July 11, 2023 • 24 mins
Hosts Katie Lowes and Adam Shapiro explore the fundamental relationship between our sleep and nature in the finale of Season 2 of “Chasing Sleep.” Discover how losing our bond to nature has impaired our ability to get quality restorative sleep. Episode guests Richard Louv, author of the influential book “Last Child in the Woods” and Sleep psychologist Dr Jade Wu discuss how to prevent “Nature Deficit Disorder”, ways to improve sleep by harnessing the power of nature and the potential impacts of climate change and urbanization on sleep patterns. Could “green exercise,” forest bathing, or sunrise alarm clocks offer the key to better rest?
“Chasing Sleep” is a production of Ruby Studios from iHeartMedia in partnership with Mattress Firm.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Kitty. Do you remember our last camping trip?
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Oh, let me think about that. No, because Adam, we
don't camp. So do you mean the last time the
power was out of the house.
Speaker 3 (00:11):
Yes, Like I said, camping exactly. And you hear people
talk about getting back to nature, but in this modern
world that we are in, what you and I need
are practical ways to sleep more naturally, and we would
like to know would this improve our lives?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
This is a super important episode because come on, it's like,
if we can be more connected to nature and actually
connected to each other, I don't know. I have a
feeling that it's going to help us stay healthy, including
having healthier sleep.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
I'm Katie Low's.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
And I'm Adam Shapiro and this is Chasing Sleep, a
production of Ruby Studios from iHeartMedia in partnership with Mattress Firm.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
In this episode, we're exploring the bare naked truth about
our big, beautiful world, our sleep, and how it's all connected.
In fact, Adam, we've been trying to connect our sleep
more to the world outside by seeing if we can
sink our bodies natural rhythms to the sunrise and sunset rise, sunset.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
That's right, you and I have been using these sunrise.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Alarm clocks and we're really into them.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
I think it's been amazing.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Our guests today are going to help us understand the
relationship between nature and health and getting good sleep.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
With us today is doctor Jade Wu. Doctor Wu is
a brilliant sleep psychologist, a Board certified behavioral sleep medicine specialist,
a sleep advisor to Mattress Firm, and I just always
find her insights fascinating when she's here on Chasing Sleep.
Speaker 4 (01:44):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Also, let's welcome Richard Louve.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
He has away with words and a reverence for nature.
He's a journalist and an author of several books that
have inspired people around the world to reconnect with nature.
Welcome to Chasing Sleep.
Speaker 5 (02:01):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
We love the title of your book, Last Child in
the Woods, Saving our children from nature deficit disorder.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Can you just explain what is nature deficit disorder.
Speaker 5 (02:12):
It's not a known medical diagnosis. Maybe it should be,
but it's a way to look at the disengagement of
children and adults because children happen to grow up from
the natural world. That's happened really very quickly, particularly in
the last few decades. There's some particular reasons, and it's
not so much a measure of illness as it is
(02:33):
a way to talk about what happens when you take
the good stuff of nature away from kids and the
rest of us.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Is there an effect of nature deficit disorder on sleep?
Speaker 5 (02:45):
Doctor Woom probably knows more about that than I do.
There's at least a couple studies that suggests that, particularly
for men at over sixty five, which would include me,
that spending more time outside helps us sleep better.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Let's throw that over to you, Jade, I mean, does
it affect good sleep?
Speaker 1 (03:05):
You know? How are these two related? Oh?
Speaker 4 (03:07):
Yeah, I definitely think so. So. First of all, just
on a personal level, the time of my life when
I slept the best by far, was when I was
living in this Swiss organic farm and farming during the
day and sleeping in this cabin by night. And I
napped for about an hour every day and slept the
best sleep of my life for about eight and a
(03:28):
half hours at night every night. Part of it is
because I was doing hard labor during the day, and
part of it was because it was the freshest air,
it was the best sunlight during the day. The freshest
food I ever ate. Just being close to animals and
being close to plants, and just going with the rhythm
of the mountains around me. It was just magical. So absolutely,
(03:48):
I strongly believe there's a correlation between being close to
nature and sleeping well. And there's actually a couple of
good scientific reasons for that. One is, we are diurnal animals.
We really really need sunlight during the day and darkness
at night for our circadian rhythms to function well. So
if you get lots of sunlight during the day and
(04:10):
not too much light at night, then your circadian rhythms
are very happy. And when they're happy, they make you
sleep well at night and wake well during the day.
Speaker 5 (04:19):
But I have to add I don't sleep well. I
need to spend more time outside. And just because you're
I live in a very natural area. There are mountain
lions in our yard. But this morning I woke up
because a woodpecker was banging outside of the house.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
So in that case, nature is not necessarily helping you
sleep better when the woodpecker is pecking on the.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Side of your house.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Rich and doctor WU like, is there something about feeling
connected to nature? Feeling connected to other species, how does
that help us sleep better well?
Speaker 4 (04:53):
In addition to being diurnal animals, we're also pack animals, right,
So a big part of sleeping well at night is
also just feeling connected and feeling safe during the day.
