question that we have
to hit here is can we put sage grouse back?
Are they gone from North Dakota for good?
Speaker 2 (51:18):
So sage grouse could make their way back to North
Dakota if the habitat was sufficient to support them and
it was connected to already occupied habitat but I'll tell
you cal restoring galinaceous birds through reintroduction it is. How
(51:40):
do I want to say it. I don't want to
say it's impossible. I don't want to say it's never
been done. It's extremely difficult. And the reason is all
these birds. You get a dozen to twenty birds on
a leck, and you need multiple lecks, and you need
multiple females attending all these lecks, and then they all
have to have sex, and the female will have to
go lay their eggs and raise their young. And if
(52:00):
you bring a bunch of birds into a new habitat
and dump them out on the ground, it's extremely hard
to create a meta population out of thin air like
that and expect them to be successful, to expect them
to know where to go to lack, know where to
go to nest, where to go to feed their young brood,
(52:21):
you know, in wet meadows along wetlands. So the best
that we can hope for is to save habitats that
are connected to already occupied habitats and have them play
bumper pool as they recolonize. But the fact is that
the habitat in orth to go to for sage grouse
is so degraded that it would take a lot of
(52:41):
work to turn that habitat around and grow a bunch
of new sagebrush habitat before you could then hope to
bring sage grouse back.
Speaker 1 (52:49):
Yeah, because how easy is it to grow a sage brush?
Speaker 2 (52:53):
Yeah, it's and I don't know if that hard, but
it takes decades, right, so the time is not convenient. Yeah,
that's the hard part. And then keeping that land set
aside for sage brush for decades so that you can
wait a couple of decades after that for the grouse
to get the memo and to show up. So it's
(53:15):
a it's a tough state of affairs. It's not like
putting a group of big horn sheep matt back in
the mountain range. It does not like that at all. Yeah,
not that that's easy, but but.
Speaker 1 (53:26):
There's imprinted learned behavior.
Speaker 2 (53:29):
Specific to that habitat.
Speaker 1 (53:31):
Yeah, yeah, specific to that habitat, and a lot of
birds are going to die trying to figure out where
to go.
Speaker 2 (53:39):
That's right, Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (53:42):
Yeah, it's it's tough. Habitat habitat, habitat gang that's right, ted,
So awesome to have you on if folks have questions
for Tad, Please let me know ask c a l
that's asked Cal at the meeteater dot com. We'll have
(54:02):
Ted back on to answer him, or I'll get your
pointed in the right direction, or we'll answer him right
here on this show. That's all I got for you
this week. Thank you so much for listening and Ted,
thanks again for coming on.
Speaker 2 (54:19):
Thank you Cal. Thank you for your passion for Grasslands too.
I don't know if people know that, Miquel, You've been a
real champion and you continue to be and I know
you'll you'll do more in the future. Thank you for everything.
Speaker 1 (54:29):
Well, yeah, buddy, As you know, I'm happy to be
out here doing my part. But all it is is
my part. Doesn't matter how big the platform or how
loud you yell, it's never going to be one person
getting the stuff done.
Speaker 2 (54:43):
So that's right.
Speaker 1 (54:45):
Thanks again everybody. I'll talk to you next week.
From Meat Eaters World News headquarters in Bozeman, Montana. This
is Col's Week in Review with Ryan cal Calaan.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Here's Cal.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Welcome to another episode of Cal's Week Interview, or Cal
the While, as we're calling all things these days. Good
friend of mine, Ted Cook with the North American Grouse Partnership.
Ted and I have known each other for a long time.
In fact, he's been on this podcast, but in a
very reserved capacity, and he generously gave the big spotlight
(00:46):
that he deserves to a bunch of ranchers that are
part of the Lesser Prairie Chicken land Owner Alliance. Ted
is a return hired and endangered species biologist. He is
the current CEO of North American Grouse Partnership. Correct yes, yes, yeah,
(01:12):
And we shot this out a little bit online the
other week. North Dakota has officially announced that the greater
sage grouse is The headline said extinct, but it would
(01:33):
be extirpated, would be the more.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
That's the better word. Yeah, extinct, it's like final everywhere.
This has just gone from this part of the range.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yeah, but it's they're the greater sage grouse is an
amazing bird. I love it. I grew up hunting that bird.
I hunt them every season and they're just like another
example of conservation. Isn't convenient because they need a specific
(02:02):
habitat to proliferate. Really they can hang on, but they
don't do well without old growth sagebrush.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Right yep, and the lack of tall structures. Just healthy
sage rush habitat, that's all. It's simple, healthy sagebrush habitat.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Yeah. So that's why Ted Cook is on and we're
going to talk about not only the greater sage grouse,
but we'll probably get into some other gallinaceous species. And
the only reason I know that word galinacious is from
teb So so if that's not reason for spotlight enough,
(02:43):
I don't know what it is. How we're sage grouse doing.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Well, you know? So I'll start with this framing cal
of the nine prairie grouse populations present in North America historically,
six of them are either extinct or recognized under the
Endangered Species Act, and the other three are declining. So
greater sage grouse are among the three are declining, along
(03:10):
with sharp tailed grouse and greater prairie chickens. The other
six you know, heath hens are extinct. That's the eastern
prairie grouse that's been extinct for a century at waters.
Prairie chickens Texas Coast are functionally extinct in the wild,
trying to reintroduce, and you've got greater you have two
populations of lesser prairie chickens, you have two smaller populations
of sage grouse, and they're all either listed or candidates
(03:31):
for are listing under the Endangered Species Act. And so
prairie grouse in general are in decline, have been declining.
