July 1, 2025 • 56 mins
In this episode, Michelle and Dr. RaQuel Hopkins (aka the Capacity Expert) dive into what it's like to manage her own capacity for things. They also discuss the incorrect usage of the term "narcissist". CHECK IN to this episode to avoid misdiagnosing yourself and others!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Checking In with Michelle Williams, a production of
iHeartRadio and The Black Effect. My next guest is very challenging.
She challenges the words like triggers, gaslighting, and even the
(00:23):
word narcissist. If you want to know what I'm talking about,
stay locked. We've got an amazing episode with Raquel Hopkins,
also known as the Capacity Expert. Y'all, we have Raquel
Hopkins Capacity Expert, certified coach, licensed therapist. We have to
(00:46):
say licensed because everybody would an opinion a license, including me,
but I do filter them through a licensed therapist. I
am so happy to have Raquel Hopkins also known as
Raquel Underscore, the Underscore Capacity Underscore Expert. And you were
(01:08):
just dropping something about the word capacity and how you
followed through on something where I might be shocked that you.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Were walking through.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Was it fear because we might think a therapist cannot
have fear. You're trained to teach us how to navigate
through fear. And once you got through the fear, five
months later, we're here knowing your name.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Yeah, but that's how capacity works, right Like, It's this
process of you continuously stretching and expanding and finding ways
to strengthen yourself and that process doesn't stop. So I'm
just liking all Like today, I'm actually having a really
emotional day, like and all of that represents capacity, right
(01:59):
because you know, for me, it's like all of God's
glory and like, I mean, I'm educated, right, Like I
have several degrees, a lot of letters behind my name,
but I know it's not I.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
See them NBA, ms, PCC, LPC. Okay, I'm sorry. Go ahead, Yeah, no,
you're good. I'm going to follow your lead.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
No, absolutely, absolutely, I want to just share with you.
I started talking about this topic of mental health on accident.
In twenty thirteen. I was doing an interview promoting a
Broadway musical that I was touring in called Fellow, and
somehow we got on a topic of depression and I
(02:45):
just blurreded out like, hey, I've been struggling with it
or it's something that's a part of my journey and Raquel,
I did not think that it would be a part
of the interview, you know how they can edit stuff out.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
No, it was. It became a focal point of the interview.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
It went everywhere, kind of like how you're feeling your name,
You just this amazing interview with Essence that you've done
all the morning shows. So imagine something that you said,
Raquel is everywhere, and I'm like, lord, what.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Did I just do?
Speaker 1 (03:22):
I just devulge something that normally people in my world
probably should keep to themselves because I don't want to
be seen as a liability a problem.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Can she show up? Is she depressed?
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Or I don't want when somebody looks at me, I
wonder if she depressed?
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Like I was, like, what did I do? Been in therapy?
Speaker 1 (03:45):
But then when I look back at being in therapy
since around tooth between twenty ten and twelve, I can't
remember because that time period was a blur, and I
just do remember going to therapy to tell on people
versus what you have been discussing about therapy. You gotta
(04:05):
do the work and not just go go to therapy.
That's something that I was reading in your interview with Essence,
and I want to share with you my journey.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
How I could I.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Feel like I could have handed I could handle you
now as my therapist versus or I could have maybe
I needed someone like you back then to be like
how long.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Are you gonna come in here? And talking about everybody else.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
It's a unique way of doing that though, like what
I'm with my clients, And that's the thing because you
can see these little videos, right, and it's it's to
get people's attention to listen to what I'm saying.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
But you can't.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
I always tell people you have to.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Acknowledge and validate where people are in order to even
be able to shift them.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
So ten sessions, like and I was like, I just
need now ten sessions.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
I probably could have did ten sessions. Are you talking
about somebody else?
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Because I was like, all right, now I'm yo, Like
tell me, like what's your goal of therapy?
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Like why are you here?
Speaker 3 (05:09):
I said it like that I wouldn't be like, oh
you underdeveloped. You don't have to go vaccine for even therapy,
Like never told you that.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Listen. But I became acquainted with you.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
I think I think what spoke to me was something
that you were talking about triggers and boundaries.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
And I pressed follow, I said, she is talking my talk.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
And I was so glad because you, as a black
woman being a therapist talking about topics that kind of
there we're starting to talk about the more in our families.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
My mother sent me a video of you not knowing.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
But I didn't want to be tach me no, no,
but I was like, mom, this is great. I didn't
want to bust her bubble and be like by Saulas already,
so I just let her be great and you know,
send me all the videos.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
But I was so excited to get that video.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
But I there are sometimes where I felt, like people
have told me in our community, it don't take all that,
we don't need therapy. Therapy doesn't therapy makes you weaker?
You self aware?
Speaker 2 (06:25):
What is all that like?
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Just grinds my gears a little bit? Yes, So I
was so endeared to you. It's who you are and
just from your clips. So I'm hearing you say there's
more to you than the clips, which I totally agree with.
But we need your voice. We absolutely need your voice.
(06:52):
When you say the word capacity, what does that mean.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Well, let me get some context because capacity is actually
rooted in adult development. So when I decided to leave
my full time job right and get into this mental
health space.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
I didn't really know what I was doing right.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
I just knew that I was unfulfilled where I was like,
I had went through that phase of you checked all
of the boxes and now it's like, what's next for you?
Speaker 2 (07:17):
And I needed a backup plan.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
And I always tell people that I have edge decrastination,
so I can go back to school over and over
and over and over and when I can't figure out
my life. Right, So I was like, Okay, I'll go
back to school. So I get into this program. And
this is new for me too, Like I too hadn't
been exposed to therapy right. Therapy was just now starting
to be talked about. So when I get into the program,
(07:41):
something within me was not connecting with the way that
I was being taught. I felt like it's from a
spiritual and a religious standpoint. I was like, ah, I
just doesn't really feel good. So I'm a reader. I
enjoy reading. They said, if you want to hide something
from me, you know what, like put it in a book.
I decided to read the books, which I haven't always done.
(08:03):
I read every single book. And then I've read every
single book. I was like, well, black folks are already
really good at coping, good at coping, so this is
all that you have to.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
It's in our DNA.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
And I think that that is very important to understand
that coping is in our DNA, and coping man means
that we know how to manage the symptoms. We know
how to keep pushing forward no matter what, right. And
I think as I was going through that, I was like, well,
this is if I can't help myself with this because
at the time I was working as VP of HR.
(08:39):
I had one kid at the time, Mary, just all
of the things that we all juggle, and I was like,
this isn't enough. So I started exploring. And I remember
I was taking one of my kids to the doctor,
and I was like, why don't we have like milestones
like these developmental milestones as adults, Like what does it
really look like for us to grow besides these external I.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Got on Google and I'd say, is there such thing as.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
Like adult development?
Speaker 3 (09:03):
And I came across this guy, Robert Kegan, and that's
where I learned that I was underdeveloped, underdeveloped from a
cognitive standpoint.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
And I started leaning more into his model.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
And I started reading the books and I started incorporating
it with everything that I was learning, and I was like, Okay,
I understand what mental health means. I understand what it
means to develop people. And then my mind just works
in a very weird way. I'm a thinker, Like I
started taking like the childhood development models, and then my
mind was like, this is a rent and repeat cycle.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
Like for example, when you look at one of the models.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
It's mistrust versus trust, and that is all about you
being able to have a solid foundation because you trust
the care get your caregiver.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
At some point that transitions you. You have to learn
to trust yourself. Now, I was saying, oh, you have
Like it's it's the same thing.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
But it's transitions from childhood to adulthood. So I started
using it on myself, figuring out how do I start
taking responsibility for my life, owning my choice. It's coupled
with this adult development framework that you had never heard of.
And I remember I saw the word capacity, and I'm saying,
I just start seeing capacity.
Speaker 4 (10:12):
And I had a girlfriend she was like, girl, don't.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
Nobody know what capacity mean. In fact, we don't even
feel like we have capacity. And I was like, well,
I'm just making my own thing because I knew what
it meant.
Speaker 4 (10:22):
So capacity is more about who do you become. Do
you have the ability to feel, stay present and stay
connected while also moving through life?
Speaker 2 (10:32):
With clarity.
Speaker 4 (10:33):
So when I started to understand that.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
I was like, oh my gosh, like this is how
you actually develop people, because what we're teaching from a
mental health space is still more so coping. I'm black,
as they get I know how to coop. I don't
need any more of that. I wanted to feel like
I could thrive. And as I was leaning more into it,
one of the things that we don't understand what survival
mode is.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
Survival mode is inherent.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Right.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
If you look at us culturally, survival mode, we end
up doubling down on survival mode. So it's already natural
for you to protect yourself as a human. If you
think about racism, classism, economic systemic underresource systems, all those things, right,
those things would make you double down even more. I
(11:21):
was like, so we already have two things working against us,
then you want me to cope more Like, that's not
going to ever position me out of survival mode. And
then I started getting into like how language affects your
sense of resiliency and boundaries are not something that we
learned in the program, right, It's like me coming up
with the word capacity, well, you know, using it right,
(11:43):
So I started doing the whole thing, like boundaries, I'm
gonna cut my family.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
I'm cut this, you know. But I felt so miserable.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
I was like, this can't be like I felt good,
like I felt good right.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
I was like, this feels good.
Speaker 4 (11:57):
And they're like, you know, everybody's over holiday.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
You know, your uncle gonna be your uncle, your your
daddy gonna be your dad. And I'm like, but you're
over here, like you feel like you're doing something because
you're exercising your worth and it looks like self respect,
but something is still not right within.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
And I was like, this, ain't it.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
So when I started leaning more into that model, and
then I started reading other books and I was like,
this isn't it. And then research will tell you that
when a tool leads you to avoidance, then it's no
longer effective. And I was like, what are we talking
about with boundaries? The goal in boundaries can never substitute
self trusts.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
So I just kept.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
Going and going and going and going in and while
using all of this stuff, and then I noticed that
I started getting clients that would be like, well, I
don't want to use a boundary, and then it's like,
oh my gosh, they said something that I was thinking,
or I would start getting a lot of people that
would say that I've been in therapy for a long time,
and while it's been able to do this for me,
like something is still missing. And that's what kept me
(12:59):
to keep going. And then I started getting more black women,
and I was like, yeah, because I was trying to
figure out how to reach more of us, because cancel culture, right,
because I kept attracting a different demographic, and then I
had these same stories.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
I was like, why do white people keep choosing me?
