February 13, 2024 • 49 mins
Michelle and Dr. Varma are exercising optimism! Dr. Sue Varma shares her experience as a health professional during the 9/11 tragedy and the COVID pandemic. She also dives into toxic positivity, cultural impact on mental wellness and the “4 M’s” of mental health. CHECK IN to this episode to find out how movement can improve your mental health.
For more about Dr. Sue Varma, visit: https://www.doctorsuevarma.com/
Follow Dr. Varma on Instagram: @doctorsuevarma
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Twitter: @RealMichelleW
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Checking In with Michelle Williams, a production of
iHeartRadio and The Black Effect. I know you've heard the
(00:20):
song don't worry, be Happy or since just be positive.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
It's all gonna be okay.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
I'm excited to talk to doctor Sue Varma. She's got
a book called Practical Optimism, The Art, Science, and Practice
of Exceptional well Being, and I want to get her
thoughts on the term toxic positivity. If you've heard that term,
or if somebody has been too positive while you've been
going through something, I want you to listen to this episode. Hello,
(00:52):
Welcome to another amazing episode of Checking In. I really
hope that you have been enjoying the variety of the
pre episodes. They have been so fun, so so positive,
so affirming, and it kind of lines up with our
guests that we have today. I'm sure you've seen her
as an expert on the Today Show or Good Morning America.
(01:15):
She's an author, psychiatrist, New York University medical professor, a
two time sharecare Emmy winner. Please welcome doctor Sue Varma
to Checking In.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Thank you so much for having name show. So great
to see you.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
I'm just so delighted. I know me and the producers
of Checking In. We are delighted to have you here.
You have a new book called Practical Optimism, The Art, science,
and Practice of Exceptional well Being, and we're gonna just
get right into it. Well, actually, before we get into it,
(01:50):
I want you, guys, we all know that what September
eleventh did.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
I can tell you where I was.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
I was in Los Angeles, September eleventh, two thousand and one, Reachion, Beverly,
Wilshire Hotel, me Beyonce and Kelly. We were preparing for
the Latin Grammys and ninety eleven happens. Well, y'all, Doctor
Sue Varma worked with survivors of ninety eleven, and if
(02:22):
I'm not mistaken, that's what led you to this past
of positivity and optimism.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Yes, and you know it's so interesting, Michelle's like, no
matter where in the country you were, none of us
were untouched by by nine to eleven. And I was
in my training at the time, and then you know,
we we were sitting in the New York City hospitals,
not sitting waiting anticipating folks to come in and discharging
a lot of patients and hoping that people would come in,
(02:52):
and what we were finding instead was that the death
hole kept increasing and we didn't have too many living
people coming in. And it would be a few years
later when I got selected to be the medical director
of this program and started getting very interested in resilience
because Michelle I was seeing that there were all these
people who would come in and some of them had
(03:13):
medical problems. They were covered that day with dustin debris
as they were trying to escape, a lot of them
got trampled on. Some people witnessed loved ones just getting trapped,
not being able to get out, seeing people jumping out
of the windows, like just all the worst terrific, unimaginable stuff.
But what it also taught me about was how the
(03:34):
human spirit truly is resilient in the face of adversity,
and really it's through helping others. That is where I
saw some of the strongest people. Not that they didn't
have their own injury or illness or problems or job loss,
but somehow they in the midst of all this, they
were able to rescue other people, pick up the people
(03:55):
that were trampled on. And then these were the folks
that kind of went on to to survive and not
just survive, but thrive. And so I got interested in
who these people are, what are their genetics, what have
set them up in life? You know? And then how
can the rest of us learn and take notes? Because
up until now, you know, Michelle always thought of like
(04:17):
optimism as something you were either born with or you weren't.
And then what do you do if you're not? What
do you do if you're the glass half empty type?
Because all of us know people like that, right, Like,
so it was like, all right, how do we figure
out what do these people have who are just naturally positive?
And then how can the rest of us learn from them?
Speaker 1 (04:38):
So good and y'all well, doctor Subrama is talking about
she was the she's as the pioneering medical director and
attending psychiatrists at the World Trade Center Mental health programs.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
She played a crucial role.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
In supporting civilian and first responders in the aftermath of
the tragic ninety eleven event, and as she's also sharing,
she saw the stress and the trauma. And I love
how you're saying, you notice the resilience of people who
were injured or on the scene, injured themselves, but helping people.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
You know, you said. A key word you said genetics.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Mm hmm am I hearing you say, is optimism and
resilience the same thing?
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Great question. Optimism is one key component of resilience, and
then there are other key components that can help people
be more resilient, like people who are flexible in their thinking,
people who are able to reframe things positively, people who
are able to offer people social support or get social
support themselves, people who have a sense of humor. Like,
(05:50):
think of resilience as sort of this umbrella and then
underneath it that they're all these little things, and optimism
is sort of one of the key five or six
things that all feed into resilience, and up until now
nobody really paid attention because they're like, all, right, social support,
I can work on, I can try to learn how
to ask for help, right, I can kind of reframe
(06:11):
my negative thinking, maybe with the help of a good therapist.
But what is this optimism nonsense? Right? Like, it's like
either you have it or you don't. And if you
don't have it, First of all, if you have it,
are you like we were talking about toxically positive, Like yeah,
all figured itself out? Or are you just negative? And
then there wasn't nobody realized that it was something actionable,
(06:34):
that optimism is a skill, that it's a tool that
it can be learned, it can be taught, and it
can be practiced, and our life depends on it. Because
there is so much robust study that shows that people
who are optimists, so you know, if you're blessed to
have these genes, you can benefit from it so that
you live longer ten to fifteen percent longer. Optimists are healthier,
(06:56):
they make more money, they have longer lasting relationships. So
there's so much robust science now and data to back
up the benefits of optimism. But up until now, until
this book, no one told us how to do it.
And so that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
You're saying it's genetic. Optimism is genetic.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Only one component though, So this is what I learned
in my research. Optimism is genetic, but only twenty five percent.
The rest seventy five percent is up to us. So
these research, Yeah, it is really like fascinating what I learned.
So researchers in twenty eleven at the UCLA Medical Senator
(07:36):
did some research and they found that there's a gene
that actually corresponds with optimism, and if you have this
particular variant, you're set. You're going to see things positively.
And that's what optimism is is, in any number of
possible outcomes, you always envision, imagine the more favorable one.
People who aren't born with this gene or a variant
(07:58):
of it, have a tendency to pa negative thinking and depression.
But to me, the more interesting part was not which
gene you were born with. What was the fact that
people who had this optimism gene, so to speak, had
specific skills, so they were more likely to ask for help.
They were better at regulating their emotions and coping skills.
(08:19):
And I was like, I'm already doing this with my patients, right,
but I'm doing this with patients who've already gone through
trauma the other shoe has already dropped, so to speak,
and who have come in asking for help, the big
tea of trauma, life threatening type of thing. But what
about all the little teas, the everyday the disappointments, the
(08:40):
job loss, the breakup. What about that? What about those folks?
They may not have a big enough quote trauma to
bring them into help, some of them because they have
stigma and barriers will never come to seek help. How
do we take what we learn about optimism the genetic
kind and then turn it into a set of practices,
because really, that's what the researchers found, is that there
(09:02):
are skills that optimists do. It's not magic. It's really
not magic. Some people are just gifted and they're born
with this natural tendency, right. But really, what you find
in the brain when you do brain scans is that
people with optimism, they have more activity in a certain
part of their brain, in the left part. Yeah, so
you can see. So if I gave you an exercise,
(09:23):
and if you're an optimist, you're gonna be like, I
show you a picture of a car accident. Na, na, Na,
They'll get fine, they'll get medical treatment, we'll go back
to work three days, three days. The pessimists will see
the same thing, and they're going to have more activity
in the right part of the brain, and they're gonna
be like, Nah, they're not going to get better. It's
going to take them three months. They're not going to walk,
their wife is going to leave them as a result. Like,
they'll just project the worst case and you can see
(09:44):
it on their brain scan.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
So the person that is a pessimist, is it because
maybe it's been environmental They just had a lot of
bad cards dealt to them, trauma, abuse.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
Yes, percent, What a great question, and I love what
you're asking me because you're right, it's all of the above.
Like some of us just from the moment were born,
were hardwired. It could be intergenerational traumas to think of,
like our parents themselves were abused, were neglected, were incarcerated,
had untreated mental illness, substance abuse. So all of this
(10:22):
what we call like they call them adverse childhood events.
And it could be your parents getting divorced, your parent
not getting treated for illness, your parents fighting a parent,
leaving a parent, getting anything. And all of us probably
have at least one of these, and you know something something,
everybody's got something. So pessimism can come from your parents
(10:43):
having experienced trauma and it's already kind of baked into
your own genes. It could be the mental health history
in your family that there's people in your family that
have depression and it's been passed on to you. And
then the cards you're dealt one hundred percent, But the
thing is in spite of all of this what we
call genetic loading. That you might have had a family
(11:05):
history of pessimism, of depression, your own history of trauma,
you can still change the way you look, because when
you change the way you look, your life changes, your
outcomes changes. And that's how optimism differs practical optimism, because
it's not just having a positive outlook, it's turning those
positive outlooks into positive outcomes through action.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Wow, you've said so much as far as intergenerational trauma
and how a woman carrying it can it can be
in the womb and passed down. I'm like, Lork, can
we inject some positivity into the.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Sperm and the egg?
