May 23, 2023 • 32 mins
In the first episode of “Chasing Sleep” Season 2, new hosts Katie Lowes and Adam Shapiro talk with expert guest Dr. Wendy Troxel about how quality sleep can improve your relationship by boosting your mood, empathy, and even sex drive. They also dish about the challenges many couples encounter in the bedroom, from snoring to temperature differences, to going to bed at different times – all of which can negatively affect not only sleep quality, but also your relationship chemistry. In pursuit of solutions, they learn more about “sleep divorce” and chat with Ky and Val, a young couple from Brooklyn who find sleeping in separate bedrooms boosts their intimacy and enables them to sleep better together — and separately. “Chasing Sleep” is an iHeart Radio production in partnership with Mattress Firm.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Katie, I've got a question for you.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Yeah, do you think we sleep better when we're sleeping
in the same bed or when we're not sleeping in
the same bed.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
I sleep better when you're in the bed because I'm
really cold and I put my cold feet on your
hot hot, too, hot body.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
I'm down for whatever results in bow chicka. Wow. Wow.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
When we go to sleep at the same time, there's
a better shot at it.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I can't believe you made this about going to sleep earlier.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Hi, everybody, I'm Katie Lows. I am an actor, a
podcast host, a mom, and honestly very tired most of
the time.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
And I'm Adam Shapiro, an actor, a pretzel maker, a
dad in Katie's husband.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
And this is Chasing Sleep, a production of Ruby Studios
from iHeartMedia in partnership with Mattress Firm. Everybody sleeps, and
sleep affects just about everything, our health, relationships, intimacy, being
patient with your kids, our work, and our play. In
this season of Chasing Sleep, we'll dig into the many
(01:03):
ways sleep impacts our lives and find out what's real
and what's myth.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
And we're going to talk to everyday people about real
life situations that lots of us encounter.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
And this is our first episode. Good luck, honey, let's
do it.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Let's get into it.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
This episode is about sleep and love. I'm so excited
to be co hosting with my husband.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Yeah, this is nice.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
It's like a built in date.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
I agree. You know, it's really nice when you're in
a relationship and you.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Can just do about anything together, you know, talking, laughing, eating, drinking, exercise,
raising kids. But you know what could be difficult, huh,
sleeping in the same bedroom together.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
We talked with some other couples to find out how
they're doing in the bedroom.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Don't you mean sleeping, I mean sleeping.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
In the bedroom.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
We've been together for thirteen years seven months today.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Forty years. Yeah, coming up on six years.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
The nicest thing about sharing a bed together is waking
up in the morning and kind of communicating and having
sort of that interaction. You know, we're a team and
it is nice to like be close to each other physically.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
I feel like we get to like online together and
just kind of like talk through what happened during the day.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
We can snuggle, but we can also have our own space.
Speaker 4 (02:20):
You like, will put his.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Arm around me, I just have to like push you off.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
You take the good with the bad.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
I definitely sleep better when I got my partner a bit.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
I just do.
Speaker 5 (02:29):
I do like having my partner next to me.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
Yeah, absolutely love sleeping next.
Speaker 6 (02:35):
To each other.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
It's the best.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
I think there's something comforting about your partners.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
It's like the balance. The bed needs some balance.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
That's very poetic. It's something that just feels good.
Speaker 4 (02:46):
And I just.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Genuinely and generally feel a lot happier being able to
sleep with my partner every singal night. I just have
so many questions about improving our sleep, our relationship to sleep,
our relationship to each other.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Like, for example, I sleep with a snorer?
Speaker 1 (03:06):
You do?
Speaker 4 (03:08):
Is it me?
Speaker 3 (03:09):
You Oudam Shapiro, you snore?
Speaker 6 (03:12):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Yeah, we're a married couple and sometimes we put each
other to sleep.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
That's that's healthy, right.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Unless we're having sex at the same time.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
It happens. Oh, we are going there.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
I am really excited to speak with today's guests. We
are joined by doctor Wendy M. Troxel. She is the
author of Sharing the Covers, Every Couple's Guide to Better Sleep.
Welcome doctor Wendy Troxel.
Speaker 4 (03:40):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited
to be here today with you all.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
I have so many questions for you about relationships.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Whoa I'm sure Katie does.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
We also have Kai Dates and Valerie Weisler here. They
are a very cool, happy couple from Brooklyn, New York.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Hi, Kai and Val, thank you.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
Happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Yeah, thanks for having us, Thanks for being here.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Guys, Kai and Val, you're young, You're in love. How
long have you two been together?
Speaker 6 (04:09):
We have been together since October twenty nineteen. Our first
date was a date we didn't know was a date
at the local ice cream parlor. So about three and
a half years now.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
And how long since you've moved in together?
Speaker 5 (04:22):
Previously because of lockdown with the pandemic, it was like
we were college students dating and then we were long
distance for I think like six months, right, and then
Val moved into my childhood home.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
With me for six months.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Got it.
Speaker 5 (04:36):
And then Val lived in Ireland for a year to
do her master's degree while I finished my undergrad degree.
Speaker 4 (04:42):
Wow, and now we live.
Speaker 5 (04:44):
Together in the same city.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
So now, in all these circumstances, have you ever felt
like your sleep quality is affecting?
Speaker 1 (04:54):
How the two of you get along as a couple.
Speaker 5 (04:57):
Yeah, I think I I am the person in our
relationship who has the most sleep issues. So I feel
drawn to start because I tend to have big meltdowns
when I'm tired. So I think I'm the one who's
(05:18):
most impacted emotionally by lack of sleep. I think for me,
I tend to have a pretty easy time falling asleep,
but a very hard time staying asleep, Like everything gets heightened.
And so I think I am a better communicator and
partner when I have my.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
Best sleep doctor.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Troxel. Since you're not just a relationships expert, but you're
so knowledgeable about how sleep affects relationships, help us understand
what sleep means for being happy as a couple.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
Oh, that's a loaded question. So the vast majority of
the study of sleep, the science of sleep, has focused
on sleep as this individual behavior, and yet that's not
how sleep occurs for most couples. After all, we spend
about a third of our lives asleep, so that's a
major part of our coupled existence. When we're sleep deprived
(06:14):
or sleep is disturbed, it really manifests quite obviously and
quite quickly in our moods, particularly our irritability levels.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Yes, you know, today's a perfect example. Our kiddos woke Oh,
we have two kids, five and two. They woke up
very early. They jumped out of their rooms, they jump
in our beds, and then it becomes sort of a
competition between me and Katie on who can stay in
the bed long enough without going crazy and getting up
and doing the morning with the kid.
Speaker 4 (06:42):
And that happens with a lot of couples for a
variety of different reasons. Children being just one of the
sleep disruptions that can disturb the sleep of a couple.
And again, this is where sleep in our relationships are
so intertwined because who's the person that you're most likely
to lash out at when you're irritable and sleep deprived.
