February 16, 2021 • 45 mins
Michelle and DeVon have a much needed conversation about relationships that will be valuable to singles and couples! They dive into understanding men in relationships, the consequences of getting in the way of your lover’s dreams and purpose, the significance of tone when communicating with your partner, and celibacy. CHECK IN to this episode to make sure you keep honor and respect in your romantic relationships!
Find DeVon Franklin on Instagram!
https://www.instagram.com/devonfranklin/
To pre-order DeVon’s book “Live Free: Exceed Your Highest Expectations”, visit https://devonfranklin.com/
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Checking In with Michelle Williams, a production of
My Heart Radio and The Black Effect. Hi. Everyone, it's
Michelle Williams. Today we're gonna talk about relationships, romantic relationships
(00:23):
and purpose. This may be a loaded topic for some
of you, and I know that I have some words
to share on this and I've got some questions. I
want to share a quote with you to start off
the podcast. The art of love is God at work
through you. It's really something to strive for. But why
is that so hard to keep in mind when you're
in a relationship. Romantic relationships can be some of the
(00:46):
most beautiful times in a person's life, but also the
most trying. I'm not gonna lie to listen. I can
do about eight podcasts on that. So my personal message
on today's themes of romantic relationships and do the work.
My next guest has written New York Times best selling
books on matters of the heart, and he's going to
(01:07):
share his knowledge. Coming up on Checking In with Michelle Williams, You, guys,
(01:35):
I want to introduce to you, guys somebody so special.
He's incredible and he's like a brother to me. A
force in media and entertainment, a leading authority on inspiration,
and an amazing speaker and writer on wellness and personal development.
Divine Franklin. Yes, he's an award winning film producer, New
York Times bestselling author and motivational speaker. Variety magazine named
(02:00):
him one of the top ten producers to watch, and
Oprah has called him a bona fide dynamo. Please welcome
my guests, Divine Franklin. Yo, listen, I'm just I am
your your brother. You even need to introduce me to
all that stuff. Well, you know, I wanted you gotta
respect something sometimes, you know what when people read off
the things that you've done, because you probably don't pay
(02:24):
attention to that on a daily You're walking it, you're
living it. But it does make you sit in wonder like, well,
thank you God. Yeah, Oprah does call me that, but
it matters God more what you call me. But I
(02:44):
love it. I love it. I love it. Yes, ladies
and gentlemen, Divine Franklin has been a brother. We have
not talked in a while, but it does not stop anything.
You already know the admiration that I have for you,
that the world has for you as a man of God.
And I don't know if that adds any pressure to you, um,
but it seems like you really do walk what you
(03:08):
talk about. And I know that you're gonna give us
some gems on how to do that and how to
navigate temptation, how to navigate something that you want now
but delaying it for the better later. So I'm excited
to talk to you today. I'm always excited to talk
with you. It's always good to see you. Listen, and
one of these days and maybe at some points in
(03:30):
this conversation we can chat about even I might add
some personal experience or just you know, some things that
have happened with me that she definitely attempted to coach
me on. But yeah, yeah, alright, so it's okay, yes sir, yes, sir. Now, divine,
(03:53):
everybody knows that you are a married man and a
great husband. Now I don't know that you're a great husband.
I'm not married to you, but my good sister making
good is married to you, and she just first of all,
it goes to show how the wife speaks of her husband,
(04:14):
and we need to hear the point of view of
a Christian man. But at the end of the day,
without the label of Christian. Do you feel that all
men are the same and have the same needs, Well,
in in in the day to day life, meaning no
needs are different, but in terms of you know, is
(04:34):
there a general Are there general things that men struggle
with or that men want? I do think there are
some general things, but then I think those general things
take a specific shape depending on that particular um, you
know man. Yeah, So I think that to say all
men have the exact same need maybe as too much
(04:57):
of a generalization. Okay, I believe that, you know, most
men have some you know, some consistent needs that gett
met differently. Okay, okay, because the question that the statement
was we need to hear the point of view of
a Christian man and get some really good advice on
matters of the heart. But I was just swarting, Okay,
(05:19):
the point of view of a Christian man versus just
the point of view of a man. Well all, I'm sorry, no, no,
I'm just gonna say, I mean, yes, that is probably
a little bit different, right, because if you're saying, you know,
as a man who is a follower of Christ and
committed to a life of Christ, that does lead to
some slightly different commitments than probably a man who's not walking.
(05:41):
That walker hasn't made that commitment yet. Yeah, yes, sir, Yes, sir.
In your book The Truth About Men, you reveal what
men are all about. Now. I love sitting talking to
men about men, and I don't know if everybody is
ready to really hear the men have to say about
(06:02):
relationships about women. I remember a few weeks ago my
brother had the nerve to tell my mom he didn't
like something about her hair because the textures didn't match.
The we've and her hair texture didn't match. And I
was like, oh my god, how many men walk around
(06:23):
looking at stuff like that? But I'm so glad my
brother was able to share what I The hairstyle was cute,
but he was like, yeah, the textures don't quite match.
So I'm just wondering. I am eager to learn about
things that men think, but they probably don't say a
lot of men I believe half tact and believe. Well,
(06:45):
I'm gonna say that I don't know her like that,
but I'm eager to get into the mind of a man,
and I'm excited for you to tell us. What are
some of the things we women should know that's general
and broad. But come on on in. Um. You know, look,
I'll just jump in and you know, go on direct,
(07:09):
Um what should women know? In my experience? Um, I've
been a man for forty two years now. Um. You
know one of the things that I think sometimes women
miss is that every man, and this is a generalization,
is on a mission to fulfill their their purpose. They're
calling like and it's like for most men that I know,
(07:31):
it's an obsession right like we are just here, you know.
I mean I know it is for me, like I'm like,
oh man, you know, I'm here to fulfill this mission,
complete what I'm supposed to do. Uh. And so you know,
early on in my in my you know, journey to manhood, Uh,
there was a book that I read and it said,
you know, the two most important questions that every man
(07:53):
has to ask themselves is one where are you going?
And to who are you taking with you? And and
I think that what happens with it, you know, and
again this is generalizing, but you know what happens with
women in my experience when it comes to dating is
if you don't like where that man is going, don't
hold his hand and go because what happens is a
(08:15):
woman in my experience season man. Oh, and they love
where he's going and that attracts them initially, and then
all of a sudden they get with him and they
want the man to say, wait, hey, wait, come so down,
don't go something, come back, come come over here. And
then it's like but no, no, no no, no, no, I no,
come with me. Let's go, let's go. We can do
this together. But like, you want me to slow down,
and like, but the thing that got you attracted to
(08:37):
me was me being focused and me being determined and
having a mission. And then now that I'm with you, right,
all of a sudden you want me to slow down
or turn my eye from the mission and turn it
towards you. Now I want you to I want you
to look at this for a minute. So so let's
just say, right, as a as a man, I'm going
(08:57):
towards where God would have me to. Uh. Right. So
then I get with a woman, you know, and oh,
she loves me. I love her. But let's say she's saying, no, no,
I need to I need to be your focus. So
so instead of your mission being your focus, I need
to be your focus. Now, now look at this if
I'm going like this and this is the this is
(09:18):
the destination, I'm walking towards it. I can see it.
I'm clear right now. What happens if I turned towards
my partner and I try to go there? It doesn't
work as well? Do you think women do? I don't
want to get in trouble by saying this, Lord Jesus
be you know I sang the song independent Women, but
(09:42):
I didn't sing a song about an insecure woman. Do
you think that when you're insecure you're telling the man
no focus on me, because maybe does she feel left
out if he's focused? Was like, no, he's not. He's
holding your hand while he's right. So so this is
this is this is a great, great question, and I
want to unpack it so you know the reason why
(10:02):
I brought that point about. You know, where are you going?
And do you like where this man is going? And
if you do, and you all can both both go together? Right.
So she's following her purpose and what God has called
her to do. He's following her his purpose and what
God has called him to do. And you guys are
holding hands and you're doing it together. Right. That's where
the rhythm and the harmony is and that's where the
(10:24):
power is. But when you want him to slow down,
or if he's saying, hey, I need you to slow down,
or I don't want you to do the things that
you want to do, or I don't want then that's
when you realize, wait a minute, there's something off here.
And I think one of the things that that in
my experience I want I want women to understand is
that a man committed to his purpose it has nothing
(10:46):
to do with you. Meaning like, just because he's committed
and puts a lot of time and energy and effort
into what he's called to do, it's not like, oh,
I'm I'm not putting that time into you, you know.
And I think sometimes um women make men make this
false choice of oh, you know, it's either what you
do or it's me, you know. And to me, when
I have seen most men give the woman everything they
(11:08):
want when it comes to attention and time is when
they know and believe that the woman that is in
their life is one thousand percent committed to their calling
and when they are committed to where she's going. So
in terms of insecurity, I don't think it's insecurity always
as driving that. I think you can be a very
secure woman and still want a certain level of attention
(11:30):
and still want a certain level of of of of consideration.
