August 19, 2025 • 34 mins
In this episode, Michelle sits down with toy designer and author Cas Holman to explore the power of play in our lives. Known for her innovative approach to creativity and design, Cas unpacks how play can reshape the way we think, foster deeper connections, and spark new ideas. Together, they discuss why being playful isn’t just for kids—it’s a mindset that helps us navigate challenges, embrace curiosity, and live with more joy. CHECK IN to this episode if you've been suppressing your inner child!
For more on Cas Holman's upcoming book, Playful - click here.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Checking In with Michelle Williams, a production of
iHeartRadio and The Black Effect. You play too much, well,
maybe you don't play enough. We're gonna find out about
the mindset of being playful on this episode of Checking
(00:23):
In with our friend cast Holman. I have been so
excited about.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
This conversation.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Because I've been talking to a friend of mine that
it's all things creative. And yes, I have tons of
friends peers in the industry and of course in Broadway,
but to keep but to have these conversations intentionally, I'm thinking,
we don't have conversations enough about being playful. So I'm
(00:59):
really excited to have Cass Holman, the author of a
new book, Caught Playful, How play shifts are thinking, inspires
connection and sparks creativity.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Y'all, welcome to Checking In. Cass Holman. Hi there, Thank
you so much, Michelle. I'm super happy to talk to
you today.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Absolutely, we have heard the phrase you play too much
ken the response to that be you probably don't play enough.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean I think that as we as
we grow up, we're taught to not play right. Part
of school, A huge part of school is learning how
to suppress your play instincts. Right. It's like when we're children,
we want to play the most, and that is when
we are taught Nope, hold still, you're gonna sit it,
you're gonna go indoors, you're gonna hold still. And so
(01:54):
we learn how to become adults by learning how to
not play right. So you're telling me that.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
So when we're toddlers and we're at home and we're
just playing with possibly, y'all. She's also the inventor and
the design of rigamajig, So you're trying to if you're
telling me that those if you had a rigamajig at
home or Legos, which you have also helped work on,
so that stops when you went to school, even though
(02:24):
we had playtime at school, but that was still structured.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Yeah, I mean, I think in many ways and many
schools I'm making some like over generalizations here, but a
lot of schools, particularly like the pre k kindergarten, first grade,
they do integrate playful learning right, and if they and
children still play like you can't keep a toddler from
playing right, And we know, of course that that is
(02:48):
how they learn, and so you know, it's part of
it's integrated into our school system and our kind of pedagogy.
When when we're younger and then the older we get,
the less and less we're allowed to play, right, and
we kind of you mentioned you brought up free play, right,
or we like we play for the sake of a
(03:09):
specific outcome, or we kind of things get more structured
the older we get, and I think as that happens,
we get further and further from our kind of inner
instinctive drive to play. And so by the time we're adults,
of course, we're pretty disconnected from it, in part because
we've learned that that's just not how we're supposed to act.
(03:30):
So there's all kinds of then kind of this idea
that that you're going to be judged or people won't
take you seriously, or people won't think that you're smart
if you're playful. Yeah, you know, so play is is
kind of like the opposite of serious, and like as
you as you grow up, like serious is better, right,
Serious is how we how we are productive, and play
(03:54):
is seen as kind of frivolous or not necessary in
a way.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
That is, Yeah, to apologize to my ex because we
always used to like to play and horse play and
tickle and all this stuff, and I'm like, we're too
old for that.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Oh okay, I mean you don't have to like it.
If you didn't like it, you're allowed to not want
to be I don't like to Tickling is a whole
I hope someone has. I'm sure that there's some kind
of research or something, because tickling is like weird. It's
like control, there's like physical things, you're having instincts, like
(04:30):
so much is going on in the dynamic of being tickled.
I hope somebody looks into that.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
I hope somebody looks into that. And I'm like, oh
my gosh, all he wanted to do was play and
left and I suppressed that. No, but I promise you,
I've just been looking forward to this because I think
that I have a good sense of humor.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
But then that might not be enough.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Do we just need to get our hands ends moving?
Is it coloring? Building? Is it a hobby?
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah? Help us? Yeah? Well, I think, uh, you know,
I think that having a sense of humor is being playful. Uh.
I think language is one place that we can be
really playful, not just in like making jokes, but even
in kind of reframing the way that we think. Right. So,
having a playful mindset is one thing that can really,
(05:28):
I think, especially in times of adversity or uncertainty, reframing
something right. I think a lot of a lot of
particularly like right now, like things are not what we
imagined they would be, or they're not what we think
they're supposed to be, right, and so it's it's hard
for us in uncertain times to kind of figure out
(05:51):
how to approach something that's not what we expect, right.
And so so one way that you can have a
playful mindset and approach things like that is just like,
all right, so what if we kind of play with
our expectations and like shift what we expected and try
that on. Maybe if instead of assuming you know that
(06:12):
I was gonna be able to retire at a certain age,
you know, what would it look like if instead this? Right?
And if we approach things as like you know, you
can think of it as kind of prototyping a different
way or just like being playful with like what is
the future going to look like? Right? And the more
we in general, the more we play, the more comfortable
(06:35):
we are with uncertainty, right, Because inherent with play is
that you don't maybe know what the outcome is going
to be, or you kind of dabble in things where
you're like, what if this? What if this? Right? So,
just in being playful, we become more comfortable with the unknown,
which then of course makes us more comfortable stepping into
(06:56):
in general when life happens.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
And was just about to ask why do we stop
playing and imagining as adult and you're, well, maybe you're
answering it for me because as you're adulting, you're taught
by a certain age you should have this. You should
have this in your saving you should have this in
(07:19):
your four all one, okay, you should have children or
a partner by this time in your life. And is
that keeping us from well you just said, play with
our expectations?
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Maybe yeah, tear the list up? Yeah right? Well yeah?
Or ask yourself like is that gonna work for me?
Like is that actually what I wanted? Or is that
just what I was supposed to want?
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Right?