Speaker 4 (13:18):
I was like, they don't care. They just like this girl,
she knows something, She's intelligent.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
I'm gonna work with her because I'm trying to move
from point A to point B. So when I started
getting black women, I was like, Okay, let me try
the same framework.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Let's see if it works. And then I started hearing like.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
I feel a sense of inner piece, like I don't
feel like I have to protect my piece anymore.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
And I was like, you got it. I got it.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
But I feel the same thing because we see the
world and I, oh, my gosh. One of my favorite
sweatshirts that I wear weekly, it says protect your peace.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
Oh can be a starting point right, because everybody's working
from a different framework. But if that becomes your mantra
for doing life, you would have to ask yourself in
(14:20):
which way, in what ways may I be shrinking myself too?
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Oh my god, this is why y'all you have to
please click the link in Raquel's Instagram bio. She has
some digital resources that are amazing.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
One of the.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Things you said, there are people who come to you
who have been in therapy for years but feel like
something is missing. And maybe it is because all the
language we started learning and applying, But then you're like,
something is missing. And I almost was afraid to say
(15:10):
this publicly, but I'm gonna go head on and say it.
Therapy can help a present situation, a trauma, a transition, decisions,
you know, all kinds of things.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
But then it's like, Okay, I'm over it. Now what's next,
What's next? What's next?
Speaker 1 (15:38):
So therapy helps you cope, but I needed another avenue that.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
The other thing.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
I don't know what the title, pushed you forward to
the next level.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
The next thing because expansion healing versus coping, m healing
versus coping, and I know that.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Word healing is.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Another thing that we talk about healing, which I think
for me, it depends it is a journey.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Can therapy be a crutch? And who is it a crutch? To?
Speaker 3 (16:25):
Absolutely, therapy can be a crutch And let me because
I'm grateful for this opportunity right, and it gives me
a chance to further educate, because I think that the
more that you educate people, the more that you can
empower people. So if we go back to just the basics, right,
therapist are in place, because we expect people in general
(16:48):
to as you navigate life, you're going to experience transitory
issues that have the ability to plague.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Your mental health.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
What that means is if you go into a new job,
you move into a new position, you move to a
new city, you decide to get divorced, you enter into
a new relationship, you decide to have anything, any change
that you can possibly think of, you can expect for
your mental health to be impacted. And the reason why
I say, when we think mental health, how you think, feel,
(17:18):
and behave, all of those things are gonna be challenged.
Speaker 4 (17:21):
Our goal is.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
To help you feel in the gap so that you
feel like you can do life autonomously and independently. You
have to learn to trust yourself, Like, that's not what
we're there for.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
I think I have the question. So then the therapy
versus coaching.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
M hmm.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Maybe the person that's been in therapy, maybe it's the
coaching that they need to be Like, Okay.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Jump the hurdle. This is how you jump the hurdle.
But you got to jump the hurdle.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
It depends though, because not every professional is created equally, right, Like,
no matter what industry you're in, you're always gonna have
professionals that are really good at what they do and
then some that are so. Right, I am a therapist
and a coach, right, I could support people in both ways,
and then I know therapists that are really good that
have the ability to support people in both ways. I
(18:09):
think the thing that we forget therapists are humans, Like
we're coming in as we're navigating.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Our stuff, we're still healing, spiritual like all of those things.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
So even the questions that you get from a therapist, right,
it's not because it's scientific.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
It is usually a reflection.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Of their experience, their exposure, how they interpreted the knowledge
that they receive. All of that is in there, which
is why it's very complex. And why when we talk
about therapy, there's a termination period. Now, there may be
people that live with mental illnesses. There is a such
thing as a termination period, Like you're trained to get
(18:50):
rid of your clients.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Work, Yald, this is what I've been feeling, I think,
so listen.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
But in your defense, Michelle, what I would say is, especially.
Speaker 4 (19:04):
To people that look like you and.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
I, we do not want to be left behind.
Speaker 4 (19:08):
Right.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
So if you're saying and the main narrative is be
in therapy, do this, then therapy becomes goals. So I
think it's natural that people are staying in therapy longer
than what they should, including us, because we've come a
long way, right, and because we come a long way,
nobody wants to be left behind.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
Yes, So if you're.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
Saying that this is a success metric for me, feeling
good for me, not emotionally suppressing.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
Then why would I leave?
Speaker 2 (19:38):
But you still don't notice the.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Ways that you may be possibly shrinking in the process,
because then your therapist becomes because part of therapy, too
is you learning how to build your own community. The
same things that you can do with your therapist. It's
the same thing that you end up doing when you
have your trainer, you have your friend that you call
for this, you have your friend that you call for that.
Speaker 4 (19:57):
That's the same thing.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
But you learn to me, those these are the skills
that you should be learning in these so good, Thank
you so much. I'm gonna say.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
You've given me language, which I'm gonna go back to
the therapy language at a minute.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
But y'all, please, y'all, can y'all please indulge me. I
have to share a personal experience. I tried to keep
my personal experiences out of interviews unless it's a solo episode.
So y'all please indulge me. But this therapist too, I
was working with since the end of twenty eighteen when
I went through a state of psychosis. I was hospitalized
(20:38):
for depression in twenty eighteen. All this is going on
at the end of twenty eighteen, I literally when I
say lost my mind, I know what they're talking about,
to the point where I don't recall certain events.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Fast forward to twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Now, mind you, I've been doing so good in therapy
that I decided, especially in twenty twenty four, I was like, let.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Me take these tools.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
That I've been learning all these years, and let me
not try to call for every thing. I'm now in
a new I'm in a new Broadway show. And the
reason why I left a Broadway show in twenty eighteen
was because of the psychosist. And the doctor was like,
you cannot He told my people she can't work right. Yeah,
(21:30):
So me being on Broadway six years later as a
total testimony in itself. But I decided last year when
I got into the Broadway gig, I called my therapist
told her about it. She was amazing, but I think
the untethering I could feel like she stopped saying when
(21:54):
would you like to schedule another session? And I I
talked to her last week about something and she did
the same thing. She just said, let me know how
I can support you. But most in the beginning our
therapy sessions were Okay, when you I'm paraphrasy, she don't
(22:15):
say it like this, but when would you.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Like your next session to be?
Speaker 4 (22:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (22:20):
And she was I mean, she was like, Michelle, I
can cry right now because of your growth and your growth,
and just she was even I think things that I
was saying, and I was like, I wanted to ask,
I'm so.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Curious what did she see?
Speaker 1 (22:35):
What did she see? And or who did you see?
In twenty eighteen versus twenty twenty five. My molmost teary
because I know she saw a shell hurting person, a
traumatized person, all these things. But I noticed in this
last session she did not schedule another session. And I
(22:58):
think even based off of how I was answering the
questions or just I wanted clarity on something that was arising.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
In my soul again.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
But I was like, don't take it personal. I have
what it takes to get through this. I just needed
to talk to her to share about this experience and
am I okay?
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Basically, so she must have thought I was okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
To not schedule that next session, but if I could,
if I need she would if I needed it.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
But it wasn't the all right, let's get you on
the books.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Yeah, and you said that there is an expiration date
sometimes on.
Speaker 5 (23:40):
Yeah, because each person is is different, right, I think
that when you yeah, no, I think that that is
a powerful testimony.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
And congratulations to you for being able to share it,
because I do think that there is there's a lot
of purpose in people sharing their testimonials, right because a
lot of people do live with that shade of those
experiences when you start struggling with your mental health or
when your mental health is now turns into now, I'm
struggling with a mental illness.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
So I think that that's power.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Right, because I think the purpose of sharing pain is
to not necessarily build a community around pain, but to say, hey,
I see your pain. We're bound to experience pain, but
also can you call up people's power in the process.
And I think that the way that you just shared
your story right twenty eighteen to twenty twenty five, from
(24:38):
pain to power, that's what you just expressed to us.
And I would imagine that your therapist didn't say anything
because she's not the goat in your life, right like
you really are.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
You had these tough seasons.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
To be you know, when you put all of the
things into consideration, like who you are, being out and
the press, the media. Right twenty eighteen probably was just
a lot when you talk about it, just going going, going, going,
and then experiencing psychosis. She knew that you needed, not
necessarily her, She knew that you needed her education and
her training.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
She probably had a treatment.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
Plan, and that treatment plan determined what you all needed
to work on.
Speaker 4 (25:19):
And I think that that is really important. That's how
therapy should work.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
Oh now, I'm not saying it's not easy to depart
because there is a connection that happens.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
You're sharing your life with you. Because I like, she
can't even check on me, which I know is not ethical.
It is I don't even get no, it's been I
don't even and I referred other people to her and
I don't even get a text. But I was like, girl,
your fire, you're doing good. She ain't your partner, she
ain't your mama, she's not your sister.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
She y'all not in a relationship like that, But y'all
not in a relationship.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
She has to trust that she's done her job, and
then you have to trust that I don't have to
rely on her for everything. The goal is to know
that if I ever found myself challenging in a way
to where I no longer have the ability to even cope,
then I may have I may need to return, because
(26:16):
that option is always there. But it's not supposed to
be a lifetime sentence. Now, there are some people that
depending on Like we're talking in mental illness right because
I think that that's important because we use those words
interchangeable and it's.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Not mental health. It's not the same.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
It's mental ill it is not And I think, well,
I always say this, we destigmatize.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
The wrong thing.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
You should not be shame around having mental health because
we all have mental health.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Come on, like that to me does not be in
this self like we all have reproductive health.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Right is that an able? Just the same?
Speaker 3 (26:49):
Like it's like saying you have an arm. Why would
you There's no shame around having an arm. It would
be no, you would have shame around not having an arm,
right like? And mental illness is the thing that gets
overlooked in the process because that's where the shame lies. Now,
where the shame lies from a mental health perspective is struggle.
Is seeing this failure right versus no? Like as a human,
(27:12):
we expect you to feel like you're failing at life
because you're going to experience all of these transitions.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
And in the process, I always say that life is.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
Asking you one thing, who do you want to be
despite what I'm experiencing, despite what I have experience and
figuring out how do you not lose yourself? And if
you do lose yourself, because that's not abnormal to lose
yourself as a human because you are going through changes.
It's how do you start asking the questions to reflect
(27:42):
back who do I want to become? Because if we
look at basic human development, at some point we're all
going to look back over our lives with a sense
of integrity and despair and say.
