March 14, 2023 • 41 mins
Michelle and Dr. Kojo are already winning! Dr. Kojo talks about being diagnosed with ADHD at 25. He also shares his experience knowing he was different growing up, but not getting a diagnosis sooner because of the stigma surrounding mental health challenges. CHECK IN to this episode to be reminded that a diagnosis doesn’t define you.
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The Black Effect Podcast Network will be making history again with the first Black Effect Podcast Festival taking place on April 22nd in Atlanta. Checking in With Michelle Williams will be hitting the live podcast stage with 85 South Show, WHOREible Decisions, Big Facts, Reasonably Shady, and many more. Make sure to grab your tickets today at BlackEffect.com
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Checking In with Michelle Williams, a production of
My Heart Radio and The Black Effect. There are tons
of people using social media to give hope, to inspire,
(00:24):
to be fun, and my next guest is doing just that.
He is going to be checking in with us. He's
got so much to share. I'm so glad that he's here.
So will y'all stay tuned? All right, let's see. Hey, everybody,
(00:48):
welcome to another fire episode of Checking In. It is
a joy that you guys continue to check in week
after week. Your download my episodes, and we could not
be in this amazing season three of Checking In if
not for you. And the reason why also we are
(01:09):
able to be in another season is because of guests
like I am about to talk to Rhett Now. Our
et Rhett Now. He hails from Los Angeles, California. He
lives in Los Angeles, and he's awesome. He's a social
media content creator, mental health nurse, practitioner, author. He's also
(01:33):
a fellow podcaster and psychotherapist with over three million followers
on all of his social media channels. Y'all listen, Please
welcome doctor Kojoe Sorfo to Checking In. Now. You're having me.
I appreciate this. I love the energy. Listen. We need it.
(01:57):
I know where I am in Atlanta. It is raining,
it's cloudy, but you are lighting up our lives right
now with your amazing content and your openness about your
own journey. But at the same time, you're literally changing
lives one TikTok after another. Thank you everybody. I appreciate
(02:17):
that you use social media to reach so many people.
But before social media, give us your background and how
you became first a mental health nurse practitioner and then
now psychotherapist. Give us that journey, right. So I guess
we have to go back to high school. And I
(02:38):
wasn't the best high school student. And I remember my
dad had a conversation with me in the car and
he was like, what do you want to do with
your life? And I was like, ah, I think I
want to wrap and he was like, no, what do
you want to do with your life? And I was like, oh,
he suggests something, and he said, oh, if you go
get it to year nursing degree, I'll stop, you know,
bugging you and you can do your thing. So I
did that. I went to nursing. After my nursing degree,
(03:01):
I got two degrees, so I got a bachelor's degree
second after the associate's degree. And after that, I learned
about the DNP program where school to get a doctorate
and specialized in psychiatry and mental health. Um, and that's
why I did uh and um. You know, by doing that,
I became a psychotherapist as well. And I was working
in Virginia, in southern Virginia doing friendic psychiatry and I
(03:25):
was posting, you know, content on TikTok, and over time
that kind of took off and it gave me the
ability to you know, go public and do it, you know,
as a career. But before that, I was even promoting
mental health awareness through a clothing company, and that clothing
company was called Brontie and Senora, which stood for Gentlemen
(03:46):
and Lady. That was very helpful for me because we
got the chance to go to Washington, c to go
to a Mental Health America conference where I believe we
saw you talk and in twenty seventeen. Yeah, so it's
like a full circle moment for me. I remember that.
That is amazing. The topic of mental health can be
(04:07):
swept under the rug in the black community. Not only
the black community, the subculture's period, you know. So I
just just know, like, and I get messages and dams
from black people outside of America, Jamaica, Africa that are like,
(04:30):
we don't talk about that over here, Thank you so much.
So now I can tune in to hear what you're
talking about. How has that been for you personally? It
feels really good, you know whatever. I mean, anythingbody had podcast,
you know, interview, or I get a chance to talk
to somebody, it feels it feels great that somebody want to,
(04:50):
you know, talk to me and take time out of
there day to hear my thoughts. But when it's someone
like you who's accomplished and also you know, black, it
means a little bit more because we don't talk about
these things in our community a lot. And sometimes I'll
sit here and I'll you know, be on the Today's
Show or whatever, but I'll be waiting for you know,
black entertainers like you to talk about these things because
(05:13):
a lot of times, as our community, we don't, you know,
we'll talk about it, but we'll use a different word.
So instead of saying depression, you know, you might you know,
say I've been feeling low for a little bit like
we don't want to just come out and say it.
But in order to fix the problems, sometimes you have
to say it and acknowledge it and go through the
pain of accepting that this is going on, and then
you can get to the recovery process. But a lot
(05:34):
of times there's a community, I feel like we hold
ourselves back. We don't want to actually talk about the truth,
you know, and if there's somebody in our family who's
struggling with mental illness, a lot of times, you know,
you'll just kind of put that person to the side,
or you know, try not to talk about it in
public because you know that person might bring shame to
the family. So I think it's it's going to be
a game changer to this talk talk about these things openly,
(05:55):
and it's going to help us as a community. How
has it been like in your own face family, It's
been adventure. In my own family. I talked about having
eighty online a lot, And I remember when I was
in grad school working on this doctorate to help people out.
My mom she took my car somewhere and she opened
(06:16):
up the compartment in the middle and she found like
a bottle of adderall and she googled it, you know,
to see what mixed and feemy sauts were. And then
she was bugging out because she's like, are you taking
drugs or what's going on? Or like like are you
like And I'm like, Mom, I just can't focus and
I went to a doctor and I can focus. I
was trying to lay it out to her, but she
was freaking out because a lot of times, as a parent,
(06:38):
if your child is taking medication, and I'm not I
don't have any kids yet, but I would assume that
you would take your child's mental staze and you might
let that be a reflection if you as a parent,
you know. So that's why I was thinking, that's where
my mom was going through. So, I mean, as I
talked about it more now my family, they're opening up
(06:59):
to the idea of therap And the first time I
told my sister I went to a therapist during the pandemic,
she was like, are you okay or you know, And
I've gone through a breakup too, so she was like,
well it the girl. I'm like, no, it's just it's
something I should have done a long time ago, but
it's only now that I have the resources to do it.
So now I'm gonna open myself up to you know,
to doing that. But I think as I've been speaking
(07:20):
about it more, I've been seeing my family members come
out and say, Okay, maybe I'll try therapy. Or I
think I've been a little bit anxious, or I'm struggling
to drive on the highway because I feel like the
walls are closing in on me. So I think we
all go through it. But somebody has to step up,
and you know, because a lot of times we wait
for people to like, you know, say that they're going
through something as well before we acknowledge it because you
(07:41):
might be embarrassed or shame. So somebody has to go
out there and just kind of put the feet of
water and kind of test out the waters and see
what it's like. You were about to go into. How
you sharing your own story of how you discovered that
you had ADHD right as a practitioner, Did you know
(08:03):
you always had it? Or tell us first of all,
what is ADHD? Right? So ADHD is a brain based condition.
You know, more than likely you're born with it, and
it's a closer symptoms. You know, you can have somebody
who's struggling to pay attention. Somebody who's just organized. You
can have somebody who's impulsive, overly talkative, people who have
(08:24):
a hard time starting something and finishing it all the
way through. And a lot of times women have to
go years, sometimes decades without being diagnosed because they may
present as being you know, a bit more quiet and shy,
but they're soundly struggling and it is organized. They can't
you know, organize their thoughts, keep things together. So there's
a closer symptoms that affects a lot of people, and
it doesn't really go away in adulthood. But people think
(08:47):
that's like a little boys, you know, disease and you'll
grow out of it, or sometimes in our community you
feel like you can spank a kid out of it,
you know, but it's it's a real condition and it
is genetic more unlikely you got from your parents who
have probably had it their whole lives, but they never
knew what was going on, so they just thought that
that's how they were. You're so right, spank it out
(09:10):
of them, or can you imagine telling a child you
just need to sit and focus More's there's something going
on to why I can't well stop watching TV so much?
Make sure you sit in a silent place. I don't know,
if you know. The more I sit in a silent place,
the more my mind and thoughts get to rambling and
(09:31):
so wow. I think sometimes this diagnosis can go dismissed
because of the fact that people say why. I think
all adults have a little bit of ADHD, especially if
you've got kids running around, a dog running around, husband
or wife. First you're doing so your mind is so
it's like, what did it feel like growing up or
(09:54):
as an adult? I believe you got your diagnosis as
an adult? Correct? Yeah, yeah, what was going on? So?