But I think the trap is looking at what a
man is called to do as the problem to why
you are not getting the attention you may want. If
your man is not giving you the attention you want,
don't create the reason why. Just deal with that hey
(11:53):
have need for more attention. You know, here's what I
would like, and let the man tell you, yeah, I
can do that or I can't. But when I think
this is where women, women just mess up, and I'm generalizing,
do not make what he's called to do the obstacle
to your relationship. That happens you start to lose your
(12:18):
man in the same way. If you're a man, you know,
and you are making what your woman is called to
do an obstacle to your relationship, you're gonna lose her
because she has to feel completely committed to what she's
called to do, and she has to feel supported in
that the same way a man has to feel supported. Absolutely.
I think what happens is that there's a difference in expectation.
(12:41):
You know, my next book is called Live Free it's
all about managing expectations and learning and and unspoken expectations
are a relationship killer because what happens You get into
this relationship and you think this person just because they
love you that they know they don't unless you communicate
here's my need, here's my expectation for attention. Can you
(13:02):
meet that expectation and let the person that you're with
tell you, yes, you know what, I can do that,
or you know what they look I love you, but
I can't do that. I can't do it. Like if
you expect me to be home every single night at
seven o'clock and I have certain type of career, but
I can't do that. In too often in relationships there's
these unspoken expectations, and then we get mad at somebody
(13:22):
when they don't meet what we never verbalize or ask
if they can meet, and then we want to know
why things don't work. Yeah, so again, long answer your question,
But it's not always insecurity at play. A lot of
times there's an unspoken expectation that's really underneath, uh the issue, man,
And then I want to get to the root of
why do those things go unspoken? I know for me
(13:44):
there are times I didn't speak up in a situation
because I didn't want that man to feel like I
question his leadership. So I'm not gonna say anything. I
don't want to come across as nagging. But those are
things in my uh, because I'm in my dad at
hated if my mother asked him to do something or
if she spoke something, Oh, you're just nagging, just nagging.
(14:06):
It's like, no, there is an actual leak under the sink.
She wants you to fix it. You know, we're gonna
be drowning in this house, you know. And so just
to know that it is okay to speak your expectations.
What is a turn off in how it's spoken or
what is a turn off tone? It's all about the tone.
(14:28):
It's uh, it's not necessarily the mail, but it's how
the mail is delivered. And uh, I do believe that
most men have a desire to be respected in that respect.
And I want to be clear about this. Respect me
enough to tell me the truth and also respect me
enough to treat me and talk to me in the
(14:50):
same way you would want to be talked to. So
when you talk about tone, it's about you know, what
I still got. I have to speak my truth right
like I cannot because see, there's a difference between being
supportive and being passive. And and be supportive, but don't
be passive passive because because as a woman, if you
(15:12):
make the exchange that you think you have to exchange
your voice to keep your relationship, Like that's the exchange.
If I speak up too much, he's going to to
leave or it's gonna be a problem. That's a false choice.
It's not about speaking up to me. It's about how
you do it, you know. And it's about really assessing,
all right, what really is my issue here? And let
(15:32):
me just make sure that I'm articulating it in a
way that uh, it makes good on the respect that
I have, Like I want to make sure my intent
is coming across and how I communicate. I do respect
my man and I have something I need to say.
And here's the other thing. When here's a small practical tip,
write it down. You know, you may read it to
him or you may say, hey, once I wrote it down,
I was able to get my thoughts clear. But if
(15:54):
you are not sure how to deliver the right tone,
when you write it down, it really helps you get
calm and clear on what it is you're trying to say,
but it's it's respect um and I you know Megan,
and I like, I don't. I always love her to
tell me the truth, you know, but when we've had,
you know, certain disagreements a lot of sometimes it's with tone.
I'm like, well, hey baby, wait wait a minute. Now,
(16:15):
I love wait a minute that that was a little aggressive.
I'm just a little aggressive, okay, you know. And here's
the other thing. Sometimes, you know, listen, you're you're one
of the greatest singers in the world, and you know
that great singers have the ability to hear the note
come on and make it plain, come on, come on.
(16:36):
But in relationships sometimes we're tone deaf. You can't actually
hear how you sound. So you need your partner to say, hey,
I understood what you said, but wait a minute, you
were a little pitchy in that that way, the way
you the way you get, the way you said that
was a little pitchy, you know, like like, I love
you enough to tell you that, but like I want
(16:57):
to do what you're asking me, but you know, we
gotta work on your pitch. That's so good because I've
had somebody tell me, hey, if I could replay back
how you said it, you would kind of be shocked.
And I'm like, no, you're just tripping women, especially Black women.
You know, we come with a little extra seasoning and
(17:22):
how we say things. And you know, because I'm like,
I know, I'm not the rolling of the neck and
blah blah blah. You know I don't do that. And
I don't think my tone. Listen to tell me somebody,
I don't think my tone. You know it is aggressive.
I call it passion. Yes, you can be passionate, but
(17:45):
and still respect. You think that we bring it down
a few decibls. Just listen. I don't want to feel
like I gotta sing song what I gotta say? You know, honey,
I was just thinking that. You know, I really didn't
like when you didn't call me back when you said
you would. How come I just can't say, Hey, I
really didn't like when you didn't call me back when
you said you would. I Okay, the great for this perfect.
(18:07):
So there's a book, um that's phenomenal and I highly
recommend everyone reading. Is called non violent Communication. Non violent communication,
nonviolent communication. Yes, so, so there's nothing wrong with expressing.
How do you feel the issue sometimes is expressing it
in a way that makes good on your intent. Are
(18:29):
you expressing it as a weapon against your partner or
are you expressing it as a way to produce more healing,
more communication, and more connection with your partner those two things.
Are you expressing it as a weapon so that there
are some inner hurts and some inner unmet needs that
(18:49):
that person has to yes, worked really get through. Yeah
what I mean? And I keep going back to unmet needs.
I know at the top of two nine team, you know,
my engagement ended in eighteen and at top of ninth nineteen,
I went to this retreat called Healing the Heart, and
they began breaking down the ten un thee ten emotional
(19:13):
needs that a child needs, and if they don't get
those emotional needs men in their childhood, those symptoms begin
to manifest in their adulthood. Throughout your responses, and I
was like, I wish I knew this twenty years ago,
because my responses, non verbal or however I decided to respond,
would have been much different and I wouldn't have had
(19:34):
to pay thousands of dollars in therapy. Oh you know
what I mean. Just your responses some of the root
is you didn't get affirmation, you didn't get attention, you
didn't get respect, you didn't get security, um, just affection,
you know, um growing up And so before you know what,
(19:55):
you're using maybe some of those hurts that you're not
healed from and don't even know you're not healed from them,
and you're using something like you said, as a weapon. Yes,
that's not safe, and you want to be a safe person.
You know. I've heard somebody say I can't make you
trust me, but I can create an atmosphere or the
environment for to trust me. Talk to me like you
(20:19):
got some sense, okay. And so while we're talking about
this communication and somehow those uh, those lack of communication
skills caused conflict. When it comes to conflicts and relationships,
what's worth fighting for? And when is it time to
call it quits? Okay? And when it comes to conflict
(20:40):
in relationship, what's worth fighting for? You know? I think
love is worth fighting for for sure. You know. I
think that if there is love in that relationship and
then you owe it to both of you to fight
to to keep that, I think freedom is worth fighting for. Um.
You know, a relationship should not be feel like a
(21:00):
prison sentence where you can never be free to be
who you are. You know, if anything, you know, love
in a relationship, when it's the right type of dynamics
should be the most freedom because you have somebody who's
completely committed to you in every way and and it
is supportive and loving and so, you know, the right relationship,
(21:20):
both parties should feel incredibly free. So it's worth fighting for, uh,
your freedom. I think love and freedom are are critical
that we talk about. You know, when is it time
to call it quits? Now? This is a really potentially
complex question because a lot of times in my experience
(21:41):
and I talked about this in my new book called
Live Free. When it come out, it comes out, May
for it, Yeah, I would say, available preorder right now. Yeah. So,
so in this idea of like, Okay, I'm gonna call
it quits, why do people call it quits. Okay, I'm
gonna call it quits because this person is not making
(22:01):
me happy. Let's pause. Okay. So inherent in that statement
is I now have given the authority and control of
my happiness to someone else. So how is it that
someone who even if they love me, they don't know me.
I'm knowing me and God the only one that really
(22:23):
know me. Right, But how is this person? How am
I all of a sudden telling this person it's your
job to make me happy? But wait a minute, I
don't even know what it takes to make myself happy,
and I want you to figure out what makes me happy.