Speaker 4 (27:52):
Did I live a life well lived? Or do you
end up having regret? And that does not change.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
Yeah, no matter what your circumstances are, no matter what
you look like like, which is why when the world
is in chaos, like we all can feel it, because
there are some very basic and common things about being
a human very good.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
So many gems drop from pain to power, How struggle
can be seen as failure and just the journey. I
guess just we just need more education so we can
use the right language. May I ask you about the
word trigger? Well, I'll ask you the first one.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
What is a trigger?
Speaker 3 (28:45):
So the way that I view trigger as more of
a clinical term these I think of trigger if you
think about someone that's been in the war, You think
about someone that has experienced sexual abuse, someone that may
have experienced sexual abuse, right if they hear the same
sounds of something that reminds them of that or the
(29:06):
recent la fires. Right, if someone smells fire and they
think that they're back in that situation. That's how I
think of a trigger, Not every day annoyance. Like something
that annoys you every day, that's not a trigger. And
that's why I think that that's so important because if
we made the distinction between this terminology, we could find
a balance with like really helping us as a society.
Speaker 4 (29:30):
Like triggers.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
I think of triggers is more like the things that
were traumatic to a person.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Not like, oh my dad talked.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
To me, he said something yesterday and it triggered me.
Did it trigger you or did it bother you? Because
those aren't the same things. Like triggers cause you to
like truly shut down to where you feel like you
can't even function to some degree. And that's again, is
the distinction between mental health and mental illness.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
It's like streams of struggling.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
So is a trigger the result of PTSD or is
that the same thing?
Speaker 2 (30:06):
Yes? Okay? So yes, trigger is.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
The form of PTSD, y'all, which is a clinical diagnosis
if I'm not mistaken, Yes, post traumatic stress disorder and
so if that is still something on the inside of
you in your mind, you can have a trigger based
off of that experience that led you to a PTSD.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Yes, okay, thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
So it's kind of like, remember, I don't know if
you remember when people said, stop saying you're OCD because
it's a real thing.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Yeah, yeah, it's a real thing. So you think we should.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Stop saying I'm triggered if when I'm just annoyed, bothered
or pissed off, I don't.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Think we should.
Speaker 4 (30:49):
I mean, because I get it, like when I'm kicking
it with like my friends.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
I mean, I may say, like, girl, I do not
have the capacity for that, right, But you have to
think that not every body is in the same boat
would have the same understanding of what these terms mean.
And that is more of the issue because we ended
we end up building a society that becomes very fragile,
(31:13):
and you don't have good mental well being if we
end up with a fragile society. More so, but like.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
And no, I mean, and I've heard you speak about that.
I've read that even about you saying that's those two words.
A fragile society. You know, Yes, we are a strong people.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
But maybe there are some areas like.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
We you said building building capacity, so that we're not
I guess, So is it emotionally fragile?
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Well, there is a lot of emotional fragility going.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
On, there is, I mean it there, it is there,
it is.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Oh my gosh, I feel like I need a part too,
because it's like, okay, emotional fragility in relationships, that's.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
A whole that's a whole topic because I see romantic relationships.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Okay, yeah, okay, I want to I want to pivot
back to the word trigger.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
If you have.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
A trigger, does that mean you're not healed?
Speaker 3 (32:27):
I think that that's going to be a very personal
question depending on the individual, right, Because if you were
to ask me that question personally, I would tell you know,
that does not mean that I'm healed, because one, I
don't see myself as broken. Number Two, I understand that
I'm not exempt from life's adversities, which means that it's
not abnormal for me to be triggered. So I'm not
making judgments about life's challenges or the way that they're
(32:51):
shaping me because I'm not making a judgment about the trigger.
Speaker 4 (32:55):
Right, So it's to me.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
That's a very personal question because you you will have
some therapists that will say you can never be healed.
I just don't believe that. I don't think that people
get the final say in terms of you'll never be here.
You just learned to live, you just learned to work
with life, Like I don't believe. I don't subscribe to that.
Speaker 4 (33:19):
So it just that it's a.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Very individual.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
There.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
I can acknowledge when I'm struggling, like I can acknowledge
when I'm struggling, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm broken.
And I think that that's where we went wrong too
in the mental health space, Like we are not medical professionals,
Like in fact, textbook says that mental health professionals are
not experts in mental health. Who's the expert then, because
(33:51):
you got to think mental health is complex all of
the things that are shaping you, because science is not
science tries to find like truth validity in all those things.
But you got nature, nurture, genies, you got all these
factors playing a part.
Speaker 4 (34:08):
We do our best to figure out how to support.
Speaker 3 (34:11):
You based off of the information that you give, but
we're not necessarily experts in mental health.
Speaker 4 (34:17):
Right, which is why you.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Had the DS and you have all these guides and
these frameworks, right.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
But to say that I'm an expert in mental health,
we mean that I know how Michelle should think, feel,
and behave in every situation. And that's not necessarily true
because I expect Michelle to exhibit maladaptive behaviors just based
off of her growing, changing life, and I expect her
to have adaptive behaviors. So it's we're not experts in
(34:44):
that sense. I see what we understand human development. We
understand the risks that are associated with certain things that
you may experience, and then we have the skills to
help navigate you through those days.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
Okay, So I guess your wheels.
Speaker 4 (35:03):
Are going like this because that just blew my mind.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Like the mental health therapists are not the mental health experts.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
So then I'm like, well, okay, well then I do know.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
A therapist cannot diagnose, only a psychiatrist can.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
It depends on the state.
Speaker 3 (35:17):
Like I can die, I can diagnose here in the
state of Texas. Now I cannot give you know, medication
has to go through a cycle. Yeah, but I can diagnose,
So it depends on the state. In Texas.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
We can diagnose. Amazing.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
That's something funny me because now those of us that
have been in therapy now we think we can diagnose,
but like, oh, I think you have.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
So and so.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
I think you're giving bipolar just a tingch. No, this
has been exciting, so exciting for me, mind blown, absolutely
absolutely amazing. I do want us to maybe get her
(36:08):
capacity journal and.
Speaker 3 (36:10):
Everybody human development, because there are eight you go to
the eighty questions, so it's eight different themes and it's
all human development.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
Absolutely all right, We've y'all, we've got to do that,
because now that's a new word we that we can
annoy her.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
With and add to our our therapy language. I don't
have the capacity I'm protecting. Listen, Ercaul. If I was
your friend, I would probably just bully you and say
stuff like that. No, I'm just planning. I promise you.
(36:47):
I promise you.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
I am because I actually do respect your credentials. And
there are some things that I that have probably been
even that were still indoctrinated in me by what I
thought mental.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Health is about.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
And deconstructing some of those things, and I'm really really
happy that you took some time for us today.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
There are some words y'all that we use.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
A lot, boundaries, triggers, self care and the new ornament
on the tree, gas lighting, and narcissist.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
But what's so unfair though, Raquel is you cannot there
it really happens.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
The gas lighting happens.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
And oh that's the other thing we be diagnosing narcissists
when it was just a bad breakup.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
No, it's a thing I think until you probably have
really encountered a nist. Here's the thing that gets me
with the narcissists, right, Like when you hear people say
I survived like a narcissist, I don't take mental illness
likely right. So to me, narcissm is a mental is
someone that really struggs.
Speaker 4 (38:00):
Yes, it's not like it's a diagnosis. So when people
use it lightly like they knew what.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
They were doing, I'm like, well, did you say that
you survive your dad who was an alcoholic?
Speaker 2 (38:11):
People?
Speaker 3 (38:12):
Because you know, all those are addictions, those are real
things that people struggle with. So as much as you
can say that where they are intentionally trying to do this,
intentionally trying to manipulate you, there are some things that
are beyond their control. And that's when you know that
you truly understand the difference between mental health versus mental illness,
(38:33):
because we all may exhibit traits of narcissism, right, but
to actually have a diagnosis of narcissism, it's an illness.
Speaker 4 (38:44):
Like it's an illness. It's like, I don't know any
other way, it's an illness.
Speaker 3 (38:51):
Now it sucks that if you actually have experience dealing
with a narcissistic person. Right, but are we really gonna
walk around because to me, that is what creates shade,
Like I think that you're just as guilty for calling
out someone that may live with a mental illness because
(39:13):
more of the connection, like the community, people, women, relationships,
getting stuff, it gets really tricky. Right, So it's like
you knew what you were doing to me, Like, no,
like I caught my own issue.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Yes, yes, I don't know if this is true, and
I don't I don't intend to dwell on the topic
of narcissism much longer. I was told that we either
we all have narcissistic traits trades.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
That ye, true, But because it's ego, a lot of
it is ego grandy, I say, like when you get
out of on the stage. Shit, oh like there's probably
some narcissistic traits coming out of you because you've got
to feel like that girl when you get out there.
Speaker 4 (39:50):
Right, Like, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
So we all have trades, Okay, we all have traits,
we all exhibit traits.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
Okay, absolutely, we all made.
Speaker 4 (39:59):
Exhibit traits of all all of the things.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Right. Like, That's why you're is.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
If you're having a bad day, it might look like depression,
but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's diagnosable, right, So,
which is why the DSM breaks those things down based
on the biggest thing that people miss with diagnosis is
the frequency of those things. Okay, that's the thing that
people miss. It's the frequency that you're seeing these behaviors.
(40:26):
If I have five bad days doesn't necessarily mean that
I am depressed. It could mean that I'm under developed.
The situation goes beyond my ability to truly cope. That's
why you have the DSM because it's a framework. But
it's not just based off of the symptoms. It's symptoms
(40:46):
plus the duration of those symptoms. So it's like three
to five symptoms for example, plus duration, and we.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Tend to skip that part of it. On one of
my podcasts, Raquel, I thought I was and it was
my iron was just real low. See.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
My ferretine was in the single digits. Iron was like
about over sixty five points below the average of what
iron should be. And I was like, I know I'm
(41:26):
not falling back in no depression. I wouldn't call the
psychiatrist and all this. And I was like, I feel
like I'm sleeping with the wave.
Speaker 3 (41:33):
And that's why we're not experts health right there, you
just gave the perfect exam because we're too complex. It's mind, body,
and soul, it's all of those things.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
Oh and I was like, I think, I think I'm
gonna need medication.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
I got the prescription.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
Filled and then I went and got some labs done, Raquel, and.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
We found out it was low iron.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
And was there a personal situation I was dealing with
last year.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
Due to a decision that I had to make. Yes,
But I was like, I got the.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
Tools, like this shouldn't be like keeping me into bed,
this shouldn't be making me feel like I got I
got a weighted blanket on me.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
It was just low iron, you know, it really was.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
And so I was encouraging people before you even I
shouldn't say before, make that a part of your process
to getting your blood work done and making sure it's
just maybe you know, in my case it was low iron,
or in some other people's cases could be some hormonal
imbalances which still can lead to a mental health exactly
(42:49):
illness possibly.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
But again, I'm not the doctor.