Speaker 3 (11:45):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Can we inject some skill?
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Some starburds something so that because it's like, it's unfair
to that child.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
They're just like, I'm just here.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
And as a result of me involuntarily being here, I
have depression. So even for me, I have dealt with depression.
I have found a way where if there is an
event that's caused me to well, Okay, So for instance,
this June twenty twenty three, I went through something in
(12:22):
some friendship but I noticed maybe it was depression, but
I got physically ill. My depression has been the type
where it puts me in the bed for days.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
I don't eat, I'm not.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Able to wash up, and just normal hygiene things. So
I was trying so hard. Nope, you're not going to
go back there. You're not going to go back there.
To the point where I think my response was like, Okay,
you're feeling this hurt, and maybe you're feeling hurt or
betrayed or overlooked or misunderstood. I got physically ill talking
(13:04):
to my mother about people and my family with depression.
She's had depression, her sister had depression, but I feel
like it was situational because she had a child that
was still born. But we looked at my father and
she admitted that it's a possibility that it had he
been diagnosed, him and his.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Father, so my grandfather.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
And my dad would have been bipolar.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
So then here I come, and I think all of
my siblings have dealt with some form of depression, but
mine started in the seventh grade, and I'm like, what
do I have to be depressed about in the seventh grade.
So hearing you and other psychiatrists talk about how it
(13:52):
can be passed on passed down or I was bullied,
and I'm not saying me not knowing how to respond
to bulled maybe that can make a child depressed. I
would love for you to just help us unpack I
guess what I'm talking about, especially talking about depression so
young in the seventh grade, but the whole genetic piece
(14:16):
of that. Yes, you know, I said a lot by
the way.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
You know, but thank you so much for first of
all being so open about it, because we need we
need this, you know, like when someone looks at you
like they would never know, like if they didn't know
your story, they would just say she's fabulous, like things
have worked out for her, like nobody would ever think.
And that's the problem is people think that these two
things are incompatible with each other. They almost put people
in two buckets, like you're either successful or you've had depression,
(14:41):
Like they don't put it together them successful people often
live with depression and it's and and all the success
they achieved might be in spite of it or like
working really hard to fight it or to not let
it take over. So thank you for sharing that. And yes,
so you know it's very interesting. Depression is a very
complex illness in that now we're getting more understanding that
(15:01):
the inflammation can be a part of it. So like
our things like our diet can play a role. Exercise
can help boost and kind of mitigate some of the
symptoms of depression by increasing dworphans in the brain and
serotonin and certain chemicals BDNF brain derived neurotrophic factors. So
there's all these things that can help us kind of
(15:22):
like fight against this maybe genetic predisposition, because when you're
talking about untreated bipolar disorder in the family, bipolar disorder
is highly highly like what we call genetically like transmitted
or heritable and like passed on and from parent to child.
And what we also see is that people who have
bipolar disorder in the family often will also have first
(15:46):
degree relatives, so like a sibling or a child which
has just straight up depression unipolar depression, like bipolar is
both the mania and then the low the high highs
and the lo lows, and unipolar is just the lows.
So definitely, it's like it's like for you, like it
sounded like hitting from both sides, Like you know, you've
got the dad and the grandparent and the mom and
(16:06):
your mom's sisters, so it's understandable. Like the likelihood or
the chances of the child having it if both parents
have had something in the form of a mood disorder
is absolutely very high. And then you add in environmental
pressures of the like the bullying, which is very damaging,
like bullying one percent increases your risk for all sorts
(16:30):
of problems like anxiety, depression, academic challenges. Because Michelle, one
of our fundamental needs as human being is belonging and
knowing that we matter to our peers, to feel like
we fit in and to feel like we have a
place in our society and in our community. And so
absolutely there's no reason why a seventh grader couldn't have depression,
(16:51):
especially if it's in the family.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
To begin with, that's so good, that's so good.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
And you know, when you're at that age, you don't
have the language. I didn't have the language in the
nineties for depression. I knew of loopus cancer. Just trying
to think of things family members have gone through, maybe
pneumonia at that time, aids what.
Speaker 4 (17:15):
Depression, Yeah, no, part of it, no, And culturally yeah,
and culturally right like mm hmm, like communities of color
it's just not talked about, it's not understood, it's frowned upon.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Their stigma. They're shame. There's blame, and like how can
we also forget like just the role like I think women, right,
Like women go through so much, so much is expected
of them. They are the matriarchs in many of our communities,
and so I feel like we become each other's support system.
But like there's so many and you have to be tough, right,
you have to put on a tough face, a brave face.
(17:51):
That so much is like you are the leader and
you are the pillar in your community. Right, So, like
when I think about like moms and aunts, they're cooking,
their home is open, people are coming in, and like
you don't even get a minute. You don't have the
luxury of being depressed, Like depression can be seen as
a luxury sometimes, right, Like you know, get up, pick
(18:12):
it up, move it. People are relying. You've got kids
to take care of. Like, so I feel like there's
a lot of layers and culture plays and ethnicity plays
a big role in this whether you're allowed to even
be depressed.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
So culturally, are you finding a certain culture more optimistic
than others?
Speaker 3 (18:36):
You know, you know, it's such a great question because
they what they were finding with this genetic study is that,
for example, Asians, they were thinking, may be more likely
to pessimism and depression. And I find that so interesting
because just yes, there's a genetic component to it, but
there's also like culturally, like racism, bias, discrimination, all of
(18:58):
this affects our biology. When we're experiencing that we don't
we're not made to feel like we belong, whether it's
on a cultural level, maybe it's the color of our skin,
or we're just bullied because for no reason, and all
of that. I put that in a similar bucket where
it starts to chip away at our morale, you know,
(19:20):
and something like nine to eleven terrorism can do that.
It chips away at your morale, your sense of safety.
You're like, you feel threatened, someone is out to get me,
someone doesn't have my back. I'm not safe, I'm not protected.
People don't like me. And however you want to call that,
whether it's bullying in seventh grade, or whether it's like
I'm a woman of color moving in the world and
(19:42):
the world doesn't see me as equal to them, you know,
any number of things, and I feel like when you
look at people's chromosomes, what we find is that there's
more stress. They're telomeres, which are the ends of the chromosomes.
These pieces end up getting oxidative stress, and they end
up becoming shorter, and it makes our biological age older
than our actual chronological age. So like if you're thirty
(20:06):
thirty five, yep, you and if someone looked at your chromosomes,
I'll be like, you look like a fifty year old.
Like on the inside, Oh.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
I want, I want you to look at my chromosome.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
I want to get We will have extra you know,
glasses and visions hopefully for that. But when they do
the genetic testing, they'll look and you know what really
is interesting shell It's like something like meditation can prevent
that oxidative stress. So they found moms. They put young
moms who are undergoing a lot of stress, and they
put one in like a control group, and they didn't
do anything for them, and then they put another one
(20:39):
in like a meditation mindfulness group, and those women, over
time showed a younger biolog like comparatively to those who
did nothing, a younger biological age because the meditation protected them.
So just because they are all these forces and factors,
and it's understandable why people are feeling down these days,
like inflation, war, right, like our country is, you know, strife.
(21:03):
There's so many things happening politically. We don't feel protected
and safe by and taken care of by our leaders.
We don't have health care as a basic we don't
have education as a basic right. Like to me, the
marker of a humane society is providing people their basic needs.
And when we look at like the World Happiness Index,
who are these top five countries? Who are these top ten?
The Scandinavian countries are always winning because women have rights, right,
(21:26):
they have positions and boards. So you can't have half
your population. If half your population as women be neglected,
left behind, not being given options, and then you don't
give them healthcare on education, look like you're screwed as
a society, you know. So I'm like, I'm pretty impressed.
I'm pretty impressed that Americans for the most part, are optimistic.
Of all countries I heard that like certain parts of
(21:48):
the world where women don't have rights, you know, the
optimism and the hot happiness fall, like in Afghanistan, they
are like the lowest on the happiness index, and happiness
and optimism are not quite the same. But this idea
that I have hope for better tomorrow, right, Like, I'm
impressed because I feel like, generally speaking, maybe compared to
other countries in the United States, we do women. You know,
(22:10):
I feel blessed enough, even coming from an immigrant family,
being a woman of color. Yes, I'm still grateful for
whatever opportunities I've had that I know I wouldn't have
had in other places. So as much as there's wrong
in this country, there's also a lot of positivity and
right So we have to balance it the good and
the bad.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Yeah. Yeah, it's something that you were talking about, say
like women in Afghanistan who know they want rights. Yeah,
and I can imagine wanting something that you know you're
supposed to have, you know is a right. So I'm
with you when you say you can understand why there's
(22:48):
no optimism, there no happiness there going through the motions,
which was a question that I have for you a
little later, So say what we were just talking about
women in certain parts of the world world who don't
have rights, or people in America who don't have access
to healthcare and education, but you're told that, no matter
(23:10):
how dire or difficult a situation is, you should maintain
a positive mindset. And this is coming from verywellmined dot com.