For me? I knew I had it in second grade,
you know, honestly, Look, I would see I would tell
my mom that I would girl at school, you know,
grew up in National, Tennessee. I would see the white kids.
They would like leave like halfway through the day and
(10:15):
they'll go to the nurse's office and they'll take medication
and they come back and they would get their work done.
And I would tell my mom, oh, like those kids,
like I think they're taking some type of medication or
something like that. I'm like, hey, get checked out. And
my mom was like, no, like we'll pray for you.
You don't need that. None of my kids have anything
like that. So um I believe that. So I use
that to you know, I willed myself to becoming a
(10:37):
good student, but I always felt like my whole life
I had to try. Spots is hard to get like
maybe half as done as the average person. And the
seventh grade I was watching a baseball game and there
was a player for the Braves who there was a
routine ball that was hit to him. He got he
got the ball and he jogged over to first base
(10:59):
and then he out there after the runner got there,
so it was an error. And this is a naturally
televised game, and I'm like, what's going on? And the
Braves lost that game. And then after that game, the
first basement, his name is Adam Laroche. He came out
and said that he has add or ADHD and he struggled.
That was his whole whole life, and he lapsed like
he had a lapse like on national TV in the
(11:20):
middle of the game. And then that was seventh grade
for me. And at that point in time, I knew
that that's what I had because I felt like that
happened to me during class where like I'm taking the test,
but then I zone out and before you know, you
see kids starting to like turn the papers and I'm
still the working on my assignment. But I didn't bring
it up to my parents because we didn't have insurance
(11:40):
and they're just trying to, you know, keep the lights on.
So I told myself, if had like cancer or whatever, okay,
we can go to the doctor. But if you can't focus,
that's not a real reason to try and go to
the doctor. Like you just have to tough it out,
write it out, you know. And that's that was my
mentality until I was twenty five and I got assessed. Wow,
first of all, I'm so sorry that you had to
(12:03):
carry that weight like man blood and gushion out and
I don't have liquids coming out of all the crevices,
you know what I'm saying. You felt like this wasn't
a big enough issue to take to your parents, And
then I think parents, now there's so much out there
and talked about as far as mental health is concerned,
(12:24):
that prayerfully more parents will take their children seriously if
their child feels like something is going on. Two for
parents to get more interactive, because some of our parents
feel like as a teenager, oh this is just a
growing phase. My kids are just hyper or if they're isolated.
They mistake a child's isolation for he or she is
(12:47):
just being a teenager. They don't want to be around
us old people anymore. Versus no, they might be isolated
because there is depression, the hyperactivity is all much else
just hyper. I'm gonna just put them in gymnastics to
get all their energy out right, you know what I mean?
So hopefully now with people like you out there sharing
(13:12):
daily with the millions of followers that you have, I know,
for effect weekly, there are parents that are like, I'm
gonna get my children assessed because of doctor Kulcho. I
think so, and even looking at some of the dams
that I get. Sometimes nothing you have to scare people,
you know, I try to, like, you know, scare folks
for information because on the Internet, based off of how
(13:33):
you present a video and it goes viral, you know,
people might think, oh wow, like I'm not gonna get this,
or like does this happen to me? But when you
put out the evidence that ADHD does increase the likeliod depression,
you know, by at least three times, and it also
increases your risk for suicide, ideation and things like that.
Then when parents sees that, they're like, okay, all right,
maybe I shouldn't take this thing lightly. Let me be
(13:54):
proactive and you know, help out a child, and the
help that you get when you're in fourth grade, seventh grade,
tenth grade, it's going to help you out as an
adult because you're building up your self esteem, you know.
But some issues that we don't fix while we're kids,
they kind of follow us as adults, and you don't
realize until maybe you get into a relationship and it's
coming out, or maybe when something bad happens or you're
(14:17):
grieving and you're feeling all out of sources. So the
work that you do as a child, or what your
parents do for you as a child, it doesn't matter
a lot. Called Joe put a pinion that you just
said some amazing things in there. Oh, this stuff can
can come up in relationships. I know that I personally
(14:37):
experienced certain things that were not healed or assessed from
childhood did come up in adulthood. So you are right
about that. You said a few minutes ago, you mentioned
the word evidence, right, and I was like speaking of
the word evidence. Prior to your social media activity and
(15:01):
even being a mental health practitioner, you were in forensic
PSYCHIATRYT that's correct, talk about that transition because that you know,
in school, that was my major criminal justice to go
into psychology. Yes, wow, yes, yes, yeah. It was a
great experience for me and it shaped me a lot
(15:21):
as an individual, and it kind of even led to
me going on social media because when I first started
that job in Virginia, it was very intense, Like I
would have patients who had committed murders. Some of them
had maybe murdered their parents or the murdered the other
people or burned buildings down, and these are pretty severe crimes,
you know, like if I were to give details of
(15:41):
certain crimes, you could google it, so I can't even
talk about certain things. But it was real, Like I
don't even watch scary movies or scary shows because like
I actually lived at where I would have patients come
in my office and I was on a daily basis
talk to people who had murdered people and done all
kinds of through some things. So it made me appreciate
(16:02):
people on a different level because when you think of
somebody who has taken away somebody's life. You know, you
wouldn't expect to show that person any empathy. But then
you know, I'm looking at the person, I'm like, Okay,
this is a person who just made a mistake, you know,
but maybe if it was my family member or if
it was my niece, that they did something too when
I feel the same way. So on a moral level,
(16:24):
I had to grapple with a lot of different questions.
But because it was such a heavy type of thing,
you know, I needed the outlet, which was social media,
which I could go and make, you know, the videos
and make it funny or whatever, and I didn't have
to think about that. But it was very helpful to
work in that environment because I learned so much from
those patients, Like they would teach me life lessons, and
(16:45):
some of them, when they got stable on their men's
they will come out and say, I did this, it
was a mistake. I should never done this. I deal
with this, you know, guilt every day, and I think
it's helped me out a lot, just as a man.
Just hearing some of those stories, wow, wow, culture, that
is pretty powerful, you know, because I do watch the
(17:06):
stories about true crime and how people go in and
talk to people who have done some of the most
gruesome crimes, and then you do kind of find yourself
at least I do like feeling sorry for them. But
then it also still two can be right. You can
feel sorry for that person, especially when they've expressed so
much remorse. Then the other thing is right too. Someone
(17:28):
else is suffering because of that unmet need that you
had as a child, and then it manifested as an adult,
and you took someone's life as a result of things
going unmet for them as a child. Childhood is so
so crucial. How we were shaped as children play such
(17:48):
a huge role in how we are as adults. What
do you see as having a mental health impact on people,
good and bad? As an influence, But at the same time,
you are a professional, so you're more than just an
influence that you actually got some credentials to possibly diagnose
and treat people. What are you seeing on to social
media that's having an impact on people, first of all
(18:11):
in a bad way. Honestly, it's you know, in this
post pandemic world, I don't think any of us chose to,
you know, like when COVID happened, we were forced to
be by ourselves. But what I'm seeing now is that
there's not a lot of community just in real life.
Like we're lonelier than ever, and like just looking through DMS,
(18:32):
I feel like I have a court sided seat at
looking at human suffering. Like I'll just go through DMS
at night, and there's some people who they would love
to just get out of bed and take their dog
on a walk. That would make them feel like they
want the super Bowl. There's some people who would just
like to have a friend come over. And you know,
even when I'm on a live stream and I'll say
things like all right, you just need one friend, so
(18:53):
many people in the comments will say I don't have
one friend. I don't like people were not we don't
have that community, you know, And I think we're lonely
than ever. And of course, you know, when it comes
to relationships people, you know, there's this whole thing of
oh single about us on relationship, But just in terms
of friendships, I think that that's a big part of life,
(19:13):
having connections, you know, and being lonely or isolating yourself.
It's not good for your mental health, it's not good
for your physical health. You know like things like that
can even worsen your cardio vascular health. You could be
a higher transfer things like heart attacks and strokes just
for not having a sense of community around you. So
it's a human need. But we're doing so much social media,
(19:34):
so much tele medicine, we're not really getting together in
real life and meet with people. But I do like
the Internet, and if you can make friends through that way,
I would say that's a good start. But I don't
think we're as connected as we used to be even
ten years ago. And that's some concerning Now, what about
from somebody like me. I like my solitude? Am I
(19:56):
at risk for cardio vascular I like being home? I
really really do. And I'm the same way actually, And
I mean I'll go out to events and things like that,
but when I can, I enjoy being my own space.