And perhaps your listeners already know that grasslands in which
all these prairie grouse, including sage grouse depend on. Grasslands
are the most threatened ecosystem on the continent and then
the world. And it's the mission of the North American
Grouse Partnership to try to highlight this fact and use
(03:54):
these charismatic galinacious birds as you say, that's the you
of these chickens, turkeys, quailed, their gallinasous birds are the
ground oriented birds to use the prairie grouse. And so
that's greater prairie chickens, lesser prairie chickens, sharp tailed grouse,
sage grouse, those are the kind of the four species
groups of prairie grouse. The North Mary Grouse Partnership is
(04:16):
trying to feature these prairie grouse species, highlight their plight,
and issue our call for action to stop and reverse
the losses of grasslands the most threatened ecosystem, so greater
stage grouse among that, they're just on that downward trend
along with everything else.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Now, some of my listeners are going to know this already,
but we just talked about greater sage grouse needing the
sage brush. So why are you saying grasslands? Yes, great question.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
So the sagebrush ecosystem is more precisely referred to as
the sage brush step ecosystem. Step. Now, that's step spelled
step pe and step with the extra P in the
extra e means grass land, so it's sagebrush grass land.
And so then you know sharp tail grouse and other
(05:09):
prairie grouse a lot of places where sharptail grass exists,
they can actually coexist with some shrub component in there
with sage grouse. Uniquely, they are sage brush obligates. But
rare is it that you will find a sage brush,
particularly in areas with sage grouse that's taller than say
three or four feet high. If you get structures eight
(05:30):
feet tall or taller, that begins to become a turnoff
for prairie grouse. They do not do well around tall structures.
They've evolved to avoid tall structures because tall structures are
where raptors purge to hunt them. And so sage grouse
kind of fall onto that moniker of prairie grouse because
it's sage brush step sage rush grass land ecosystem, and
(05:51):
the sage brush isn't much taller than the grass around it.
But yeah, stage grouse are really unique in the prairie
grouse world in that there they can exist without that
low sage component in their grassland habitat.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
So I guess why have we seen the not extirpation,
but the extinction of these other grouse species.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Yeah, the other grouse populations as we call them. It's
you know, biology is actually a lot messier than you think.
You know, what's the species, what's the subspecies, what's the population?
And so a lot of times population is determined by
how we manage them. Other times it's determined more by
genetic or other biochemical differences. Other times it's determined by
(06:42):
differences in habitat. But at the nine populations, heathens became extinct,
and to a significant degree because of overhunting settlers settled
on the East coast Man they were a convenient chicken
to eat for dinner. And the last one was last seen.
The last male was seen strutting by itself for the
last two years of its life on Martha's Vineyard in Massachusetts,
(07:05):
the last bastion of heathens. And then you get Atwater's
Perry chickens along the Texas Gulf Coast. And that's all
the rest of the piagraphs cal It's habitat loss and fragmentation,
and so Atwater's Perry chickens and all the Leicester Prairie
chickens now the Southwestern Great Plains recently listed under the
Endangered Species Act, all habitat loss and fragmentation.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
And do you want to just explain fragmentation? You know,
I can explain some of this stuff, I promise, But
my golden rule is, once you get a biologist talking
about their thing, it's best to just let them roll.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
So fragmentation, you know a lot of us who love
to hunt fish know this when we think about you know,
mule deer or pronghorn migrations right just you know, a
subdivision in the wrong spot, or you know, a deer
proof fence in the wrong spot can massively disrupt fragment
habitat for those large mammals. Same exact thing for prairie grouse.
(08:07):
You put a power line corridors through a swath of
good looking prairie grouse habitat, and those prairie grouse see
that as an enormous obstacle to get past. You put
a highway underneath that, it's gotten even worse. And then
you till some of that range land and you convert
into a farm ground using some of the eggs subsidies
that pay you to do it, even if you never
(08:28):
get a crop off of it, and that's it. That
fragments habitat. That habitat is fragmented, you know, for a
long time to come.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
So fragmentation, right can be anything from a new housing
subdivision would be like a big example. But in the
case of these prairie birds where they are predisposed to avoid,
we're talking hundreds of thousands of years of predator evasion
(08:58):
have taught them to avoid tall st ructures. It can
be something as simple as people planning the wrong type
of trees or a power line corridor, you know, which
we can fix things like that a lot easier than
(09:20):
we can some of the other forms of development. Yeah,
and then on the habitat loss side of things, we're
typically seeing what agricultural changes moving from grazing to row crop.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Yeah, that's right. And so egg and energy development are
the two big ones across the range of the various
prairie grouse species. And yeah, the big one is And
I didn't even realize this until I started working with
the ranchers the last protecal lander alliance. But what happens
is US Department of Bag offers subsidies to landowners to
(10:00):
break out their grasslands, turn them into tilled farmland, and
they get paid the full value of that crop for
that year, even if they never pull off a crop.