Speaker 4 (42:54):
You sound like one.
Speaker 3 (42:55):
I'm just well, it sounds like you just go ahead
and go to a therapist.
Speaker 4 (43:00):
You got it.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
I wanted to go to school for psychology, and this
is a public confession that got accepted into a university,
and had I finished, I would actually probably be in
my almost first year of probably getting the masters.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
But I know, I think the best professionals are the
people that have had real via experience.
Speaker 2 (43:26):
It.
Speaker 3 (43:26):
It's like when you started to hear like that wisdom
come through. There was this a black psychologist, doctor Joseph White.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
I love him. He talks about I love oh, I
love him. His name is doctor Joseph White.
Speaker 3 (43:38):
There's a quote in one of his books he says
that information isn't always knowledge, and knowledge isn't always wisdom.
And I remember it stuck with me, right and just
talking about lived experience, like you have a lot of information.
We have a lot of information today, right, and it
is knowledge, but it doesn't always convert to wisdom. When
we start talking about discernment, discermon to say, like I
(44:01):
know that I'm making a major decision right now, but
I don't think.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
I'm depressed, Like I feel like I have.
Speaker 3 (44:07):
The tools, Like that's wisdom, that's speaking okay, right, And
no education can account for that.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
No education can account is a lived experience. It was live. Yes,
I'll take it. I'll take it, but I will take it.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
And I don't know if you're if you are ever
doing like a master class a conference, whether it's in
person or virtually, I will be one of the attendees
and one of the students, y'all. In the beginning, and
I'm gonna let her go. In the beginning of our conversation,
(44:47):
we were discussing how just you know, within five months
your life has changed, and how you had to build capacity,
building build incapacity. And I even I read that you said,
I'm paraphrasing, Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
Did I read where you're You're.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
Almost like you were worried about what what to say,
or I don't want to say this the wrong way
because your name has gotten much larger.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
We know your name, we know your voice, and now
you're feeling like WHOA, I don't feel that.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
I was on vacation and I was with my family
and we we say all the things right, and I look, I.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
Said that to my mama at a funeral. I said, Mama,
Oh God, So you.
Speaker 4 (45:43):
Know, I do feel myself teeter and tired.
Speaker 3 (45:45):
Part of me wants to say, I'm going to protect
my piece and my mental health because walk into this,
because I understand that there's a piece.
Speaker 4 (45:54):
That you give.
Speaker 6 (45:54):
Because I'm even telling my us, don't be quiet. We're
in the airport, like people don't tell you that they know.
Oh you're right, Like you may have somebody because there
was an airport. This lady was like, girl, this must
be a sign from God. I need to get your
phone number.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
She was just And you.
Speaker 3 (46:08):
Know, you have people that say, I'm sure you're used
to it, right, but this is new for me.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
Right, like in the restaurant with my family and they're like.
Speaker 3 (46:15):
Cauk you And there are some people that won't say anything,
and you're just with your family you're not thinking about.
I was actually telling my friend this morning, it's like
grief of an old life.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
And then it's part of me that's like do I
want how much do I.
Speaker 4 (46:31):
Want to step into the new life? So it's I mean,
and I'm there too. That's why I say capacity is.
Speaker 3 (46:38):
This thing that you build and you rebuild over time
that asks you to come back to yourself.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
Yes, thank you for helping us, even especially those of
us that have been in therapy a while.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
Giving us.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
More tools for the tool belt. And then I think
too for people who are curious about this world of
going to therapy or you you are a professional certified
coach as well, which, by the way, those therapy and
coaching is two different things, if I'm not mistaken. But
(47:17):
thank you so much for your voice. Thank you for
your time today. I'm excited to just I'm sitting back
just like excited for you, even though have empathy for
what you're sharing regarding your life is changing and it's
changing before our eyes. And that's a sacrifice that I know,
(47:38):
I see and I feel. Thank you, Yeah, thank you,
and you you will have a time where you're gonna
you're gonna find the right places you can go into people,
you know, where you can still be in public and
cut up a little bit.
Speaker 2 (47:55):
Hopefully I don't isolate.
Speaker 4 (47:57):
That's what I'm like, you know, you can't.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
I can't unknow what I know now right.
Speaker 3 (48:01):
The part of me is like he text me, He
was like, hey, did you want to you know, just
go and hang out.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
We had pool brings around. I was like, yeah, because
it's gonna be back here. I know. I know because
there are those of us.
Speaker 1 (48:13):
Who we didn't choose for people to walk up to
us to get to know.
Speaker 2 (48:20):
We just feel like we're just out here doing the
Lord's work.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
Right, Yeah, I's it is still weird, and I'm going
to use the world.
Speaker 2 (48:29):
It's uncomfortable for me.
Speaker 3 (48:32):
Sometimes I could imagine, like I would imagine, here's the
thing though, what I'm what I what I tell myself
again if I'm gonna walk this way, But I mean.
Speaker 1 (48:41):
Uncomfortable, not because y'all, not because I'm not grateful for.
Speaker 2 (48:49):
But the sometimes.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
It catches you off guard and you're like, I was
just trying to get somebod Soirelli sticks.
Speaker 3 (49:00):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, I think that because I can't
unknow what I know, right, and I always talk about
like victimhood and autonomy. I am choosing if I continue
down this path. I am choosing.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
Now.
Speaker 3 (49:20):
That doesn't mean that I won't have days where I
feel like I am losing a part of me to
walk into this space. But am I going to be
victim to all of it? And that's the biggest difference,
because I don't have to do this right. If you
continue to do it, you don't define the moment. I
(49:42):
play a part in that. So a lot of this
is radical acceptance and radical responsibility. So and I am
teeter tottering right now, but I know what it sounds
like to be a victim or to be at the
effect of life circumstances. And at some point I'll I
have to say, like, all right, you're gonna walk completely
into this, which is another thing, right, because it's like obedience, right,
(50:06):
So it's like, I know I'm gonna walk in this,
but you're not gonna be a victim.
Speaker 1 (50:10):
To it, Raquel, if I was your therapist, I will
tell you right now, let me know how I can
support you.
Speaker 2 (50:16):
I'm so proud look at you. You already know I'm
just going.
Speaker 3 (50:23):
You just let's go get you just go get a
life coaching certification.
Speaker 2 (50:27):
You can just go get your life coaching certification. Listen,
I actually do you have to do? I do use it?
Are you am? I am?
Speaker 1 (50:39):
I am Valerie Burton's company called Coaching and Positive Psychology.
I'm a sister out of Georgia. She is dynamic, someone
that John Maxwell uses a lot. Okay, you probably know
her face when you see her, but yeah, I am
a certified certified.
Speaker 2 (51:00):
Life coach here. So that is awesome. And I can
see it. I can hear it. Yeah, I can see it.
Speaker 3 (51:07):
I can hear I think a lot of it's it's
your experience, right, it's your spirit, it's your soul.
Speaker 2 (51:11):
And those are the things that people end up feeling.
Speaker 3 (51:18):
This article that they written that that was written by
a Yale professor yesterday. That's what I'm still like in
my feelings about because the way that he wrote that article,
it was so.
Speaker 1 (51:28):
Rich, like it's.
Speaker 3 (51:33):
No, it's out I put it, it's in my link,
and my breaks it down. Yes, he breaks it down
in terms of what people are responding to for me.
Speaker 4 (51:43):
And then he even goes.
Speaker 3 (51:44):
To say she's saying she has privileged because she is
a black woman. Because she does understand the harder realities
of racism and all those other things. So I can
say what white people cannot say. But it's still does
hasn't changed the truth whether a white person is saying
it or not. Maybe people can digest what I'm seeing
(52:05):
a little bit more. But he says, and she does
it in a common sensical way.
Speaker 2 (52:10):
Yes, Oh my gosh, y'all.
Speaker 1 (52:12):
The article is called the Return of Mental Health ass Capacity.
Speaker 2 (52:17):
Raquel Hopkins viral rise may reveal, Oh my gosh, may reveal.
Speaker 4 (52:22):
It was good, it made me cry, it made me y'all.
Speaker 2 (52:25):
This says, it's revealing.
Speaker 1 (52:27):
This is what it is, a public craving for strength
over fragility. Amen, this is amazing. I'm excited about your journey. However,
I can help and support again.
Speaker 2 (52:39):
I'm gonna be.
Speaker 1 (52:40):
One of the first students in the class or the
first person at the conference with my iPad, my physical
piece of paper and pen. I'm there, Raquel, thank you
so much. How can we find you?
Speaker 3 (52:55):
I am on Instagram, so it's Raquaeil Underscore the underscore
capacity expert. I'm also on TikTok, but I'm more present
on Instagram, and I know a few people have found
me on LinkedIn and it's just Raquail Hopkins there.
Speaker 1 (53:11):
Yeah, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (53:15):
I'm excited we will see you soon. Thank you for
checking in, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 (53:20):
It was an honor, It was a pleasure to have
this conversation with you.
Speaker 2 (53:26):
She's gonna have to be a resident therapist and coach.
We'll figure all that out a little later.
Speaker 1 (53:34):
I think what I am loving most about this conversation
is that it will have us thinking beyond what we're
learning even on social media. And I know that social
media is actually opening up the door for people to
(53:55):
even want to think about going to therapy, for people
to even want to know what is it? Why is
everybody talking about the state of mental health, and also
how we get mental health versus mental illness mixed up.
(54:20):
Everybody has mental health, but not everybody has mental illness.
I have been saying that for probably twelve years or more.
I'm really excited to continue to expand this conversation even
beyond what I've learned in my years of going to
(54:41):
therapy and retreats in everything quote unquote self care. So
I'm not going to say too much more other than
let's continue to think about things more.
Speaker 2 (54:56):
And how about.
Speaker 1 (54:57):
This, take care of you. If you notice that you're
not filling your best, your mood has just been up
and down for far too long, or you just don't
have language for how you're feeling, I would encourage you
to pursue a therapist, to pursue some counseling, and to
(55:20):
get some amazing friends around you as well. All Right,
y'all already know I'm gonna champion that. I'm gonna champion
that all day long. Okay, all right, thank y'all so
much for tuning in to another amazing episode of Checking In.
Speaker 2 (55:35):
I love you, guys.
Speaker 1 (55:36):
I cannot do this without your support, and I cannot
do this without y'all constantly downloading these episodes and sharing
them also with the people you love. We'll talk again soon.
