July 3, 2025 • 42 mins
Though Camp Shane is falling apart, kids still love spending their summers there, largely because of the limited parental supervision and endless romantic opportunities. Some counselors do their best to stop the hookups. Others manipulate naive teens for their personal gain. Camp Shane is quickly losing its status as a refuge for overweight kids and becoming a place full of secrets that will haunt campers for decades to come. And one camper is ready to come forward.
If you or someone you know needs support, please visit RAINN’s National Sexual Assault Hotline at https://rainn.org/.
References:
- Helping Children and Adolescents Cope With Traumatic Events
- The Statewide Central Register of Child Abuse and Maltreatment
- Why many sexual assault survivors may not come forward for years
- The abuser’s playbook: the weaponization of mental health
- What We Don’t Talk about When We Talk about Fat
- Why Don’t We Hear Fat Women’s #MeToo Stories?
- Weight-Based Discrimination of Rape Victims
Camp Shane—one of America’s longest running weight loss camps for kids—promised extraordinary results. Campers who began the summer in heavy bodies were often unrecognizable when they left. In a society obsessed with being thin, it seemed like a miracle solution.
But there were some dark truths behind Camp Shane’s facade of happy, transformed children. Kids were being pushed to their physical and emotional limits as the family that owned Shane turned a blind eye. More than 50 years after its founding, host Kelsey Snelling is bringing the real story of Camp Shane to light.
In this eight-episode series, she unpacks and investigates stories of mistreatment and reexamines the culture of fatphobia that enabled a flawed system to continue for so long. Along the way, she reveals and weighs the heavy price of shame.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kelsey Snelling (00:00):
This episode contains mentions of sexual abuse against children. Listener discretion is advised. Please check the show notes for resources. Summer love–the subject of countless songs, movies, and poems. It’s an experience many young people spend all year dreaming about. For Shaners especially, summertime was a chance for an epic romance. In picturesque woods with no parents around and self-confidence growing by the day, young love–of course–blossomed. As counselors, we were actually told by head staff that the dating scene at Shane could get a lil crazy. When I first heard this, I thought it was kinda cute. Campers had the chance to experience relationships like so many of their thinner peers did at school. But what I didn’t fully realize was how high the stakes were. .. Some of these kids felt like their limited weeks at camp were their only chance to experience love. And that scarcity mindset encouraged some not-so-ideal encounters, leaving campers in a place of precarity and even danger. This is Camp Shame. I'm Kelsey Snelling. Today, we’re delving into some of the more serious allegations levied against Camp When Selma Ettenberg founded Camp Shane, she knew romance could play a huge role in its allure – it is why she wanted to make a co-ed camp in the first place!
Nelson (01:36):
You know, you'd have like your first boyfriend or girlfriend
at camp.
Arielle (01:40):
I had my very first kiss. But during a movie night.
I'd be walking.
Seth (01:44):
I'd be walking by and all of a sudden, I'd
hear Hi Seth from Thirty Girls.
Kelsey Snelling (01:50):
Remember Seth Kwitko, the shaner from the eighties who was
trying to impress a girl at a skating rink and
got fat shamed by a full ass, grown adult. Well,
at camp, Seth found himself surrounded by kids with a
history of similar experiences. Away from the haters and more importantly,
away from the watchful eye of parents. He and his
(02:13):
fellow campers were excited to finally get their flirt on.
Seth (02:18):
You add a lot of kids that were filled with
hormones and probably didn't have a chance outside of camp,
and you let them loose amongst kids who they're filled
with hormones and they're going to go at it. And
there was a lot of that going on.
Kelsey Snelling (02:37):
Campers often looked forward to hook up opportunities like free play,
a daily camp wide hour of unstructured, co ed mingling.
Arielle (02:46):
And that's where all the action happened. That's where people
met people. That's where we were allowed to hang out.
Kelsey Snelling (02:52):
That’s Arielle Berger, a camper from the 1990s. Free Play was the only period of the day that campers got to use their time however they pleased.
Arielle (03:01):
This is where I first got the bianca and gum,
and you would trade it and you know, you'd try
and find an area and make out.
Kelsey Snelling (03:11):
Prime makeout spots might be a bush, behind a building
or on an empty bench, like the ones on Lover's Lane.
The campgrounds were vast, and you already know Shaner's were crafty.
The staff did set up a few rules. Occasional handholding,
hugs and pecks on the cheek were permitted. Anything beyond
(03:33):
that was not. But to enforce those rules, counselors had
to first find the misbehaving campers, and to do this
they went on patrol.
Merryl (03:44):
So we had this nookie patrol.
Kelsey Snelling (03:47):
That's Merryl Winter, a staff member from two thousand and
three to twenty fourteen.
Merryl (03:52):
First, the counselors they loved being on this patrol. I
mean they just loved it. They would get creative. They'd
bring flashlights and all alarms and you know, and as
soon as they would catch kids, they'd say hand check,
you know, like find your hands and you know. And
a few of them caught kids in very hairy situations,
and I wanted to make sure the kids were safe.
Kelsey Snelling (04:12):
And then there were the movie nights. Movie nights, which
were held on the hills of Shane beneath the Catskills
Stars were the perfect place for romance. Now, while some
kids watched the Mighty Ducks or Heavyweights for the hundredth time,
others made their move. First Kisses, hand holding, innocent cuddling
(04:36):
all happened on these hills, but often it went further.
Here's Stacy Toth. She was a camper for two summers
in the nineties and.
Stacy (04:48):
I remember specifically there were movie nights where it was
like on a hill and it would happen at like twilight,
which meant that as the movie was going, it would
get dark and kids would have sexual experiences on that
hill that were not monitored and not restricted the way
(05:11):
that they were supposed to be for camp rules or whatever,
right like let's not have sex acts in public, but
everybody was and if you were with someone, then it
was expected that you do things when you have a
movie night.
Kelsey Snelling (05:32):
For every staff member who tried to protect campers – there was a counselor who ignored the hookups. According to our sources, there were instances where staff members flat out encouraged them. Seth remembers a time he got away with sneaking around with his girlfriend because his counselor was sneaking around, too.
Seth (05:52):
I actually remember going to my camp girlfriend's cabin in
the middle of the night, and I remember coming back
and as I was walking back into my cabin, there
was a female accounselor walking out the back door of
our cabin.
Kelsey Snelling (06:14):
Sneaking around is what Shaner's did best, be it for food,
general mischief, or a romantic encounter. As a counselor, I
did my best to keep an eye on my kids,
but I wasn't always prepared for their eagerness. And eagerness
is exactly what happens when you put a bunch of
kids together who have been told by the outside world
(06:36):
that they're undesirable.
Dr. Millner (06:38):
These teens had been taught that they weren't going to
be viewed as attractive if they're in larger bodies, or
that people are not going to want to date them,
and many of these teens probably did sadly experience that.
Kelsey Snelling (06:53):
This is doctor Rachel Millner, a licensed psychologist and fat activist.
Dr. Millner (06:58):
Many higher weight teens have had the experience of not being
invited to prom or not being asked out on a date,
or being told that they're not attractive, and so when
they were in an environment where that was removed from
the equation and they were seen as attractive and people
wanted took interest in them, I think that probably led
(07:21):
to a lot of the consensual interactions between the teens
that can.
