August 3, 2021 • 62 mins
This episode contains descriptions of sexual assault
For the fourteenth episode of Charges, Rex brings Kat O'Brien on the show to talk about her past career and an incident with an athlete that changed her life. Rex & Kat discuss: Where she grew up, getting into sports journalism, the relationship between male athletes & female reporters, how often members of an organization crossed the line, how the rape incident occurred & the aftermath, why she did not share her story for 18 years, her optimism, what's next & more. This episode is not to be missed!
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Executive Producers: Steve Nash, Brandon Kraines, Ezra Holland, Nate Houghteling, and Todd Barrish.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Charges. That's created by Portas and Control Media. It's produced
by DV Podcasts in association with I Heart Radio. This
time a former Sons player who you might remember as
t Rex. More video in just a moment, but this
is Rex Chapman's mug sewn and we are learning a
lot more about the charge its charges. Would it surprise
(00:22):
the listeners how often a player or organization member crosses
the line. Every once in a while there might be
some comments, someone asking like what sexual positions like? Or
what are you wearing under your or your pants. I
don't regret not coming forward because there's no chance I
(00:44):
would have been believed, and there's no chance that could
have continued in my career. Zero zero Welcome to Charges.
I'm your host Rex Chapman. Today on the show, we
have a very differ for the type of guests and
a story to tell. I'm a man who has three
(01:04):
daughters and a younger sister, so this episode really strikes
a deep chord for me to help make this world
of sports a better place today than when I was playing.
I'm proud to have on former sports journalist Kat O'Brien,
who for years covered Major League Baseball, but During that time,
she held onto a secret. Cat worked at the Fort
Worth Star Telegram, Newsday, and ESPN before ultimately leaving sports journalism.
(01:30):
She was a rising star who was taken advantage of
in a despicable way by a coward of a man.
What's worse because that it was committed by one of
her peers, a professional athlete. A few weeks ago, she
wrote a piece for The New York Times and told
her story, one that she's held onto for eighteen years.
If you haven't read it, I encourage you to do
(01:52):
so before we get started. I want to read this.
One part of her piece to you, Cat writes, I
don't want this assault to be what people think of
when they think of me. I don't want pity. Being
a survivor of rape is only a tiny part of
my story. There are hundreds of things more interesting about me,
such as my passion for Spain. I've run six marathons
(02:13):
and qualified for the Boston since having a stroke. That
I've worked for several companies, the most recognized and respected
companies in the world, and that I volunteer with International
Rescue Committee. I've traveled to more than thirty countries on
my own moved abroad, learned to scuba dive in St. Lucia,
kite surf in Spain and Brazil, and have been one
(02:33):
of the few women in many spaces. I haven't lost
my optimism. Cat. What an honor it is to have
you on the show today. Thank you for being here.
(02:55):
Thanks for having me rox Um. I appreciate you're giving
me the opportunity to talk with you and reach your audience.
We'll get into everything about you, but I want to
start here. Uh, tell me about your life as a kid.
Where are you from? How were you drawn into the
world of sports. Sure, I'm from Davenport, Iowa, so quad cities,
kind of the middle of America, right on the Mississippi River.
I was the tomboy. Uh. You know, played a lot
(03:19):
of sports, did a lot of other things too, But
I didn't have any expectation to go into sports as
a career. But I really liked telling stories. I really
like journalism. I went to Notre Dame for college, which
certainly has a pretty strong sports history, and uh, I
worked for the student newspaper, which is a daily paper
(03:40):
Monday through Friday, and found covering sports to be get
a lot more attention and interest from people than covering
what professor was giving a lecture or whether a restaurant
on campus might stay open half an hour later. UM.
And so I kind of started doing more sports and
(04:02):
then I remember really clearly. Actually actually it's sad timing,
but uh, this professional track athlete Paul McMullen raced on
a in a meet on campus, and I did a
feature on him, and he he sent me a handwritten
note a couple several weeks later, after USA Today had
also done a piece, and UM, he said that my
piece was better. And I was like this year old,
(04:26):
and I was like, wow, this is really cool, this
you know athlete. UM. And sadly he actually just died
this year in an accident. UM. But he helped kind
of push me, like I'm gonna do more sports and
then you know the UM. Yeah, so those small things
that someone does can sometimes have unexpected consequences and intentions,
(04:49):
and and so you know, I focused more in sports
and the newspaper and then ended up getting an internship. UH.
The summer I graduated through the Association of Women in
Sports Media, and UH, I joined the Fort Worth Star
Telegram as an intern, thinking maybe I could get on
it like a small paper somewhere. The Star Telegram was
(05:09):
one of the top sports sections in the country, and
they ended up hiring me full time. And so that's
that's my story and how I got into sports pretty much. Look,
I gotta say, uh, my entry in the media was
tough because of my background in personal life. But I
never had to be an intern. But I got hired
coming right out of the summer. Um, actually part way
(05:30):
through the summer, I got an offer and then started
covering primarily high school sports and then also would help
out with kind of whatever or else was near the
high school sports in Texas or a big deal. We
had at the time different sections depending on which area
of the region people lived in, so you know, with
(05:51):
subscribers would get a certain edition, and UM covered a
lot of high school sports, football, basketball, baseball, try everything there,
very very very popular next level, and then would help
out with a lot of other things, especially you know,
in the summer there aren't high school high school sports,
so UM baseball. I had, you know, studied Spanish, so
(06:14):
baseball was really a particularly a natural fit because I
brought something that um, you know, most people wouldn't have
in terms of being able to speak Spanish with players.
What was your favorite part about covering baseball. I mean,
you you can get to know people really well because
they play every day. So I think you know, that
(06:37):
gives reporters a better chance to get to know players. UM.
I think that can be tougher in a big media
market like New York, for instance, because there's so many reporters.
Players maybe a little more guarded with good reason. Um,
but you know, when you're around people every day like
in Texas and there are only a handful their their
(06:59):
day in and day out. In terms of reporters, you can,
you know, potentially get a chance to get to know people.
While I think I always tried to be fair with uh,
not just players, with everyone around sport, and um, I
think that people recognize that. Most people recognize that, and UM, yeah,
so I think just the day and day out aspect
(07:20):
of it. While that can be a challenge, UM, it
also can and give you a better opportunity to know people.
As compared to football like NFL, where they're playing once
a week, a lock around maxis is super limited. Uh,
interview access is really limited. I think it's harder to
get to know the players in that space. At what
point did you have the realization, Oh, because I'm a woman,
(07:43):
this job is going to be different for me than
if I was a man. Mm hmm, that's a good question. Um.
I guess it's just sort of a gradual thing. You know.
It's like, I don't know that I thought about it
much in college. Um. You know, college your access is
more limited on a college campus as opposed to professional athletes.
(08:04):
There are a lot of comments in the atmosphere that
you deal with. Um, this is not just players, So
I'm not singling out players by any stretch. This is
just the whole atmosphere. So UM, I don't buy any
stretch things that players were more guilty of sexual harassment
or anything than other people around the sport or or
(08:29):
in life really. But um, but it is a very
male dominated atmosphere. So whether that's from you know, agents,
to coaches, to players to other reporters, UM, it's just
a reality that you deal with. I I do remember
like a few times talking to other women, but there
(08:49):
weren't a lot of other women covering baseball, So maybe
talk to another woman who was working in Dallas sport
wars but not covering baseball. Or or one of the
few women who was coming baseball if they had any tips.
Then again, you're like, twenty three, how much do you
want to bother this person who's been working in the
game for ten twenty thirty years or in the industry
(09:12):
for that long. Um. And I remember different people talking
about different approaches based on their personality, based on the
experiences they'd have, because uh, you could. I mean, two
people working in the same sport in the same sector
don't have the same experiences, so you might not have
had maybe maybe you covered a team where someone was
(09:36):
really egregious, or maybe the exact opposite, where a captain
of the team was like, hey, you don't you don't
do this, and then that person had a big positive effect. UM.
So I think, you know, dependent on the atmosphere, of course,
then it are you traveling, are you on the road? Um?
And and then personality wise, like there are people who
(09:59):
have a certain personality where they're going to react more strongly,
they're going to things are going to roll off them
more easily. And then age, I mean, if I was
I was twenty two, twenty three in my twenties the
whole time I covered baseball, so Uh, you're at the
same age or in many cases younger. Maybe then a
(10:21):
lot of the players. Um and if I had been
in my fifties, I'm sure it would be a different
one based on what you would encounter. But to based
on even now, I would probably have a different response.
I might take a little less language, but that's right,
(10:42):
say whatever you like. A lot has been made in
the last few years about locker room talk. The locker
rooms of today are very different from my era in
coverage and decency. I'm ashamed to admit that wild teammates
belittle female reporters with inappropriate conduct. I, as a young man,
(11:03):
did not step in like I should have, which makes
me complicit. The workplace is meant to be a safe
haven for all, but sadly, across sports, we're seeing a
pattern of vile behavior from the past to the president
that must be corrected. The president of l s U
says there was a quote institutional betrayal and how the
university handled accusations of sexual misconduct. This comes as an
(11:27):
outside law firm released its report of failures to address
such issues on campus. Fifteen former female employees of the
Washington Redskins have accused members of the team's front office
of sexual and verbal harassment. This and a new report
from The Washington Post. The accusations spanned from two thousand
six or two thousand nineteen and include longtime radio voice
(11:47):
Larry Michael, also director of Pro Personal Alex Santos, and
his assistant Richard Matt new report on sexual harassment in
the Dallas Mavericks basketball team, investigators have found a hostile
culture for women at the team owned by billionaire MARKQ.
Been Cuban and his Mavericks facing the bite of a
bombshell report revealing multiple instances of sexual harassment and workplaced
(12:08):
misconduct over two decades, Carolina Panthers founder and principal owner
Jerry Richardson announced his plans to sell the team at
the end of the season, amid reports he gave payouts
to four former employees to settle claims of misconduct and
racial slurs. Just five weeks after he was hired, the
Mets dismissed their general manager, Jared Porter. He was quickly
(12:30):
fired today when news of a sexting scandal went public,
and the Mets organization says it knew nothing about the
allegations until Jared Porter called them last night. They say
he told them about the disturbing claims being made against
him by a female reporter from Korea. The Mets say
he took full responsibility for his actions and expressed remorse.
(12:53):
I gotta say this, Uh, I was a teenager entering
the NBA in the late eighties, and it was right
at that time that, um, you know, ladies were coming
in the locker room and um, I you know, and
I've never talked to them about it, but I saw
Hannah Storm worked in Charlotte, and uh, she was one
(13:17):
of the first that I knew that came into the
locker room. Uh. The other was Jackie McMullin. And I witnessed,
you know, just awful things you know, take place where
you know, obviously I saw that they saw, you know,
what was happening, and just the strength that it took
(13:42):
to continue to work and thrive in that environment. So
how would you describe your professional relationship with athletes during
your career and would it surprise the listeners how often
a player or organization member or crosses the line. Um,
(14:03):
I mean I would say with the vast majority of people, UM,
for the most part, I had a good and professional relationship.
