October 19, 2021 • 51 mins
For the seventeenth episode of Charges, Rex brings John Amaechi on the show to talk about his past NBA career and the secret that he kept. Rex & John discuss: Not being a sports fans & the toxicity of the leagues, being introduced to basketball at 17 on the street & not playing sports growing up, his journey to America & writing hundreds of of letters to colleges to get there, moving to Toledo, getting advice from his coach & his mother's cancer diagnosis, being a gay man in the NBA & hiding it, the world of race in sports, the role of sports in society, becoming a psychologist & more. This episode is not to be missed!
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Charges. That's created by por Delays and Control Media. It's
produced by dB Podcasts in association with I Heart Radio.
This time a former Son's player who you might remember
as t Rex. More video in just a moment, but
this is Rex Chapman's mug Shaun, and we are learning
a lot more about the charge up. Charging. You're a
(00:21):
gay man at a time when it's not accepted. Forget
pro sports, it's not even accepted in daily light in
most parts of the country. You know, in Utah, people
knew I was gay in the organization and they did
not like it at all from the daftings. But basketball
six years later, I was in the league. Some of
the sports and the sports league don't deserve a love.
(00:42):
Sports over promises and underdelivers. Welcome to Charges. I'm your host,
Rex Chapman. Today on the show we have John Amici.
Some of you guys are going to have to dig
deep in your mind for why that name rings a bell.
Maybe it's because John was the first person from England
(01:02):
or the United Kingdom to make it to the NBA.
Or maybe you're a fan of Penn State, where John
was at two time academic All American, or maybe it's
because after his professional career ended, John told the world
his truth. He's gay, and he played basketball at the
highest level as a gay man in the mid nineties
in early two thousands. And then John did what so
(01:24):
many athletes struggled to do. Hell, what I've struggled to do.
He retired, he moved on, he got involved with another passion,
and here he is now a decorated psychologist and one
of the smartest, most considerate people I've come across. Let
alone to lace up some sneakers or trainers as they're
called in England and be a part of the NBA brotherhood.
This his charges. John. It's an honor to have you
(01:56):
on the show today. Thank you for being here. It's
an absolute pleasure. Um. I'm sure that I'm not the
first to say this, but sometimes you post the usual
Dawa stuff that we all need to see. But sometimes
you post these timeline cleanses that are like, this is
saving me right now, this is saving me. So thank you. Yeah,
that's amazing, John. Normally on this show, UH, athletes have
(02:20):
face charges either from the law or court of public opinion.
What are the charges you've faced from the court of
public opinion? Well, everything from being just intrinsically sinful, uh,
full of myself, uh, pseudo intellectual um uppity. Okay, this
(02:44):
is this is just my small list of this. Yeah,
I get it. I get it. You've I don't know
if I want to sit down with you in therapy,
Uh where you're diagnosing me? My goodness, let's start here.
I've seen and heard you say this in other interviews. Uh,
you're not a sports fan. No, I really appreciate, so
(03:05):
I hope people can make this distinction. I really appreciate
when I see people do remarkable stuff, whether it's Simone
Biles and you watch her spinning mid air and land.
You know. I don't know about you, but I went
nowadays walking downstairs. There's a bit of a challenge for me,
so I went when I see that, but I recognize
intrinsically something amazing. I've been a part of something called
(03:27):
the Activity Alliance in the UK, which is a charity
that works with people with disabilities who participate in sports
or physical activity. And I remember this has got to
be nearly twenty years ago, when I uh was still
in the league, and I was I I think so anyway,
and I watched a young man, severely disabled young man
(03:48):
in an electric wheelchair with a bean bag, and they
have a bean bag throw is part of the competition.
And I remember watching and I was still at a
stage when I was probably stupid enough and young enough
to I don't know, to not care about people who
I didn't think we're real sports people. And then suddenly
I did like a double take on this this kid's face,
and I realized it's the same face that you see
(04:10):
on court. It's the same face. So I really appreciate
excellence in sport. My problem is that that some of
the fandom creates a real toxicity, and also some of
the sports and the sports league don't deserve our love.
They overpromise and underdeliver in a way that is so
(04:32):
epic that only weight loss drugs companies are probably ahead
of them. Yeah yeah, man, tell me how a non
sports fan who grows up in England becomes the first
Englishman to ever play in the NBA. I was stopped
on the street. And I don't think this is an
uncommon thing. It's an uncommon thing in the United Kingdom
to be stopped on the street to play basketball. But
(04:52):
I was stopped on the street by a man whose
name I do not know, and I don't know who
it was. And the different in that moment in my
life is remarkable because if you'd have asked me if
I wanted to play basketball, I would have laughed at
him sweating. I was seventeen years old when this happened.
I started playing basketball at seventeen and a half. You
hadn't picked up a basketball until then, really, no, no, no,
(05:15):
no no. I ate pie and read books. I ate
pie and read box. That was my So he he
saw your size you had gotten. How tall were you
at the time. I was probably six seventh Okay, wow,
so I got big real quick, and you know, it's
pretty much my I'm six nine now. Well I'm getting
short of now, but I'm as tall as I was,
almost as tall as I was going to be. And
(05:36):
he he didn't ask me if I wanted to play,
because I would have said no. He didn't even tell
me I should play. I always hate it when people
tell other people what they should do, because what they
really mean is you know what you're good for. But
he said he would be great a basketball and I
remember being absolutely incredulous. On the street in Manchester Market
street in Manchester, just being incredulous that somebody who was
(05:58):
a stranger had told me I could be eight. And
I was like, all right then, I mean such an
idiot because I ended up in a gym horrible Jim
in Chorlton with the backboards posted pasted onto the wall.
Something you took upon yourself to do what you heard that.
Had you played other sports? Had you played no, no, no.
(06:19):
My living was bringing in forged notes. My mom was
a doctor g P bringing in forged notes, saying John
can't do pe today. That was my life. I hated it.
I hated sweating physical activity. But I got in that
gym and fifteen or so strangers in that gym when
(06:40):
I walked in, ran towards me, grabbed me by the
arms and we're fighting over whose team who would get me?
Even when I was I was terrible. Obviously, you know
every big who walks in off the street, nobody's got
that much. I shot my first shot. Somebody told me
to shoot it, and I was like, what shoot it?
And so is put throw that in there? So I
(07:02):
threw it up. I missed by about six ft and somebody,
some kid on the team just just yelled out, that's
his first shot and he only missed by six ft
And I was like, who wouldn't want to live as
I was like at the end of that session, I said,
I'm never leaving this place and that's why I wanted
(07:23):
to play basketball. And when they told me, I told
him about the NBA. That day we were sat down
at the end of training. They started talking about the
NBA and I was like, what's that say? It's the
best league in the world. They said, well, what does
it mean? And the National Basketball Association? Cool, and listen,
it's in America. And I immediately thought, if I could
have this good feeling around people, but do it in
the sunshine, wouldn't that be great? And that's the start
(07:47):
of my NBA journey. I want to do what this
feeling but in Los Angeles, I can't even begin to
express to you all how incredible John of mechs. In
the history of the NBA, there's only been a little
over forty players. The odds of making it into the
league for anyone, let alone someone who picked up the
(08:08):
game at age seventeen, are right next to impossible. John's
journey from a young man who didn't play sports to
an adult who doesn't like sports but was a professional
basketball player in the NBA fraternity is so marvelous and
miraculous that it could be a movie. While some see
sports as an escape, the difference with John was that
for him it meant acceptance as a young six ft
(08:31):
eight black man amongst boys. So you just you felt
accepted by a group of people for the first time. Yeah,
because mostly when I when you know, when I walked
down the street even now, I mean I'm fairly regularly
(08:51):
stopped in searching in the United Kingdom. Um, but even then,
when I walked down the street, the number one reaction
to me was terror. Even as a geek key, you know,
thick glasses wearing kid who has usually had a pie
in his hand and books, people were terrified of me.
And yet in this place, you know, most of the
(09:12):
people in my school thought I was thick. Assumed if
I'm a big black kid, the only black kid in
my school, I must be thick. And so you get
into this new environment and everybody thinks you've got potential.
It's intoxicating. You were a great student, though, right always?
Or what did you put forth the effort? So I
(09:35):
was I was very um. Let me see, my mother
was very dedicated to me being a great student, and
I love to learn. But what's interesting, and nobody cares
about this, this is I'm taking a nerd, right, But um,
there's this weird thing where people misunderstand that being thrilled
by learning is not necessarily measured in education. And so
(10:01):
I did quite well at the O levels, which is
the up to sixteen A level. I did catastrophically badly
because what I'm not good at is regurgitating learned information.
What I'm great at is the integration of ideas to
come up with a decent solution, or at least contributing
to a decent solution. So actually, not even undergraduate, but
(10:22):
graduate school really suited me because that's what it was,
figuring things out. That's amazing. Tell me more about what
you remember about your early years with your mom um.
I I she was amazing. I always tell people that
my mom was better than their mom um. The best
way I can describe it is that most people have
(10:44):
had the experience of those lovely, high pressure, cool days
where the sun shining and it's not so bright, so
you can kind of close your eyes and look towards
the sun, and it feels like your whole brain is
being illuminated by the lights. That's what talking to my
mother was like. Everything she talked to you, it was
(11:07):
like your whole brain was being warmed and illuminated by
the sun, even when she was yelling at you. It
gives me chills. The way you speak, the way it
appears your mind works. It comes from somewhere. And you
describing your mother like that, just know that there's some
of that in there. Obviously obviously, Uh you said basketball
(11:33):
gave you acceptance for being big, for being black, you
know all of it. How important is that acceptance not
only for you in your life, but in everyone's life.