Your partner, Right, you're able to rein that in a
(07:04):
little bit more when you're dealing with your boss, or
your friends or your colleagues, But it's your partner who
will face the brunt of that emotional dysregulation that we
know stems from in part from sleep deprivation.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
It's amazing how many fights Adam and I have been
together for seventeen years and how many fights we have
been in and sleep has never really been a topic
something that we should really like work on, and how
we sleep together. I mean, Adam and I talked about
(07:37):
briefly about, you know, snoring. How do you and I? VALANCHI,
I'm sure do you have personal stories about all of that?
Is somebody a snorer? Adam's a snorer? What about you?
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Only occasionally? This guy is too, We're both snores.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
What are your sleep sounds that wig each other up?
Speaker 5 (07:58):
I am a sleep talk I am too.
Speaker 6 (08:03):
I'll say the sleep talking is actually not a low
point for me. It's a high point because I think
that sleep talking is so funny and I don't sleep talk.
But growing up I was like, I hope that my
future partner sleep talk because I think that is just hilarious.
And I'm the night owl and the relationship so I'm
usually up later than Ty, And if I'm lucky, do.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
You get to catch it?
Speaker 6 (08:27):
I get to hear something weird that they say in
their sleep, a little gift, So that is a joy
for me. But then the snoring, I think both of
us have our own qualms about.
Speaker 4 (08:37):
The other person.
Speaker 5 (08:38):
Yeah, I think this was actually pretty recently, Val really
woke me up with some loud snoring, and I was
very aggressive in my half awake, half asleep, like stop it.
But then I found out from that because that was like,
I can't. I love you so much, I can't. I
(09:00):
believe you yelled at me the one time it happened
because you snore every night, and I had no idea
that I snore every night.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
Snoring is the disease of listeners, so it's not surprising
that because you were unaware.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Yeah, oh, that's so funny.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
I think sometimes I hurt Katie in that I'm I
go to bed so much later than she does. I'm
like sneaking in like an international spy, like a ninja.
Speaker 4 (09:27):
She's best laid plans.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Sometimes you come into bed and you just decide I
really want to snuggle her at one am.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
This is true, but I'm talking about the times that
I come in like a ninja.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
It seems to not matter.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
It seems like Katie always wakes up when I come in,
no matter how loud I get. But I can't go
to bed at the same time she does. That's just
not in my personality. My energy is not your biology.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
Yeah, doctor Troxel, what do you advise couples who don't
have same sleep schedules.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
The reality is, just because you fall in love with
human being doesn't mean you're automatically biologically going to be
syncd up in terms of your natural biologically driven sleep
wake rhythms or cir Katiean rhythms. Couples may decide for
this reason because their schedules are so different and the
sleep disruption when one partner comes to bed later is
(10:17):
so disruptive. They may even choose to sleep in separate bedrooms.
I have a number of strategies I talk about in
my book, the first of which, honestly, for couples, it's
often the time you spend together in bed before one
of you falls asleep. That's actually a really critical and
sacred time in the life of a relationship. So I
do recommend to couples that you try to preserve some
(10:39):
cuddle time together, that quiet time in bed, for instance,
before Katie you fall asleep at your natural earlier bedtime.
When it's time for you to go to sleep, Adam
leaves the room.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
I would be so much more game of cuddling you
at nine nine thirty than when he tries to sometimes
do that at one or and I'm so angry that
he's interrupted my big window.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
When you're not exhausted quite yet.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
Adam has no problem falling asleep at ten pm if
we've gotten after it. You know what I'm saying, Like seriously,
like he that is the only time he has no
problem falling asleep at ten or eleven is if he
has an orgasm.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Goodness, Yeah, we're going there.
Speaker 4 (11:21):
I'm not interested, right, I'll fall.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Asleep at three pm if you want to have sex, kated.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
I'm in a sexual mastery class for men right now,
you tell because I want it.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
During a silent auction at a charity event the other.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Day, I made him bid on it. I was like,
this sounds cool.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Well, I was in a bidding war with my friend
and then it became a joke, and then it became
a very expensive joke.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
But now I'm in this intense class. It's amazing.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
Did you already start it? Yeah, kiddy, I'm a mess,
I'm a blister, Okay.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Doctor Troxel, what does the data say about sex life
in sleeping? Does bad sleep kind of affect your sex life?
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Is that related? Yes?
Speaker 4 (12:04):
Yes, getting good quality sleep has profound impacts on our
sexual hormones like testosterone. In men, one study published in
the Journal of the American Medical Association, which is the
pre eminent medical journal, showed that men, healthy young men,
by the way, who sleep less than five hours per night,
showed a ten percent reduction in testosterone levels. And just
(12:28):
like to put that in perspective for you, that ten
percent reduction is the equivalent of aging a man hormonally
by about ten years, So a forty year old man
looks a bit more like a fifty year old man.
In terms of this critical of reproductive hormone. We see
similar hormonal effects in women and also effects on the
(12:50):
frequency and enjoyment of sexual activity among women. So for
each hour of extra sleep a woman gets, one study
showed to a fourteen percent increase in her enjoyment of
sexual activity and frequency. So there is a profound and
important couple level reason to prioritize sleep in the context
(13:13):
of your relationship. Sleep is good for sex, not to
mention all the emotional effects that come from being well slept. Frankly,
you know, we're all happier, funnier, better communicators when we're
well slept, which is also good for one's relational life
and one's sex life.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
This is a fascinating discussion and we are not done.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
More to come.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
We're back and I can't wait to get back to
this conversation with Kai and Val, our couple in Brooklyn,
and with sleep and Relationships expert doctor Wendy Troxel. There's
so much more that I want to find out. Kai
and Val, Can you tell us what's your sleeping arrangement
right now?
Speaker 6 (14:00):
Yes, we have separate rooms, but it didn't start from snoring.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Let's get into that.
Speaker 5 (14:08):
I think for various reasons, I toss and turn in
the middle of the night, but it's heightened when I'm
sharing a bed sometimes. So when that's the case, whether
or not it's because of vallis snoring or like just
the you know, additional heat of the room because there's
multiple bodies in it, or lack of space to sprawl,
(14:29):
like whatever.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Yeah, I want to get a little bit into the
snitty gritty because I'm absolutely fascinated by this. I can
remember working on Scandal and there's an actor who will
remain nameless on this podcast, but I knew wasn't sleeping
in the same bed as his wife, and I was like, loop.
Writing's on the wall divorce, divorce, divorce, and it's like
he's the worst snorer ever, Like it's awful. I know
(14:53):
this about him, and they're still married. So I'm like, Okay,
I think it's just amazing that you are, not that
you've barreled through.
Speaker 5 (15:03):
I think like at first I was sort of like
taken aback because I didn't really know anyone who does this,
and before I was able to like fully commit to it,
I think I had to do some like reworking of
what this sort of like nuclear family norm is of
(15:24):
like what a home space is supposed to look like
and what a bedroom is supposed to be and represent.
And I sat with that for a couple of days.
Speaker 6 (15:34):
I talked about it with my therapist, and I went
into therapy with the goal of, like get me out
of this mindset, like in forty five minutes, I want
to leave feeling comfortable sharing a room with my partner
because something clearly must be wrong with me that this
is my want. And then instead, my therapist, being a
good therapist, was like, actually, this is what you want.
It sounds like it's what you need, and that's okay.
(15:56):
I heard the term sleep divorce and we are not married.