And so if you're a rancher, you're faced with make
and say, you know whatever, one hundred bucks an acre
selling cows or one hundred and fifty bucks an acre
guaranteed payment from the federal government if you break out
(10:22):
your grand and ground and try to farm it, whether
you ever pull off a crop or not. I mean,
what would most of us do. Would you want to
get paid one hundred dollars an acre to do more
work or one hundred and fifty dollars an acre to well,
you know, we would pick the one hundred fifty dollars
an acre. Whether it's more or less work depends on
the circumstance.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Well, sure, yeah, I understand that part of it. But
how do you reconcile the fact that the Endangered Species
Act is also largely handled at the federal level. So
isn't the ESA talking to the Department of Agriculture.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Yeah, so that's a great question. So in the air
in the one place, I guess, now, to two places
where we have prairie grouse species listed to the Endandered
Species Act, don't those prohibitions prohibitions against take of endangered
species prevent those programs from being implemented. And the short
answer is yes, they would if the fact set caused
(11:27):
it to be so. But prairie growths are notoriously difficult
to find and monitor, and they move around to different
places at different times of the year, and so and
all of this is private land, private Rangeland and so
if a rancher says, you know, I want to break
out those hundred acres over here and get paid to
(11:48):
farm it, it's pretty difficult to develop a fact set
around there and have evidence and then have the federal
government have the temerity to try to prosecute that landowner
to prevent them from converting to farmland. That's the reality
is that's just not happening right now, that kind of prohibition.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Yeah, And why would it ever need to get to prosecution.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Well, because there's lots of contradictory policies in the federal
government that go on being implemented side by side forever.
And so for the Department of Interior to persuade the
Department of Agriculture to not offer those subsidies in certain
areas because of prairie gross seems untenable to me, because
(12:33):
then those ranchers in those areas that want to break
out their ranch land are going to say, what are
you talking about? Why can't I do this? I'm not
harming chickens when I do this. You can't prove that,
you know, pay me to be a farmer instead of
a rancher. So that's the conflicting policies. There's not a
natural fit to have one policy talked to.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
The other and have them work it out, which is
why it seems like something you could work out. Well, yeah,
what's the hurdle here? Yeah, so, and in fact you can.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
And this is the leadership that Lesser pratickal Land Alliance
wants to provide. So what they're saying because some of
our less Praticklenar Alliance members, one of them, in particularly,
he earns ten thousand acres. Five thousand of that is
in farming. Five thousand of that is in ranching. That's
permanently conserved for lesser prairie chickens. The reason that five
thousand is permanently conserved is because when his neighbors and
(13:29):
other business people approached him and said, hey, we can
break out another three thousand of your remaining five thousand
acres of grassland and turn that into farm ground. You
can double your money overnight. That rancher said, thanks, but
no thanks. I want to stay a rancher. I know
I could sell out, I know I could make more money,
but I really want to keep this as ranch land.
And part of the reason why is He is one
(13:51):
of the most passionate archery, deer and antelope punters you
will ever meet in your life. He gets it, he
gets it right, and he loves Leicester prairie chickens, and
he feels it's his responsibility to steward lesser prairie chickens,
and he patiently sought out opportunities to sell a conservation
easement on his land to a conservation buyer to permanently
(14:13):
protect the five thousand acres for chickens. But it shouldn't
have to be that hard. It shouldn't take an exceptional
rancher like that, who loves hunting and loves lesser prairie
chickens to spend fifteen years of his life trying to
save ranching and chickens on his land. We need to
make it easier than that. And so what the Lester
pur Checking Land our Alliance proposes is to do just that,
(14:34):
to just agricultural policy, to not only make it easier
to break down to become a farmer, to make it
easier to stay a rancher, to get paid to be
a rancher, and provide the whole wealth of ecosystem services
that come along with healthy range lands.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
And that is there's no balance, right. It's like you
can get paid one hundred and fifty dollars to fimat
or you can get paid less to keep it in grazing.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Yeah, and so you know ranching say it pays one
hundred buck and I'm throwing these numbers out, but say
ranching pays one hundred bucks an acre to sell your cows
one hundred and fifty bucks an acre guaranteed if you
break it out and try to harm, even if you're
not successful. Our proposal is to say, look look at
all the ecosystem services that come along with these healthy
range lands, clean water, clean air, more water, healthy soils,
(15:24):
healthy vegetation, healthy wildlife populations, carbon storage, and the massive
roots of these grassland ecosystems. These are all values that
Americans want to keep and they want to pay for.
In fact, we appropriate billions of dollars a year for
the express purpose of paying for these values. Yet it's
not going on the grounds sufficiently in the right places
(15:45):
to stop and reverse the loss of grasslands. And so
the list Perrie Chicken Lander Alliance is very specifically identified
forty two counties, and the methods by which the public
is invited to pay them for these ecosystem services to
make up the difference between one hundred dollars an acre
and one hundred and fifty dollars an acre. Then at
least a rancher could say, do I want to get
(16:06):
paid one hundred and fifty dollars an acre to break
out into farm ground? Or I do want to get
paid one hundred and fifty dollars an acre to grow
cows and provide ecosystem services together combined, which will get
me one hundred and fifty dollars an acre. That's the
magic that we're pursuing, giving the public the opportunity to
pay that extra fifty bucks an acre to keep it
(16:26):
in rangeland and keep lesser perry chickens and keep mule deer,
and keep pronghorn.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Keep pollinators, keep the tolerance, Yes, keep co assistance, all
that good stuff. Yeah, yeah, this is a little bit
of a tangent. But over here in the Shields Valley
just north of Livingston, Montana, new golf course going in,
(16:54):
or it's already in, and all sorts of lawsuits around
it because they're watering it. It'll so you got to
keep the sod and the greens watered, and it is
the basically the furthest western huntable population of greater sage
grouse in the state. And as far as I know,
(17:18):
they're not a golf course bird.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Yeah, it really ticks me off. Like I said, it's tangent.