I think where you feel at home, where you where
you can find a place where you aren't spending parts
of your energy to protect yourself is amazing. I know
(11:56):
that you will understand this, perhaps from a different aspective,
but we've all been in positions where we've had to
hide or protect parts of our identity and it takes energy. People,
and so there's only a finite amount of energy. People
love this, especially in sports. We love this stupid idea
of a hundred and ten percent. It's like, no, sometimes
there is just a percent of something and not more
(12:19):
than that. And so if two percent of it is
being used to kind of protect you from those people
who say cruel things, and another two percents being used
because the coach has the wrong style or or treat
you with disrespect, and another two percent because you're worried
about your family at home, and another two percent another
whatever percent because you're gay and nobody knows about it,
whatever it is, you suddenly realize the end. And in
(12:41):
most workplaces you can get by. But when you're one
of the you know, supposedly top three odd people in
the world, it's something you kind of need, like on
a bad day, and especially as me, because let's face it,
you were a player. You are a legend, and I
am a former player, but not a legend, right, I'm not.
(13:05):
This is not humble, This is just practical. Let's just
be practical. And so I bring other things to the
table nowadays. And I brought other things to the table
when I was there, and I had a couple of
great years, but you know, not my on my best day,
I still needed to bring otherwise I would get squashed.
(13:26):
I understand that completely, and Honestly, I bounced around the league.
I wasn't an all star type player every year. I
understand exactly what you're talking about. And what was weird
for me is you know, any secret that I had
or part of my identity that I hid, you know,
over an amount of time over my life. Once I
(13:48):
started talking and those I let out those parts, you
know what, I felt uneasy, like I didn't know what
to do with out the secret or I'm sure you've
gone through that, right. It builds a gravity. Secrets have gravity,
and when you start to let go of it, it
(14:11):
feels like you're spiraling away from from something incredibly familiar,
even if that familiar is bad. You know, one of
the things that people don't realize about why change is
so hard. It's not actually about the difficulty of going
from something good to something better. It doesn't. It's not
even about the difficulty in going through something good to
something worse. Any change from your status quo will be unwelcome,
(14:34):
at least initially until you wrap your finder us. Yeah, yeah,
brilliant Dachi take go with a skin absolutely indo. He's
so big, it's so strong, and he's got such a
soft shot Michigan shot sent in the first half, John A.
Mici Mrs gets the foot back. Then State with Michigan regroup,
(14:58):
Michi strong inside or all to part room to AMGI.
He had twenty six and Maji spent two years and
stadium was tipped for the draft when the end wasn't picked.
Then just before the started last season, he got a
call from the Cleveland Cavaliers. The dream had come true.
Let's talk about becoming a professional athlete for a second
in the mid nineties in America. How did how did
(15:19):
you do that? How did you end up in the league?
I wrote three thousand letters to America UM when I
was seventeen from that day, that day that the man
approached you and this set you on track and you
had you had a focus at that point, right. Oh yeah.
I want to be clear. When I left the gym
(15:40):
after my first hour and fifteen minutes session in basketball,
having missed taken and missed one shot zero percent. That
sitting down in that gym with my new teammates, who
I already decided with my teammates now they talked about
the NBA. It was there they said, this is the NBA,
It's the best place in the world. I said, yeah,
(16:02):
I'm going to do that. That's what I told them
right there. And then what's interesting is that each of
them they said, of course you are, but not like
in a sake sarcasm way, in a legitimate yeah, of
course you are. So that's what started me off. Then
I had to find a way to get to America.
We went to a bookshop in London that had the
(16:22):
Fulbright Commission is you might be familiar with it, used
to do all kinds of exchanges and things like that.
But they had this book with all the high schools
in America in it. Because don't forget this is I
don't know eighty something and so it wasn't in an
internet or email time. And I got this book and
I simply went through. I knew there were too many
in that I just went through every couple of pages,
(16:43):
stuck a pen on the page whatever the dot was
that was. So there was this place in Roanoke, Virginia
that I wrote of this high school in Roano, Virginia.
I wrote a letter to um Toledo, Ohio. Quite a
few other places I wrote the same letter high coach.
My name is John M. G. I am six ft nine,
black and English and I want to play on your team,
(17:07):
something along about sirs lines. I expected to be inundated
and was not. I got three replies, UM, two of
which were knows. One of them like, why would you
bother right? But two of them were knows. One of
them was from a very famous high school in New Jersey,
UM where they said, we're the winning this school in
(17:28):
New Jersey. We don't need foreign talent. And then one
of them was from Telit, Ohio, and they said, if
you're serious, you're willing to work, we'll give you a goal.
So I went to Toledo, Ohio. That, by the way,
I just want to point out that blew my idea
of America out of the water. Don't don't don't forget that.
I knew America from night Rider in the eight That
(17:51):
was that was what I knew. The sun always shines,
but it shines in a really reasonable way. And I
got to Ohio in the middle of summer and nearly
died when I off the plane. I couldn't believe how
hot it was. Then people started talking to me, and
I realized that Americans don't speak English speak Americans, like,
what do you what do you think? So I spent
(18:12):
my first three weeks just nodding and smiling at people,
trying to figure out what the hell is going on
around But such a generous group of people. Were you?
Were you any good at this point? No? I mean,
I mean, I mean I thought I was a two
god X. I thought I was a two god. I
didn't like contact and I like to shoot threes. But John,
(18:36):
at within a year or two, you're able to compete
on the college level and not just compete, stand out.
That's where I started watching you. I actually you know,
I'm an SEC guy Kentucky all that. I remembered you
at Vandy and then did you you sat out a year? Yes,
(18:56):
because you showed back up at Penn State and we're
killing it. And so I don't understand. You know, it's
like a guy going from hitting fourteen home runs one
season to hitting seventy eight the next year. I just
don't understand how you were able to progress. Was it?
I'm sure your brain helped obviously, but you had to
(19:20):
fall in love somewhat with getting in shape and staying
in shaping you. No, I I lament most mornings. I
miss being in shape. You know, you look pretty in
shape right now, but I am not. And I lament
those days when you could just be on a you know,
when you be on a treadmill next to one of
(19:41):
your teammates, you just be talking. You're going eighteen miles
an hour, but you're just chatting. No problem. You get off,
you take one big, deep breath, and your your heart
rates back to fifty. I missed those days, but I
remember what it took to get there. Going to high school,
I didn't realize that basketball was a business. And my
high school coach at High Hull, who just retired last
year as the head coach there, told me to just
(20:05):
enjoy this year because remember, this will be the last
time you play for fun. It won't be the last
time you have fun playing, but it will be the
last time you play for fun. Wise words, and I
was in a wait. They told me about weight rooms.
I was like what, and tracks and running on. So
that's when I learned that. But also my mother was
diagnosed with cancer at the same time, and so I
(20:27):
realized that if I'm going to be here, it is
a sign of abject disrespect to my mother to fail
in this pursuit. And so That's that's what it was.
Every run, every step, every lift of a weight was
a step towards scholarship security. My mom being proud. Wow,
(20:48):
makes makes a ton of sense now, it really does,
so far away from home. Every player's journey to the
NBA is different, some more difficult than others. John's college
career was special. I remember watching him play a year
in the SEC for Vanderbilt in nine. I could tell
he was a problem. Then he transferred to Penn State
(21:10):
for three years before going undrafted, but did amazingly get
signed in nine by the Cleveland Cavaliers, becoming the first
undrafted player to start in their first game. John played
twenty eight games in Cleveland before injury. He then went
overseas to play in Italy, Greece, and the UK before
coming back to the NBA in n with the Orlando Magic,
(21:32):
where he had a breakout season, averaging ten points per
game over eighty games. He had one more season in Orlando,
playing in all eighty two games. John then played three
more seasons as a backup in Utah. Five seasons overall
in the NBA is a good career, but his biggest
contributions to the league and the world of sports were
(21:52):
still ahead of him. We'll be right back after a
word from our sponsors. A British sportsman is creating a
state side after admitting that he's gay. Why does America care?
Because John Amici was a professional basketball player, a sport
(22:16):
with a very macho image, in a sport that has
been graced by some legendary athletes. John Amici was ordinary,
but he's creating an extraordinary fuss in the US by
announcing that he's gay. Those who followed the sport closely
to say the revelation is unprecedented. You know, I know
(22:37):
you've talked about this and written about it in your book. Uh,
you're in the n b A. You're a gay man
at a time when it's not accepted. Forget pro sports,
it's not even accepted in daily life in most parts
of the country. What was that like and what do
you think when you see the world today where Ellen
is the most popular TV host for the a's decade.
(23:02):
Um So, I pretty much put my social life in
a box under my bed, And it wasn't just about
being in the closet. It was that I was never sure.
I don't know if people can relate to this fear,
but the idea that if I, if I really started
(23:23):
to enjoy everything, that perhaps it would all come crumbling
down and not just like being out. That was one
of those things. But one of the advantages that I
always have a slightly frivolous way, was that because I'm British,
people could never tell if I'm British or if I'm gay.
They just couldn't tell. And so, you know, and I
(23:43):
looked at some of the footage I did because I'm weird.
I did a ton of the n B A inside
of the NBA, you know, the ones that were Shardamad
used to one used to do a mad restand mad
Reshard there we go used to do. And I've looked
at one of them, and there's one of them where
I just say to the lens my teammates, no, I'm different,
(24:03):
and it's like wow, I mean, I didn't even realize
I was, you know. So essentially, I just was afraid
that if I had too much fun in any dimension,
if I moved away from my focus on being a
starter sitting in Orlando in the league, then I would
lose it all. So it was very easy to just
pretend for a while that I didn't have a life
(24:25):
outside of that. Did it Now that you're saying this,
it just breaks my heart somewhat, well quite a bit.