So if we have our social interactions with other people,
and if we feel connected to the people and animals
and nature around us, then we feel much more safe
(05:14):
and calm.
Speaker 5 (05:15):
There's a great conversation going on all around us. In
recent years, the more research that's been done on how
animals and trees communicate, sometimes between each other in the
same species, sometimes across species, including with us. When we
pay attention to that, we feel less alone and we
(05:35):
feel calmed rich.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
You suggested something called green exercise. What does that look like.
Speaker 5 (05:42):
Well, some of the studies have shown that when people
do the same exercise and in fact burn exactly the
same number of calories in an indoor gym, for instance,
on a treadmill, compared when they expend or burn the
exact same number of calories they do it outside gardening
or hiking or something like that, there's a significant difference.
(06:06):
It's improvement in terms of well being and a number
of other indicators. So some people call it green exercise
and actually market it that way that there are green
exercise groups, particularly in Europe. It's something that I think
is caught on to a degree in the US.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Really cool.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
I've heard of forest bathing, which is like a Japanese concept.
Is that similar to what you're talking about.
Speaker 5 (06:30):
Well, that's a form of therapy in a sense.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Can I ask what exactly is forest bathing?
Speaker 4 (06:37):
I think the Japanese name is shinin yoku. That's it,
And I think it just literally means bathing in the forest,
and it doesn't have to be very complicated. You just
go into a forest and allow the trees to surround you.
You experience the feeling of the soil under your feet
as you're walking, the breeze on your face, and you
(06:57):
hear the sounds of the forest. It gives us such
rich material to really experience with our five senses, and
that really slows down our heart rate. It decreases our
blood pressures, our cortisol level goes down. The whole sympathetic
nervous system, which is the fight or flight system, calms
down a little bit. It's like you're telling your body
(07:19):
that you're safe, that it's okay to let your guard down.
Speaker 5 (07:22):
There are a couple of reasons the way that's good.
One is all the reasons that makes sleep better when
they're in nature, but also because people bring their souls
to nature in ways they don't usually. Our relationship with
trees works on two levels. One is that some of
the chemicals released by trees actually are calming to us.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Oh wow.
Speaker 5 (07:48):
But the other reason is that people act different when
they're around trees, and so force bathing. You go out
there with a group and you have a therapist, you
and we were asked to go out and pick a tree,
any tree. And I know this sounds like tree hugging,
which is highly underrated. But pick a tree and spend
(08:09):
some time with it, and then come back to the group,
sit in a circle, and why did you learn? What
did you feel in the tree?
Speaker 2 (08:17):
I want to do that immediately, Adam. I mean, it
could really help us feel connected to nature and improve
our sleep too. But for those of us who live
in places like Los Angeles, it's not that easy to
go forest bathing every day. I mean, Am I right?
Speaker 4 (08:31):
Yeah, it would be ideal if you could get out
to nature every once in a while. You know, like say,
on weekends if you can go hiking. But I think
there are ways to maybe focus on the quality rather
than the quantity as well, like even if you have
a house plant, spending some time with your plants, with
the little bits of nature that you do have, and
being really mindful, being in the moment and allowing your
(08:53):
senses to really experience whatever little bit of nature there is.
And then maybe on a more logistical level, you know,
have black house curtains at night to keep out the
traffic lights and whatnot, and throw your windows wide open
during the day for that sunshine and fresh air. If
you can bring as much of the rhythms of nature
(09:13):
to your home as possible.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
You know, I always wonder like, is it possible to
use technology to replace nature in our homes? You know,
like we'll do a little like bird sounds or ocean sounds.
Can we trick our body in a way into feeling
like that we're really in nature even though it's a
computer generated sound.
Speaker 5 (09:34):
There is some evidence that technological substitutions can work a
little bit like watching nature videos, but there's a limit
to that. Better approach really is the town that I
live in, Julia and California is a dark sky community.
There's an organized effort around the country to commit to
(09:55):
certain kinds of bulbs and turning off lights at night
out side. Oh wow, my son came and visited and
looked up at the sky and said it was the
first time he could smell the stars. I mean, it
was that vivid to him. But also within cities, conservation
is no longer enough. Now we need to create nature.
(10:15):
As strange as that sounds, and there are a lot
of efforts around the world to change cities to have
many more trees, not only for carbon sequestration, but for
the kinds of things we're talking about, the health benefits
of that connection of nature. We can find nature in cities.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
So how do we create nature inside the rooms we
sleep in.
Speaker 5 (10:41):
There's something called biophilic design and biophilic architecture. It's based
on the biophilia hypothesis of EO. Wilson at Harvard, which
holds that we are hardwired genetically for an affiliation with nature,
and when we don't get enough of it, we don't
do so well. Biophilic architecture actually brings plants into the workplace.
(11:03):
For example, can be your home or school, as well
your plants climbing inside walls or outside walls, outside the windows.