Speaker 2 (07:50):
And I think that's a huge part of a lot
of what I think middle adulthood, right, Like do you
I don't know how if you like astrology, but do
you know about the Saturn return when we turn twenty
eight years old and an astrologer would be much better
at talking about this. But when we turn twenty eight,
of course a lot is going on in our stars.
(08:11):
But also it's kind of like when often people realize like, Okay,
I've achieved all the things I was supposed to achieve,
and then they kind of are kind of sitting with it,
like I have the job and maybe I have the family,
or I bought the bought into the system, and I'm
like succeeding in all the ways that I was told
I'm supposed to. And often people around the age of
twenty eight will kind of say like, wait a minute,
(08:33):
I'm not happy though, or this doesn't really feel fun,
like these are the things I thought I would want
and yet right. So I think that there comes a
moment in most people's lives when maybe they realize like, oh,
I was like doing all the things I was supposed
to do, and they may not be right for me,
they're right for some people. For some people that's amazing
(08:54):
and they're super happy and that's great, and for others
they're like, ah, hold on, this isn't either I'm trying
to get these things and it's not working, or they
have these things and it's not making them happy. Right.
So there's also this like kind of like reframing. One
of the things about a playful mindset is reframing success,
right that in order to be more playful, one of
(09:16):
the ways is is to reframe success like is success
that you have the family, house, retirement plan, et cetera.
Or is success that like you have friends and you
have fun and you're happy and you're taking care of
your body. Right, So what does success look like is
a huge way to kind of like be more playful
(09:38):
in your in your mindset. And also I think like
kind of be more open to what something might look
like and and be present in what you have rather
than trying to strive for something that maybe isn't feasible
or right.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Yeah, I feel like I'm in an amazing workshop that
I'm glad I came to that I'm attending, I'm taking notes.
I say that also because corporations like Nike.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Google bring you in is it would it be for? Like?
Speaker 1 (10:15):
So sometimes we hear of leadership conferences and things like that,
and I feel like this is something that we all
need to hear, especially if you're not working in corporate
you might be a chef, you might be an actor,
you might be a doctor, you might be a teacher.
But I'm so loving you say reframe success because that
(10:38):
could be a huge way to be playful in our mindset.
Did something happen with you personally along the way where
you got this revelation?
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Yeah, I mean I think ever since there was a child,
I knew that I was not gonna fit in. Like
I was a queer kid. My gender was weird, my
family was pretty odd, you know. I was raised with
(11:11):
divorced parents and different configurations of step siblings and things
in the seventies, so there weren't a lot of us
bumping around at that point. And I was an artist,
which was weird. So I think early on I knew
that the model that I was being shown on TV
and kind of in life in terms of what we're
(11:32):
meant to grow into, was not for me. So that
was we felt kind of strange and a little bit
stressful because I was like, all right, well, if it's
not that I know what I don't want, but I
don't see anything that looks like something that I want, right.
But I think what that meant was that everything kind
of was up in question, like I didn't assume anything
(11:56):
about my life or about the way that things need
to work. So in a way, I feel pretty lucky
and that I then got to kind of imagine and
invent everything as I went, which is also kind of
how I became a toy designer. I didn't know that
a toy designer was a thing I could be, but
that's kind of what I wound up doing. And then
(12:18):
even with toy designers, I don't really I've designed a
number of toys, but I've also done playgrounds and playspaces
and I worked with so even in that, I'm kind
of doing it my own weird way, and like you mentioned,
I work with companies to help them figure out how
their teams can be more playful, and so it's fun.
(12:38):
It's meant that I kind of have gotten to make
it up as I go.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Yes, have you done at see things in airports for
children and either some knockoff of what you designed or
it's something you done.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Yeah, there's great. I mean it's interesting. Like airports, I
always think about, like what type of play is would
kids need in this particular scenario? Right, So if kids
are about to get on an airplane, I would give
them gross motor skills, like let them run and climb,
Like it should be big and rowdy, right, because they're
(13:15):
going to have to sit still, so let's let them
let off some steam. Right. So every every like play,
anything I'm designing, like has a slightly different scenario of
like what kind of play do they need? Right? Like
I think adults also could use some kind of gross
motor skill, Like adults need to do yoga before they
get on an airplane.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
So when we see kids running around in the airport,
don't look at them like.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
They're career let them, yeah, clap them, tell them to
race faster, heard jump higher?
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Like, oh yeah, apps so hard, wear yourself out.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Have ye lass? Absolutely? Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Speaking of things that you have designed and with toys,
I want to as it might be personal homeline. Do
you Is your home just filled with building blocks and
collar and all that good stuff?
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Yeah? Kind of my right now. I try to keep
my studio in a separate space. Okay, yeah, no, but
in your studio, yeah, my studio, yes, I have. There
is a lot of stuff. It's too much. I'm working
on it. And then I have a little this where
(14:28):
I'm in my house right now, and it's and it's
like I try to keep just a few whatever project
I'm working on in that moment. But but it's also
it's kind of my studio has like a wood shop
because I need I make things. I need to tinker
as part of my process. I'll do anything to avoid
sitting still. So yeah, my process is very hands on
(14:53):
and uh, and it's funny my partner is an educator
and so also kind of a about building blocks. We
both have very specific blocks that we like. And they're children. Yeah, there,
their kids have have a block set that we've we've
had a lot of conversations about because the you know,
(15:15):
and and well, neither of us can just play with
the blocks. Both of us have to be total nerds
as we play with blocks and talk about what it
means to have less of the units and more of
the abstract shapes and are we trying to make a
thing or are we just you know, is it is
it more zen when I just have shapes so that
I can't make a specific thing. I'm just stacking forms,
you know. So uh yeah, even at home, I'm I
(15:38):
think I'm always I'm always a toy designer.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
I love this invite us over.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
We want to Yeah, yeah, to play.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
I want to just say this statement and tell me
what comes to mind when you think when I say it.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Okay, fear a failure? Yeah, play more and also human
of course, everybody's afraid of failure. Failure is scary, and
if you play more, you'll get more comfortable with it
and realize that, like failing is also learning. I call
it failure, call it like false starts, call it yeah, learning.