Did it inhibit you really establishing strong relationships friendships with
your teammates, just just for the fear that, you know,
maybe if you got close enough with them that if
(24:47):
you shared, you know, whatever, that I can only imagine. Man,
I'm sorry. So my teammates asked in Orlando and Utah. Uh.
The only person I didn't answer was Greg oost Attack,
simply because he asked me as we were walking out
onto the court to play the game, and I was like,
(25:08):
this is we are not having this conversation right, And
it never came back up again. But for my teammates,
certainly in Orlando, you know, it just was one of
those things where as long as we don't talk about it,
everything's fine, and people treated me with love and care.
They did. Um. It required a compromise on my side,
but it's love and care. It's weird, really, because although
(25:31):
it's not true that every NBA player has a girlfriend
in every every city, it is true that there are
what could be considered alternative lifestyles operating within the league,
and so it's kind of ironic to me that non
monogamous alternative lifestyles are somehow more appropriate. And I don't
have a judgment on that, by the way, as long
as it's consensual around and everything. Night. I had never
(25:53):
even I had never even put that together. Brilliant. Yeah,
And it's it's such a weird thing to see, you know.
I remember somebody because they knew I was studying psychology,
one of my teammates on the plane. They used to
come and sit next to me and or opposite me
on the on the plane if they had challenges or problems,
and so I remember one of the first ones that
happened was when one of my teammates sat opposite me
(26:16):
and said john And I didn't say Johnny said meach meach,
can you help me out? Uh? My wife doesn't like
my girlfriend? And I just thought, right, what what? What
an amazing thing to say, but but also lovely that
you think I can help you with this as a psychologist.
But also then that that that tinge of how weird
(26:39):
is it that this is a normal conversation That in
no way would I ever and nor should it make
me think you are a bad or wrong person as
long as there is something, you know, some sense of knowledge,
which that clearly was. But for me, as a person
without a partner, just the very fact of being a
(26:59):
gay person could somehow cause me harm. And it could,
you know, in Utah, it was people knew I was
gay in the organization and they did not like it
at all. Um, you know. And it wasn't just there
in Orlando talk in my last year there the you know,
I was being given books by the i think the
(27:21):
president of the organization, who was prolific in writing Jesus
late and books about business and Jesus Lading, books about
whatever else. And they would just be dropped into my
locker and I was like, I don't understand this. I
know I'm a reader, but I don't think that's why
I'm being given this. And the arrogance of that, the arrogance, Yeah,
I'm so sorry. Maybe he thought his writing was so
(27:43):
compelling it would change my very nature. Maybe I'm so sorry.
You're living the life of an NBA player, you're also
a person with feelings, needs all of that. You're not
in your home country, and you're still not someone who
loves the game, you know, particularly and you're hiding who
you are? How did you even manage to who? Now
(28:04):
we've already you did have two or three really good
seasons in the NBA, and that's not something just anyone
can do. But doing it while you're you're hiding a
big part, and you're getting older and you're you know,
understanding more about yourself and your independence, how did you
even manage to do that? To play at all? I
(28:28):
the you know, part of being in America. My mother
only ever watched me once play. It was it was
a game against Wisconsin at home at Penn State, and
we lost badly, and she was there, wrapped in she
was emaciated, she was wrapped in blankets to keep a
(28:49):
warm in the stands, and she watched me lose and
play badly. Um. I missed all the good time I
could have had with her, all of it. I would
never disrespect that by rejecting the job I had promised
(29:13):
to do. And this was the job I promised to do. Um.
And also I knew, you know how players sometimes we
talk about how players are born to something, and I
just knew that every time any player who looked at me,
however good or bad, they thought I was. They must
know that I had earned my way here starting at
(29:36):
seventeen and a half, from the day I picked up
at basketball. Six years later, I was in the league.
They was starting in the league. It's amazing, and so
they must know right that, even though I'm not as
good as many of them, they must know that I've
earned the right to be here. The ironic part was
that lots of my not lots, but at least one
of my coaches didn't believe that. He thought that because
(29:59):
I didn't love the game, I didn't deserve to be
in the league. There are Hall of Fame, There are
Hall of famers that didn't love the game, you know
very much. So, yeah, let's talk about our society for
a second. What we put on athletes. You know, who
they're supposed to be and how they're supposed to be.
Did you observe that as a player, You certainly must
(30:19):
now as a professional. Mm hmm. Yeah. I was intrigued
by the impact that athletes had. Even in high school.
I recognized very um my first high school game, I
walked in the gym, and don't forget from England, if
a couple of parents showed up, you were in hog heaven,
(30:41):
right really yeah, yeah, it's it's not no noon, It's
not a big deal. Um. You know, we have a
professional league here with the average salaries about dollars, so
it's not big time. And I got to this gym,
in this high school gym in Toledo St. John's in Toledo, Ohio,
(31:01):
and there were people in the stands going absolutely nuts.
There were my classmates with no shirts on and the
names of the team each letter. You know, it was unbelievable.
And then people are asking me about my opinions on stuff,
and people are asking me if I could come and
(31:23):
talk to some kids at a junior school, and you
suddenly realized this impact. I got to college and I
suddenly realized that when I spoke, people listened. When I
talked about the kids in Center County and the problems
that we're having with drugs there and there the issues
that were happening with poverty there, people listened. It was remarkable.
(31:44):
It's your superpower. It really, it's all of our supero
it's your superpower. I think people mistake you are um
considered and thoughtful, and I can't imagine a moment where
you post something and you don't realized that it could
have this profound impact. This thing that is almost inconsequential
(32:05):
to you could have this profound impact on other people.
I didn't learn this lesson properly until I was in
the league. I didn't learn for all that what I've
just said, I didn't learn it properly until I was
in Cleveland playing for a This was Cleveland terrible, right,
Who is the center that just retired with injury? Um,
(32:27):
Larry Nance was gone, like all those about Dirthy gone.
Everybody's got Mark Price gone. And so here I am
in this Cleveland team. It's the only reason I'm playing
on it. I was undrafted, but I played my way through,
and I was in the mall, the Cleveland walls where
I was. I was living at the hotel next door
because I didn't think I would be able to keep
(32:47):
my spot, and I would go to the mall just
to chill out. Um, because nobody even cared. Nobody yet,
you know you you couldn't have done that. I was that.
I was wearing all the Cleveland stuff right, like an
insecure clear I was. I was like, yes, but nobody
cared because we were so bad and I was so bad.
(33:08):
I was starting on this terrible team. And then suddenly
this big black woman is rushing through the crowd and
I can see she's heading for me. She comes towards
me and then she jams into my hand a napkin
and it is a used napkin from Panera bread and
it has it has mayonnaise on it, and it is
(33:29):
stuck to my hand, and she says, will you sign
this for my boy? I look her boy is behind her.
He wants no part of this. He knows that the
cabs are terrible and that this guy is terrible. And
so I just happened to have a sharpie with me.
That that was the stage of my career where everything
I wore there was that I had a sharpie with me,
and so I signed it. And then instead of handing
(33:52):
it to her, I just reached around her and I
shook this kid's hand and then I put this mayonnaise
autograph back in his hand and turned around, and she
turned around and dragged him through the crowd. And then
for some reason, as I'm walking out, I just turned
around and I see that she can't pull her kid
through the crowd anymore. He's just stood there and he's
kind of staring at his hand with the autograph. He's
(34:13):
staring at the hand that I shake. And that's when
it hit me. I am a terrible basketball player on
a terrible basketball team that nobody in this small cares about.
Sometimes the most inconsequential thing you do. And this is
the beauty of athletes when they're at their best. Not
(34:37):
on the court. This is the beauty of athletes at
their best. These inconsequential actions can have these massive ripples.
This kid's are psychologist. Now, I got a note about
six years agome on. He followed my career. He knows
that I'm a psychologist. He's become a psychologist. He's a
clinical psychologist. My you know what a store from a
(35:01):
mayonnaise autograph? That is just it gives me goose bumps.
I mean, come on, you don't give yourself, you know,
seven points a game or whatever my career averages. But
the campath it can make a difference. No, God, that's beautiful. Well,
(35:22):
from there, let's talk about the intersection of race and sports,
because sports has always been a class and power struggle.
Even now, the owners are billionaires and the players mere
millionaires who are still commodities to be bought and sold
and traded. But then you add race, what do you
see in the world of sports today and how does
it compare to the pro sports world that you were in.
(35:42):
So I don't know what your experience was, but I
have always felt that my experience with players is a
more conscious group of people than they in the locker
room than they talked about outside the locker room. I
remember during presidential cycles, UM, having influential politicians come into
the locker room, and not just Democrats, but people from
(36:04):
different perspectives to talk about the issues that they felt
were important. Some of the conversations we had around I
remember sitting in the locker room when the o J
verdict was was was saying was announced. Um, I remember
the conversations we had then. It's been a fascinating, um
enlightening journey to see this. What disappointed me back then
(36:27):
was how public stupidity, public no, no, not fair. The
dumbing down of the public persona seemed to be an
important part of the picture. The idea that players didn't
want to appear too clever, too tuned in, too controversial,
to opinionated, whereas now that seems to have changed, and
(36:48):
I think it's changed because the women have led the way.
I think in the in the league, it's the w
n b A, it's those remarkable women who led the
way and were punished initially by the way and then
changed the picture. And they changed the picture. They not
I mean, they essentially changed the whole ball game. Uh.