And what the biophilic architecture is revealing in the research
is that people who work in biophilically designed workplaces are
far more productive. Sick time goes down, turnover gets better,
(11:24):
everything gets better.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
That's fascinating, doctor Wu.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
How do you bring nature into your bedrooms? You have
suggestions and advice.
Speaker 4 (11:33):
Sure, so, I'm very lucky to live in a pretty
green neighborhood. We all have big trees in our yards
and whatnot, and it's pretty quiet at night, so I
open the windows and I let the night sounds and
the fresh air come in. And in fact, I personally
feel a huge difference when the windows are open versus not.
(11:54):
So there are seasons of the year when I sleep
worse or better depending on whether the weather allows me
to open the windows, and I make my room very
very dark, I blackout curtains. Yeah, those are sort of
my main ways of doing it. If I had more
where withal and I didn't have a one year old
and three year old, I definitely have a lot more
plans as well, But for now that's what we've got.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
This is a fascinating discussion and we are not done
more to come. Welcome back to Chasing Sleep. We are
learning about nature's connection to sleep with author and journalist
Richard Louve and sleep specialist doctor Jade Wu. You know,
we're talking about getting close to nature, but nature around
(12:39):
us is changing drastically with climate change. How is that
affecting the way that we sleep?
Speaker 4 (12:47):
This is something that my colleagues and I in the
sleep community are very concerned about. There's the obvious one,
which is that when temperatures get hotter, it's harder to sleep.
Our bodies do need to cool down during the night
in order to sleep well, so your body temperature stays higher.
That's the obvious one. But then there are also less
obvious ones, like the stress from mass migration events and
(13:13):
people losing their homes to extreme weather events, and people
losing their jobs and their lives being upended from you know,
the economic and social disruptions from climate change, and of
course the nature that is destroyed and the human communities
that are destroyed by climate change just adds every layer
of stress possible to body, mind, spirit, emotional well being.
(13:37):
So yeah, we are actually quite concerned about climate change.
And what it will do to every aspect of health,
but sleep in particular.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
Yikes, who stands to you know, have their sleep most
disrupted by climate change?
Speaker 4 (13:51):
We already have plenty of studies showing that the amount
of green space in a neighborhood is directly correlated to
how many hours people sleep, Like they did studies with
satellite imagery to count up what percentage of the neighborhood
is green, and that directly relates to how many hours
people are sleeping and how often people having sleep problems.
(14:11):
You know, it's things like walkability of your neighborhood. So yeah,
it's the people who have less control over their environment.
So folks who are lower income, who are in less
affluent areas older people. Yeah, it's the people who are
least privileged who will be most affected.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Are these the things rich that bring on the solestalgia?
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Did I do it?
Speaker 4 (14:37):
Rich?
Speaker 5 (14:37):
Solistalgia is a term that was created by an eco
philosopher in Australia and Glenn albrit And basically, when you
feel solistalgic, you are feeling a kind of intense homesickness
for the home around you. The nature is being destroyed.
(15:00):
It's not for the past. It's for the present that
is changing so quickly and the loss of nature. I
think a lot of us suffer from that. One of
the reasons also psychologically, and this is connected to climate
change and biodiversity collapse, which go together, is the fact
(15:21):
of the growing amount of eco anxiety. It's called different
things ecological depression. But it's no accident that as the
pandemic began to ease, the trailheads were packed with people.
Speaker 6 (15:33):
Yes, the parks were overwhelmed, some of them by the
number of people that were Yes, finally rediscovering nature. Folks
are really worried about that, and the healthcare profession, as
Jade said, in communities that have a lot less than
nature that taking nature away from people is a life
(15:54):
and death issue.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
And doctor Wu, do you have any thoughts on how
this sort of eco depression that is probably collectively happening,
how that's affecting our sleep, how we can try to
combat it.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
Yeah, it's definitely related to sleep. I think often people
may not consciously realize that when they're having insomnia or
having difficulty sleeping that it's related to this. They just say, oh,
I just can't shut off my mind, or I just
can't relax. Just something's bothering me, and I can't really
put my finger on it. And I think there is
(16:33):
some longing for connection or simplicity or just I always
start with mindfulness of just take what you do have
in terms of nature and connect with that.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Yes, clearing the mind is.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
What it's all about, all right, Adam and I want
to share a little experiment we've been conducting. We have
a new alarm clock that projects light during the day
and at night. It is dark.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
Blue light, and the color of the light changes and
it kind of gives us a wouldn't you say, Katie,
It's like a sped up sunset.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
What I think about it is that at least in
the midst of this Los Angeles concrete jungle that we
live in, we've been experimenting with this alarm clock and
I like it. I really do.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
He love it.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
Yeah. So, there's research showing that having light in the mornings,
even when you're still sleeping your eyes are closed, about
ten percent of the light goes through your eyelids. So
if you have a light that's kind of gradually getting
brighter and brighter, some of that light is going through
to your brain. And giving it sort of a gentle
forewarning like okay, adam, it might be time to get
(17:43):
up soon, and you know, you get a bit of
a warning and your brain likes that, right. And also
as a night owl, the best way to shift your
circadian phase, as in, you know, make yourself more of
a morning person, is to have bright light first thing
in the morning. And so if you're starting that even
before you open your eyes, that can actually make your
(18:03):
sleep inertia a little bit better. And sleep inertia is
that draggy feeling that like the half hour an hour
that it takes for you to fully wake up, like
you're sledging through mud. That gets better if you have
that light wake you up.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
That's great to know.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Rich thoughts about such clock, these clocks that are being
offered these days that have birds and ocean sounds and
a light that goes like a sunset at night down
to blue and can put on a sort of sunrise.