Kelsey Snelling (07:29):
The mindset Dr. Millner talks about also led some campers toward experiences they maybe weren’t ready for, which were sometimes not fully consensual. I spoke with many former campers who felt pressured to cross lines they weren’t ready to cross. In my interviewing, I heard stories of campers who entered relationships through coercion. Some were influenced by social hierarchy, some by low self-esteem and the desperation that accompanies it. Some experiences were even wrapped up in Camp Shane currency – where contraband foods were traded for sex acts. I didn’t see any of these exchanges when I was a counselor, but I was told multiple stories during my reporting, including one of a camper being offered chocolate if she allowed a boy to grope her breast. These coercive relationships didn’t just happen between campers. There were also camper-counselor relationships at Shane, which happened so often that they were given a nickname:
Merryl (08:36):
We used to call them CCRs camper counselor relationships.
Kelsey Snelling (08:40):
Former staffer Merrill Winter.
Merryl (08:41):
Again, those were hard to control too, because the campers
would especially be the older ones. We had a young
adult program, some of the counselors with the same age
as campers.
Kelsey Snelling (08:51):
These CCRs could refer to a relationship between two legally
consenting adults, a twenty year old counselor and an eighteen
year old hamper for example, or sometimes not like a
sixteen year old camper and an older counselor. Either way,
they were inappropriate and represented a big power imbalance. To reiterate,
(09:15):
CCRs were not allowed, and the headstaff did their best
to stop them, but they were often really difficult to police.
Merryl (09:24):
You know, you tell a nineteen year old they can't
date someone, they think is pretty or handsome or whatever,
but we did, and we'd have to let people go. Also,
we'd have to let people go if that happened, and
we would tell them constantly, please do not do this,
be responsible, but it would happen.
Kelsey Snelling (09:42):
Many campers told me stories about their relationships at Shane.
Some were lovely and uplifting and fully consensual. Others felt
a bit gray, and then there were stories that no
one should ever have to live through. Former camper Seth
(10:09):
quit Coo and I got to know each other a
lot during the making of this project. I first heard
about his story from another former camper and got in
touch with Seth in November of twenty twenty. I've interviewed
him formally on three separate occasions, I've met his whole family,
and we've spoken on the phone many times since then.
(10:31):
Seth is one of the sweetest and most charismatic people
I've met, and what happened to him at camp is devastating.
When Seth first arrived at Camp Shane in nineteen eighty three,
he was almost eleven years old. He was excited to
be there and to meet his bunkmates. That's also when
(10:51):
he met his counselor. Peter. Here's Seth.
Seth (10:55):
It was his first summer and my first summer, and
he was actually one of the counselors in my cabin.
Everyone liked him. He was generally a nice counselor, got
involved with the kids. He was overweight himself, so he
you know, he had that sort of connection to all
(11:15):
of us.
Kelsey Snelling (11:16):
Seth was happy to have a counselor who understood his
weight struggles and accepted him for who he was. And
since Peter was nineteen at the time, Seth felt he
was less like an adult and more of a cool
older brother.
Seth (11:30):
He made me forget about being away from home. He
made me enjoy the camp more. He made me feel
less homesick. He made me feel comfortable. He did what
I thought a counselor should do.
Kelsey Snelling (11:50):
Peter listened, He was friendly, and he even brought Seth snacks,
which technically is not exactly what a weight loss camp
counselor should do, but from a camper's perspective, best counselor ever.
Seth (12:04):
He would ply me with food, as we know, and
camp food is currency. Food is a bargaining chip, so
he would bring me. He would sneak in things and
he would give them to me.
Kelsey Snelling (12:19):
The following year, in nineteen eighty four, Peter became the
camp's drama director. This meant that he started spending his
days in the stadium, away from the day to day activities.
The stadium soon became a commonplace for him and Seth
to hang out.
Seth (12:36):
It was in the stadium where they held the place.
It was a covered area, big covered area. They would
have benches, and they had a stage at one end.
On ones on either side were offices, and the main
office was if you were looking at the stage to
the left, and they had a dad skin. They had
(13:01):
costumes and everything, and there was a way to crawl
underneath the stage from one side to the other, so
that you could you go off here and appear over there.
And I would spend time in there, and he would
sneak me a you know, some cookies or whatever it
may be.
Kelsey Snelling (13:22):
On top of sneaking Seth food, Peter used his power
as drama director to score Seth some additional perks.
Seth (13:30):
I always hated swimming, so any opportunity I could get
to get out of swimming was a good opportunity. So
when he let me get out of activities because I
had to rehearse or whatever. I was fine with it.
Kelsey Snelling (13:46):
Seth says that Peter also made him the star of
the shows, boosting his confidence and making him feel even
more important. One former counselor I interviewed said that Seth
was Peter's favorite. At first, the special treatment was great,
but then conversations with Peter started to get inappropriate.
Seth (14:11):
That counselor is gay? Did you know that? And then
things would sort of evolve from there. So he would start,
you know, chipping away at those at those barriers, and
the conversations would become more and more sexual, and then
eventually it was, well, I think you would like it, Seth.
(14:41):
I think you would be into it. From the first
time I met you, I knew that you would be
into this. I knew, you know. I think it was
him admitting that he was bisexual or you know, he
had had sex with men or something along those lines,
(15:01):
and then it was I knew you were. I knew
others were, but I knew from the moment I saw
you that you would be into it.
Kelsey Snelling (15:10):
Seth was shocked and uncomfortable, but by this point in
their friendship the two were really close. Seth says he
didn't realize it at the time, but Peter had isolated
him from the other campers and he didn't really have
another person he could talk to that he trusted. So
they continued to spend time together, and according to Seth,
(15:32):
Peter continued to push his boundaries. From there, things escalated quickly.
A warning to listeners, what Seth is about to say
may be hard to hear.
Seth (15:44):
And he just kept chipping away and chipping away and
chipping away. And I really wish I could remember how
it started. But eventually we we had mutual masturbation, and
it's sort of escalated from there. He would masturbate me,
(16:04):
and then he would want to kiss me, and then
he would do fillatio, and then it just kept going.
And it was it was more of the same of
him telling me that this is what I want and
(16:25):
this is he knew it, and don't tell anyone, and
it would just continue. And of course afterwards, after we
were finished, I would I would a wave of guilt
and emotion would come over me, and I would say
(16:46):
to myself, what am I doing? Because on one hand,
I was young, you know, I was I was a
hormonal team and it felt good and all this confusion
was in my head. You know, why should this feel good?
It shouldn't feel good, you know, And then you know,
guilt and anger and sadness and just a whole groundswell
(17:12):
of emotions would come over me as these things were happening.
And then and then, for some reason, fear, I don't know,
I would go back. I would go back, and he
would do the same thing.
Kelsey Snelling (17:29):
The stress and confusion weighed on Seth. He felt ashamed
of what was happening, but was afraid to talk to
anyone about it. He wanted to forget it, and when
summer ended, he went home as if everything was fine.
Seth (17:44):
I just was afraid to let my parents know something
was wrong. And it could have been very easy to
just say I don't want to go back, but it
was almost kind of like, you know, hey, no, nothing's wrong,
nothing's wrong. No, I want to go. I want to go.
(18:05):
I want to keep going every year. No, no problem,
no problem here. I mean, one of the big reasons
why I would go back was just to kind of
get a sense of feeling normal, you know, not not
sitting on the sidelines and being picked last, or even
if you're picked last, you still don't get to participate,
(18:28):
so you know, there there was a sense of some normalcy,
you know, feeling what normal kids might feel. And then after,
you know, a lot of this stuff happened. I think
it was just a way to keep myself busy, to
kind of escape.