(56:17):
Checking In with Michelle Williams is a production of iHeartRadio
and The Black Effect. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
Welcome to Checking In with Michelle Williams, a production of
iHeartRadio and The Black Effect. My next guest is very challenging.
She challenges the words like triggers, gaslighting, and even the
(00:23):
word narcissist. If you want to know what I'm talking about,
stay locked. We've got an amazing episode with Raquel Hopkins,
also known as the Capacity Expert. Y'all, we have Raquel
Hopkins Capacity Expert, certified coach, licensed therapist. We have to
(00:46):
say licensed because everybody would an opinion a license, including me,
but I do filter them through a licensed therapist. I
am so happy to have Raquel Hopkins also known as
Raquel Underscore, the Underscore Capacity Underscore Expert. And you were
(01:08):
just dropping something about the word capacity and how you
followed through on something where I might be shocked that you.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Were walking through.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Was it fear because we might think a therapist cannot
have fear. You're trained to teach us how to navigate
through fear. And once you got through the fear, five
months later, we're here knowing your name.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Yeah, but that's how capacity works, right Like, It's this
process of you continuously stretching and expanding and finding ways
to strengthen yourself and that process doesn't stop. So I'm
just liking all Like today, I'm actually having a really
emotional day, like and all of that represents capacity, right
(01:59):
because you know, for me, it's like all of God's
glory and like, I mean, I'm educated, right, Like I
have several degrees, a lot of letters behind my name,
but I know it's not I.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
See them NBA, ms, PCC, LPC. Okay, I'm sorry. Go ahead, Yeah, no,
you're good. I'm going to follow your lead.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
No, absolutely, absolutely, I want to just share with you.
I started talking about this topic of mental health on accident.
In twenty thirteen. I was doing an interview promoting a
Broadway musical that I was touring in called Fellow, and
somehow we got on a topic of depression and I
(02:45):
just blurreded out like, hey, I've been struggling with it
or it's something that's a part of my journey and Raquel,
I did not think that it would be a part
of the interview, you know how they can edit stuff out.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
No, it was. It became a focal point of the interview.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
It went everywhere, kind of like how you're feeling your name,
You just this amazing interview with Essence that you've done
all the morning shows. So imagine something that you said,
Raquel is everywhere, and I'm like, lord, what.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Did I just do?
Speaker 1 (03:22):
I just devulge something that normally people in my world
probably should keep to themselves because I don't want to
be seen as a liability a problem.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Can she show up? Is she depressed?
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Or I don't want when somebody looks at me, I
wonder if she depressed?
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Like I was, like, what did I do? Been in therapy?
Speaker 1 (03:45):
But then when I look back at being in therapy
since around tooth between twenty ten and twelve, I can't
remember because that time period was a blur, and I
just do remember going to therapy to tell on people
versus what you have been discussing about therapy. You gotta
(04:05):
do the work and not just go go to therapy.
That's something that I was reading in your interview with Essence,
and I want to share with you my journey.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
How I could I.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Feel like I could have handed I could handle you
now as my therapist versus or I could have maybe
I needed someone like you back then to be like
how long.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Are you gonna come in here? And talking about everybody else.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
It's a unique way of doing that though, like what
I'm with my clients, And that's the thing because you
can see these little videos, right, and it's it's to
get people's attention to listen to what I'm saying.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
But you can't.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
I always tell people you have to.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Acknowledge and validate where people are in order to even
be able to shift them.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
So ten sessions, like and I was like, I just
need now ten sessions.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
I probably could have did ten sessions. Are you talking
about somebody else?
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Because I was like, all right, now I'm yo, Like
tell me, like what's your goal of therapy?
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Like why are you here?
Speaker 3 (05:09):
I said it like that I wouldn't be like, oh
you underdeveloped. You don't have to go vaccine for even therapy,
Like never told you that.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Listen. But I became acquainted with you.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
I think I think what spoke to me was something
that you were talking about triggers and boundaries.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
And I pressed follow, I said, she is talking my talk.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
And I was so glad because you, as a black
woman being a therapist talking about topics that kind of
there we're starting to talk about the more in our families.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
My mother sent me a video of you not knowing.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
But I didn't want to be tach me no, no,
but I was like, mom, this is great. I didn't
want to bust her bubble and be like by Saulas already,
so I just let her be great and you know,
send me all the videos.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
But I was so excited to get that video.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
But I there are sometimes where I felt, like people
have told me in our community, it don't take all that,
we don't need therapy. Therapy doesn't therapy makes you weaker?
You self aware?
Speaker 2 (06:25):
What is all that like?
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Just grinds my gears a little bit? Yes, So I
was so endeared to you. It's who you are and
just from your clips. So I'm hearing you say there's
more to you than the clips, which I totally agree with.
But we need your voice. We absolutely need your voice.
(06:52):
When you say the word capacity, what does that mean.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Well, let me get some context because capacity is actually
rooted in adult development. So when I decided to leave
my full time job right and get into this mental
health space.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
I didn't really know what I was doing right.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
I just knew that I was unfulfilled where I was like,
I had went through that phase of you checked all
of the boxes and now it's like, what's next for you?
Speaker 2 (07:17):
And I needed a backup plan.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
And I always tell people that I have edge decrastination,
so I can go back to school over and over
and over and over and when I can't figure out
my life. Right, So I was like, Okay, I'll go
back to school. So I get into this program. And
this is new for me too, Like I too hadn't
been exposed to therapy right. Therapy was just now starting
to be talked about. So when I get into the program,
(07:41):
something within me was not connecting with the way that
I was being taught. I felt like it's from a
spiritual and a religious standpoint. I was like, ah, I
just doesn't really feel good. So I'm a reader. I
enjoy reading. They said, if you want to hide something
from me, you know what, like put it in a book.
I decided to read the books, which I haven't always done.
(08:03):
I read every single book. And then I've read every
single book. I was like, well, black folks are already
really good at coping, good at coping, so this is
all that you have to.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
It's in our DNA.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
And I think that that is very important to understand
that coping is in our DNA, and coping man means
that we know how to manage the symptoms. We know
how to keep pushing forward no matter what, right. And
I think as I was going through that, I was like, well,
this is if I can't help myself with this because
at the time I was working as VP of HR.
(08:39):
I had one kid at the time, Mary, just all
of the things that we all juggle, and I was like,
this isn't enough. So I started exploring. And I remember
I was taking one of my kids to the doctor,
and I was like, why don't we have like milestones
like these developmental milestones as adults, Like what does it
really look like for us to grow besides these external I.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Got on Google and I'd say, is there such thing as.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
Like adult development?
Speaker 3 (09:03):
And I came across this guy, Robert Kegan, and that's
where I learned that I was underdeveloped, underdeveloped from a
cognitive standpoint.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
And I started leaning more into his model.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
And I started reading the books and I started incorporating
it with everything that I was learning, and I was like, Okay,
I understand what mental health means. I understand what it
means to develop people. And then my mind just works
in a very weird way. I'm a thinker, Like I
started taking like the childhood development models, and then my
mind was like, this is a rent and repeat cycle.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
Like for example, when you look at one of the models.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
It's mistrust versus trust, and that is all about you
being able to have a solid foundation because you trust
the care get your caregiver.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
At some point that transitions you. You have to learn
to trust yourself. Now, I was saying, oh, you have
Like it's it's the same thing.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
But it's transitions from childhood to adulthood. So I started
using it on myself, figuring out how do I start
taking responsibility for my life, owning my choice. It's coupled
with this adult development framework that you had never heard of.
And I remember I saw the word capacity, and I'm saying,
I just start seeing capacity.
Speaker 4 (10:12):
And I had a girlfriend she was like, girl, don't.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
Nobody know what capacity mean. In fact, we don't even
feel like we have capacity. And I was like, well,
I'm just making my own thing because I knew what
it meant.
Speaker 4 (10:22):
So capacity is more about who do you become. Do
you have the ability to feel, stay present and stay
connected while also moving through life?
Speaker 2 (10:32):
With clarity.
Speaker 4 (10:33):
So when I started to understand that.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
I was like, oh my gosh, like this is how
you actually develop people, because what we're teaching from a
mental health space is still more so coping. I'm black,
as they get I know how to coop. I don't
need any more of that. I wanted to feel like
I could thrive. And as I was leaning more into it,
one of the things that we don't understand what survival
mode is.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
Survival mode is inherent.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Right.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
If you look at us culturally, survival mode, we end
up doubling down on survival mode. So it's already natural
for you to protect yourself as a human. If you
think about racism, classism, economic systemic underresource systems, all those things, right,
those things would make you double down even more. I
(11:21):
was like, so we already have two things working against us,
then you want me to cope more Like, that's not
going to ever position me out of survival mode. And
then I started getting into like how language affects your
sense of resiliency and boundaries are not something that we
learned in the program, right, It's like me coming up
with the word capacity, well, you know, using it right,
(11:43):
So I started doing the whole thing, like boundaries, I'm
gonna cut my family.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
I'm cut this, you know. But I felt so miserable.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
I was like, this can't be like I felt good,
like I felt good right.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
I was like, this feels good.
Speaker 4 (11:57):
And they're like, you know, everybody's over holiday.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
You know, your uncle gonna be your uncle, your your
daddy gonna be your dad. And I'm like, but you're
over here, like you feel like you're doing something because
you're exercising your worth and it looks like self respect,
but something is still not right within.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
And I was like, this, ain't it.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
So when I started leaning more into that model, and
then I started reading other books and I was like,
this isn't it. And then research will tell you that
when a tool leads you to avoidance, then it's no
longer effective. And I was like, what are we talking
about with boundaries? The goal in boundaries can never substitute
self trusts.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
So I just kept.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
Going and going and going and going in and while
using all of this stuff, and then I noticed that
I started getting clients that would be like, well, I
don't want to use a boundary, and then it's like,
oh my gosh, they said something that I was thinking,
or I would start getting a lot of people that
would say that I've been in therapy for a long time,
and while it's been able to do this for me,
like something is still missing. And that's what kept me
(12:59):
to keep going. And then I started getting more black women,
and I was like, yeah, because I was trying to
figure out how to reach more of us, because cancel culture, right,
because I kept attracting a different demographic, and then I
had these same stories.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
I was like, why do white people keep choosing me?