(16:20):
Half of the things that I do don't work, and
then I pay attention to why they didn't work so
I can do it different the next time.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Say that again, you said half of what you do.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Did it work? Yeah? And also that's an understatement. It's
probably like nine out of ten things that I do
don't work, but I don't know what's going to work
until I try, right, So you have to do it wrong.
But then the trick is to pay attention and focus
on what you're learning, like what I learned, like ah,
(16:55):
that screw isn't going to be compatible with that glue,
or like oh, kids didn't like that one because it
didn't work with that other thing, or this was hard,
you know, right, So I'm paying attention to why so
that then the next round will be better. Right. I
think this is also where we're we're tinkering, and tinkering
(17:15):
might be with it if you if you like cooking,
right when you're cooking and you're like and you make something, Oh,
this time it was too salty, So next time I'll
the salt or more cream or whatever it is, right,
So so we have to test, we have to try
it in order to figure out what'll work. So in
it's hard. Sometimes it's discouraging. Every once in a while,
(17:36):
I really want it to work because I just kind
of feel done. But and it happens in little ways
and in really big ways. Uh, you know with my
my for me, I have this business, and business is
not my.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Passion, right, Creativity is most creators the business.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Yeah, acumen is out the door, right. And of course,
like I've been creative in my business in ways that
maybe I didn't need to be creative. So I've learned,
and I've done it really differently each time. Right, So yeah, yeah,
yeah learn If we're not we're not failing, we're learning.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
What are your thoughts about play and our mental health?
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Oh? Man? Well it's interesting. So I had with this book.
I have a co writer, Lydia Dinworth, who is a
science writer, and so she did a deep dive of
research looking for any anything about adults in play. And
there are a number of people who are working in
play in the broad sense. Stuart Brown is a favorite
of mine. He's really wonderful scientist, and she's got a
(18:46):
great ted talk and IF and IF and a number
of other researchers who will do research like uh, play
in the broader sense. But there's very little about adults
in play specifically, which was interesting, and I'm hoping that
there will be more. Right, I think that part of
what I hope to do with the book is help
(19:07):
us all kind of respect play and really see the
value of it and therefore prioritize it, which might lead
to more research. But that said, we do know that
play is essential for our health. I think it's as
important as like a good diet and exercise and sleep.
That being play deprived also will make you a miserable
(19:30):
human in the same way that being derived would, And
of course the research shows that as well, that it
makes us much more agile, so more flexible when faced
with adversity, and I think that that can be a
little bit counterintuitive. People think like no, I'm you know,
I'm struggling, or the world is chaotic, like this is.
(19:56):
We maybe don't have the instinct to play when things
are hard, but that's actually exactly when we should play.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
So right now, what's going on in society, he I'm
hearing you say, don't tune it all out. Be aware, Yeah,
but still play.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Especially in our communities, Like right now, it's for the
communities who are struggling through a lot of what's happening
in the US, in particular, because we are in the US,
I'll address our particular issues. Yeah, absolutely, Like playing together
is the way that we remember, like we reconnect with
(20:37):
each other so we feel less isolated, right because that's
one of the things that gets hard and scary, and
that's kind of part of the goal of what the
administration is doing right now is trying to make us
not feel connected to each other and make us feel
terrified and alone. So the more we come together and
connect and dance and sing and you know, have picnics
(20:59):
and have cookouts and meet and hav impromptu perk parties,
the better off will be. Like we can then be
like repowered or you know, if we fill our batteries
in our hearts and then we can go back out
and keep existing, keep being who we are, and know
we're not alone. Thank you so much for that.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
I'm thinking about all the black parties and cookouts and picnics.
I'm like, when is the last time I went to
a black party a picnic.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
A friend of mine did have a cookout Memorial Day weekend.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Oh good, But I'm like New York City though in
the summer, there are black parties everywhere, some of everywhere.
And your book, part of the subtitle of your book,
you said playful and being playful inspires connections, but we
got to go out to connect.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
What are your thoughts on a playful mindset and connecting
with people and being creative? Have you seen the change
since COVID happened when we were all isolated?
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Oh? Yeah, interesting. Yeah, that's a great question. I think
that I think that well, first of all, coming back in,
I think we all were very timid, like just out
of practice, right. I think that that playful as a mindset,
it's also kind of a must. There's muscle memory, there's
habits that are playful, and of course like socializing is
(22:40):
a habit, and I think so everybody coming back in
I noticed a lot in when I would be just
in public. I think we all were kind of like, like,
how how do we interact with strangers? Or how do
I interact with friends? You know? And so so uh.
And I don't think it took us all that long
to come back into it, thankfully, at least in New York.
(23:02):
Everything came back online pretty quickly. In ways, I think
that it made us really appreciate what we got and
what we need from being social creatures.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Right.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
I think maybe before COVID, we never had a reason
to realize how important it is to us, and then
when we didn't have it, we really were like, Okay,
this is the thing that has an immense value and
we will prioritize. Yes. So I think since COVID, maybe
(23:36):
I think we also what's tricky about it is that
and and this is just my impression, but it feels
like because we've stuck with remote work, we've also had
to be very intentional with planning social stuff. And I
(23:59):
think that's how to really the terrible impact on our
on our work habits. Like I think being around people
who aren't our friends, Like we used to do that
all the time at work, right, and maybe they were
our friends or maybe we kind of knew them, but yeah,
we were we were we had habits of being around
people who were our workmates or whatever. But whether or
(24:19):
not we liked them or chose to be with them
wasn't the point. We were we just knew how to
be around each other. And I think that's a bit
lost now. I think we we have to kind of
go out of our way or we have play dates
or we like make plans to do it. And what
it means is like we maybe have fewer of the
(24:42):
informal relationships with people where maybe they're kind of friends,
but we know how to interact, right, And maybe there's
even some conflict resolution that we have to practice or
had to practice when we were in offices more, and
being in offices more meant we were like eating lunch
in centers with other people. So I think, in a
(25:05):
weird way, we've lost some informal social skills. Okay, that
in my mind, like that has it had It has
had an impact on play because now you know again
like it it feels like it's it's something we have
to plan or design rather than just kind of like
(25:27):
being playful, you know, whether it's yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
I am thinking of the excitement of wanting to talk
to you. How this interview has just organically progressed. The
weird question that is coming to mind is playful and
the introvert.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Well, if there's someone listening right now, like.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Wait a minute, black party, wait a minute, playfulness, I
gotta I gotta connect.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
With people to be playful. I don't think that's what
she's saying. No, no, not at all. It's a great
it's a great way. And however, yeah, I am. I tackle.