Kelsey Snelling (18:45):
Determined to feel normal again, Seth put on a brave
face and returned to camp for another year. Unfortunately, so
did Peter. Seth was worried, but at first things didn't
seem so bad.
Seth (19:00):
Abuse is not linear. There were times where he and
I would just be pals.
Kelsey Snelling (19:07):
But then the abuse would begin again.
Seth (19:09):
And then there were times where you know he was
taking advantage of me, and then you know, I was angry.
I was angry at him, I was angry at myself,
and then you know, I didn't want to be there.
But then at the same time I was there, you know,
(19:34):
I was confused about sexuality.
Kelsey Snelling (19:39):
Seth felt trapped in this cycle, and says Peter continued
to push things further.
Seth (19:46):
I think the last straw was when I was in
the office on the side of the stage. I was
hungry because here we are in fat camp and I
was looking for some food. Maybe he had it tucked
(20:08):
away in a closet somewhere like he would do hide
food every now and then. He wasn't there at the time,
and there was a counselor in there, a female counselor,
and I went into the closet and I grabbed this
paper bag and I opened up the bag and inside
were condoms and vasilin and I asked her what is
(20:36):
this for, and she rather almost gleefully, said this is
for you. And I wasn't sure at the time what
that meant, so I put it back and I left
Kelsey Snelling (20:52):
Seth knew he had to end it. The next time he went back to the stadium, he confronted Peter.
Seth (21:02):
Then I came back one last time and he was
there and he was trying to kiss me. He was
trying to, you know, perform oral sex, and I just
sort of I had that wave of emotions coming over
(21:26):
me as he was doing things, and for whatever reason,
it just snapped in my head at that moment that
this is not right. And I said, no, that's it.
I'm out of here, and I pulled up my shorts
and I walked out. And after that it was, you know,
(21:47):
I started becoming a lot more withdrawn and I wouldn't
go near him. I had enough at that point, but
at the same time, I felt how I was damaged.
Kelsey Snelling (22:01):
And so at this point, you're eleven.
Seth (22:04):
I was. I think I was actually thirteen.
Kelsey Snelling (22:07):
My heart shatters for Seth knowing that he felt damaged
in that moment. Fear, shame, and guilt are all common
feelings among survivors of abuse, and the shame was made
worse when Seth started to think that word of his
relationship had gotten out.
Seth (22:26):
And I remember I was hanging out in a like
one of the it was like B ten or something B nine,
and we were just hanging out and some one of
these counselors was like, Seth, I heard you were gay,
like just out of the blue.
Kelsey Snelling (22:46):
Seth was terrified of people finding out what Peter had
done to him. He just wanted things to go back
to normal, and wasn't that the whole point of going
to Camp Shane to feel like a regular kid, So
he didn't report it. In the few years that followed,
(23:10):
Seth's history with Peter haunted him.
Seth (23:13):
I didn't know what to think of myself, and I
was afraid to let on anything. But you know, I
was also kind of self destructive. I was I was
going out and partying when I was in high school
and drinking a lot and doing drugs and doing horrible
(23:35):
in school, and you know, sort of that self medication anything,
I guess to get your mind away from what was
what had happened.
Kelsey Snelling (23:49):
It wasn't until a few summers later Seth began to
process that what happened to him was not his fault.
Seth (23:57):
It didn't mean I was gay, It didn't mean I
was straight. It didn't me and I was by It
meant that I succumbed to an abuser who took advantage
of my dislike of swimming, took advantage of my low
self esteem, took advantage of the situation where we were,
(24:20):
and just used it all those feelings against me to
gaslight me, to groom me, to get me where he wanted.
Kelsey Snelling (24:37):
Seth was finally able to call it abuse, but still
could not forget it. In the late eighties, he returned
to Camp Shane yet again and was relieved when he
heard Peter would not be back. Seth had a camp
girlfriend that summer, and for the very first time he
(24:57):
told someone his story. Then, one day, while Seth was
in the nutrition room, his girlfriend saw Peter walk into
the stadium. Here's Seth's recollection of what happened.
Seth (25:11):
I remember the girl I was with. She burst into
the nutrition room and she says he's here, and I
ran out with her, and I saw that he was
there in the stadium. And then I remember the owner
(25:33):
or maybe it was David, and a couple of the
head counselors, and we were telling them what was going
on and that he had done this.
Kelsey Snelling (25:43):
Another counselor told us she spoke to Peter after this
incident and that he had told her that David sent
him home quietly and did not notify the police. This
despite a New York state law mandating that all child
abuse must be reported. Seth was not the only person
Peter was accused of abusing. In twenty twenty one, another
(26:07):
former camper filed a lawsuit against camp Shane, alleging that
Peter sexually abused him during an excursion to a swimming
hole in nineteen eighty four. The camper claimed that Camp
Shane was negligent in hiring Peter and giving him access
to children. Camp Shane denied these claims. The case was
later discontinued after an apparent settlement Sadly, this was not
(26:32):
the beginning or the end of sexual abuse at Camp Shane,
and it would not be the last time allegations were mishandled.
While talking to former shaners, I learned that allegations of
(26:53):
abuse were not isolated to only the Ferndale campus. These
abuses also happened in the satellite locations. In twenty seventeen,
a fifteen year old autistic boy was sent to Camp
Shane's Georgia campus. According to a twenty twenty lawsuit against
Camp Shane, the family was told by the camp's director
(27:14):
that their child would have supervision in his living area.
They alleged that the camp did not have enough counselors
to uphold that promise, and that the Georgia camp director
notified David Ettenburg that the campus was understaffed. According to
the lawsuit, no action was taken to fix the staffing problem,
and the child was left unsupervised in a dorm with
(27:37):
a camper with known aggressive behavior. The family further alleged
that their son was raped by his roommate multiple times.
According to the suit, the boy was only able to
verbalize what had happened to him months later when asked
if he wanted to return to Shane for another summer.
The family sued Camp Shane for damages. The camp was
(28:00):
settled out of court. According to the family's complaint, the
offending camper pled guilty to one felony count of second
degree cruelty to children before the settlement. A question abuse
survivor is often here is why didn't you come forward? Commonly,
there is fear of retaliation. There's also the stigma and
(28:23):
shame associated with abuse. It can be very difficult for
victims to tell someone about their abuse, and even harder
when they don't think they will be believed. And for
Shaner's there's an added layer here.
Dr. Millner (28:39):
If you look at the way that fatness is represented in our culture as early as, Disney movies, the fat person is usually the villain or the fat person is lonely. And the representation around fatness that kids see starts so young.
Kelsey Snelling (29:03):
That's doctor Rachel Millner again.
Dr. Millner (29:06):
Fat kids are taught that they're not desirable, not and
I'm not talking about for any kind of dating relationship.
I'm talking about friendships right, or to be included in
activities like they're told they're going to be isolated or
be left out, and so of course then that impacts
(29:27):
self confidence and self esteem, and then kids can feel
like if somebody does show them attention or interest, they're
supposed to just be grateful for it, and because they've
already feel like they don't deserve it.
Kelsey Snelling (29:43):
This is why the sexual culture at Shane was so
different from other summer camps. That feeling that bigger bodied
people need to be grateful for attention makes them more
susceptible to this type of abuse. On top of that,
there is a real worry that others may not believe
them when they report sexual misconduct or assault.