So I get to think I can cut on a movie,
I can laugh with my dog. It doesn't take much
to make me happy. But I think with you like knowing,
(20:18):
Let's say you need something right like you need to
vent to somebody. If you're able to call at least
one person, and then you can talk to that person,
and that's somebody who is also able to reciprocate with
you and tell you what you know they're going through
that that's good enough, that's so good. Okay, okay, you
are right. I definitely believe and I am, like you know,
(20:40):
going to events every now and then or walking around
the community. You know, I have a dog now and
so it makes me have to take him out and walk.
And then you meet other people along the way. They
have other furry monsters. And I saw a video of
you where you were it was acting you were laying
in the bed, but you were also being the person saying, hey,
you got to get out of bed today, and you're like, okay,
(21:02):
well I understand. I'll wash the dishes for you and
I'll come back and check on you tomorrow. That is
pretty crucial for someone who is, you know, going through
depression is to prayerfully. Everybody has one person. Also another
point on that, like with you being a public figure,
you know, it's like the average person can maybe just
(21:24):
go to Walmart and just stroll around. You may not
be able to do that as much. So that does
change your life. And I think that, you know, when
you look at people who've been in limelight for many years,
you know, like I'm here in La so I just watch.
I don't know, I'll ask myself like is this enjoyable,
you know or like or is it sustainable? You know,
like over abundance of attention like big awards, Grammy Oscar,
(21:48):
the great things. But then to go from that to
you know, you draw back a little bit, but people
still know you. It's different because people treat you differently, um,
but you're still you. So I think that you see
where child starts a lot, where they have all this
attention and then they become adults and they're trying their
best just to keep their head above water. But people
don't see them the same. You know, they see themselves
(22:10):
the same, but it lends themselves to more isolation. So
I've been thinking a lot about that as a lake. Okay,
has that been happening to you? Are you able to
Are you able to go out? Yeah? Yeah, I go out,
I do everything. But in some way it's kind of
you know, changing a bit. You know, I've been followed
(22:31):
home before. I had three electric bikes stolen in La
so like I moved because of that. So, yeah, you
can't be too predictable here. It's still you know, things
can happen, so it's interesting. I went to one event
and I saw Spider Man Toby McGuire, and you know,
we're all there having fun asking for pictures, and I
(22:52):
washed him, you know, because as a psychotherapist, I just
kind of washed people, you know, off in the corner.
And after about five minutes his demeanor went, I'm like
happy like us to like his social barity was done.
And I thought to myself, he's been a Spider Man
for what ten fifteen, almost twenty years, Like, imagine having
to go through that every single day. I'm like, how
(23:13):
does a person like that protect their mental health? Is
just something that I think about. M Well, thank you
for thinking and having that concern. You know, I can
imagine you don't want to hurt people's feelings by denying
them the picture, but there is a part of you
that does shut off, and either you just go through
(23:33):
the motions or you politely tell people give me a minute,
I'll be right back, or some people don't have the
grace and they snap on the person. So yeah, I
can definitely definitely understand that. When we were talking about
social media before You Loved It, we were talking about
this whole filter thing. How a person can go on
(23:57):
social media and you can go on their bare faced,
but social media will make you look one thousand times
quote unquote better, right, And we were talking about that
before you lock down. What were your thoughts on that.
It's interesting because I think when it first started out,
it was kind of like a fun thing, right, You're
going snatch out or Instagram and like you can put
(24:20):
the little bunny ears on and you know, you take
photos with your kids or your nephews and nieces. You no, like,
it's fun stuff, right, but you know, progress to where
you could really alter your appearance. And I think if
you're able to compartmentalize and see it as, oh, this
is just social media, I think it could be harmless.
But for the majority of people, it's not that harmless.
(24:41):
And even in Norway, I know that they've taken steps
to try and even band filters like that on Instagram
don't make it hard for you to post photos like
that because they want people to be deceived, you know,
and when you when you look online, this is for
not only girls but also guys. If you keep seeing
these huge body builders and you know, perfect skin, no acne,
(25:04):
ripped muscles or women online it may be worse. You know,
you're seeing women who and nothing wrong with surgery, but
you can't compare yourself to somebody who has resources to
make additional modifications to their body. Is it They can
build much worse about yourself. So I think that social
media is amazing and I love it, but our minds
haven't really adapted to how fast it is evolving with
(25:26):
filters and things like that. So I think even talking
about these things is a good first step because if
you know how to, you know, process it, it could
lead to depression through comparison. What do you think are
the signs of someone who needs a break from social media? Well,
I think if you have to even ask yourself that question,
(25:47):
I think that could be a sign. You know, like
I think I may need a chill from you know,
Instagram for a second. It could be a sign. If
you're even catch yourself scrolling for hours and you're just
going through the motions and you're not getting anything, that
could be a sign that you need to take a break.
And a break could be a day, or a break
could be a weekend, or if you catch yourself comparing
(26:07):
yourself to people to where it's affecting your mood. And
this is kind of this is this is sneaky because
it creeps up on you. Because I had to debate
with my father the other day talking about is it
better to be depressed in twenty twenty two or nineteen
fifty two. You know, but back in the day, if
you're depressed, you were just there and depressed. But if
you're depressed today and you're online, you can see that
(26:28):
people have things that you don't have, and it can
make you feel much worse. So when it's the power,
it's affecting your mood, you think you're a bit more irritable.
It's pregraying you from getting sleep, it's praying from connecting
with people, making actual connections, whether it's calling somebody or
hanging out with people in real life. There could be
a sign that you might have to take just a
(26:48):
short break, you know, and maybe figure out a more
effective way to you social media, because it's not going
anywhere anytime soon. But breaks aren't necessary. Their producers talk
to you before this end of because I feel like
you're answering questions within questions that I was supposed to
ask you, which is amazing. By the way, I'm like,
where your brief I was talking to Angela before Now
(27:10):
I'm kidding. I know, Wait a minute, this conversation is
so good. Depersonalization and de realization what are the differences.
So with depersonalization is where you feel like maybe you
(27:30):
aren't yourself right. So you're sitting there and you're like, oh,
I'm Michelle Williams, but I don't think I'm Michelle Williams
or what's Michelle Williams doing so not people will maybe
talk to themselves or for themselves in third person, like, oh,
you don't feel like you're attached with yourself right. And
the realization is when you feel as if things don't
feel as real as like you know it's real, but
(27:51):
you're not sure if this is actually happening, or if
you're in the moment you know, And a lot of
times that can be caused, but it can be a
trauma response where maybe you're having, you know, a flashback,
there's something that happened in the past, or maybe you've
had trauma build up over time to the point where
you have your relationship or reality is distorted. It's not
(28:12):
the same as psychosis, which is like a complete break
from reality, like you're so here and you're so present,
but you're having doubts about the legitimacy of you being
alive right here as a person, or you being in Atlanta.
You know, you're like, oh, like Atlanta feels different today.
Maybe I'm not, maybe I'm in San Diego, maybe I'm
(28:32):
in New York, you know, but you don't feel like
your surroundings are actually what like, right now, I'm in
my room. But if I felt as if I was,
you know, at a coffee shop, it would feel weird
to me. I would think to myself, No, I'm in
my room. I'm not in a coffee shop. But sometimes
people have depersonalization and orgy realization and it may go
(28:53):
on for a while. And also substances can bring it
on to you know, sometimes depending on what drugs or
substance people you That's why I will tell people to
you know, I do believe in alternative methods and us
putting more mainto research, but you should always talk to
your doctor first because some people will you try something
and trip up on the substance and it may take months,
(29:15):
sometimes years to like even kind of get back to
feeling like how they used to feel before. Wow, that
is so important. Like you said, there are other methods
of dealing with trauma and that can be used guided
by a professional in that area. But I know there
(29:36):
are times where people do take it upon themselves to
try and experiment with drugs. Is a psychedelics that can
kind of alter certain things. But at the same time,
those same psychedelics have been used, like I said, guided
with professionals. They know the dosing you need, the time
(29:56):
you should take it, and you know all of that
good stuff. So I am definitely I'm not against medication.
I'm not against holistic methods, but we should be wise
in using them. What are your thoughts on relationships while
you are suffering with anxiety and or depression. How what
(30:19):
is one step a person can do to have a
healthy relationship. Well, I think unless you have a healthy
relationship with yourself, you're always going to be asking the
other person for more than what they can probably provide.