What are your opinions on such clock?
Speaker 5 (18:37):
If it works, it's great, And that sounds like it
works for you. I have a woodpecker I can loan
you too for waking up, you know, during the pandemic,
And I wrote a piece for the like times about this.
People started looking out their windows when they were in seclusion,
and they were noticing that there were birds out there.
(18:58):
Now they knew they were out there already, but they
didn't really know. And they started connecting with those birds,
their kids did, and they did not feel so alone.
They felt a sense of solace and connection. And that
has to do with this the loneliness epidemic. The medical
(19:19):
community is really quite worried about loneliness as a source
of disease. It turns out many of the same diseases
that are associated with obesity and with smoking happened when
people are extremely lonely, when they're very isolated. And many
of the reasons that are given for this happen to
(19:40):
be exactly the same ones that keep kids indoors too much, electronics,
cities that are designed for cars, not for nature for people,
and the list goes on. I would add another factor
to that list of causes for the extreme epidemic and
human isolation all over the world, particularly in in countries
(20:00):
like ours, which is species loneliness. I think that deep
within this is a deep desire to not feel alone
in the universe.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Wow beautifully said in terms.
Speaker 5 (20:11):
Of climate change and the eco anxiety which keeps a
lot of people away. We need something that I call
imaginative hope. I think we need to begin to imagine
what would it be like to have a nature rich
home that would help us leave better. I just wanted
to add that there's a lot of good news. In
twenty ten, I was asked to give thee to the
(20:31):
American Academy of Pediatrics, about five thousand pediatricians their annual meeting.
And at first I thought, why me, nature deficit disorder. Really,
it's not even a known medical diagnosis. And I was
nervous before I went up to San Francisco to give this,
and my wife, who is a nurse practitioner, took my
(20:51):
face in her hands. They said, listen to me, Rich,
pediatricians are different from other doctors. They're really nice people.
Oh except for doctors like Jade. And so I led
with that line and I was off to a good
start with the pediatricians. I suggested, how about if you guys,
(21:14):
men and women begin to prescribe nature, literally write prescriptions.
There was a little of that going on already, and
they went back, many of them and started doing that.
There's a guy named doctor Robert Tzar from Washington, d C.
Who went back. He literally started writing prescriptions to his
families for spending time on the side of nature. Then
(21:36):
he's got the other pediatricians in DC to do it,
and then they took the next step. They created a
database of all the parks and open spaces in d C.
So the doc could not only write the prescription literally,
but could turn to the computer and say, there's a
park a block and a half from your house. Here's
what you can do there. I was puzzled by that.
Why that happened with the pediatricians, and it was later
(21:59):
explained to me that pediatricians are so deeply frustrated. They
see mortalities every day, morbidities every day among children that
they can't deal with. Not only that, but every day
they write prescriptions to pharmaceuticals. So they already have a
sense that somehow we're missing the boat in so many ways,
(22:20):
and they're frustrated, so they took to this.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
That's amazing.
Speaker 5 (22:24):
So there's lots of things happening.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
Yeah, collectively, I think we could probably use some of
that imaginative hope to help us to sleep more peacefully.
At night.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Well, that is very hopeful.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
I appreciate that as a parent and as the host
of Chasing Sleep.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Thank you, doctor Wu and Rich so much.
Speaker 5 (22:43):
Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
What a beautiful way. Let me just say to end
the season, this.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
One might have caused the most changed to our lives.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
I feel it if we connect with nature and we
connect with each other, we are going to sleep better.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
It's that simple.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
I'm so grateful because I think so much of the
information in today's episode and all the episodes are really
life changing in ways that are doable.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
I would agree with that.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
This has been such a gift, and I want to
thank everybody that is listening for connecting with us on
season two of Chasing Sleep.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
I think every episode we learn so many practical, life
changing things to better our individual lives, our family's life, and.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Our marriage and our sleep.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Like, is everyone vibing this?
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Uh, We're vibing.
Speaker 3 (23:35):
And if you liked this episode and you missed a
few of the others, feel free to binge listen.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
We will not judge. Plus, we want to hear from you.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
Yes, go to your podcast player of choice and rate
and review the show and tell us what you think.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Katie tell them your social.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
My social is kt Q. Low's on the Gram.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Yeah, and I'm on the Gram too. I'm much shabby Shaps.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Don't forget to follow or subscribe for future episodes.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Until next time.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
I hope you're living your best while sleeping your best.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Chasing Sleep is a production of Ruby Studios from iHeartMedia
in partnership with Mattress Firm. Our executive producer is Molly Sosha.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
This show was written and produced by Sound That Brands
Dave Beeson, Jason Jackson, and Michelle Rice.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Chasing Sleep is hosted by Katie Lows and Adam Shapiro.