I for many years lived alone, and so would would
find myself like kind of tinkering around the apartment or
rearranging my apartment and kind of just playing by myself,
(26:22):
which you know, whether it's tinkering with something trying to fix,
or like rearranging a shelf, because it's kind of fun
and satisfying. And I think we don't always let ourselves
do that because it doesn't feel productive, right, But if
in the middle of the day you just really need
to move some things around and feel like you have
you know, you've got a prop style your your shelf,
(26:45):
then let yourself do that because there's something that's telling
you you need to and for some reason that makes
you feel better, you know, yeah, and you need I'd
call it like kind of attention play. So in the book,
I tried to make kind of a ta taxonomy of
adult play types, like the ways that we play that
we may not think of play.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
Yeah, because I was going to ask how do we play?
I know what's coming out in your book in October,
which we're so excited about it. I'm like, maybe we
should have you back one more. Yeah, well also the
release or after the release.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
I'm so interested to I'm excited for you to read
it because I know you're incredible at playing. Yeah, you know,
singing and dancing and acting and and some of the
play prompts because people are always asking me, yeah, but
how you know? And so I'm like, all right, I'll
give you some I'm not going to tell you how
to play. Nobody can tell you how to play, but
(27:41):
I will help you. I will help you connect with
your play right, And I'll give you some prompts. What
if you try this? What if you try this and
along the way, notice what feels good or right or
what really clicks with you and then you'll like get
to you like read you're gonna re acclimat or reacquaint
(28:01):
yourself with your play. But I but actors. I was
in particular, like I feel like so playful, so good
at play, and so good at kind of rolling with unexpected.
I've always been really inspired by improv, you know, because
of the yes andness or the what if part, and
(28:23):
the agility, like very agile minded with kind of rolling
with whatever comes up. So I think, yeah, I'm excited
to hear what you think of the book as someone
who plays professionally.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
So freaking loutely, and I play someone Viola van Horn.
She created this potion that helps you live forever, and
it now I think she's the total opposite of who
I am. That's why I love playing her eight times
(28:56):
a week. Man, I am some but at the same time,
I am some one who would take the potion because
I'm nosy, I would want to live.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Yeah, the thing is you live forever and you're.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Unable to die, which is I mean, that's a commitment.
That is a commitment, and depending on your beliefs about
what happens in the after, you know, you're kind of
shutting down we don't know what that might be an
interesting option out they say.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
It's supposed to be better, and then here you are living.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Earthquakes in New York. Who would have thought, Yeah, yeah,
that's what y'all want to continue to live through me.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yes again, I'm nosy, Okay, I am nosy, But yeah,
so you are so right about being able to do
something day after day, night after night, connecting with people
in a different way from the stage to the audience
that makes them last. Then it helps them for that
for at least two and a half hours. You're gonna
(30:03):
laugh your socks off.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
Hmmm, wonderful, you know, you know, go ahead, just the
I'm just catching up to like now, of course, because
I'm still thinking, like, oh, would I want to live forever?
Like oh, well, that the thing about living forever is
that you could have you could just be a different
person every forty years. You could be like, Okay, now
I'm going to try being this type of you know,
(30:28):
maybe you can't change your brain all the way, but
you can be like now, I'm going to try to
be like an accountant, and then this next time I'm
going to go for professional athlete, right or like now,
I'm gonna be like, and I just want to go
live on it. I'm going to be a monk. So
you could really like just try it. As long as
you were a curious, adventurous person, you could like go,
you could have a lot of experiences. You would literally
(30:52):
forever be evolving. Yeah, yeah, that could be. I mean,
and of course, like by the time you kind of
ran out of types or ran out of jobs, there
would be whole new ones because the world also changes
every ten minutes. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
Yeah, I'm so excited, y'all. Cast home and thank you
so much for your work. I consider it literal work
of light, y'all. When I got the opportunity, when this
came across my email, and I began to research because
I was like, I need to play more. I need
(31:28):
to find a hobby other than watching Judge.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Judy all the every day. I need to find something
to do.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
But I'm so glad we talked about it, but that
it's also a mindset, and so I am going to
be intentional about that, playing with our expectations and shifting
what we expect. That is absolutely huge, because I think
that can paralyze or make you shrink if because of
(31:57):
disappointment of an unmet expectation. You're not gonna be playful
because of disappointment.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Yeah, yeah, releasing release judgment is a huge part of it.
Releasing judgment from yourselts again, right, yeah, Like don't like,
no one's gonna judge you if you go and roll
down that grassy slope, right or maybe they will, but
who cares. Don't judge yourself, right, And so there's like
(32:25):
the releasing the assumption that like, oh, you'll look silly,
or like, oh I can't do that playful thing, like
I can't dance in the line at the supermarket even
though I love that song. Like just if you release judgment,
actually you can and it feels great.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
I love this so much, Cass, you are forever a
friend of checking in podcast any time, y'all. I'm excited
about her book. It does not come out until October.
Maybe we'll replay this in October. I don't want to
date this episode, but this will live on for a
(33:01):
long long time, and I know you'll come back and
see us.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Yeah, and you can pre order it now so that
it's like queue up and it'll just come when it's ready.
You get some bonus content, some extra stuff from me.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
So okay, yeah, okay, we're excited about that.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Thank you for checking out. Thank you, Michelle. It's wonderful.
We'll see you soon. Okay, y'all.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
I'm so curious about what y'all think about this episode.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
I was so.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Excited to do this interview because I think I'm just
in a space of especially with creativity and not being
ashamed to be playful and not being ashamed to try.