This one of the things where most couples miss it
because when you outsource your happiness to another individual, you're
(22:44):
never gonna be happy. So the first thing is making
sure that you are the keeper of your happiness. You
are the one that is responsible for your happiness. Now
here's here's the concept. The concept is that when people say, oh,
you don't make me happy. Can you imagine if the
person you were within your relationship said you don't make
(23:05):
me money. I'm leaving you because you don't make me
no money. People look at them, crazy, what you're talking about.
That's not the responsibility to make you money. But do
you see how crazy that sounds? Yes, it sounds equally
as crazy when you say you don't make me happy.
Because it's not someone else's job to make money for you.
(23:28):
You are supposed to support yourself, go out there and
make your own money, and then you bring that money
to the relationship, or you bring that money to the marriage,
and then both parties have more because both are doing
what they need to do to provide for the union.
Happiness is the same way. So you gotta do what
makes you happy and find out, Okay, well what really
(23:48):
makes me happy? Let me practice those things that create
happiness and me so I can bring happiness to the relationship.
So it's not when you are not happy that is
not always a sign to run, because here's what happens.
When we get into resistance in a relationship. Our first
response is usually flight. This person is not making me happy.
(24:10):
You know, I don't like how I feel. I'm out
what happens? It's so easy to run and guess what,
you take yourself with you wherever you go. My lord,
the only consistent see between you or myself and anyone
who's dating different people is is you Yeah's it? And
so if you don't, I encourage anyone listening to this
(24:33):
right now, if you're in a difficult relationship, look at
it as a mirror for the work that you need
to do. And I'm talking about something that's not abusive, emotionally, orfically,
So we're not talking about abusive. You're an abusive situation,
get out now, please. But if you're in a situation
where you're like, I don't know, before you call it quits,
(24:55):
ask the question, what is the work that I need
to do on myself? Why? How is this relationship a
mirror to the work that I need to do? Because
if I take on the challenge and do the work,
and then it's like, hey, you know what I can
from a good place, not a negative place. From a
good place, I can say this isn't the right fit.
But I'm so glad I had this opportunity because I
(25:16):
would have never done this work on myself. You know,
we're just not going in the same direction. We're not
like committed to the same things, we don't have the
same values. But if I had never had the resistance,
I would have never gone deeper in my lord. I
would have never done gone deeper into my own development.
So I think before anyone calls it quits, they got
to ask the question, what is the work I gotta do?
(25:38):
You know? And am I blaming someone for something that's
my responsibility? And if the answer is yes, take your responsibility,
do the thing that you need to do, or you
get out of that relationship. This is perfect because you know,
there are a lot of people that can say divine.
I didn't see this model for me growing up. So
(25:59):
I'm so glad at that you guys are listening to
this podcast. By every single book that Devon Franklin has,
follow him on Instagram, wherever you can go, because some
people don't even know what questions to ask. There are
men right now fighting for their marriages and relationships, women
(26:21):
fighting for marriages and for the relationships, and I don't
even think they know the questions to ask. They just
know that there is conflict. They've never seen conflict resolution
in their household, you know, and it's like, how can
you do and be what you never saw? I agree,
I understand that sentiment. It's one of those sentiments though
(26:42):
that I caution anyone to use as an excuse of
course never becoming right, because like, you know, my father
died when I was nine years old. He died of
a heart attack when he was thirty six. Um, you know,
my mother, you know, single mother raised me and my
older brother, my younger brother by herself, obviously with some
help from the family, but you know, we were a
welfare at times, and you know, lived in my with
(27:05):
with my grandparents and all of that. So I can't
tell you that I had a model for a successful
marriage or you know, a life in Hollywood or any
of that. But even without the model, I still was like,
that doesn't me it can be created. So, like you
know what, I'm not gonna let what I didn't see
in my life become an excuse to never become who
(27:26):
I know I believe I can be and who God
is calling me to be. And so even if you've
never had that example, you can still use your mind
and your imagination and use that say oh, what's the
picture you see? Oh I want that? And follow that.
That's powerful. Don't allow what you see in your environment
to be an excuse to not to go over what
you see in your mind. That is so powerful the mind,
(27:48):
and if you focus on that, it can transform and
before you know it, you are just you're literally walking
what you've imagined what you have seen in your mind. Now,
as a teenager, let's talk about the mind and what
you saw. You and Megan authored the book called The Weight,
(28:10):
and it was essentially about celibacy. Now, did you see
yourself at eighteen being celibate. Well, that's a great question.
Did I see myself? You know, it was weird because
I mean I was raising the church, you know, and
you know, I was like, oh, so celibacy was something
that was talked about. But as I mentioned in the book,
(28:32):
and they've talked about before, you know that no one
really talked about how to do it. It was just that, hey,
you know what, you're going to hell right there it is,
and having second before marriage is wrong. That's all we
ever heard. So I had that awareness. So at eighteen
years old, by that point in time, I had already
lost my virginity and had a really it was in
a relationship and me and you know were That was
(28:53):
my senior year, and so I was still a late bloom.
I didn't lose my virginity to tell, my senior year
of high school because so much of this commitment to
be celibate with like a big part of my upbring.
When I was not celibate, you know, it was always
a struggle because I was like, oh, man, you know,
is this what guy wants for me? That not? So
at eighteen years old, it wasn't that I didn't see
(29:13):
myself as celibate. I just wasn't. It wasn't um and
I wasn't at that time. I wasn't exactly sure if
and when I was going to pick back up that commitment.
And I didn't pick back up the commitment until like, Okay,
what do you tell the person that's like, Yo, I've
been out here reckless while and out I've been done
(29:35):
too much to talk about being celibate? How do you
encourage them? Because it's like, if you're having that thought,
a part of me wonders, I think you are you
wanting to be celibate? Do you want to know what
it's like? Maybe you get some healing on that journey.
It's it's kind of like that person that says, I
gotta wait to clean myself up before I go to church,
right right? Um? So I would say a couple of things,
(29:57):
But the first thing that comes to mind is, uh,
to that person that was then this is now make
that your monstra because what happens is that we use
what happened in the past as an excuse to disqualify
us for the future. You know what, Yeah, that may
have been. Then last night you may have you know,
had the best sex of your life. But today you're decided,
you know what I got, I can't do that anymore.
(30:19):
So that was then, this is now. Do not think
that your past this qualifies you for anything in your future.
It doesn't unless you allow it to do that. So
someone is really wondering, well, I've you know, been doing
this and what difference does it make? And I can
never be No, that was then, this is now. There's
the other thing in my experience, the the number one
thing that would cause someone to consider celibacy is pain.
(30:43):
That's good when you have endured consistent emotional pain because
of your sexual choices. And you know, that's the only
thing in my experience the main driver practically virtually, you know,
a commitment to God certainly can get you there, but practically,
(31:04):
if you're not even thinking about God, are you just like, hey,
I want to get it. When you've endured enough pain,
you will be forced to think about another way. And
I'm not saying that everybody who has sex side of
marriage experiences that pain. There's certain people who walk the
cell of the life those who don't and judge unless
you be judged. So I don't you know, passing judgment
(31:24):
on anybody everybody has to walk their journey in this
life according to how they have to ultimately answer to
God no matter what. So I don't judge anybody, but
in terms of what would compel someone to want to
be celibate, right, and my experience, it's when you have
given your heart, your body, and your mind to someone
and then you realize that they didn't want everything you
(31:45):
gave them, they only want what you could give them physically.
That reality can be so demoralizing that you say, there's
got to be a better way. When we wrote The Way,
you know, we had no idea it would go all
around the world. And you know, so many people have
read that book and they talk about how healing it
has been for them because of so much of the
(32:06):
pain they've endured, you know, through a wide variety of
sexual choices. And so, you know, I think when I
talk about the Way, you know, I want to be clear,
like the walk of celibacy to me is not there's
nothing wrong with sex. Sex is great. God made it,
It's all good, you know. It's just sex is incredibly powerful,
and I think growing up we aren't really taught how
to harness and use the power of sex at all.
(32:28):
You know, either we're talked to avoid it or embrace it,
but not like, hey, here's how you navigate your sexuality
in a way that's healthy. And so I do think that,
you know, as someone's trying to navigate this, I think
the main question is, Okay, is this helping me or
hurting me? You know? Is this is this healing me?
Or is this inflicting more pain? And here's the other thing,
(32:50):
you know, I'm saying, like, I'm just gonna be honest,
if if I was single like that, here's the crazy
thing in my experience, you know, talking to you know
a lot of men and women that are dating. I
asked somebody say, hey, so you just you'reen dating to
due for a month, or you've been dating a girl
for a month, would you give him your phone and
give them the code. They'd be like, no, I'm gonna
getting that only a month. But you've already give them
your body. I'm like, I'm like, wait a minute, So
(33:12):
what's in the phone is more valuable than what's in
your heart, what's in your body? M come on now, listen.