I would say most players, uh by and large, treated
me very professionally. Um. Even some said things like, oh
you know I would I would think of you like
(14:26):
a sister or something. I wouldn't want someone to treat
my sister x y Z way, and so would um.
You know, in some cases even be more cordial, where
they might have snapped at a male athlete like they
didn't want to because they didn't think they should treat
a woman that way. So UM, I would say most
(14:47):
players and most people around the game generally treated me
well and or or if not well, of the same
way they would have treated a male athlete or a reporter. Sorry.
You know, like if if someone and I'm not gonna
negatively call out anybody, but if if a certain player
known for sort of snapping at reporters snapped at me,
(15:10):
I wasn't probably because I was a woman. That was
just because hey, he was saying me like everyone else.
So you know, there's one athlete who, um was a
notorious jerke. I mean I don't if anyone said he
wasn't a jerk, I would be shocked, Like he's probably
the person you're thinking of. You're thinking of this person
(15:30):
but I'm not going to name negatively name any person. Um.
And he also he one time, like or more than
one time, I remember, purposely like basically walked around naked,
so because you know, you would try to not be
looking if someone's changing. So that one was a very
obvious one. Um. So was that him being kind of
(15:54):
a sexist jerk? Yes? Was he just a jerk in
general to almost everyone? Yes? So um so Yeah. And
then there were others who by and large would treat
me well. But every once in a while there might
be some comments, someone asking like what sexual positions like
(16:16):
or what are you wearing under your scart or your pants,
which like obviously not okay, um, but also other reporters
making jokes about such and such female reporter must be
sleeping with so and so um And I couldn't even
think how many people uh said that over time. Uh.
And given I heard it said about um a lot
(16:40):
of other women, I can only assume what was said
about almost all of them at one point or another.
So it's so sad, it really is. And when I
talked about I'm glad you said it, you know, kind
of freed me up. You know, one of my first
experiences with female in the locker room. Um, you know,
I had teammate who just kind of waited for the
(17:04):
the reporter to come in and then took off his
towel and then started, you know, using the lotion on
his legs and to you know, didn't start the interview
until that happened. Now, of course I'm calling that guy out.
Uh at nineteen and twenty and twenty one and hell,
(17:26):
maybe even thirty one, I don't know. I didn't and
that makes me feel bad. We'll be right back after
a word from our sponsors. The Department of Justice says
eighteen percent of women in the United States have been
raped at some point in their lifetime. Eighteen that's almost
(17:51):
one out of every five women, or the populations of
Washington State, Oregon, Idaho, Nevada, Montana, Wyoming, and Utah combined.
And about two thirds of victims know their attacker. So
why do you only six of cases get reported? Well,
it's complicated. Sometimes victims don't want to get the offender
(18:14):
in trouble. Sometimes they believe police can't help. But every
time a victim is dealing with some sort of trauma,
most times we think of physical, emotional, or mental trauma.
But what if I told you sexual assault victims are
also hit financially. The d o J finds that almost
(18:35):
fifty of sexual assault survivors lose their jobs who are
forced to quit. On June, Cat published an op ed
in The New York Times, and she came forward about
the rape for the first time. The piece sent shock
(18:57):
waves throughout the sports media world, but to day, none
of the league's including Major League Baseball, have acknowledged it
as a moment of reckoning. I want to ask, and
just as a starting point, I know you wrote about
what happened, and you've talked about in other interviews, but
still are you comfortable with talking about what happened? And
(19:18):
I want you to know whatever level of comfort you
have or don't have at any point, just please it's
okay too, and I'll stop and respect that. Yeah, I'll
do I'll do my best to us and so we'll
go as much as I can. I got it, Okay, thanks? Um, okay,
So if you're willing, can can we talk about the
(19:40):
day of the incident or days leading up to it
and that week you know, sort of coming to the head. Yeah, So, um,
I just uh, one player, Um, not on the team
that I covered, so I I have at no point,
although some role sluice on the internet like to think
(20:02):
they can guess who. I very specifically did not give
any clues other than saying it was not a player
on a team I covered. So UM of his name
player wanted to UH said he wanted to talk confidentially
for a story I was doing. UM. I thought that
seemed plausible. Initially suggested meeting like at a bar someplace,
(20:26):
because it was going to be after the game. UH,
so that's what would be open UM. And then he said, oh,
I don't want someone to see and know I was
talking to you. UM, can can we do it at
my hotel? And I decided yes. I was very trusting
(20:50):
and thought, sure he was talking, that seems plausible. He
doesn't want one to know, UM, and so uh so
I went to um his hotel room after the game
after I got done parting, and had you know, my
notebook and pen and recorded to you know, interview him,
(21:11):
and sat down to interview him. And it did start
as that. So there wasn't an indication when I got
there that there was any other purpose or anything else
that he was looking for. It it all seemed straightforward.
He was not wearing like no clothes or anything crazy. Um.
(21:32):
And then uh, you know, after a few minutes, he
moved to kiss me, and I was taken aback, and
It's like, what are you doing? And I'm probably not
going to like feel comfortable going into love of detail,
but he just he continued to kissed me and pushed
me towards the bed and then he did not, um stop,
(21:54):
and he did not take note for an answer, and
um and UM, I uh yeah, I UM. I never
I never told anybody until earlier this year, not a
single person, and I honestly never really thought about telling anyone.
I think there was one one or two times I
(22:15):
thought about telling a female friend, um, basically in light
of them talking about something much less egregious but but
not not great that had happened to them. And then
I felt that, um, you know, if you tell someone,
someone always tells someone. They tell their their boyfriend, they
tell their roommate, and so then I was just really
(22:38):
terrified that it was going to get out. UM. So
I never told anyone, even though, um, I think it
was the next day I was back at the ballpark,
and um, I a teammate of this players. Uh. I
could hear and see him like gesture and making saying
(23:01):
something in conjunction with the other player's name. And I
was just astonished that like, Okay, this player said clearly
he didn't say I raped her. I can't imagine they
had to have said like, oh I hooked up with
this reporter or something that made me look bad. And
(23:22):
and I remember I was so like humiliated, like, oh
my god, is everyone going to not well know this
other version of it and think this about me? Because
there's already this um kind of this perception among some
people that that female reporters are not there to um,
(23:44):
do a job, but they're there to like pick up
pick up guys or some crazy thing. It's it's something
that it's a rumor that people say. UM. And and
I always will remember that that teammate like he did,
he continued to do that every time I would see
him and he would make comments or UM, I would
(24:07):
overhear him, and I really tried to avoid him as
much as I could. UM. But that to me was
a really egregious that he continued to do that for
years that I was, you know, still covering baseball that's
just it's just heartbreaking. Um, I am so sorry. Do
you beat yourself up about trusting, about trusting because and
(24:30):
I have daughters twenty two and twenty six, and you know,
younger sister. I think about those you know, young babies,
their babies, and you know, being so trusting of somebody
who's when you look back, was meaning to do you hard? Well,
(24:51):
I mean I do, and yet I also, like, I
don't want to lose that like ability to trust people
or to believe the best in people. And I mean
I will say, like I feel like I have fought
through personal things, through things happening in the world, you see,
like just terrible things happening in the world. I have
like really fought to be like I want to be.
(25:13):
I would much rather be a glass three quarters full
person and believe the best of someone and be disappointed. Actually,
I've run a lot with the Nike Run Club and
there's this coach, coach Chris Bennett. He I can't remember
the exact wording, but he said something. I was like, Yes,
that is how I feel I would. I'm gonna totally
butcher it, but basically, I would rather think the best
(25:36):
of people and have them disappoint me than think the
worst of people and just be disappointed in life. So
I'm gonna stick with that. But yet sometimes you do
have to be a little more cautious or protective. Um So,
I yeah, I mean, I guess to get into and
(25:58):
I talked about this in my piece, but for your audience,
um so, I never ever ever thought of telling anyone.
And then uh, this this winter when uh um, Jared
Porter was fired as Matts GM, and I was reading,
even though I'm not working in sports anymore, I'm not
working in baseball, but I read things and specifically if
(26:19):
they're particularly relevant interesting, and I was reading a lot
of the coverage by people about him getting fired for
persistent sexual harassment of a female reporter. And so I'm reading,
um some just general coverage. But then women in baseball
and sports writing about, you know, their experiences. And then
(26:39):
I can remember I was sitting I actually it was
not this couch because I got a new couch, but
I was sitting here like reading and uh, brit Julie
Um from the Athletic had a peace and something that
started out the same way happened to her didn't then
the same way. Thank god, but she went to interview
a player in his tell room. UM. When she arrived, though,
(27:02):
she had um a very romantic setup and was basically
like what that like? And she turned around and left. UM.
But I read it and I just was like, oh
my god, because it's it's not as if I totally
blamed myself, but I kind of did, like I just
like put in this box over here, because I don't
(27:23):
think that I could have continued as a reporter if
I felt like that was something that was like a
danger for me. UM. And I also I don't I
don't regret not coming forward because there's no chance I
would have been believed and there's no chance I could
have continued in my career zero zero. So but anyway,
(27:44):
I read her piece and I was just like, disagree
with you. I wish I could disagree with you. Yeah,
I wish, I wish, I wish I could disagree with me.
But UM, you know, I I just I saw she
did the same thing, and I was just like, oh,
I wasn't it wasn't just me. I wasn't the only
(28:05):
like person who would fall for this. Um And And
I talked to other people, well, lots of women who
have done interviews in hotel rooms, and some who were
like it was fine, some who had a bad experience,
not only in sports, in journalism in general. UM. So yeah,
I mean we can get to that. But when my
piece came out, the volume of people who wrote to
(28:28):
me or reached out to me to say they've been
through something similar, it was just devastating, just devastating, not
only in journalism, I mean just people across the board. Yeah,
I want to ask this, um, in this type of
professional situation, did you ever even consider that someone could
do something like this? And I asked because this was
(28:48):
a crime, and most people in most jobs, certainly high
profile public public eye type jobs, don't consider that a
crime could take place at a job. I mean, I
know I had never thought about that. I no, I
mean I guess where I thought of. I remember a
(29:09):
few times, like either myself or other people I worked
with telling me to be careful in certain situations, like
you're leaving a stadium late at night by yourself. Um.
I traveled, I traveled to the Dominican Republic a few
times to do reporting. UM, And I actually remember, um
(29:30):
that it was really worried, like I do not want
something to happen to you, and um, funny enough, I
like I remember thinking, gosh, it's much more dangerous leaving
like uh Detroit or Cleveland Ballpark late at night or
the Bronx by myself than me being in a cab
(29:51):
and such in the d R. Of course, any experience
could depending, but I generally liked UM, so I would say,
just those sort of late night by yourself, UM situations
where you think, oh, should I pay extra and take
a cab rather than take you know, the subway or
something that's a certain time, but not um that it
(30:12):
might be like not that someone in the game might Yeah,
I'm sure I know the answer to this, And I
just hate, uh, you know, since you didn't tell literally
anyone afterwards. Zero chance, zero thought given to calling the police. No,
no chance. I mean, it's just it's just something that's
(30:36):
really um, you know, as I when I did decide
to write this, so after I read Britt's Peace, I
well then I told someone. Actually, like took a couple
of weeks, but I was just like having nightmares and
um couldn't sleep and was just crying a lot, and
I decided to tell someone and tell like a few
(30:58):
close friends. And then, um, I decided to write something
because even though I'm not currently a professional writer, I
did that for a bunch of years and I'm still
a writer, and I felt like I could tell my
story better than someone else could tell my story. Um,
And so I decided to And initially I was going
to publish it on medium, but as I was writing,
(31:20):
and like, I spent a few weeks kind of remembering
different things and figuring out exactly why I wanted to
say in the direction, and you know, did some research
on stats and actually only like one percent of of
rape allegations end up with the person going to jail.