It took miss McConnell out of power. I mean, but
(37:12):
that was the women, and they agree. We have followed
their lead. Yeah, and that I've been really pleased to
see people doing things on an individual basis. I would
love to see people do things on a more concerted
and connected basis. I'm not super connected. I do bits
and pieces with the league now, but but I'm not
(37:33):
super connected with what's happening on the team basis. But
one of my biggest disappointments with Michael Jordan not that
I should be allowed to have an opinion, perhaps, but
I think he could have transformed America. And people think
that this is hyperbole, but I do not. I think
that he was the kind of person in his a,
in his era, I mean, who could have created a
(37:55):
coalition to do something about child poverty, to do something
about the dis outcomes from education and things like that.
His particular perspective Republicans by sneakers too, I think has
been devastating. I think the approach of people like Lebron
and others. Um, somebody who I love very much, I
(38:17):
think is a remarkable man as Deck. I just think
he's amazing. Um is who dee Sorry to kem By. Yeah,
I think just just you know, I don't know how
many hospitals he's built now, I don't know how many
causes that he stands up and rails for, but just remarkable.
I'm with you, and you know what I want to say.
(38:39):
Both of those men, uh, Michael and the Kimba represented
by the same man, David Falk And I came up
right behind Michael, and Michael was fame and success came
upon him in a relatively fast time, kind of like yourself.
He went from being a McDonald's All American to being
this thing. And he was kind of especially when I
(39:02):
came in the league in the late eighties, mid to
late eighties, he was. And not that it's right, I'm
just saying it was how it was nobody, nobody white
or black, really felt and maybe it was our education
and all that felt like we could say anything for
fear of, you know, losing our our jobs. And I
(39:25):
think he was that way too at a certain point,
and then he was kind of being asked to do
something different. I think to Kim Bay and Lebron and
all those guys have been inspired and in recent years,
Michael is coming, He's coming along. I'm with you. There
was a time where in a perfect world man, because
(39:45):
he was as famous, they would shut malls down for him, right,
do you remember like they did from Michael Jackson. So
I'm with you. I just wanted to kind of follow
that up. Uh and and to Kimbay what he's doing unbelievable.
Last last thing on sports, because there's so much more
to you than basketball. What do you think of when
you think they're roll sports play in society? What value
(40:06):
do they have to society? And should we continue to
hold them up? Sports over promises and underdelivers. It doesn't
matter what website you look at, the IOC, FEVER, FIFA,
any of these big international bodies, even the NBA, the league,
(40:28):
if they did what they promised on their website, the
world and not just the sporting world would be a
better place if they leverage their influence and their power,
their money, and they're convening authority. The world would be
a better place right now. There are some sports, more
(40:52):
than others, that run the risk of simply being a
minstrel show. You get in front of the camera, you perform,
everybody collaps, you go home. That's not enough. I don't
think it's not enough. It may be enough for the
individual player in that on that day, it's not enough
for the league to end it there, and it's not
(41:13):
enough to flash a few messages that say don't do drugs,
or or anti racism is cool, or whatever else. You
have to live that. You have to decide if you'll
go to certain countries that think that killing throwing gay
people from the top of buildings is appropriate, or in
turning Muslims is appropriate. You have to make tough decisions,
and I'm not sure that sport is interested in those
(41:36):
tough decisions. I mean, she's no ordinary British sportsman, the
basketball superstar. It seems like Orlando Magic and the Utah
Jazz in America. He's also studying for a doctorate in
child psychology and hopes he can do his bit to
help motivate youngsters like these pupils at the Earnest Bevin
Sports College in South London, John and Macchi. In recognition
(42:00):
of your many achievements in psychedethy in sport, it gives
me the greatest pleasure to ask Mark Stevens, Chair of
the Border Governors, to confer on you the award of
Honor Doctor of the University Honors Cows. You're a psychologist,
(42:21):
tell me in the audience how and why you became
a psychologist. This is a long and convoluted story. Have
people have to buy my book to really get the
fullness of this, but my new one and my old one.
My mom was a bit a gp. I watched her
work and I marvel at this because back in the day,
(42:42):
when I was seven years old, I would go on
visits with her to patients houses. She worked in palliative care,
so people who are not going to get better, and
I would end up sat in living rooms with fraught, devastated, anxious, scared,
terrified family member and as at seven, I would just
sit there and I remember telling my mom that the
(43:05):
air is so heavy, it's hard to breathe. After being
in one of those rooms, It's so hard to breathe,
and everybody, I think, can recognize that sense of dread
and how it almost literally weighs on your chest. And
I could feel that. But I would also watch how
my mom operate it. She'd come into a room and
(43:26):
she would look at every single person and it was
like she was doing the thing that she did to me,
just pouring sunlight into people's heads, and she would tell
them you can do this, You're gonna do this and this,
and I would listen as they just repeated back what
she said like she was a guru, and I thought
she was magic. And then in my mom took me
(43:50):
to see Star Wars, and if you've ever seen Star Wars,
there is a scene thirty four and a half minutes
in thirty five and a half minutes in the new
cut where Obi, Wan Kenobie, and Luke are going into
Moss Eisley and they get stopped by the Stormtroopers and
I'm confused because I think the film is going to
be over and obiwe just looks at the stormtroopers and
these aren't the droids we're looking for. We can move along,
(44:12):
move along, and they just repeat what he said, and
I think I was like at seven. I have seen
this before, and so that's the point that I knew
my moments a Jedi. I asked the librarian at my
local library, how do I become a Jedi? M After
I had to disabuse her of the idea I was
talking about Star Wars, she told me that psychologist was
(44:33):
the closest thing she could think of. And that's why
I'm a psychologist, because it's the closest thing I can
do to being a Jedi. Miss an accompliced God. That's beautiful,
That's just beautiful. Let's talk about the world right now.
It still seems extremely fractured, and the pandemic continues to
be an issue. What's John the person think of everything
that's happening? And then what's John the psychologist think about it?
(44:57):
John the person? Can you even do that? Yes? Yes.
The problem with me is that A I live alone,
and so I have just and I get up at
five in the morning, so I have just copious amounts
of time to think about stuff, and so I have
thought about this. Um, here's the problem I as a person.
(45:21):
Sometimes I'm surprised I'll wake up in the morning. Sometimes
I go to sleep and I am afraid that the
rage that I feel will strangle me in my sleep,
The rage at the callousness, at the ignorance, at the stupidity,
at the cruelty, at the avarice of the world. Who
(45:47):
will kill me in my sleep? I that is me.
John the psychologist and Jedi is somewhat more resilient than that.
And I know that for every thing I see that
causes me pain and makes me worry about the future
(46:10):
of humanity. Every once in a while you peek into
a corner of the Internet, or you have a conversation
with somebody online or in person, and there it is
that shaft of sunlight that makes you think there is hope.
That that's it's hard, but there is hope. All that
(46:34):
personal strength, the gumption that you have, the toughness. What
are things you still struggle with today? H M. Most
things I've struggled with, like body image issues since I
was a kid. I was a super fat kid. And
you know, one of the things that I most regret.
(46:55):
And I don't know if you have any of these,
but I have one picture of me with my shirt
off when I played. Yeah, I've got like one from
like high school. Yeah, I it was when I was
in the league, I've got one. When I definitely didn't
have one. You would never catch me. You know. I
was the guy who when I was in England before
I left my sister's bless him, they would bring a
(47:19):
big beach towel to the corner of the pool because
then you I wouldn't get out unless I could wrap
it up around my chest because I knew I was
a fat kid. But the problem is that in the league,
I thought it was fat and you were four body fat.
My my key years, I thought it was fat and
still so I know I'm chunky now and the problem
is at fifty I'm passable, and so people are like now.
(47:40):
But if you if you're gay and you have this
much body fat, you are way too fat. Trust me,
nobody's looking at you. So that's something I struggle with.
I think the sense of hopelessness that I thought I
would have made more of an impact on the world
by now. And I don't mean I haven't made any
impact on the Oh I've got a anti racism video
(48:02):
out there that's had ten million views, and I know
I hope that the things that I do help people
to be more resilient. I knew that basketball wouldn't be
the place where I got to be the Michael Jordan's
I thought that psychology might be and and I'm not
finished yet, but I'm not where I thought I would be. Okay,
(48:22):
I'm going to accept the answer. However, the fifty thousand
ft of view is you're the first to do something,
a couple of firsts, and that impact. Everyone knows you
in sports, everyone and we hope, I hope that you
know you doing what you've done and how you've gotten
(48:46):
there becoming a Jedi, and basically it all goes back
to your mom's strength, which gave you strength in every facet.
You are making this impact and this I mean, you're
fifty I'm fifty four at this point. You're just starting. Man,
you're just starting. I said I wasn't gonna ask more
sports questions, but it's only a sports question because it's
(49:08):
about you. You went from never playing basketball for the
first seventeen years of your life to the NBA in
just six years. What's it say about you? And how
does that part of what's in you help you navigate
the world. It says that I understand myself really well,
that's that's the big key. It's it's about introspection. People
think it's about drive and ambition, and that is important,
(49:30):
but I have no more of that than any other
person who is accomplished. The difference is that I know
myself really well. So the reason I made it to
the league is because I know that I am fundamentally lazy.
Give me an option to save energy, I will take
that option. Give me an option to skip practice, I
will take that option. Give me an option to go
(49:51):
through the motions in practice, I will take that option.
Uh that I'm lazy, Give me an option to not prepare,
to not watch take I will take that. And so fundamentally,
this self knowledge don'll have me to structure my life.
I ate the same I tell people this all the time.
I'm quite proud of this. I ate the same lunch
for a decade in the league because I knew that
(50:14):
variety is my enemy. Variety is what leads to cheesecake
for me, whereas brown rice, broiled chicken, and some kind
of green vegetable that leads to consistency makes you feel
like you've earned the rest of whatever your day is.
Right Bingo, yeah, yeah, I get it, I get it.