Speaker 4 (13:18):
I was like, they don't care. They just like this girl,
she knows something, She's intelligent.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
I'm gonna work with her because I'm trying to move
from point A to point B. So when I started
getting black women, I was like, Okay, let me try
the same framework.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Let's see if it works. And then I started hearing like.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
I feel a sense of inner piece, like I don't
feel like I have to protect my piece anymore.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
And I was like, you got it. I got it.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
But I feel the same thing because we see the
world and I, oh, my gosh. One of my favorite
sweatshirts that I wear weekly, it says protect your peace.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
Oh can be a starting point right, because everybody's working
from a different framework. But if that becomes your mantra
for doing life, you would have to ask yourself in
(14:20):
which way, in what ways may I be shrinking myself too?
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Oh my god, this is why y'all you have to
please click the link in Raquel's Instagram bio. She has
some digital resources that are amazing.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
One of the.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Things you said, there are people who come to you
who have been in therapy for years but feel like
something is missing. And maybe it is because all the
language we started learning and applying, But then you're like,
something is missing. And I almost was afraid to say
(15:10):
this publicly, but I'm gonna go head on and say it.
Therapy can help a present situation, a trauma, a transition, decisions,
you know, all kinds of things.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
But then it's like, Okay, I'm over it. Now what's next,
What's next? What's next?
Speaker 1 (15:38):
So therapy helps you cope, but I needed another avenue that.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
The other thing.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
I don't know what the title, pushed you forward to
the next level.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
The next thing because expansion healing versus coping, m healing
versus coping, and I know that.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Word healing is.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Another thing that we talk about healing, which I think
for me, it depends it is a journey.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Can therapy be a crutch? And who is it a crutch? To?
Speaker 3 (16:25):
Absolutely, therapy can be a crutch And let me because
I'm grateful for this opportunity right, and it gives me
a chance to further educate, because I think that the
more that you educate people, the more that you can
empower people. So if we go back to just the basics, right,
therapist are in place, because we expect people in general
(16:48):
to as you navigate life, you're going to experience transitory
issues that have the ability to plague.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Your mental health.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
What that means is if you go into a new job,
you move into a new position, you move to a
new city, you decide to get divorced, you enter into
a new relationship, you decide to have anything, any change
that you can possibly think of, you can expect for
your mental health to be impacted. And the reason why
I say, when we think mental health, how you think, feel,
(17:18):
and behave, all of those things are gonna be challenged.
Speaker 4 (17:21):
Our goal is.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
To help you feel in the gap so that you
feel like you can do life autonomously and independently. You
have to learn to trust yourself, Like, that's not what
we're there for.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
I think I have the question. So then the therapy
versus coaching.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
M hmm.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Maybe the person that's been in therapy, maybe it's the
coaching that they need to be Like, Okay.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Jump the hurdle. This is how you jump the hurdle.
But you got to jump the hurdle.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
It depends though, because not every professional is created equally, right, Like,
no matter what industry you're in, you're always gonna have
professionals that are really good at what they do and
then some that are so. Right, I am a therapist
and a coach, right, I could support people in both ways,
and then I know therapists that are really good that
have the ability to support people in both ways. I
(18:09):
think the thing that we forget therapists are humans, Like
we're coming in as we're navigating.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Our stuff, we're still healing, spiritual like all of those things.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
So even the questions that you get from a therapist, right,
it's not because it's scientific.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
It is usually a reflection.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Of their experience, their exposure, how they interpreted the knowledge
that they receive. All of that is in there, which
is why it's very complex. And why when we talk
about therapy, there's a termination period. Now, there may be
people that live with mental illnesses. There is a such
thing as a termination period, Like you're trained to get
(18:50):
rid of your clients.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Work, Yald, this is what I've been feeling, I think,
so listen.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
But in your defense, Michelle, what I would say is, especially.
Speaker 4 (19:04):
To people that look like you and.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
I, we do not want to be left behind.
Speaker 4 (19:08):
Right.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
So if you're saying and the main narrative is be
in therapy, do this, then therapy becomes goals. So I
think it's natural that people are staying in therapy longer
than what they should, including us, because we've come a
long way, right, and because we come a long way,
nobody wants to be left behind.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
Yes, So if you're.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
Saying that this is a success metric for me, feeling
good for me, not emotionally suppressing.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
Then why would I leave?
Speaker 2 (19:38):
But you still don't notice the.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Ways that you may be possibly shrinking in the process,
because then your therapist becomes because part of therapy, too
is you learning how to build your own community. The
same things that you can do with your therapist. It's
the same thing that you end up doing when you
have your trainer, you have your friend that you call
for this, you have your friend that you call for that.
Speaker 4 (19:57):
That's the same thing.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
But you learn to me, those these are the skills
that you should be learning in these so good, Thank
you so much. I'm gonna say.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
You've given me language, which I'm gonna go back to
the therapy language at a minute.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
But y'all, please, y'all, can y'all please indulge me. I
have to share a personal experience. I tried to keep
my personal experiences out of interviews unless it's a solo episode.
So y'all please indulge me. But this therapist too, I
was working with since the end of twenty eighteen when
I went through a state of psychosis. I was hospitalized
(20:38):
for depression in twenty eighteen. All this is going on
at the end of twenty eighteen, I literally when I
say lost my mind, I know what they're talking about,
to the point where I don't recall certain events.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Fast forward to twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Now, mind you, I've been doing so good in therapy
that I decided, especially in twenty twenty four, I was like, let.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Me take these tools.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
That I've been learning all these years, and let me
not try to call for every thing. I'm now in
a new I'm in a new Broadway show. And the
reason why I left a Broadway show in twenty eighteen
was because of the psychosist. And the doctor was like,
you cannot He told my people she can't work right. Yeah,
(21:30):
So me being on Broadway six years later as a
total testimony in itself. But I decided last year when
I got into the Broadway gig, I called my therapist
told her about it. She was amazing, but I think
the untethering I could feel like she stopped saying when
(21:54):
would you like to schedule another session? And I I
talked to her last week about something and she did
the same thing. She just said, let me know how
I can support you. But most in the beginning our
therapy sessions were Okay, when you I'm paraphrasy, she don't
(22:15):
say it like this, but when would you.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Like your next session to be?
Speaker 4 (22:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (22:20):
And she was I mean, she was like, Michelle, I
can cry right now because of your growth and your growth,
and just she was even I think things that I
was saying, and I was like, I wanted to ask,
I'm so.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Curious what did she see?
Speaker 1 (22:35):
What did she see? And or who did you see?
In twenty eighteen versus twenty twenty five. My molmost teary
because I know she saw a shell hurting person, a
traumatized person, all these things. But I noticed in this
last session she did not schedule another session. And I
(22:58):
think even based off of how I was answering the
questions or just I wanted clarity on something that was arising.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
In my soul again.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
But I was like, don't take it personal. I have
what it takes to get through this. I just needed
to talk to her to share about this experience and
am I okay?
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Basically, so she must have thought I was okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
To not schedule that next session, but if I could,
if I need she would if I needed it.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
But it wasn't the all right, let's get you on
the books.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Yeah, and you said that there is an expiration date
sometimes on.
Speaker 5 (23:40):
Yeah, because each person is is different, right, I think
that when you yeah, no, I think that that is
a powerful testimony.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
And congratulations to you for being able to share it,
because I do think that there is there's a lot
of purpose in people sharing their testimonials, right because a
lot of people do live with that shade of those
experiences when you start struggling with your mental health or
when your mental health is now turns into now, I'm
struggling with a mental illness.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
So I think that that's power.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Right, because I think the purpose of sharing pain is
to not necessarily build a community around pain, but to say, hey,
I see your pain. We're bound to experience pain, but
also can you call up people's power in the process.
And I think that the way that you just shared
your story right twenty eighteen to twenty twenty five, from
(24:38):
pain to power, that's what you just expressed to us.
And I would imagine that your therapist didn't say anything
because she's not the goat in your life, right like
you really are.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
You had these tough seasons.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
To be you know, when you put all of the
things into consideration, like who you are, being out and
the press, the media. Right twenty eighteen probably was just
a lot when you talk about it, just going going, going, going,
and then experiencing psychosis. She knew that you needed, not
necessarily her, She knew that you needed her education and
her training.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
She probably had a treatment.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
Plan, and that treatment plan determined what you all needed
to work on.
Speaker 4 (25:19):
And I think that that is really important. That's how
therapy should work.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
Oh now, I'm not saying it's not easy to depart
because there is a connection that happens.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
You're sharing your life with you. Because I like, she
can't even check on me, which I know is not ethical.
It is I don't even get no, it's been I
don't even and I referred other people to her and
I don't even get a text. But I was like, girl,
your fire, you're doing good. She ain't your partner, she
ain't your mama, she's not your sister.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
She y'all not in a relationship like that, But y'all
not in a relationship.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
She has to trust that she's done her job, and
then you have to trust that I don't have to
rely on her for everything. The goal is to know
that if I ever found myself challenging in a way
to where I no longer have the ability to even cope,
then I may have I may need to return, because
(26:16):
that option is always there. But it's not supposed to
be a lifetime sentence. Now, there are some people that
depending on Like we're talking in mental illness right because
I think that that's important because we use those words
interchangeable and it's.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Not mental health. It's not the same.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
It's mental ill it is not And I think, well,
I always say this, we destigmatize.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
The wrong thing.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
You should not be shame around having mental health because
we all have mental health.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Come on, like that to me does not be in
this self like we all have reproductive health.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Right is that an able? Just the same?
Speaker 3 (26:49):
Like it's like saying you have an arm. Why would
you There's no shame around having an arm. It would
be no, you would have shame around not having an arm,
right like? And mental illness is the thing that gets
overlooked in the process because that's where the shame lies. Now,
where the shame lies from a mental health perspective is struggle.
Is seeing this failure right versus no? Like as a human,
(27:12):
we expect you to feel like you're failing at life
because you're going to experience all of these transitions.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
And in the process, I always say that life is.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
Asking you one thing, who do you want to be
despite what I'm experiencing, despite what I have experience and
figuring out how do you not lose yourself? And if
you do lose yourself, because that's not abnormal to lose
yourself as a human because you are going through changes.
It's how do you start asking the questions to reflect
(27:42):
back who do I want to become? Because if we
look at basic human development, at some point we're all
going to look back over our lives with a sense
of integrity and despair and say.
Speaker 4 (27:52):
Did I live a life well lived? Or do you
end up having regret? And that does not change.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
Yeah, no matter what your circumstances are, no matter what
you look like like, which is why when the world
is in chaos, like we all can feel it, because
there are some very basic and common things about being
a human very good.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
So many gems drop from pain to power, How struggle
can be seen as failure and just the journey. I
guess just we just need more education so we can
use the right language. May I ask you about the
word trigger? Well, I'll ask you the first one.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
What is a trigger?