(31:41):
One percent really terrible, and out of all I had
hundreds of people reach out to me. UM, somewhat higher
than that have some sort of consequence, like like they
have to pay a fine or something like that. But
in terms of actually say jail, one percent, UM, in
a a very small minority are convicted. UM. And usually
(32:04):
those there's some sort of there was a witness, there
was some sort of video camera something like that. So no,
I don't I didn't think of it, and I don't regret.
You know, that sounds terrible because you know what people
have said like, well, how is someone else going to
(32:25):
feel better about coming forward? And I'm like, they probably shouldn't.
That is terrible, but they probably shouldn't. Um. I mean,
God bless and and more power to every person who
does come forward, because I cannot imagine actually how difficult.
I mean. I read stories of people who faced challenges
at challenges as a very nice way to put it
(32:47):
at the um hands of police or people investigating. UM. Yeah,
the only there was almost out of the hundreds of
people who wrote to me that it was like two
people that had some sort of actual consequences for the
person they accused. One UM, there were other people it
(33:10):
was like an abuser at a camp UM and and
but there were no criminal consequences, but he lost his job.
And then one where the person was convicted UM serves
zero jail time but had to pay the person's legal
offense legal expenses. So that's not to say that's there
are people that do face more consequences, but it's it's difficult.
(33:36):
In your piece for The Times, Cat, you wrote that
you went home and tried to numb your sadness and rage. UM.
I can only imagine what you or anybody else is
feeling at that time. How did you deal with those feelings?
I think I just tried to ignore them as best
(33:59):
I could, and um yeah, I mean I um yeah,
just to kind of like pretend as if it didn't
had never happened. I wasn't a dres and successful in that.
I mean I talked about there was a player who
UM said things. I remember because I knew like this
(34:19):
player had was saying things um the teammate. I remember
a few times where uh say, I was applying for
a job, or I got contacted about a job or
later you know, I got my m b A and
I stayed in sports but on the business side, and
I applied for jobs in Major League Baseball at UM
a couple of teams. I remember interviewed with the Red
(34:41):
Sox at one point, and I just remember being like
terrified that executive was going to find out, which is
really so crazy because I'm worried that someone's going to
find out that someone committed a crime against me. Um.
But I don't think I was wrong to think that
because and that that's that's honestly one of the reasons
(35:05):
I decided to come forward. Now, even though I like
I can't prove I never told anyone. There's nothing, but
if someone else is telling a false story about you,
all that has had years to accumulate. I just felt like,
if if I'm going to tell my true story and
(35:26):
UM that way, if for some reason, I don't know,
if I ever decided to go back to the sports sector,
because honestly, I was really good at working in sports,
and UM, I could go back into that space at
some point if I decide to. UM, I my story
is out there, as opposed to just someone else's story.
It's beautiful. You know. I want to pause here and
(35:47):
acknowledge nothing too. By the way, you know, none of
this was your fault. Uh. You know you're having to
talk about something that was done to you. You're not
by you. And in a better society, it would be
the person who did this, who committed this horrific crime
and would be forced to deal with it and talk
about it and face repercussions from it. And I just
want to say, Kat, thank you, thank you for your
(36:08):
bravery for doing this. We'll be right back after a
word from our sponsors. After the first few days of
Olympic competition, we've already seen American exceptionalism at its best,
with first ever wins in some events and repeated medals
(36:29):
in others, but we've also taken a few losses, the
biggest allowing an athlete who has had multiple sexual assault
accusations to compete on the world's biggest stage. Days after
fencer Alan Hetzik joined the Olympic team, six women fencers
filed formal complaints of sexual misconduct to the US Center
for Safe Sport, the nonprofit agency responsible for protecting athletes
(36:51):
from abuse. Yet instead of taking these complaints seriously once again,
they were dismissed. Faster than shake. Harry Richardson was dismissed
for taking performance enhancing drugs. You would say fencing took
it a step further and created the most insulting safety
plan to protect women on the team. Had sick, was
required to take a separate plane to Tokyo, stay thirty
(37:13):
minutes away from the Olympic village in his own hotel,
and practice away from all women. With sports now being
seven three billion upon billion dollar industry, there are still
often heartwarming stories that take center stage. But as we've
(37:34):
seen from coverage on the Olympics and even Major League Baseball,
there is nowhere to hide when the line is crossed.
The only hope these cowards have is to hope and
hide behind those they've wrong in hopes that they stay silent.
What was your perception of a Major League Baseball locker
(37:54):
room culture and could that have created conditions for such
a horrible will act, you know, to be encouraged or
even or excused? You know, I think it can, But
I also think like societal things can, so I don't
think that baseball or any league can solve these problems
(38:16):
on their own. And I also don't think that one
act can be um say that you can say that's
because of x y z or that's the result of
someone failing to do x y z. UM. So that's
why I really tried in my piece to say, Okay,
there was this one really really terrible thing that happened,
(38:38):
but there was also a lot of there are a
lot of things less egregious, but that we're an everyday
thing and so when you deal with them every day,
that can in some be just as challenging, um depending
depending they can um so, uh are there things baseball
(38:58):
can do, teams can do to educate players and team
officials and frankly kin media outlets educate their own members. Yes,
uh is that going to run everything? Absolutely not. So
I do think that there are things that can be
done to kind of reduce the amount of um, you know,
(39:21):
sexual comments, harassment, things like that, um and hopefully you know,
even more stories coming out will make it less likely
that some of those things happen. I think also steps
taken by other people who overhear it. So not an
official thing, but um, if everyone moves one or two
(39:43):
steps uh more to like the side of good, I
can say that, but that could make a huge difference.
So maybe, Okay, you're probably not going to get someone
who is currently committing sexual assault or rape to become
just this speacon of of uh supporting women, at least
not in the near term, but maybe they become less egregious.
(40:07):
Maybe someone who would never consider assaulting someone but uh,
you know, laughs about sexual harassment, maybe they don't laugh atter.
Or maybe the person who doesn't even laugh about it,
but stays silent when they hear a joke says, hey,
actually that's not that funny. So I think those like
micro steps can um may sound silly, but I think
(40:30):
that they can make a big difference over time. Yeah,
when you decided to go forward and not report the perpetrator. Uh,
from what you've said in other interviews, that was a
decision you made because you were aware of how these
things normally go, and you touched on it a little
bit earlier. Um. Have you encountered with those ladies that
(40:53):
have written you, uh any success stories where they've they're
perpetrator has faced significant repercussions. Um so not really no, Um,
I mean their story is of course like that exists
in the world. Um Uh More, I feel like I've
(41:17):
become even more saddened by kind of I mean, there
are any number of stories is happening right now. There's
I mean there's obviously the accusations against Trevor Bauer. Um
with the Dodgers. There's a fencer right now in the
Olympics who has so many sexual assault allegations against him, which,
by the way, my my dear friend Melissa Cigara is
(41:38):
one of the reporters on that. Um, he has these allegations,
his whole team doesn't want him to be there. They
had to fly him on a different plane. Like that
means these are there's some legit, you know, there's a
lot behind these allegations. It's not one person, and so
that just kind of makes me sad that like, Okay,
well we care, and yet someone's not in the Olympics
(42:01):
because she tested positive for marijuana. Look, I know, I
know there are rules, but we have to bend over
backwards to have this person be an alternate who has
and he's an alternate. He's an alternate because you're going, well,
he must be really good, no, not good enough to
not be an alternate at this point apparently, and they're
giving him the benefit of the So, I mean, there
(42:23):
was of all the people who wrote to me, uh,
I would say that the first week after my peace
came out, I was it was really overwhelming. Just look
I had I heard from hundreds of people who I
know who care about me, reached out to support, be supportive. UM.
There were some you know, trolls on the Internet and
(42:43):
such that like say you're lying and whatever. But what
was really the most devastating were hearing from so many people.
I heard from complete strangers. I heard from friends, acquaintances, relatives, colleagues,
people I went to school with, UM, other reporters, all
(43:04):
of whom said like they either were sexually assaulted or raped,
some more than once in their life. And it was
just so sad to here and it made me really think,
like every single one of these people, in some way, smaller, big,
no matter how strong or resilient whatever, has been negatively
affected by this, Every single one and some in you know,
(43:28):
life alterin ways that they have never been able to
people spiral and uh, you know, I've listened to some
of your podcasts and people talk about, you know, one
terrible thing happened that ended up caused them to spiral.
And um, so every single one of the person who
has been sexually assaulted or raped has had negative consequences
(43:49):
in their life. And think about how much better we
as a society could be if each of those people
us be we people. I guess I didn't have that burden,
Like what could each of those people have accomplished? What
heights could they have reached? And that's true not just
it's also true of you know, of racism, of bigotry,
(44:10):
of all kinds of things, but they're thinking about that
one aspect of the sexual assault, sexual harassment. We could
be so much better as a world if everyone, you know,
could reach their full full potential preach on can you
look back now and see did you like pour yourself
into your job or into running marathons or you know,
(44:31):
did you exercise? How did you cope? I mean I
definitely was very focused on my job. I definitely did
not date really at all for a few years, I
would say, like really until I moved to New York
for the most part. Um I so I I mean
(44:52):
psychologists could probably say there's you know, you're avoiding um,
potential dangerous situations or or physically or psychiogically like, um, yeah.
I mean it's also easy to at the time be like, oh,
of course I'm working. Well, I mean I'm I was
(45:13):
covering baseball, I'm traveling a hundred eighty days a year
for work. I I worked nights and weekends. So it's
pretty easy to be like, oh, I don't have time
to date, because that's you have to make time for it. Um.
But yeah, I think I was pretty focused on my
my job, and you know I was. I was at
the time in like covering high schools and helping out
(45:35):
with baseball and other sports. And then I became the
second baseball writer, um, like a few months a year later,
and then for the start telling room, I had two
baseball writers, and I became the lead baseball writer, and
then I moved to New York and covered the Yankees
for Newsday. So um, so yeah. I stayed covering baseball
(45:55):
until two thousand nine, when I left to go get
my m b A. So um. I guess probably was
continued to be very career focused. Um, not that I'm
not anymore, but it's certainly not the only thing in
my life. Right, We'll be right back after a word
(46:17):
from our sponsors. Respected former sports journalist Cat O'Brien, in
an opinion piece for The New York Times, kept me
this public for the first time that she was raped
by a Major League baseball player in two thousand two.
She was just twenty two at the time. She was
a year out of college, and she says she never
(46:39):
reported what happened because she was afraid of the backlash.