But like, the shame is real. There was a lot
that I had to work through when I realized that
this was something I wanted. And I was raised with
this idea that you meet someone, you fall in love,
and then when you move in together, you're sharing a
room and you're creating a home, and feeling that I
needed to do something differently, Suddenly I was having all
(16:20):
of these wonders about myself and if something was wrong
with me, when in reality, this is one of the
best decisions I've made, not only for myself but also
for my relationship.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
We've heard the term sleep divorce, but that's a that's
not a divorce, that's like that's helping me.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
I know, it's such a negative connotation. It sounds horrible.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
My question is when you're when you decide to sleep
in another room, Let's say we do this, do we
have to create a second bedroom atmosphere?
Speaker 3 (16:50):
Yeah, Valanchai, what are you doing? I need to know
how often you're sleeping together, how often you're sleeping apart?
And also are we scheduling when we have sex? Like,
tell me how did works.
Speaker 5 (17:02):
Weekdays pretty much are in our own rooms. And then
weekends are in like one of each of our beds,
and we try to switch off. The goal was to
make sure that it doesn't feel like there's like that
one of our rooms becomes like the main room and
the others is like the backup.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
Right, when you do decide to meet up, it's always
in Kai's room, or it's always in Value room, right right.
Speaker 5 (17:27):
And I tend to have a more anxious attachment style.
And I have never really had my own bedroom. I've
always been sharing it with like a sibling or a parent.
And so for me, it's a new practice for me
to learn how like if I wake up in the
middle of the night from a nightmare, but I can
go and like crawl into VAL's bed and be comforted.
(17:48):
But also sometimes I'll wake up and be like having
this new new to me challenge of how do I
sue myself from this like nightmare has brought me this
set and of confidence in my ability to care for
myself and be with myself. And I think not to
speak for you, correct me if I'm wrong, but like
(18:08):
Val tends to air a little bit more towards avoidance, and.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
So are I see you Val, I see you nice
vow nice, Yeah, Adam, Adam will see you right there?
Speaker 4 (18:20):
I see you, Adam.
Speaker 5 (18:24):
And so the fact that we schedule sleepovers and are
intentional about it, I think also doesn't like give you
a reason to keep too much to yourself and to
have like that nice sense of like young people in
a relationship and being in almost like in community with
each other.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
That's really great.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
See what I worry about is the interesting I worried about.
Does it affect the sex life? Yes, doctor Troxel. What
does the data say about sex life and sleeping in
different rooms?
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Are those two things even related?
Speaker 4 (18:55):
For many couples, sex and good sex is actually scheduled.
It happen when it fits into your life, and you
have to be intentional about that. So just because a
couple doesn't choose to actually spend the night sleeping together
does not mean it's going to have a negative impact
on their sexual activity. And in fact, as Valanchine mentioned,
(19:16):
in the particular sleeping arrangement that works for them in
their relationship, I hear that there's this sort of freshness
of the separate bedrooms and then having sort of these
reunions on the weekends in either of their rooms that
can be very sexy and very fresh within a couple.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Oh wow. Yeah.
Speaker 6 (19:35):
Usually weekends are lately, as we're getting back into the
swing of things, are when we have sex.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
Because it's also.
Speaker 6 (19:42):
Like I know with my work schedule that like I
don't have to be like brain is moving in work
mode and that we're already planning to sleep in the
same room. But also there is a cool element since
we don't always sleep in the same room of like
spontaneity too, and if both of us are into it,
then there's kind of this this fun almost this like
(20:05):
it feels like you're like, uh, getting to getting to
jump back into like the early stages of our relationship
where I can like I can come over and I
can decide that like absolutely I wanna you know, we're
making out and we'll see what it turns into and
like that feels really cool too.
Speaker 5 (20:22):
Or there were times there's sometimes where like we are
intimate and then Bell was like okay and good nights,
and then that's how I like and it's.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
Honestly, I am into this, Yeah right.
Speaker 5 (20:35):
It's kind of it kind of indulges in a like
as you said, we are a very communicative, very gentle
loving couple, and there's something like fun about intimacy also
kind of like there's a fantasy sometimes of like okay
and see you tomorrow by.
Speaker 6 (20:47):
Right, right, Like I can I can send them home
when I want to do.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
Yeah, And that's also nice.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
It's like the best of both worlds. So great, you
look forward to it.
Speaker 6 (20:56):
I think of weekends a lot differently this setup where
we're sleeping over.
Speaker 4 (21:02):
I look forward to it.
Speaker 6 (21:03):
And like, if we're sleeping over on a Friday night,
it's almost like a given that we know on Saturday
morning we're gonna take our dog to our favorite, big
old place, and like it feels.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Like, yeah, right, it feels like a weekend.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
Right, it feels like a weekend. Oh man, you schedule sex,
you're in big trouble or you know you oh yeah,
this it's a very modern convention.
Speaker 4 (21:22):
Yeah, it's a very well yeah, I mean, you know,
back in the medieval times, it wasn't even it was
never ever the marital bed. It was really a communal
bed entire family, and certainly cultures around the world still
don't ascribe to the marital bed. They have you know,
family beds, and really sort of the stigma attached to
sleeping together versus a part has you know, waxed and waned,
you know, across the centuries. You know, it was day
(21:44):
Rare Gore and the Victorian era for couples to sleep
apart if you could afford it. Right, many couples don't
even have that as a choice, by the way, And
that was certainly true back in the day, and it
was really you know, you know, in the nineteen fifties
it was still sort of common for couples to sleep apart.
It was really around the nineteen sixties, the sexual Revolution
that we saw this strong swing towards equating you know,
(22:07):
the marital bed with you know, sleeping together in the
you know, literal sense was also the same as sleeping
together in the biblical sense that if you were not
sleeping together, you were not having sex as a couple.
And that's the stigma that we're still working through today.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Oh Wow, when you friends come over and you're like,
this is VAL's bedroom, this is Kay's bedroom, are people like,
what what are you doing? And do you feel like
you have to explain yourself?
Speaker 6 (22:32):
I think, especially with the older people in my life,
there's definitely a lot more Oh, okay, and you know
that they're confused and for them, they have been grown
into this idea that sleeping in suffer earms means that
something is wrong.
Speaker 5 (22:49):
What you said, Katie about people who are like, ooh, divorce, divorce, divorce.
Speaker 6 (22:55):
But what is a cool surprise is that I found
that when a lot of our friends come over to
our house and we see our separate rooms, we yet
to be the blueprint for them and kind of the
permission givers of like, oh, this is possible. And we've
had these conversations where a lot of our friends see
us as people they can turn to to process this
(23:16):
is something that they want in their relationship and be
able to give advice on what it looks like to
make that happen.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
What about betting? Does betting have any.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
Sort of like you know, well, the mattress industry is
definitely paying attention to the need for individualized preferences within
the shared bed, and that can solve many couples issues.