You may choose that that's what you want to do,
but I'm saying, please, choose it from a place of trust.
If you don't trust them with your phone, don't trust
(33:35):
but think about it. Needs to shirt. I don't trust
you with my phone, so I don't trust you with
my body. No, until until I feel completely comfortable given
you my phone and my code. I am not giving
you any body. Well, listen, there was a question talking
about some how long are we supposed to wait before
having sex in a relationship? Can't already don't the answer?
(34:00):
But now it's ba baby, until I can trust you
with my phone and even then, you know, there are
a lot of people like I'm not God, don't get
into no folks business. But it's like sometimes too, I
don't care if we're married, you're still not getting the
code to my phone. I might have a surprise for
you that I'm working on and I don't want you
(34:21):
to get. Yeah, okay, right, um, you know look my
belief I listen. I'm a corrn believer, as you know,
you know, wait until marriage. However, nobody doesn't make that choice.
I always recommend please let sex come out of love
and trust and you know and care. Yeah, you know, uh,
you know, please, I mean that's that's why it was
(34:43):
created and you know, look, if someone chooses not to wait,
that's between them and God and the person they choose
to do it with. UM. But I think that when
there's so much just it's so casual, you know, it's
just it's literally like being on the road and you're
driving and you're not following no speed limit, you just
drive however you want to drive. You're gonna hit something.
It is literally, it's it's it's reckless. And I know
(35:04):
we've unpacked so much UM in the amount ofments that
we have, and I know I could talk to you
for forty more minutes, but that's not what we can
do today. But I loved how the weight definitely centers
on celibacy, right, but your talk about mastering delaying gratification
because that can help you in the areas of finance,
(35:24):
family relationships, your goals, and careers. So can we just
unpack that a little bit? That celibacy. Yes, of course
we know it celibacy as abstaining you know, from sex.
But how did you use that or did it just
come automatically where you discovered Wait a minute, I'm thinking
clearer on every area of my life, right, So I'm
(35:44):
gonna tell it to this concept from my new book
to answer this question. So live free me. When I
live free, it means I'm not under the control or
authority mentally, physically, or emotionally of anyone anything. So when
we talk about delayed gratification, what happens is we live
(36:05):
in a in a in a time where everybody wants
things instantly, uh, Instagram and microwave this, and think about, right,
if our WiFi is off for ten seconds, if we
go to a website and it doesn't load in five seconds,
we're like, what's wrong with HiFi? What's wrong my phone?
You know? So what happens when we bring that attitude
(36:26):
and that in patience into our life, we don't live free.
We're completely a prisoner of whatever is happening in the moment.
And when we talk about delayed gratification, what we say
is I'm gonna be patient, right, because good things come
to those who wait. Matter fact, great things come to
those who wait, you know. And I know so many
people from around the world come to you and say, oh,
(36:47):
you know, I want to be a singer and all this.
You know, think about how much time you had to
wait and be patient and not just go for the
first opportunity, but wait for the right opportunity. And so
what you're doing, that's right, that's right, that's right. So
we talk about waiting and delay gratification. It's way bigger
than sex. If you can, if you can master delay gratification,
(37:10):
you can set your whole life up for the best
success ever. Because when you are patient and you said,
you know what, I'm not gonna get there immediately, but
I will get there eventually. It allows you to live
free in the moment because you're not in anxiety, you're
not in frustration, you're not in worry, you're not in doubt,
you're in trust, you're in faith. So when you're even
(37:31):
in your career, you're like, you know what, I know
who I am, I know my skills, and I might
be in a job that I don't like, but it's
all right. I may not be where I want to be,
but I know where I'm gonna be. That's what le
gratification does. It means I don't have to be gratified
right now. I'm gonna get it down pain. I'm gonn actually,
matter fact, I'm gonna doing advance on the gratification I
want I'm gonna take an advance on that and get
(37:52):
it now. I'm gonna be happy in this moment, because
here's a reality. If I'm not happy now, I won't
be happy then whatever the then is for you or
me if I don't practice that happiness now and so
delayed gratification allows me to practice being content, happy and
peaceful in the moment without having whatever it is I'm
aspiring for. I promise if anybody listening to this gets this,
(38:16):
your life will completely change because you go from being
controlled by to being in control, controlled by your thoughts,
controlled by your desires, controlled by you know, other people's
expectations of you. When you live free and you practice
that delayed gratification, now you get your control back, You
(38:36):
get your power. I'm not going to let what I
don't have make me feel less than I feel more
than right now. And whenever I get what it is
I want it will I will only have been practicing
what I wanted to feel when I get it, so
the object of getting it doesn't make me feel any
other way than I always was feeling. This is, in
(38:56):
a nutshell, the power of delayed gratification. Listen, I've seen
divine minister in Bible study at a sin in l A.
And I literally feel like I'm been a cry. I
feel the Holy Spirit. This is supposed to be a podcast,
(39:17):
but I'm like, wait a minute, now, whole spirit now waiting.
They're not supposed to know, but I do feel that,
and I feel that. I feel like waiting also says
that you trust God. And um, there's a walk um
all about you. There's a glow about a person, and
I definitely see that in you and Megan. And how
(39:40):
have y'all been coping with each other in this pandemic? Yeah,
you know, listen to pandemic has been good in always right,
like you know, we've been coping by you know, a
lot of conversations and because we've been um apart, you
know so much. And so this past year is as
her cooking that she's she's a cooking, started cooking. I
(40:04):
started baking, you know, Um, you know, so we had
we've been that far. Has been great. But also, like
every couple, I think the pandemic has really been, um
an incredible mirror because a lot of times as couples,
when you're busy, you run past the mirror. My only
mirror has been these cream cheese brownie. I don't got
(40:26):
nobody to mirror with. That's all right, and moderation as
long as it's in moderation. I mean, it's been good.
I mean I can't, I cannot. Life has been good
and we've gotten a lot out of it. Uh, you know, personally, emotionally, spiritually,
and collectively. Listen, that is so good. Well, I just
(40:46):
thank you so much for sharing on this podcast today.
You always are informative, you uplift, you are practical and fun,
and just thank you y'all. One of my favorite quotes
by Divine. I feel like I'm supposed to put a
tag on there, Dr devinnister divine something. I just feel
(41:08):
like I ain't supposed to be calling you just divine
one of the things that you've said, and I want
to share this with you. Guys. You say anything you
pray for, you need to prepare for. And that's what
I'm also feeling again, UM for this podcast, waiting, not
complicating relationships, learning how to communicate, get in control of
(41:33):
our responses, and just saying things in love, monitoring our tones,
you know, don't be pitchy um in your communication UM
with each other, because when you love somebody, I pray
that it comes out in how you treat them at
what you say, Devine, thank you so much. Is there
one last thing you want to leave us and then
(41:54):
we can sign off? Yeah? You know, like, uh, this
life is short, so you got to really enjoy it,
you know. I just hope anyone listening right now just
really finds their peace, find what makes them, you know,
tick and happy, and and fight for that it's worth
or you are worth fighting for, and never compromise that. Yeah,
(42:15):
that is so good. Divine, Thank you so much, Thank you,
thank you. Listen to you guys. You know, almost after
every podcast, I think the reason why I cried tears
of joys because I am just constantly making sure that
(42:37):
I'm intentional about being in a state of gratitude. But
I don't know if a lot of you guys know
Divine Franklin and Megan Good they were on an episode
of a reality show that I had with my ex fiancee,
and um, from that, I know I carried so much
shame of that relationship ending. But on today, I feel,
(42:57):
on this podcast that I got a whole old another
dose of healing. So if there's anybody out there that
is watching. If you feel like, hey, you felt guilty
or carried shame for being sexually active before marriage, or
you feel like you're not worth love, that you're not
worth a faithful spouse, a faithful partner, Honey, Yes you are,
(43:21):
and you will wait until that person comes that you desire.
You do not have to settle, You do not have
to compromise. And I'm gonna say that back for myself,
I do not have to settle and I do not
have to compromise. As Davon Franklin said, what has happened
(43:43):
in the past is in the past, you could have
been a hooker. Last night, you could have been just
recklessen cussing somebody out, and then today you make the
decision that you want to lead and live a better life.
You are absolutely entitled to that. I know. Divine said
(44:04):
he's got a book coming out called Live Free on
May fourth. I encourage you guys to get it, follow
him on all of his social media platforms and get
free and get strengthened. Um. The Bible speaks about you know,
there is no more condemnation, meaning you don't have to
(44:24):
carry any shame or guilt when you make the decision
to say, Okay, I'm gonna live this thing out for real.