So you're never going to be in a position to
really have a good relationship because you're kind of grappling
with things internally. So a lot of times you have
(30:40):
to be intentional with yourself first and figure out what
you need, and if you don't know what you need
to tell people to do the basics, get enough sleep,
get a little bit of exercising, and get good nutrition.
And if you can't do those three things, like I
really believe, if you're having a hard time one of
those three, it may not be the right time for
a relationship. Because you go in it's kind of like
(31:00):
a business to you know, tactic, like that you go
to buy a car to dealership. They tell you that
if you leave the same price is going to change
in like an hour, right, So you're like, I'm gonna
have to buy the car now, and you end up,
you know, getting played out of two three four thousand
extra dollars because they have the leverage. So when you
go into relationship and you're not right within yourself, you're
(31:23):
really working with somebody who has the upper hand. And
I think that's how people sometimes put themselves on the
fast track, that things like gas lighting and abuse because
you needed them more than they you, you know, because
you need them to kind of help like complete who
you were as a person. So when you go into
relationship needing things, you're kind of doomed from the from
(31:45):
the beginning. But you don't realize until five years later,
and then you know you're trying to pick up the
pieces and you realize that you will kind of, you know,
screw from the jump. I have never heard it that way,
because when you use the term gaslighting, we hear it
from the phase of how do you know you're being gaslit?
Versus the perspective you just shared. You went into the
(32:07):
relationship with a certain need, and that's probably why you
tolerate it, the gaslighting. You probably didn't know you were
being gaslet because being gaslet still is a form of
attention from that person, right, Yeah, It's it's intermittent reinforcement.
So it's like, let's say I'm dating you and I'm
being toxic to you all the time, but then on
(32:29):
a random day, you know, we'll go to Disney, you know,
and then you'll know that, Okay, I'll talkerate a whole
lot of BS, and at some point we'll have a
great day or a great week or a great month,
you know, and sometimes you know, you feel like, okay,
Like I've seen my sisters told many times when she's
talking with her friends and they're telling themselves, oh so,
so it's boyfriend is acting too nice. I'm worried. I'm scared,
(32:52):
like something is a little off right, but because you know,
like you go through the toxic phase, but then you
know that if you stick around long enough, something will
happen that you enjoy. You'll have a good monk or
a good summer. But then you'll go back to the
part where you don't feel respected, but you'll tolerate that
if you really, really really put yourself in a position
to where you need that or you feel like you
need that to be who you are, and you don't
(33:14):
realize that you've been gas lit sometimes a tool. It's
over with, you know, like the relationship is done and
your friends are clapping that you're out of the relationship,
but you're sad and you're confused. Sometimes that might be
the first sign that you're going through it when your
friends are rejoicing that you're single, because you know, like
they've tried to tell you, and sometimes you can't tell
people certain things. They may have to go through it.
(33:35):
And it's painful watching somebody that you love, especially when
you saw yourself and them going through a certain thing.
You know, but you should they get out of it
now that maybe maybe they could even resume the relationship
with that person or somebody else you know, relatively soon.
But you have to be in a position where you
don't need anything. A lot of it's TV two. I mean,
(33:57):
I love Disney and you know the shows, but we've
been sold this idea that you know, like somebody's coming
to complete you. You know, I don't think we're coming
to complete you. You're coming as a whole person with
them as well, and you then build something great. But
when you feel like I need, like even just saying
the word I need this person, I don't think that
(34:18):
sets you up in a good place mentally. Kojo, you're awesome.
Do you do relationship tips and counseling as well? Perhaps
hopefully it can apply to my own life too, Because
what you're saying is so good, y'all. You have to
follow him on TikTok doctor Kljo Sarfo. He is amazing.
(34:41):
So for those who are listening, who are about to
follow you for the first time, for those that are
suffering from depression, can you share an exercise with listeners
of what they can do, maybe something right now as
they're listening. I would say the first thing to do
is you have to feel proud of yourself. You know,
(35:04):
if you're depressed and you know the day is over
and you look back and you've been in bed all
day and there's clothes all around, there's nothing to be
proud of. There's just no tangible evidence that we were
productive today. So for somebody who's depressed normally, I say
to just do one thing. You have to keep it
super simple because the pressure makes everything hard. If you're
judging your pre depressed self to your depressed self, you're
(35:26):
already setting yourself up for trouble because you can't as effectively.
You can't get things done, something like brushing your teeth
could be difficult, taking a shower, getting out of the house.
So I would say, if you're depressed right now, figure
out one thing that you want to do that you
can be proud of. So it can be even something
as simple as getting out of the bed, like force
yourself to get out the bed, go for a walk,
(35:46):
and then get right back in bed. You can go
right back to, you know, bene washing the show you
were watching. You don't have to clean the room, you know,
but as long as you can say at the end
of the day, oh, I got out of bed, and
I walked around the block and I came back side.
I'm proud of myself today. You have to you have
to give yourself momentum, because if you're not moving, it's
the hardest part is starting, you know, So you have
(36:08):
to feel like your emotion. That's so good, y'all. He
is offer of books. He does have a mental health
work book called Feeling Good, and he also has a
book entitled You All Ready won Do you have any
tip bits on anything coming up in the future that
(36:29):
we can also be looking forward to. There's so much
that I wanted to do. You know a lot of
people who are struggling with certain things, they may never
be able to share their own stories. I would love
it for people to come out and start to share
these stories. I love those stories on social media where
it's a success story as somebody who made it out
of a difficult situation and now they're That motivates me.
But right now, that's why I'm into a lot of storytelling.
(36:51):
So you'll see more skits. And I'm not sure if
we're gonna do like a book tour or something like that,
but I love to get comedy show was going here
in La at least once a month, because we did
one last year in October, and it's so cool to
see people come together and talk and it makes me
realize how much I missed that. Like, I'm just looking
(37:12):
for reason to get together and out the house and
happy and to be smiling. I think if we can
do that, we realize that we have much more in
common than we'd like to admit. So I'm looking to
you know, have some shows here and Los Angeles, and
then of course you see what other opportunities arise. Amazing, amazing,
absolutely exciting. Your book title you already won is stirring
(37:37):
my soul. Give us a brief description, and now I'll
let you go because I need folks to get that
book from the title alone. Yes, man, so you already won.
It's a mindset thing. I feel like, if you start
the day off thinking that you can't do something, you're
not gonna do it, and you know, people might think
that you're delusional. When you really believe in yourself, you know,
(37:58):
I'll say, no, I already wanted, I don't know I'm
gonna do this, I'm gonna do that, And my brothers
will ask me every now and then, can you beat
Lebron James and the one one game in basketball, I'll say, yes,
I can. You know now, of course he'll beat me.
But I have to have the mindset that I'm gonna
win with everything that I do, because if you have
that mindset, you'll surprise yourself. So in the book, I
(38:19):
talk about my draining through life, how I got my doctorate,
and I also talk about being diagnosed with ADHD. And
that was the one chapter in the book I wanted
to remove because my fear was that I would be
successful someday in some capacity and that somebody would come
and say that I was successful because I took ADHD
medication in college. Like that was my fear. For whatever reason,
(38:40):
that fear just kind of like I was like, ah,
I wanted people to think that I did it on
my own. Like I didn't want people to think that
a medication helped me, even though it's a medication for
a real condition. So, you know, I kept that part
in the book. And it's just a mindset, you know,
not being afraid, doing your best, to be fearless and authentic,
and that's something that I'm still working on today. So
(39:03):
the title was very intentional. You already wanted, and I
hope that it jumps out out of people and people
start to adopt. Come on, doctor Koljure, we are so
grateful for you today. Thank you for checking in. I
appreciate you. Thank you for having me. You're so welcome.
What an amazing, inspiring, hope giving, life giving conversation. He's
(39:28):
so cool and I could tell that he's just got
tons of information that he wanted to continue sharing. The
encouraging thing is I want people to know that your
diagnosis is not who you are. A diagnosis. It's just
some information. It's data. It's information and data that's given
so that you'll know what you're working with and what
(39:51):
to do with it. Depression, anxiety, adhd ADD, bipolar schizophrenia.
You know again, that's not a label. I would keep
driving that point home. It's just data, It's just information,
nothing to be ashamed about. And I'm gonna hit somebody
upside the head if they ever made you feel ashamed
(40:15):
or made you feel bad for a diagnosis that you have.
All right, well, I am so excited that y'all are
here with me again. I just want to make sure
that you guys continue walking away with good information and
great advice. I'm going to continue to bring in great influencers, doctors, practitioners, family.