For instance, if they have different sort of firmness preferences
of the mattress, or one partner tends to toss and
turn or steal the sheets. There's even a method known
as the Scandinavian method, which is essentially two twin beds
(23:44):
put together equals a king and this is also sort
of satisfies many couples.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Oh, that explains the hotels in Europe, Katie.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
Yeah, exactly. Well, it's also a space issue. It's easier
to get two twin beds and two a room and
put them together then you know, lugging up a massive
king bed into a room. But this also does satisfy
some couples who are struggling still with the stigma. They
want the appearance of a marital bed of a shared bed,
but it actually because it's two twin beds, each partner
can have their own bedding and it's just one common
(24:14):
overlayer comforter. So yeah, we even have terminology sort of
to manage.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
These issues, right.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
That is fascinating because Katie, like Katie, is very cold
at night and she likes it to be warmer.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
She likes more sheets on her.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
And it's kind of a hard thing to navigate when
I want less sheets on me, because you kind of
have to like make like an s curve with the sheets,
like they've got to be on Katie and then come
down around me. I mean, that's a difficult thing. Wow, Katie,
this is interesting.
Speaker 4 (24:45):
Yeah, you guys might want to try the Scandinavian method
with individualized mattress pads that have heating and cooling elements.
There you go, that's that's my.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Trick I do.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
I did want to ask doctor Troxel another question, because
I feel like for some couples, the sex come in
the expense of sleep unlikely to be.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
Good sex, especially because Adam wants to do it late
at night and I like a shower hour, like once
you have kids. Yeah, if we have a date and
there's dinner and whatever, I'm like, while we're showering getting
ready to go to dinner, we do it, and then
we go to dinner. And then if I'm really full
and tired and just want to watch my programs.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Watch a little Yellowstone and pass out.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
There's really no right time to have sex, you know.
There's no like bedtime right before sleep or in the
morning or anything like that. Right, there's no like.
Speaker 4 (25:33):
Absolutely not no. I mean, and we know this from
extensive relationship research that in long term relationships, spontaneous sex
is really not how sex occurs for most couples. And sure,
there's probably times where if your schedules are so busy,
but you know the only time for you to have
sex with your partner is at night, and you both
(25:54):
consent to sacrificing a little bit of sleep. I imagine
it's not taking hours. I don't know, but sure, go
for it.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
Although I have to say sometimes to share in my
I don't know if this is weird about me, but
sometimes when we have sex and I have an orgasm,
I actually feel incredibly energized, Like I'm the opposite of Adam,
Like I can have an orgasm. He's asleep, and I'm like,
let's clean the house and do more laundry and pack
(26:22):
the dishes, like I'm just like.
Speaker 4 (26:24):
What you're saying is again, regardless of sleeping arrangement, it
is not true that all sex happens right before bed
or in the middle of the night. So being intentional,
including scheduling sex, doesn't make you a laying couple. It
makes you a real couple who have children or lives
or schedules. And actually being intentional about an activity that
(26:45):
it's such a sex that is really important for a relationship,
among many other things, being intentional about it and being
sort of mindful about when you're both going to enjoy
it the most. That's actually a really good thing for
a relationship, while also prioritizing, you know, the health of
your sleep, because that's really good for your overall emotional
and physical health and relational health as well.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Wow, thank you, doctor Troxel. Katie.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
We think we're talking about sleep, and we think we're
talking about love, and it turns out it's about communication,
and like so many other things when it comes to relationships,
it's communication that is the key.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
We are going to have a lot to talk about
tonight at dinner and I am stoked. So doctor Troxel,
thank you for being on Chasing Sleep.
Speaker 4 (27:29):
It's been such a pleasure. And thanks so much for having.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
Me and Val and Ki. Thank you for being on
our podcast.
Speaker 5 (27:35):
Thank you for having us.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
When we're in Brooklyn, we're getting dinner.
Speaker 4 (27:38):
Absolutely would be obsessed with that. Please let us.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
Oh that's definitely happening.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
What a start to our first episode of Chasing Sleep.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
I mean, if the.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Rest is going to be as mind blowing as this
one is, we are in for a wild ride.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Yes, And how much sleep and good quality sleep can
better affect our relationship, our communication skills and we just.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Kind of deal with all the difficulties of it. We
don't really ever talk about it.
Speaker 3 (28:08):
Look, obviously, VALANCHI are sleeping great because they are treating
each other beautifully.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
This is so true. I was really fascinated with the
idea that maybe choosing to sleep in different rooms or
different beds, or anything outside of the norm is not
necessarily an indicator for your relationship.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Pulling apart, if.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Anything, could be the key to having a healthy and
long relationship.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
I was really fascinated by the option, which I think
we could definitely adapt into our relationship about this, like
cuddle time before I go to sleep. I feel like
we miss out on that so much because I go
to sleep at ten and you go to sleep at
midnight or one. I feel like there's a debriefing of
the day, a physical touch and intimacy that may or
(28:56):
may not be sexual, but just that there's a can
a physical connection and a mental and spiritual connection that
can happen in the bedroom. That doesn't have to mean
that you have to go to bed at that time,
you know.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
I liked, you know, the removal of the stigma about
scheduling sex.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
I've always thought because I don't understand when you are
in a relationship like we are, and we do have
children and huge work lives, how you don't. I mean,
I'm just so glad we have the professional here to
tell us that that's okay and doesn't mean that anything
is wrong with our relationship.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
I'm glad that you and I are hosting this podcast
together because we had a chance to talk about these
things publicly. And it's really good to know that sometimes
you get energized after sex. I've never been awake to
see how you react to sex in any way, shape
or form. I'm usually gone.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
But what I liked about too is coming together for
the weekends is when you is when Kai and Val
meet up. That sounds so sexy. It sounds like how
things sort of were when we started dating at them,
and I would like meet you in Venice for the
weekend because we lived on opposite ends of Los Angeles.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Yeah, I don't know if our sex list was ever
better than when we lived on opposite ends of Los Angeles, right.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
Well, Also, we were twenty four years.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Old, no kids, no job, no homework, no no homework.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
At least we had seventeen jobs at that point, but
there was nothing we had to bring home.
Speaker 3 (30:18):
But I love the idea of their weekend being so sacred,
like their time together is very special and intentional.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
But I will say I kind of would love to
explore the idea of a bed that accommodates both of us.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
Yes, because you are hot, I am cold. You like
hard as a rock for your back, and I like
a little bit more of a softer, cozier, you know,
smushy vibe.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
You know this, This episode was really fascinating. I have
a feeling our next episode is going to be even
more fascinating. We're going to be talking about dreams.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
We've been logging our dreams, so get ready. If you
thought we were all vulnerable and letting it all hang out,
so to speak, in this episode, you ain't seen nothing yet.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
I have so many dreams I want to talk about
with me too.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
I feel like it could be a little uncomfortable. We're
gonna be a married couple talking about our dreams and
this is our subconsciousness and we're gonna be talking about
this with each other.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
This is wild.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
Oh yeah, baby, But enough about us.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Let's hear about you and what you think of us.
Go to your podcast player and rate and review Chasing Sleep.
Maybe even leave some comments about dreams you guys have
been have.