Speaker 3 (28:45):
So the way that I view trigger as more of
a clinical term these I think of trigger if you
think about someone that's been in the war, You think
about someone that has experienced sexual abuse, someone that may
have experienced sexual abuse, right if they hear the same
sounds of something that reminds them of that or the
(29:06):
recent la fires. Right, if someone smells fire and they
think that they're back in that situation. That's how I
think of a trigger, Not every day annoyance. Like something
that annoys you every day, that's not a trigger. And
that's why I think that that's so important because if
we made the distinction between this terminology, we could find
a balance with like really helping us as a society.
Speaker 4 (29:30):
Like triggers.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
I think of triggers is more like the things that
were traumatic to a person.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Not like, oh my dad talked.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
To me, he said something yesterday and it triggered me.
Did it trigger you or did it bother you? Because
those aren't the same things. Like triggers cause you to
like truly shut down to where you feel like you
can't even function to some degree. And that's again, is
the distinction between mental health and mental illness.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
It's like streams of struggling.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
So is a trigger the result of PTSD or is
that the same thing?
Speaker 2 (30:06):
Yes? Okay? So yes, trigger is.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
The form of PTSD, y'all, which is a clinical diagnosis
if I'm not mistaken, Yes, post traumatic stress disorder and
so if that is still something on the inside of
you in your mind, you can have a trigger based
off of that experience that led you to a PTSD.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Yes, okay, thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
So it's kind of like, remember, I don't know if
you remember when people said, stop saying you're OCD because
it's a real thing.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Yeah, yeah, it's a real thing. So you think we should.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Stop saying I'm triggered if when I'm just annoyed, bothered
or pissed off, I don't.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Think we should.
Speaker 4 (30:49):
I mean, because I get it, like when I'm kicking
it with like my friends.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
I mean, I may say, like, girl, I do not
have the capacity for that, right, But you have to
think that not every body is in the same boat
would have the same understanding of what these terms mean.
And that is more of the issue because we ended
we end up building a society that becomes very fragile,
(31:13):
and you don't have good mental well being if we
end up with a fragile society. More so, but like.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
And no, I mean, and I've heard you speak about that.
I've read that even about you saying that's those two words.
A fragile society. You know, Yes, we are a strong people.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
But maybe there are some areas like.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
We you said building building capacity, so that we're not
I guess, So is it emotionally fragile?
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Well, there is a lot of emotional fragility going.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
On, there is, I mean it there, it is there,
it is.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Oh my gosh, I feel like I need a part too,
because it's like, okay, emotional fragility in relationships, that's.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
A whole that's a whole topic because I see romantic relationships.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Okay, yeah, okay, I want to I want to pivot
back to the word trigger.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
If you have.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
A trigger, does that mean you're not healed?
Speaker 3 (32:27):
I think that that's going to be a very personal
question depending on the individual, right, Because if you were
to ask me that question personally, I would tell you know,
that does not mean that I'm healed, because one, I
don't see myself as broken. Number Two, I understand that
I'm not exempt from life's adversities, which means that it's
not abnormal for me to be triggered. So I'm not
making judgments about life's challenges or the way that they're
(32:51):
shaping me because I'm not making a judgment about the trigger.
Speaker 4 (32:55):
Right, So it's to me.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
That's a very personal question because you you will have
some therapists that will say you can never be healed.
I just don't believe that. I don't think that people
get the final say in terms of you'll never be here.
You just learned to live, you just learned to work
with life, Like I don't believe. I don't subscribe to that.
Speaker 4 (33:19):
So it just that it's a.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Very individual.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
There.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
I can acknowledge when I'm struggling, like I can acknowledge
when I'm struggling, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm broken.
And I think that that's where we went wrong too
in the mental health space, Like we are not medical professionals,
Like in fact, textbook says that mental health professionals are
not experts in mental health. Who's the expert then, because
(33:51):
you got to think mental health is complex all of
the things that are shaping you, because science is not
science tries to find like truth validity in all those things.
But you got nature, nurture, genies, you got all these
factors playing a part.
Speaker 4 (34:08):
We do our best to figure out how to support.
Speaker 3 (34:11):
You based off of the information that you give, but
we're not necessarily experts in mental health.
Speaker 4 (34:17):
Right, which is why you.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Had the DS and you have all these guides and
these frameworks, right.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
But to say that I'm an expert in mental health,
we mean that I know how Michelle should think, feel,
and behave in every situation. And that's not necessarily true
because I expect Michelle to exhibit maladaptive behaviors just based
off of her growing, changing life, and I expect her
to have adaptive behaviors. So it's we're not experts in
(34:44):
that sense. I see what we understand human development. We
understand the risks that are associated with certain things that
you may experience, and then we have the skills to
help navigate you through those days.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
Okay, So I guess your wheels.
Speaker 4 (35:03):
Are going like this because that just blew my mind.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Like the mental health therapists are not the mental health experts.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
So then I'm like, well, okay, well then I do know.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
A therapist cannot diagnose, only a psychiatrist can.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
It depends on the state.
Speaker 3 (35:17):
Like I can die, I can diagnose here in the
state of Texas. Now I cannot give you know, medication
has to go through a cycle. Yeah, but I can diagnose,
So it depends on the state. In Texas.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
We can diagnose. Amazing.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
That's something funny me because now those of us that
have been in therapy now we think we can diagnose,
but like, oh, I think you have.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
So and so.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
I think you're giving bipolar just a tingch. No, this
has been exciting, so exciting for me, mind blown, absolutely
absolutely amazing. I do want us to maybe get her
(36:08):
capacity journal and.
Speaker 3 (36:10):
Everybody human development, because there are eight you go to
the eighty questions, so it's eight different themes and it's
all human development.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
Absolutely all right, We've y'all, we've got to do that,
because now that's a new word we that we can
annoy her.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
With and add to our our therapy language. I don't
have the capacity I'm protecting. Listen, Ercaul. If I was
your friend, I would probably just bully you and say
stuff like that. No, I'm just planning. I promise you.
(36:47):
I promise you.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
I am because I actually do respect your credentials. And
there are some things that I that have probably been
even that were still indoctrinated in me by what I
thought mental.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Health is about.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
And deconstructing some of those things, and I'm really really
happy that you took some time for us today.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
There are some words y'all that we use.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
A lot, boundaries, triggers, self care and the new ornament
on the tree, gas lighting, and narcissist.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
But what's so unfair though, Raquel is you cannot there
it really happens.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
The gas lighting happens.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
And oh that's the other thing we be diagnosing narcissists
when it was just a bad breakup.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
No, it's a thing I think until you probably have
really encountered a nist. Here's the thing that gets me
with the narcissists, right, Like when you hear people say
I survived like a narcissist, I don't take mental illness
likely right. So to me, narcissm is a mental is
someone that really struggs.
Speaker 4 (38:00):
Yes, it's not like it's a diagnosis. So when people
use it lightly like they knew what.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
They were doing, I'm like, well, did you say that
you survive your dad who was an alcoholic?
Speaker 2 (38:11):
People?
Speaker 3 (38:12):
Because you know, all those are addictions, those are real
things that people struggle with. So as much as you
can say that where they are intentionally trying to do this,
intentionally trying to manipulate you, there are some things that
are beyond their control. And that's when you know that
you truly understand the difference between mental health versus mental illness,
(38:33):
because we all may exhibit traits of narcissism, right, but
to actually have a diagnosis of narcissism, it's an illness.
Speaker 4 (38:44):
Like it's an illness. It's like, I don't know any
other way, it's an illness.
Speaker 3 (38:51):
Now it sucks that if you actually have experience dealing
with a narcissistic person. Right, but are we really gonna
walk around because to me, that is what creates shade,
Like I think that you're just as guilty for calling
out someone that may live with a mental illness because
(39:13):
more of the connection, like the community, people, women, relationships,
getting stuff, it gets really tricky. Right, So it's like
you knew what you were doing to me, Like, no,
like I caught my own issue.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Yes, yes, I don't know if this is true, and
I don't I don't intend to dwell on the topic
of narcissism much longer. I was told that we either
we all have narcissistic traits trades.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
That ye, true, But because it's ego, a lot of
it is ego grandy, I say, like when you get
out of on the stage. Shit, oh like there's probably
some narcissistic traits coming out of you because you've got
to feel like that girl when you get out there.
Speaker 4 (39:50):
Right, Like, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
So we all have trades, Okay, we all have traits,
we all exhibit traits.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
Okay, absolutely, we all made.
Speaker 4 (39:59):
Exhibit traits of all all of the things.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Right. Like, That's why you're is.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
If you're having a bad day, it might look like depression,
but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's diagnosable, right, So,
which is why the DSM breaks those things down based
on the biggest thing that people miss with diagnosis is
the frequency of those things. Okay, that's the thing that
people miss. It's the frequency that you're seeing these behaviors.
(40:26):
If I have five bad days doesn't necessarily mean that
I am depressed. It could mean that I'm under developed.
The situation goes beyond my ability to truly cope. That's
why you have the DSM because it's a framework. But
it's not just based off of the symptoms. It's symptoms
(40:46):
plus the duration of those symptoms. So it's like three
to five symptoms for example, plus duration, and we.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Tend to skip that part of it. On one of
my podcasts, Raquel, I thought I was and it was
my iron was just real low. See.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
My ferretine was in the single digits. Iron was like
about over sixty five points below the average of what
iron should be. And I was like, I know I'm
(41:26):
not falling back in no depression. I wouldn't call the
psychiatrist and all this. And I was like, I feel
like I'm sleeping with the wave.
Speaker 3 (41:33):
And that's why we're not experts health right there, you
just gave the perfect exam because we're too complex. It's mind, body,
and soul, it's all of those things.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
Oh and I was like, I think, I think I'm
gonna need medication.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
I got the prescription.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
Filled and then I went and got some labs done, Raquel, and.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
We found out it was low iron.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
And was there a personal situation I was dealing with
last year.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
Due to a decision that I had to make. Yes,
But I was like, I got the.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
Tools, like this shouldn't be like keeping me into bed,
this shouldn't be making me feel like I got I
got a weighted blanket on me.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
It was just low iron, you know, it really was.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
And so I was encouraging people before you even I
shouldn't say before, make that a part of your process
to getting your blood work done and making sure it's
just maybe you know, in my case it was low iron,
or in some other people's cases could be some hormonal
imbalances which still can lead to a mental health exactly
(42:49):
illness possibly.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
But again, I'm not the doctor.