Dr. Millner (30:07):
I've also worked with a lot of adults who were
higher weight kids and adolescents who did experience sexual trauma,
and they talk about the fear that if they did
speak up, they wouldn't be believed, and I can you know,
it breaks my heart when they talk about that. And
(30:28):
if you look at so many stories through the Me
Too movement, and anytime somebody who is in a higher
weight body talks about being sexually abused, there is something
in the media about, well, why would somebody want to
abuse them? Or that can't be true, and it's horrifying
(30:52):
that that's what happens, but it is what happens.
Kelsey Snelling (30:59):
Abusers may even weaponize these concepts to further manipulate their victims. Here’s former camper Stacy Toth again
Stacy (31:08):
When you feel valued, you're able to then stand up
for yourself when abuse is coming your way, when manipulation
is coming your way. When these things are happening, you
feel like someone will listen to you, because for me,
what happened is my self worth just thanks so much
that then when I left Camp Shane and my teenage
(31:29):
years in high school, I was raped and the person said,
go ahead, and who are you going to tell? Who's
going to believe you? No one would believe that I
was interested in you, and I believed that, and I
did nothing for years.
Kelsey Snelling (31:44):
Stacy carried feelings which were reinforced at Camp Shane, that
her body only had value when she was thin, and
this same idea was used against her when she was
sexually assaulted.
Stacy (31:57):
I wholeheartedly believe that that happened because of the roots
that took place at Camp Shane and the belief that
my value my self worth was so low.
Kelsey Snelling (32:12):
Tragically, fat women are significantly less likely to be believed
about sexual abuse than thin women. This has been reflected
in multiple studies. Stacy felt she should have been grateful
to be with anyone because of her larger body. It
took Stacy years to heal from her abuse. The healing
(32:32):
journey for Seth was also hard. In the years following camp,
Seth dove into a deep depression.
Seth (32:42):
I wanted to tell both my parents, but I was
I was scared, and I was scared to tell my
mother because I wasn't sure how she was going to react.
And of course there were so many times where I
wanted to just blurt it out, but I was I
didn't know what would come of it. Are they gonna
(33:02):
say I don't believe you. Are they gonna say why
didn't you tell me sooner? Are they gonna say, I'm
going to kill the guy? How could you go back
to that camp after this happened. I didn't know what
to expect. Depression was a big part of that lack
of trust, you know, self harm in the sense, not
(33:26):
that I was like cutting myself, but you know, I
just didn't care about my appearance. I didn't do well
in school. I tried to make friends with the people,
and I just didn't you know, I still kept to
myself regardless, you know, made friends, found excuses why I
(33:48):
couldn't hang out, or I had this apartment. I was
on my own. I was an absolute I mean the
apartment was a wreck because I just didn't care, you know,
and I did nothing to help myself or you know,
I would fail before I started to avoid the pain
(34:09):
of failure that kind of thing. Had a couple of
relationships here and there, but nothing really meaningful. So I
just sort of I did just enough, I guess to
live another day for a long time, you know. And
(34:29):
then then met my wife, and that's sort of when
things changed.
Kelsey Snelling (34:42):
Well into his adult years, Seth opened up to his
then girlfriend about what happened at camp.
Seth (34:50):
And then one day she's like, you know, I'll tell
you my deepest, darkest secret. So she told me the
whole deal. And then I was like, when I was twelve,
I was sexually abused, and she's like, wow, you know,
like she wasn't thinking that I was like my deepest,
darkest secret. You know, she understood this is me telling
(35:16):
her because I needed healing.
Kelsey Snelling (35:19):
Then in 2019, something caught Seth’s attention. His wife told him that New York State had just passed the Child Victims Act (or CVA). Prior to the act, any victim of childhood sexual abuse could sue for damages only until they were 23 years old. The CVA extended the statute of limitations to the age of 55. It also granted a one year window to file a civil action of damages with no age limit. With the passage of this law, Seth knew it was time to publicly tell his story and bring Camp Shane to account. In 2020, Seth filed a lawsuit against the camp for damages. And he knew that this undertaking would require him to finally tell his mother. Thirty-five years after that summer.
Seth (36:17):
You know, I said, Mom, I got something to tell you.
And then I remember we were standing out in front
of our house and we were walking around, and I
was like, listen, do you remember when I was at camp?
And then I proceeded to tell her everything that happened.
Carla (36:40):
I was seventy five when I found out.
Kelsey Snelling (36:42):
This is Carla Kwitko, Seth's mom
Carla (36:44):
And he said to me, I was molested. I said, what, what do you mean molested? Did somebody touch you? You know, and then he, you know, said, it was at Camp Shane. And it was like, what do you mean? I mean, it, it, it's like it hits you, but you, you're not ready for it. You don't, it's like, I can't even explain it.
Seth (37:18):
Her first reaction was, believe it or not, of guilt. I should have protected you. I should have known. And I said, mom, I didn't say anything to you. You, you wouldn't have known. And, you know, she, she kind of took it hard, and she was really, really upset about it. Um, you know, that she felt like she failed me as a parent. And I was like, no, you didn't, you know, you didn't know.
Kelsey Snelling (37:50):
Know, And that guilt quickly transformed into a profound sense
of loss.
Carla (37:58):
Then I remember one day, I have this bowl on
my table and it has pictures of you know, the
family and vacation whatever. And I saw this picture of
Seth at Camshane. He must have been around eleven, and
(38:20):
I just when I saw that, I just I started
to cry. It hit me what he did to my
little kid, beautiful little child, what he did to him.
Kelsey Snelling (38:40):
Four years later, Seth’s case was settled out of court. Now, he’s finally able to breathe a little lighter.
Seth (38:49):
Telling my wife was huge doing the lawsuit was huge.
Those were all These are all things that have really
helped me along my way of course, going for therapy
and speaking about you know, the effects, the long term
(39:10):
effects of what happened, and that the more I speak,
the more cathartic it becomes, the more I open up
to people because there's no shame, there's no embarrassment. My
hope is that I'm not just healing myself, but I'm
(39:33):
going to get others to start healing as well, that
they know that what happened to them, what happened to me,
was not their fault, and that there's nothing to be
ashamed of, and there's you know, there's only moving forward
and all these things are going to be behind me
(39:55):
and there's no reason to look back anymore. They'll never
go away. But you know, like I said, with the
kind of like those stages of grief, you just you know,
you accept it, you understand that it happened, and you just
keep moving forward.
Kelsey Snelling (40:17):
By the time Seth filed his suit in 2020, The Camp Shane campgrounds had already been sold off, David was drowning in lawsuits, and Shaners both mourned and celebrated what was surely the end of Camp Shane’s 50-year reign. But actually a brand new chapter was just beginning. All it took was a little change of scenery, and Camp Shane was back in the game–only this time, they were being watched.
Seth (40:49):
They were campers leaving or counselors were leaving, kids were
getting sick, kids were getting hurt. They shut the camp down.
Kelsey Snelling (40:57):
And what were you feeling when you saw this or
heard about this?
Seth (41:01):
This can't be used against me in a court of law. A little schadenfreude, you know? Good. Right. I'm glad. But at the same time, I was, I, I, I said to myself, man, I wish that was me. I would've felt good if, if I was the one who caused that to happen.
Kelsey Snelling (41:21):
Next time. On the final episode of Camp Shame.
Pamela (41:25):
It was something out of a horror movie. The way it felt when I pulled up, There was not an adult anywhere to be seen. Pamela
Kelsey Snelling (41:36):
We reached out to David Ettenberg, Ziporah Janowski, and Peter for comment. At the time of this recording, we have not received a reply.