They were talking about toxic positivity, why it's harmful, and
what to say instead. Well, we're not going to go
through that anyway, but so for those of you listening,
you're like toxic positivity. So toxic positivity apparently is the
(23:33):
belief that, no matter how dire or difficult a situation is,
people should maintain a positive mindset. But in this article,
it's saying that it's toxic to always think positive. So
as we're talking about you don't have health care, you
don't have education, you're living paycheck to paycheck. I was
serving at a food pantry in Florida a few months ago,
(23:56):
and there were people that had what you would consider
to be newer model cars. One woman said, I work
at well, she works at a certain delivery logistics company,
and she said, I'm still living paycheck to paycheck and she's.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
In the line to get food.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
But you want to tell me to be positive, So
what is your take? Is there is that or such
thing as being yes too positive?
Speaker 3 (24:28):
Yes, yes, and you know it's it's telling someone to
just get over things, to look on the bright side,
everything will work itself out, right. Those are the toxic
positive statements where you may be well intentioned, but maybe
you just don't know the right thing to say to
somebody and so instead you said, like, just get over it,
and that makes them feel dismissed. And you know, toxic
(24:51):
positivity is telling someone to look on the bright side
without really understanding the gravity of what they are going
through and with out validating their experience. So a more
helpful statement would be to acknowledge the hardship, to say, like,
I see how hard you're working. I see how challenging
this is. This must be extremely frustrating, and at the
(25:13):
same time so recognizing the reality of the situation, which
can be quite dark and grave and devastating. Like sometimes
when I have patients who tell me something really horrible
that has happened or happening, Like if I were to
be like, yeah, man, just get over it, that's not
going to work, they'll be like, you know, peace out,
I'm not coming back to you. What do you mean,
(25:34):
you know, just get over it, right, So you have
to sit with them and grief. Grief is not just
about the things that you've lost, but there are also
the things that you never gained, maybe the milestones in life,
like during the pandemic, people didn't get to celebrate a graduation,
a retirement party, or they didn't get to say their
last goodbye to a loved one who might have been
(25:54):
in the hospital and dying. Right, So it's not just
things that are lost, but it's also things that you
never had that you wish or wanted. So what you're
talking about, Michelle, like the sort of paycheck to paycheck life, like,
that's that's where we're at. You know this, The studies
show that even people were making like a fit let's
say family for household income is like two hundred twenty
five thousand these folks, which is triple the meeting income
(26:18):
in the United States, they still can't make it, you know,
sort of day to day And when I look at
like private for example, when I talk to people who
are in Europe and they're like, oh my, I went
through this fabulous education. I only paid like, you know,
the equivalent of four or five thousand out of my
pocket in Euros the whole year. And they're like, you know,
in the United States, this would have been an eighty
(26:39):
thousand dollars a year undergrad tuition, And I'm just like,
there's no world in w which our undergraduation should be
that kind of money. That is like serious money, and
it just makes me sad, and really hard working people
just you need to catch a break so that you
can get out from underneath debt and you know, and
(27:01):
be able to get to the next level. Like you,
if you don't have the backing, you're not even going
to be able to get the education that might help
you move to the next level. So you know, it's
not an easy thing. But at the same time, I say, like,
don't give up hope, Like practical optimism is about Okay,
if Plan A isn't going to work, I'm going to
go down the list to Plan b CD all the
way to Z. You know, can I get a job
(27:23):
that can have let's say, as one of their benefits
tuition reimbursement, college loan forgiveness. Are they willing to pay
for night school? Is there a course that I can take?
Because a lot of times I feel like we also
put walls up. We don't want to admit that we're struggling,
you know, whether it's financially or job wise. And I
(27:46):
feel like that's kind of where we get in our
own way, where we're not asking for help because we
don't want to admit to somebody else that we look
like we have it all put together, right. We've got
the newest iPhone, we've got the fancy cars you talked about,
like the designer, right, so when we look head to toe,
nails are done, all of that, and inside we're like,
oh man, I don't I don't know if my bank
(28:07):
account is going to bounce, you know. So it's this
idea of like maintaining appearances that that really scares me
because not only you're doing yourself a disservice financially, but
also mental health wise.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
That's so good.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Well, in your book Practical Optimism, you give us tools
and techniques to help us reach financial fitness and relationship goals.
So switching gears here for a minute when we're talking
about toxic positivity, But is it okay for that person
to be optimistic? But they're like, I'm living paycheck to paycheck,
(28:44):
but I know things are going to get better.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
Yeah, So I would say hold on, And in that case,
the optimism is not toxic. It's actually survival. It's actually
pushing you to keep going tomorrow because you have the
hope and the faith and the belief that things are
going to get better. I always say hope is not
just a noun, it's also a verb. So you can't
just hope and wish and want for things good things
(29:09):
to come to you.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Right.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
Part of developing an abundance mentality is absolutely having a
positive outlook. That's turning those positive outlooks into positive outcomes
by creating an action plan. Who am I gonna call?
Who am I gonna ask for help? Who's gonna take
a chance on me? If I got rejected? Am I
gonna take a break, break and a breather, And I'm
(29:32):
gonna come back out tomorrow and put on this is
what're putting on? A strong face is not the worst
thing in the world, because it means you you pick
yourself up, you doust yourself as you know, I'm telling
I'm telling you know like that that such a beautiful line,
you know, like from you know, I think it was
a Oliah.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Pick yourself, yes, yeah, dust yourself off and try again again.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
And by the way, I should tell you your music
has had you know, your music your spirit, like everything
that you have done by yourself with Destiny's Child, just
you bring so much love and beauty and positivity into
the world. So thank you. I was I was a
kid and I have to growing up listening to you know,
in high school and all of it.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
And just so you're am I am I older than you?
Is that what you're saying is.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
I think you're younger, but you know when you're when
you see someone so fabulous, you're like, they must be
more experienced, they must be more accomplished. But I've been
telling you so funny.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
It's that I am in the age where I do
have to accept people are saying I grew up listening
to your music.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Yeah, so yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
Put you feel good. It's a possibility you could have
been older than me but still grew it growing listening
to the music. And it's okay, listen, doctor Barma. I
am optimistic as it relates to aging. I'm excited about it.
I'm excited about all the collagen pills and drinks and
(30:59):
all the things that I can that are gonna keep
me looking looking good, y'all. I promise you this is
a part of optimism that I feel like optimism can
be fun. It's not dismissing reality. But it's also for me.
Optimism for me has been the track record, meaning have
(31:22):
you gotten through heartbreak? Have you gotten through financial stress?
Maybe you say you got through financial stress because maybe
you're like you're stewarding the finance is better. Maybe you're
ordering less on certain apps you know, you're you're cooking
(31:45):
more so, or you're just trying to optimism in the
reality of what's going on. I just want us wanted
to just look at a circumstance and be like, I
can be opts domistic.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
I got through that.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
I got through that, I grew from it, and I'm
excited too, Doctor Varma, that you share that a strong
foundation of mental health is built on key habits. Okay,
the four ms of mental health mindfulness, meaningful engagement, movement
(32:23):
and mastery as it relates to COVID. And what you
saw is that something of those four ms. Was that
something that you could share during that time and now
past COVID, we are we're still seeing the effects of that.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
Yes, yes, so you know I had to come up
with this really in a very quick way. So in
twenty April twenty twenty, New York was about to hit
its peak and Global Citizen called me and they were like,
we're having all these fabulous people come on TV, you know,
Elton John and Rolling Stone, Oprah Gale whatever. I was like, great,
I'll be watching the show and they're like, no, no, no,
(33:08):
who want you to be in the show. I was like,
I don't sing, I don't dance. I don't know what
you want from me. And I'll be on my couch
like the rest of us and they're like no, no, no,
So you're going to come on and talk about something
positive and hopeful and then give people strategies and yaha.
And I was like, oh great. So like I have
an hour and they're like no, no, you have fifty
nine seconds. And I was like fifty nine seconds? How
(33:29):
am I going to and carry? Washington was actually introducing me,
and I was like fifty nine seconds first of all
to follow her and I love her at work, and
then I was like, okay, well what do I say
that's going to add value? And that's where I came
up with. I was like, okay, in fifty nine seconds,
if I could impart the CrOx of what good mental
health is. So, look, it's not going to substitute therapy,
(33:49):
the individual work that's done one on one when somebody
really investigating to know you. That's not going to take
the place of it. But what do I tell my patients?