(40:39):
I'm excited about that, all right, So continue checking in
and always know that you are loved and there's nothing
you can do about it. I mean, what you're gonna do,
all right about him? Checking In with Michelle Williams is
(41:24):
a production of iHeartRadio and The Black Effect. For more
podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows,
Welcome to Checking In with Michelle Williams, a production of
My Heart Radio and The Black Effect. There are tons
of people using social media to give hope, to inspire,
(00:24):
to be fun, and my next guest is doing just that.
He is going to be checking in with us. He's
got so much to share. I'm so glad that he's here.
So will y'all stay tuned? All right, let's see. Hey, everybody,
(00:48):
welcome to another fire episode of Checking In. It is
a joy that you guys continue to check in week
after week. Your download my episodes, and we could not
be in this amazing season three of Checking In if
not for you. And the reason why also we are
(01:09):
able to be in another season is because of guests
like I am about to talk to Rhett Now. Our
et Rhett Now. He hails from Los Angeles, California. He
lives in Los Angeles, and he's awesome. He's a social
media content creator, mental health nurse, practitioner, author. He's also
(01:33):
a fellow podcaster and psychotherapist with over three million followers
on all of his social media channels. Y'all listen, Please
welcome doctor Kojoe Sorfo to Checking In. Now. You're having me.
I appreciate this. I love the energy. Listen. We need it.
(01:57):
I know where I am in Atlanta. It is raining,
it's cloudy, but you are lighting up our lives right
now with your amazing content and your openness about your
own journey. But at the same time, you're literally changing
lives one TikTok after another. Thank you everybody. I appreciate
(02:17):
that you use social media to reach so many people.
But before social media, give us your background and how
you became first a mental health nurse practitioner and then
now psychotherapist. Give us that journey, right. So I guess
we have to go back to high school. And I
(02:38):
wasn't the best high school student. And I remember my
dad had a conversation with me in the car and
he was like, what do you want to do with
your life? And I was like, ah, I think I
want to wrap and he was like, no, what do
you want to do with your life? And I was like, oh,
he suggests something, and he said, oh, if you go
get it to year nursing degree, I'll stop, you know,
bugging you and you can do your thing. So I
did that. I went to nursing. After my nursing degree,
(03:01):
I got two degrees, so I got a bachelor's degree
second after the associate's degree. And after that, I learned
about the DNP program where school to get a doctorate
and specialized in psychiatry and mental health. Um, and that's
why I did uh and um. You know, by doing that,
I became a psychotherapist as well. And I was working
in Virginia, in southern Virginia doing friendic psychiatry and I
(03:25):
was posting, you know, content on TikTok, and over time
that kind of took off and it gave me the
ability to you know, go public and do it, you know,
as a career. But before that, I was even promoting
mental health awareness through a clothing company, and that clothing
company was called Brontie and Senora, which stood for Gentlemen
(03:46):
and Lady. That was very helpful for me because we
got the chance to go to Washington, c to go
to a Mental Health America conference where I believe we
saw you talk and in twenty seventeen. Yeah, so it's
like a full circle moment for me. I remember that.
That is amazing. The topic of mental health can be
(04:07):
swept under the rug in the black community. Not only
the black community, the subculture's period, you know. So I
just just know, like, and I get messages and dams
from black people outside of America, Jamaica, Africa that are like,
(04:30):
we don't talk about that over here, Thank you so much.
So now I can tune in to hear what you're
talking about. How has that been for you personally? It
feels really good, you know whatever. I mean, anythingbody had podcast,
you know, interview, or I get a chance to talk
to somebody, it feels it feels great that somebody want to,
(04:50):
you know, talk to me and take time out of
there day to hear my thoughts. But when it's someone
like you who's accomplished and also you know, black, it
means a little bit more because we don't talk about
these things in our community a lot. And sometimes I'll
sit here and I'll you know, be on the Today's
Show or whatever, but I'll be waiting for you know,
black entertainers like you to talk about these things because
(05:13):
a lot of times, as our community, we don't, you know,
we'll talk about it, but we'll use a different word.
So instead of saying depression, you know, you might you know,
say I've been feeling low for a little bit like
we don't want to just come out and say it.
But in order to fix the problems, sometimes you have
to say it and acknowledge it and go through the
pain of accepting that this is going on, and then
you can get to the recovery process. But a lot
(05:34):
of times there's a community, I feel like we hold
ourselves back. We don't want to actually talk about the truth,
you know, and if there's somebody in our family who's
struggling with mental illness, a lot of times, you know,
you'll just kind of put that person to the side,
or you know, try not to talk about it in
public because you know that person might bring shame to
the family. So I think it's it's going to be
a game changer to this talk talk about these things openly,
(05:55):
and it's going to help us as a community. How
has it been like in your own face family, It's
been adventure. In my own family. I talked about having
eighty online a lot, And I remember when I was
in grad school working on this doctorate to help people out.
My mom she took my car somewhere and she opened
(06:16):
up the compartment in the middle and she found like
a bottle of adderall and she googled it, you know,
to see what mixed and feemy sauts were. And then
she was bugging out because she's like, are you taking
drugs or what's going on? Or like like are you
like And I'm like, Mom, I just can't focus and
I went to a doctor and I can focus. I
was trying to lay it out to her, but she
was freaking out because a lot of times, as a parent,
(06:38):
if your child is taking medication, and I'm not I
don't have any kids yet, but I would assume that
you would take your child's mental staze and you might
let that be a reflection if you as a parent,
you know. So that's why I was thinking, that's where
my mom was going through. So, I mean, as I
talked about it more now my family, they're opening up
(06:59):
to the idea of therap And the first time I
told my sister I went to a therapist during the pandemic,
she was like, are you okay or you know, And
I've gone through a breakup too, so she was like,
well it the girl. I'm like, no, it's just it's
something I should have done a long time ago, but
it's only now that I have the resources to do it.
So now I'm gonna open myself up to you know,
to doing that. But I think as I've been speaking
(07:20):
about it more, I've been seeing my family members come
out and say, Okay, maybe I'll try therapy. Or I
think I've been a little bit anxious, or I'm struggling
to drive on the highway because I feel like the
walls are closing in on me. So I think we
all go through it. But somebody has to step up,
and you know, because a lot of times we wait
for people to like, you know, say that they're going
through something as well before we acknowledge it because you
(07:41):
might be embarrassed or shame. So somebody has to go
out there and just kind of put the feet of
water and kind of test out the waters and see
what it's like. You were about to go into. How
you sharing your own story of how you discovered that
you had ADHD right as a practitioner, Did you know
(08:03):
you always had it? Or tell us first of all,
what is ADHD? Right? So ADHD is a brain based condition.
You know, more than likely you're born with it, and
it's a closer symptoms. You know, you can have somebody
who's struggling to pay attention. Somebody who's just organized. You
can have somebody who's impulsive, overly talkative, people who have
(08:24):
a hard time starting something and finishing it all the
way through. And a lot of times women have to
go years, sometimes decades without being diagnosed because they may
present as being you know, a bit more quiet and shy,
but they're soundly struggling and it is organized. They can't
you know, organize their thoughts, keep things together. So there's
a closer symptoms that affects a lot of people, and
it doesn't really go away in adulthood. But people think
(08:47):
that's like a little boys, you know, disease and you'll
grow out of it, or sometimes in our community you
feel like you can spank a kid out of it,
you know, but it's it's a real condition and it
is genetic more unlikely you got from your parents who
have probably had it their whole lives, but they never
knew what was going on, so they just thought that
that's how they were. You're so right, spank it out
(09:10):
of them, or can you imagine telling a child you
just need to sit and focus More's there's something going
on to why I can't well stop watching TV so much?
Make sure you sit in a silent place. I don't know,
if you know. The more I sit in a silent place,
the more my mind and thoughts get to rambling and
(09:31):
so wow. I think sometimes this diagnosis can go dismissed
because of the fact that people say why. I think
all adults have a little bit of ADHD, especially if
you've got kids running around, a dog running around, husband
or wife. First you're doing so your mind is so
it's like, what did it feel like growing up or
(09:54):
as an adult? I believe you got your diagnosis as
an adult? Correct? Yeah, yeah, what was going on? So?
For me? I knew I had it in second grade,
you know, honestly, Look, I would see I would tell
my mom that I would girl at school, you know,
grew up in National, Tennessee. I would see the white kids.