Camp Shame is a production of iHeartPodcasts. I’m your host, Kelsey Snelling. Camp Shame is produced by Brittany Martinez, Taylor Williamson, Sara Schleede, Luci Jones and Alyia Yates Grau. Our Editor is Courtenay Hameister with additional Editorial support from Lindsey Kratochwill and Grace Lynch. Our executive producers are Jenny Kaplan, Emily Rudder and me, Kelsey Snelling. For iHeartMedia, our executive producer is Cristina Everett. Fact checking done by Madeline Goore, Luci Jones, Paloma Moreno Jimenez, Lauren Williams and Fiona Pestana. Our theme music is produced by Sean Petell. Listen and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us on Instagram @CampShame – that's with an M!-- If you or anyone you know went to Camp Shane reach out with your camp stories
This episode contains mentions of sexual abuse against children. Listener discretion is advised. Please check the show notes for resources. Summer love–the subject of countless songs, movies, and poems. It’s an experience many young people spend all year dreaming about. For Shaners especially, summertime was a chance for an epic romance. In picturesque woods with no parents around and self-confidence growing by the day, young love–of course–blossomed. As counselors, we were actually told by head staff that the dating scene at Shane could get a lil crazy. When I first heard this, I thought it was kinda cute. Campers had the chance to experience relationships like so many of their thinner peers did at school. But what I didn’t fully realize was how high the stakes were. .. Some of these kids felt like their limited weeks at camp were their only chance to experience love. And that scarcity mindset encouraged some not-so-ideal encounters, leaving campers in a place of precarity and even danger. This is Camp Shame. I'm Kelsey Snelling. Today, we’re delving into some of the more serious allegations levied against Camp When Selma Ettenberg founded Camp Shane, she knew romance could play a huge role in its allure – it is why she wanted to make a co-ed camp in the first place!
Nelson (01:36):
You know, you'd have like your first boyfriend or girlfriend
at camp.
Arielle (01:40):
I had my very first kiss. But during a movie night.
I'd be walking.
Seth (01:44):
I'd be walking by and all of a sudden, I'd
hear Hi Seth from Thirty Girls.
Kelsey Snelling (01:50):
Remember Seth Kwitko, the shaner from the eighties who was
trying to impress a girl at a skating rink and
got fat shamed by a full ass, grown adult. Well,
at camp, Seth found himself surrounded by kids with a
history of similar experiences. Away from the haters and more importantly,
away from the watchful eye of parents. He and his
(02:13):
fellow campers were excited to finally get their flirt on.
Seth (02:18):
You add a lot of kids that were filled with
hormones and probably didn't have a chance outside of camp,
and you let them loose amongst kids who they're filled
with hormones and they're going to go at it. And
there was a lot of that going on.
Kelsey Snelling (02:37):
Campers often looked forward to hook up opportunities like free play,
a daily camp wide hour of unstructured, co ed mingling.
Arielle (02:46):
And that's where all the action happened. That's where people
met people. That's where we were allowed to hang out.
Kelsey Snelling (02:52):
That’s Arielle Berger, a camper from the 1990s. Free Play was the only period of the day that campers got to use their time however they pleased.
Arielle (03:01):
This is where I first got the bianca and gum,
and you would trade it and you know, you'd try
and find an area and make out.
Kelsey Snelling (03:11):
Prime makeout spots might be a bush, behind a building
or on an empty bench, like the ones on Lover's Lane.
The campgrounds were vast, and you already know Shaner's were crafty.
The staff did set up a few rules. Occasional handholding,
hugs and pecks on the cheek were permitted. Anything beyond
(03:33):
that was not. But to enforce those rules, counselors had
to first find the misbehaving campers, and to do this
they went on patrol.
Merryl (03:44):
So we had this nookie patrol.
Kelsey Snelling (03:47):
That's Merryl Winter, a staff member from two thousand and
three to twenty fourteen.
Merryl (03:52):
First, the counselors they loved being on this patrol. I
mean they just loved it. They would get creative. They'd
bring flashlights and all alarms and you know, and as
soon as they would catch kids, they'd say hand check,
you know, like find your hands and you know. And
a few of them caught kids in very hairy situations,
and I wanted to make sure the kids were safe.
Kelsey Snelling (04:12):
And then there were the movie nights. Movie nights, which
were held on the hills of Shane beneath the Catskills
Stars were the perfect place for romance. Now, while some
kids watched the Mighty Ducks or Heavyweights for the hundredth time,
others made their move. First Kisses, hand holding, innocent cuddling
(04:36):
all happened on these hills, but often it went further.
Here's Stacy Toth. She was a camper for two summers
in the nineties and.
Stacy (04:48):
I remember specifically there were movie nights where it was
like on a hill and it would happen at like twilight,
which meant that as the movie was going, it would
get dark and kids would have sexual experiences on that
hill that were not monitored and not restricted the way
(05:11):
that they were supposed to be for camp rules or whatever,
right like let's not have sex acts in public, but
everybody was and if you were with someone, then it
was expected that you do things when you have a
movie night.
Kelsey Snelling (05:32):
For every staff member who tried to protect campers – there was a counselor who ignored the hookups. According to our sources, there were instances where staff members flat out encouraged them. Seth remembers a time he got away with sneaking around with his girlfriend because his counselor was sneaking around, too.
Seth (05:52):
I actually remember going to my camp girlfriend's cabin in
the middle of the night, and I remember coming back
and as I was walking back into my cabin, there
was a female accounselor walking out the back door of
our cabin.
Kelsey Snelling (06:14):
Sneaking around is what Shaner's did best, be it for food,
general mischief, or a romantic encounter. As a counselor, I
did my best to keep an eye on my kids,
but I wasn't always prepared for their eagerness. And eagerness
is exactly what happens when you put a bunch of
kids together who have been told by the outside world
(06:36):
that they're undesirable.
Dr. Millner (06:38):
These teens had been taught that they weren't going to
be viewed as attractive if they're in larger bodies, or
that people are not going to want to date them,
and many of these teens probably did sadly experience that.
Kelsey Snelling (06:53):
This is doctor Rachel Millner, a licensed psychologist and fat activist.
Dr. Millner (06:58):
Many higher weight teens have had the experience of not being
invited to prom or not being asked out on a date,
or being told that they're not attractive, and so when
they were in an environment where that was removed from
the equation and they were seen as attractive and people
wanted took interest in them, I think that probably led
(07:21):
to a lot of the consensual interactions between the teens
that can.
Kelsey Snelling (07:29):
The mindset Dr. Millner talks about also led some campers toward experiences they maybe weren’t ready for, which were sometimes not fully consensual. I spoke with many former campers who felt pressured to cross lines they weren’t ready to cross. In my interviewing, I heard stories of campers who entered relationships through coercion. Some were influenced by social hierarchy, some by low self-esteem and the desperation that accompanies it. Some experiences were even wrapped up in Camp Shane currency – where contraband foods were traded for sex acts. I didn’t see any of these exchanges when I was a counselor, but I was told multiple stories during my reporting, including one of a camper being offered chocolate if she allowed a boy to grope her breast. These coercive relationships didn’t just happen between campers. There were also camper-counselor relationships at Shane, which happened so often that they were given a nickname:
Merryl (08:36):
We used to call them CCRs camper counselor relationships.
Kelsey Snelling (08:40):
Former staffer Merrill Winter.
Merryl (08:41):
Again, those were hard to control too, because the campers
would especially be the older ones. We had a young
adult program, some of the counselors with the same age
as campers.