I think sometimes we stop being playful because of fear
of failure. I hope this episode inspires you to get
(33:49):
out there and play. Checking In with Michelle Williams is
(34:42):
a production of iHeartRadio and The Black Effect. For more
podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Checking In with Michelle Williams, a production of
iHeartRadio and The Black Effect. You play too much, well,
maybe you don't play enough. We're gonna find out about
the mindset of being playful on this episode of Checking
(00:23):
In with our friend cast Holman. I have been so
excited about.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
This conversation.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Because I've been talking to a friend of mine that
it's all things creative. And yes, I have tons of
friends peers in the industry and of course in Broadway,
but to keep but to have these conversations intentionally, I'm thinking,
we don't have conversations enough about being playful. So I'm
(00:59):
really excited to have Cass Holman, the author of a
new book, Caught Playful, How play shifts are thinking, inspires
connection and sparks creativity.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Y'all, welcome to Checking In. Cass Holman. Hi there, Thank
you so much, Michelle. I'm super happy to talk to
you today.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Absolutely, we have heard the phrase you play too much
ken the response to that be you probably don't play enough.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean I think that as we as
we grow up, we're taught to not play right. Part
of school, A huge part of school is learning how
to suppress your play instincts. Right. It's like when we're children,
we want to play the most, and that is when
we are taught Nope, hold still, you're gonna sit it,
you're gonna go indoors, you're gonna hold still. And so
(01:54):
we learn how to become adults by learning how to
not play right. So you're telling me that.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
So when we're toddlers and we're at home and we're
just playing with possibly, y'all. She's also the inventor and
the design of rigamajig, So you're trying to if you're
telling me that those if you had a rigamajig at
home or Legos, which you have also helped work on,
so that stops when you went to school, even though
(02:24):
we had playtime at school, but that was still structured.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Yeah, I mean, I think in many ways and many
schools I'm making some like over generalizations here, but a
lot of schools, particularly like the pre k kindergarten, first grade,
they do integrate playful learning right, and if they and
children still play like you can't keep a toddler from
playing right, And we know, of course that that is
(02:48):
how they learn, and so you know, it's part of
it's integrated into our school system and our kind of pedagogy.
When when we're younger and then the older we get,
the less and less we're allowed to play, right, and
we kind of you mentioned you brought up free play, right,
or we like we play for the sake of a
(03:09):
specific outcome, or we kind of things get more structured
the older we get, and I think as that happens,
we get further and further from our kind of inner
instinctive drive to play. And so by the time we're adults,
of course, we're pretty disconnected from it, in part because
we've learned that that's just not how we're supposed to act.
(03:30):
So there's all kinds of then kind of this idea
that that you're going to be judged or people won't
take you seriously, or people won't think that you're smart
if you're playful. Yeah, you know, so play is is
kind of like the opposite of serious, and like as
you as you grow up, like serious is better, right,
Serious is how we how we are productive, and play
(03:54):
is seen as kind of frivolous or not necessary in
a way.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
That is, Yeah, to apologize to my ex because we
always used to like to play and horse play and
tickle and all this stuff, and I'm like, we're too
old for that.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Oh okay, I mean you don't have to like it.
If you didn't like it, you're allowed to not want
to be I don't like to Tickling is a whole
I hope someone has. I'm sure that there's some kind
of research or something, because tickling is like weird. It's
like control, there's like physical things, you're having instincts, like
(04:30):
so much is going on in the dynamic of being tickled.
I hope somebody looks into that.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
I hope somebody looks into that. And I'm like, oh
my gosh, all he wanted to do was play and
left and I suppressed that. No, but I promise you,
I've just been looking forward to this because I think
that I have a good sense of humor.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
But then that might not be enough.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Do we just need to get our hands ends moving?
Is it coloring? Building? Is it a hobby?
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah? Help us? Yeah? Well, I think, uh, you know,
I think that having a sense of humor is being playful. Uh.
I think language is one place that we can be
really playful, not just in like making jokes, but even
in kind of reframing the way that we think. Right. So,
having a playful mindset is one thing that can really,
(05:28):
I think, especially in times of adversity or uncertainty, reframing
something right. I think a lot of a lot of
particularly like right now, like things are not what we
imagined they would be, or they're not what we think
they're supposed to be, right, and so it's it's hard
for us in uncertain times to kind of figure out
(05:51):
how to approach something that's not what we expect, right.
And so so one way that you can have a
playful mindset and approach things like that is just like,
all right, so what if we kind of play with
our expectations and like shift what we expected and try
that on. Maybe if instead of assuming you know that
(06:12):
I was gonna be able to retire at a certain age,
you know, what would it look like if instead this? Right?
And if we approach things as like you know, you
can think of it as kind of prototyping a different
way or just like being playful with like what is
the future going to look like? Right? And the more
we in general, the more we play, the more comfortable
(06:35):
we are with uncertainty, right, Because inherent with play is
that you don't maybe know what the outcome is going
to be, or you kind of dabble in things where
you're like, what if this? What if this? Right? So,
just in being playful, we become more comfortable with the unknown,
which then of course makes us more comfortable stepping into
(06:56):
in general when life happens.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
And was just about to ask why do we stop
playing and imagining as adult and you're, well, maybe you're
answering it for me because as you're adulting, you're taught
by a certain age you should have this. You should
have this in your saving you should have this in
(07:19):
your four all one, okay, you should have children or
a partner by this time in your life. And is
that keeping us from well you just said, play with
our expectations?
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Maybe yeah, tear the list up? Yeah right? Well yeah?
Or ask yourself like is that gonna work for me?
Like is that actually what I wanted? Or is that
just what I was supposed to want?
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Right?
Speaker 2 (07:50):
And I think that's a huge part of a lot
of what I think middle adulthood, right, Like do you
I don't know how if you like astrology, but do
you know about the Saturn return when we turn twenty
eight years old and an astrologer would be much better
at talking about this. But when we turn twenty eight,
of course a lot is going on in our stars.