They would like leave like halfway through the day and
(10:15):
they'll go to the nurse's office and they'll take medication
and they come back and they would get their work done.
And I would tell my mom, oh, like those kids,
like I think they're taking some type of medication or
something like that. I'm like, hey, get checked out. And
my mom was like, no, like we'll pray for you.
You don't need that. None of my kids have anything
like that. So um I believe that. So I use
that to you know, I willed myself to becoming a
(10:37):
good student, but I always felt like my whole life
I had to try. Spots is hard to get like
maybe half as done as the average person. And the
seventh grade I was watching a baseball game and there
was a player for the Braves who there was a
routine ball that was hit to him. He got he
got the ball and he jogged over to first base
(10:59):
and then he out there after the runner got there,
so it was an error. And this is a naturally
televised game, and I'm like, what's going on? And the
Braves lost that game. And then after that game, the
first basement, his name is Adam Laroche. He came out
and said that he has add or ADHD and he struggled.
That was his whole whole life, and he lapsed like
he had a lapse like on national TV in the
(11:20):
middle of the game. And then that was seventh grade
for me. And at that point in time, I knew
that that's what I had because I felt like that
happened to me during class where like I'm taking the test,
but then I zone out and before you know, you
see kids starting to like turn the papers and I'm
still the working on my assignment. But I didn't bring
it up to my parents because we didn't have insurance
(11:40):
and they're just trying to, you know, keep the lights on.
So I told myself, if had like cancer or whatever, okay,
we can go to the doctor. But if you can't focus,
that's not a real reason to try and go to
the doctor. Like you just have to tough it out,
write it out, you know. And that's that was my
mentality until I was twenty five and I got assessed. Wow,
first of all, I'm so sorry that you had to
(12:03):
carry that weight like man blood and gushion out and
I don't have liquids coming out of all the crevices,
you know what I'm saying. You felt like this wasn't
a big enough issue to take to your parents, And
then I think parents, now there's so much out there
and talked about as far as mental health is concerned,
(12:24):
that prayerfully more parents will take their children seriously if
their child feels like something is going on. Two for
parents to get more interactive, because some of our parents
feel like as a teenager, oh this is just a
growing phase. My kids are just hyper or if they're isolated.
They mistake a child's isolation for he or she is
(12:47):
just being a teenager. They don't want to be around
us old people anymore. Versus no, they might be isolated
because there is depression, the hyperactivity is all much else
just hyper. I'm gonna just put them in gymnastics to
get all their energy out right, you know what I mean?
So hopefully now with people like you out there sharing
(13:12):
daily with the millions of followers that you have, I know,
for effect weekly, there are parents that are like, I'm
gonna get my children assessed because of doctor Kulcho. I
think so, and even looking at some of the dams
that I get. Sometimes nothing you have to scare people,
you know, I try to, like, you know, scare folks
for information because on the Internet, based off of how
(13:33):
you present a video and it goes viral, you know,
people might think, oh wow, like I'm not gonna get this,
or like does this happen to me? But when you
put out the evidence that ADHD does increase the likeliod depression,
you know, by at least three times, and it also
increases your risk for suicide, ideation and things like that.
Then when parents sees that, they're like, okay, all right,
maybe I shouldn't take this thing lightly. Let me be
(13:54):
proactive and you know, help out a child, and the
help that you get when you're in fourth grade, seventh grade,
tenth grade, it's going to help you out as an
adult because you're building up your self esteem, you know.
But some issues that we don't fix while we're kids,
they kind of follow us as adults, and you don't
realize until maybe you get into a relationship and it's
coming out, or maybe when something bad happens or you're
(14:17):
grieving and you're feeling all out of sources. So the
work that you do as a child, or what your
parents do for you as a child, it doesn't matter
a lot. Called Joe put a pinion that you just
said some amazing things in there. Oh, this stuff can
can come up in relationships. I know that I personally
(14:37):
experienced certain things that were not healed or assessed from
childhood did come up in adulthood. So you are right
about that. You said a few minutes ago, you mentioned
the word evidence, right, and I was like speaking of
the word evidence. Prior to your social media activity and
(15:01):
even being a mental health practitioner, you were in forensic
PSYCHIATRYT that's correct, talk about that transition because that you know,
in school, that was my major criminal justice to go
into psychology. Yes, wow, yes, yes, yeah. It was a
great experience for me and it shaped me a lot
(15:21):
as an individual, and it kind of even led to
me going on social media because when I first started
that job in Virginia, it was very intense, Like I
would have patients who had committed murders. Some of them
had maybe murdered their parents or the murdered the other
people or burned buildings down, and these are pretty severe crimes,
you know, like if I were to give details of
(15:41):
certain crimes, you could google it, so I can't even
talk about certain things. But it was real, Like I
don't even watch scary movies or scary shows because like
I actually lived at where I would have patients come
in my office and I was on a daily basis
talk to people who had murdered people and done all
kinds of through some things. So it made me appreciate
(16:02):
people on a different level because when you think of
somebody who has taken away somebody's life. You know, you
wouldn't expect to show that person any empathy. But then
you know, I'm looking at the person, I'm like, Okay,
this is a person who just made a mistake, you know,
but maybe if it was my family member or if
it was my niece, that they did something too when
I feel the same way. So on a moral level,
(16:24):
I had to grapple with a lot of different questions.
But because it was such a heavy type of thing,
you know, I needed the outlet, which was social media,
which I could go and make, you know, the videos
and make it funny or whatever, and I didn't have
to think about that. But it was very helpful to
work in that environment because I learned so much from
those patients, Like they would teach me life lessons, and
(16:45):
some of them, when they got stable on their men's
they will come out and say, I did this, it
was a mistake. I should never done this. I deal
with this, you know, guilt every day, and I think
it's helped me out a lot, just as a man.
Just hearing some of those stories, wow, wow, culture, that
is pretty powerful, you know, because I do watch the
(17:06):
stories about true crime and how people go in and
talk to people who have done some of the most
gruesome crimes, and then you do kind of find yourself
at least I do like feeling sorry for them. But
then it also still two can be right. You can
feel sorry for that person, especially when they've expressed so
much remorse. Then the other thing is right too. Someone
(17:28):
else is suffering because of that unmet need that you
had as a child, and then it manifested as an adult,
and you took someone's life as a result of things
going unmet for them as a child. Childhood is so
so crucial. How we were shaped as children play such
(17:48):
a huge role in how we are as adults. What
do you see as having a mental health impact on people,
good and bad? As an influence, But at the same time,
you are a professional, so you're more than just an
influence that you actually got some credentials to possibly diagnose
and treat people. What are you seeing on to social
media that's having an impact on people, first of all
(18:11):
in a bad way. Honestly, it's you know, in this
post pandemic world, I don't think any of us chose to,
you know, like when COVID happened, we were forced to
be by ourselves. But what I'm seeing now is that
there's not a lot of community just in real life.
Like we're lonelier than ever, and like just looking through DMS,
(18:32):
I feel like I have a court sided seat at
looking at human suffering. Like I'll just go through DMS
at night, and there's some people who they would love
to just get out of bed and take their dog
on a walk. That would make them feel like they
want the super Bowl. There's some people who would just
like to have a friend come over. And you know,
even when I'm on a live stream and I'll say
things like all right, you just need one friend, so
(18:53):
many people in the comments will say I don't have
one friend. I don't like people were not we don't
have that community, you know, And I think we're lonely
than ever. And of course, you know, when it comes
to relationships people, you know, there's this whole thing of
oh single about us on relationship, But just in terms
of friendships, I think that that's a big part of life,
(19:13):
having connections, you know, and being lonely or isolating yourself.
It's not good for your mental health, it's not good
for your physical health. You know like things like that
can even worsen your cardio vascular health. You could be
a higher transfer things like heart attacks and strokes just
for not having a sense of community around you. So
it's a human need. But we're doing so much social media,
(19:34):
so much tele medicine, we're not really getting together in
real life and meet with people. But I do like
the Internet, and if you can make friends through that way,
I would say that's a good start. But I don't
think we're as connected as we used to be even
ten years ago. And that's some concerning Now, what about
from somebody like me. I like my solitude? Am I
(19:56):
at risk for cardio vascular I like being home? I
really really do. And I'm the same way actually, And
I mean I'll go out to events and things like that,
but when I can, I enjoy being my own space.