Kelsey Snelling (08:51):
These CCRs could refer to a relationship between two legally
consenting adults, a twenty year old counselor and an eighteen
year old hamper for example, or sometimes not like a
sixteen year old camper and an older counselor. Either way,
they were inappropriate and represented a big power imbalance. To reiterate,
(09:15):
CCRs were not allowed, and the headstaff did their best
to stop them, but they were often really difficult to police.
Merryl (09:24):
You know, you tell a nineteen year old they can't
date someone, they think is pretty or handsome or whatever,
but we did, and we'd have to let people go. Also,
we'd have to let people go if that happened, and
we would tell them constantly, please do not do this,
be responsible, but it would happen.
Kelsey Snelling (09:42):
Many campers told me stories about their relationships at Shane.
Some were lovely and uplifting and fully consensual. Others felt
a bit gray, and then there were stories that no
one should ever have to live through. Former camper Seth
(10:09):
quit Coo and I got to know each other a
lot during the making of this project. I first heard
about his story from another former camper and got in
touch with Seth in November of twenty twenty. I've interviewed
him formally on three separate occasions, I've met his whole family,
and we've spoken on the phone many times since then.
(10:31):
Seth is one of the sweetest and most charismatic people
I've met, and what happened to him at camp is devastating.
When Seth first arrived at Camp Shane in nineteen eighty three,
he was almost eleven years old. He was excited to
be there and to meet his bunkmates. That's also when
(10:51):
he met his counselor. Peter. Here's Seth.
Seth (10:55):
It was his first summer and my first summer, and
he was actually one of the counselors in my cabin.
Everyone liked him. He was generally a nice counselor, got
involved with the kids. He was overweight himself, so he
you know, he had that sort of connection to all
(11:15):
of us.
Kelsey Snelling (11:16):
Seth was happy to have a counselor who understood his
weight struggles and accepted him for who he was. And
since Peter was nineteen at the time, Seth felt he
was less like an adult and more of a cool
older brother.
Seth (11:30):
He made me forget about being away from home. He
made me enjoy the camp more. He made me feel
less homesick. He made me feel comfortable. He did what
I thought a counselor should do.
Kelsey Snelling (11:50):
Peter listened, He was friendly, and he even brought Seth snacks,
which technically is not exactly what a weight loss camp
counselor should do, but from a camper's perspective, best counselor ever.
Seth (12:04):
He would ply me with food, as we know, and
camp food is currency. Food is a bargaining chip, so
he would bring me. He would sneak in things and
he would give them to me.
Kelsey Snelling (12:19):
The following year, in nineteen eighty four, Peter became the
camp's drama director. This meant that he started spending his
days in the stadium, away from the day to day activities.
The stadium soon became a commonplace for him and Seth
to hang out.
Seth (12:36):
It was in the stadium where they held the place.
It was a covered area, big covered area. They would
have benches, and they had a stage at one end.
On ones on either side were offices, and the main
office was if you were looking at the stage to
the left, and they had a dad skin. They had
(13:01):
costumes and everything, and there was a way to crawl
underneath the stage from one side to the other, so
that you could you go off here and appear over there.
And I would spend time in there, and he would
sneak me a you know, some cookies or whatever it
may be.
Kelsey Snelling (13:22):
On top of sneaking Seth food, Peter used his power
as drama director to score Seth some additional perks.
Seth (13:30):
I always hated swimming, so any opportunity I could get
to get out of swimming was a good opportunity. So
when he let me get out of activities because I
had to rehearse or whatever. I was fine with it.
Kelsey Snelling (13:46):
Seth says that Peter also made him the star of
the shows, boosting his confidence and making him feel even
more important. One former counselor I interviewed said that Seth
was Peter's favorite. At first, the special treatment was great,
but then conversations with Peter started to get inappropriate.
Seth (14:11):
That counselor is gay? Did you know that? And then
things would sort of evolve from there. So he would start,
you know, chipping away at those at those barriers, and
the conversations would become more and more sexual, and then
eventually it was, well, I think you would like it, Seth.
(14:41):
I think you would be into it. From the first
time I met you, I knew that you would be
into this. I knew, you know. I think it was
him admitting that he was bisexual or you know, he
had had sex with men or something along those lines,
(15:01):
and then it was I knew you were. I knew
others were, but I knew from the moment I saw
you that you would be into it.
Kelsey Snelling (15:10):
Seth was shocked and uncomfortable, but by this point in
their friendship the two were really close. Seth says he
didn't realize it at the time, but Peter had isolated
him from the other campers and he didn't really have
another person he could talk to that he trusted. So
they continued to spend time together, and according to Seth,
(15:32):
Peter continued to push his boundaries. From there, things escalated quickly.
A warning to listeners, what Seth is about to say
may be hard to hear.
Seth (15:44):
And he just kept chipping away and chipping away and
chipping away. And I really wish I could remember how
it started. But eventually we we had mutual masturbation, and
it's sort of escalated from there. He would masturbate me,
(16:04):
and then he would want to kiss me, and then
he would do fillatio, and then it just kept going.
And it was it was more of the same of
him telling me that this is what I want and
(16:25):
this is he knew it, and don't tell anyone, and
it would just continue. And of course afterwards, after we
were finished, I would I would a wave of guilt
and emotion would come over me, and I would say
(16:46):
to myself, what am I doing? Because on one hand,
I was young, you know, I was I was a
hormonal team and it felt good and all this confusion
was in my head. You know, why should this feel good?
It shouldn't feel good, you know, And then you know,
guilt and anger and sadness and just a whole groundswell
(17:12):
of emotions would come over me as these things were happening.
And then and then, for some reason, fear, I don't know,
I would go back. I would go back, and he
would do the same thing.
Kelsey Snelling (17:29):
The stress and confusion weighed on Seth. He felt ashamed
of what was happening, but was afraid to talk to
anyone about it. He wanted to forget it, and when
summer ended, he went home as if everything was fine.
Seth (17:44):
I just was afraid to let my parents know something
was wrong. And it could have been very easy to
just say I don't want to go back, but it
was almost kind of like, you know, hey, no, nothing's wrong,
nothing's wrong. No, I want to go. I want to go.
(18:05):
I want to keep going every year. No, no problem,
no problem here. I mean, one of the big reasons
why I would go back was just to kind of
get a sense of feeling normal, you know, not not
sitting on the sidelines and being picked last, or even
if you're picked last, you still don't get to participate,
(18:28):
so you know, there there was a sense of some normalcy,
you know, feeling what normal kids might feel. And then after,
you know, a lot of this stuff happened. I think
it was just a way to keep myself busy, to
kind of escape.
Kelsey Snelling (18:45):
Determined to feel normal again, Seth put on a brave
face and returned to camp for another year. Unfortunately, so
did Peter. Seth was worried, but at first things didn't
seem so bad.
Seth (19:00):
Abuse is not linear. There were times where he and
I would just be pals.
Kelsey Snelling (19:07):
But then the abuse would begin again.
Seth (19:09):
And then there were times where you know he was
taking advantage of me, and then you know, I was angry.
I was angry at him, I was angry at myself,
and then you know, I didn't want to be there.
But then at the same time I was there, you know,
(19:34):
I was confused about sexuality.
Kelsey Snelling (19:39):
Seth felt trapped in this cycle, and says Peter continued
to push things further.