My goodness, John, thank you so much for being a
guest today on the show. I do hope we can
(50:37):
have you back because your perspective is incredible and not
only me, but I think everyone needs to hear more
of it on all sorts of things. Thank you, buddy,
It'll be a pleasure. Thank you. Rex Charges is created
by Portlay and Control Media. Is produced by DV Podcasts
(50:57):
in association with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for
my heart Radio, visit i Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts. M
Charges. That's created by por Delays and Control Media. It's
produced by dB Podcasts in association with I Heart Radio.
This time a former Son's player who you might remember
as t Rex. More video in just a moment, but
this is Rex Chapman's mug Shaun, and we are learning
a lot more about the charge up. Charging. You're a
(00:21):
gay man at a time when it's not accepted. Forget
pro sports, it's not even accepted in daily light in
most parts of the country. You know, in Utah, people
knew I was gay in the organization and they did
not like it at all from the daftings. But basketball
six years later, I was in the league. Some of
the sports and the sports league don't deserve a love.
(00:42):
Sports over promises and underdelivers. Welcome to Charges. I'm your host,
Rex Chapman. Today on the show we have John Amici.
Some of you guys are going to have to dig
deep in your mind for why that name rings a bell.
Maybe it's because John was the first person from England
(01:02):
or the United Kingdom to make it to the NBA.
Or maybe you're a fan of Penn State, where John
was at two time academic All American, or maybe it's
because after his professional career ended, John told the world
his truth. He's gay, and he played basketball at the
highest level as a gay man in the mid nineties
in early two thousands. And then John did what so
(01:24):
many athletes struggled to do. Hell, what I've struggled to do.
He retired, he moved on, he got involved with another passion,
and here he is now a decorated psychologist and one
of the smartest, most considerate people I've come across. Let
alone to lace up some sneakers or trainers as they're
called in England and be a part of the NBA brotherhood.
This his charges. John. It's an honor to have you
(01:56):
on the show today. Thank you for being here. It's
an absolute pleasure. Um. I'm sure that I'm not the
first to say this, but sometimes you post the usual
Dawa stuff that we all need to see. But sometimes
you post these timeline cleanses that are like, this is
saving me right now, this is saving me. So thank you. Yeah,
that's amazing, John. Normally on this show, UH, athletes have
(02:20):
face charges either from the law or court of public opinion.
What are the charges you've faced from the court of
public opinion? Well, everything from being just intrinsically sinful, uh,
full of myself, uh, pseudo intellectual um uppity. Okay, this
(02:44):
is this is just my small list of this. Yeah,
I get it. I get it. You've I don't know
if I want to sit down with you in therapy,
Uh where you're diagnosing me? My goodness, let's start here.
I've seen and heard you say this in other interviews. Uh,
you're not a sports fan. No, I really appreciate, so
(03:05):
I hope people can make this distinction. I really appreciate
when I see people do remarkable stuff, whether it's Simone
Biles and you watch her spinning mid air and land.
You know. I don't know about you, but I went
nowadays walking downstairs. There's a bit of a challenge for me,
so I went when I see that, but I recognize
intrinsically something amazing. I've been a part of something called
(03:27):
the Activity Alliance in the UK, which is a charity
that works with people with disabilities who participate in sports
or physical activity. And I remember this has got to
be nearly twenty years ago, when I uh was still
in the league, and I was I I think so anyway,
and I watched a young man, severely disabled young man
(03:48):
in an electric wheelchair with a bean bag, and they
have a bean bag throw is part of the competition.
And I remember watching and I was still at a
stage when I was probably stupid enough and young enough
to I don't know, to not care about people who
I didn't think we're real sports people. And then suddenly
I did like a double take on this this kid's face,
and I realized it's the same face that you see
(04:10):
on court. It's the same face. So I really appreciate
excellence in sport. My problem is that that some of
the fandom creates a real toxicity, and also some of
the sports and the sports league don't deserve our love.
They overpromise and underdeliver in a way that is so
(04:32):
epic that only weight loss drugs companies are probably ahead
of them. Yeah yeah, man, tell me how a non
sports fan who grows up in England becomes the first
Englishman to ever play in the NBA. I was stopped
on the street. And I don't think this is an
uncommon thing. It's an uncommon thing in the United Kingdom
to be stopped on the street to play basketball. But
(04:52):
I was stopped on the street by a man whose
name I do not know, and I don't know who
it was. And the different in that moment in my
life is remarkable because if you'd have asked me if
I wanted to play basketball, I would have laughed at
him sweating. I was seventeen years old when this happened.
I started playing basketball at seventeen and a half. You
hadn't picked up a basketball until then, really, no, no, no,
(05:15):
no no. I ate pie and read books. I ate
pie and read box. That was my So he he
saw your size you had gotten. How tall were you
at the time. I was probably six seventh Okay, wow,
so I got big real quick, and you know, it's
pretty much my I'm six nine now. Well I'm getting
short of now, but I'm as tall as I was,
almost as tall as I was going to be. And
(05:36):
he he didn't ask me if I wanted to play,
because I would have said no. He didn't even tell
me I should play. I always hate it when people
tell other people what they should do, because what they
really mean is you know what you're good for. But
he said he would be great a basketball and I
remember being absolutely incredulous. On the street in Manchester Market
street in Manchester, just being incredulous that somebody who was
(05:58):
a stranger had told me I could be eight. And
I was like, all right then, I mean such an
idiot because I ended up in a gym horrible Jim
in Chorlton with the backboards posted pasted onto the wall.
Something you took upon yourself to do what you heard that.
Had you played other sports? Had you played no, no, no.
(06:19):
My living was bringing in forged notes. My mom was
a doctor g P bringing in forged notes, saying John
can't do pe today. That was my life. I hated it.
I hated sweating physical activity. But I got in that
gym and fifteen or so strangers in that gym when
(06:40):
I walked in, ran towards me, grabbed me by the
arms and we're fighting over whose team who would get me?
Even when I was I was terrible. Obviously, you know
every big who walks in off the street, nobody's got
that much. I shot my first shot. Somebody told me
to shoot it, and I was like, what shoot it?
And so is put throw that in there? So I
(07:02):
threw it up. I missed by about six ft and somebody,
some kid on the team just just yelled out, that's
his first shot and he only missed by six ft
And I was like, who wouldn't want to live as
I was like at the end of that session, I said,
I'm never leaving this place and that's why I wanted
(07:23):
to play basketball. And when they told me, I told
him about the NBA. That day we were sat down
at the end of training. They started talking about the
NBA and I was like, what's that say? It's the
best league in the world. They said, well, what does
it mean? And the National Basketball Association? Cool, and listen,
it's in America. And I immediately thought, if I could
have this good feeling around people, but do it in
the sunshine, wouldn't that be great? And that's the start
(07:47):
of my NBA journey. I want to do what this
feeling but in Los Angeles, I can't even begin to
express to you all how incredible John of mechs. In
the history of the NBA, there's only been a little
over forty players. The odds of making it into the
league for anyone, let alone someone who picked up the
(08:08):
game at age seventeen, are right next to impossible. John's
journey from a young man who didn't play sports to
an adult who doesn't like sports but was a professional
basketball player in the NBA fraternity is so marvelous and
miraculous that it could be a movie. While some see
sports as an escape, the difference with John was that
for him it meant acceptance as a young six ft
(08:31):
eight black man amongst boys. So you just you felt
accepted by a group of people for the first time. Yeah,
because mostly when I when you know, when I walked
down the street even now, I mean I'm fairly regularly
(08:51):
stopped in searching in the United Kingdom. Um, but even then,
when I walked down the street, the number one reaction
to me was terror. Even as a geek key, you know,
thick glasses wearing kid who has usually had a pie
in his hand and books, people were terrified of me.
And yet in this place, you know, most of the
(09:12):
people in my school thought I was thick. Assumed if
I'm a big black kid, the only black kid in
my school, I must be thick. And so you get
into this new environment and everybody thinks you've got potential.
It's intoxicating. You were a great student, though, right always?
Or what did you put forth the effort? So I
(09:35):
was I was very um. Let me see, my mother
was very dedicated to me being a great student, and
I love to learn. But what's interesting, and nobody cares
about this, this is I'm taking a nerd, right, But um,
there's this weird thing where people misunderstand that being thrilled
by learning is not necessarily measured in education. And so
(10:01):
I did quite well at the O levels, which is
the up to sixteen A level. I did catastrophically badly
because what I'm not good at is regurgitating learned information.
What I'm great at is the integration of ideas to
come up with a decent solution, or at least contributing
to a decent solution. So actually, not even undergraduate, but
(10:22):
graduate school really suited me because that's what it was,
figuring things out. That's amazing. Tell me more about what
you remember about your early years with your mom um.
I I she was amazing. I always tell people that
my mom was better than their mom um. The best
way I can describe it is that most people have
(10:44):
had the experience of those lovely, high pressure, cool days
where the sun shining and it's not so bright, so
you can kind of close your eyes and look towards
the sun, and it feels like your whole brain is
being illuminated by the lights. That's what talking to my
mother was like. Everything she talked to you, it was
(11:07):
like your whole brain was being warmed and illuminated by
the sun, even when she was yelling at you. It
gives me chills. The way you speak, the way it
appears your mind works. It comes from somewhere. And you
describing your mother like that, just know that there's some
of that in there. Obviously obviously, Uh you said basketball
(11:33):
gave you acceptance for being big, for being black, you
know all of it. How important is that acceptance not
only for you in your life, but in everyone's life.