That's Us. Thank you to our partners at Mattress Firm.
Kitty. Do you remember our last camping trip?
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Oh, let me think about that. No, because Adam, we
don't camp. So do you mean the last time the
power was out of the house.
Speaker 3 (00:11):
Yes, Like I said, camping exactly. And you hear people
talk about getting back to nature, but in this modern
world that we are in, what you and I need
are practical ways to sleep more naturally, and we would
like to know would this improve our lives?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
This is a super important episode because come on, it's like,
if we can be more connected to nature and actually
connected to each other, I don't know. I have a
feeling that it's going to help us stay healthy, including
having healthier sleep.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
I'm Katie Low's.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
And I'm Adam Shapiro and this is Chasing Sleep, a
production of Ruby Studios from iHeartMedia in partnership with Mattress Firm.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
In this episode, we're exploring the bare naked truth about
our big, beautiful world, our sleep, and how it's all connected.
In fact, Adam, we've been trying to connect our sleep
more to the world outside by seeing if we can
sink our bodies natural rhythms to the sunrise and sunset rise, sunset.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
That's right, you and I have been using these sunrise.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Alarm clocks and we're really into them.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
I think it's been amazing.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Our guests today are going to help us understand the
relationship between nature and health and getting good sleep.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
With us today is doctor Jade Wu. Doctor Wu is
a brilliant sleep psychologist, a Board certified behavioral sleep medicine specialist,
a sleep advisor to Mattress Firm, and I just always
find her insights fascinating when she's here on Chasing Sleep.
Speaker 4 (01:44):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Also, let's welcome Richard Louve.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
He has away with words and a reverence for nature.
He's a journalist and an author of several books that
have inspired people around the world to reconnect with nature.
Welcome to Chasing Sleep.
Speaker 5 (02:01):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
We love the title of your book, Last Child in
the Woods, Saving our children from nature deficit disorder.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Can you just explain what is nature deficit disorder.
Speaker 5 (02:12):
It's not a known medical diagnosis. Maybe it should be,
but it's a way to look at the disengagement of
children and adults because children happen to grow up from
the natural world. That's happened really very quickly, particularly in
the last few decades. There's some particular reasons, and it's
not so much a measure of illness as it is
(02:33):
a way to talk about what happens when you take
the good stuff of nature away from kids and the
rest of us.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Is there an effect of nature deficit disorder on sleep?
Speaker 5 (02:45):
Doctor Woom probably knows more about that than I do.
There's at least a couple studies that suggests that, particularly
for men at over sixty five, which would include me,
that spending more time outside helps us sleep better.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Let's throw that over to you, Jade, I mean, does
it affect good sleep?
Speaker 1 (03:05):
You know? How are these two related? Oh?
Speaker 4 (03:07):
Yeah, I definitely think so. So. First of all, just
on a personal level, the time of my life when
I slept the best by far, was when I was
living in this Swiss organic farm and farming during the
day and sleeping in this cabin by night. And I
napped for about an hour every day and slept the
best sleep of my life for about eight and a
(03:28):
half hours at night every night. Part of it is
because I was doing hard labor during the day, and
part of it was because it was the freshest air,
it was the best sunlight during the day. The freshest
food I ever ate. Just being close to animals and
being close to plants, and just going with the rhythm
of the mountains around me. It was just magical. So absolutely,
(03:48):
I strongly believe there's a correlation between being close to
nature and sleeping well. And there's actually a couple of
good scientific reasons for that. One is, we are diurnal animals.
We really really need sunlight during the day and darkness
at night for our circadian rhythms to function well. So
if you get lots of sunlight during the day and
(04:10):
not too much light at night, then your circadian rhythms
are very happy. And when they're happy, they make you
sleep well at night and wake well during the day.
Speaker 5 (04:19):
But I have to add I don't sleep well. I
need to spend more time outside. And just because you're
I live in a very natural area. There are mountain
lions in our yard. But this morning I woke up
because a woodpecker was banging outside of the house.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
So in that case, nature is not necessarily helping you
sleep better when the woodpecker is pecking on the.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Side of your house.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Rich and doctor WU like, is there something about feeling
connected to nature? Feeling connected to other species, how does
that help us sleep better well?
Speaker 4 (04:53):
In addition to being diurnal animals, we're also pack animals, right,
So a big part of sleeping well at night is
also just feeling connected and feeling safe during the day.
So if we have our social interactions with other people,
and if we feel connected to the people and animals
and nature around us, then we feel much more safe
(05:14):
and calm.
Speaker 5 (05:15):
There's a great conversation going on all around us. In
recent years, the more research that's been done on how
animals and trees communicate, sometimes between each other in the
same species, sometimes across species, including with us. When we
pay attention to that, we feel less alone and we
(05:35):
feel calmed rich.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
You suggested something called green exercise. What does that look like.
