January 14, 2020 • 12 mins
James Kotecki of C Space Studio speaks with Brad Dancer, EVP, Insights, Analytics & Data Strategy, National Geographic Partners James.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, I'm James Kotechi. You're listening to the C Space
Studio podcast interviews with technology, media and marketing leaders from CS. Hi.
I'm James Kotecki and you're here with me in the
C Space Studio at CS. Joining us is Brad Dancer,
(00:22):
Executive vice president Insights, Analytics and Data Strategy, National Geographic Partners. Yes,
thank you very much for being here. Thank you appreciate it.
First question, what is National Geographic Partners. Graphic Partners the
joint venture of the National Graphics Society, which is the
not for profit arm and of NATO Graphic and the
World Now, the Walt Disney Company, form Fox, the Media Park,
(00:44):
the media part and so what does the partnership do?
What does it produce? We produce a cable television channel
across the globe before hundred forty million homes. We produced
in the magazine Now and million readers. Uh, the website,
educational materials or schools, um travel company, books, Kids department,
(01:05):
pretty much everything. So you're on the data insights in
analytics side. So what is your to say about how
people are consuming your content? Well, I mean I think
there's no surprise, especially on the TV side, which is
a big part of our business that everything's moving towards
streaming and OTT, although um maybe not as quickly as
some would like to think, as we have viewers on
(01:27):
all platforms. We care about our viewers on Hulu and
TV everywhere, on v o D, on the linear channel
on Disney Plus. We care about all of the viewers,
even though it is changing rapidly. And obviously we're also
in steeped in the traditional print magazine business, which is
very healthy for us, but as is our digital business.
And with a number one Brandon socials, so it's we're
(01:47):
an interesting mix of old and new and ESTI graphic
the number one Brandon social period or on Instagram twenty
nine million followers. I think as of this morning, UH
puts this UH slightly above Taylor Swift. We congratulations. UM
does the brand I mean I think, I mean, I
know what I think of when I think of the brand.
(02:08):
I think of the famous yellow borders. I think of
really amazing photography and end up writing about the planet.
What do you what do you feel like the brand
stands for? I mean, you nail it right. There's good.
We're here to educate and UH and keep people people
that love the planet they live on. We're not just
the media company. Obviously, that's what we're here, but our
(02:30):
our entire business model is to promote the exploration of
the world. So because of the joint venture, cent of
our proceeds go to society support missions. So, yes, we're
cables channel, Yes were magazine, but we do it for
a purpose which is ingrained in everybody who works there.
You mentioned the print magazine is very healthy. You know,
print as an industry has not been considered the healthiest
(02:50):
industry overall. What's your secret? I think the secrets of
photography and and and there's there's there's a certain level
of nostalgia and expertise that we bring our photography translated
to Instagram. That's why we're so big there. Um, and
there's just something about we were the Internet before the
Internet existed. We don't need us for that anymore, but
we're still off for something that you can't get anywhere else.
(03:12):
We take people of places and it's just a beautiful magazine. Yeah.
And I guess what's good about that content is that
most of it does not expire, at least expire very quickly.
I can go twenty thirty years back, and some people
of course keep all their nationals magazines and everybody keeps it. Yeah,
and they're just fun to go back and fun to
go back and look at um. How do you We
talked a lot about the brand, and of course data
(03:33):
can give you insights to go in new directions. So
you have this I believe it's over a d thirty
year old brands and then you're getting data. How do
you balance those two things? So there ever, is there
ever a time when the data says to do one
thing but the brand says to another. Sure, So two
interesting examples. One, well, anyways, on the social and digital side,
if you listen to just the data, we would probably
(03:54):
only produce baby penguin pictures because that's what people engage with,
that's what they talk about, that's what they share a
certain we like those. Those are important, but that's not
what we're here. We're not here just to get engagement.
We're here to make a difference. So we have to
go beyond that and sometimes push so we use those
pictures to bring another photos that really make an impact.