Seth (19:46):
I think the last straw was when I was in
the office on the side of the stage. I was
hungry because here we are in fat camp and I
was looking for some food. Maybe he had it tucked
(20:08):
away in a closet somewhere like he would do hide
food every now and then. He wasn't there at the time,
and there was a counselor in there, a female counselor,
and I went into the closet and I grabbed this
paper bag and I opened up the bag and inside
were condoms and vasilin and I asked her what is
(20:36):
this for, and she rather almost gleefully, said this is
for you. And I wasn't sure at the time what
that meant, so I put it back and I left
Kelsey Snelling (20:52):
Seth knew he had to end it. The next time he went back to the stadium, he confronted Peter.
Seth (21:02):
Then I came back one last time and he was
there and he was trying to kiss me. He was
trying to, you know, perform oral sex, and I just
sort of I had that wave of emotions coming over
(21:26):
me as he was doing things, and for whatever reason,
it just snapped in my head at that moment that
this is not right. And I said, no, that's it.
I'm out of here, and I pulled up my shorts
and I walked out. And after that it was, you know,
(21:47):
I started becoming a lot more withdrawn and I wouldn't
go near him. I had enough at that point, but
at the same time, I felt how I was damaged.
Kelsey Snelling (22:01):
And so at this point, you're eleven.
Seth (22:04):
I was. I think I was actually thirteen.
Kelsey Snelling (22:07):
My heart shatters for Seth knowing that he felt damaged
in that moment. Fear, shame, and guilt are all common
feelings among survivors of abuse, and the shame was made
worse when Seth started to think that word of his
relationship had gotten out.
Seth (22:26):
And I remember I was hanging out in a like
one of the it was like B ten or something B nine,
and we were just hanging out and some one of
these counselors was like, Seth, I heard you were gay,
like just out of the blue.
Kelsey Snelling (22:46):
Seth was terrified of people finding out what Peter had
done to him. He just wanted things to go back
to normal, and wasn't that the whole point of going
to Camp Shane to feel like a regular kid, So
he didn't report it. In the few years that followed,
(23:10):
Seth's history with Peter haunted him.
Seth (23:13):
I didn't know what to think of myself, and I
was afraid to let on anything. But you know, I
was also kind of self destructive. I was I was
going out and partying when I was in high school
and drinking a lot and doing drugs and doing horrible
(23:35):
in school, and you know, sort of that self medication anything,
I guess to get your mind away from what was
what had happened.
Kelsey Snelling (23:49):
It wasn't until a few summers later Seth began to
process that what happened to him was not his fault.
Seth (23:57):
It didn't mean I was gay, It didn't mean I
was straight. It didn't me and I was by It
meant that I succumbed to an abuser who took advantage
of my dislike of swimming, took advantage of my low
self esteem, took advantage of the situation where we were,
(24:20):
and just used it all those feelings against me to
gaslight me, to groom me, to get me where he wanted.
Kelsey Snelling (24:37):
Seth was finally able to call it abuse, but still
could not forget it. In the late eighties, he returned
to Camp Shane yet again and was relieved when he
heard Peter would not be back. Seth had a camp
girlfriend that summer, and for the very first time he
(24:57):
told someone his story. Then, one day, while Seth was
in the nutrition room, his girlfriend saw Peter walk into
the stadium. Here's Seth's recollection of what happened.
Seth (25:11):
I remember the girl I was with. She burst into
the nutrition room and she says he's here, and I
ran out with her, and I saw that he was
there in the stadium. And then I remember the owner
(25:33):
or maybe it was David, and a couple of the
head counselors, and we were telling them what was going
on and that he had done this.
Kelsey Snelling (25:43):
Another counselor told us she spoke to Peter after this
incident and that he had told her that David sent
him home quietly and did not notify the police. This
despite a New York state law mandating that all child
abuse must be reported. Seth was not the only person
Peter was accused of abusing. In twenty twenty one, another
(26:07):
former camper filed a lawsuit against camp Shane, alleging that
Peter sexually abused him during an excursion to a swimming
hole in nineteen eighty four. The camper claimed that Camp
Shane was negligent in hiring Peter and giving him access
to children. Camp Shane denied these claims. The case was
later discontinued after an apparent settlement Sadly, this was not
(26:32):
the beginning or the end of sexual abuse at Camp Shane,
and it would not be the last time allegations were mishandled.
While talking to former shaners, I learned that allegations of
(26:53):
abuse were not isolated to only the Ferndale campus. These
abuses also happened in the satellite locations. In twenty seventeen,
a fifteen year old autistic boy was sent to Camp
Shane's Georgia campus. According to a twenty twenty lawsuit against
Camp Shane, the family was told by the camp's director
(27:14):
that their child would have supervision in his living area.
They alleged that the camp did not have enough counselors
to uphold that promise, and that the Georgia camp director
notified David Ettenburg that the campus was understaffed. According to
the lawsuit, no action was taken to fix the staffing problem,
and the child was left unsupervised in a dorm with
(27:37):
a camper with known aggressive behavior. The family further alleged
that their son was raped by his roommate multiple times.
According to the suit, the boy was only able to
verbalize what had happened to him months later when asked
if he wanted to return to Shane for another summer.
The family sued Camp Shane for damages. The camp was
(28:00):
settled out of court. According to the family's complaint, the
offending camper pled guilty to one felony count of second
degree cruelty to children before the settlement. A question abuse
survivor is often here is why didn't you come forward? Commonly,
there is fear of retaliation. There's also the stigma and
(28:23):
shame associated with abuse. It can be very difficult for
victims to tell someone about their abuse, and even harder
when they don't think they will be believed. And for
Shaner's there's an added layer here.
Dr. Millner (28:39):
If you look at the way that fatness is represented in our culture as early as, Disney movies, the fat person is usually the villain or the fat person is lonely. And the representation around fatness that kids see starts so young.
Kelsey Snelling (29:03):
That's doctor Rachel Millner again.
Dr. Millner (29:06):
Fat kids are taught that they're not desirable, not and
I'm not talking about for any kind of dating relationship.
I'm talking about friendships right, or to be included in
activities like they're told they're going to be isolated or
be left out, and so of course then that impacts
(29:27):
self confidence and self esteem, and then kids can feel
like if somebody does show them attention or interest, they're
supposed to just be grateful for it, and because they've
already feel like they don't deserve it.
Kelsey Snelling (29:43):
This is why the sexual culture at Shane was so
different from other summer camps. That feeling that bigger bodied
people need to be grateful for attention makes them more
susceptible to this type of abuse. On top of that,
there is a real worry that others may not believe
them when they report sexual misconduct or assault.
Dr. Millner (30:07):
I've also worked with a lot of adults who were
higher weight kids and adolescents who did experience sexual trauma,
and they talk about the fear that if they did
speak up, they wouldn't be believed, and I can you know,
it breaks my heart when they talk about that. And
(30:28):
if you look at so many stories through the Me
Too movement, and anytime somebody who is in a higher
weight body talks about being sexually abused, there is something
in the media about, well, why would somebody want to
abuse them? Or that can't be true, and it's horrifying
(30:52):
that that's what happens, but it is what happens.
Kelsey Snelling (30:59):
Abusers may even weaponize these concepts to further manipulate their victims. Here’s former camper Stacy Toth again
Stacy (31:08):
When you feel valued, you're able to then stand up
for yourself when abuse is coming your way, when manipulation
is coming your way. When these things are happening, you
feel like someone will listen to you, because for me,
what happened is my self worth just thanks so much
that then when I left Camp Shane and my teenage
(31:29):
years in high school, I was raped and the person said,
go ahead, and who are you going to tell? Who's
going to believe you? No one would believe that I
was interested in you, and I believed that, and I
did nothing for years.