I'm gonna submit my life to God. I'm gonna submit
my body to God, and I'm gonna wait. Now, that
is a hard commitment to make, but I know that
it can be done. Y'all. I love you guys so much,
and keep letting me know how this podcast is enriching
(44:48):
your life and strengthening you. Thank y'all once again for
checking in with Michelle Williams. You have been hanging out
with Michelle Williams and Divine Franklin. Checking In with Michelle
(45:37):
Williams is a production of I Heart Radio and The
Black Effect. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit
the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Checking In with Michelle Williams, a production of
My Heart Radio and The Black Effect. Hi. Everyone, it's
Michelle Williams. Today we're gonna talk about relationships, romantic relationships
(00:23):
and purpose. This may be a loaded topic for some
of you, and I know that I have some words
to share on this and I've got some questions. I
want to share a quote with you to start off
the podcast. The art of love is God at work
through you. It's really something to strive for. But why
is that so hard to keep in mind when you're
in a relationship. Romantic relationships can be some of the
(00:46):
most beautiful times in a person's life, but also the
most trying. I'm not gonna lie to listen. I can
do about eight podcasts on that. So my personal message
on today's themes of romantic relationships and do the work.
My next guest has written New York Times best selling
books on matters of the heart, and he's going to
(01:07):
share his knowledge. Coming up on Checking In with Michelle Williams, You, guys,
(01:35):
I want to introduce to you, guys somebody so special.
He's incredible and he's like a brother to me. A
force in media and entertainment, a leading authority on inspiration,
and an amazing speaker and writer on wellness and personal development.
Divine Franklin. Yes, he's an award winning film producer, New
York Times bestselling author and motivational speaker. Variety magazine named
(02:00):
him one of the top ten producers to watch, and
Oprah has called him a bona fide dynamo. Please welcome
my guests, Divine Franklin. Yo, listen, I'm just I am
your your brother. You even need to introduce me to
all that stuff. Well, you know, I wanted you gotta
respect something sometimes, you know what when people read off
the things that you've done, because you probably don't pay
(02:24):
attention to that on a daily You're walking it, you're
living it. But it does make you sit in wonder like, well,
thank you God. Yeah, Oprah does call me that, but
it matters God more what you call me. But I
(02:44):
love it. I love it. I love it. Yes, ladies
and gentlemen, Divine Franklin has been a brother. We have
not talked in a while, but it does not stop anything.
You already know the admiration that I have for you,
that the world has for you as a man of God.
And I don't know if that adds any pressure to you, um,
but it seems like you really do walk what you
(03:08):
talk about. And I know that you're gonna give us
some gems on how to do that and how to
navigate temptation, how to navigate something that you want now
but delaying it for the better later. So I'm excited
to talk to you today. I'm always excited to talk
with you. It's always good to see you. Listen, and
one of these days and maybe at some points in
(03:30):
this conversation we can chat about even I might add
some personal experience or just you know, some things that
have happened with me that she definitely attempted to coach
me on. But yeah, yeah, alright, so it's okay, yes sir, yes, sir. Now, divine,
(03:53):
everybody knows that you are a married man and a
great husband. Now I don't know that you're a great husband.
I'm not married to you, but my good sister making
good is married to you, and she just first of all,
it goes to show how the wife speaks of her husband,
(04:14):
and we need to hear the point of view of
a Christian man. But at the end of the day,
without the label of Christian. Do you feel that all
men are the same and have the same needs, Well,
in in in the day to day life, meaning no
needs are different, but in terms of you know, is
(04:34):
there a general Are there general things that men struggle
with or that men want? I do think there are
some general things, but then I think those general things
take a specific shape depending on that particular um, you
know man. Yeah, So I think that to say all
men have the exact same need maybe as too much
(04:57):
of a generalization. Okay, I believe that, you know, most
men have some you know, some consistent needs that gett
met differently. Okay, okay, because the question that the statement
was we need to hear the point of view of
a Christian man and get some really good advice on
matters of the heart. But I was just swarting, Okay,
(05:19):
the point of view of a Christian man versus just
the point of view of a man. Well all, I'm sorry, no, no,
I'm just gonna say, I mean, yes, that is probably
a little bit different, right, because if you're saying, you know,
as a man who is a follower of Christ and
committed to a life of Christ, that does lead to
some slightly different commitments than probably a man who's not walking.
(05:41):
That walker hasn't made that commitment yet. Yeah, yes, sir, Yes, sir.
In your book The Truth About Men, you reveal what
men are all about. Now. I love sitting talking to
men about men, and I don't know if everybody is
ready to really hear the men have to say about
(06:02):
relationships about women. I remember a few weeks ago my
brother had the nerve to tell my mom he didn't
like something about her hair because the textures didn't match.
The we've and her hair texture didn't match. And I
was like, oh my god, how many men walk around
(06:23):
looking at stuff like that? But I'm so glad my
brother was able to share what I The hairstyle was cute,
but he was like, yeah, the textures don't quite match.
So I'm just wondering. I am eager to learn about
things that men think, but they probably don't say a
lot of men I believe half tact and believe. Well,
(06:45):
I'm gonna say that I don't know her like that,
but I'm eager to get into the mind of a man,
and I'm excited for you to tell us. What are
some of the things we women should know that's general
and broad. But come on on in. Um. You know, look,
I'll just jump in and you know, go on direct,
(07:09):
Um what should women know? In my experience? Um, I've
been a man for forty two years now. Um. You
know one of the things that I think sometimes women
miss is that every man, and this is a generalization,
is on a mission to fulfill their their purpose. They're
calling like and it's like for most men that I know,
(07:31):
it's an obsession right like we are just here, you know.
I mean I know it is for me, like I'm like,
oh man, you know, I'm here to fulfill this mission,
complete what I'm supposed to do. Uh. And so you know,
early on in my in my you know, journey to manhood, Uh,
there was a book that I read and it said,
you know, the two most important questions that every man
(07:53):
has to ask themselves is one where are you going?
And to who are you taking with you? And and
I think that what happens with it, you know, and
again this is generalizing, but you know what happens with
women in my experience when it comes to dating is
if you don't like where that man is going, don't
hold his hand and go because what happens is a
(08:15):
woman in my experience season man. Oh, and they love
where he's going and that attracts them initially, and then
all of a sudden they get with him and they
want the man to say, wait, hey, wait, come so down,
don't go something, come back, come come over here. And
then it's like but no, no, no no, no, no, I no,
come with me. Let's go, let's go. We can do
this together. But like, you want me to slow down,
and like, but the thing that got you attracted to
(08:37):
me was me being focused and me being determined and
having a mission. And then now that I'm with you, right,
all of a sudden you want me to slow down
or turn my eye from the mission and turn it
towards you. Now I want you to I want you
to look at this for a minute. So so let's
just say, right, as a as a man, I'm going
(08:57):
towards where God would have me to. Uh. Right. So
then I get with a woman, you know, and oh,
she loves me. I love her. But let's say she's saying, no, no,
I need to I need to be your focus. So
so instead of your mission being your focus, I need
to be your focus. Now, now look at this if
I'm going like this and this is the this is
(09:18):
the destination, I'm walking towards it. I can see it.
I'm clear right now. What happens if I turned towards
my partner and I try to go there? It doesn't
work as well? Do you think women do? I don't
want to get in trouble by saying this, Lord Jesus
be you know I sang the song independent Women, but
(09:42):
I didn't sing a song about an insecure woman. Do
you think that when you're insecure you're telling the man
no focus on me, because maybe does she feel left
out if he's focused? Was like, no, he's not. He's
holding your hand while he's right. So so this is
this is this is a great, great question, and I
want to unpack it so you know the reason why
(10:02):
I brought that point about. You know, where are you going?
And do you like where this man is going? And
if you do, and you all can both both go together? Right.
So she's following her purpose and what God has called
her to do. He's following her his purpose and what
God has called him to do. And you guys are
holding hands and you're doing it together. Right. That's where
the rhythm and the harmony is and that's where the
(10:24):
power is. But when you want him to slow down,
or if he's saying, hey, I need you to slow down,
or I don't want you to do the things that
you want to do, or I don't want then that's
when you realize, wait a minute, there's something off here.
And I think one of the things that that in
my experience I want I want women to understand is
that a man committed to his purpose it has nothing
(10:46):
to do with you. Meaning like, just because he's committed
and puts a lot of time and energy and effort
into what he's called to do, it's not like, oh,
I'm I'm not putting that time into you, you know.
And I think sometimes um women make men make this
false choice of oh, you know, it's either what you
do or it's me, you know. And to me, when
I have seen most men give the woman everything they
(11:08):
want when it comes to attention and time is when
they know and believe that the woman that is in
their life is one thousand percent committed to their calling
and when they are committed to where she's going. So
in terms of insecurity, I don't think it's insecurity always
as driving that. I think you can be a very
secure woman and still want a certain level of attention
(11:30):
and still want a certain level of of of of consideration.