Speaker 5 (05:42):
Well, some of the studies have shown that when people
do the same exercise and in fact burn exactly the
same number of calories in an indoor gym, for instance,
on a treadmill, compared when they expend or burn the
exact same number of calories they do it outside gardening
or hiking or something like that, there's a significant difference.
(06:06):
It's improvement in terms of well being and a number
of other indicators. So some people call it green exercise
and actually market it that way that there are green
exercise groups, particularly in Europe. It's something that I think
is caught on to a degree in the US.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Really cool.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
I've heard of forest bathing, which is like a Japanese concept.
Is that similar to what you're talking about.
Speaker 5 (06:30):
Well, that's a form of therapy in a sense.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Can I ask what exactly is forest bathing?
Speaker 4 (06:37):
I think the Japanese name is shinin yoku. That's it,
And I think it just literally means bathing in the forest,
and it doesn't have to be very complicated. You just
go into a forest and allow the trees to surround you.
You experience the feeling of the soil under your feet
as you're walking, the breeze on your face, and you
(06:57):
hear the sounds of the forest. It gives us such
rich material to really experience with our five senses, and
that really slows down our heart rate. It decreases our
blood pressures, our cortisol level goes down. The whole sympathetic
nervous system, which is the fight or flight system, calms
down a little bit. It's like you're telling your body
(07:19):
that you're safe, that it's okay to let your guard down.
Speaker 5 (07:22):
There are a couple of reasons the way that's good.
One is all the reasons that makes sleep better when
they're in nature, but also because people bring their souls
to nature in ways they don't usually. Our relationship with
trees works on two levels. One is that some of
the chemicals released by trees actually are calming to us.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Oh wow.
Speaker 5 (07:48):
But the other reason is that people act different when
they're around trees, and so force bathing. You go out
there with a group and you have a therapist, you
and we were asked to go out and pick a tree,
any tree. And I know this sounds like tree hugging,
which is highly underrated. But pick a tree and spend
(08:09):
some time with it, and then come back to the group,
sit in a circle, and why did you learn? What
did you feel in the tree?
Speaker 2 (08:17):
I want to do that immediately, Adam. I mean, it
could really help us feel connected to nature and improve
our sleep too. But for those of us who live
in places like Los Angeles, it's not that easy to
go forest bathing every day. I mean, Am I right?
Speaker 4 (08:31):
Yeah, it would be ideal if you could get out
to nature every once in a while. You know, like say,
on weekends if you can go hiking. But I think
there are ways to maybe focus on the quality rather
than the quantity as well, like even if you have
a house plant, spending some time with your plants, with
the little bits of nature that you do have, and
being really mindful, being in the moment and allowing your
(08:53):
senses to really experience whatever little bit of nature there is.
And then maybe on a more logistical level, you know,
have black house curtains at night to keep out the
traffic lights and whatnot, and throw your windows wide open
during the day for that sunshine and fresh air. If
you can bring as much of the rhythms of nature
(09:13):
to your home as possible.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
You know, I always wonder like, is it possible to
use technology to replace nature in our homes? You know,
like we'll do a little like bird sounds or ocean sounds.
Can we trick our body in a way into feeling
like that we're really in nature even though it's a
computer generated sound.
Speaker 5 (09:34):
There is some evidence that technological substitutions can work a
little bit like watching nature videos, but there's a limit
to that. Better approach really is the town that I
live in, Julia and California is a dark sky community.
There's an organized effort around the country to commit to
(09:55):
certain kinds of bulbs and turning off lights at night
out side. Oh wow, my son came and visited and
looked up at the sky and said it was the
first time he could smell the stars. I mean, it
was that vivid to him. But also within cities, conservation
is no longer enough. Now we need to create nature.
(10:15):
As strange as that sounds, and there are a lot
of efforts around the world to change cities to have
many more trees, not only for carbon sequestration, but for
the kinds of things we're talking about, the health benefits
of that connection of nature. We can find nature in cities.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
So how do we create nature inside the rooms we
sleep in.
Speaker 5 (10:41):
There's something called biophilic design and biophilic architecture. It's based
on the biophilia hypothesis of EO. Wilson at Harvard, which
holds that we are hardwired genetically for an affiliation with nature,
and when we don't get enough of it, we don't
do so well. Biophilic architecture actually brings plants into the workplace.
(11:03):
For example, can be your home or school, as well
your plants climbing inside walls or outside walls, outside the windows.
And what the biophilic architecture is revealing in the research
is that people who work in biophilically designed workplaces are
far more productive. Sick time goes down, turnover gets better,
(11:24):
everything gets better.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
That's fascinating, doctor Wu.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
How do you bring nature into your bedrooms? You have
suggestions and advice.
Speaker 4 (11:33):
Sure, so, I'm very lucky to live in a pretty
green neighborhood. We all have big trees in our yards
and whatnot, and it's pretty quiet at night, so I
open the windows and I let the night sounds and
the fresh air come in. And in fact, I personally
feel a huge difference when the windows are open versus not.