I think where you feel at home, where you where
you can find a place where you aren't spending parts
of your energy to protect yourself is amazing. I know
(11:56):
that you will understand this, perhaps from a different aspective,
but we've all been in positions where we've had to
hide or protect parts of our identity and it takes energy. People,
and so there's only a finite amount of energy. People
love this, especially in sports. We love this stupid idea
of a hundred and ten percent. It's like, no, sometimes
there is just a percent of something and not more
(12:19):
than that. And so if two percent of it is
being used to kind of protect you from those people
who say cruel things, and another two percents being used
because the coach has the wrong style or or treat
you with disrespect, and another two percent because you're worried
about your family at home, and another two percent another
whatever percent because you're gay and nobody knows about it,
whatever it is, you suddenly realize the end. And in
(12:41):
most workplaces you can get by. But when you're one
of the you know, supposedly top three odd people in
the world, it's something you kind of need, like on
a bad day, and especially as me, because let's face it,
you were a player. You are a legend, and I
am a former player, but not a legend, right, I'm not.
(13:05):
This is not humble, This is just practical. Let's just
be practical. And so I bring other things to the
table nowadays. And I brought other things to the table
when I was there, and I had a couple of
great years, but you know, not my on my best day,
I still needed to bring otherwise I would get squashed.
(13:26):
I understand that completely, and Honestly, I bounced around the league.
I wasn't an all star type player every year. I
understand exactly what you're talking about. And what was weird
for me is you know, any secret that I had
or part of my identity that I hid, you know,
over an amount of time over my life. Once I
(13:48):
started talking and those I let out those parts, you
know what, I felt uneasy, like I didn't know what
to do with out the secret or I'm sure you've
gone through that, right. It builds a gravity. Secrets have gravity,
and when you start to let go of it, it
(14:11):
feels like you're spiraling away from from something incredibly familiar,
even if that familiar is bad. You know, one of
the things that people don't realize about why change is
so hard. It's not actually about the difficulty of going
from something good to something better. It doesn't. It's not
even about the difficulty in going through something good to
something worse. Any change from your status quo will be unwelcome,
(14:34):
at least initially until you wrap your finder us. Yeah, yeah,
brilliant Dachi take go with a skin absolutely indo. He's
so big, it's so strong, and he's got such a
soft shot Michigan shot sent in the first half, John A.
Mici Mrs gets the foot back. Then State with Michigan regroup,
(14:58):
Michi strong inside or all to part room to AMGI.
He had twenty six and Maji spent two years and
stadium was tipped for the draft when the end wasn't picked.
Then just before the started last season, he got a
call from the Cleveland Cavaliers. The dream had come true.
Let's talk about becoming a professional athlete for a second
in the mid nineties in America. How did how did
(15:19):
you do that? How did you end up in the league?
I wrote three thousand letters to America UM when I
was seventeen from that day, that day that the man
approached you and this set you on track and you
had you had a focus at that point, right. Oh yeah.
I want to be clear. When I left the gym
(15:40):
after my first hour and fifteen minutes session in basketball,
having missed taken and missed one shot zero percent. That
sitting down in that gym with my new teammates, who
I already decided with my teammates now they talked about
the NBA. It was there they said, this is the NBA,
It's the best place in the world. I said, yeah,
(16:02):
I'm going to do that. That's what I told them
right there. And then what's interesting is that each of
them they said, of course you are, but not like
in a sake sarcasm way, in a legitimate yeah, of
course you are. So that's what started me off. Then
I had to find a way to get to America.
We went to a bookshop in London that had the
(16:22):
Fulbright Commission is you might be familiar with it, used
to do all kinds of exchanges and things like that.
But they had this book with all the high schools
in America in it. Because don't forget this is I
don't know eighty something and so it wasn't in an
internet or email time. And I got this book and
I simply went through. I knew there were too many
in that I just went through every couple of pages,
(16:43):
stuck a pen on the page whatever the dot was
that was. So there was this place in Roanoke, Virginia
that I wrote of this high school in Roano, Virginia.
I wrote a letter to um Toledo, Ohio. Quite a
few other places I wrote the same letter high coach.
My name is John M. G. I am six ft nine,
black and English and I want to play on your team,
(17:07):
something along about sirs lines. I expected to be inundated
and was not. I got three replies, UM, two of
which were knows. One of them like, why would you
bother right? But two of them were knows. One of
them was from a very famous high school in New Jersey,
UM where they said, we're the winning this school in
(17:28):
New Jersey. We don't need foreign talent. And then one
of them was from Telit, Ohio, and they said, if
you're serious, you're willing to work, we'll give you a goal.
So I went to Toledo, Ohio. That, by the way,
I just want to point out that blew my idea
of America out of the water. Don't don't don't forget that.
I knew America from night Rider in the eight That
(17:51):
was that was what I knew. The sun always shines,
but it shines in a really reasonable way. And I
got to Ohio in the middle of summer and nearly
died when I off the plane. I couldn't believe how
hot it was. Then people started talking to me, and
I realized that Americans don't speak English speak Americans, like,
what do you what do you think? So I spent
(18:12):
my first three weeks just nodding and smiling at people,
trying to figure out what the hell is going on
around But such a generous group of people. Were you?
Were you any good at this point? No? I mean,
I mean, I mean I thought I was a two
god X. I thought I was a two god. I
didn't like contact and I like to shoot threes. But John,
(18:36):
at within a year or two, you're able to compete
on the college level and not just compete, stand out.
That's where I started watching you. I actually you know,
I'm an SEC guy Kentucky all that. I remembered you
at Vandy and then did you you sat out a year? Yes,
(18:56):
because you showed back up at Penn State and we're
killing it. And so I don't understand. You know, it's
like a guy going from hitting fourteen home runs one
season to hitting seventy eight the next year. I just
don't understand how you were able to progress. Was it?
I'm sure your brain helped obviously, but you had to
(19:20):
fall in love somewhat with getting in shape and staying
in shaping you. No, I I lament most mornings. I
miss being in shape. You know, you look pretty in
shape right now, but I am not. And I lament
those days when you could just be on a you know,
when you be on a treadmill next to one of
(19:41):
your teammates, you just be talking. You're going eighteen miles
an hour, but you're just chatting. No problem. You get off,
you take one big, deep breath, and your your heart
rates back to fifty. I missed those days, but I
remember what it took to get there. Going to high school,
I didn't realize that basketball was a business. And my
high school coach at High Hull, who just retired last
year as the head coach there, told me to just
(20:05):
enjoy this year because remember, this will be the last
time you play for fun. It won't be the last
time you have fun playing, but it will be the
last time you play for fun. Wise words, and I
was in a wait. They told me about weight rooms.
I was like what, and tracks and running on. So
that's when I learned that. But also my mother was
diagnosed with cancer at the same time, and so I
(20:27):
realized that if I'm going to be here, it is
a sign of abject disrespect to my mother to fail
in this pursuit. And so That's that's what it was.
Every run, every step, every lift of a weight was
a step towards scholarship security. My mom being proud. Wow,
(20:48):
makes makes a ton of sense now, it really does,
so far away from home. Every player's journey to the
NBA is different, some more difficult than others. John's college
career was special. I remember watching him play a year
in the SEC for Vanderbilt in nine. I could tell
he was a problem. Then he transferred to Penn State
(21:10):
for three years before going undrafted, but did amazingly get
signed in nine by the Cleveland Cavaliers, becoming the first
undrafted player to start in their first game. John played
twenty eight games in Cleveland before injury. He then went
overseas to play in Italy, Greece, and the UK before
coming back to the NBA in n with the Orlando Magic,
(21:32):
where he had a breakout season, averaging ten points per
game over eighty games. He had one more season in Orlando,
playing in all eighty two games. John then played three
more seasons as a backup in Utah. Five seasons overall
in the NBA is a good career, but his biggest
contributions to the league and the world of sports were
(21:52):
still ahead of him. We'll be right back after a
word from our sponsors. A British sportsman is creating a
state side after admitting that he's gay. Why does America care?
Because John Amici was a professional basketball player, a sport
(22:16):
with a very macho image, in a sport that has
been graced by some legendary athletes. John Amici was ordinary,
but he's creating an extraordinary fuss in the US by
announcing that he's gay. Those who followed the sport closely
to say the revelation is unprecedented. You know, I know
(22:37):
you've talked about this and written about it in your book. Uh,
you're in the n b A. You're a gay man
at a time when it's not accepted. Forget pro sports,
it's not even accepted in daily life in most parts
of the country. What was that like and what do
you think when you see the world today where Ellen
is the most popular TV host for the a's decade.
(23:02):
Um So, I pretty much put my social life in
a box under my bed, And it wasn't just about
being in the closet. It was that I was never sure.
I don't know if people can relate to this fear,
but the idea that if I, if I really started
(23:23):
to enjoy everything, that perhaps it would all come crumbling
down and not just like being out. That was one
of those things. But one of the advantages that I
always have a slightly frivolous way, was that because I'm British,
people could never tell if I'm British or if I'm gay.
They just couldn't tell. And so, you know, and I
(23:43):
looked at some of the footage I did because I'm weird.
I did a ton of the n B A inside
of the NBA, you know, the ones that were Shardamad
used to one used to do a mad restand mad
Reshard there we go used to do. And I've looked
at one of them, and there's one of them where
I just say to the lens my teammates, no, I'm different,
(24:03):
and it's like wow, I mean, I didn't even realize
I was, you know. So essentially, I just was afraid
that if I had too much fun in any dimension,
if I moved away from my focus on being a
starter sitting in Orlando in the league, then I would
lose it all. So it was very easy to just
pretend for a while that I didn't have a life
(24:25):
outside of that. Did it Now that you're saying this,
it just breaks my heart somewhat, well quite a bit.
Did it inhibit you really establishing strong relationships friendships with
your teammates, just just for the fear that, you know,
maybe if you got close enough with them that if
(24:47):
you shared, you know, whatever, that I can only imagine. Man,
I'm sorry. So my teammates asked in Orlando and Utah. Uh.