The other side of it is we would never done
free solo one us an oscar for the television network
(04:17):
because if you look at the data, mountain climbing movies
don't work. They don't get high ratings, they don't do
well in the box office. But we went against sex
when we went something different and it was on brand
and it's everything we stood for and it was huge
that was came out. That was my favorite movie, one
of my favorite movies. That was a great movie. I
was in the theater, So I was in the theater
(04:39):
and I this was a few times. I'm in the
theater yelling at the screen. It's like the people are
falling or about to fall, and like, no, um, it
just got me. And I have no very little experience,
you know, of any kind of climbing. So he's certainly
able to engage with that. So that brings up a
good point of like how do you figure out what
risks to take when you don't have the data? You know?
It's it's funny, Um, that's all you doing TV. It's
(05:00):
all risks and you never have all the data. Uh.
And there's this weird thing that goes on. I say
this being at the tech conference that suddenly there's all
this new data and television because of streaming platforms, tell
us something rich and data since Stielsen was around. I'm
not saying, you know it was consumer level data, but
it's a ton of information and we go by that
(05:21):
and we use that. But you can't rely on it
because the point of media is to get ahead of culture,
not remained behind it. So if you keep only doing
what people are telling you to do, you just go
down that funnel. We're just doing pictures of baby penguins.
And so you are I don't know if you call
yourself this, but you're like the data guy in the equation, right,
and so how do you working any of those things?
(05:41):
But it's a great But I think it's great that
you are saying that because it speaks to us probably
a partnership between you and the creative side. And so
for others watching who are curious about how to get
that kind of partnership working hand in hand, what are
some best practices that you found. Yeah, it's a it's
every day. I work in a field of extroverts and
an introverted department, uh, and so I think the most
important thing that I've learned over the years, UH is
(06:02):
speak like a producer, speak like a content they've been
working on these things for years. It's easy for us
to come in with data and go, but this didn't work,
or this person didn't like this demographic wasn't there. I'm sorry,
you just spent five years making that television show, but
it didn't work. But if you can speak to him
like a producer, they it's a business and things work
and don't work, um, and and speak at their level,
(06:23):
not at a data level. We're storytellers too. I constantly
remind them that I just used data and information to
tell my story. Um, but I can't do it in
an analytical This is up twelve percent. That's up. You
know that stuff doesn't work. So does your data get
into the difference between the kinds of nature footage that
new kinds of technology enable you to do. There's drones,
(06:45):
super high powered zoom cameras. I mean I see, yes,
we could walk the floor and probably find a dozen
new kinds of cameras and technology that you can then
integrate into your production process. There's your data speak to
the level of what kinds of technology works when you're
capturing all this time. So I have a I have
a waffling answer for you A little bit there. Uh,
the data will show you people like good and good footage,
(07:06):
So that could be on an iPhone, that could be
on a phantom camera, that can be in a drone. Uh.
And I think the technology allows us to do footage
that you've never seen before, and when it's done well
and it's in the story, people like, I don't care
what you took that photo or that that shot with
that was amazing. With some of stuff we've do in
a freestyle, it was camera work that we've never seen before.
But if it's just a drone shot because you want
(07:28):
to put an aerial in there and you feel like
you have to use your drone. Viewers are savvy, they've
seen all this stuff before. They're like, this is boring,
Like if it's interesting, so it's it's kind of the
obvious the answer. When it's works, it works. When it doesn't,
it just wasted the technology And and getting back to
Fret because I'm kind of obsessed with it. The the
fun part of the movie for me. One of the
fun parts was seeing could It was kind of like
(07:48):
a behind the scenes of how they made it in
the movie itself. When you see the camera crew on
the on the mountain. That was pretty near. I guy
who couldn't watch from the ground exactly exactly. It was
really gripping. Um. We're talking to Brad Dancer of Nowtional
Geographic Partners. Five G is coming, five G is here.