So even when they come to me and they're like, oh,
I went through a job, books, I went through divorce,
I'm still taking a three sixty inventory about their life
and I want to know about their diet and their
habits and their friendships. So if I had to break
(34:09):
down good mental health in fifty nine seconds, and we
have a few more mindmentes of that. But meaningful engagement
is my favorite. What I love about that is telling
people there's two levels of relationships. There's the social snacking,
the micro connections, which is like the barista, the dog walker,
making superficial connections. That is just as important. The activity partner.
(34:32):
Maybe have a friend that you go cycling with or
go to a power yoga class with like that is
totally okay and necessary. Activity partners. We need those. You're
at work, the water cooler, at the elevator, talk to people,
make eye contact, smile, ask them how they're doing, Listen
wait for the response, say something meaningful back, or just
say I hear you. You know if you don't know
(34:54):
the right thing. So that's social snacking. That's the micro connection.
That's part of meaningful engagement. But also I want people
to go deep, have the one on one sit down,
how are you doing? And then be real take the
mask off, because so many of times we're posturing and posing.
Everything is great, my relationship is great, my money is great.
This is the biggest If I were to be like,
what is one of the biggest causes of unhappiness. It's
(35:17):
this need to seem like we're successful and that we
have it all together, and that is getting in the
way of real, authentic, honest conversations between people. So go deep,
be vulnerable, share something about yourself with the trusted people
in your life, and then also have your light fluffy
activity partner. Social snacking, micro connections, mindfulness. Just do something
(35:39):
one at a time. If you're talking to someone, that's
all you're going to do your washing dishes, that's all
they can do. And make should listen to your podcast,
by the way, so you know while they're doing something.
But whatever you do, do it wholeheartedly. Do it meaningfully.
You know, if you're going for a walk, be in
the moment and walking by the way is a great
way to get out of your own head because it's
(36:00):
something called optic flow where you have to look left,
you have to look right, make sure no one's running
over you with a car, and that gets you out
of the rumination in your own head. But mindfulness could
be deep breathing, it could be meditation. There's so many
benefits of meditation. So we've covered meaningful engagement, we've covered mindfulness.
You know, I would say part of mindfulness. I was
interviewed earlier in January by the New York Times by
(36:24):
a well wellness their wellness section, and it was called
Oasis moments. So it's about taking five minutes maybe have
a little meditation corner, a little zenden in your home
if you will, put a little cushion on the floor
and create a sacred space where you're just gonna breathe.
It could literally be in your bathroom. Like I'm a
mom and when my kids were young, it was the
only place where maybe maybe two minutes, they would let
(36:47):
me just be because but pretty soon they'd be knocking,
you know, soon. But the bathroom floor was kind of
my zend and it sounds kind of funny, or medical training,
the utility closet, like I'd be like, I'm gonna go
get those needles and the I'll be right back, and
I would just go in there and breathe for two minutes.
So mindfulness can create. It's about intention and creating a
(37:07):
sacred space of just going inward and breathing, or if
you're talking to somebody or whatever, just doing it single mindedly.
And then there's mastery. And I did two days. It
was a six day well challenge with the New York Times.
In the sixth day it was a Friday, and they're like,
we want you to bring or the fifth or sixth
day was the end of the week, and they're like,
how can people unwind without turning into you know, digital
(37:32):
or watching or streaming. And it was called low stakes
flow state where mastery you don't have to be a
master to experienced mastery. They asked me how do you
experience mastery? And I was like, I'm not very good
at it, but so all said dancing. And so for me,
like in medical school, it helped me, like you know,
I've been like shaking it to like Mark Anthony and
I love music. Your music, like just music helps me
(37:55):
just live and be happy and kind of get that
out of my own academic intellectually, you know, be with people,
and I love music from that part of the world.
I feel like it's just very uplifting and yeah, so
flow and mastery. It could be cooking, it could be gardening,
it could be painting, it could be a lot of
people into weaving and needle point like all of that
sort of creative making something you know and you don't
(38:17):
have to be good at it and it doesn't have
to be for anyone else but yourself. And then the
last one is movement. And this can be in any form,
but we do know that exercise not only does it
boost your mood, but it also boosts your sense of
purpose in life. So if anyone's listening to this and
they're like, I don't know what I want to do.
I don't really feel called to do anything big. I'm bored,
I'm lonely, I'm feeling empty, I don't know I want
(38:39):
to make a career pivot and I'm not feeling inspired.
Go for a workout, thirty minute workout, do whatever you
can weightlifting for women is great. It decreases like again,
it boosts your cognitive health cortisol. Yeah, totally decreasing the cortisol.
And you know what's really interesting is if you're like, oh,
I want to be mentally sharper, right after your exercise
(39:01):
is the best time because your attention, your concentration, your memory,
everything is boosted. So maybe leave the most difficult task.
If you have a really annoying email to put together,
or a project that you're like, I need creativity and
they don't have it, schedule a workout session and immediately afterwards,
like bring your laptop, and if you're lucky enough to
be at a gym or wherever it is, you are
just hit that most difficult to do less task right
(39:24):
after exercising. So those are the four ams of mental health.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
That is so I promise you, y'all. After I've had
a great workout, it never fails. I feel like I
literally can climb on top of a building rooftop and
fly nothing harmful.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Guys.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
I literally feel like I could imaginary wings are gonna
just come out, and I can just do anything.
Speaker 3 (39:50):
That's all, and.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Y'all, everything that doctor Sue Varma has mentioned is free.
You don't have to have a gym membership. You can
do squats, walk in a park, go find a safe
space in a park. Everything is free, y'all. My mother
cracked me up because I was like, Mom, you live
in a pretty nice neighborhood, like people golf behind your hounds.
(40:17):
I need you to go work outs, okay, I need
you to go.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
I need you to go walking.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
And she says, I don't have any walking shoes. I
go and buy her two different colors of walking shoes.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Why don't have socks.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
I'm like, if you don't go, you know, it was
so funny because she was wanting this expensive gym membership.
I'm like, you're not taking advantage of the beauty of
go walk with the There's a group of women who
like to walk. They have their neon vests on, you know,
walking around the neighborhood. So basically, guys, what I'm saying
(40:55):
is to be well.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
It does not break your bank. It just means you
just have.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
To give ten minutes, ten to twenty minutes of your
day somehow just taking care of you. And again, everything
you name is free. There are ways to listen to
music for free. Y'all know how to do it. You know,
there are ways to whether it's a legal or not,
I don't know, but there are ways to listen to
(41:24):
music for free. And I am so glad that you y'all.
She's given close to forty five minutes here of just
pouring to us about the importance of being optimistic. But
at the same time, you know, not dismissing your reality
and how you treat people who are.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
Going through something.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
Don't dismiss what they're saying. But you can look into
the face of hardship and maybe look at your track
record from before and be like, I'm gonna make it
through this. I made it through the last hardship. I'm
gonna get through this one. Nothing is wrong with that, y'all.
Doctor Suvarma, I'm so excited about your book.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
Thank you, kudos to you for sharing.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
And last question for you is the podcast is checking
In and the foundation of it is mental health. How
have you been doing as it relates to you have
had to be teach us about being optimistic in the
face of a lot of traumatic events.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
So for you, what has that done to you?
Speaker 3 (42:36):
Yes, so you know, Michelle, I'm very open about the
fact that like I see my own mental health as
something that I have to work on every day, Like
I don't want to take for granted. Like I feel
so blessed and called to do the work that I do,
and a lot of it involves me to roll up
the sleeves and getting the trenches with the people that
I work with and go through what they're going through
(42:57):
so that I can understand their hardship, so that I'm
not speaking from you know, up here, like you know,
I'm better. I've been through you know a lot myself personally,
and I talk about in the book in fact, it's
the opening chapter of my own personal breakdown, if you will.
And then how I came to learn about therapy, you know,
and how that's made me a better therapist, and how
(43:17):
that's made me a better person, you know, and like
all of the things that I talk about in the book. Yes,
I wanted to make sure everything was science backed, and
I did tons and tons of research, but I also
didn't want to put a single thing in their book
that I haven't used on myself and practice on myself
and with my patient. So the four ms of mental Health,
(43:37):
I think of it as a prescription and back in
the day when we had prescription pads and doctors used
to write them before we went from to electronic, I
would write on my pad, you were going to exercise,
you were going to you know. I didn't have the
language of the four ms of the time, but it was.
It's now like a non negotiable for me, like I
am going to finish with you and before I see
my next patient, I have a little time and I'm
(43:59):
going to run to the gym every single day. It's
non negotiable. I'll pick up the phone and call a friend.
So I put them in my life. You have to schedule,
think of if you take nothing else from this conversation,
The easiest thing to walk away with today tangible tool
and tip is the four MS Mindfulness, Movement, mastery, meaningful engagement,
And just populate your calendar with when am I seeing
(44:20):
a girlfriend in person? When am I going to go
to the gym? When am I going to go for
ten minute walk? And I hope that your mom listens
to this conversation and is like, all right, I'm putting
that neon vest On and I'm putting those bright sneakers
and I'm going because if I can share with you.