But I think the trap is looking at what a
man is called to do as the problem to why
you are not getting the attention you may want. If
your man is not giving you the attention you want,
don't create the reason why. Just deal with that hey
(11:53):
have need for more attention. You know, here's what I
would like, and let the man tell you, yeah, I
can do that or I can't. But when I think
this is where women, women just mess up, and I'm generalizing,
do not make what he's called to do the obstacle
to your relationship. That happens you start to lose your
(12:18):
man in the same way. If you're a man, you know,
and you are making what your woman is called to
do an obstacle to your relationship, you're gonna lose her
because she has to feel completely committed to what she's
called to do, and she has to feel supported in
that the same way a man has to feel supported. Absolutely.
I think what happens is that there's a difference in expectation.
(12:41):
You know, my next book is called Live Free it's
all about managing expectations and learning and and unspoken expectations
are a relationship killer because what happens You get into
this relationship and you think this person just because they
love you that they know they don't unless you communicate
here's my need, here's my expectation for attention. Can you
(13:02):
meet that expectation and let the person that you're with
tell you, yes, you know what, I can do that,
or you know what they look I love you, but
I can't do that. I can't do it. Like if
you expect me to be home every single night at
seven o'clock and I have certain type of career, but
I can't do that. In too often in relationships there's
these unspoken expectations, and then we get mad at somebody
(13:22):
when they don't meet what we never verbalize or ask
if they can meet, and then we want to know
why things don't work. Yeah, so again, long answer your question,
But it's not always insecurity at play. A lot of
times there's an unspoken expectation that's really underneath, uh the issue, man,
And then I want to get to the root of
why do those things go unspoken? I know for me
(13:44):
there are times I didn't speak up in a situation
because I didn't want that man to feel like I
question his leadership. So I'm not gonna say anything. I
don't want to come across as nagging. But those are
things in my uh, because I'm in my dad at
hated if my mother asked him to do something or
if she spoke something, Oh, you're just nagging, just nagging.
(14:06):
It's like, no, there is an actual leak under the sink.
She wants you to fix it. You know, we're gonna
be drowning in this house, you know. And so just
to know that it is okay to speak your expectations.
What is a turn off in how it's spoken or
what is a turn off tone? It's all about the tone.
(14:28):
It's uh, it's not necessarily the mail, but it's how
the mail is delivered. And uh, I do believe that
most men have a desire to be respected in that respect.
And I want to be clear about this. Respect me
enough to tell me the truth and also respect me
enough to treat me and talk to me in the
(14:50):
same way you would want to be talked to. So
when you talk about tone, it's about you know, what
I still got. I have to speak my truth right
like I cannot because see, there's a difference between being
supportive and being passive. And and be supportive, but don't
be passive passive because because as a woman, if you
(15:12):
make the exchange that you think you have to exchange
your voice to keep your relationship, Like that's the exchange.
If I speak up too much, he's going to to
leave or it's gonna be a problem. That's a false choice.
It's not about speaking up to me. It's about how
you do it, you know. And it's about really assessing,
all right, what really is my issue here? And let
(15:32):
me just make sure that I'm articulating it in a
way that uh, it makes good on the respect that
I have, Like I want to make sure my intent
is coming across and how I communicate. I do respect
my man and I have something I need to say.
And here's the other thing. When here's a small practical tip,
write it down. You know, you may read it to
him or you may say, hey, once I wrote it down,
I was able to get my thoughts clear. But if
(15:54):
you are not sure how to deliver the right tone,
when you write it down, it really helps you get
calm and clear on what it is you're trying to say,
but it's it's respect um and I you know Megan,
and I like, I don't. I always love her to
tell me the truth, you know, but when we've had,
you know, certain disagreements a lot of sometimes it's with tone.
I'm like, well, hey baby, wait wait a minute. Now,
(16:15):
I love wait a minute that that was a little aggressive.
I'm just a little aggressive, okay, you know. And here's
the other thing. Sometimes, you know, listen, you're you're one
of the greatest singers in the world, and you know
that great singers have the ability to hear the note
come on and make it plain, come on, come on.
(16:36):
But in relationships sometimes we're tone deaf. You can't actually
hear how you sound. So you need your partner to say, hey,
I understood what you said, but wait a minute, you
were a little pitchy in that that way, the way
you the way you get, the way you said that
was a little pitchy, you know, like like, I love
you enough to tell you that, but like I want
(16:57):
to do what you're asking me, but you know, we
gotta work on your pitch. That's so good because I've
had somebody tell me, hey, if I could replay back
how you said it, you would kind of be shocked.
And I'm like, no, you're just tripping women, especially Black women.
You know, we come with a little extra seasoning and
(17:22):
how we say things. And you know, because I'm like,
I know, I'm not the rolling of the neck and
blah blah blah. You know I don't do that. And
I don't think my tone. Listen to tell me somebody,
I don't think my tone. You know it is aggressive.
I call it passion. Yes, you can be passionate, but
(17:45):
and still respect. You think that we bring it down
a few decibls. Just listen. I don't want to feel
like I gotta sing song what I gotta say? You know, honey,
I was just thinking that. You know, I really didn't
like when you didn't call me back when you said
you would. How come I just can't say, Hey, I
really didn't like when you didn't call me back when
you said you would. I Okay, the great for this perfect.
(18:07):
So there's a book, um that's phenomenal and I highly
recommend everyone reading. Is called non violent Communication. Non violent communication,
nonviolent communication. Yes, so, so there's nothing wrong with expressing.
How do you feel the issue sometimes is expressing it
in a way that makes good on your intent. Are
(18:29):
you expressing it as a weapon against your partner or
are you expressing it as a way to produce more healing,
more communication, and more connection with your partner those two things.
Are you expressing it as a weapon so that there
are some inner hurts and some inner unmet needs that
(18:49):
that person has to yes, worked really get through. Yeah
what I mean? And I keep going back to unmet needs.
I know at the top of two nine team, you know,
my engagement ended in eighteen and at top of ninth nineteen,
I went to this retreat called Healing the Heart, and
they began breaking down the ten un thee ten emotional
(19:13):
needs that a child needs, and if they don't get
those emotional needs men in their childhood, those symptoms begin
to manifest in their adulthood. Throughout your responses, and I
was like, I wish I knew this twenty years ago,
because my responses, non verbal or however I decided to respond,
would have been much different and I wouldn't have had
(19:34):
to pay thousands of dollars in therapy. Oh you know
what I mean. Just your responses some of the root
is you didn't get affirmation, you didn't get attention, you
didn't get respect, you didn't get security, um, just affection,
you know, um growing up And so before you know what,
(19:55):
you're using maybe some of those hurts that you're not
healed from and don't even know you're not healed from them,
and you're using something like you said, as a weapon. Yes,
that's not safe, and you want to be a safe person.
You know. I've heard somebody say I can't make you
trust me, but I can create an atmosphere or the
environment for to trust me. Talk to me like you
(20:19):
got some sense, okay. And so while we're talking about
this communication and somehow those uh, those lack of communication
skills caused conflict. When it comes to conflicts and relationships,
what's worth fighting for? And when is it time to
call it quits? Okay? And when it comes to conflict
(20:40):
in relationship, what's worth fighting for? You know? I think
love is worth fighting for for sure. You know. I
think that if there is love in that relationship and
then you owe it to both of you to fight
to to keep that, I think freedom is worth fighting for. Um.
You know, a relationship should not be feel like a
(21:00):
prison sentence where you can never be free to be
who you are. You know, if anything, you know, love
in a relationship, when it's the right type of dynamics
should be the most freedom because you have somebody who's
completely committed to you in every way and and it
is supportive and loving and so, you know, the right relationship,
(21:20):
both parties should feel incredibly free. So it's worth fighting for, uh,
your freedom. I think love and freedom are are critical
that we talk about. You know, when is it time
to call it quits? Now? This is a really potentially
complex question because a lot of times in my experience
(21:41):
and I talked about this in my new book called
Live Free. When it come out, it comes out, May
for it, Yeah, I would say, available preorder right now. Yeah. So,
so in this idea of like, Okay, I'm gonna call
it quits, why do people call it quits. Okay, I'm
gonna call it quits because this person is not making
(22:01):
me happy. Let's pause. Okay. So inherent in that statement
is I now have given the authority and control of
my happiness to someone else. So how is it that
someone who even if they love me, they don't know me.
I'm knowing me and God the only one that really
(22:23):
know me. Right, But how is this person? How am
I all of a sudden telling this person it's your
job to make me happy? But wait a minute, I
don't even know what it takes to make myself happy,
and I want you to figure out what makes me happy.
This one of the things where most couples miss it
because when you outsource your happiness to another individual, you're
(22:44):
never gonna be happy. So the first thing is making
sure that you are the keeper of your happiness. You
are the one that is responsible for your happiness. Now
here's here's the concept. The concept is that when people say, oh,
you don't make me happy. Can you imagine if the
person you were within your relationship said you don't make
(23:05):
me money. I'm leaving you because you don't make me
no money. People look at them, crazy, what you're talking about.