We don't need to need to dwell on that. Maybe
I just need to go over there and cut those
flags on the green down a little shorter.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
But if it's another great example, here's where it's not
a tangent cow. Lesser prairie chickens became listed under the
Endangered Species Act on our watch. On Hunter's Watch eleven
years ago, you could hunt lesser prairie chickens. Today they're
listed under the Endangered Species Act. And you know we're
you know, talking about are going to be talking about,
(17:56):
you know, sage grouse in North Dakota. And I was
just talking to Jesse Cole, who North Dakota Game and
Fish supervises the program that did the counts that failed
to detect any mechs on the mails on the leck
of this spring. Jesse made the comment to me just
before I got on this program, cal that what really
he's seen this coming for a long time. He's not
that surprised. What really concerns him is that thirty to
(18:17):
fifty years from now, sharp tail grouse will be following
sage rouse in North Dakota if current trends continue. That
should scare the crap out of every one of your listeners.
And it's because of the things that you just talked
about there, you know, north of Livingstone, and US hunters
are letting these things happen day after day, year after
year because there's no one alarm. It's the boiling the
(18:39):
frog thing, right where if you know, put a frog
in a pot of water, turn on the heat, it'll die.
If you throw in a pot of hot water, it'll
immediately jump out. Well, the frog's been sitting in cool water,
and that water's getting pretty warm now when it comes
to grasslands and prairie grouse. And so that story that
you tell is yet another example of where we as hunters,
and we as Americans, not just US hunters, but where
(19:02):
some more, at some point we have to find the
opportunity to wake up and stand up and say no,
we need to save these places.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
And I know people don't like to think of it
in terms of a resource. Right, But if you do,
you have a really unbelievable public resource in these huntable species.
And in order to have huntable species, as we just
(19:31):
talked about, there's all these ecosystem benefits that come along
with making sure those huntable species are there, that's right.
And you balance that with the fact that there's a
couple of landowners that are going to make a ton
of money with a golf course for a very very
(19:54):
exclusive experience for a handful of people, in comparison to
the folks that could be out walking around and spending
gas money and food money in small towns pursuing gallinaceous birds.
(20:16):
So in which like I don't have an answer to
right other than talking about this stuff that I know
and feel so strongly is such an amazing thing, resource,
whatever you want to call it. Having those experiences in
(20:37):
my life have certainly benefited me, I feel. But when
we talk about North Dakota and this recent article that
came out in The Green Wire proclaiming that the sage
grouse is extinct from North Dakota part of its native range,
what happens specifically in North.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Dakota habitat loss and fragmentation.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
In the form of anything different.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Yeah, so the two biggest drivers I was talking with
Jesse Color again North Dakota, game and fish egg and
energy development, which is the same thing in the southwestern
right plains everywhere else, and specifically he talked about breaking
out farm ground using farm Bill's subsidies. He also talked
about ranchers developing or improving range lands by chaining or
(21:29):
burning sagebrush so there's more grass for the cows to eat.
And then energy development. They've got a lot of oil
and gas there in North Dakota, a lot of energy
transmission going on as well. I'm sure they've got renewables
I don't.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
Know, right, some more more vertical structures, but also a
lot more traffic out there servicing that's right, wells and
pumps and highways and fence lines, yeah, even fence lines.
You know, all those things are wear and tear on
grassland loving species. And it's not just sage grouse I mentioned.
(22:03):
You know, Western Kansas mule deer are really in sharp decline.
You know, we already have a listed population of pronghorn
in the US in Arizona listed under the Endangered Species Act.
How long is it going to be before we list
pronghorn somewhere and say in the southwestern Great Plains or
in the northern Great Plains, or wherever else some scientists
finds a genetically distinct population.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
They're all in decline. Right as grasslands go, so go pronghorn,
so go mule deer.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
California has got an endangered population of pronghorn as well.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
That I think you might be right. Yeah, and so
and you know here again Jesse cull ours words to
me in North Dakota this a while ago. You know,
sage grouse. He's disappointed about sharp tail grouse. Thirty to
fifty years from now. He's scared for Yeah, we should
all be scared. We should all, we should.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
And you know, sage grouse to me are an incredible,
very special bird. I think there's probably a greater population
of birders that are in love with the sage grouse
than hunters that that are in love with the sage grouse.
Because folks who grew up in sage grouse country were
(23:18):
told while in the womb that you couldn't eat a
sage grouse. But the truth be told, Yeah, greater sage
grouse ties are about the best eaten gallinaceous bird meat
there is. In my opinion, they're fantastic and huge. They're also,
(23:39):
you know, an incredible bird for getting somebody their first double.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
If you're shooting an over and under your side by
side because they just don't move.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Fast, that's right, you have time.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it is. It's one of those
things where were it a light clicks on in somebody's
head where they're like, oh my gosh, this is actually possible.
I can flush a bird, I can identify it, I
can get the safety off, I can shoot it, and
(24:14):
then I can look for the next bird and get
it too. And then that really does apply to all
the faster birds and more challenging birds. And you know,
I'm sure a lot of people are like, why the
hell are you talking about hunting birds that you're you've
already talked about is extirpated from states and endangered. And
(24:43):
you know the reason is is because somehow, some way
we need to aside. I'd like you to provide the
biological reason, but the social reason I'm providing is somehow,
some way we need people to be invested in this bird.
And the more invested they are, the more easily we
(25:05):
can activate them to stand up for these big charismatic
birds and then to jump over to the sharp tail grouse.
The reason I brought up how few people relatively hunting
appreciate the greater sage growse. Well, there's probably one hundred
(25:29):
times the amount of people who spend big money and
travel thousands of miles to hunt sharp tails with their
fancy pointing dogs.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Absolutely, and another terrific upland bird. It is a fantastic
upland bird. Yeah, they're not a lot faster than sage grouse.