So I get to think I can cut on a movie,
I can laugh with my dog. It doesn't take much
to make me happy. But I think with you like knowing,
(20:18):
Let's say you need something right like you need to
vent to somebody. If you're able to call at least
one person, and then you can talk to that person,
and that's somebody who is also able to reciprocate with
you and tell you what you know they're going through
that that's good enough, that's so good. Okay, okay, you
are right. I definitely believe and I am, like you know,
(20:40):
going to events every now and then or walking around
the community. You know, I have a dog now and
so it makes me have to take him out and walk.
And then you meet other people along the way. They
have other furry monsters. And I saw a video of
you where you were it was acting you were laying
in the bed, but you were also being the person saying, hey,
you got to get out of bed today, and you're like, okay,
(21:02):
well I understand. I'll wash the dishes for you and
I'll come back and check on you tomorrow. That is
pretty crucial for someone who is, you know, going through
depression is to prayerfully. Everybody has one person. Also another
point on that, like with you being a public figure,
you know, it's like the average person can maybe just
(21:24):
go to Walmart and just stroll around. You may not
be able to do that as much. So that does
change your life. And I think that, you know, when
you look at people who've been in limelight for many years,
you know, like I'm here in La so I just watch.
I don't know, I'll ask myself like is this enjoyable,
you know or like or is it sustainable? You know,
like over abundance of attention like big awards, Grammy Oscar,
(21:48):
the great things. But then to go from that to
you know, you draw back a little bit, but people
still know you. It's different because people treat you differently, um,
but you're still you. So I think that you see
where child starts a lot, where they have all this
attention and then they become adults and they're trying their
best just to keep their head above water. But people
don't see them the same. You know, they see themselves
(22:10):
the same, but it lends themselves to more isolation. So
I've been thinking a lot about that as a lake. Okay,
has that been happening to you? Are you able to
Are you able to go out? Yeah? Yeah, I go out,
I do everything. But in some way it's kind of
you know, changing a bit. You know, I've been followed
(22:31):
home before. I had three electric bikes stolen in La
so like I moved because of that. So, yeah, you
can't be too predictable here. It's still you know, things
can happen, so it's interesting. I went to one event
and I saw Spider Man Toby McGuire, and you know,
we're all there having fun asking for pictures, and I
(22:52):
washed him, you know, because as a psychotherapist, I just
kind of washed people, you know, off in the corner.
And after about five minutes his demeanor went, I'm like
happy like us to like his social barity was done.
And I thought to myself, he's been a Spider Man
for what ten fifteen, almost twenty years, Like, imagine having
to go through that every single day. I'm like, how
(23:13):
does a person like that protect their mental health? Is
just something that I think about. M Well, thank you
for thinking and having that concern. You know, I can
imagine you don't want to hurt people's feelings by denying
them the picture, but there is a part of you
that does shut off, and either you just go through
(23:33):
the motions or you politely tell people give me a minute,
I'll be right back, or some people don't have the
grace and they snap on the person. So yeah, I
can definitely definitely understand that. When we were talking about
social media before You Loved It, we were talking about
this whole filter thing. How a person can go on
(23:57):
social media and you can go on their bare faced,
but social media will make you look one thousand times
quote unquote better, right, And we were talking about that
before you lock down. What were your thoughts on that.
It's interesting because I think when it first started out,
it was kind of like a fun thing, right, You're
going snatch out or Instagram and like you can put
(24:20):
the little bunny ears on and you know, you take
photos with your kids or your nephews and nieces. You no, like,
it's fun stuff, right, but you know, progress to where
you could really alter your appearance. And I think if
you're able to compartmentalize and see it as, oh, this
is just social media, I think it could be harmless.
But for the majority of people, it's not that harmless.
(24:41):
And even in Norway, I know that they've taken steps
to try and even band filters like that on Instagram
don't make it hard for you to post photos like
that because they want people to be deceived, you know,
and when you when you look online, this is for
not only girls but also guys. If you keep seeing
these huge body builders and you know, perfect skin, no acne,
(25:04):
ripped muscles or women online it may be worse. You know,
you're seeing women who and nothing wrong with surgery, but
you can't compare yourself to somebody who has resources to
make additional modifications to their body. Is it They can
build much worse about yourself. So I think that social
media is amazing and I love it, but our minds
haven't really adapted to how fast it is evolving with
(25:26):
filters and things like that. So I think even talking
about these things is a good first step because if
you know how to, you know, process it, it could
lead to depression through comparison. What do you think are
the signs of someone who needs a break from social media? Well,
I think if you have to even ask yourself that question,
(25:47):
I think that could be a sign. You know, like
I think I may need a chill from you know,
Instagram for a second. It could be a sign. If
you're even catch yourself scrolling for hours and you're just
going through the motions and you're not getting anything, that
could be a sign that you need to take a break.
And a break could be a day, or a break
could be a weekend, or if you catch yourself comparing
(26:07):
yourself to people to where it's affecting your mood. And
this is kind of this is this is sneaky because
it creeps up on you. Because I had to debate
with my father the other day talking about is it
better to be depressed in twenty twenty two or nineteen
fifty two. You know, but back in the day, if
you're depressed, you were just there and depressed. But if
you're depressed today and you're online, you can see that
(26:28):
people have things that you don't have, and it can
make you feel much worse. So when it's the power,
it's affecting your mood, you think you're a bit more irritable.
It's pregraying you from getting sleep, it's praying from connecting
with people, making actual connections, whether it's calling somebody or
hanging out with people in real life. There could be
a sign that you might have to take just a
(26:48):
short break, you know, and maybe figure out a more
effective way to you social media, because it's not going
anywhere anytime soon. But breaks aren't necessary. Their producers talk
to you before this end of because I feel like
you're answering questions within questions that I was supposed to
ask you, which is amazing. By the way, I'm like,
where your brief I was talking to Angela before Now
(27:10):
I'm kidding. I know, Wait a minute, this conversation is
so good. Depersonalization and de realization what are the differences.
So with depersonalization is where you feel like maybe you
(27:30):
aren't yourself right. So you're sitting there and you're like, oh,
I'm Michelle Williams, but I don't think I'm Michelle Williams
or what's Michelle Williams doing so not people will maybe
talk to themselves or for themselves in third person, like, oh,
you don't feel like you're attached with yourself right. And
the realization is when you feel as if things don't
feel as real as like you know it's real, but
(27:51):
you're not sure if this is actually happening, or if
you're in the moment you know, And a lot of
times that can be caused, but it can be a
trauma response where maybe you're having, you know, a flashback,
there's something that happened in the past, or maybe you've
had trauma build up over time to the point where
you have your relationship or reality is distorted. It's not
(28:12):
the same as psychosis, which is like a complete break
from reality, like you're so here and you're so present,
but you're having doubts about the legitimacy of you being
alive right here as a person, or you being in Atlanta.
You know, you're like, oh, like Atlanta feels different today.
Maybe I'm not, maybe I'm in San Diego, maybe I'm
(28:32):
in New York, you know, but you don't feel like
your surroundings are actually what like, right now, I'm in
my room. But if I felt as if I was,
you know, at a coffee shop, it would feel weird
to me. I would think to myself, No, I'm in
my room. I'm not in a coffee shop. But sometimes
people have depersonalization and orgy realization and it may go
(28:53):
on for a while. And also substances can bring it
on to you know, sometimes depending on what drugs or
substance people you That's why I will tell people to
you know, I do believe in alternative methods and us
putting more mainto research, but you should always talk to
your doctor first because some people will you try something
and trip up on the substance and it may take months,
(29:15):
sometimes years to like even kind of get back to
feeling like how they used to feel before. Wow, that
is so important. Like you said, there are other methods
of dealing with trauma and that can be used guided
by a professional in that area. But I know there
(29:36):
are times where people do take it upon themselves to
try and experiment with drugs. Is a psychedelics that can
kind of alter certain things. But at the same time,
those same psychedelics have been used, like I said, guided
with professionals. They know the dosing you need, the time
(29:56):
you should take it, and you know all of that
good stuff. So I am definitely I'm not against medication.
I'm not against holistic methods, but we should be wise
in using them. What are your thoughts on relationships while
you are suffering with anxiety and or depression. How what
(30:19):
is one step a person can do to have a
healthy relationship. Well, I think unless you have a healthy
relationship with yourself, you're always going to be asking the
other person for more than what they can probably provide.
So you're never going to be in a position to
really have a good relationship because you're kind of grappling
with things internally. So a lot of times you have
(30:40):
to be intentional with yourself first and figure out what
you need, and if you don't know what you need
to tell people to do the basics, get enough sleep,
get a little bit of exercising, and get good nutrition.