She writes that it was quote a trauma that had
been living inside me for eighteen years. Eighteen years, two
years old. This could have happened to your loved one. Unfortunately,
(47:03):
possibly it has, whether you know it or not. Those
who use their positions of power for sexual impropriety. Your
day of reckoning is upon you. We are seeing it
in industries and in countries around the globe. We almost
do our best to protect those in need. And if
you are a loved one needs to hear this. Share
(47:23):
your voice. I support you, speak your truth. It sounds
strange to say this, but what are the positives you
hope will come from you adding your voice to this
issue of Yeah, sexual assault, but also the problem of
women not feeling believed or safe to report their sexual assaults. Yeah.
(47:49):
So I had kind of three things in mind. Basically
that I hope one that some other people. It's been
mostly women, but I have heard from some and um
would uh either feel comfortable coming forward, whether publicly, or
would at least seek help from friends or or support
(48:10):
um or at least not blame themselves. So somehow that
people would find comfort. And a lot of people have
written to me. Some have written to me that told
me they don't like only told one of their persons,
So I do think that it's had some positive effect
in that way. UM. Secondly, this one is the one
that I think the jury is out on. I hope
(48:32):
and hope that some leagues and or teams not because
isn't just a baseball problem by any stretch. UM might
do some things to make less likely the general air
of sexual harassment. This can also be media outlets, by
the way, but do leagues MLB but also other leagues
(48:53):
or individual teams put in place more education, more awareness
of sexual assault, sexual harassment, all of it. UM. So
you can't prevent all of it, you definitely can't, but
you can make it less likely. I mean, I mentioned
piece there was one time, only one time that I
ever spoke up UM and I was I really didn't
(49:14):
want to, and I but I felt like something had
kind of there was a evolution where something was getting worse,
players were feeling comfortable to do something, and I ended
up saying something and the team was super supportive and uh,
and so that was it was Brian Cashman like, thank you.
(49:36):
He was super on the ball, UM like very much. So,
So you know, things like that I think can help
so with management if teams, if player leadership are are
UM not accepting. So that's one thing though that I
hope more teams in leagues. I think there's more that
can be done there. I know there's more that can
(49:56):
be done there has Major League Baseball done anything as
a group at all to do that, And I want
to say that I don't know that NBA has or
the NFL has either. I know that all the leagues
have some sort of at least minimal training or education.
I don't know all the ins and outs. I haven't heard.
(50:17):
I talked to one person from Major League Baseball really
not on a official matter. I haven't heard from them
in an official capacity. I don't know of any specifics
of statement to CNN when I went on CNN, um,
and I did hear from one person there? Um I
(50:37):
think I also, I mean I heard from a couple
of managers and coaches who I know in the league.
I heard from one player, and that's yeah. It's so
one person working for the league to people who have
been coaches or managers on teams like or or executives
on teams I covered, and one player total, So that
(51:00):
that actually was surprising and disappointing to me, because there
are players who have kept in touch with over the years,
at least sporadically that I would have thought would say
something reach out. But and then the last thing, the
last one that I hope would have an impact. This
is one that literally every one of us can do.
(51:21):
So I talked about this earlier, but just those like
little stuffs, micro changes. I mean. I I mentioned in
my piece that the first two guys people I'm close
to that I told about this, um, they both were like,
oh my god, that's so awful. Support you believe you.
But they also were like, but you couldn't get away,
and uh, one in any situation, someone can't always get away.
(51:45):
But then on top of it, you're talking about a
professional athlete who is one professional athlete but also outweighed
me by a lot. So to have two people who
are really close to you say that, just that chip
of awareness. But even on a broader level, like I said,
jokes when someone around you is making a joke about
(52:05):
sexual harassment or or that like oh all women x
y Z just being a little more cognizant. Look. I
would love to never have to ever talk about this.
I would love to never have to like raise awareness
to share awful stories. I would love for never happen
because and recently especially as like since this has come out,
(52:26):
and you know, if I see a story, I might
like retweet it or I share it and I don't
want that, Like, that is not the thing I want
to talk about life. There's so many other things I
care about, So just stop doing it and then none
of us will have to talk about it, like really, yeah,
you know. And I'm gonna tell you something that that
um Rick Pettino told me once he was I had
(52:48):
had a um I was had a painkiller issue for
many years, if you didn't know, and um I was
in rehab and he came to see me and I said, listen,
nobody's ever gonna want to talk to me anymore. He said,
You're gonna be fine. I said, I'm toxic, nobody you know.
And he said, Rex, your story is going to help
a lot of people. And I said, this isn't my
fucking story. Through tears, I understand. Two weeks later I
(53:13):
had to accept, or a month later, two years later,
it's my story and it's just going to be part
of my story. And I say that to say this
that I can't imagine the pain not only during and
when you were young, but that you've carried all these years.
(53:33):
And I don't know that there's ever a perfect time,
but in this climate we're in, you're gonna help so
many people because I think you're gonna you are going
to empower other women, other reporters. Um, it's not just women,
you know, uh, to to share their stories. So I
(53:54):
hope so and yeah and thanks for thanks for that.
And you know, I want to say on on that No, well,
I definitely had the same reaction. I don't want this
to be my story. But I guess we don't always
get to choose what, um might be part of our story.
But on the you know, the opioid addiction, I feel
so grateful. So I, Um, I mentioned that I had
(54:16):
a concussion that led to a stroke. Um, I knew
about the stroke. Yeah, the month after I graduated from Warton,
I got sick on airplane. Um, they found me unconscious.
I'd hit my head. It caused me to have I'd
never had a migraine. I had a migraine for almost
two years and not caused a stroke. But I am
really grateful that I never and lucky that I did
(54:37):
not develop an opiate addiction because I was taking like
I was taking like purcose at oxygen and it actually
did it actually didn't even barely touch the pain. I
was in that much pain. So maybe because it didn't
help me that much. I didn't get but but in
knowing how easy it can be, you know, just by
(54:59):
the wrong luck. I've heard so many stories, So I'm
glad that you were able to get off. But I'm
I'm you know, I'm fortunate that I didn't um because
because I was having to take those for pain. Yeah,
And you know, also I looked back and I was
taking them. You're lucky also because I was taking them
(55:19):
for emotional pain as well, and that as a you know,
I'm glad they didn't work for you. When I say that,
this video is said, well, why Jimmy bother and Rachel
Nichols inde hooked up in the hotel in the bubble.
There's a ton of proto supporties clean. So let's get
straight to another thing real quick. What's your opinion about
(55:46):
the role social media plays on journalism today? How a
story that has no confirmation, like Jimmy Butler and Rachel
Nichols married, uh kids supposedly became intimate during the NBA
bubble can go viral? How can reporters and even the
audience know how to sift through and react to an
overabundance of information that is really tough, and I'm I'm
(56:11):
actually wrestling. I'm trying to write something UM right now
related to kind of social media UM and women on it,
particularly Twitter, UM, because I know something I've noticed. I mean,
I'm talking particularly from a professional standpoint. UM. There's certain
industries where it can be really beneficial for people's careers. UM.
(56:31):
And I'm noticing women tend to be less active, and
one of the reasons is they we tend to get
a lot of betrayal sometimes. I mean I talked to
some people that have gotten like explicit rape threats, explicit
UM people. There's an Olympian right now, there's a UM
piece that just came out on her being stalked for years. UM.
(56:54):
So I get why someone would choose to be less active. Nevertheless,
I mean thinking as a journalist, it's certainly an important
part of the profession. So that's a really tricky thing.
How do people sift through what's true? I guess all
of us and myself included, but we should all probably
be more careful about what we're sharing what's the source.
(57:16):
But how reliable is that? Like I don't know anything
about what if anything happened between them? UM. But I
certainly have heard my share of women falsely accused of
sleeping with a player or just sleeping with someone whoever
(57:37):
because someone famous? What have you? Um? And and and
also like also the athlete, like he shouldn't be accused,
he I who knows? He? I think I don't. I
don't remember if he's married or not. But he shouldn't
be falsely accused and nobody should be. I don't know
what happened. Um so but um, you know I that
(58:00):
was something. I mean, even on social media. I think
when it was in one of my last year's covering baseball,
but I remember the post stories about a rod Um
coming out, and I specifically remember talking to players being like, whoa,
this is not something that people write about about marital infidelity.
(58:21):
And that's obviously changed and people do write about that now,
But I don't know that that's necessarily a good thing.
And I guess, I guess if it's you know, I
do I remember stories over the years of you know,
maybe if it was an infidelity, like say with the teammates,
(58:41):
something that's messing with you know, the team. Um, but
I don't know that. I don't know that Again, in
lesson if it's a crime, then yes, absolutely, like if
someone's a sexual assault or something. But I think rumors
about what people might be doing sexually, um, I don't.
(59:04):
I don't necessarily see the need for it. And certainly,
um there are some outlets that like to to stir
things up, and um I tend to not spend a
lot of time on them. But same here, Um cat,
what's next for you? How can our listeners follow your journey? Uh? Well,
I mean I'm not working in sports presently, so I
(59:27):
don't know if I want be the most interesting you
want to. Sometimes I think about that. I mean, it's
I've been working in fintech for six years, so I'm
not working in sports at all. But yeah, sometimes I
have thoughts of uh, you know, I mean, even as
this was about to be published, I saw, uh, like
(59:49):
so six weeks ago or something, I saw like a
really interesting job at MLB at Major League Baseball, and
I was like, I don't think I can apply for
that right now. It would be just weird. You can, well,
it's just felt weird. Um Uh, you know, I don't know.
I don't know if my journey will take me back
to sports at any point. I think you know, I
(01:00:10):
worked at ESPN for a few years on the business side, UM,
specifically the Spanish language side, like digital media, strategy, UM social.
While I was in business school, I interned at Real Madrid. UM.
I love, I love working on those partnerships. I mean,
maybe maybe the best fit is if I were to
work on sponsorships at my own current company or UM.
(01:00:33):
You know, I don't know. It's not something I'm presently
like pursuing, UM, but I wouldn't rule it out in
the in the future. Well, I know, I know if
I could see sports in your future UM. And you've
only brought Spain up six times during the interview, so
maybe something in in international baseball and all that. I think,
(01:00:59):
you know, if opportunity to present itself in like football
and and a Spaniard or you know, work I when
I was at this well tis in Spain together. When
I was at the ESPN, I got Rafa an ad
All to do the this is Sports Center commercial, So
(01:01:20):
you can just go work and the tennis league over there.
Oh that would be great. Cat Listen, I want to
thank you for your time, for your bravery and telling
your story. I want you to know that I'll always
continue to use my platform to advocate for a world
of decency and safety. Also for a world where women
are able to work in sports or anywhere with men
(01:01:42):
as equals, and be able to tell people their experiences
without fear for their safety, careers or reputations. Thank you again,
and please reach out if there's ever anything I can do.
Cat Thanks, thanks for all you do. Rex, appreciate you.
Take care. Charges seveing no Runnians with the law charges,
(01:02:03):
st Lee send the tennis and balls and charges the
celebrity gank Forums charges. We came along but from living
lawless charges. Seveing no Runnians with the law charges st
Lee send the tennis and ball as charges. The celebrity
gank forlorums. Charge We came along but from living lawless.