(08:11):
But also it's kind of like when often people realize like, Okay,
I've achieved all the things I was supposed to achieve,
and then they kind of are kind of sitting with it,
like I have the job and maybe I have the family,
or I bought the bought into the system, and I'm
like succeeding in all the ways that I was told
I'm supposed to. And often people around the age of
twenty eight will kind of say like, wait a minute,
(08:33):
I'm not happy though, or this doesn't really feel fun,
like these are the things I thought I would want
and yet right. So I think that there comes a
moment in most people's lives when maybe they realize like, oh,
I was like doing all the things I was supposed
to do, and they may not be right for me,
they're right for some people. For some people that's amazing
(08:54):
and they're super happy and that's great, and for others
they're like, ah, hold on, this isn't either I'm trying
to get these things and it's not working, or they
have these things and it's not making them happy. Right.
So there's also this like kind of like reframing. One
of the things about a playful mindset is reframing success,
right that in order to be more playful, one of
(09:16):
the ways is is to reframe success like is success
that you have the family, house, retirement plan, et cetera.
Or is success that like you have friends and you
have fun and you're happy and you're taking care of
your body. Right, So what does success look like is
a huge way to kind of like be more playful
(09:38):
in your in your mindset. And also I think like
kind of be more open to what something might look
like and and be present in what you have rather
than trying to strive for something that maybe isn't feasible
or right.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Yeah, I feel like I'm in an amazing workshop that
I'm glad I came to that I'm attending, I'm taking notes.
I say that also because corporations like Nike.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Google bring you in is it would it be for? Like?
Speaker 1 (10:15):
So sometimes we hear of leadership conferences and things like that,
and I feel like this is something that we all
need to hear, especially if you're not working in corporate
you might be a chef, you might be an actor,
you might be a doctor, you might be a teacher.
But I'm so loving you say reframe success because that
(10:38):
could be a huge way to be playful in our mindset.
Did something happen with you personally along the way where
you got this revelation?
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Yeah, I mean I think ever since there was a child,
I knew that I was not gonna fit in. Like
I was a queer kid. My gender was weird, my
family was pretty odd, you know. I was raised with
(11:11):
divorced parents and different configurations of step siblings and things
in the seventies, so there weren't a lot of us
bumping around at that point. And I was an artist,
which was weird. So I think early on I knew
that the model that I was being shown on TV
and kind of in life in terms of what we're
(11:32):
meant to grow into, was not for me. So that
was we felt kind of strange and a little bit
stressful because I was like, all right, well, if it's
not that I know what I don't want, but I
don't see anything that looks like something that I want, right.
But I think what that meant was that everything kind
of was up in question, like I didn't assume anything
(11:56):
about my life or about the way that things need
to work. So in a way, I feel pretty lucky
and that I then got to kind of imagine and
invent everything as I went, which is also kind of
how I became a toy designer. I didn't know that
a toy designer was a thing I could be, but
that's kind of what I wound up doing. And then
(12:18):
even with toy designers, I don't really I've designed a
number of toys, but I've also done playgrounds and playspaces
and I worked with so even in that, I'm kind
of doing it my own weird way, and like you mentioned,
I work with companies to help them figure out how
their teams can be more playful, and so it's fun.
(12:38):
It's meant that I kind of have gotten to make
it up as I go.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Yes, have you done at see things in airports for
children and either some knockoff of what you designed or
it's something you done.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Yeah, there's great. I mean it's interesting. Like airports, I
always think about, like what type of play is would
kids need in this particular scenario? Right, So if kids
are about to get on an airplane, I would give
them gross motor skills, like let them run and climb,
Like it should be big and rowdy, right, because they're
(13:15):
going to have to sit still, so let's let them
let off some steam. Right. So every every like play,
anything I'm designing, like has a slightly different scenario of
like what kind of play do they need? Right? Like
I think adults also could use some kind of gross
motor skill, Like adults need to do yoga before they
get on an airplane.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
So when we see kids running around in the airport,
don't look at them like.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
They're career let them, yeah, clap them, tell them to
race faster, heard jump higher?
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Like, oh yeah, apps so hard, wear yourself out.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Have ye lass? Absolutely? Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Speaking of things that you have designed and with toys,
I want to as it might be personal homeline. Do
you Is your home just filled with building blocks and
collar and all that good stuff?
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Yeah? Kind of my right now. I try to keep
my studio in a separate space. Okay, yeah, no, but
in your studio, yeah, my studio, yes, I have. There
is a lot of stuff. It's too much. I'm working
on it. And then I have a little this where
(14:28):
I'm in my house right now, and it's and it's
like I try to keep just a few whatever project
I'm working on in that moment. But but it's also
it's kind of my studio has like a wood shop
because I need I make things. I need to tinker
as part of my process. I'll do anything to avoid
sitting still. So yeah, my process is very hands on
(14:53):
and uh, and it's funny my partner is an educator
and so also kind of a about building blocks. We
both have very specific blocks that we like. And they're children. Yeah, there,
their kids have have a block set that we've we've
had a lot of conversations about because the you know,
(15:15):
and and well, neither of us can just play with
the blocks. Both of us have to be total nerds
as we play with blocks and talk about what it
means to have less of the units and more of
the abstract shapes and are we trying to make a
thing or are we just you know, is it is
it more zen when I just have shapes so that
I can't make a specific thing. I'm just stacking forms,
you know. So uh yeah, even at home, I'm I
(15:38):
think I'm always I'm always a toy designer.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
I love this invite us over.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
We want to Yeah, yeah, to play.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
I want to just say this statement and tell me
what comes to mind when you think when I say it.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Okay, fear a failure? Yeah, play more and also human
of course, everybody's afraid of failure. Failure is scary, and
if you play more, you'll get more comfortable with it
and realize that, like failing is also learning. I call
it failure, call it like false starts, call it yeah, learning.
(16:20):
Half of the things that I do don't work, and
then I pay attention to why they didn't work so
I can do it different the next time.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Say that again, you said half of what you do.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Did it work? Yeah? And also that's an understatement. It's
probably like nine out of ten things that I do
don't work, but I don't know what's going to work
until I try, right, So you have to do it wrong.