How does five G impact your business? You know? Uh,
I shouldn't this as well, being at the tech conference,
I know enough to be dangerous about five G. I
(08:10):
think it does just unlocks mobile for us, I mean
where it's it's just makes everything not absolutely We're already
heavy mobile and digital and social. I think this just
makes it that much more clean and makes streaming that
much easier. Uh, it turns streaming, I mean is streaming
becomes more complicated in terms of all the partners out
there finding content that makes it easier. The technology allows
(08:31):
it easier access to it. We're excited about it. We
like anything that allows us to find new people to
tell our stories to. One thing that seems like it
would make a lot of sense for national geographic content
is VR and really kind of shorting myself immersively in
the jungle or on a mountain or wherever do you
do you have data that speaks to whether that's actually
engaging people. So we've done a few things with the RUM,
(08:52):
with some Hollywood producers, with some of our own explorers. Um,
and I will say it still feels really native. It
still feels like we're aim with the technology. We love
new storytelling platforms, so I am super excited about the
future of that. I think it has existed in some
bad games and some testing footage of interesting shots. So
(09:13):
what we've done is like people are like, yeah, that
was cool, but I don't need to watch more in
two or three minutes of it. Uh, And it's hard
for me to kind of understand because we I don't.
There's a creative unlock that hasn't happened, you know, when
people go in and start really playing with VR and
so there's a whole new way to tell stories. I
still feel like that hasn't moved forward in the technology
has gotten better and better, the storytelling hasn't got any better.
(09:36):
I as you can see, I leaned towards the creative
side and everything because I'm like, yes, the technology allows
us to do this, but we're not doing this very
well yet, and the technology I think is caught up.
Where are all the good storytellers? What about the rise
of voice technology, audio formats like podcasting. Where does that
fit into an admittedly photography heavy brand. Sure, So we've
launched a couple of podcasts to middling success, and we
(09:57):
recently launched one Overheard. It's a great success this past year. Um,
and it was difficult for us. People were like, well,
we are a visual medium, but we're storytelling medium. So
this is the stories Overheard stories and Nation Geographic and
the sort of stories behind some of our photos and things. It's, um,
it's been excusely successful. So it's still actually based in
(10:18):
a photograph and so if I'm listening to the conversation,
I could go watch look at the photograph and then
here the story behind or an article or whatever it
might be area. So it's, um, we tied to our
brand like that. It works. We're all over it. We
love those kind of things we've done. We've done things
at Google Audio before, uh type more marketing things tied
to our shows. Um, it's an area we're not as
expertise in so but we're still playing with it. But
(10:41):
you know, we have such wonderful sound captures too, so
we're we're excited about it. So you've been at Nationally
Geographic Partners for is there an insight or a piece
of technology that you just really want to have but
you just still don't have it yet. Um, there's more
and this is uh, there's more process So because we're
so big and social, it's impossible for us to keep up.
(11:04):
And natural language processing, which again is a little bit
where a data nerd thing is terrible. Still it's still terrible.
It's it's not you know, we we don't get good
some reasonal good insights. It takes forever to really do anything,
to be able to automatically read a million tweets about
what you're doing and then summarize what that is, summarize
what is or I get a generic sentiment which doesn't
(11:25):
tell me anything. And I know there's a lot more
in there and we know there as we've seen it,
but I can't do it efficiently or effectively or quickly.
So you know, I can analyze it after the fact.
Interesting one allies at the moment moment and react at
the moment gets to the eye running. So and it's
that's one thing that I know exists more out there
than we have. I would love to have that. So
(11:47):
last question, as we close out, please fill in the
blank twenty is going to be the Year of UH.
Is gonna be the year of UH storytelling. I gotta
keep it on, friend, I love it. It's extremely Brad Dancer,
National Geographic Partners. Thank you so much for grating the
worlds of storytelling and data with us today at the
C Space Studio. All right, thank you really appreciate it.