Charge Charges is created by Portlay and Control Media that's
(01:02:24):
produced by DV Podcasts in association with I Heart Radio.
For more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit I Heart
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Charges. That's created by Portas and Control Media. It's produced
by DV Podcasts in association with I Heart Radio. This
time a former Sons player who you might remember as
t Rex. More video in just a moment, but this
is Rex Chapman's mug sewn and we are learning a
lot more about the charge its charges. Would it surprise
(00:22):
the listeners how often a player or organization member crosses
the line. Every once in a while there might be
some comments, someone asking like what sexual positions like? Or
what are you wearing under your or your pants. I
don't regret not coming forward because there's no chance I
(00:44):
would have been believed, and there's no chance that could
have continued in my career. Zero zero Welcome to Charges.
I'm your host Rex Chapman. Today on the show, we
have a very differ for the type of guests and
a story to tell. I'm a man who has three
(01:04):
daughters and a younger sister, so this episode really strikes
a deep chord for me to help make this world
of sports a better place today than when I was playing.
I'm proud to have on former sports journalist Kat O'Brien,
who for years covered Major League Baseball, but During that time,
she held onto a secret. Cat worked at the Fort
Worth Star Telegram, Newsday, and ESPN before ultimately leaving sports journalism.
(01:30):
She was a rising star who was taken advantage of
in a despicable way by a coward of a man.
What's worse because that it was committed by one of
her peers, a professional athlete. A few weeks ago, she
wrote a piece for The New York Times and told
her story, one that she's held onto for eighteen years.
If you haven't read it, I encourage you to do
(01:52):
so before we get started. I want to read this.
One part of her piece to you, Cat writes, I
don't want this assault to be what people think of
when they think of me. I don't want pity. Being
a survivor of rape is only a tiny part of
my story. There are hundreds of things more interesting about me,
such as my passion for Spain. I've run six marathons
(02:13):
and qualified for the Boston since having a stroke. That
I've worked for several companies, the most recognized and respected
companies in the world, and that I volunteer with International
Rescue Committee. I've traveled to more than thirty countries on
my own moved abroad, learned to scuba dive in St. Lucia,
kite surf in Spain and Brazil, and have been one
(02:33):
of the few women in many spaces. I haven't lost
my optimism. Cat. What an honor it is to have
you on the show today. Thank you for being here.
(02:55):
Thanks for having me rox Um. I appreciate you're giving
me the opportunity to talk with you and reach your audience.
We'll get into everything about you, but I want to
start here. Uh, tell me about your life as a kid.
Where are you from? How were you drawn into the
world of sports. Sure, I'm from Davenport, Iowa, so quad cities,
kind of the middle of America, right on the Mississippi River.
I was the tomboy. Uh. You know, played a lot
(03:19):
of sports, did a lot of other things too, But
I didn't have any expectation to go into sports as
a career. But I really liked telling stories. I really
like journalism. I went to Notre Dame for college, which
certainly has a pretty strong sports history, and uh, I
worked for the student newspaper, which is a daily paper
(03:40):
Monday through Friday, and found covering sports to be get
a lot more attention and interest from people than covering
what professor was giving a lecture or whether a restaurant
on campus might stay open half an hour later. UM.
And so I kind of started doing more sports and
(04:02):
then I remember really clearly. Actually actually it's sad timing,
but uh, this professional track athlete Paul McMullen raced on
a in a meet on campus, and I did a
feature on him, and he he sent me a handwritten
note a couple several weeks later, after USA Today had
also done a piece, and UM, he said that my
piece was better. And I was like this year old,
(04:26):
and I was like, wow, this is really cool, this
you know athlete. UM. And sadly he actually just died
this year in an accident. UM. But he helped kind
of push me, like I'm gonna do more sports and
then you know the UM. Yeah, so those small things
that someone does can sometimes have unexpected consequences and intentions,
(04:49):
and and so you know, I focused more in sports
and the newspaper and then ended up getting an internship. UH.
The summer I graduated through the Association of Women in
Sports Media, and UH, I joined the Fort Worth Star
Telegram as an intern, thinking maybe I could get on
it like a small paper somewhere. The Star Telegram was
(05:09):
one of the top sports sections in the country, and
they ended up hiring me full time. And so that's
that's my story and how I got into sports pretty much. Look,
I gotta say, uh, my entry in the media was
tough because of my background in personal life. But I
never had to be an intern. But I got hired
coming right out of the summer. Um, actually part way
(05:30):
through the summer, I got an offer and then started
covering primarily high school sports and then also would help
out with kind of whatever or else was near the
high school sports in Texas or a big deal. We
had at the time different sections depending on which area
of the region people lived in, so you know, with
(05:51):
subscribers would get a certain edition, and UM covered a
lot of high school sports, football, basketball, baseball, try everything there,
very very very popular next level, and then would help
out with a lot of other things, especially you know,
in the summer there aren't high school high school sports,
so UM baseball. I had, you know, studied Spanish, so
(06:14):
baseball was really a particularly a natural fit because I
brought something that um, you know, most people wouldn't have
in terms of being able to speak Spanish with players.
What was your favorite part about covering baseball. I mean,
you you can get to know people really well because
they play every day. So I think you know, that
(06:37):
gives reporters a better chance to get to know players. UM.
I think that can be tougher in a big media
market like New York, for instance, because there's so many reporters.
Players maybe a little more guarded with good reason. Um,
but you know, when you're around people every day like
in Texas and there are only a handful their their
(06:59):
day in and day out. In terms of reporters, you can,
you know, potentially get a chance to get to know people.
While I think I always tried to be fair with uh,
not just players, with everyone around sport, and um, I
think that people recognize that. Most people recognize that, and UM, yeah,
so I think just the day and day out aspect
(07:20):
of it. While that can be a challenge, UM, it
also can and give you a better opportunity to know people.
As compared to football like NFL, where they're playing once
a week, a lock around maxis is super limited. Uh,
interview access is really limited. I think it's harder to
get to know the players in that space. At what
point did you have the realization, Oh, because I'm a woman,
(07:43):
this job is going to be different for me than
if I was a man. Mm hmm, that's a good question. Um.
I guess it's just sort of a gradual thing. You know.
It's like, I don't know that I thought about it
much in college. Um. You know, college your access is
more limited on a college campus as opposed to professional athletes.
(08:04):
There are a lot of comments in the atmosphere that
you deal with. Um, this is not just players, So
I'm not singling out players by any stretch. This is
just the whole atmosphere. So UM, I don't buy any
stretch things that players were more guilty of sexual harassment
or anything than other people around the sport or or
(08:29):
in life really. But um, but it is a very
male dominated atmosphere. So whether that's from you know, agents,
to coaches, to players to other reporters, UM, it's just
a reality that you deal with. I I do remember
like a few times talking to other women, but there
(08:49):
weren't a lot of other women covering baseball, So maybe
talk to another woman who was working in Dallas sport
wars but not covering baseball. Or or one of the
few women who was coming baseball if they had any tips.
Then again, you're like, twenty three, how much do you
want to bother this person who's been working in the
game for ten twenty thirty years or in the industry
(09:12):
for that long. Um. And I remember different people talking
about different approaches based on their personality, based on the
experiences they'd have, because uh, you could. I mean, two
people working in the same sport in the same sector
don't have the same experiences, so you might not have
had maybe maybe you covered a team where someone was
(09:36):
really egregious, or maybe the exact opposite, where a captain
of the team was like, hey, you don't you don't
do this, and then that person had a big positive effect. UM.
So I think, you know, dependent on the atmosphere, of course,
then it are you traveling, are you on the road? Um?
And and then personality wise, like there are people who
(09:59):
have a certain personality where they're going to react more strongly,
they're going to things are going to roll off them
more easily. And then age, I mean, if I was
I was twenty two, twenty three in my twenties the
whole time I covered baseball, so Uh, you're at the
same age or in many cases younger. Maybe then a
(10:21):
lot of the players. Um and if I had been
in my fifties, I'm sure it would be a different
one based on what you would encounter. But to based
on even now, I would probably have a different response.
I might take a little less language, but that's right,
(10:42):
say whatever you like. A lot has been made in
the last few years about locker room talk. The locker
rooms of today are very different from my era in
coverage and decency. I'm ashamed to admit that wild teammates
belittle female reporters with inappropriate conduct. I, as a young man,
(11:03):
did not step in like I should have, which makes
me complicit. The workplace is meant to be a safe
haven for all, but sadly, across sports, we're seeing a
pattern of vile behavior from the past to the president
that must be corrected. The president of l s U
says there was a quote institutional betrayal and how the
university handled accusations of sexual misconduct. This comes as an
(11:27):
outside law firm released its report of failures to address
such issues on campus. Fifteen former female employees of the
Washington Redskins have accused members of the team's front office
of sexual and verbal harassment. This and a new report
from The Washington Post. The accusations spanned from two thousand
six or two thousand nineteen and include longtime radio voice
(11:47):
Larry Michael, also director of Pro Personal Alex Santos, and
his assistant Richard Matt new report on sexual harassment in
the Dallas Mavericks basketball team, investigators have found a hostile
culture for women at the team owned by billionaire MARKQ.
Been Cuban and his Mavericks facing the bite of a
bombshell report revealing multiple instances of sexual harassment and workplaced
(12:08):
misconduct over two decades, Carolina Panthers founder and principal owner
Jerry Richardson announced his plans to sell the team at
the end of the season, amid reports he gave payouts
to four former employees to settle claims of misconduct and
racial slurs. Just five weeks after he was hired, the
Mets dismissed their general manager, Jared Porter. He was quickly
(12:30):
fired today when news of a sexting scandal went public,
and the Mets organization says it knew nothing about the
allegations until Jared Porter called them last night. They say
he told them about the disturbing claims being made against
him by a female reporter from Korea. The Mets say
he took full responsibility for his actions and expressed remorse.
(12:53):
I gotta say this, Uh, I was a teenager entering
the NBA in the late eighties, and it was right
at that time that, um, you know, ladies were coming
in the locker room and um, I you know, and
I've never talked to them about it, but I saw
Hannah Storm worked in Charlotte, and uh, she was one
(13:17):
of the first that I knew that came into the
locker room. Uh. The other was Jackie McMullin. And I witnessed,
you know, just awful things you know, take place where
you know, obviously I saw that they saw, you know,
what was happening, and just the strength that it took
(13:42):
to continue to work and thrive in that environment. So
how would you describe your professional relationship with athletes during
your career and would it surprise the listeners how often
a player or organization member or crosses the line. Um,
(14:03):
I mean I would say with the vast majority of people, UM,
for the most part, I had a good and professional relationship.
I would say most players, uh by and large, treated
me very professionally. Um. Even some said things like, oh
you know I would I would think of you like
(14:26):
a sister or something. I wouldn't want someone to treat
my sister x y Z way, and so would um.