(11:54):
So there are seasons of the year when I sleep
worse or better depending on whether the weather allows me
to open the windows, and I make my room very
very dark, I blackout curtains. Yeah, those are sort of
my main ways of doing it. If I had more
where withal and I didn't have a one year old
and three year old, I definitely have a lot more
plans as well, But for now that's what we've got.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
This is a fascinating discussion and we are not done
more to come. Welcome back to Chasing Sleep. We are
learning about nature's connection to sleep with author and journalist
Richard Louve and sleep specialist doctor Jade Wu. You know,
we're talking about getting close to nature, but nature around
(12:39):
us is changing drastically with climate change. How is that
affecting the way that we sleep?
Speaker 4 (12:47):
This is something that my colleagues and I in the
sleep community are very concerned about. There's the obvious one,
which is that when temperatures get hotter, it's harder to sleep.
Our bodies do need to cool down during the night
in order to sleep well, so your body temperature stays higher.
That's the obvious one. But then there are also less
obvious ones, like the stress from mass migration events and
(13:13):
people losing their homes to extreme weather events, and people
losing their jobs and their lives being upended from you know,
the economic and social disruptions from climate change, and of
course the nature that is destroyed and the human communities
that are destroyed by climate change just adds every layer
of stress possible to body, mind, spirit, emotional well being.
(13:37):
So yeah, we are actually quite concerned about climate change.
And what it will do to every aspect of health,
but sleep in particular.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
Yikes, who stands to you know, have their sleep most
disrupted by climate change?
Speaker 4 (13:51):
We already have plenty of studies showing that the amount
of green space in a neighborhood is directly correlated to
how many hours people sleep, Like they did studies with
satellite imagery to count up what percentage of the neighborhood
is green, and that directly relates to how many hours
people are sleeping and how often people having sleep problems.
(14:11):
You know, it's things like walkability of your neighborhood. So yeah,
it's the people who have less control over their environment.
So folks who are lower income, who are in less
affluent areas older people. Yeah, it's the people who are
least privileged who will be most affected.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Are these the things rich that bring on the solestalgia?
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Did I do it?
Speaker 4 (14:37):
Rich?
Speaker 5 (14:37):
Solistalgia is a term that was created by an eco
philosopher in Australia and Glenn albrit And basically, when you
feel solistalgic, you are feeling a kind of intense homesickness
for the home around you. The nature is being destroyed.
(15:00):
It's not for the past. It's for the present that
is changing so quickly and the loss of nature. I
think a lot of us suffer from that. One of
the reasons also psychologically, and this is connected to climate
change and biodiversity collapse, which go together, is the fact
(15:21):
of the growing amount of eco anxiety. It's called different
things ecological depression. But it's no accident that as the
pandemic began to ease, the trailheads were packed with people.
Speaker 6 (15:33):
Yes, the parks were overwhelmed, some of them by the
number of people that were Yes, finally rediscovering nature. Folks
are really worried about that, and the healthcare profession, as
Jade said, in communities that have a lot less than
nature that taking nature away from people is a life
(15:54):
and death issue.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
And doctor Wu, do you have any thoughts on how
this sort of eco depression that is probably collectively happening,
how that's affecting our sleep, how we can try to
combat it.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
Yeah, it's definitely related to sleep. I think often people
may not consciously realize that when they're having insomnia or
having difficulty sleeping that it's related to this. They just say, oh,
I just can't shut off my mind, or I just
can't relax. Just something's bothering me, and I can't really
put my finger on it. And I think there is
(16:33):
some longing for connection or simplicity or just I always
start with mindfulness of just take what you do have
in terms of nature and connect with that.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Yes, clearing the mind is.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
What it's all about, all right, Adam and I want
to share a little experiment we've been conducting. We have
a new alarm clock that projects light during the day
and at night. It is dark.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
Blue light, and the color of the light changes and
it kind of gives us a wouldn't you say, Katie,
It's like a sped up sunset.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
What I think about it is that at least in
the midst of this Los Angeles concrete jungle that we
live in, we've been experimenting with this alarm clock and
I like it. I really do.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
He love it.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
Yeah. So, there's research showing that having light in the mornings,
even when you're still sleeping your eyes are closed, about
ten percent of the light goes through your eyelids. So
if you have a light that's kind of gradually getting
brighter and brighter, some of that light is going through
to your brain. And giving it sort of a gentle
forewarning like okay, adam, it might be time to get
(17:43):
up soon, and you know, you get a bit of
a warning and your brain likes that, right. And also
as a night owl, the best way to shift your
circadian phase, as in, you know, make yourself more of
a morning person, is to have bright light first thing
in the morning. And so if you're starting that even
before you open your eyes, that can actually make your
(18:03):
sleep inertia a little bit better. And sleep inertia is
that draggy feeling that like the half hour an hour
that it takes for you to fully wake up, like
you're sledging through mud. That gets better if you have
that light wake you up.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
That's great to know.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Rich thoughts about such clock, these clocks that are being
offered these days that have birds and ocean sounds and
a light that goes like a sunset at night down
to blue and can put on a sort of sunrise.