That's not the responsibility to make you money. But do
you see how crazy that sounds? Yes, it sounds equally
as crazy when you say you don't make me happy.
Because it's not someone else's job to make money for you.
(23:28):
You are supposed to support yourself, go out there and
make your own money, and then you bring that money
to the relationship, or you bring that money to the marriage,
and then both parties have more because both are doing
what they need to do to provide for the union.
Happiness is the same way. So you gotta do what
makes you happy and find out, Okay, well what really
(23:48):
makes me happy? Let me practice those things that create
happiness and me so I can bring happiness to the relationship.
So it's not when you are not happy that is
not always a sign to run, because here's what happens.
When we get into resistance in a relationship. Our first
response is usually flight. This person is not making me happy.
(24:10):
You know, I don't like how I feel. I'm out
what happens? It's so easy to run and guess what,
you take yourself with you wherever you go. My lord,
the only consistent see between you or myself and anyone
who's dating different people is is you Yeah's it? And
so if you don't, I encourage anyone listening to this
(24:33):
right now, if you're in a difficult relationship, look at
it as a mirror for the work that you need
to do. And I'm talking about something that's not abusive, emotionally, orfically,
So we're not talking about abusive. You're an abusive situation,
get out now, please. But if you're in a situation
where you're like, I don't know, before you call it quits,
(24:55):
ask the question, what is the work that I need
to do on myself? Why? How is this relationship a
mirror to the work that I need to do? Because
if I take on the challenge and do the work,
and then it's like, hey, you know what I can
from a good place, not a negative place. From a
good place, I can say this isn't the right fit.
But I'm so glad I had this opportunity because I
(25:16):
would have never done this work on myself. You know,
we're just not going in the same direction. We're not
like committed to the same things, we don't have the
same values. But if I had never had the resistance,
I would have never gone deeper in my lord. I
would have never done gone deeper into my own development.
So I think before anyone calls it quits, they got
to ask the question, what is the work I gotta do?
(25:38):
You know? And am I blaming someone for something that's
my responsibility? And if the answer is yes, take your responsibility,
do the thing that you need to do, or you
get out of that relationship. This is perfect because you know,
there are a lot of people that can say divine.
I didn't see this model for me growing up. So
(25:59):
I'm so glad at that you guys are listening to
this podcast. By every single book that Devon Franklin has,
follow him on Instagram, wherever you can go, because some
people don't even know what questions to ask. There are
men right now fighting for their marriages and relationships, women
(26:21):
fighting for marriages and for the relationships, and I don't
even think they know the questions to ask. They just
know that there is conflict. They've never seen conflict resolution
in their household, you know, and it's like, how can
you do and be what you never saw? I agree,
I understand that sentiment. It's one of those sentiments though
(26:42):
that I caution anyone to use as an excuse of
course never becoming right, because like, you know, my father
died when I was nine years old. He died of
a heart attack when he was thirty six. Um, you know,
my mother, you know, single mother raised me and my
older brother, my younger brother by herself, obviously with some
help from the family, but you know, we were a
welfare at times, and you know, lived in my with
(27:05):
with my grandparents and all of that. So I can't
tell you that I had a model for a successful
marriage or you know, a life in Hollywood or any
of that. But even without the model, I still was like,
that doesn't me it can be created. So, like you
know what, I'm not gonna let what I didn't see
in my life become an excuse to never become who
(27:26):
I know I believe I can be and who God
is calling me to be. And so even if you've
never had that example, you can still use your mind
and your imagination and use that say oh, what's the
picture you see? Oh I want that? And follow that.
That's powerful. Don't allow what you see in your environment
to be an excuse to not to go over what
you see in your mind. That is so powerful the mind,
(27:48):
and if you focus on that, it can transform and
before you know it, you are just you're literally walking
what you've imagined what you have seen in your mind. Now,
as a teenager, let's talk about the mind and what
you saw. You and Megan authored the book called The Weight,
(28:10):
and it was essentially about celibacy. Now, did you see
yourself at eighteen being celibate. Well, that's a great question.
Did I see myself? You know, it was weird because
I mean I was raising the church, you know, and
you know, I was like, oh, so celibacy was something
that was talked about. But as I mentioned in the book,
(28:32):
and they've talked about before, you know that no one
really talked about how to do it. It was just that, hey,
you know what, you're going to hell right there it is,
and having second before marriage is wrong. That's all we
ever heard. So I had that awareness. So at eighteen
years old, by that point in time, I had already
lost my virginity and had a really it was in
a relationship and me and you know were That was
(28:53):
my senior year, and so I was still a late bloom.
I didn't lose my virginity to tell, my senior year
of high school because so much of this commitment to
be celibate with like a big part of my upbring.
When I was not celibate, you know, it was always
a struggle because I was like, oh, man, you know,
is this what guy wants for me? That not? So
at eighteen years old, it wasn't that I didn't see
(29:13):
myself as celibate. I just wasn't. It wasn't um and
I wasn't at that time. I wasn't exactly sure if
and when I was going to pick back up that commitment.
And I didn't pick back up the commitment until like, Okay,
what do you tell the person that's like, Yo, I've
been out here reckless while and out I've been done
(29:35):
too much to talk about being celibate? How do you
encourage them? Because it's like, if you're having that thought,
a part of me wonders, I think you are you
wanting to be celibate? Do you want to know what
it's like? Maybe you get some healing on that journey.
It's it's kind of like that person that says, I
gotta wait to clean myself up before I go to church,
right right? Um? So I would say a couple of things,
(29:57):
But the first thing that comes to mind is, uh,
to that person that was then this is now make
that your monstra because what happens is that we use
what happened in the past as an excuse to disqualify
us for the future. You know what, Yeah, that may
have been. Then last night you may have you know,
had the best sex of your life. But today you're decided,
you know what I got, I can't do that anymore.
(30:19):
So that was then, this is now. Do not think
that your past this qualifies you for anything in your future.
It doesn't unless you allow it to do that. So
someone is really wondering, well, I've you know, been doing
this and what difference does it make? And I can
never be No, that was then, this is now. There's
the other thing in my experience, the the number one
thing that would cause someone to consider celibacy is pain.
(30:43):
That's good when you have endured consistent emotional pain because
of your sexual choices. And you know, that's the only
thing in my experience the main driver practically virtually, you know,
a commitment to God certainly can get you there, but practically,
(31:04):
if you're not even thinking about God, are you just like, hey,
I want to get it. When you've endured enough pain,
you will be forced to think about another way. And
I'm not saying that everybody who has sex side of
marriage experiences that pain. There's certain people who walk the
cell of the life those who don't and judge unless
you be judged. So I don't you know, passing judgment
(31:24):
on anybody everybody has to walk their journey in this
life according to how they have to ultimately answer to
God no matter what. So I don't judge anybody, but
in terms of what would compel someone to want to
be celibate, right, and my experience, it's when you have
given your heart, your body, and your mind to someone
and then you realize that they didn't want everything you
(31:45):
gave them, they only want what you could give them physically.
That reality can be so demoralizing that you say, there's
got to be a better way. When we wrote The Way,
you know, we had no idea it would go all
around the world. And you know, so many people have
read that book and they talk about how healing it
has been for them because of so much of the
(32:06):
pain they've endured, you know, through a wide variety of
sexual choices. And so, you know, I think when I
talk about the Way, you know, I want to be clear,
like the walk of celibacy to me is not there's
nothing wrong with sex. Sex is great. God made it,
It's all good, you know. It's just sex is incredibly powerful,
and I think growing up we aren't really taught how
to harness and use the power of sex at all.
(32:28):
You know, either we're talked to avoid it or embrace it,
but not like, hey, here's how you navigate your sexuality
in a way that's healthy. And so I do think that,
you know, as someone's trying to navigate this, I think
the main question is, Okay, is this helping me or
hurting me? You know? Is this is this healing me?
Or is this inflicting more pain? And here's the other thing,
(32:50):
you know, I'm saying, like, I'm just gonna be honest,
if if I was single like that, here's the crazy
thing in my experience, you know, talking to you know
a lot of men and women that are dating. I
asked somebody say, hey, so you just you'reen dating to
due for a month, or you've been dating a girl
for a month, would you give him your phone and
give them the code. They'd be like, no, I'm gonna
getting that only a month. But you've already give them
your body. I'm like, I'm like, wait a minute, So
(33:12):
what's in the phone is more valuable than what's in
your heart, what's in your body? M come on now, listen.
You may choose that that's what you want to do,
but I'm saying, please, choose it from a place of trust.