(12:11):
This podcast is in partnership with the I Heart Podcast Network.
Hi, I'm James Kotechi. You're listening to the C Space
Studio podcast interviews with technology, media and marketing leaders from CS. Hi.
I'm James Kotecki and you're here with me in the
C Space Studio at CS. Joining us is Brad Dancer,
(00:22):
Executive vice president Insights, Analytics and Data Strategy, National Geographic Partners. Yes,
thank you very much for being here. Thank you appreciate it.
First question, what is National Geographic Partners. Graphic Partners the
joint venture of the National Graphics Society, which is the
not for profit arm and of NATO Graphic and the
World Now, the Walt Disney Company, form Fox, the Media Park,
(00:44):
the media part and so what does the partnership do?
What does it produce? We produce a cable television channel
across the globe before hundred forty million homes. We produced
in the magazine Now and million readers. Uh, the website,
educational materials or schools, um travel company, books, Kids department,
(01:05):
pretty much everything. So you're on the data insights in
analytics side. So what is your to say about how
people are consuming your content? Well, I mean I think
there's no surprise, especially on the TV side, which is
a big part of our business that everything's moving towards
streaming and OTT, although um maybe not as quickly as
some would like to think, as we have viewers on
(01:27):
all platforms. We care about our viewers on Hulu and
TV everywhere, on v o D, on the linear channel
on Disney Plus. We care about all of the viewers,
even though it is changing rapidly. And obviously we're also
in steeped in the traditional print magazine business, which is
very healthy for us, but as is our digital business.
And with a number one Brandon socials, so it's we're
(01:47):
an interesting mix of old and new and ESTI graphic
the number one Brandon social period or on Instagram twenty
nine million followers. I think as of this morning, UH
puts this UH slightly above Taylor Swift. We congratulations. UM
does the brand I mean I think, I mean, I
know what I think of when I think of the brand.
(02:08):
I think of the famous yellow borders. I think of
really amazing photography and end up writing about the planet.
What do you what do you feel like the brand
stands for? I mean, you nail it right. There's good.
We're here to educate and UH and keep people people
that love the planet they live on. We're not just
the media company. Obviously, that's what we're here, but our
(02:30):
our entire business model is to promote the exploration of
the world. So because of the joint venture, cent of
our proceeds go to society support missions. So, yes, we're
cables channel, Yes were magazine, but we do it for
a purpose which is ingrained in everybody who works there.
You mentioned the print magazine is very healthy. You know,
print as an industry has not been considered the healthiest
(02:50):
industry overall. What's your secret? I think the secrets of
photography and and and there's there's there's a certain level
of nostalgia and expertise that we bring our photography translated
to Instagram. That's why we're so big there. Um, and
there's just something about we were the Internet before the
Internet existed. We don't need us for that anymore, but
we're still off for something that you can't get anywhere else.
(03:12):
We take people of places and it's just a beautiful magazine. Yeah.
And I guess what's good about that content is that
most of it does not expire, at least expire very quickly.
I can go twenty thirty years back, and some people
of course keep all their nationals magazines and everybody keeps it. Yeah,
and they're just fun to go back and fun to
go back and look at um. How do you We
talked a lot about the brand, and of course data
(03:33):
can give you insights to go in new directions. So
you have this I believe it's over a d thirty
year old brands and then you're getting data. How do
you balance those two things? So there ever, is there
ever a time when the data says to do one
thing but the brand says to another. Sure, So two
interesting examples. One, well, anyways, on the social and digital side,
if you listen to just the data, we would probably
(03:54):
only produce baby penguin pictures because that's what people engage with,
that's what they talk about, that's what they share a
certain we like those. Those are important, but that's not
what we're here. We're not here just to get engagement.
We're here to make a difference. So we have to
go beyond that and sometimes push so we use those
pictures to bring another photos that really make an impact.