The only person I didn't answer was Greg oost Attack,
simply because he asked me as we were walking out
onto the court to play the game, and I was like,
(25:08):
this is we are not having this conversation right, And
it never came back up again. But for my teammates,
certainly in Orlando, you know, it just was one of
those things where as long as we don't talk about it,
everything's fine, and people treated me with love and care.
They did. Um. It required a compromise on my side,
but it's love and care. It's weird, really, because although
(25:31):
it's not true that every NBA player has a girlfriend
in every every city, it is true that there are
what could be considered alternative lifestyles operating within the league,
and so it's kind of ironic to me that non
monogamous alternative lifestyles are somehow more appropriate. And I don't
have a judgment on that, by the way, as long
as it's consensual around and everything. Night. I had never
(25:53):
even I had never even put that together. Brilliant. Yeah,
And it's it's such a weird thing to see, you know.
I remember somebody because they knew I was studying psychology,
one of my teammates on the plane. They used to
come and sit next to me and or opposite me
on the on the plane if they had challenges or problems,
and so I remember one of the first ones that
happened was when one of my teammates sat opposite me
(26:16):
and said john And I didn't say Johnny said meach meach,
can you help me out? Uh? My wife doesn't like
my girlfriend? And I just thought, right, what what? What
an amazing thing to say, but but also lovely that
you think I can help you with this as a psychologist.
But also then that that that tinge of how weird
(26:39):
is it that this is a normal conversation That in
no way would I ever and nor should it make
me think you are a bad or wrong person as
long as there is something, you know, some sense of knowledge,
which that clearly was. But for me, as a person
without a partner, just the very fact of being a
(26:59):
gay person could somehow cause me harm. And it could,
you know, in Utah, it was people knew I was
gay in the organization and they did not like it
at all. Um, you know. And it wasn't just there
in Orlando talk in my last year there the you know,
I was being given books by the i think the
(27:21):
president of the organization, who was prolific in writing Jesus
late and books about business and Jesus Lading, books about
whatever else. And they would just be dropped into my
locker and I was like, I don't understand this. I
know I'm a reader, but I don't think that's why
I'm being given this. And the arrogance of that, the arrogance, Yeah,
I'm so sorry. Maybe he thought his writing was so
(27:43):
compelling it would change my very nature. Maybe I'm so sorry.
You're living the life of an NBA player, you're also
a person with feelings, needs all of that. You're not
in your home country, and you're still not someone who
loves the game, you know, particularly and you're hiding who
you are? How did you even manage to who? Now
(28:04):
we've already you did have two or three really good
seasons in the NBA, and that's not something just anyone
can do. But doing it while you're you're hiding a
big part, and you're getting older and you're you know,
understanding more about yourself and your independence, how did you
even manage to do that? To play at all? I
(28:28):
the you know, part of being in America. My mother
only ever watched me once play. It was it was
a game against Wisconsin at home at Penn State, and
we lost badly, and she was there, wrapped in she
was emaciated, she was wrapped in blankets to keep a
(28:49):
warm in the stands, and she watched me lose and
play badly. Um. I missed all the good time I
could have had with her, all of it. I would
never disrespect that by rejecting the job I had promised
(29:13):
to do. And this was the job I promised to do. Um.
And also I knew, you know how players sometimes we
talk about how players are born to something, and I
just knew that every time any player who looked at me,
however good or bad, they thought I was. They must
know that I had earned my way here starting at
(29:36):
seventeen and a half, from the day I picked up
at basketball. Six years later, I was in the league.
They was starting in the league. It's amazing, and so
they must know right that, even though I'm not as
good as many of them, they must know that I've
earned the right to be here. The ironic part was
that lots of my not lots, but at least one
of my coaches didn't believe that. He thought that because
(29:59):
I didn't love the game, I didn't deserve to be
in the league. There are Hall of Fame, There are
Hall of famers that didn't love the game, you know
very much. So, yeah, let's talk about our society for
a second. What we put on athletes. You know, who
they're supposed to be and how they're supposed to be.
Did you observe that as a player, You certainly must
(30:19):
now as a professional. Mm hmm. Yeah. I was intrigued
by the impact that athletes had. Even in high school.
I recognized very um my first high school game, I
walked in the gym, and don't forget from England, if
a couple of parents showed up, you were in hog heaven,
(30:41):
right really yeah, yeah, it's it's not no noon, It's
not a big deal. Um. You know, we have a
professional league here with the average salaries about dollars, so
it's not big time. And I got to this gym,
in this high school gym in Toledo St. John's in Toledo, Ohio,
(31:01):
and there were people in the stands going absolutely nuts.
There were my classmates with no shirts on and the
names of the team each letter. You know, it was unbelievable.
And then people are asking me about my opinions on stuff,
and people are asking me if I could come and
(31:23):
talk to some kids at a junior school, and you
suddenly realized this impact. I got to college and I
suddenly realized that when I spoke, people listened. When I
talked about the kids in Center County and the problems
that we're having with drugs there and there the issues
that were happening with poverty there, people listened. It was remarkable.
(31:44):
It's your superpower. It really, it's all of our supero
it's your superpower. I think people mistake you are um
considered and thoughtful, and I can't imagine a moment where
you post something and you don't realized that it could
have this profound impact. This thing that is almost inconsequential
(32:05):
to you could have this profound impact on other people.
I didn't learn this lesson properly until I was in
the league. I didn't learn for all that what I've
just said, I didn't learn it properly until I was
in Cleveland playing for a This was Cleveland terrible, right,
Who is the center that just retired with injury? Um,
(32:27):
Larry Nance was gone, like all those about Dirthy gone.
Everybody's got Mark Price gone. And so here I am
in this Cleveland team. It's the only reason I'm playing
on it. I was undrafted, but I played my way through,
and I was in the mall, the Cleveland walls where
I was. I was living at the hotel next door
because I didn't think I would be able to keep
(32:47):
my spot, and I would go to the mall just
to chill out. Um, because nobody even cared. Nobody yet,
you know you you couldn't have done that. I was that.
I was wearing all the Cleveland stuff right, like an
insecure clear I was. I was like, yes, but nobody
cared because we were so bad and I was so bad.
(33:08):
I was starting on this terrible team. And then suddenly
this big black woman is rushing through the crowd and
I can see she's heading for me. She comes towards
me and then she jams into my hand a napkin
and it is a used napkin from Panera bread and
it has it has mayonnaise on it, and it is
(33:29):
stuck to my hand, and she says, will you sign
this for my boy? I look her boy is behind her.
He wants no part of this. He knows that the
cabs are terrible and that this guy is terrible. And
so I just happened to have a sharpie with me.
That that was the stage of my career where everything
I wore there was that I had a sharpie with me,
and so I signed it. And then instead of handing
(33:52):
it to her, I just reached around her and I
shook this kid's hand and then I put this mayonnaise
autograph back in his hand and turned around, and she
turned around and dragged him through the crowd. And then
for some reason, as I'm walking out, I just turned
around and I see that she can't pull her kid
through the crowd anymore. He's just stood there and he's
kind of staring at his hand with the autograph. He's
(34:13):
staring at the hand that I shake. And that's when
it hit me. I am a terrible basketball player on
a terrible basketball team that nobody in this small cares about.
Sometimes the most inconsequential thing you do. And this is
the beauty of athletes when they're at their best. Not
(34:37):
on the court. This is the beauty of athletes at
their best. These inconsequential actions can have these massive ripples.
This kid's are psychologist. Now, I got a note about
six years agome on. He followed my career. He knows
that I'm a psychologist. He's become a psychologist. He's a
clinical psychologist. My you know what a store from a
(35:01):
mayonnaise autograph? That is just it gives me goose bumps.
I mean, come on, you don't give yourself, you know,
seven points a game or whatever my career averages. But
the campath it can make a difference. No, God, that's beautiful. Well,
(35:22):
from there, let's talk about the intersection of race and sports,
because sports has always been a class and power struggle.
Even now, the owners are billionaires and the players mere
millionaires who are still commodities to be bought and sold
and traded. But then you add race, what do you
see in the world of sports today and how does
it compare to the pro sports world that you were in.
(35:42):
So I don't know what your experience was, but I
have always felt that my experience with players is a
more conscious group of people than they in the locker
room than they talked about outside the locker room. I
remember during presidential cycles, UM, having influential politicians come into
the locker room, and not just Democrats, but people from
(36:04):
different perspectives to talk about the issues that they felt
were important. Some of the conversations we had around I
remember sitting in the locker room when the o J
verdict was was was saying was announced. Um, I remember
the conversations we had then. It's been a fascinating, um
enlightening journey to see this. What disappointed me back then
(36:27):
was how public stupidity, public no, no, not fair. The
dumbing down of the public persona seemed to be an
important part of the picture. The idea that players didn't
want to appear too clever, too tuned in, too controversial,
to opinionated, whereas now that seems to have changed, and
(36:48):
I think it's changed because the women have led the way.
I think in the in the league, it's the w
n b A, it's those remarkable women who led the
way and were punished initially by the way and then
changed the picture. And they changed the picture. They not
I mean, they essentially changed the whole ball game. Uh.
It took miss McConnell out of power. I mean, but
(37:12):
that was the women, and they agree. We have followed
their lead. Yeah, and that I've been really pleased to
see people doing things on an individual basis. I would
love to see people do things on a more concerted
and connected basis. I'm not super connected. I do bits
and pieces with the league now, but but I'm not
(37:33):
super connected with what's happening on the team basis. But
one of my biggest disappointments with Michael Jordan not that
I should be allowed to have an opinion, perhaps, but
I think he could have transformed America. And people think
that this is hyperbole, but I do not. I think
that he was the kind of person in his a,
in his era, I mean, who could have created a
(37:55):
coalition to do something about child poverty, to do something
about the dis outcomes from education and things like that.