What are your opinions on such clock?
Speaker 5 (18:37):
If it works, it's great, And that sounds like it
works for you. I have a woodpecker I can loan
you too for waking up, you know, during the pandemic,
And I wrote a piece for the like times about this.
People started looking out their windows when they were in seclusion,
and they were noticing that there were birds out there.
(18:58):
Now they knew they were out there already, but they
didn't really know. And they started connecting with those birds,
their kids did, and they did not feel so alone.
They felt a sense of solace and connection. And that
has to do with this the loneliness epidemic. The medical
(19:19):
community is really quite worried about loneliness as a source
of disease. It turns out many of the same diseases
that are associated with obesity and with smoking happened when
people are extremely lonely, when they're very isolated. And many
of the reasons that are given for this happen to
(19:40):
be exactly the same ones that keep kids indoors too much, electronics,
cities that are designed for cars, not for nature for people,
and the list goes on. I would add another factor
to that list of causes for the extreme epidemic and
human isolation all over the world, particularly in in countries
(20:00):
like ours, which is species loneliness. I think that deep
within this is a deep desire to not feel alone
in the universe.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Wow beautifully said in terms.
Speaker 5 (20:11):
Of climate change and the eco anxiety which keeps a
lot of people away. We need something that I call
imaginative hope. I think we need to begin to imagine
what would it be like to have a nature rich
home that would help us leave better. I just wanted
to add that there's a lot of good news. In
twenty ten, I was asked to give thee to the
(20:31):
American Academy of Pediatrics, about five thousand pediatricians their annual meeting.
And at first I thought, why me, nature deficit disorder. Really,
it's not even a known medical diagnosis. And I was
nervous before I went up to San Francisco to give this,
and my wife, who is a nurse practitioner, took my
(20:51):
face in her hands. They said, listen to me, Rich,
pediatricians are different from other doctors. They're really nice people.
Oh except for doctors like Jade. And so I led
with that line and I was off to a good
start with the pediatricians. I suggested, how about if you guys,
(21:14):
men and women begin to prescribe nature, literally write prescriptions.
There was a little of that going on already, and
they went back, many of them and started doing that.
There's a guy named doctor Robert Tzar from Washington, d C.
Who went back. He literally started writing prescriptions to his
families for spending time on the side of nature. Then
(21:36):
he's got the other pediatricians in DC to do it,
and then they took the next step. They created a
database of all the parks and open spaces in d C.
So the doc could not only write the prescription literally,
but could turn to the computer and say, there's a
park a block and a half from your house. Here's
what you can do there. I was puzzled by that.
Why that happened with the pediatricians, and it was later
(21:59):
explained to me that pediatricians are so deeply frustrated. They
see mortalities every day, morbidities every day among children that
they can't deal with. Not only that, but every day
they write prescriptions to pharmaceuticals. So they already have a
sense that somehow we're missing the boat in so many ways,
(22:20):
and they're frustrated, so they took to this.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
That's amazing.
Speaker 5 (22:24):
So there's lots of things happening.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
Yeah, collectively, I think we could probably use some of
that imaginative hope to help us to sleep more peacefully.
At night.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Well, that is very hopeful.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
I appreciate that as a parent and as the host
of Chasing Sleep.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Thank you, doctor Wu and Rich so much.
Speaker 5 (22:43):
Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
What a beautiful way. Let me just say to end
the season, this.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
One might have caused the most changed to our lives.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
I feel it if we connect with nature and we
connect with each other, we are going to sleep better.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
It's that simple.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
I'm so grateful because I think so much of the
information in today's episode and all the episodes are really
life changing in ways that are doable.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
I would agree with that.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
This has been such a gift, and I want to
thank everybody that is listening for connecting with us on
season two of Chasing Sleep.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
I think every episode we learn so many practical, life
changing things to better our individual lives, our family's life, and.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Our marriage and our sleep.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Like, is everyone vibing this?
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Uh, We're vibing.
Speaker 3 (23:35):
And if you liked this episode and you missed a
few of the others, feel free to binge listen.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
We will not judge. Plus, we want to hear from you.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
Yes, go to your podcast player of choice and rate
and review the show and tell us what you think.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Katie tell them your social.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
My social is kt Q. Low's on the Gram.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Yeah, and I'm on the Gram too. I'm much shabby Shaps.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Don't forget to follow or subscribe for future episodes.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Until next time.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
I hope you're living your best while sleeping your best.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Chasing Sleep is a production of Ruby Studios from iHeartMedia
in partnership with Mattress Firm. Our executive producer is Molly Sosha.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
This show was written and produced by Sound That Brands
Dave Beeson, Jason Jackson, and Michelle Rice.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Chasing Sleep is hosted by Katie Lows and Adam Shapiro.
That's Us. Thank you to our partners at Mattress Firm.
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