Speaker 4 (42:54):
You sound like one.
Speaker 3 (42:55):
I'm just well, it sounds like you just go ahead
and go to a therapist.
Speaker 4 (43:00):
You got it.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
I wanted to go to school for psychology, and this
is a public confession that got accepted into a university,
and had I finished, I would actually probably be in
my almost first year of probably getting the masters.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
But I know, I think the best professionals are the
people that have had real via experience.
Speaker 2 (43:26):
It.
Speaker 3 (43:26):
It's like when you started to hear like that wisdom
come through. There was this a black psychologist, doctor Joseph White.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
I love him. He talks about I love oh, I
love him. His name is doctor Joseph White.
Speaker 3 (43:38):
There's a quote in one of his books he says
that information isn't always knowledge, and knowledge isn't always wisdom.
And I remember it stuck with me, right and just
talking about lived experience, like you have a lot of information.
We have a lot of information today, right, and it
is knowledge, but it doesn't always convert to wisdom. When
we start talking about discernment, discermon to say, like I
(44:01):
know that I'm making a major decision right now, but
I don't think.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
I'm depressed, Like I feel like I have.
Speaker 3 (44:07):
The tools, Like that's wisdom, that's speaking okay, right, And
no education can account for that.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
No education can account is a lived experience. It was live. Yes,
I'll take it. I'll take it, but I will take it.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
And I don't know if you're if you are ever
doing like a master class a conference, whether it's in
person or virtually, I will be one of the attendees
and one of the students, y'all. In the beginning, and
I'm gonna let her go. In the beginning of our conversation,
(44:47):
we were discussing how just you know, within five months
your life has changed, and how you had to build capacity,
building build incapacity. And I even I read that you said,
I'm paraphrasing, Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
Did I read where you're You're.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
Almost like you were worried about what what to say,
or I don't want to say this the wrong way
because your name has gotten much larger.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
We know your name, we know your voice, and now
you're feeling like WHOA, I don't feel that.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
I was on vacation and I was with my family
and we we say all the things right, and I look, I.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
Said that to my mama at a funeral. I said, Mama,
Oh God, So you.
Speaker 4 (45:43):
Know, I do feel myself teeter and tired.
Speaker 3 (45:45):
Part of me wants to say, I'm going to protect
my piece and my mental health because walk into this,
because I understand that there's a piece.
Speaker 4 (45:54):
That you give.
Speaker 6 (45:54):
Because I'm even telling my us, don't be quiet. We're
in the airport, like people don't tell you that they know.
Oh you're right, Like you may have somebody because there
was an airport. This lady was like, girl, this must
be a sign from God. I need to get your
phone number.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
She was just And you.
Speaker 3 (46:08):
Know, you have people that say, I'm sure you're used
to it, right, but this is new for me.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
Right, like in the restaurant with my family and they're like.
Speaker 3 (46:15):
Cauk you And there are some people that won't say anything,
and you're just with your family you're not thinking about.
I was actually telling my friend this morning, it's like
grief of an old life.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
And then it's part of me that's like do I
want how much do I.
Speaker 4 (46:31):
Want to step into the new life? So it's I mean,
and I'm there too. That's why I say capacity is.
Speaker 3 (46:38):
This thing that you build and you rebuild over time
that asks you to come back to yourself.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
Yes, thank you for helping us, even especially those of
us that have been in therapy a while.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
Giving us.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
More tools for the tool belt. And then I think
too for people who are curious about this world of
going to therapy or you you are a professional certified
coach as well, which, by the way, those therapy and
coaching is two different things, if I'm not mistaken. But
(47:17):
thank you so much for your voice. Thank you for
your time today. I'm excited to just I'm sitting back
just like excited for you, even though have empathy for
what you're sharing regarding your life is changing and it's
changing before our eyes. And that's a sacrifice that I know,
(47:38):
I see and I feel. Thank you, Yeah, thank you,
and you you will have a time where you're gonna
you're gonna find the right places you can go into people,
you know, where you can still be in public and
cut up a little bit.
Speaker 2 (47:55):
Hopefully I don't isolate.
Speaker 4 (47:57):
That's what I'm like, you know, you can't.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
I can't unknow what I know now right.
Speaker 3 (48:01):
The part of me is like he text me, He
was like, hey, did you want to you know, just
go and hang out.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
We had pool brings around. I was like, yeah, because
it's gonna be back here. I know. I know because
there are those of us.
Speaker 1 (48:13):
Who we didn't choose for people to walk up to
us to get to know.
Speaker 2 (48:20):
We just feel like we're just out here doing the
Lord's work.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
Right, Yeah, I's it is still weird, and I'm going
to use the world.
Speaker 2 (48:29):
It's uncomfortable for me.
Speaker 3 (48:32):
Sometimes I could imagine, like I would imagine, here's the
thing though, what I'm what I what I tell myself
again if I'm gonna walk this way, But I mean.
Speaker 1 (48:41):
Uncomfortable, not because y'all, not because I'm not grateful for.
Speaker 2 (48:49):
But the sometimes.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
It catches you off guard and you're like, I was
just trying to get somebod Soirelli sticks.
Speaker 3 (49:00):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, I think that because I can't
unknow what I know, right, and I always talk about
like victimhood and autonomy. I am choosing if I continue
down this path. I am choosing.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
Now.
Speaker 3 (49:20):
That doesn't mean that I won't have days where I
feel like I am losing a part of me to
walk into this space. But am I going to be
victim to all of it? And that's the biggest difference,
because I don't have to do this right. If you
continue to do it, you don't define the moment. I
(49:42):
play a part in that. So a lot of this
is radical acceptance and radical responsibility. So and I am
teeter tottering right now, but I know what it sounds
like to be a victim or to be at the
effect of life circumstances. And at some point I'll I
have to say, like, all right, you're gonna walk completely
into this, which is another thing, right, because it's like obedience, right,
(50:06):
So it's like, I know I'm gonna walk in this,
but you're not gonna be a victim.
Speaker 1 (50:10):
To it, Raquel, if I was your therapist, I will
tell you right now, let me know how I can
support you.
Speaker 2 (50:16):
I'm so proud look at you. You already know I'm
just going.
Speaker 3 (50:23):
You just let's go get you just go get a
life coaching certification.
Speaker 2 (50:27):
You can just go get your life coaching certification. Listen,
I actually do you have to do? I do use it?
Are you am? I am?
Speaker 1 (50:39):
I am Valerie Burton's company called Coaching and Positive Psychology.
I'm a sister out of Georgia. She is dynamic, someone
that John Maxwell uses a lot. Okay, you probably know
her face when you see her, but yeah, I am
a certified certified.
Speaker 2 (51:00):
Life coach here. So that is awesome. And I can
see it. I can hear it. Yeah, I can see it.
Speaker 3 (51:07):
I can hear I think a lot of it's it's
your experience, right, it's your spirit, it's your soul.
Speaker 2 (51:11):
And those are the things that people end up feeling.
Speaker 3 (51:18):
This article that they written that that was written by
a Yale professor yesterday. That's what I'm still like in
my feelings about because the way that he wrote that article,
it was so.
Speaker 1 (51:28):
Rich, like it's.
Speaker 3 (51:33):
No, it's out I put it, it's in my link,
and my breaks it down. Yes, he breaks it down
in terms of what people are responding to for me.
Speaker 4 (51:43):
And then he even goes.
Speaker 3 (51:44):
To say she's saying she has privileged because she is
a black woman. Because she does understand the harder realities
of racism and all those other things. So I can
say what white people cannot say. But it's still does
hasn't changed the truth whether a white person is saying
it or not. Maybe people can digest what I'm seeing
(52:05):
a little bit more. But he says, and she does
it in a common sensical way.
Speaker 2 (52:10):
Yes, Oh my gosh, y'all.
Speaker 1 (52:12):
The article is called the Return of Mental Health ass Capacity.
Speaker 2 (52:17):
Raquel Hopkins viral rise may reveal, Oh my gosh, may reveal.
Speaker 4 (52:22):
It was good, it made me cry, it made me y'all.
Speaker 2 (52:25):
This says, it's revealing.
Speaker 1 (52:27):
This is what it is, a public craving for strength
over fragility. Amen, this is amazing. I'm excited about your journey. However,
I can help and support again.
Speaker 2 (52:39):
I'm gonna be.
Speaker 1 (52:40):
One of the first students in the class or the
first person at the conference with my iPad, my physical
piece of paper and pen. I'm there, Raquel, thank you
so much. How can we find you?
Speaker 3 (52:55):
I am on Instagram, so it's Raquaeil Underscore the underscore
capacity expert. I'm also on TikTok, but I'm more present
on Instagram, and I know a few people have found
me on LinkedIn and it's just Raquail Hopkins there.
Speaker 1 (53:11):
Yeah, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (53:15):
I'm excited we will see you soon. Thank you for
checking in, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 (53:20):
It was an honor, It was a pleasure to have
this conversation with you.
Speaker 2 (53:26):
She's gonna have to be a resident therapist and coach.
We'll figure all that out a little later.
Speaker 1 (53:34):
I think what I am loving most about this conversation
is that it will have us thinking beyond what we're
learning even on social media. And I know that social
media is actually opening up the door for people to
(53:55):
even want to think about going to therapy, for people
to even want to know what is it? Why is
everybody talking about the state of mental health, and also
how we get mental health versus mental illness mixed up.
(54:20):
Everybody has mental health, but not everybody has mental illness.
I have been saying that for probably twelve years or more.
I'm really excited to continue to expand this conversation even
beyond what I've learned in my years of going to
(54:41):
therapy and retreats in everything quote unquote self care. So
I'm not going to say too much more other than
let's continue to think about things more.
Speaker 2 (54:56):
And how about.
Speaker 1 (54:57):
This, take care of you. If you notice that you're
not filling your best, your mood has just been up
and down for far too long, or you just don't
have language for how you're feeling, I would encourage you
to pursue a therapist, to pursue some counseling, and to
(55:20):
get some amazing friends around you as well. All Right,
y'all already know I'm gonna champion that. I'm gonna champion
that all day long. Okay, all right, thank y'all so
much for tuning in to another amazing episode of Checking In.
Speaker 2 (55:35):
I love you, guys.
Speaker 1 (55:36):
I cannot do this without your support, and I cannot
do this without y'all constantly downloading these episodes and sharing
them also with the people you love. We'll talk again soon.
(56:17):
Checking In with Michelle Williams is a production of iHeartRadio
and The Black Effect. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to
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