The other side of it is we would never done
free solo one us an oscar for the television network
(04:17):
because if you look at the data, mountain climbing movies
don't work. They don't get high ratings, they don't do
well in the box office. But we went against sex
when we went something different and it was on brand
and it's everything we stood for and it was huge
that was came out. That was my favorite movie, one
of my favorite movies. That was a great movie. I
was in the theater, So I was in the theater
(04:39):
and I this was a few times. I'm in the
theater yelling at the screen. It's like the people are
falling or about to fall, and like, no, um, it
just got me. And I have no very little experience,
you know, of any kind of climbing. So he's certainly
able to engage with that. So that brings up a
good point of like how do you figure out what
risks to take when you don't have the data? You know?
It's it's funny, Um, that's all you doing TV. It's
(05:00):
all risks and you never have all the data. Uh.
And there's this weird thing that goes on. I say
this being at the tech conference that suddenly there's all
this new data and television because of streaming platforms, tell
us something rich and data since Stielsen was around. I'm
not saying, you know it was consumer level data, but
it's a ton of information and we go by that
(05:21):
and we use that. But you can't rely on it
because the point of media is to get ahead of culture,
not remained behind it. So if you keep only doing
what people are telling you to do, you just go
down that funnel. We're just doing pictures of baby penguins.
And so you are I don't know if you call
yourself this, but you're like the data guy in the equation, right,
and so how do you working any of those things?
(05:41):
But it's a great But I think it's great that
you are saying that because it speaks to us probably
a partnership between you and the creative side. And so
for others watching who are curious about how to get
that kind of partnership working hand in hand, what are
some best practices that you found. Yeah, it's a it's
every day. I work in a field of extroverts and
an introverted department, uh, and so I think the most
important thing that I've learned over the years, UH is
(06:02):
speak like a producer, speak like a content they've been
working on these things for years. It's easy for us
to come in with data and go, but this didn't work,
or this person didn't like this demographic wasn't there. I'm sorry,
you just spent five years making that television show, but
it didn't work. But if you can speak to him
like a producer, they it's a business and things work
and don't work, um, and and speak at their level,
(06:23):
not at a data level. We're storytellers too. I constantly
remind them that I just used data and information to
tell my story. Um, but I can't do it in
an analytical This is up twelve percent. That's up. You
know that stuff doesn't work. So does your data get
into the difference between the kinds of nature footage that
new kinds of technology enable you to do. There's drones,
(06:45):
super high powered zoom cameras. I mean I see, yes,
we could walk the floor and probably find a dozen
new kinds of cameras and technology that you can then
integrate into your production process. There's your data speak to
the level of what kinds of technology works when you're
capturing all this time. So I have a I have
a waffling answer for you A little bit there. Uh,
the data will show you people like good and good footage,
(07:06):
So that could be on an iPhone, that could be
on a phantom camera, that can be in a drone. Uh.
And I think the technology allows us to do footage
that you've never seen before, and when it's done well
and it's in the story, people like, I don't care
what you took that photo or that that shot with
that was amazing. With some of stuff we've do in
a freestyle, it was camera work that we've never seen before.
But if it's just a drone shot because you want
(07:28):
to put an aerial in there and you feel like
you have to use your drone. Viewers are savvy, they've
seen all this stuff before. They're like, this is boring,
Like if it's interesting, so it's it's kind of the
obvious the answer. When it's works, it works. When it doesn't,
it just wasted the technology And and getting back to
Fret because I'm kind of obsessed with it. The the
fun part of the movie for me. One of the
fun parts was seeing could It was kind of like
(07:48):
a behind the scenes of how they made it in
the movie itself. When you see the camera crew on
the on the mountain. That was pretty near. I guy
who couldn't watch from the ground exactly exactly. It was
really gripping. Um. We're talking to Brad Dancer of Nowtional
Geographic Partners. Five G is coming, five G is here.