But then the trick is to pay attention and focus
on what you're learning, like what I learned, like ah,
(16:55):
that screw isn't going to be compatible with that glue,
or like oh, kids didn't like that one because it
didn't work with that other thing, or this was hard,
you know, right, So I'm paying attention to why so
that then the next round will be better. Right. I
think this is also where we're we're tinkering, and tinkering
(17:15):
might be with it if you if you like cooking,
right when you're cooking and you're like and you make something, Oh,
this time it was too salty, So next time I'll
the salt or more cream or whatever it is, right,
So so we have to test, we have to try
it in order to figure out what'll work. So in
it's hard. Sometimes it's discouraging. Every once in a while,
(17:36):
I really want it to work because I just kind
of feel done. But and it happens in little ways
and in really big ways. Uh, you know with my
my for me, I have this business, and business is
not my.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Passion, right, Creativity is most creators the business.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Yeah, acumen is out the door, right. And of course,
like I've been creative in my business in ways that
maybe I didn't need to be creative. So I've learned,
and I've done it really differently each time. Right, So yeah, yeah,
yeah learn If we're not we're not failing, we're learning.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
What are your thoughts about play and our mental health?
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Oh? Man? Well it's interesting. So I had with this book.
I have a co writer, Lydia Dinworth, who is a
science writer, and so she did a deep dive of
research looking for any anything about adults in play. And
there are a number of people who are working in
play in the broad sense. Stuart Brown is a favorite
of mine. He's really wonderful scientist, and she's got a
(18:46):
great ted talk and IF and IF and a number
of other researchers who will do research like uh, play
in the broader sense. But there's very little about adults
in play specifically, which was interesting, and I'm hoping that
there will be more. Right, I think that part of
what I hope to do with the book is help
(19:07):
us all kind of respect play and really see the
value of it and therefore prioritize it, which might lead
to more research. But that said, we do know that
play is essential for our health. I think it's as
important as like a good diet and exercise and sleep.
That being play deprived also will make you a miserable
(19:30):
human in the same way that being derived would, And
of course the research shows that as well, that it
makes us much more agile, so more flexible when faced
with adversity, and I think that that can be a
little bit counterintuitive. People think like no, I'm you know,
I'm struggling, or the world is chaotic, like this is.
(19:56):
We maybe don't have the instinct to play when things
are hard, but that's actually exactly when we should play.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
So right now, what's going on in society, he I'm
hearing you say, don't tune it all out. Be aware, Yeah,
but still play.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Especially in our communities, Like right now, it's for the
communities who are struggling through a lot of what's happening
in the US, in particular, because we are in the US,
I'll address our particular issues. Yeah, absolutely, Like playing together
is the way that we remember, like we reconnect with
(20:37):
each other so we feel less isolated, right because that's
one of the things that gets hard and scary, and
that's kind of part of the goal of what the
administration is doing right now is trying to make us
not feel connected to each other and make us feel
terrified and alone. So the more we come together and
connect and dance and sing and you know, have picnics
(20:59):
and have cookouts and meet and hav impromptu perk parties,
the better off will be. Like we can then be
like repowered or you know, if we fill our batteries
in our hearts and then we can go back out
and keep existing, keep being who we are, and know
we're not alone. Thank you so much for that.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
I'm thinking about all the black parties and cookouts and picnics.
I'm like, when is the last time I went to
a black party a picnic.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
A friend of mine did have a cookout Memorial Day weekend.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Oh good, But I'm like New York City though in
the summer, there are black parties everywhere, some of everywhere.
And your book, part of the subtitle of your book,
you said playful and being playful inspires connections, but we
got to go out to connect.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
What are your thoughts on a playful mindset and connecting
with people and being creative? Have you seen the change
since COVID happened when we were all isolated?
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Oh? Yeah, interesting. Yeah, that's a great question. I think
that I think that well, first of all, coming back in,
I think we all were very timid, like just out
of practice, right. I think that that playful as a mindset,
it's also kind of a must. There's muscle memory, there's
habits that are playful, and of course like socializing is
(22:40):
a habit, and I think so everybody coming back in
I noticed a lot in when I would be just
in public. I think we all were kind of like, like,
how how do we interact with strangers? Or how do
I interact with friends? You know? And so so uh.
And I don't think it took us all that long
to come back into it, thankfully, at least in New York.
(23:02):
Everything came back online pretty quickly. In ways, I think
that it made us really appreciate what we got and
what we need from being social creatures.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Right.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
I think maybe before COVID, we never had a reason
to realize how important it is to us, and then
when we didn't have it, we really were like, Okay,
this is the thing that has an immense value and
we will prioritize. Yes. So I think since COVID, maybe
(23:36):
I think we also what's tricky about it is that
and and this is just my impression, but it feels
like because we've stuck with remote work, we've also had
to be very intentional with planning social stuff. And I
(23:59):
think that's how to really the terrible impact on our
on our work habits. Like I think being around people
who aren't our friends, Like we used to do that
all the time at work, right, and maybe they were
our friends or maybe we kind of knew them, but yeah,
we were we were we had habits of being around
people who were our workmates or whatever. But whether or
(24:19):
not we liked them or chose to be with them
wasn't the point. We were we just knew how to
be around each other. And I think that's a bit
lost now. I think we we have to kind of
go out of our way or we have play dates
or we like make plans to do it. And what
it means is like we maybe have fewer of the
(24:42):
informal relationships with people where maybe they're kind of friends,
but we know how to interact, right, And maybe there's
even some conflict resolution that we have to practice or
had to practice when we were in offices more, and
being in offices more meant we were like eating lunch
in centers with other people. So I think, in a
(25:05):
weird way, we've lost some informal social skills. Okay, that
in my mind, like that has it had It has
had an impact on play because now you know again
like it it feels like it's it's something we have
to plan or design rather than just kind of like
(25:27):
being playful, you know, whether it's yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
I am thinking of the excitement of wanting to talk
to you. How this interview has just organically progressed. The
weird question that is coming to mind is playful and
the introvert.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Well, if there's someone listening right now, like.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Wait a minute, black party, wait a minute, playfulness, I
gotta I gotta connect.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
With people to be playful. I don't think that's what
she's saying. No, no, not at all. It's a great
it's a great way. And however, yeah, I am. I tackle.