My mother in law is beautiful, lovely, very healthy, healthy,
very youthful, but like it's is also like I got
(44:42):
to push her. She lives across from this beautiful park
and is in driving distance ten minutes to the beach,
and those are two things that I love, being in
nature and the ocean, and I can't get her to go.
And it's like maybe sometimes people take it for granted
when they're surrounded by beauty, you know, And I'm just like, please,
like your health and your life depend on it. So
I know what it's like to love someone and to
(45:04):
care about their well being. I went through this with
my mom as well, and it was really hard. Like
you can have all the knowledge in the world, but
if like somebody in your life isn't ready to absorb it,
Like you know, sometimes you feel like, oh my god,
I'm bangging my head against the wall. But I'm not
going to give up because I'm a practical optimist. I'm
going to keep trying. And I hope you keep trying
with Mama Williams over that.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
Now, that's her, Mama Williams.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
That is amazing.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
So y'all, doctor Rahma is practicing what she literally preaches
the four Ams, and y'all, her nail color is so pretty.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
I peeped it.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
It's like light or it's so pretty. I'm going to
try that color.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
It's beautiful.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Thank you, Thank you so much. I'm so excited about
your book, Practical Optimism, y'all. Practical Optimism the art, science,
and practice of exceptional well being. Y'all.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
We deserve it.
Speaker 1 (45:59):
We deserve with so much going on in our environment,
you deserve to take care of you and have exceptional
well being, not just sue.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
Thank you for checking in.
Speaker 3 (46:11):
Thank you, thank you so much for having me. What
a great conversation. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (46:15):
Absolutely, you are welcome to come back anytime.
Speaker 2 (46:21):
What a wonderful conversation.
Speaker 1 (46:23):
I know I learned some things about toxic positivity, and
you know it's it's okay to remain optimistic in the
face of adversity, but don't dismiss your reality or what
someone else's reality is at the moment.
Speaker 2 (46:39):
You know, I loved it.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
Like when somebody loses a loved one, I don't think
that's the time to say Heaven needed an angel.
Speaker 3 (46:46):
Chi.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
I don't want heaven and have the angel. I want
my angel here on earth. And I know we say
things and we do mean well, but you know, sometimes
it's okay to not say anything. Sometimes it's okay to
just sit with the person in their grief or in
their disappointment. Now, me, personally, I don't want to sit
too long, you know.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
But I will sit with my friends.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
I'll sit with loved ones, you know, while they're grieving
or while they're going through But I will say, sometimes grief,
when you don't go through those stages of loss, grieving
a lass, it can turn into depression. And so listen, y'all.
I just ugh, I just know what that season was like.
(47:34):
I know I personally do not want to go back
to that season, but I do understand just sitting in
a moment of grief, sadness, disappointment.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
I get it.
Speaker 1 (47:46):
You want to acknowledge, Hey, this is what it is.
But I think now we have so many tools that
are accessible to us so that we don't have to
stay down too long.
Speaker 2 (47:59):
All right.
Speaker 1 (48:00):
I just thank y'all so much for checking in downloading
the episodes. I'm excited and I'm looking forward to season four.
All right, I love y'all. There's nothing you can do
about it okay. Now that might be toxic. I don't know,
but I don't care. You're gonna get this love. Checking
(48:50):
In with Michelle Williams is a production of iHeartRadio and
The Black Effect. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the
iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows.
Welcome to Checking In with Michelle Williams, a production of
iHeartRadio and The Black Effect. I know you've heard the
(00:20):
song don't worry, be Happy or since just be positive.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
It's all gonna be okay.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
I'm excited to talk to doctor Sue Varma. She's got
a book called Practical Optimism, The Art, Science, and Practice
of Exceptional well Being, and I want to get her
thoughts on the term toxic positivity. If you've heard that term,
or if somebody has been too positive while you've been
going through something, I want you to listen to this episode. Hello,
(00:52):
Welcome to another amazing episode of Checking In. I really
hope that you have been enjoying the variety of the
pre episodes. They have been so fun, so so positive,
so affirming, and it kind of lines up with our
guests that we have today. I'm sure you've seen her
as an expert on the Today Show or Good Morning America.
(01:15):
She's an author, psychiatrist, New York University medical professor, a
two time sharecare Emmy winner. Please welcome doctor Sue Varma
to Checking In.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Thank you so much for having name show. So great
to see you.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
I'm just so delighted. I know me and the producers
of Checking In. We are delighted to have you here.
You have a new book called Practical Optimism, The Art, science,
and Practice of Exceptional well Being, and we're gonna just
get right into it. Well, actually, before we get into it,
(01:50):
I want you, guys, we all know that what September
eleventh did.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
I can tell you where I was.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
I was in Los Angeles, September eleventh, two thousand and one, Reachion, Beverly,
Wilshire Hotel, me Beyonce and Kelly. We were preparing for
the Latin Grammys and ninety eleven happens. Well, y'all, Doctor
Sue Varma worked with survivors of ninety eleven, and if
(02:22):
I'm not mistaken, that's what led you to this past
of positivity and optimism.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Yes, and you know it's so interesting, Michelle's like, no
matter where in the country you were, none of us
were untouched by by nine to eleven. And I was
in my training at the time, and then you know,
we we were sitting in the New York City hospitals,
not sitting waiting anticipating folks to come in and discharging
a lot of patients and hoping that people would come in,
(02:52):
and what we were finding instead was that the death
hole kept increasing and we didn't have too many living
people coming in. And it would be a few years
later when I got selected to be the medical director
of this program and started getting very interested in resilience
because Michelle I was seeing that there were all these
people who would come in and some of them had
(03:13):
medical problems. They were covered that day with dustin debris
as they were trying to escape, a lot of them
got trampled on. Some people witnessed loved ones just getting trapped,
not being able to get out, seeing people jumping out
of the windows, like just all the worst terrific, unimaginable stuff.
But what it also taught me about was how the
(03:34):
human spirit truly is resilient in the face of adversity,
and really it's through helping others. That is where I
saw some of the strongest people. Not that they didn't
have their own injury or illness or problems or job loss,
but somehow they in the midst of all this, they
were able to rescue other people, pick up the people
(03:55):
that were trampled on. And then these were the folks
that kind of went on to to survive and not
just survive, but thrive. And so I got interested in
who these people are, what are their genetics, what have
set them up in life? You know? And then how
can the rest of us learn and take notes? Because
up until now, you know, Michelle always thought of like
(04:17):
optimism as something you were either born with or you weren't.
And then what do you do if you're not? What
do you do if you're the glass half empty type?
Because all of us know people like that, right, Like,
so it was like, all right, how do we figure
out what do these people have who are just naturally positive?
And then how can the rest of us learn from them?
Speaker 1 (04:38):
So good and y'all well, doctor Subrama is talking about
she was the she's as the pioneering medical director and
attending psychiatrists at the World Trade Center Mental health programs.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
She played a crucial role.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
In supporting civilian and first responders in the aftermath of
the tragic ninety eleven event, and as she's also sharing,
she saw the stress and the trauma. And I love
how you're saying, you notice the resilience of people who
were injured or on the scene, injured themselves, but helping people.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
You know, you said. A key word you said genetics.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Mm hmm am I hearing you say, is optimism and
resilience the same thing?
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Great question. Optimism is one key component of resilience, and
then there are other key components that can help people
be more resilient, like people who are flexible in their thinking,
people who are able to reframe things positively, people who
are able to offer people social support or get social
support themselves, people who have a sense of humor. Like,
(05:50):
think of resilience as sort of this umbrella and then
underneath it that they're all these little things, and optimism
is sort of one of the key five or six
things that all feed into resilience, and up until now
nobody really paid attention because they're like, all, right, social support,
I can work on, I can try to learn how
to ask for help, right, I can kind of reframe
(06:11):
my negative thinking, maybe with the help of a good therapist.
But what is this optimism nonsense? Right? Like, it's like
either you have it or you don't. And if you
don't have it, First of all, if you have it,
are you like we were talking about toxically positive, Like yeah,
all figured itself out? Or are you just negative? And
then there wasn't nobody realized that it was something actionable,
(06:34):
that optimism is a skill, that it's a tool that
it can be learned, it can be taught, and it
can be practiced, and our life depends on it. Because
there is so much robust study that shows that people
who are optimists, so you know, if you're blessed to
have these genes, you can benefit from it so that
you live longer ten to fifteen percent longer. Optimists are healthier,
(06:56):
they make more money, they have longer lasting relationships. So
there's so much robust science now and data to back
up the benefits of optimism. But up until now, until
this book, no one told us how to do it.
And so that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
You're saying it's genetic. Optimism is genetic.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Only one component though, So this is what I learned
in my research. Optimism is genetic, but only twenty five percent.
The rest seventy five percent is up to us. So
these research, Yeah, it is really like fascinating what I learned.
So researchers in twenty eleven at the UCLA Medical Senator
(07:36):
did some research and they found that there's a gene
that actually corresponds with optimism, and if you have this
particular variant, you're set. You're going to see things positively.
And that's what optimism is is, in any number of
possible outcomes, you always envision, imagine the more favorable one.