Speaker 3 (31:28):
That's a great idea. That's a great idea.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
And you could find us on social media.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
Yes, I am at kt q Low's on the Instagram and.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
I am at Shabby Shaps on the Instagram. Don't forget
to follow or subscribe so that you never miss an episode.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
Chasing Sleep is a production of Ruby Studios from iHeartMedia
in partnership with Mattress Firm. Our executive producer is Molly Soosha.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
This show was written and produced by Sound That Brands
Dave Beeson, Jason Jackson, and Michelle Rice.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
Chasing Sleep is hosted by Katie lows In the Adam
Shapiro and Until Next Time, hoping you're living your best
while sleeping your best. M
Katie, I've got a question for you.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Yeah, do you think we sleep better when we're sleeping
in the same bed or when we're not sleeping in
the same bed.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
I sleep better when you're in the bed because I'm
really cold and I put my cold feet on your
hot hot, too, hot body.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
I'm down for whatever results in bow chicka. Wow. Wow.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
When we go to sleep at the same time, there's
a better shot at it.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I can't believe you made this about going to sleep earlier.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Hi, everybody, I'm Katie Lows. I am an actor, a
podcast host, a mom, and honestly very tired most of
the time.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
And I'm Adam Shapiro, an actor, a pretzel maker, a
dad in Katie's husband.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
And this is Chasing Sleep, a production of Ruby Studios
from iHeartMedia in partnership with Mattress Firm. Everybody sleeps, and
sleep affects just about everything, our health, relationships, intimacy, being
patient with your kids, our work, and our play. In
this season of Chasing Sleep, we'll dig into the many
(01:03):
ways sleep impacts our lives and find out what's real
and what's myth.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
And we're going to talk to everyday people about real
life situations that lots of us encounter.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
And this is our first episode. Good luck, honey, let's
do it.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Let's get into it.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
This episode is about sleep and love. I'm so excited
to be co hosting with my husband.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Yeah, this is nice.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
It's like a built in date.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
I agree. You know, it's really nice when you're in
a relationship and you.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Can just do about anything together, you know, talking, laughing, eating, drinking, exercise,
raising kids. But you know what could be difficult, huh,
sleeping in the same bedroom together.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
We talked with some other couples to find out how
they're doing in the bedroom.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Don't you mean sleeping, I mean sleeping.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
In the bedroom.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
We've been together for thirteen years seven months today.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Forty years. Yeah, coming up on six years.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
The nicest thing about sharing a bed together is waking
up in the morning and kind of communicating and having
sort of that interaction. You know, we're a team and
it is nice to like be close to each other physically.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
I feel like we get to like online together and
just kind of like talk through what happened during the day.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
We can snuggle, but we can also have our own space.
Speaker 4 (02:20):
You like, will put his.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Arm around me, I just have to like push you off.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
You take the good with the bad.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
I definitely sleep better when I got my partner a bit.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
I just do.
Speaker 5 (02:29):
I do like having my partner next to me.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
Yeah, absolutely love sleeping next.
Speaker 6 (02:35):
To each other.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
It's the best.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
I think there's something comforting about your partners.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
It's like the balance. The bed needs some balance.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
That's very poetic. It's something that just feels good.
Speaker 4 (02:46):
And I just.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Genuinely and generally feel a lot happier being able to
sleep with my partner every singal night. I just have
so many questions about improving our sleep, our relationship to sleep,
our relationship to each other.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Like, for example, I sleep with a snorer?
Speaker 1 (03:06):
You do?
Speaker 4 (03:08):
Is it me?
Speaker 3 (03:09):
You Oudam Shapiro, you snore?
Speaker 6 (03:12):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Yeah, we're a married couple and sometimes we put each
other to sleep.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
That's that's healthy, right.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Unless we're having sex at the same time.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
It happens. Oh, we are going there.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
I am really excited to speak with today's guests. We
are joined by doctor Wendy M. Troxel. She is the
author of Sharing the Covers, Every Couple's Guide to Better Sleep.
Welcome doctor Wendy Troxel.
Speaker 4 (03:40):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited
to be here today with you all.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
I have so many questions for you about relationships.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Whoa I'm sure Katie does.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
We also have Kai Dates and Valerie Weisler here. They
are a very cool, happy couple from Brooklyn, New York.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Hi, Kai and Val, thank you.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
Happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Yeah, thanks for having us, Thanks for being here.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Guys, Kai and Val, you're young, You're in love. How
long have you two been together?
Speaker 6 (04:09):
We have been together since October twenty nineteen. Our first
date was a date we didn't know was a date
at the local ice cream parlor. So about three and
a half years now.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
And how long since you've moved in together?
Speaker 5 (04:22):
Previously because of lockdown with the pandemic, it was like
we were college students dating and then we were long
distance for I think like six months, right, and then
Val moved into my childhood home.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
With me for six months.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Got it.
Speaker 5 (04:36):
And then Val lived in Ireland for a year to
do her master's degree while I finished my undergrad degree.
Speaker 4 (04:42):
Wow, and now we live.
Speaker 5 (04:44):
Together in the same city.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
So now, in all these circumstances, have you ever felt
like your sleep quality is affecting?
Speaker 1 (04:54):
How the two of you get along as a couple.
Speaker 5 (04:57):
Yeah, I think I I am the person in our
relationship who has the most sleep issues. So I feel
drawn to start because I tend to have big meltdowns
when I'm tired. So I think I'm the one who's
(05:18):
most impacted emotionally by lack of sleep. I think for me,
I tend to have a pretty easy time falling asleep,
but a very hard time staying asleep, Like everything gets heightened.
And so I think I am a better communicator and
partner when I have my.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
Best sleep doctor.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Troxel. Since you're not just a relationships expert, but you're
so knowledgeable about how sleep affects relationships, help us understand
what sleep means for being happy as a couple.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
Oh, that's a loaded question. So the vast majority of
the study of sleep, the science of sleep, has focused
on sleep as this individual behavior, and yet that's not
how sleep occurs for most couples. After all, we spend
about a third of our lives asleep, so that's a
major part of our coupled existence. When we're sleep deprived
(06:14):
or sleep is disturbed, it really manifests quite obviously and
quite quickly in our moods, particularly our irritability levels.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Yes, you know, today's a perfect example. Our kiddos woke Oh,
we have two kids, five and two. They woke up
very early. They jumped out of their rooms, they jump
in our beds, and then it becomes sort of a
competition between me and Katie on who can stay in
the bed long enough without going crazy and getting up
and doing the morning with the kid.
Speaker 4 (06:42):
And that happens with a lot of couples for a
variety of different reasons. Children being just one of the
sleep disruptions that can disturb the sleep of a couple.
And again, this is where sleep in our relationships are
so intertwined because who's the person that you're most likely
to lash out at when you're irritable and sleep deprived.
Your partner, Right, you're able to rein that in a
(07:04):
little bit more when you're dealing with your boss, or
your friends or your colleagues, But it's your partner who
will face the brunt of that emotional dysregulation that we
know stems from in part from sleep deprivation.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
It's amazing how many fights Adam and I have been
together for seventeen years and how many fights we have
been in and sleep has never really been a topic
something that we should really like work on, and how
we sleep together. I mean, Adam and I talked about
(07:37):
briefly about, you know, snoring. How do you and I? VALANCHI,
I'm sure do you have personal stories about all of that?
Is somebody a snorer? Adam's a snorer? What about you?