You know, in some cases even be more cordial, where
they might have snapped at a male athlete like they
didn't want to because they didn't think they should treat
a woman that way. So UM, I would say most
(14:47):
players and most people around the game generally treated me
well and or or if not well, of the same
way they would have treated a male athlete or a reporter. Sorry.
You know, like if if someone and I'm not gonna
negatively call out anybody, but if if a certain player
known for sort of snapping at reporters snapped at me,
(15:10):
I wasn't probably because I was a woman. That was
just because hey, he was saying me like everyone else.
So you know, there's one athlete who, um was a
notorious jerke. I mean I don't if anyone said he
wasn't a jerk, I would be shocked, Like he's probably
the person you're thinking of. You're thinking of this person
(15:30):
but I'm not going to name negatively name any person. Um.
And he also he one time, like or more than
one time, I remember, purposely like basically walked around naked,
so because you know, you would try to not be
looking if someone's changing. So that one was a very
obvious one. Um. So was that him being kind of
(15:54):
a sexist jerk? Yes? Was he just a jerk in
general to almost everyone? Yes? So um so Yeah. And
then there were others who by and large would treat
me well. But every once in a while there might
be some comments, someone asking like what sexual positions like
(16:16):
or what are you wearing under your scart or your pants,
which like obviously not okay, um, but also other reporters
making jokes about such and such female reporter must be
sleeping with so and so um And I couldn't even
think how many people uh said that over time. Uh.
And given I heard it said about um a lot
(16:40):
of other women, I can only assume what was said
about almost all of them at one point or another.
So it's so sad, it really is. And when I
talked about I'm glad you said it, you know, kind
of freed me up. You know, one of my first
experiences with female in the locker room. Um, you know,
I had teammate who just kind of waited for the
(17:04):
the reporter to come in and then took off his
towel and then started, you know, using the lotion on
his legs and to you know, didn't start the interview
until that happened. Now, of course I'm calling that guy out.
Uh at nineteen and twenty and twenty one and hell,
(17:26):
maybe even thirty one, I don't know. I didn't and
that makes me feel bad. We'll be right back after
a word from our sponsors. The Department of Justice says
eighteen percent of women in the United States have been
raped at some point in their lifetime. Eighteen that's almost
(17:51):
one out of every five women, or the populations of
Washington State, Oregon, Idaho, Nevada, Montana, Wyoming, and Utah combined.
And about two thirds of victims know their attacker. So
why do you only six of cases get reported? Well,
it's complicated. Sometimes victims don't want to get the offender
(18:14):
in trouble. Sometimes they believe police can't help. But every
time a victim is dealing with some sort of trauma,
most times we think of physical, emotional, or mental trauma.
But what if I told you sexual assault victims are
also hit financially. The d o J finds that almost
(18:35):
fifty of sexual assault survivors lose their jobs who are
forced to quit. On June, Cat published an op ed
in The New York Times, and she came forward about
the rape for the first time. The piece sent shock
(18:57):
waves throughout the sports media world, but to day, none
of the league's including Major League Baseball, have acknowledged it
as a moment of reckoning. I want to ask, and
just as a starting point, I know you wrote about
what happened, and you've talked about in other interviews, but
still are you comfortable with talking about what happened? And
(19:18):
I want you to know whatever level of comfort you
have or don't have at any point, just please it's
okay too, and I'll stop and respect that. Yeah, I'll
do I'll do my best to us and so we'll
go as much as I can. I got it, Okay, thanks? Um, okay,
So if you're willing, can can we talk about the
(19:40):
day of the incident or days leading up to it
and that week you know, sort of coming to the head. Yeah, So, um,
I just uh, one player, Um, not on the team
that I covered, so I I have at no point,
although some role sluice on the internet like to think
(20:02):
they can guess who. I very specifically did not give
any clues other than saying it was not a player
on a team I covered. So UM of his name
player wanted to UH said he wanted to talk confidentially
for a story I was doing. UM. I thought that
seemed plausible. Initially suggested meeting like at a bar someplace,
(20:26):
because it was going to be after the game. UH,
so that's what would be open UM. And then he said, oh,
I don't want someone to see and know I was
talking to you. UM, can can we do it at
my hotel? And I decided yes. I was very trusting
(20:50):
and thought, sure he was talking, that seems plausible. He
doesn't want one to know, UM, and so uh so
I went to um his hotel room after the game
after I got done parting, and had you know, my
notebook and pen and recorded to you know, interview him,
(21:11):
and sat down to interview him. And it did start
as that. So there wasn't an indication when I got
there that there was any other purpose or anything else
that he was looking for. It it all seemed straightforward.
He was not wearing like no clothes or anything crazy. Um.
(21:32):
And then uh, you know, after a few minutes, he
moved to kiss me, and I was taken aback, and
It's like, what are you doing? And I'm probably not
going to like feel comfortable going into love of detail,
but he just he continued to kissed me and pushed
me towards the bed and then he did not, um stop,
(21:54):
and he did not take note for an answer, and
um and UM, I uh yeah, I UM. I never
I never told anybody until earlier this year, not a
single person, and I honestly never really thought about telling anyone.
I think there was one one or two times I
(22:15):
thought about telling a female friend, um, basically in light
of them talking about something much less egregious but but
not not great that had happened to them. And then
I felt that, um, you know, if you tell someone,
someone always tells someone. They tell their their boyfriend, they
tell their roommate, and so then I was just really
(22:38):
terrified that it was going to get out. UM. So
I never told anyone, even though, um, I think it
was the next day I was back at the ballpark,
and um, I a teammate of this players. Uh. I
could hear and see him like gesture and making saying
(23:01):
something in conjunction with the other player's name. And I
was just astonished that like, Okay, this player said clearly
he didn't say I raped her. I can't imagine they
had to have said like, oh I hooked up with
this reporter or something that made me look bad. And
(23:22):
and I remember I was so like humiliated, like, oh
my god, is everyone going to not well know this
other version of it and think this about me? Because
there's already this um kind of this perception among some
people that that female reporters are not there to um,
(23:44):
do a job, but they're there to like pick up
pick up guys or some crazy thing. It's it's something
that it's a rumor that people say. UM. And and
I always will remember that that teammate like he did,
he continued to do that every time I would see
him and he would make comments or UM, I would
(24:07):
overhear him, and I really tried to avoid him as
much as I could. UM. But that to me was
a really egregious that he continued to do that for
years that I was, you know, still covering baseball that's
just it's just heartbreaking. Um, I am so sorry. Do
you beat yourself up about trusting, about trusting because and
(24:30):
I have daughters twenty two and twenty six, and you know,
younger sister. I think about those you know, young babies,
their babies, and you know, being so trusting of somebody
who's when you look back, was meaning to do you hard? Well,
(24:51):
I mean I do, and yet I also, like, I
don't want to lose that like ability to trust people
or to believe the best in people. And I mean
I will say, like I feel like I have fought
through personal things, through things happening in the world, you see,
like just terrible things happening in the world. I have
like really fought to be like I want to be.
(25:13):
I would much rather be a glass three quarters full
person and believe the best of someone and be disappointed. Actually,
I've run a lot with the Nike Run Club and
there's this coach, coach Chris Bennett. He I can't remember
the exact wording, but he said something. I was like, Yes,
that is how I feel I would. I'm gonna totally
butcher it, but basically, I would rather think the best
(25:36):
of people and have them disappoint me than think the
worst of people and just be disappointed in life. So
I'm gonna stick with that. But yet sometimes you do
have to be a little more cautious or protective. Um So,
I yeah, I mean, I guess to get into and
(25:58):
I talked about this in my piece, but for your audience,
um so, I never ever ever thought of telling anyone.
And then uh, this this winter when uh um, Jared
Porter was fired as Matts GM, and I was reading,
even though I'm not working in sports anymore, I'm not
working in baseball, but I read things and specifically if
(26:19):
they're particularly relevant interesting, and I was reading a lot
of the coverage by people about him getting fired for
persistent sexual harassment of a female reporter. And so I'm reading,
um some just general coverage. But then women in baseball
and sports writing about, you know, their experiences. And then
(26:39):
I can remember I was sitting I actually it was
not this couch because I got a new couch, but
I was sitting here like reading and uh, brit Julie
Um from the Athletic had a peace and something that
started out the same way happened to her didn't then
the same way. Thank god, but she went to interview
a player in his tell room. UM. When she arrived, though,
(27:02):
she had um a very romantic setup and was basically
like what that like? And she turned around and left. UM.
But I read it and I just was like, oh
my god, because it's it's not as if I totally
blamed myself, but I kind of did, like I just
like put in this box over here, because I don't
(27:23):
think that I could have continued as a reporter if
I felt like that was something that was like a
danger for me. UM. And I also I don't I
don't regret not coming forward because there's no chance I
would have been believed and there's no chance I could
have continued in my career zero zero. So but anyway,
(27:44):
I read her piece and I was just like, disagree
with you. I wish I could disagree with you. Yeah,
I wish, I wish, I wish I could disagree with me.
But UM, you know, I I just I saw she
did the same thing, and I was just like, oh,
I wasn't it wasn't just me. I wasn't the only
(28:05):
like person who would fall for this. Um And And
I talked to other people, well, lots of women who
have done interviews in hotel rooms, and some who were
like it was fine, some who had a bad experience,
not only in sports, in journalism in general. UM. So yeah,
I mean we can get to that. But when my
piece came out, the volume of people who wrote to
(28:28):
me or reached out to me to say they've been
through something similar, it was just devastating, just devastating, not
only in journalism, I mean just people across the board. Yeah,
I want to ask this, um, in this type of
professional situation, did you ever even consider that someone could
do something like this? And I asked because this was
(28:48):
a crime, and most people in most jobs, certainly high
profile public public eye type jobs, don't consider that a
crime could take place at a job. I mean, I
know I had never thought about that. I no, I
mean I guess where I thought of. I remember a
(29:09):
few times, like either myself or other people I worked
with telling me to be careful in certain situations, like
you're leaving a stadium late at night by yourself. Um.
I traveled, I traveled to the Dominican Republic a few
times to do reporting. UM, And I actually remember, um
(29:30):
that it was really worried, like I do not want
something to happen to you, and um, funny enough, I
like I remember thinking, gosh, it's much more dangerous leaving
like uh Detroit or Cleveland Ballpark late at night or
the Bronx by myself than me being in a cab
(29:51):
and such in the d R. Of course, any experience
could depending, but I generally liked UM, so I would say,
just those sort of late night by yourself, UM situations
where you think, oh, should I pay extra and take
a cab rather than take you know, the subway or
something that's a certain time, but not um that it
(30:12):
might be like not that someone in the game might Yeah,
I'm sure I know the answer to this, And I
just hate, uh, you know, since you didn't tell literally
anyone afterwards. Zero chance, zero thought given to calling the police. No,
no chance. I mean, it's just it's just something that's
(30:36):
really um, you know, as I when I did decide
to write this, so after I read Britt's Peace, I
well then I told someone. Actually, like took a couple
of weeks, but I was just like having nightmares and
um couldn't sleep and was just crying a lot, and
I decided to tell someone and tell like a few
(30:58):
close friends. And then, um, I decided to write something
because even though I'm not currently a professional writer, I
did that for a bunch of years and I'm still
a writer, and I felt like I could tell my
story better than someone else could tell my story. Um,
And so I decided to And initially I was going
to publish it on medium, but as I was writing,
(31:20):
and like, I spent a few weeks kind of remembering
different things and figuring out exactly why I wanted to
say in the direction, and you know, did some research
on stats and actually only like one percent of of
rape allegations end up with the person going to jail.