I'll tell you that they're faster, but not a lot.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Yeah, it's just a smaller target. Yeah, and those people
need to stand up right now too, because by and
large it's the same habitat. Yeah, you can hunt the
brushy stuff as you mentioned for sharp tales, but they're
(26:14):
not going to stick around if all there is is
plowed fields and hedgerows. They need that, they need that grassland.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Step Yep, that's right.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
So what is it? What's the biological answer to hunting
these populations?
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Yeah, so hunting is not a threat to most species
managed for hunting today. You know, one of the most
famous examples is the trajectory of snow goose populations in
North America over the last twenty thirty years. I mean,
they've fluctuated wildly from low to extremely high, back down
to kind of low again, and hunting is zero percent
(26:58):
influence on those mass fluctuations. And the same thing as
said for prairie gause populations. Very different circumstance from waterfowl.
But the reason we continue to lose prairie grouse populations
is habitat loss and fragmentation that has nothing to do
with hunting. In fact, the more people we can get
to hunt and be interested in hunting, the more people
(27:19):
we have to advocate to keep those remaining habitats. Now,
now here's the thing that's really tricky for most prairie grouse.
Sage grouse are a little bit of an exception, but
I'll use lesher prairie chickens as the example. Over ninety
percent of remaining lesser prairie chicken habitat is on private
range lands. It's on private ground managed for grazing. And
(27:40):
here's the kicker. Ranching pays less than any other form
of land use. That's why grasslands are the most threatened
ecosystem on the continent. Of the world and why lush
preire chingins are all listed under the essay because somebody
can knock on their door and say farm land, solar, wind,
oil and gas transmission subdivision blah blah blah. Right, and
(28:03):
and so hunting just doesn't hold a candle to the
massive negative impacts of all those different competing forms of development.
And in fact, hunters are neat must be. Hunters must
be a part of the solution. And if we hunters
are not a part of the solution, we will not
(28:24):
save prairie goes. I feel that it's that clear, it's
that strong, it's that direct. If we don't stand up
for what we love, who will? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (28:37):
Oh yeah, I mean, and it's just anytime, you know,
I'll be driving back over to South Dakota this late fall,
early winter is what's on the books right now, and
I guarantee you I'll see folks installing drain.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Tile and that's right.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
And you know, things that we just cannot get back,
those intermittent wetlands that all of a sudden disappear.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Yeah, I mean that they need that water, they need
those wet edges, They need a whole bunch of little
wet edges, and that's exactly what farmers tile first. Yes,
that's right.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Yeah, So what does you know the rank and file
American have to say about something as big as the
farm bill, especially what you're talking about, which is trying
to get another program or or I know, you know,
(29:41):
we've talked about the North American Grasslands Conservation Act, something
that big into existence.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Yeah. So this is where Ted's weird thinking gets feed.
So we have lots of incredible conservation groups out there,
Peasants Forever, National Wildlife Federation who are leading the charge
on Farmville policies and policy changes that have been and
(30:12):
are really important. We've got National Wildlife Federation really providing
excellent leadership on North American Grassans Conservation Act. And by
the way, North Americ Gross Partnership supports all these things.
But the tact that we have taken, given the fact
that we've recently admitted lesser prairie chickens to the emergency
room of conservation by listing them under the Endangerous Species Act,
(30:32):
as we said, you know what, let's go ask the
people who actually own the land if they care, and
if they say they care, let's ask them what they
need and now we have the Lesser Prairie Chicken Landowner Alliance,
which is a bunch of very caring, visionary, passionate landowners
who love wildlife and who love lesser Prairie chickens. And
(30:55):
some of them even loved to hunt, as I said,
And so we asked them, and you know what, the
first thing they said. The LPCLA started a little over
three years agow first call, we said, They said, you
know what, Ted, Nobody's ever asked us before what we want.
And they said, here's what we don't want. We don't
want subsidies, we don't want cost share, we don't want incentives.
(31:17):
And that's all what the Farm Bill is all about.
And these are people that know, because not only are
some of our ranchers, some of them are also farmers
that participate in those subsidy programs. But it's not the
way they want to make a living. They don't want
a subsidy. They know they've got values on their land
that all Americans want and want to pay for, including
these valuable ecosystem services clean air, clean water, healthy soils, wildlife.
(31:43):
They would love to save an endangered species, they just
can't afford to pay for it. Out of their own pocket,
and they simply want to offer the American public the
opportunity to pay for that alongside of growing beef and
feeding Americans, which is the real reason they're on that
land in the first place. And so that's the difference
in this tact. It's not the North American Grouse Partnership
(32:04):
going to Congress or the administ Trump administration saying hey,
let's do this, let's do that. We're supporting these landowners
gathering their own voice and doing it. And here's the
real parallel to the hunters and anglers. You've got to
kick out of this, your listeners. Will ranchers became ranchers
because they'd rather be out on the land amongst animals
and not around people. How about us hunters and anglers, right,
(32:29):
I mean, we like to hunt and fish because we
like to go out in the woods by ourselves instead
of being around people. Same principle. Right. Well, to try
to get these landowners, these ranchers, to say, hey, put
on your best cowboy hat and pair of jeans and
let's fly to Washington, DC and talk to some people.