His particular perspective Republicans by sneakers too, I think has
been devastating. I think the approach of people like Lebron
and others. Um, somebody who I love very much, I
(38:17):
think is a remarkable man as Deck. I just think
he's amazing. Um is who dee Sorry to kem By. Yeah,
I think just just you know, I don't know how
many hospitals he's built now, I don't know how many
causes that he stands up and rails for, but just remarkable.
I'm with you, and you know what I want to say.
(38:39):
Both of those men, uh, Michael and the Kimba represented
by the same man, David Falk And I came up
right behind Michael, and Michael was fame and success came
upon him in a relatively fast time, kind of like yourself.
He went from being a McDonald's All American to being
this thing. And he was kind of especially when I
(39:02):
came in the league in the late eighties, mid to
late eighties, he was. And not that it's right, I'm
just saying it was how it was nobody, nobody white
or black, really felt and maybe it was our education
and all that felt like we could say anything for
fear of, you know, losing our our jobs. And I
(39:25):
think he was that way too at a certain point,
and then he was kind of being asked to do
something different. I think to Kim Bay and Lebron and
all those guys have been inspired and in recent years,
Michael is coming, He's coming along. I'm with you. There
was a time where in a perfect world man, because
(39:45):
he was as famous, they would shut malls down for him, right,
do you remember like they did from Michael Jackson. So
I'm with you. I just wanted to kind of follow
that up. Uh and and to Kimbay what he's doing unbelievable.
Last last thing on sports, because there's so much more
to you than basketball. What do you think of when
you think they're roll sports play in society? What value
(40:06):
do they have to society? And should we continue to
hold them up? Sports over promises and underdelivers. It doesn't
matter what website you look at, the IOC, FEVER, FIFA,
any of these big international bodies, even the NBA, the league,
(40:28):
if they did what they promised on their website, the
world and not just the sporting world would be a
better place if they leverage their influence and their power,
their money, and they're convening authority. The world would be
a better place right now. There are some sports, more
(40:52):
than others, that run the risk of simply being a
minstrel show. You get in front of the camera, you perform,
everybody collaps, you go home. That's not enough. I don't
think it's not enough. It may be enough for the
individual player in that on that day, it's not enough
for the league to end it there, and it's not
(41:13):
enough to flash a few messages that say don't do drugs,
or or anti racism is cool, or whatever else. You
have to live that. You have to decide if you'll
go to certain countries that think that killing throwing gay
people from the top of buildings is appropriate, or in
turning Muslims is appropriate. You have to make tough decisions,
and I'm not sure that sport is interested in those
(41:36):
tough decisions. I mean, she's no ordinary British sportsman, the
basketball superstar. It seems like Orlando Magic and the Utah
Jazz in America. He's also studying for a doctorate in
child psychology and hopes he can do his bit to
help motivate youngsters like these pupils at the Earnest Bevin
Sports College in South London, John and Macchi. In recognition
(42:00):
of your many achievements in psychedethy in sport, it gives
me the greatest pleasure to ask Mark Stevens, Chair of
the Border Governors, to confer on you the award of
Honor Doctor of the University Honors Cows. You're a psychologist,
(42:21):
tell me in the audience how and why you became
a psychologist. This is a long and convoluted story. Have
people have to buy my book to really get the
fullness of this, but my new one and my old one.
My mom was a bit a gp. I watched her
work and I marvel at this because back in the day,
(42:42):
when I was seven years old, I would go on
visits with her to patients houses. She worked in palliative care,
so people who are not going to get better, and
I would end up sat in living rooms with fraught, devastated, anxious, scared,
terrified family member and as at seven, I would just
sit there and I remember telling my mom that the
(43:05):
air is so heavy, it's hard to breathe. After being
in one of those rooms, It's so hard to breathe,
and everybody, I think, can recognize that sense of dread
and how it almost literally weighs on your chest. And
I could feel that. But I would also watch how
my mom operate it. She'd come into a room and
(43:26):
she would look at every single person and it was
like she was doing the thing that she did to me,
just pouring sunlight into people's heads, and she would tell
them you can do this, You're gonna do this and this,
and I would listen as they just repeated back what
she said like she was a guru, and I thought
she was magic. And then in my mom took me
(43:50):
to see Star Wars, and if you've ever seen Star Wars,
there is a scene thirty four and a half minutes
in thirty five and a half minutes in the new
cut where Obi, Wan Kenobie, and Luke are going into
Moss Eisley and they get stopped by the Stormtroopers and
I'm confused because I think the film is going to
be over and obiwe just looks at the stormtroopers and
these aren't the droids we're looking for. We can move along,
(44:12):
move along, and they just repeat what he said, and
I think I was like at seven. I have seen
this before, and so that's the point that I knew
my moments a Jedi. I asked the librarian at my
local library, how do I become a Jedi? M After
I had to disabuse her of the idea I was
talking about Star Wars, she told me that psychologist was
(44:33):
the closest thing she could think of. And that's why
I'm a psychologist, because it's the closest thing I can
do to being a Jedi. Miss an accompliced God. That's beautiful,
That's just beautiful. Let's talk about the world right now.
It still seems extremely fractured, and the pandemic continues to
be an issue. What's John the person think of everything
that's happening? And then what's John the psychologist think about it?
(44:57):
John the person? Can you even do that? Yes? Yes.
The problem with me is that A I live alone,
and so I have just and I get up at
five in the morning, so I have just copious amounts
of time to think about stuff, and so I have
thought about this. Um, here's the problem I as a person.
(45:21):
Sometimes I'm surprised I'll wake up in the morning. Sometimes
I go to sleep and I am afraid that the
rage that I feel will strangle me in my sleep,
The rage at the callousness, at the ignorance, at the stupidity,
at the cruelty, at the avarice of the world. Who
(45:47):
will kill me in my sleep? I that is me.
John the psychologist and Jedi is somewhat more resilient than that.
And I know that for every thing I see that
causes me pain and makes me worry about the future
(46:10):
of humanity. Every once in a while you peek into
a corner of the Internet, or you have a conversation
with somebody online or in person, and there it is
that shaft of sunlight that makes you think there is hope.
That that's it's hard, but there is hope. All that
(46:34):
personal strength, the gumption that you have, the toughness. What
are things you still struggle with today? H M. Most
things I've struggled with, like body image issues since I
was a kid. I was a super fat kid. And
you know, one of the things that I most regret.
(46:55):
And I don't know if you have any of these,
but I have one picture of me with my shirt
off when I played. Yeah, I've got like one from
like high school. Yeah, I it was when I was
in the league, I've got one. When I definitely didn't
have one. You would never catch me. You know. I
was the guy who when I was in England before
I left my sister's bless him, they would bring a
(47:19):
big beach towel to the corner of the pool because
then you I wouldn't get out unless I could wrap
it up around my chest because I knew I was
a fat kid. But the problem is that in the league,
I thought it was fat and you were four body fat.
My my key years, I thought it was fat and
still so I know I'm chunky now and the problem
is at fifty I'm passable, and so people are like now.
(47:40):
But if you if you're gay and you have this
much body fat, you are way too fat. Trust me,
nobody's looking at you. So that's something I struggle with.
I think the sense of hopelessness that I thought I
would have made more of an impact on the world
by now. And I don't mean I haven't made any
impact on the Oh I've got a anti racism video
(48:02):
out there that's had ten million views, and I know
I hope that the things that I do help people
to be more resilient. I knew that basketball wouldn't be
the place where I got to be the Michael Jordan's
I thought that psychology might be and and I'm not
finished yet, but I'm not where I thought I would be. Okay,
(48:22):
I'm going to accept the answer. However, the fifty thousand
ft of view is you're the first to do something,
a couple of firsts, and that impact. Everyone knows you
in sports, everyone and we hope, I hope that you
know you doing what you've done and how you've gotten
(48:46):
there becoming a Jedi, and basically it all goes back
to your mom's strength, which gave you strength in every facet.
You are making this impact and this I mean, you're
fifty I'm fifty four at this point. You're just starting. Man,
you're just starting. I said I wasn't gonna ask more
sports questions, but it's only a sports question because it's
(49:08):
about you. You went from never playing basketball for the
first seventeen years of your life to the NBA in
just six years. What's it say about you? And how
does that part of what's in you help you navigate
the world. It says that I understand myself really well,
that's that's the big key. It's it's about introspection. People
think it's about drive and ambition, and that is important,
(49:30):
but I have no more of that than any other
person who is accomplished. The difference is that I know
myself really well. So the reason I made it to
the league is because I know that I am fundamentally lazy.
Give me an option to save energy, I will take
that option. Give me an option to skip practice, I
will take that option. Give me an option to go
(49:51):
through the motions in practice, I will take that option.
Uh that I'm lazy, Give me an option to not prepare,
to not watch take I will take that. And so fundamentally,
this self knowledge don'll have me to structure my life.
I ate the same I tell people this all the time.
I'm quite proud of this. I ate the same lunch
for a decade in the league because I knew that
(50:14):
variety is my enemy. Variety is what leads to cheesecake
for me, whereas brown rice, broiled chicken, and some kind
of green vegetable that leads to consistency makes you feel
like you've earned the rest of whatever your day is.
Right Bingo, yeah, yeah, I get it, I get it.
My goodness, John, thank you so much for being a
guest today on the show. I do hope we can
(50:37):
have you back because your perspective is incredible and not
only me, but I think everyone needs to hear more
of it on all sorts of things. Thank you, buddy,
It'll be a pleasure. Thank you. Rex Charges is created
by Portlay and Control Media. Is produced by DV Podcasts
(50:57):
in association with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for
my heart Radio, visit i Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts. M
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