(31:41):
One percent really terrible, and out of all I had
hundreds of people reach out to me. UM, somewhat higher
than that have some sort of consequence, like like they
have to pay a fine or something like that. But
in terms of actually say jail, one percent, UM, in
a a very small minority are convicted. UM. And usually
(32:04):
those there's some sort of there was a witness, there
was some sort of video camera something like that. So no,
I don't I didn't think of it, and I don't regret.
You know, that sounds terrible because you know what people
have said like, well, how is someone else going to
(32:25):
feel better about coming forward? And I'm like, they probably shouldn't.
That is terrible, but they probably shouldn't. Um. I mean,
God bless and and more power to every person who
does come forward, because I cannot imagine actually how difficult.
I mean. I read stories of people who faced challenges
at challenges as a very nice way to put it
(32:47):
at the um hands of police or people investigating. UM. Yeah,
the only there was almost out of the hundreds of
people who wrote to me that it was like two
people that had some sort of actual consequences for the
person they accused. One UM, there were other people it
(33:10):
was like an abuser at a camp UM and and
but there were no criminal consequences, but he lost his job.
And then one where the person was convicted UM serves
zero jail time but had to pay the person's legal
offense legal expenses. So that's not to say that's there
are people that do face more consequences, but it's it's difficult.
(33:36):
In your piece for The Times, Cat, you wrote that
you went home and tried to numb your sadness and rage. UM.
I can only imagine what you or anybody else is
feeling at that time. How did you deal with those feelings?
I think I just tried to ignore them as best
(33:59):
I could, and um yeah, I mean I um yeah,
just to kind of like pretend as if it didn't
had never happened. I wasn't a dres and successful in that.
I mean I talked about there was a player who
UM said things. I remember because I knew like this
(34:19):
player had was saying things um the teammate. I remember
a few times where uh say, I was applying for
a job, or I got contacted about a job or
later you know, I got my m b A and
I stayed in sports but on the business side, and
I applied for jobs in Major League Baseball at UM
a couple of teams. I remember interviewed with the Red
(34:41):
Sox at one point, and I just remember being like
terrified that executive was going to find out, which is
really so crazy because I'm worried that someone's going to
find out that someone committed a crime against me. Um.
But I don't think I was wrong to think that
because and that that's that's honestly one of the reasons
(35:05):
I decided to come forward. Now, even though I like
I can't prove I never told anyone. There's nothing, but
if someone else is telling a false story about you,
all that has had years to accumulate. I just felt like,
if if I'm going to tell my true story and
(35:26):
UM that way, if for some reason, I don't know,
if I ever decided to go back to the sports sector,
because honestly, I was really good at working in sports,
and UM, I could go back into that space at
some point if I decide to. UM, I my story
is out there, as opposed to just someone else's story.
It's beautiful. You know. I want to pause here and
(35:47):
acknowledge nothing too. By the way, you know, none of
this was your fault. Uh. You know you're having to
talk about something that was done to you. You're not
by you. And in a better society, it would be
the person who did this, who committed this horrific crime
and would be forced to deal with it and talk
about it and face repercussions from it. And I just
want to say, Kat, thank you, thank you for your
(36:08):
bravery for doing this. We'll be right back after a
word from our sponsors. After the first few days of
Olympic competition, we've already seen American exceptionalism at its best,
with first ever wins in some events and repeated medals
(36:29):
in others, but we've also taken a few losses, the
biggest allowing an athlete who has had multiple sexual assault
accusations to compete on the world's biggest stage. Days after
fencer Alan Hetzik joined the Olympic team, six women fencers
filed formal complaints of sexual misconduct to the US Center
for Safe Sport, the nonprofit agency responsible for protecting athletes
(36:51):
from abuse. Yet instead of taking these complaints seriously once again,
they were dismissed. Faster than shake. Harry Richardson was dismissed
for taking performance enhancing drugs. You would say fencing took
it a step further and created the most insulting safety
plan to protect women on the team. Had sick, was
required to take a separate plane to Tokyo, stay thirty
(37:13):
minutes away from the Olympic village in his own hotel,
and practice away from all women. With sports now being
seven three billion upon billion dollar industry, there are still
often heartwarming stories that take center stage. But as we've
(37:34):
seen from coverage on the Olympics and even Major League Baseball,
there is nowhere to hide when the line is crossed.
The only hope these cowards have is to hope and
hide behind those they've wrong in hopes that they stay silent.
What was your perception of a Major League Baseball locker
(37:54):
room culture and could that have created conditions for such
a horrible will act, you know, to be encouraged or
even or excused? You know, I think it can, But
I also think like societal things can, so I don't
think that baseball or any league can solve these problems
(38:16):
on their own. And I also don't think that one
act can be um say that you can say that's
because of x y z or that's the result of
someone failing to do x y z. UM. So that's
why I really tried in my piece to say, Okay,
there was this one really really terrible thing that happened,
(38:38):
but there was also a lot of there are a
lot of things less egregious, but that we're an everyday
thing and so when you deal with them every day,
that can in some be just as challenging, um depending
depending they can um so, uh are there things baseball
(38:58):
can do, teams can do to educate players and team
officials and frankly kin media outlets educate their own members. Yes,
uh is that going to run everything? Absolutely not. So
I do think that there are things that can be
done to kind of reduce the amount of um, you know,
(39:21):
sexual comments, harassment, things like that, um and hopefully you know,
even more stories coming out will make it less likely
that some of those things happen. I think also steps
taken by other people who overhear it. So not an
official thing, but um, if everyone moves one or two
(39:43):
steps uh more to like the side of good, I
can say that, but that could make a huge difference.
So maybe, Okay, you're probably not going to get someone
who is currently committing sexual assault or rape to become
just this speacon of of uh supporting women, at least
not in the near term, but maybe they become less egregious.
(40:07):
Maybe someone who would never consider assaulting someone but uh,
you know, laughs about sexual harassment, maybe they don't laugh atter.
Or maybe the person who doesn't even laugh about it,
but stays silent when they hear a joke says, hey,
actually that's not that funny. So I think those like
micro steps can um may sound silly, but I think
(40:30):
that they can make a big difference over time. Yeah,
when you decided to go forward and not report the perpetrator. Uh,
from what you've said in other interviews, that was a
decision you made because you were aware of how these
things normally go, and you touched on it a little
bit earlier. Um. Have you encountered with those ladies that
(40:53):
have written you, uh any success stories where they've they're
perpetrator has faced significant repercussions. Um so not really no, Um,
I mean their story is of course like that exists
in the world. Um Uh More, I feel like I've
(41:17):
become even more saddened by kind of I mean, there
are any number of stories is happening right now. There's
I mean there's obviously the accusations against Trevor Bauer. Um
with the Dodgers. There's a fencer right now in the
Olympics who has so many sexual assault allegations against him, which,
by the way, my my dear friend Melissa Cigara is
(41:38):
one of the reporters on that. Um, he has these allegations,
his whole team doesn't want him to be there. They
had to fly him on a different plane. Like that
means these are there's some legit, you know, there's a
lot behind these allegations. It's not one person, and so
that just kind of makes me sad that like, Okay,
well we care, and yet someone's not in the Olympics
(42:01):
because she tested positive for marijuana. Look, I know, I
know there are rules, but we have to bend over
backwards to have this person be an alternate who has
and he's an alternate. He's an alternate because you're going, well,
he must be really good, no, not good enough to
not be an alternate at this point apparently, and they're
giving him the benefit of the So, I mean, there
(42:23):
was of all the people who wrote to me, uh,
I would say that the first week after my peace
came out, I was it was really overwhelming. Just look
I had I heard from hundreds of people who I
know who care about me, reached out to support, be supportive. UM.
There were some you know, trolls on the Internet and
(42:43):
such that like say you're lying and whatever. But what
was really the most devastating were hearing from so many people.
I heard from complete strangers. I heard from friends, acquaintances, relatives, colleagues,
people I went to school with, UM, other reporters, all
(43:04):
of whom said like they either were sexually assaulted or raped,
some more than once in their life. And it was
just so sad to here and it made me really think,
like every single one of these people, in some way, smaller, big,
no matter how strong or resilient whatever, has been negatively
affected by this, Every single one and some in you know,
(43:28):
life alterin ways that they have never been able to
people spiral and uh, you know, I've listened to some
of your podcasts and people talk about, you know, one
terrible thing happened that ended up caused them to spiral.
And um, so every single one of the person who
has been sexually assaulted or raped has had negative consequences
(43:49):
in their life. And think about how much better we
as a society could be if each of those people
us be we people. I guess I didn't have that burden,
Like what could each of those people have accomplished? What
heights could they have reached? And that's true not just
it's also true of you know, of racism, of bigotry,
(44:10):
of all kinds of things, but they're thinking about that
one aspect of the sexual assault, sexual harassment. We could
be so much better as a world if everyone, you know,
could reach their full full potential preach on can you
look back now and see did you like pour yourself
into your job or into running marathons or you know,
(44:31):
did you exercise? How did you cope? I mean I
definitely was very focused on my job. I definitely did
not date really at all for a few years, I
would say, like really until I moved to New York
for the most part. Um I so I I mean
(44:52):
psychologists could probably say there's you know, you're avoiding um,
potential dangerous situations or or physically or psychiogically like, um, yeah.
I mean it's also easy to at the time be like, oh,
of course I'm working. Well, I mean I'm I was
(45:13):
covering baseball, I'm traveling a hundred eighty days a year
for work. I I worked nights and weekends. So it's
pretty easy to be like, oh, I don't have time
to date, because that's you have to make time for it. Um.
But yeah, I think I was pretty focused on my
my job, and you know I was. I was at
the time in like covering high schools and helping out
(45:35):
with baseball and other sports. And then I became the
second baseball writer, um, like a few months a year later,
and then for the start telling room, I had two
baseball writers, and I became the lead baseball writer, and
then I moved to New York and covered the Yankees
for Newsday. So um, so yeah. I stayed covering baseball
(45:55):
until two thousand nine, when I left to go get
my m b A. So um. I guess probably was
continued to be very career focused. Um, not that I'm
not anymore, but it's certainly not the only thing in
my life. Right, We'll be right back after a word
(46:17):
from our sponsors. Respected former sports journalist Cat O'Brien, in
an opinion piece for The New York Times, kept me
this public for the first time that she was raped
by a Major League baseball player in two thousand two.
She was just twenty two at the time. She was
a year out of college, and she says she never
(46:39):
reported what happened because she was afraid of the backlash.