That is anathema to these individuals. And it is a long,
slow process. Now they want to do it. They want
(32:50):
to be empowered to do it. The North American Grouse
Partnership and this Retired and Endangered Species biologists you're talking
to you right now, cal is trying to figure out
how to do with it. And we're getting terrifics from
wonderful humans like Maryland Vettor with Pheasants Forever and and
folks with Nationalwideffederate Nation Conservancy. But we're right in the
middle of this journey right now, empowering these people who
actually own the land and participate in the programs to
(33:13):
say what they need to save grasslands in prairie grass
and and and it's to get paid fair market value
for the ecosystem services that they've been giving away for
generations on their lands.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
I all the meetings I had on on the hill
in d C a few months ago, I would just say, hey,
I got a real easy one for you. I'm like,
you ever heard of the Lesser Prairie Chicken Land Owner Alliance?
You ever heard of grazing land. I'm like, here's a
bunch of conservative folks by and large, Yeah, that really
(33:50):
needs some help. Give them, give them a reason to
stay in business, you know, And it's one of those
things that helping on the private side of the fans
is the biggest part of the solution puzzle that we
(34:11):
have with a lot of these species.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
And a lot of these states. That's right, that's right.
And you know recent Appropriations bill included increased funding for
VPA hip right, that's voluntary public access habotat improvement for
states to pay for more access to these private lands
for hunters. Yep. And let's pair that up with long
term permanent conservation that keeps ranchers ranching while continuing to
(34:36):
grow an endangered species and mule deer and quail and
everything else. I mean, this isn't that hard, and it's
not even that expensive, and we don't even need a
new pile of money to do it. We just need
to take the dollars we're already putting towards these programs
and spend them in a more strategic and focused area.
So the losers might be, say, people closer to Kansas
(34:57):
City who really don't have much left on their property
in terms of wildlfe, and the winners are these people
on remote ranches in the western part of Kansas, for example,
who can sustain these last best places in our grass
land ecosystems.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Yeah, and I know on the state level, you know,
Kansas was working on some language that would you know,
make sure that those public access to private land dollars
were spent in a more strategic way by making sure
there's good habitat yes on the properties before providing those
(35:33):
access dollars to a property there where occasionally an animal
might pass through.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
That's right, and.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
I think you know, probably a base level solution here
is people just need to pay attention and be involved.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Right, That's right, That's right. And in the bottom line
is again, you know, if if ninety percent of the
habit of the land is privately owned, let's ask these people,
do you care? And if so, how can we help
you help us? That's the strategy the North American House
Partnership is taking. And that's what it's you know, when
you say pay attention, call that's the thing that's I
(36:11):
don't know, it just hasn't been part of the conservation
communities thinking to stand behind the private landowner to conserve
I think when hunters and anglers think of private land,
they think of owning a parcel of the sake and
hunter fish on it. They don't think of supporting some
private landowner out there to provide the habitat to support
(36:33):
the species that they love. And it's and I get it.
I mean that's it's a bit of a new paradigm,
but it's also immediately logical, I think and foreseeable that
this is if we're going to save the most threatened
ecosystem on the continent and then the world, that's what
it's going to take. Either that or we buy it
all up. And I don't see that happening anytime soon.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
No, And you know, there's so many competing interests on
on you know, both private and public ground, but you know,
like the location of wind farms and solar and to
me speaking, you know clearly and frankly, some of this
(37:15):
is the result of people does not wanting to do
the hard work. Okay, it's all that land, the same
old thing of like, well all that public lands not
doing anything, Why don't we just stick it out there?
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Yeah? Yeah, no, and we unfortunately we do have public
land parcels in here. Those can become part of the equation.
But yeah, it's if we're going to save the most
threatened ecosystem of the continent, it requires a new paradigm.
It requires partnering with the people who own it and
who want to save it as well, finding those people
who want to save it alongside the rest of us
(37:52):
people who care, and then agreeing on how we can
become partners to do so. That's all.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
Yeah, And you're not talking about the big scary government
overreach scenario, right.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
This is all povoluntary participation. That's right. We're not gonna
nobody's going to make any landowner do anything they don't
want to do. But that's why it's really important to
find those landowners who really care and who want the
same outcomes as we conservationists want. I mean, that's really
where the magic begins, finding those landowners that care just
like us.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
And folks who are listening. You got to be reminded, right,
there's you know, in my mind, somewhere around we'll call
it upper five hundred million acres of huntable federally managed
public land in the US we always say six hundred
and forty million, but be a little more objective at
stuff that you can actually hunt. It's lower and land
(38:50):
set aside, specifically specifically for agriculture in the United States
are just under two billion acres.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
So I didn't know that.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
If and don't ever let this be separated into an
either or yeah type of conversation.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
We got to get past that.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
We got to grow up and be adults and understand
that if we really want it, nothing's got to be
in either or. But one side of the fence is
going to facilitate the other side of the fence, and
vice versa. But we got to fight to make it happen.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
So cal, that's a great number. I'm going to highlight
that five hundred million public huntable public land acres, two
billion acres dedicated.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
To ag Yeah, I would over yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
Okay, And so why wouldn't we then turn to these
lands that already harbor so many of the species that
we love to hunt for and fish for, and work
with the people who own the land to figure out
how to conserve it long term and provide access.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
All right, sorry, Ted, let me let me let's I
just found my notes here again. Okay, this is where
I was going with this. Three hundred and forty million
people in the United States. Let's say there's five hundred
and ninety million huntable acres under federal management, right, so
(40:25):
that is by to fall open to three hundred and
forty million people in the United States, right, so you
know it's that's roughly person every let's say like one
acre and change. Yeah, and then there agriculture specifically privately
(40:55):
held one point one nine billion acres, okay, right, so
basically elbow yeah. But the public estate is.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
So yeah. So if we've got double uh, you know,
the amount of private land and it harbors all these
species that we love to pursue and that we value
in other ways, then you know, why wouldn't we find
new and important ways to partner with those who actually
own the lands and the habitats about how to sustain that?