People who aren't born with this gene or a variant
(07:58):
of it, have a tendency to pa negative thinking and depression.
But to me, the more interesting part was not which
gene you were born with. What was the fact that
people who had this optimism gene, so to speak, had
specific skills, so they were more likely to ask for help.
They were better at regulating their emotions and coping skills.
(08:19):
And I was like, I'm already doing this with my patients, right,
but I'm doing this with patients who've already gone through
trauma the other shoe has already dropped, so to speak,
and who have come in asking for help, the big
tea of trauma, life threatening type of thing. But what
about all the little teas, the everyday the disappointments, the
(08:40):
job loss, the breakup. What about that? What about those folks?
They may not have a big enough quote trauma to
bring them into help, some of them because they have
stigma and barriers will never come to seek help. How
do we take what we learn about optimism the genetic
kind and then turn it into a set of practices,
because really, that's what the researchers found, is that there
(09:02):
are skills that optimists do. It's not magic. It's really
not magic. Some people are just gifted and they're born
with this natural tendency, right. But really, what you find
in the brain when you do brain scans is that
people with optimism, they have more activity in a certain
part of their brain, in the left part. Yeah, so
you can see. So if I gave you an exercise,
(09:23):
and if you're an optimist, you're gonna be like, I
show you a picture of a car accident. Na, na, Na,
They'll get fine, they'll get medical treatment, we'll go back
to work three days, three days. The pessimists will see
the same thing, and they're going to have more activity
in the right part of the brain, and they're gonna
be like, Nah, they're not going to get better. It's
going to take them three months. They're not going to walk,
their wife is going to leave them as a result. Like,
they'll just project the worst case and you can see
(09:44):
it on their brain scan.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
So the person that is a pessimist, is it because
maybe it's been environmental They just had a lot of
bad cards dealt to them, trauma, abuse.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
Yes, percent, What a great question, and I love what
you're asking me because you're right, it's all of the above.
Like some of us just from the moment were born,
were hardwired. It could be intergenerational traumas to think of,
like our parents themselves were abused, were neglected, were incarcerated,
had untreated mental illness, substance abuse. So all of this
(10:22):
what we call like they call them adverse childhood events.
And it could be your parents getting divorced, your parent
not getting treated for illness, your parents fighting a parent,
leaving a parent, getting anything. And all of us probably
have at least one of these, and you know something something,
everybody's got something. So pessimism can come from your parents
(10:43):
having experienced trauma and it's already kind of baked into
your own genes. It could be the mental health history
in your family that there's people in your family that
have depression and it's been passed on to you. And
then the cards you're dealt one hundred percent, But the
thing is in spite of all of this what we
call genetic loading. That you might have had a family
(11:05):
history of pessimism, of depression, your own history of trauma,
you can still change the way you look, because when
you change the way you look, your life changes, your
outcomes changes. And that's how optimism differs practical optimism, because
it's not just having a positive outlook, it's turning those
positive outlooks into positive outcomes through action.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Wow, you've said so much as far as intergenerational trauma
and how a woman carrying it can it can be
in the womb and passed down. I'm like, Lork, can
we inject some positivity into the.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Sperm and the egg?
Speaker 3 (11:45):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Can we inject some skill?
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Some starburds something so that because it's like, it's unfair
to that child.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
They're just like, I'm just here.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
And as a result of me involuntarily being here, I
have depression. So even for me, I have dealt with depression.
I have found a way where if there is an
event that's caused me to well, Okay, So for instance,
this June twenty twenty three, I went through something in
(12:22):
some friendship but I noticed maybe it was depression, but
I got physically ill. My depression has been the type
where it puts me in the bed for days.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
I don't eat, I'm not.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Able to wash up, and just normal hygiene things. So
I was trying so hard. Nope, you're not going to
go back there. You're not going to go back there.
To the point where I think my response was like, Okay,
you're feeling this hurt, and maybe you're feeling hurt or
betrayed or overlooked or misunderstood. I got physically ill talking
(13:04):
to my mother about people and my family with depression.
She's had depression, her sister had depression, but I feel
like it was situational because she had a child that
was still born. But we looked at my father and
she admitted that it's a possibility that it had he
been diagnosed, him and his.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Father, so my grandfather.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
And my dad would have been bipolar.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
So then here I come, and I think all of
my siblings have dealt with some form of depression, but
mine started in the seventh grade, and I'm like, what
do I have to be depressed about in the seventh grade.
So hearing you and other psychiatrists talk about how it
(13:52):
can be passed on passed down or I was bullied,
and I'm not saying me not knowing how to respond
to bulled maybe that can make a child depressed. I
would love for you to just help us unpack I
guess what I'm talking about, especially talking about depression so
young in the seventh grade, but the whole genetic piece
(14:16):
of that. Yes, you know, I said a lot by
the way.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
You know, but thank you so much for first of
all being so open about it, because we need we
need this, you know, like when someone looks at you
like they would never know, like if they didn't know
your story, they would just say she's fabulous, like things
have worked out for her, like nobody would ever think.
And that's the problem is people think that these two
things are incompatible with each other. They almost put people
in two buckets, like you're either successful or you've had depression,
(14:41):
Like they don't put it together them successful people often
live with depression and it's and and all the success
they achieved might be in spite of it or like
working really hard to fight it or to not let
it take over. So thank you for sharing that. And yes,
so you know it's very interesting. Depression is a very
complex illness in that now we're getting more understanding that
(15:01):
the inflammation can be a part of it. So like
our things like our diet can play a role. Exercise
can help boost and kind of mitigate some of the
symptoms of depression by increasing dworphans in the brain and
serotonin and certain chemicals BDNF brain derived neurotrophic factors. So
there's all these things that can help us kind of
(15:22):
like fight against this maybe genetic predisposition, because when you're
talking about untreated bipolar disorder in the family, bipolar disorder
is highly highly like what we call genetically like transmitted
or heritable and like passed on and from parent to child.
And what we also see is that people who have
bipolar disorder in the family often will also have first
(15:46):
degree relatives, so like a sibling or a child which
has just straight up depression unipolar depression, like bipolar is
both the mania and then the low the high highs
and the lo lows, and unipolar is just the lows.
So definitely, it's like it's like for you, like it
sounded like hitting from both sides, Like you know, you've
got the dad and the grandparent and the mom and
(16:06):
your mom's sisters, so it's understandable. Like the likelihood or
the chances of the child having it if both parents
have had something in the form of a mood disorder
is absolutely very high. And then you add in environmental
pressures of the like the bullying, which is very damaging,
like bullying one percent increases your risk for all sorts
(16:30):
of problems like anxiety, depression, academic challenges. Because Michelle, one
of our fundamental needs as human being is belonging and
knowing that we matter to our peers, to feel like
we fit in and to feel like we have a
place in our society and in our community. And so
absolutely there's no reason why a seventh grader couldn't have depression,
(16:51):
especially if it's in the family.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
To begin with, that's so good, that's so good.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
And you know, when you're at that age, you don't
have the language. I didn't have the language in the
nineties for depression. I knew of loopus cancer. Just trying
to think of things family members have gone through, maybe
pneumonia at that time, aids what.
Speaker 4 (17:15):
Depression, Yeah, no, part of it, no, And culturally yeah,
and culturally right like mm hmm, like communities of color
it's just not talked about, it's not understood, it's frowned upon.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Their stigma. They're shame. There's blame, and like how can
we also forget like just the role like I think women, right,
Like women go through so much, so much is expected
of them. They are the matriarchs in many of our communities,
and so I feel like we become each other's support system.
But like there's so many and you have to be tough, right,
you have to put on a tough face, a brave face.
(17:51):
That so much is like you are the leader and
you are the pillar in your community. Right, So, like
when I think about like moms and aunts, they're cooking,
their home is open, people are coming in, and like
you don't even get a minute. You don't have the
luxury of being depressed, Like depression can be seen as
a luxury sometimes, right, Like you know, get up, pick
(18:12):
it up, move it. People are relying. You've got kids
to take care of. Like, so I feel like there's
a lot of layers and culture plays and ethnicity plays
a big role in this whether you're allowed to even
be depressed.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
So culturally, are you finding a certain culture more optimistic
than others?
Speaker 3 (18:36):
You know, you know, it's such a great question because
they what they were finding with this genetic study is that,
for example, Asians, they were thinking, may be more likely
to pessimism and depression. And I find that so interesting
because just yes, there's a genetic component to it, but
there's also like culturally, like racism, bias, discrimination, all of
(18:58):
this affects our biology. When we're experiencing that we don't
we're not made to feel like we belong, whether it's
on a cultural level, maybe it's the color of our skin,
or we're just bullied because for no reason, and all
of that. I put that in a similar bucket where
it starts to chip away at our morale, you know,
(19:20):
and something like nine to eleven terrorism can do that.
It chips away at your morale, your sense of safety.
You're like, you feel threatened, someone is out to get me,
someone doesn't have my back. I'm not safe, I'm not protected.