If you don't trust them with your phone, don't trust
(33:35):
but think about it. Needs to shirt. I don't trust
you with my phone, so I don't trust you with
my body. No, until until I feel completely comfortable given
you my phone and my code. I am not giving
you any body. Well, listen, there was a question talking
about some how long are we supposed to wait before
having sex in a relationship? Can't already don't the answer?
(34:00):
But now it's ba baby, until I can trust you
with my phone and even then, you know, there are
a lot of people like I'm not God, don't get
into no folks business. But it's like sometimes too, I
don't care if we're married, you're still not getting the
code to my phone. I might have a surprise for
you that I'm working on and I don't want you
(34:21):
to get. Yeah, okay, right, um, you know look my
belief I listen. I'm a corrn believer, as you know,
you know, wait until marriage. However, nobody doesn't make that choice.
I always recommend please let sex come out of love
and trust and you know and care. Yeah, you know, uh,
you know, please, I mean that's that's why it was
(34:43):
created and you know, look, if someone chooses not to wait,
that's between them and God and the person they choose
to do it with. UM. But I think that when
there's so much just it's so casual, you know, it's
just it's literally like being on the road and you're
driving and you're not following no speed limit, you just
drive however you want to drive. You're gonna hit something.
It is literally, it's it's it's reckless. And I know
(35:04):
we've unpacked so much UM in the amount ofments that
we have, and I know I could talk to you
for forty more minutes, but that's not what we can
do today. But I loved how the weight definitely centers
on celibacy, right, but your talk about mastering delaying gratification
because that can help you in the areas of finance,
(35:24):
family relationships, your goals, and careers. So can we just
unpack that a little bit? That celibacy. Yes, of course
we know it celibacy as abstaining you know, from sex.
But how did you use that or did it just
come automatically where you discovered Wait a minute, I'm thinking
clearer on every area of my life, right, So I'm
(35:44):
gonna tell it to this concept from my new book
to answer this question. So live free me. When I
live free, it means I'm not under the control or
authority mentally, physically, or emotionally of anyone anything. So when
we talk about delayed gratification, what happens is we live
(36:05):
in a in a in a time where everybody wants
things instantly, uh, Instagram and microwave this, and think about, right,
if our WiFi is off for ten seconds, if we
go to a website and it doesn't load in five seconds,
we're like, what's wrong with HiFi? What's wrong my phone?
You know? So what happens when we bring that attitude
(36:26):
and that in patience into our life, we don't live free.
We're completely a prisoner of whatever is happening in the moment.
And when we talk about delayed gratification, what we say
is I'm gonna be patient, right, because good things come
to those who wait. Matter fact, great things come to
those who wait, you know. And I know so many
people from around the world come to you and say, oh,
(36:47):
you know, I want to be a singer and all this.
You know, think about how much time you had to
wait and be patient and not just go for the
first opportunity, but wait for the right opportunity. And so
what you're doing, that's right, that's right, that's right. So
we talk about waiting and delay gratification. It's way bigger
than sex. If you can, if you can master delay gratification,
(37:10):
you can set your whole life up for the best
success ever. Because when you are patient and you said,
you know what, I'm not gonna get there immediately, but
I will get there eventually. It allows you to live
free in the moment because you're not in anxiety, you're
not in frustration, you're not in worry, you're not in doubt,
you're in trust, you're in faith. So when you're even
(37:31):
in your career, you're like, you know what, I know
who I am, I know my skills, and I might
be in a job that I don't like, but it's
all right. I may not be where I want to be,
but I know where I'm gonna be. That's what le
gratification does. It means I don't have to be gratified
right now. I'm gonna get it down pain. I'm gonn actually,
matter fact, I'm gonna doing advance on the gratification I
want I'm gonna take an advance on that and get
(37:52):
it now. I'm gonna be happy in this moment, because
here's a reality. If I'm not happy now, I won't
be happy then whatever the then is for you or
me if I don't practice that happiness now and so
delayed gratification allows me to practice being content, happy and
peaceful in the moment without having whatever it is I'm
aspiring for. I promise if anybody listening to this gets this,
(38:16):
your life will completely change because you go from being
controlled by to being in control, controlled by your thoughts,
controlled by your desires, controlled by you know, other people's
expectations of you. When you live free and you practice
that delayed gratification, now you get your control back, You
(38:36):
get your power. I'm not going to let what I
don't have make me feel less than I feel more
than right now. And whenever I get what it is
I want it will I will only have been practicing
what I wanted to feel when I get it, so
the object of getting it doesn't make me feel any
other way than I always was feeling. This is, in
(38:56):
a nutshell, the power of delayed gratification. Listen, I've seen
divine minister in Bible study at a sin in l A.
And I literally feel like I'm been a cry. I
feel the Holy Spirit. This is supposed to be a podcast,
(39:17):
but I'm like, wait a minute, now, whole spirit now waiting.
They're not supposed to know, but I do feel that,
and I feel that. I feel like waiting also says
that you trust God. And um, there's a walk um
all about you. There's a glow about a person, and
I definitely see that in you and Megan. And how
(39:40):
have y'all been coping with each other in this pandemic? Yeah,
you know, listen to pandemic has been good in always right,
like you know, we've been coping by you know, a
lot of conversations and because we've been um apart, you
know so much. And so this past year is as
her cooking that she's she's a cooking, started cooking. I
(40:04):
started baking, you know, Um, you know, so we had
we've been that far. Has been great. But also, like
every couple, I think the pandemic has really been, um
an incredible mirror because a lot of times as couples,
when you're busy, you run past the mirror. My only
mirror has been these cream cheese brownie. I don't got
(40:26):
nobody to mirror with. That's all right, and moderation as
long as it's in moderation. I mean, it's been good.
I mean I can't, I cannot. Life has been good
and we've gotten a lot out of it. Uh, you know, personally, emotionally, spiritually,
and collectively. Listen, that is so good. Well, I just
(40:46):
thank you so much for sharing on this podcast today.
You always are informative, you uplift, you are practical and fun,
and just thank you y'all. One of my favorite quotes
by Divine. I feel like I'm supposed to put a
tag on there, Dr devinnister divine something. I just feel
(41:08):
like I ain't supposed to be calling you just divine
one of the things that you've said, and I want
to share this with you. Guys. You say anything you
pray for, you need to prepare for. And that's what
I'm also feeling again, UM for this podcast, waiting, not
complicating relationships, learning how to communicate, get in control of
(41:33):
our responses, and just saying things in love, monitoring our tones,
you know, don't be pitchy um in your communication UM
with each other, because when you love somebody, I pray
that it comes out in how you treat them at
what you say, Devine, thank you so much. Is there
one last thing you want to leave us and then
(41:54):
we can sign off? Yeah? You know, like, uh, this
life is short, so you got to really enjoy it,
you know. I just hope anyone listening right now just
really finds their peace, find what makes them, you know,
tick and happy, and and fight for that it's worth
or you are worth fighting for, and never compromise that. Yeah,
(42:15):
that is so good. Divine, Thank you so much, Thank you,
thank you. Listen to you guys. You know, almost after
every podcast, I think the reason why I cried tears
of joys because I am just constantly making sure that
(42:37):
I'm intentional about being in a state of gratitude. But
I don't know if a lot of you guys know
Divine Franklin and Megan Good they were on an episode
of a reality show that I had with my ex fiancee,
and um, from that, I know I carried so much
shame of that relationship ending. But on today, I feel,
(42:57):
on this podcast that I got a whole old another
dose of healing. So if there's anybody out there that
is watching. If you feel like, hey, you felt guilty
or carried shame for being sexually active before marriage, or
you feel like you're not worth love, that you're not
worth a faithful spouse, a faithful partner, Honey, Yes you are,
(43:21):
and you will wait until that person comes that you desire.
You do not have to settle, You do not have
to compromise. And I'm gonna say that back for myself,
I do not have to settle and I do not
have to compromise. As Davon Franklin said, what has happened
(43:43):
in the past is in the past, you could have
been a hooker. Last night, you could have been just
recklessen cussing somebody out, and then today you make the
decision that you want to lead and live a better life.
You are absolutely entitled to that. I know. Divine said
(44:04):
he's got a book coming out called Live Free on
May fourth. I encourage you guys to get it, follow
him on all of his social media platforms and get
free and get strengthened. Um. The Bible speaks about you know,
there is no more condemnation, meaning you don't have to
(44:24):
carry any shame or guilt when you make the decision
to say, Okay, I'm gonna live this thing out for real.
I'm gonna submit my life to God. I'm gonna submit
my body to God, and I'm gonna wait. Now, that
is a hard commitment to make, but I know that
it can be done. Y'all. I love you guys so much,
and keep letting me know how this podcast is enriching
(44:48):
your life and strengthening you. Thank y'all once again for
checking in with Michelle Williams. You have been hanging out
with Michelle Williams and Divine Franklin. Checking In with Michelle
(45:37):
Williams is a production of I Heart Radio and The
Black Effect. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit
the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows.
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