Speaker 1 (41:27):
Yep, yep, because there's threats to all of the above.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Obvious, that's right, and it's I tell you, it's a
funny thing we have. We were a couple of ranchers
in North Texas are on the Less Bridging Atlanta Alliance.
If you met them off the street, you'd think they're
the crustiest, most anti government, you know, hardcore North Texas
ranchers you could ever see you walk off the pages
of a of a book. They are a couple of
(41:59):
the most hard core environmentalists when it comes to trying
to keep wind energy from taking the last lesser prairie
chickens in their county. They are desperate for help to
save lesser prairie chickens. And it's not just about the chickens.
It's about their ranching and about all the other wildlife.
And it's about the chickens too. Their hearts are as
(42:21):
green as some of the greenest environmentals you ever met.
It's beautiful. It makes you want to cry. And if
we can't find ways to identify these awesome humans that
have the special privilege of owning these lands and support them,
we're not doing right by our children's children. We're not
doing all we can do to make sure our children's
(42:42):
children have access to these resources. We've got to forge
these new pathways in these new partnerships.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
And it's a low hanging fruit, right, like these people
are voluntarily wanting to do it. Yes, if we can't
help them, we're basically giving up exactly.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
Our interests are so aligned it's hilarious. Yeah, So when
wouldn't we know that at first?
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Where are we on the North American Grasslands Conservation I Act?
Speaker 2 (43:12):
Oh, a little bit stalled out, you know, Congress has
headed a recess here in a couple of weeks, but
we've made a lot of good progress. I think we've
gotten a couple of co sponsors on either side of
the aisle in Cali. Let's see, I'm trying to think
of the last call I participated in on that. So
I would say, in the bigger picture sense, we continue
(43:32):
to make steady progress, and we're getting closer and closer
to the kind of support you'd eventually want to see
for a bill like this. And this is going to
be one of those kinds of bills that's obviously going
to be many years in the making, as it's already
been a couple of years. But the champions of it,
you know, National Wildlife Federation, Peasants Forever and others can
continue to take steps every day, and then partner groups
(43:55):
like the North American Grouse Partnership, we occasionally weigh in
where we can to try to continue to build support
for that. So still a ways away, but we're closer
than we've been before.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
And the nuts and bolts of that one is a
huge part of what we're talking about right It's finding
that way to facilitate the stewardship of these grasslands through
kind of a sister model to the North American Wetlands
Conservation Act, which is basically the only thing out there
(44:33):
aside from a few state programs that are helping people
make the right decision when it comes to draining that
intermittent wetland or keeping it producing as is.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
That's right. And they do it by buying conservation, you know,
by paying money. Again, these are private lands. These people
trying to figure out how much how they can how
they can best make money off these lands. One of
the ways they can make money is by selling conservation.
A lot of people want to do that, a lot
of people really care. And you said it, right, cal,
I mean, this is North America Grasslands Act model out
(45:09):
to North American Wetlands Conservation Act. And then some people ask, well,
you got all these farm bill programs under USDA, and
then you got the Wetlands Act and soon to be
Grasslands Act under the Apartment of the Interior. Why two
different departments? Why why can't they all just be one?
And here's the answer. Under farm bill programs on the
US Department of Agriculture, those programs are designed to help
(45:31):
producers while helping conservation, but under the Department of the
Interior with the North American Wetlands Act and the Grasslands Act,
those programs are designed to help conservation while helping the producer,
right different priority. One starts with the producer tries to
affect conservation, the other one starts with conservation reaches out
to the producer, and that co mingling of priorities across
(45:53):
the landscape has really done well for conserving wetlands on
the northern plains, and we'd like to see that for
grasslands everywhere.
Speaker 1 (46:04):
And Ted, do you have any resources you could point
people to for seeing some of these birds, like when
it's dancing season, when they're out on the les and
folks just want to see how charismatic these critters are.
(46:24):
Do you have any resources you could point them to there?
Speaker 2 (46:26):
Yeah, so on the Grounds Partners dot org website, we
have some resources the individual state wildlife management agencies. I
think we'll have resources as well. For lesser prairie chickens.
There's actually a guy does a commercial operation and I
can't say the name of his operation right now, but
I think if you looked up lesser prairie chicken viewing,
(46:47):
you'd pretty quickly find an opportunity to do that, and
it's on one of our lesser period tickle Land Alliance's
ranches where he's got blinds built on a couple of LECs.
It's really a great operation. They do a great job.
And then I'm not sure if there are other birding
tours for example, I'm thinking sage grouse call and I'm
not sure if you know, But so you can start
(47:07):
with our website. You can go to the state agency websites,
and then you can do a search online for things
specifically like lesser prairie chickens and you'll find specific opportunities there.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
Yeah, I think American prairie here in Montana has some
pretty fantastic opportunities.
Speaker 2 (47:27):
That would be a great resource, good good catch, yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
Yeah for the greater sage grouse. And then sharpdals do
a great little dance too. They're pretty darn fun.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
Boy And for anybody listening, if you have not seen
a prairie grouse dance or boom and it's kind of different.
I mean, sharptiales really do this hilarious little foot stomp
and dance, whereas male sage grouse like are knocking you
over with a cannon. Yes, but both of them are
the displays of the males. And it is really to
see a bunch of males on a lec and to
(47:57):
watch those females casually sproll through like they're walking down
the middle of a bar checking out all the guys,
you know, deciding who they're gonna let's talk to them.
It's a it's a it's a it's a moving experience.