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Only occasionally? This guy is too, We're both snores.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
What are your sleep sounds that wig each other up?
Speaker 5 (07:58):
I am a sleep talk I am too.
Speaker 6 (08:03):
I'll say the sleep talking is actually not a low
point for me. It's a high point because I think
that sleep talking is so funny and I don't sleep talk.
But growing up I was like, I hope that my
future partner sleep talk because I think that is just hilarious.
And I'm the night owl and the relationship so I'm
usually up later than Ty, And if I'm lucky, do.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
You get to catch it?
Speaker 6 (08:27):
I get to hear something weird that they say in
their sleep, a little gift, So that is a joy
for me. But then the snoring, I think both of
us have our own qualms about.
Speaker 4 (08:37):
The other person.
Speaker 5 (08:38):
Yeah, I think this was actually pretty recently, Val really
woke me up with some loud snoring, and I was
very aggressive in my half awake, half asleep, like stop it.
But then I found out from that because that was like,
I can't. I love you so much, I can't. I
(09:00):
believe you yelled at me the one time it happened
because you snore every night, and I had no idea
that I snore every night.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
Snoring is the disease of listeners, so it's not surprising
that because you were unaware.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Yeah, oh, that's so funny.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
I think sometimes I hurt Katie in that I'm I
go to bed so much later than she does. I'm
like sneaking in like an international spy, like a ninja.
Speaker 4 (09:27):
She's best laid plans.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Sometimes you come into bed and you just decide I
really want to snuggle her at one am.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
This is true, but I'm talking about the times that
I come in like a ninja.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
It seems to not matter.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
It seems like Katie always wakes up when I come in,
no matter how loud I get. But I can't go
to bed at the same time she does. That's just
not in my personality. My energy is not your biology.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
Yeah, doctor Troxel, what do you advise couples who don't
have same sleep schedules.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
The reality is, just because you fall in love with
human being doesn't mean you're automatically biologically going to be
syncd up in terms of your natural biologically driven sleep
wake rhythms or cir Katiean rhythms. Couples may decide for
this reason because their schedules are so different and the
sleep disruption when one partner comes to bed later is
(10:17):
so disruptive. They may even choose to sleep in separate bedrooms.
I have a number of strategies I talk about in
my book, the first of which, honestly, for couples, it's
often the time you spend together in bed before one
of you falls asleep. That's actually a really critical and
sacred time in the life of a relationship. So I
do recommend to couples that you try to preserve some
(10:39):
cuddle time together, that quiet time in bed, for instance,
before Katie you fall asleep at your natural earlier bedtime.
When it's time for you to go to sleep, Adam
leaves the room.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
I would be so much more game of cuddling you
at nine nine thirty than when he tries to sometimes
do that at one or and I'm so angry that
he's interrupted my big window.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
When you're not exhausted quite yet.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
Adam has no problem falling asleep at ten pm if
we've gotten after it. You know what I'm saying, Like seriously,
like he that is the only time he has no
problem falling asleep at ten or eleven is if he
has an orgasm.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Goodness, Yeah, we're going there.
Speaker 4 (11:21):
I'm not interested, right, I'll fall.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Asleep at three pm if you want to have sex, kated.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
I'm in a sexual mastery class for men right now,
you tell because I want it.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
During a silent auction at a charity event the other.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Day, I made him bid on it. I was like,
this sounds cool.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Well, I was in a bidding war with my friend
and then it became a joke, and then it became
a very expensive joke.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
But now I'm in this intense class. It's amazing.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
Did you already start it? Yeah, kiddy, I'm a mess,
I'm a blister, Okay.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Doctor Troxel, what does the data say about sex life
in sleeping? Does bad sleep kind of affect your sex life?
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Is that related? Yes?
Speaker 4 (12:04):
Yes, getting good quality sleep has profound impacts on our
sexual hormones like testosterone. In men, one study published in
the Journal of the American Medical Association, which is the
pre eminent medical journal, showed that men, healthy young men,
by the way, who sleep less than five hours per night,
showed a ten percent reduction in testosterone levels. And just
(12:28):
like to put that in perspective for you, that ten
percent reduction is the equivalent of aging a man hormonally
by about ten years, So a forty year old man
looks a bit more like a fifty year old man.
In terms of this critical of reproductive hormone. We see
similar hormonal effects in women and also effects on the
(12:50):
frequency and enjoyment of sexual activity among women. So for
each hour of extra sleep a woman gets, one study
showed to a fourteen percent increase in her enjoyment of
sexual activity and frequency. So there is a profound and
important couple level reason to prioritize sleep in the context
(13:13):
of your relationship. Sleep is good for sex, not to
mention all the emotional effects that come from being well slept. Frankly,
you know, we're all happier, funnier, better communicators when we're
well slept, which is also good for one's relational life
and one's sex life.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
This is a fascinating discussion and we are not done.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
More to come.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
We're back and I can't wait to get back to
this conversation with Kai and Val, our couple in Brooklyn,
and with sleep and Relationships expert doctor Wendy Troxel. There's
so much more that I want to find out. Kai
and Val, Can you tell us what's your sleeping arrangement
right now?
Speaker 6 (14:00):
Yes, we have separate rooms, but it didn't start from snoring.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Let's get into that.
Speaker 5 (14:08):
I think for various reasons, I toss and turn in
the middle of the night, but it's heightened when I'm
sharing a bed sometimes. So when that's the case, whether
or not it's because of vallis snoring or like just
the you know, additional heat of the room because there's
multiple bodies in it, or lack of space to sprawl,
(14:29):
like whatever.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Yeah, I want to get a little bit into the
snitty gritty because I'm absolutely fascinated by this. I can
remember working on Scandal and there's an actor who will
remain nameless on this podcast, but I knew wasn't sleeping
in the same bed as his wife, and I was like, loop.
Writing's on the wall divorce, divorce, divorce, and it's like
he's the worst snorer ever, Like it's awful. I know
(14:53):
this about him, and they're still married. So I'm like, Okay,
I think it's just amazing that you are, not that
you've barreled through.
Speaker 5 (15:03):
I think like at first I was sort of like
taken aback because I didn't really know anyone who does this,
and before I was able to like fully commit to it,
I think I had to do some like reworking of
what this sort of like nuclear family norm is of
(15:24):
like what a home space is supposed to look like
and what a bedroom is supposed to be and represent.
And I sat with that for a couple of days.
Speaker 6 (15:34):
I talked about it with my therapist, and I went
into therapy with the goal of, like get me out
of this mindset, like in forty five minutes, I want
to leave feeling comfortable sharing a room with my partner
because something clearly must be wrong with me that this
is my want. And then instead, my therapist, being a
good therapist, was like, actually, this is what you want.
It sounds like it's what you need, and that's okay.
(15:56):
I heard the term sleep divorce and we are not married.
But like, the shame is real. There was a lot
that I had to work through when I realized that
this was something I wanted. And I was raised with
this idea that you meet someone, you fall in love,
and then when you move in together, you're sharing a
room and you're creating a home, and feeling that I
needed to do something differently, Suddenly I was having all
(16:20):
of these wonders about myself and if something was wrong
with me, when in reality, this is one of the
best decisions I've made, not only for myself but also
for my relationship.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
We've heard the term sleep divorce, but that's a that's
not a divorce, that's like that's helping me.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
I know, it's such a negative connotation. It sounds horrible.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
My question is when you're when you decide to sleep
in another room, Let's say we do this, do we
have to create a second bedroom atmosphere?