And if you can't do those three things, like I
really believe, if you're having a hard time one of
those three, it may not be the right time for
a relationship. Because you go in it's kind of like
(31:00):
a business to you know, tactic, like that you go
to buy a car to dealership. They tell you that
if you leave the same price is going to change
in like an hour, right, So you're like, I'm gonna
have to buy the car now, and you end up,
you know, getting played out of two three four thousand
extra dollars because they have the leverage. So when you
go into relationship and you're not right within yourself, you're
(31:23):
really working with somebody who has the upper hand. And
I think that's how people sometimes put themselves on the
fast track, that things like gas lighting and abuse because
you needed them more than they you, you know, because
you need them to kind of help like complete who
you were as a person. So when you go into
relationship needing things, you're kind of doomed from the from
(31:45):
the beginning. But you don't realize until five years later,
and then you know you're trying to pick up the
pieces and you realize that you will kind of, you know,
screw from the jump. I have never heard it that way,
because when you use the term gaslighting, we hear it
from the phase of how do you know you're being gaslit?
Versus the perspective you just shared. You went into the
(32:07):
relationship with a certain need, and that's probably why you
tolerate it, the gaslighting. You probably didn't know you were
being gaslet because being gaslet still is a form of
attention from that person, right, Yeah, It's it's intermittent reinforcement.
So it's like, let's say I'm dating you and I'm
being toxic to you all the time, but then on
(32:29):
a random day, you know, we'll go to Disney, you know,
and then you'll know that, Okay, I'll talkerate a whole
lot of BS, and at some point we'll have a
great day or a great week or a great month,
you know, and sometimes you know, you feel like, okay,
Like I've seen my sisters told many times when she's
talking with her friends and they're telling themselves, oh so,
so it's boyfriend is acting too nice. I'm worried. I'm scared,
(32:52):
like something is a little off right, but because you know,
like you go through the toxic phase, but then you
know that if you stick around long enough, something will
happen that you enjoy. You'll have a good monk or
a good summer. But then you'll go back to the
part where you don't feel respected, but you'll tolerate that
if you really, really really put yourself in a position
to where you need that or you feel like you
need that to be who you are, and you don't
(33:14):
realize that you've been gas lit sometimes a tool. It's
over with, you know, like the relationship is done and
your friends are clapping that you're out of the relationship,
but you're sad and you're confused. Sometimes that might be
the first sign that you're going through it when your
friends are rejoicing that you're single, because you know, like
they've tried to tell you, and sometimes you can't tell
people certain things. They may have to go through it.
(33:35):
And it's painful watching somebody that you love, especially when
you saw yourself and them going through a certain thing.
You know, but you should they get out of it
now that maybe maybe they could even resume the relationship
with that person or somebody else you know, relatively soon.
But you have to be in a position where you
don't need anything. A lot of it's TV two. I mean,
(33:57):
I love Disney and you know the shows, but we've
been sold this idea that you know, like somebody's coming
to complete you. You know, I don't think we're coming
to complete you. You're coming as a whole person with
them as well, and you then build something great. But
when you feel like I need, like even just saying
the word I need this person, I don't think that
(34:18):
sets you up in a good place mentally. Kojo, you're awesome.
Do you do relationship tips and counseling as well? Perhaps
hopefully it can apply to my own life too, Because
what you're saying is so good, y'all. You have to
follow him on TikTok doctor Kljo Sarfo. He is amazing.
(34:41):
So for those who are listening, who are about to
follow you for the first time, for those that are
suffering from depression, can you share an exercise with listeners
of what they can do, maybe something right now as
they're listening. I would say the first thing to do
is you have to feel proud of yourself. You know,
(35:04):
if you're depressed and you know the day is over
and you look back and you've been in bed all
day and there's clothes all around, there's nothing to be
proud of. There's just no tangible evidence that we were
productive today. So for somebody who's depressed normally, I say
to just do one thing. You have to keep it
super simple because the pressure makes everything hard. If you're
judging your pre depressed self to your depressed self, you're
(35:26):
already setting yourself up for trouble because you can't as effectively.
You can't get things done, something like brushing your teeth
could be difficult, taking a shower, getting out of the house.
So I would say, if you're depressed right now, figure
out one thing that you want to do that you
can be proud of. So it can be even something
as simple as getting out of the bed, like force
yourself to get out the bed, go for a walk,
(35:46):
and then get right back in bed. You can go
right back to, you know, bene washing the show you
were watching. You don't have to clean the room, you know,
but as long as you can say at the end
of the day, oh, I got out of bed, and
I walked around the block and I came back side.
I'm proud of myself today. You have to you have
to give yourself momentum, because if you're not moving, it's
the hardest part is starting, you know, So you have
(36:08):
to feel like your emotion. That's so good, y'all. He
is offer of books. He does have a mental health
work book called Feeling Good, and he also has a
book entitled You All Ready won Do you have any
tip bits on anything coming up in the future that
(36:29):
we can also be looking forward to. There's so much
that I wanted to do. You know a lot of
people who are struggling with certain things, they may never
be able to share their own stories. I would love
it for people to come out and start to share
these stories. I love those stories on social media where
it's a success story as somebody who made it out
of a difficult situation and now they're That motivates me.
But right now, that's why I'm into a lot of storytelling.
(36:51):
So you'll see more skits. And I'm not sure if
we're gonna do like a book tour or something like that,
but I love to get comedy show was going here
in La at least once a month, because we did
one last year in October, and it's so cool to
see people come together and talk and it makes me
realize how much I missed that. Like, I'm just looking
(37:12):
for reason to get together and out the house and
happy and to be smiling. I think if we can
do that, we realize that we have much more in
common than we'd like to admit. So I'm looking to
you know, have some shows here and Los Angeles, and
then of course you see what other opportunities arise. Amazing, amazing,
absolutely exciting. Your book title you already won is stirring
(37:37):
my soul. Give us a brief description, and now I'll
let you go because I need folks to get that
book from the title alone. Yes, man, so you already won.
It's a mindset thing. I feel like, if you start
the day off thinking that you can't do something, you're
not gonna do it, and you know, people might think
that you're delusional. When you really believe in yourself, you know,
(37:58):
I'll say, no, I already wanted, I don't know I'm
gonna do this, I'm gonna do that, And my brothers
will ask me every now and then, can you beat
Lebron James and the one one game in basketball, I'll say, yes,
I can. You know now, of course he'll beat me.
But I have to have the mindset that I'm gonna
win with everything that I do, because if you have
that mindset, you'll surprise yourself. So in the book, I
(38:19):
talk about my draining through life, how I got my doctorate,
and I also talk about being diagnosed with ADHD. And
that was the one chapter in the book I wanted
to remove because my fear was that I would be
successful someday in some capacity and that somebody would come
and say that I was successful because I took ADHD
medication in college. Like that was my fear. For whatever reason,
(38:40):
that fear just kind of like I was like, ah,
I wanted people to think that I did it on
my own. Like I didn't want people to think that
a medication helped me, even though it's a medication for
a real condition. So, you know, I kept that part
in the book. And it's just a mindset, you know,
not being afraid, doing your best, to be fearless and authentic,
and that's something that I'm still working on today. So
(39:03):
the title was very intentional. You already wanted, and I
hope that it jumps out out of people and people
start to adopt. Come on, doctor Koljure, we are so
grateful for you today. Thank you for checking in. I
appreciate you. Thank you for having me. You're so welcome.
What an amazing, inspiring, hope giving, life giving conversation. He's
(39:28):
so cool and I could tell that he's just got
tons of information that he wanted to continue sharing. The
encouraging thing is I want people to know that your
diagnosis is not who you are. A diagnosis. It's just
some information. It's data. It's information and data that's given
so that you'll know what you're working with and what
(39:51):
to do with it. Depression, anxiety, adhd ADD, bipolar schizophrenia.
You know again, that's not a label. I would keep
driving that point home. It's just data, It's just information,
nothing to be ashamed about. And I'm gonna hit somebody
upside the head if they ever made you feel ashamed
(40:15):
or made you feel bad for a diagnosis that you have.
All right, well, I am so excited that y'all are
here with me again. I just want to make sure
that you guys continue walking away with good information and
great advice. I'm going to continue to bring in great influencers, doctors, practitioners, family.
(40:39):
I'm excited about that, all right, So continue checking in
and always know that you are loved and there's nothing
you can do about it. I mean, what you're gonna do,
all right about him? Checking In with Michelle Williams is
(41:24):
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