People don't like me. And however you want to call that,
whether it's bullying in seventh grade, or whether it's like
I'm a woman of color moving in the world and
(19:42):
the world doesn't see me as equal to them, you know,
any number of things, and I feel like when you
look at people's chromosomes, what we find is that there's
more stress. They're telomeres, which are the ends of the chromosomes.
These pieces end up getting oxidative stress, and they end
up becoming shorter, and it makes our biological age older
than our actual chronological age. So like if you're thirty
(20:06):
thirty five, yep, you and if someone looked at your chromosomes,
I'll be like, you look like a fifty year old.
Like on the inside, Oh.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
I want, I want you to look at my chromosome.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
I want to get We will have extra you know,
glasses and visions hopefully for that. But when they do
the genetic testing, they'll look and you know what really
is interesting shell It's like something like meditation can prevent
that oxidative stress. So they found moms. They put young
moms who are undergoing a lot of stress, and they
put one in like a control group, and they didn't
do anything for them, and then they put another one
(20:39):
in like a meditation mindfulness group, and those women, over
time showed a younger biolog like comparatively to those who
did nothing, a younger biological age because the meditation protected them.
So just because they are all these forces and factors,
and it's understandable why people are feeling down these days,
like inflation, war, right, like our country is, you know, strife.
(21:03):
There's so many things happening politically. We don't feel protected
and safe by and taken care of by our leaders.
We don't have health care as a basic we don't
have education as a basic right. Like to me, the
marker of a humane society is providing people their basic needs.
And when we look at like the World Happiness Index,
who are these top five countries? Who are these top ten?
The Scandinavian countries are always winning because women have rights, right,
(21:26):
they have positions and boards. So you can't have half
your population. If half your population as women be neglected,
left behind, not being given options, and then you don't
give them healthcare on education, look like you're screwed as
a society, you know. So I'm like, I'm pretty impressed.
I'm pretty impressed that Americans for the most part, are optimistic.
Of all countries I heard that like certain parts of
(21:48):
the world where women don't have rights, you know, the
optimism and the hot happiness fall, like in Afghanistan, they
are like the lowest on the happiness index, and happiness
and optimism are not quite the same. But this idea
that I have hope for better tomorrow, right, Like, I'm
impressed because I feel like, generally speaking, maybe compared to
other countries in the United States, we do women. You know,
(22:10):
I feel blessed enough, even coming from an immigrant family,
being a woman of color. Yes, I'm still grateful for
whatever opportunities I've had that I know I wouldn't have
had in other places. So as much as there's wrong
in this country, there's also a lot of positivity and
right So we have to balance it the good and
the bad.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Yeah. Yeah, it's something that you were talking about, say
like women in Afghanistan who know they want rights. Yeah,
and I can imagine wanting something that you know you're
supposed to have, you know is a right. So I'm
with you when you say you can understand why there's
(22:48):
no optimism, there no happiness there going through the motions,
which was a question that I have for you a
little later, So say what we were just talking about
women in certain parts of the world world who don't
have rights, or people in America who don't have access
to healthcare and education, but you're told that, no matter
(23:10):
how dire or difficult a situation is, you should maintain
a positive mindset. And this is coming from verywellmined dot com.
They were talking about toxic positivity, why it's harmful, and
what to say instead. Well, we're not going to go
through that anyway, but so for those of you listening,
you're like toxic positivity. So toxic positivity apparently is the
(23:33):
belief that, no matter how dire or difficult a situation is,
people should maintain a positive mindset. But in this article,
it's saying that it's toxic to always think positive. So
as we're talking about you don't have health care, you
don't have education, you're living paycheck to paycheck. I was
serving at a food pantry in Florida a few months ago,
(23:56):
and there were people that had what you would consider
to be newer model cars. One woman said, I work
at well, she works at a certain delivery logistics company,
and she said, I'm still living paycheck to paycheck and she's.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
In the line to get food.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
But you want to tell me to be positive, So
what is your take? Is there is that or such
thing as being yes too positive?
Speaker 3 (24:28):
Yes, yes, and you know it's it's telling someone to
just get over things, to look on the bright side,
everything will work itself out, right. Those are the toxic
positive statements where you may be well intentioned, but maybe
you just don't know the right thing to say to
somebody and so instead you said, like, just get over it,
and that makes them feel dismissed. And you know, toxic
(24:51):
positivity is telling someone to look on the bright side
without really understanding the gravity of what they are going
through and with out validating their experience. So a more
helpful statement would be to acknowledge the hardship, to say, like,
I see how hard you're working. I see how challenging
this is. This must be extremely frustrating, and at the
(25:13):
same time so recognizing the reality of the situation, which
can be quite dark and grave and devastating. Like sometimes
when I have patients who tell me something really horrible
that has happened or happening, Like if I were to
be like, yeah, man, just get over it, that's not
going to work, they'll be like, you know, peace out,
I'm not coming back to you. What do you mean,
(25:34):
you know, just get over it, right, So you have
to sit with them and grief. Grief is not just
about the things that you've lost, but there are also
the things that you never gained, maybe the milestones in life,
like during the pandemic, people didn't get to celebrate a graduation,
a retirement party, or they didn't get to say their
last goodbye to a loved one who might have been
(25:54):
in the hospital and dying. Right, So it's not just
things that are lost, but it's also things that you
never had that you wish or wanted. So what you're
talking about, Michelle, like the sort of paycheck to paycheck life, like,
that's that's where we're at. You know this, The studies
show that even people were making like a fit let's
say family for household income is like two hundred twenty
five thousand these folks, which is triple the meeting income
(26:18):
in the United States, they still can't make it, you know,
sort of day to day And when I look at
like private for example, when I talk to people who
are in Europe and they're like, oh my, I went
through this fabulous education. I only paid like, you know,
the equivalent of four or five thousand out of my
pocket in Euros the whole year. And they're like, you know,
in the United States, this would have been an eighty
(26:39):
thousand dollars a year undergrad tuition, And I'm just like,
there's no world in w which our undergraduation should be
that kind of money. That is like serious money, and
it just makes me sad, and really hard working people
just you need to catch a break so that you
can get out from underneath debt and you know, and
(27:01):
be able to get to the next level. Like you,
if you don't have the backing, you're not even going
to be able to get the education that might help
you move to the next level. So you know, it's
not an easy thing. But at the same time, I say, like,
don't give up hope, Like practical optimism is about Okay,
if Plan A isn't going to work, I'm going to
go down the list to Plan b CD all the
way to Z. You know, can I get a job
(27:23):
that can have let's say, as one of their benefits
tuition reimbursement, college loan forgiveness. Are they willing to pay
for night school? Is there a course that I can take?
Because a lot of times I feel like we also
put walls up. We don't want to admit that we're struggling,
you know, whether it's financially or job wise. And I
(27:46):
feel like that's kind of where we get in our
own way, where we're not asking for help because we
don't want to admit to somebody else that we look
like we have it all put together, right. We've got
the newest iPhone, we've got the fancy cars you talked about,
like the designer, right, so when we look head to toe,
nails are done, all of that, and inside we're like,
oh man, I don't I don't know if my bank
(28:07):
account is going to bounce, you know. So it's this
idea of like maintaining appearances that that really scares me
because not only you're doing yourself a disservice financially, but
also mental health wise.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
That's so good.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Well, in your book Practical Optimism, you give us tools
and techniques to help us reach financial fitness and relationship goals.
So switching gears here for a minute when we're talking
about toxic positivity, But is it okay for that person
to be optimistic? But they're like, I'm living paycheck to paycheck,
(28:44):
but I know things are going to get better.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
Yeah, So I would say hold on, And in that case,
the optimism is not toxic. It's actually survival. It's actually
pushing you to keep going tomorrow because you have the
hope and the faith and the belief that things are
going to get better. I always say hope is not
just a noun, it's also a verb. So you can't
just hope and wish and want for things good things
(29:09):
to come to you.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Right.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
Part of developing an abundance mentality is absolutely having a
positive outlook. That's turning those positive outlooks into positive outcomes
by creating an action plan. Who am I gonna call?
Who am I gonna ask for help? Who's gonna take
a chance on me? If I got rejected? Am I
gonna take a break, break and a breather, And I'm
(29:32):
gonna come back out tomorrow and put on this is
what're putting on? A strong face is not the worst
thing in the world, because it means you you pick
yourself up, you doust yourself as you know, I'm telling
I'm telling you know like that that such a beautiful line,
you know, like from you know, I think it was
a Oliah.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Pick yourself, yes, yeah, dust yourself off and try again again.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
And by the way, I should tell you your music
has had you know, your music your spirit, like everything
that you have done by yourself with Destiny's Child, just
you bring so much love and beauty and positivity into
the world. So thank you. I was I was a
kid and I have to growing up listening to you know,
in high school and all of it.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
And just so you're am I am I older than you?
Is that what you're saying is.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
I think you're younger, but you know when you're when
you see someone so fabulous, you're like, they must be
more experienced, they must be more accomplished. But I've been
telling you so funny.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
It's that I am in the age where I do
have to accept people are saying I grew up listening
to your music.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Yeah, so yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
Put you feel good. It's a possibility you could have
been older than me but still grew it growing listening
to the music. And it's okay, listen, doctor Barma. I
am optimistic as it relates to aging. I'm excited about it.