Speaker 3 (16:50):
Yeah, Valanchai, what are you doing? I need to know
how often you're sleeping together, how often you're sleeping apart?
And also are we scheduling when we have sex? Like,
tell me how did works.
Speaker 5 (17:02):
Weekdays pretty much are in our own rooms. And then
weekends are in like one of each of our beds,
and we try to switch off. The goal was to
make sure that it doesn't feel like there's like that
one of our rooms becomes like the main room and
the others is like the backup.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
Right, when you do decide to meet up, it's always
in Kai's room, or it's always in Value room, right right.
Speaker 5 (17:27):
And I tend to have a more anxious attachment style.
And I have never really had my own bedroom. I've
always been sharing it with like a sibling or a parent.
And so for me, it's a new practice for me
to learn how like if I wake up in the
middle of the night from a nightmare, but I can
go and like crawl into VAL's bed and be comforted.
(17:48):
But also sometimes I'll wake up and be like having
this new new to me challenge of how do I
sue myself from this like nightmare has brought me this
set and of confidence in my ability to care for
myself and be with myself. And I think not to
speak for you, correct me if I'm wrong, but like
(18:08):
Val tends to air a little bit more towards avoidance, and.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
So are I see you Val, I see you nice
vow nice, Yeah, Adam, Adam will see you right there?
Speaker 4 (18:20):
I see you, Adam.
Speaker 5 (18:24):
And so the fact that we schedule sleepovers and are
intentional about it, I think also doesn't like give you
a reason to keep too much to yourself and to
have like that nice sense of like young people in
a relationship and being in almost like in community with
each other.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
That's really great.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
See what I worry about is the interesting I worried about.
Does it affect the sex life? Yes, doctor Troxel. What
does the data say about sex life and sleeping in
different rooms?
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Are those two things even related?
Speaker 4 (18:55):
For many couples, sex and good sex is actually scheduled.
It happen when it fits into your life, and you
have to be intentional about that. So just because a
couple doesn't choose to actually spend the night sleeping together
does not mean it's going to have a negative impact
on their sexual activity. And in fact, as Valanchine mentioned,
(19:16):
in the particular sleeping arrangement that works for them in
their relationship, I hear that there's this sort of freshness
of the separate bedrooms and then having sort of these
reunions on the weekends in either of their rooms that
can be very sexy and very fresh within a couple.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Oh wow. Yeah.
Speaker 6 (19:35):
Usually weekends are lately, as we're getting back into the
swing of things, are when we have sex.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
Because it's also.
Speaker 6 (19:42):
Like I know with my work schedule that like I
don't have to be like brain is moving in work
mode and that we're already planning to sleep in the
same room. But also there is a cool element since
we don't always sleep in the same room of like
spontaneity too, and if both of us are into it,
then there's kind of this this fun almost this like
(20:05):
it feels like you're like, uh, getting to getting to
jump back into like the early stages of our relationship
where I can like I can come over and I
can decide that like absolutely I wanna you know, we're
making out and we'll see what it turns into and
like that feels really cool too.
Speaker 5 (20:22):
Or there were times there's sometimes where like we are
intimate and then Bell was like okay and good nights,
and then that's how I like and it's.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
Honestly, I am into this, Yeah right.
Speaker 5 (20:35):
It's kind of it kind of indulges in a like
as you said, we are a very communicative, very gentle
loving couple, and there's something like fun about intimacy also
kind of like there's a fantasy sometimes of like okay
and see you tomorrow by.
Speaker 6 (20:47):
Right, right, Like I can I can send them home
when I want to do.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
Yeah, And that's also nice.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
It's like the best of both worlds. So great, you
look forward to it.
Speaker 6 (20:56):
I think of weekends a lot differently this setup where
we're sleeping over.
Speaker 4 (21:02):
I look forward to it.
Speaker 6 (21:03):
And like, if we're sleeping over on a Friday night,
it's almost like a given that we know on Saturday
morning we're gonna take our dog to our favorite, big
old place, and like it feels.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Like, yeah, right, it feels like a weekend.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
Right, it feels like a weekend. Oh man, you schedule sex,
you're in big trouble or you know you oh yeah,
this it's a very modern convention.
Speaker 4 (21:22):
Yeah, it's a very well yeah, I mean, you know,
back in the medieval times, it wasn't even it was
never ever the marital bed. It was really a communal
bed entire family, and certainly cultures around the world still
don't ascribe to the marital bed. They have you know,
family beds, and really sort of the stigma attached to
sleeping together versus a part has you know, waxed and waned,
you know, across the centuries. You know, it was day
(21:44):
Rare Gore and the Victorian era for couples to sleep
apart if you could afford it. Right, many couples don't
even have that as a choice, by the way, And
that was certainly true back in the day, and it
was really you know, you know, in the nineteen fifties
it was still sort of common for couples to sleep apart.
It was really around the nineteen sixties, the sexual Revolution
that we saw this strong swing towards equating you know,
(22:07):
the marital bed with you know, sleeping together in the
you know, literal sense was also the same as sleeping
together in the biblical sense that if you were not
sleeping together, you were not having sex as a couple.
And that's the stigma that we're still working through today.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Oh Wow, when you friends come over and you're like,
this is VAL's bedroom, this is Kay's bedroom, are people like,
what what are you doing? And do you feel like
you have to explain yourself?
Speaker 6 (22:32):
I think, especially with the older people in my life,
there's definitely a lot more Oh, okay, and you know
that they're confused and for them, they have been grown
into this idea that sleeping in suffer earms means that
something is wrong.
Speaker 5 (22:49):
What you said, Katie about people who are like, ooh, divorce, divorce, divorce.
Speaker 6 (22:55):
But what is a cool surprise is that I found
that when a lot of our friends come over to
our house and we see our separate rooms, we yet
to be the blueprint for them and kind of the
permission givers of like, oh, this is possible. And we've
had these conversations where a lot of our friends see
us as people they can turn to to process this
(23:16):
is something that they want in their relationship and be
able to give advice on what it looks like to
make that happen.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
What about betting? Does betting have any.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
Sort of like you know, well, the mattress industry is
definitely paying attention to the need for individualized preferences within
the shared bed, and that can solve many couples issues.
For instance, if they have different sort of firmness preferences
of the mattress, or one partner tends to toss and
turn or steal the sheets. There's even a method known
as the Scandinavian method, which is essentially two twin beds
(23:44):
put together equals a king and this is also sort
of satisfies many couples.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Oh, that explains the hotels in Europe, Katie.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
Yeah, exactly. Well, it's also a space issue. It's easier
to get two twin beds and two a room and
put them together then you know, lugging up a massive
king bed into a room. But this also does satisfy
some couples who are struggling still with the stigma. They
want the appearance of a marital bed of a shared bed,
but it actually because it's two twin beds, each partner
can have their own bedding and it's just one common
(24:14):
overlayer comforter. So yeah, we even have terminology sort of
to manage.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
These issues, right.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
That is fascinating because Katie, like Katie, is very cold
at night and she likes it to be warmer.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
She likes more sheets on her.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
And it's kind of a hard thing to navigate when
I want less sheets on me, because you kind of
have to like make like an s curve with the sheets,
like they've got to be on Katie and then come
down around me. I mean, that's a difficult thing. Wow, Katie,
this is interesting.