Kelsey Snelling (31:44):
Stacy carried feelings which were reinforced at Camp Shane, that
her body only had value when she was thin, and
this same idea was used against her when she was
sexually assaulted.
Stacy (31:57):
I wholeheartedly believe that that happened because of the roots
that took place at Camp Shane and the belief that
my value my self worth was so low.
Kelsey Snelling (32:12):
Tragically, fat women are significantly less likely to be believed
about sexual abuse than thin women. This has been reflected
in multiple studies. Stacy felt she should have been grateful
to be with anyone because of her larger body. It
took Stacy years to heal from her abuse. The healing
(32:32):
journey for Seth was also hard. In the years following camp,
Seth dove into a deep depression.
Seth (32:42):
I wanted to tell both my parents, but I was
I was scared, and I was scared to tell my
mother because I wasn't sure how she was going to react.
And of course there were so many times where I
wanted to just blurt it out, but I was I
didn't know what would come of it. Are they gonna
(33:02):
say I don't believe you. Are they gonna say why
didn't you tell me sooner? Are they gonna say, I'm
going to kill the guy? How could you go back
to that camp after this happened. I didn't know what
to expect. Depression was a big part of that lack
of trust, you know, self harm in the sense, not
(33:26):
that I was like cutting myself, but you know, I
just didn't care about my appearance. I didn't do well
in school. I tried to make friends with the people,
and I just didn't you know, I still kept to
myself regardless, you know, made friends, found excuses why I
(33:48):
couldn't hang out, or I had this apartment. I was
on my own. I was an absolute I mean the
apartment was a wreck because I just didn't care, you know,
and I did nothing to help myself or you know,
I would fail before I started to avoid the pain
(34:09):
of failure that kind of thing. Had a couple of
relationships here and there, but nothing really meaningful. So I
just sort of I did just enough, I guess to
live another day for a long time, you know. And
(34:29):
then then met my wife, and that's sort of when
things changed.
Kelsey Snelling (34:42):
Well into his adult years, Seth opened up to his
then girlfriend about what happened at camp.
Seth (34:50):
And then one day she's like, you know, I'll tell
you my deepest, darkest secret. So she told me the
whole deal. And then I was like, when I was twelve,
I was sexually abused, and she's like, wow, you know,
like she wasn't thinking that I was like my deepest,
darkest secret. You know, she understood this is me telling
(35:16):
her because I needed healing.
Kelsey Snelling (35:19):
Then in 2019, something caught Seth’s attention. His wife told him that New York State had just passed the Child Victims Act (or CVA). Prior to the act, any victim of childhood sexual abuse could sue for damages only until they were 23 years old. The CVA extended the statute of limitations to the age of 55. It also granted a one year window to file a civil action of damages with no age limit. With the passage of this law, Seth knew it was time to publicly tell his story and bring Camp Shane to account. In 2020, Seth filed a lawsuit against the camp for damages. And he knew that this undertaking would require him to finally tell his mother. Thirty-five years after that summer.
Seth (36:17):
You know, I said, Mom, I got something to tell you.
And then I remember we were standing out in front
of our house and we were walking around, and I
was like, listen, do you remember when I was at camp?
And then I proceeded to tell her everything that happened.
Carla (36:40):
I was seventy five when I found out.
Kelsey Snelling (36:42):
This is Carla Kwitko, Seth's mom
Carla (36:44):
And he said to me, I was molested. I said, what, what do you mean molested? Did somebody touch you? You know, and then he, you know, said, it was at Camp Shane. And it was like, what do you mean? I mean, it, it, it's like it hits you, but you, you're not ready for it. You don't, it's like, I can't even explain it.
Seth (37:18):
Her first reaction was, believe it or not, of guilt. I should have protected you. I should have known. And I said, mom, I didn't say anything to you. You, you wouldn't have known. And, you know, she, she kind of took it hard, and she was really, really upset about it. Um, you know, that she felt like she failed me as a parent. And I was like, no, you didn't, you know, you didn't know.
Kelsey Snelling (37:50):
Know, And that guilt quickly transformed into a profound sense
of loss.
Carla (37:58):
Then I remember one day, I have this bowl on
my table and it has pictures of you know, the
family and vacation whatever. And I saw this picture of
Seth at Camshane. He must have been around eleven, and
(38:20):
I just when I saw that, I just I started
to cry. It hit me what he did to my
little kid, beautiful little child, what he did to him.
Kelsey Snelling (38:40):
Four years later, Seth’s case was settled out of court. Now, he’s finally able to breathe a little lighter.
Seth (38:49):
Telling my wife was huge doing the lawsuit was huge.
Those were all These are all things that have really
helped me along my way of course, going for therapy
and speaking about you know, the effects, the long term
(39:10):
effects of what happened, and that the more I speak,
the more cathartic it becomes, the more I open up
to people because there's no shame, there's no embarrassment. My
hope is that I'm not just healing myself, but I'm
(39:33):
going to get others to start healing as well, that
they know that what happened to them, what happened to me,
was not their fault, and that there's nothing to be
ashamed of, and there's you know, there's only moving forward
and all these things are going to be behind me
(39:55):
and there's no reason to look back anymore. They'll never
go away. But you know, like I said, with the
kind of like those stages of grief, you just you know,
you accept it, you understand that it happened, and you just
keep moving forward.
Kelsey Snelling (40:17):
By the time Seth filed his suit in 2020, The Camp Shane campgrounds had already been sold off, David was drowning in lawsuits, and Shaners both mourned and celebrated what was surely the end of Camp Shane’s 50-year reign. But actually a brand new chapter was just beginning. All it took was a little change of scenery, and Camp Shane was back in the game–only this time, they were being watched.
Seth (40:49):
They were campers leaving or counselors were leaving, kids were
getting sick, kids were getting hurt. They shut the camp down.
Kelsey Snelling (40:57):
And what were you feeling when you saw this or
heard about this?
Seth (41:01):
This can't be used against me in a court of law. A little schadenfreude, you know? Good. Right. I'm glad. But at the same time, I was, I, I, I said to myself, man, I wish that was me. I would've felt good if, if I was the one who caused that to happen.
Kelsey Snelling (41:21):
Next time. On the final episode of Camp Shame.
Pamela (41:25):
It was something out of a horror movie. The way it felt when I pulled up, There was not an adult anywhere to be seen. Pamela
Kelsey Snelling (41:36):
We reached out to David Ettenberg, Ziporah Janowski, and Peter for comment. At the time of this recording, we have not received a reply.
Camp Shame is a production of iHeartPodcasts. I’m your host, Kelsey Snelling. Camp Shame is produced by Brittany Martinez, Taylor Williamson, Sara Schleede, Luci Jones and Alyia Yates Grau. Our Editor is Courtenay Hameister with additional Editorial support from Lindsey Kratochwill and Grace Lynch. Our executive producers are Jenny Kaplan, Emily Rudder and me, Kelsey Snelling. For iHeartMedia, our executive producer is Cristina Everett. Fact checking done by Madeline Goore, Luci Jones, Paloma Moreno Jimenez, Lauren Williams and Fiona Pestana. Our theme music is produced by Sean Petell. Listen and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us on Instagram @CampShame – that's with an M!-- If you or anyone you know went to Camp Shane reach out with your camp stories
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