Speaker 1 (48:10):
It's it's awesome, absolutely, And then that'd be a great
step if you really want to understand, hopefully some of
the passion that you heard today around these super cool birds.
And then if you want to get involved and help out,
which I'll certainly be calling on you to do, whether
(48:32):
you like it or not. How do folks figure out
that step? Ted, where's their best points of contact?
Speaker 2 (48:39):
Yeah, so look up North American grass Lands Conservation Act,
figure out how to get involved supporting that, and then
Grouse Partners dot org. Please become a member of the
North American Grouse Partnership. We think that we're building the
model that is going to save the day for grasslands
by empowering ranchers to say what they need to get
(49:00):
paid fair market value. For Ecosys some services will continue
to raise beef for all Americans and saving an endangered species.
And once we get that model built in the Southwestern
Great Plains, we're going to export it elsewhere so that
Jesse Kolar in North Dakota no longer has to worry
about losing sharp tail grouse in North Dakota in thirty
to fifty years.
Speaker 1 (49:22):
Through North American Grouse Partnership. Pheasants Forever, quail forever. You know.
Speaker 2 (49:27):
Pheasants Forever, by the way, is another. They are the
leader in so many ways in upland bird conservation.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
So absolutely thank you Cal and TRCP b Ah. We
all will absolutely be pointing people towards the Grasslands North
American Grasslands Conservation Act. But if you feel like doing
some reading up on your own and lobbying on your own,
(49:56):
you're you're absolutely welcome to do so. It takes as
a phone callar and name now tell people that this
is something that you want to see make happen for
all your own reasons and maybe some of the reasons
that you're heard here today, and like Ted said, become
a member North American Grasslands or I'm sorry that partnership
(50:18):
North American grouse partnership. I think I still you guys
some money. I know, I do. I got to get
that's right, that's right. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
And in terms of taking action, I think ask your
congress person or Senator, Hey, I understand grasslands are the
most threatened ecosystem on the continent of the world. What
are you doing to help save them? Even just a
simple email like that. It's not actionable now, but what
(50:46):
that's going to do. It's going to set you up
so that when I'm back on your podcast here in
a few months and the landowners are making their big
push cow that your members can can listen to this
and reach out specifically and directly to support the request
for partnership coming from the landowners themselves.
Speaker 1 (51:03):
That's great advice. You know what, Ted, I'd want to
wrap this up because they want to keep it short.
But we're ignoring one very obvious question that we have
to hit here is can we put sage grouse back?
Are they gone from North Dakota for good?
Speaker 2 (51:18):
So sage grouse could make their way back to North
Dakota if the habitat was sufficient to support them and
it was connected to already occupied habitat but I'll tell
you cal restoring galinaceous birds through reintroduction it is. How
(51:40):
do I want to say it. I don't want to
say it's impossible. I don't want to say it's never
been done. It's extremely difficult. And the reason is all
these birds. You get a dozen to twenty birds on
a leck, and you need multiple lecks, and you need
multiple females attending all these lecks, and then they all
have to have sex, and the female will have to
go lay their eggs and raise their young. And if
(52:00):
you bring a bunch of birds into a new habitat
and dump them out on the ground, it's extremely hard
to create a meta population out of thin air like
that and expect them to be successful, to expect them
to know where to go to lack, know where to
go to nest, where to go to feed their young brood,
(52:21):
you know, in wet meadows along wetlands. So the best
that we can hope for is to save habitats that
are connected to already occupied habitats and have them play
bumper pool as they recolonize. But the fact is that
the habitat in orth to go to for sage grouse
is so degraded that it would take a lot of
(52:41):
work to turn that habitat around and grow a bunch
of new sagebrush habitat before you could then hope to
bring sage grouse back.
Speaker 1 (52:49):
Yeah, because how easy is it to grow a sage brush?
Speaker 2 (52:53):
Yeah, it's and I don't know if that hard, but
it takes decades, right, so the time is not convenient. Yeah,
that's the hard part. And then keeping that land set
aside for sage brush for decades so that you can
wait a couple of decades after that for the grouse
to get the memo and to show up. So it's
(53:15):
a it's a tough state of affairs. It's not like
putting a group of big horn sheep matt back in
the mountain range. It does not like that at all. Yeah,
not that that's easy, but but.
Speaker 1 (53:26):
There's imprinted learned behavior.
Speaker 2 (53:29):
Specific to that habitat.
Speaker 1 (53:31):
Yeah, yeah, specific to that habitat, and a lot of
birds are going to die trying to figure out where
to go.
Speaker 2 (53:39):
That's right, Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (53:42):
Yeah, it's it's tough. Habitat habitat, habitat gang that's right, ted,
So awesome to have you on if folks have questions
for Tad, Please let me know ask c a l
that's asked Cal at the meeteater dot com. We'll have
(54:02):
Ted back on to answer him, or I'll get your
pointed in the right direction, or we'll answer him right
here on this show. That's all I got for you
this week. Thank you so much for listening and Ted,
thanks again for coming on.
Speaker 2 (54:19):
Thank you Cal. Thank you for your passion for Grasslands too.
I don't know if people know that, Miquel, You've been a
real champion and you continue to be and I know
you'll you'll do more in the future. Thank you for everything.
Speaker 1 (54:29):
Well, yeah, buddy, As you know, I'm happy to be
out here doing my part. But all it is is
my part. Doesn't matter how big the platform or how
loud you yell, it's never going to be one person
getting the stuff done.
Speaker 2 (54:43):
So that's right.
Speaker 1 (54:45):
Thanks again everybody. I'll talk to you next week.
Host
Cal Callaghan
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