Speaker 4 (24:45):
Yeah, you guys might want to try the Scandinavian method
with individualized mattress pads that have heating and cooling elements.
There you go, that's that's my.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Trick I do.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
I did want to ask doctor Troxel another question, because
I feel like for some couples, the sex come in
the expense of sleep unlikely to be.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
Good sex, especially because Adam wants to do it late
at night and I like a shower hour, like once
you have kids. Yeah, if we have a date and
there's dinner and whatever, I'm like, while we're showering getting
ready to go to dinner, we do it, and then
we go to dinner. And then if I'm really full
and tired and just want to watch my programs.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Watch a little Yellowstone and pass out.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
There's really no right time to have sex, you know.
There's no like bedtime right before sleep or in the
morning or anything like that. Right, there's no like.
Speaker 4 (25:33):
Absolutely not no. I mean, and we know this from
extensive relationship research that in long term relationships, spontaneous sex
is really not how sex occurs for most couples. And sure,
there's probably times where if your schedules are so busy,
but you know the only time for you to have
sex with your partner is at night, and you both
(25:54):
consent to sacrificing a little bit of sleep. I imagine
it's not taking hours. I don't know, but sure, go
for it.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
Although I have to say sometimes to share in my
I don't know if this is weird about me, but
sometimes when we have sex and I have an orgasm,
I actually feel incredibly energized, Like I'm the opposite of Adam,
Like I can have an orgasm. He's asleep, and I'm like,
let's clean the house and do more laundry and pack
(26:22):
the dishes, like I'm just like.
Speaker 4 (26:24):
What you're saying is again, regardless of sleeping arrangement, it
is not true that all sex happens right before bed
or in the middle of the night. So being intentional,
including scheduling sex, doesn't make you a laying couple. It
makes you a real couple who have children or lives
or schedules. And actually being intentional about an activity that
(26:45):
it's such a sex that is really important for a relationship,
among many other things, being intentional about it and being
sort of mindful about when you're both going to enjoy
it the most. That's actually a really good thing for
a relationship, while also prioritizing, you know, the health of
your sleep, because that's really good for your overall emotional
and physical health and relational health as well.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Wow, thank you, doctor Troxel. Katie.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
We think we're talking about sleep, and we think we're
talking about love, and it turns out it's about communication,
and like so many other things when it comes to relationships,
it's communication that is the key.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
We are going to have a lot to talk about
tonight at dinner and I am stoked. So doctor Troxel,
thank you for being on Chasing Sleep.
Speaker 4 (27:29):
It's been such a pleasure. And thanks so much for having.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
Me and Val and Ki. Thank you for being on
our podcast.
Speaker 5 (27:35):
Thank you for having us.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
When we're in Brooklyn, we're getting dinner.
Speaker 4 (27:38):
Absolutely would be obsessed with that. Please let us.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
Oh that's definitely happening.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
What a start to our first episode of Chasing Sleep.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
I mean, if the.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Rest is going to be as mind blowing as this
one is, we are in for a wild ride.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Yes, And how much sleep and good quality sleep can
better affect our relationship, our communication skills and we just.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Kind of deal with all the difficulties of it. We
don't really ever talk about it.
Speaker 3 (28:08):
Look, obviously, VALANCHI are sleeping great because they are treating
each other beautifully.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
This is so true. I was really fascinated with the
idea that maybe choosing to sleep in different rooms or
different beds, or anything outside of the norm is not
necessarily an indicator for your relationship.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Pulling apart, if.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Anything, could be the key to having a healthy and
long relationship.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
I was really fascinated by the option, which I think
we could definitely adapt into our relationship about this, like
cuddle time before I go to sleep. I feel like
we miss out on that so much because I go
to sleep at ten and you go to sleep at
midnight or one. I feel like there's a debriefing of
the day, a physical touch and intimacy that may or
(28:56):
may not be sexual, but just that there's a can
a physical connection and a mental and spiritual connection that
can happen in the bedroom. That doesn't have to mean
that you have to go to bed at that time,
you know.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
I liked, you know, the removal of the stigma about
scheduling sex.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
I've always thought because I don't understand when you are
in a relationship like we are, and we do have
children and huge work lives, how you don't. I mean,
I'm just so glad we have the professional here to
tell us that that's okay and doesn't mean that anything
is wrong with our relationship.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
I'm glad that you and I are hosting this podcast
together because we had a chance to talk about these
things publicly. And it's really good to know that sometimes
you get energized after sex. I've never been awake to
see how you react to sex in any way, shape
or form. I'm usually gone.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
But what I liked about too is coming together for
the weekends is when you is when Kai and Val
meet up. That sounds so sexy. It sounds like how
things sort of were when we started dating at them,
and I would like meet you in Venice for the
weekend because we lived on opposite ends of Los Angeles.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Yeah, I don't know if our sex list was ever
better than when we lived on opposite ends of Los Angeles, right.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
Well, Also, we were twenty four years.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Old, no kids, no job, no homework, no no homework.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
At least we had seventeen jobs at that point, but
there was nothing we had to bring home.
Speaker 3 (30:18):
But I love the idea of their weekend being so sacred,
like their time together is very special and intentional.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
But I will say I kind of would love to
explore the idea of a bed that accommodates both of us.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
Yes, because you are hot, I am cold. You like
hard as a rock for your back, and I like
a little bit more of a softer, cozier, you know,
smushy vibe.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
You know this, This episode was really fascinating. I have
a feeling our next episode is going to be even
more fascinating. We're going to be talking about dreams.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
We've been logging our dreams, so get ready. If you
thought we were all vulnerable and letting it all hang out,
so to speak, in this episode, you ain't seen nothing yet.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
I have so many dreams I want to talk about
with me too.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
I feel like it could be a little uncomfortable. We're
gonna be a married couple talking about our dreams and
this is our subconsciousness and we're gonna be talking about
this with each other.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
This is wild.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
Oh yeah, baby, But enough about us.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Let's hear about you and what you think of us.
Go to your podcast player and rate and review Chasing Sleep.
Maybe even leave some comments about dreams you guys have
been have.
Speaker 3 (31:28):
That's a great idea. That's a great idea.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
And you could find us on social media.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
Yes, I am at kt q Low's on the Instagram and.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
I am at Shabby Shaps on the Instagram. Don't forget
to follow or subscribe so that you never miss an episode.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
Chasing Sleep is a production of Ruby Studios from iHeartMedia
in partnership with Mattress Firm. Our executive producer is Molly Soosha.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
This show was written and produced by Sound That Brands
Dave Beeson, Jason Jackson, and Michelle Rice.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
Chasing Sleep is hosted by Katie lows In the Adam
Shapiro and Until Next Time, hoping you're living your best
while sleeping your best. M
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