I for many years lived alone, and so would would
find myself like kind of tinkering around the apartment or
rearranging my apartment and kind of just playing by myself,
(26:22):
which you know, whether it's tinkering with something trying to fix,
or like rearranging a shelf, because it's kind of fun
and satisfying. And I think we don't always let ourselves
do that because it doesn't feel productive, right, But if
in the middle of the day you just really need
to move some things around and feel like you have
you know, you've got a prop style your your shelf,
(26:45):
then let yourself do that because there's something that's telling
you you need to and for some reason that makes
you feel better, you know, yeah, and you need I'd
call it like kind of attention play. So in the book,
I tried to make kind of a ta taxonomy of
adult play types, like the ways that we play that
we may not think of play.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
Yeah, because I was going to ask how do we play?
I know what's coming out in your book in October,
which we're so excited about it. I'm like, maybe we
should have you back one more. Yeah, well also the
release or after the release.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
I'm so interested to I'm excited for you to read
it because I know you're incredible at playing. Yeah, you know,
singing and dancing and acting and and some of the
play prompts because people are always asking me, yeah, but
how you know? And so I'm like, all right, I'll
give you some I'm not going to tell you how
to play. Nobody can tell you how to play, but
(27:41):
I will help you. I will help you connect with
your play right, And I'll give you some prompts. What
if you try this? What if you try this and
along the way, notice what feels good or right or
what really clicks with you and then you'll like get
to you like read you're gonna re acclimat or reacquaint
(28:01):
yourself with your play. But I but actors. I was
in particular, like I feel like so playful, so good
at play, and so good at kind of rolling with unexpected.
I've always been really inspired by improv, you know, because
of the yes andness or the what if part, and
(28:23):
the agility, like very agile minded with kind of rolling
with whatever comes up. So I think, yeah, I'm excited
to hear what you think of the book as someone
who plays professionally.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
So freaking loutely, and I play someone Viola van Horn.
She created this potion that helps you live forever, and
it now I think she's the total opposite of who
I am. That's why I love playing her eight times
(28:56):
a week. Man, I am some but at the same time,
I am some one who would take the potion because
I'm nosy, I would want to live.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Yeah, the thing is you live forever and you're.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Unable to die, which is I mean, that's a commitment.
That is a commitment, and depending on your beliefs about
what happens in the after, you know, you're kind of
shutting down we don't know what that might be an
interesting option out they say.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
It's supposed to be better, and then here you are living.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Earthquakes in New York. Who would have thought, Yeah, yeah,
that's what y'all want to continue to live through me.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yes again, I'm nosy, Okay, I am nosy, But yeah,
so you are so right about being able to do
something day after day, night after night, connecting with people
in a different way from the stage to the audience
that makes them last. Then it helps them for that
for at least two and a half hours. You're gonna
(30:03):
laugh your socks off.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
Hmmm, wonderful, you know, you know, go ahead, just the
I'm just catching up to like now, of course, because
I'm still thinking, like, oh, would I want to live forever?
Like oh, well, that the thing about living forever is
that you could have you could just be a different
person every forty years. You could be like, Okay, now
I'm going to try being this type of you know,
(30:28):
maybe you can't change your brain all the way, but
you can be like now, I'm going to try to
be like an accountant, and then this next time I'm
going to go for professional athlete, right or like now,
I'm gonna be like, and I just want to go
live on it. I'm going to be a monk. So
you could really like just try it. As long as
you were a curious, adventurous person, you could like go,
you could have a lot of experiences. You would literally
(30:52):
forever be evolving. Yeah, yeah, that could be. I mean,
and of course, like by the time you kind of
ran out of types or ran out of jobs, there
would be whole new ones because the world also changes
every ten minutes. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
Yeah, I'm so excited, y'all. Cast home and thank you
so much for your work. I consider it literal work
of light, y'all. When I got the opportunity, when this
came across my email, and I began to research because
I was like, I need to play more. I need
(31:28):
to find a hobby other than watching Judge.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Judy all the every day. I need to find something
to do.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
But I'm so glad we talked about it, but that
it's also a mindset, and so I am going to
be intentional about that, playing with our expectations and shifting
what we expect. That is absolutely huge, because I think
that can paralyze or make you shrink if because of
(31:57):
disappointment of an unmet expectation. You're not gonna be playful
because of disappointment.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Yeah, yeah, releasing release judgment is a huge part of it.
Releasing judgment from yourselts again, right, yeah, Like don't like,
no one's gonna judge you if you go and roll
down that grassy slope, right or maybe they will, but
who cares. Don't judge yourself, right, And so there's like
(32:25):
the releasing the assumption that like, oh, you'll look silly,
or like, oh I can't do that playful thing, like
I can't dance in the line at the supermarket even
though I love that song. Like just if you release judgment,
actually you can and it feels great.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
I love this so much, Cass, you are forever a
friend of checking in podcast any time, y'all. I'm excited
about her book. It does not come out until October.
Maybe we'll replay this in October. I don't want to
date this episode, but this will live on for a
(33:01):
long long time, and I know you'll come back and
see us.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Yeah, and you can pre order it now so that
it's like queue up and it'll just come when it's ready.
You get some bonus content, some extra stuff from me.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
So okay, yeah, okay, we're excited about that.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Thank you for checking out. Thank you, Michelle. It's wonderful.
We'll see you soon. Okay, y'all.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
I'm so curious about what y'all think about this episode.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
I was so.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Excited to do this interview because I think I'm just
in a space of especially with creativity and not being
ashamed to be playful and not being ashamed to try.
I think sometimes we stop being playful because of fear
of failure. I hope this episode inspires you to get
(33:49):
out there and play. Checking In with Michelle Williams is
(34:42):
a production of iHeartRadio and The Black Effect. For more
podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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