She writes that it was quote a trauma that had
been living inside me for eighteen years. Eighteen years, two
years old. This could have happened to your loved one. Unfortunately,
(47:03):
possibly it has, whether you know it or not. Those
who use their positions of power for sexual impropriety. Your
day of reckoning is upon you. We are seeing it
in industries and in countries around the globe. We almost
do our best to protect those in need. And if
you are a loved one needs to hear this. Share
(47:23):
your voice. I support you, speak your truth. It sounds
strange to say this, but what are the positives you
hope will come from you adding your voice to this
issue of Yeah, sexual assault, but also the problem of
women not feeling believed or safe to report their sexual assaults. Yeah.
(47:49):
So I had kind of three things in mind. Basically
that I hope one that some other people. It's been
mostly women, but I have heard from some and um
would uh either feel comfortable coming forward, whether publicly, or
would at least seek help from friends or or support
(48:10):
um or at least not blame themselves. So somehow that
people would find comfort. And a lot of people have
written to me. Some have written to me that told
me they don't like only told one of their persons,
So I do think that it's had some positive effect
in that way. UM. Secondly, this one is the one
that I think the jury is out on. I hope
(48:32):
and hope that some leagues and or teams not because
isn't just a baseball problem by any stretch. UM might
do some things to make less likely the general air
of sexual harassment. This can also be media outlets, by
the way, but do leagues MLB but also other leagues
(48:53):
or individual teams put in place more education, more awareness
of sexual assault, sexual harassment, all of it. UM. So
you can't prevent all of it, you definitely can't, but
you can make it less likely. I mean, I mentioned
piece there was one time, only one time that I
ever spoke up UM and I was I really didn't
(49:14):
want to, and I but I felt like something had
kind of there was a evolution where something was getting worse,
players were feeling comfortable to do something, and I ended
up saying something and the team was super supportive and uh,
and so that was it was Brian Cashman like, thank you.
(49:36):
He was super on the ball, UM like very much. So,
So you know, things like that I think can help
so with management if teams, if player leadership are are
UM not accepting. So that's one thing though that I
hope more teams in leagues. I think there's more that
can be done there. I know there's more that can
(49:56):
be done there has Major League Baseball done anything as
a group at all to do that, And I want
to say that I don't know that NBA has or
the NFL has either. I know that all the leagues
have some sort of at least minimal training or education.
I don't know all the ins and outs. I haven't heard.
(50:17):
I talked to one person from Major League Baseball really
not on a official matter. I haven't heard from them
in an official capacity. I don't know of any specifics
of statement to CNN when I went on CNN, um,
and I did hear from one person there? Um I
(50:37):
think I also, I mean I heard from a couple
of managers and coaches who I know in the league.
I heard from one player, and that's yeah. It's so
one person working for the league to people who have
been coaches or managers on teams like or or executives
on teams I covered, and one player total, So that
(51:00):
that actually was surprising and disappointing to me, because there
are players who have kept in touch with over the years,
at least sporadically that I would have thought would say
something reach out. But and then the last thing, the
last one that I hope would have an impact. This
is one that literally every one of us can do.
(51:21):
So I talked about this earlier, but just those like
little stuffs, micro changes. I mean. I I mentioned in
my piece that the first two guys people I'm close
to that I told about this, um, they both were like,
oh my god, that's so awful. Support you believe you.
But they also were like, but you couldn't get away,
and uh, one in any situation, someone can't always get away.
(51:45):
But then on top of it, you're talking about a
professional athlete who is one professional athlete but also outweighed
me by a lot. So to have two people who
are really close to you say that, just that chip
of awareness. But even on a broader level, like I said,
jokes when someone around you is making a joke about
(52:05):
sexual harassment or or that like oh all women x
y Z just being a little more cognizant. Look. I
would love to never have to ever talk about this.
I would love to never have to like raise awareness
to share awful stories. I would love for never happen
because and recently especially as like since this has come out,
(52:26):
and you know, if I see a story, I might
like retweet it or I share it and I don't
want that, Like, that is not the thing I want
to talk about life. There's so many other things I
care about, So just stop doing it and then none
of us will have to talk about it, like really, yeah,
you know. And I'm gonna tell you something that that
um Rick Pettino told me once he was I had
(52:48):
had a um I was had a painkiller issue for
many years, if you didn't know, and um I was
in rehab and he came to see me and I said, listen,
nobody's ever gonna want to talk to me anymore. He said,
You're gonna be fine. I said, I'm toxic, nobody you know.
And he said, Rex, your story is going to help
a lot of people. And I said, this isn't my
fucking story. Through tears, I understand. Two weeks later I
(53:13):
had to accept, or a month later, two years later,
it's my story and it's just going to be part
of my story. And I say that to say this
that I can't imagine the pain not only during and
when you were young, but that you've carried all these years.
(53:33):
And I don't know that there's ever a perfect time,
but in this climate we're in, you're gonna help so
many people because I think you're gonna you are going
to empower other women, other reporters. Um, it's not just women,
you know, uh, to to share their stories. So I
(53:54):
hope so and yeah and thanks for thanks for that.
And you know, I want to say on on that No, well,
I definitely had the same reaction. I don't want this
to be my story. But I guess we don't always
get to choose what, um might be part of our story.
But on the you know, the opioid addiction, I feel
so grateful. So I, Um, I mentioned that I had
(54:16):
a concussion that led to a stroke. Um, I knew
about the stroke. Yeah, the month after I graduated from Warton,
I got sick on airplane. Um, they found me unconscious.
I'd hit my head. It caused me to have I'd
never had a migraine. I had a migraine for almost
two years and not caused a stroke. But I am
really grateful that I never and lucky that I did
(54:37):
not develop an opiate addiction because I was taking like
I was taking like purcose at oxygen and it actually
did it actually didn't even barely touch the pain. I
was in that much pain. So maybe because it didn't
help me that much. I didn't get but but in
knowing how easy it can be, you know, just by
(54:59):
the wrong luck. I've heard so many stories, So I'm
glad that you were able to get off. But I'm
I'm you know, I'm fortunate that I didn't um because
because I was having to take those for pain. Yeah,
And you know, also I looked back and I was
taking them. You're lucky also because I was taking them
(55:19):
for emotional pain as well, and that as a you know,
I'm glad they didn't work for you. When I say that,
this video is said, well, why Jimmy bother and Rachel
Nichols inde hooked up in the hotel in the bubble.
There's a ton of proto supporties clean. So let's get
straight to another thing real quick. What's your opinion about
(55:46):
the role social media plays on journalism today? How a
story that has no confirmation, like Jimmy Butler and Rachel
Nichols married, uh kids supposedly became intimate during the NBA
bubble can go viral? How can reporters and even the
audience know how to sift through and react to an
overabundance of information that is really tough, and I'm I'm
(56:11):
actually wrestling. I'm trying to write something UM right now
related to kind of social media UM and women on it,
particularly Twitter, UM, because I know something I've noticed. I mean,
I'm talking particularly from a professional standpoint. UM. There's certain
industries where it can be really beneficial for people's careers. UM.
(56:31):
And I'm noticing women tend to be less active, and
one of the reasons is they we tend to get
a lot of betrayal sometimes. I mean I talked to
some people that have gotten like explicit rape threats, explicit
UM people. There's an Olympian right now, there's a UM
piece that just came out on her being stalked for years. UM.
(56:54):
So I get why someone would choose to be less active. Nevertheless,
I mean thinking as a journalist, it's certainly an important
part of the profession. So that's a really tricky thing.
How do people sift through what's true? I guess all
of us and myself included, but we should all probably
be more careful about what we're sharing what's the source.
(57:16):
But how reliable is that? Like I don't know anything
about what if anything happened between them? UM. But I
certainly have heard my share of women falsely accused of
sleeping with a player or just sleeping with someone whoever
(57:37):
because someone famous? What have you? Um? And and and
also like also the athlete, like he shouldn't be accused,
he I who knows? He? I think I don't. I
don't remember if he's married or not. But he shouldn't
be falsely accused and nobody should be. I don't know
what happened. Um so but um, you know I that
(58:00):
was something. I mean, even on social media. I think
when it was in one of my last year's covering baseball,
but I remember the post stories about a rod Um
coming out, and I specifically remember talking to players being like, whoa,
this is not something that people write about about marital infidelity.
(58:21):
And that's obviously changed and people do write about that now,
But I don't know that that's necessarily a good thing.
And I guess, I guess if it's you know, I
do I remember stories over the years of you know,
maybe if it was an infidelity, like say with the teammates,
(58:41):
something that's messing with you know, the team. Um, but
I don't know that. I don't know that Again, in
lesson if it's a crime, then yes, absolutely, like if
someone's a sexual assault or something. But I think rumors
about what people might be doing sexually, um, I don't.
(59:04):
I don't necessarily see the need for it. And certainly,
um there are some outlets that like to to stir
things up, and um I tend to not spend a
lot of time on them. But same here, Um cat,
what's next for you? How can our listeners follow your journey? Uh? Well,
I mean I'm not working in sports presently, so I
(59:27):
don't know if I want be the most interesting you
want to. Sometimes I think about that. I mean, it's
I've been working in fintech for six years, so I'm
not working in sports at all. But yeah, sometimes I
have thoughts of uh, you know, I mean, even as
this was about to be published, I saw, uh, like
(59:49):
so six weeks ago or something, I saw like a
really interesting job at MLB at Major League Baseball, and
I was like, I don't think I can apply for
that right now. It would be just weird. You can, well,
it's just felt weird. Um Uh, you know, I don't know.
I don't know if my journey will take me back
to sports at any point. I think you know, I
(01:00:10):
worked at ESPN for a few years on the business side, UM,
specifically the Spanish language side, like digital media, strategy, UM social.
While I was in business school, I interned at Real Madrid. UM.
I love, I love working on those partnerships. I mean,
maybe maybe the best fit is if I were to
work on sponsorships at my own current company or UM.
(01:00:33):
You know, I don't know. It's not something I'm presently
like pursuing, UM, but I wouldn't rule it out in
the in the future. Well, I know, I know if
I could see sports in your future UM. And you've
only brought Spain up six times during the interview, so
maybe something in in international baseball and all that. I think,
(01:00:59):
you know, if opportunity to present itself in like football
and and a Spaniard or you know, work I when
I was at this well tis in Spain together. When
I was at the ESPN, I got Rafa an ad
All to do the this is Sports Center commercial, So
(01:01:20):
you can just go work and the tennis league over there.
Oh that would be great. Cat Listen, I want to
thank you for your time, for your bravery and telling
your story. I want you to know that I'll always
continue to use my platform to advocate for a world
of decency and safety. Also for a world where women
are able to work in sports or anywhere with men
(01:01:42):
as equals, and be able to tell people their experiences
without fear for their safety, careers or reputations. Thank you again,
and please reach out if there's ever anything I can do.
Cat Thanks, thanks for all you do. Rex, appreciate you.
Take care. Charges seveing no Runnians with the law charges,
(01:02:03):
st Lee send the tennis and balls and charges the
celebrity gank Forums charges. We came along but from living
lawless charges. Seveing no Runnians with the law charges st
Lee send the tennis and ball as charges. The celebrity
gank forlorums. Charge We came along but from living lawless.
Charge Charges is created by Portlay and Control Media that's
(01:02:24):
produced by DV Podcasts in association with I Heart Radio.
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