How does five G impact your business? You know? Uh,
I shouldn't this as well, being at the tech conference,
I know enough to be dangerous about five G. I
(08:10):
think it does just unlocks mobile for us, I mean
where it's it's just makes everything not absolutely We're already
heavy mobile and digital and social. I think this just
makes it that much more clean and makes streaming that
much easier. Uh, it turns streaming, I mean is streaming
becomes more complicated in terms of all the partners out
there finding content that makes it easier. The technology allows
(08:31):
it easier access to it. We're excited about it. We
like anything that allows us to find new people to
tell our stories to. One thing that seems like it
would make a lot of sense for national geographic content
is VR and really kind of shorting myself immersively in
the jungle or on a mountain or wherever do you
do you have data that speaks to whether that's actually
engaging people. So we've done a few things with the RUM,
(08:52):
with some Hollywood producers, with some of our own explorers. Um,
and I will say it still feels really native. It
still feels like we're aim with the technology. We love
new storytelling platforms, so I am super excited about the
future of that. I think it has existed in some
bad games and some testing footage of interesting shots. So
(09:13):
what we've done is like people are like, yeah, that
was cool, but I don't need to watch more in
two or three minutes of it. Uh, And it's hard
for me to kind of understand because we I don't.
There's a creative unlock that hasn't happened, you know, when
people go in and start really playing with VR and
so there's a whole new way to tell stories. I
still feel like that hasn't moved forward in the technology
has gotten better and better, the storytelling hasn't got any better.
(09:36):
I as you can see, I leaned towards the creative
side and everything because I'm like, yes, the technology allows
us to do this, but we're not doing this very
well yet, and the technology I think is caught up.
Where are all the good storytellers? What about the rise
of voice technology, audio formats like podcasting. Where does that
fit into an admittedly photography heavy brand. Sure, So we've
launched a couple of podcasts to middling success, and we
(09:57):
recently launched one Overheard. It's a great success this past year. Um,
and it was difficult for us. People were like, well,
we are a visual medium, but we're storytelling medium. So
this is the stories Overheard stories and Nation Geographic and
the sort of stories behind some of our photos and things. It's, um,
it's been excusely successful. So it's still actually based in
(10:18):
a photograph and so if I'm listening to the conversation,
I could go watch look at the photograph and then
here the story behind or an article or whatever it
might be area. So it's, um, we tied to our
brand like that. It works. We're all over it. We
love those kind of things we've done. We've done things
at Google Audio before, uh type more marketing things tied
to our shows. Um, it's an area we're not as
expertise in so but we're still playing with it. But
(10:41):
you know, we have such wonderful sound captures too, so
we're we're excited about it. So you've been at Nationally
Geographic Partners for is there an insight or a piece
of technology that you just really want to have but
you just still don't have it yet. Um, there's more
and this is uh, there's more process So because we're
so big and social, it's impossible for us to keep up.
(11:04):
And natural language processing, which again is a little bit
where a data nerd thing is terrible. Still it's still terrible.
It's it's not you know, we we don't get good
some reasonal good insights. It takes forever to really do anything,
to be able to automatically read a million tweets about
what you're doing and then summarize what that is, summarize
what is or I get a generic sentiment which doesn't
(11:25):
tell me anything. And I know there's a lot more
in there and we know there as we've seen it,
but I can't do it efficiently or effectively or quickly.
So you know, I can analyze it after the fact.
Interesting one allies at the moment moment and react at
the moment gets to the eye running. So and it's
that's one thing that I know exists more out there
than we have. I would love to have that. So
(11:47):
last question, as we close out, please fill in the
blank twenty is going to be the Year of UH.
Is gonna be the year of UH storytelling. I gotta
keep it on, friend, I love it. It's extremely Brad Dancer,
National Geographic Partners. Thank you so much for grating the
worlds of storytelling and data with us today at the
C Space Studio. All right, thank you really appreciate it.
(12:11):
This podcast is in partnership with the I Heart Podcast Network.
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