I'm excited about all the collagen pills and drinks and
(30:59):
all the things that I can that are gonna keep
me looking looking good, y'all. I promise you this is
a part of optimism that I feel like optimism can
be fun. It's not dismissing reality. But it's also for me.
Optimism for me has been the track record, meaning have
(31:22):
you gotten through heartbreak? Have you gotten through financial stress?
Maybe you say you got through financial stress because maybe
you're like you're stewarding the finance is better. Maybe you're
ordering less on certain apps you know, you're you're cooking
(31:45):
more so, or you're just trying to optimism in the
reality of what's going on. I just want us wanted
to just look at a circumstance and be like, I
can be opts domistic.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
I got through that.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
I got through that, I grew from it, and I'm
excited too, Doctor Varma, that you share that a strong
foundation of mental health is built on key habits. Okay,
the four ms of mental health mindfulness, meaningful engagement, movement
(32:23):
and mastery as it relates to COVID. And what you
saw is that something of those four ms. Was that
something that you could share during that time and now
past COVID, we are we're still seeing the effects of that.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
Yes, yes, so you know I had to come up
with this really in a very quick way. So in
twenty April twenty twenty, New York was about to hit
its peak and Global Citizen called me and they were like,
we're having all these fabulous people come on TV, you know,
Elton John and Rolling Stone, Oprah Gale whatever. I was like, great,
I'll be watching the show and they're like, no, no, no,
(33:08):
who want you to be in the show. I was like,
I don't sing, I don't dance. I don't know what
you want from me. And I'll be on my couch
like the rest of us and they're like no, no, no,
So you're going to come on and talk about something
positive and hopeful and then give people strategies and yaha.
And I was like, oh great. So like I have
an hour and they're like no, no, you have fifty
nine seconds. And I was like fifty nine seconds? How
(33:29):
am I going to and carry? Washington was actually introducing me,
and I was like fifty nine seconds first of all
to follow her and I love her at work, and
then I was like, okay, well what do I say
that's going to add value? And that's where I came
up with. I was like, okay, in fifty nine seconds,
if I could impart the CrOx of what good mental
health is. So, look, it's not going to substitute therapy,
(33:49):
the individual work that's done one on one when somebody
really investigating to know you. That's not going to take
the place of it. But what do I tell my patients?
So even when they come to me and they're like, oh,
I went through a job, books, I went through divorce,
I'm still taking a three sixty inventory about their life
and I want to know about their diet and their
habits and their friendships. So if I had to break
(34:09):
down good mental health in fifty nine seconds, and we
have a few more mindmentes of that. But meaningful engagement
is my favorite. What I love about that is telling
people there's two levels of relationships. There's the social snacking,
the micro connections, which is like the barista, the dog walker,
making superficial connections. That is just as important. The activity partner.
(34:32):
Maybe have a friend that you go cycling with or
go to a power yoga class with like that is
totally okay and necessary. Activity partners. We need those. You're
at work, the water cooler, at the elevator, talk to people,
make eye contact, smile, ask them how they're doing, Listen
wait for the response, say something meaningful back, or just
say I hear you. You know if you don't know
(34:54):
the right thing. So that's social snacking. That's the micro connection.
That's part of meaningful engagement. But also I want people
to go deep, have the one on one sit down,
how are you doing? And then be real take the
mask off, because so many of times we're posturing and posing.
Everything is great, my relationship is great, my money is great.
This is the biggest If I were to be like,
what is one of the biggest causes of unhappiness. It's
(35:17):
this need to seem like we're successful and that we
have it all together, and that is getting in the
way of real, authentic, honest conversations between people. So go deep,
be vulnerable, share something about yourself with the trusted people
in your life, and then also have your light fluffy
activity partner. Social snacking, micro connections, mindfulness. Just do something
(35:39):
one at a time. If you're talking to someone, that's
all you're going to do your washing dishes, that's all
they can do. And make should listen to your podcast,
by the way, so you know while they're doing something.
But whatever you do, do it wholeheartedly. Do it meaningfully.
You know, if you're going for a walk, be in
the moment and walking by the way is a great
way to get out of your own head because it's
(36:00):
something called optic flow where you have to look left,
you have to look right, make sure no one's running
over you with a car, and that gets you out
of the rumination in your own head. But mindfulness could
be deep breathing, it could be meditation. There's so many
benefits of meditation. So we've covered meaningful engagement, we've covered mindfulness.
You know, I would say part of mindfulness. I was
interviewed earlier in January by the New York Times by
(36:24):
a well wellness their wellness section, and it was called
Oasis moments. So it's about taking five minutes maybe have
a little meditation corner, a little zenden in your home
if you will, put a little cushion on the floor
and create a sacred space where you're just gonna breathe.
It could literally be in your bathroom. Like I'm a
mom and when my kids were young, it was the
only place where maybe maybe two minutes, they would let
(36:47):
me just be because but pretty soon they'd be knocking,
you know, soon. But the bathroom floor was kind of
my zend and it sounds kind of funny, or medical training,
the utility closet, like I'd be like, I'm gonna go
get those needles and the I'll be right back, and
I would just go in there and breathe for two minutes.
So mindfulness can create. It's about intention and creating a
(37:07):
sacred space of just going inward and breathing, or if
you're talking to somebody or whatever, just doing it single mindedly.
And then there's mastery. And I did two days. It
was a six day well challenge with the New York Times.
In the sixth day it was a Friday, and they're like,
we want you to bring or the fifth or sixth
day was the end of the week, and they're like,
how can people unwind without turning into you know, digital
(37:32):
or watching or streaming. And it was called low stakes
flow state where mastery you don't have to be a
master to experienced mastery. They asked me how do you
experience mastery? And I was like, I'm not very good
at it, but so all said dancing. And so for me,
like in medical school, it helped me, like you know,
I've been like shaking it to like Mark Anthony and
I love music. Your music, like just music helps me
(37:55):
just live and be happy and kind of get that
out of my own academic intellectually, you know, be with people,
and I love music from that part of the world.
I feel like it's just very uplifting and yeah, so
flow and mastery. It could be cooking, it could be gardening,
it could be painting, it could be a lot of
people into weaving and needle point like all of that
sort of creative making something you know and you don't
(38:17):
have to be good at it and it doesn't have
to be for anyone else but yourself. And then the
last one is movement. And this can be in any form,
but we do know that exercise not only does it
boost your mood, but it also boosts your sense of
purpose in life. So if anyone's listening to this and
they're like, I don't know what I want to do.
I don't really feel called to do anything big. I'm bored,
I'm lonely, I'm feeling empty, I don't know I want
(38:39):
to make a career pivot and I'm not feeling inspired.
Go for a workout, thirty minute workout, do whatever you
can weightlifting for women is great. It decreases like again,
it boosts your cognitive health cortisol. Yeah, totally decreasing the cortisol.
And you know what's really interesting is if you're like, oh,
I want to be mentally sharper, right after your exercise
(39:01):
is the best time because your attention, your concentration, your memory,
everything is boosted. So maybe leave the most difficult task.
If you have a really annoying email to put together,
or a project that you're like, I need creativity and
they don't have it, schedule a workout session and immediately afterwards,
like bring your laptop, and if you're lucky enough to
be at a gym or wherever it is, you are
just hit that most difficult to do less task right
(39:24):
after exercising. So those are the four ams of mental health.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
That is so I promise you, y'all. After I've had
a great workout, it never fails. I feel like I
literally can climb on top of a building rooftop and
fly nothing harmful.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Guys.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
I literally feel like I could imaginary wings are gonna
just come out, and I can just do anything.
Speaker 3 (39:50):
That's all, and.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Y'all, everything that doctor Sue Varma has mentioned is free.
You don't have to have a gym membership. You can
do squats, walk in a park, go find a safe
space in a park. Everything is free, y'all. My mother
cracked me up because I was like, Mom, you live
in a pretty nice neighborhood, like people golf behind your hounds.
(40:17):
I need you to go work outs, okay, I need
you to go.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
I need you to go walking.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
And she says, I don't have any walking shoes. I
go and buy her two different colors of walking shoes.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Why don't have socks.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
I'm like, if you don't go, you know, it was
so funny because she was wanting this expensive gym membership.
I'm like, you're not taking advantage of the beauty of
go walk with the There's a group of women who
like to walk. They have their neon vests on, you know,
walking around the neighborhood. So basically, guys, what I'm saying
(40:55):
is to be well.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
It does not break your bank. It just means you
just have.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
To give ten minutes, ten to twenty minutes of your
day somehow just taking care of you. And again, everything
you name is free. There are ways to listen to
music for free. Y'all know how to do it. You know,
there are ways to whether it's a legal or not,
I don't know, but there are ways to listen to
(41:24):
music for free. And I am so glad that you y'all.
She's given close to forty five minutes here of just
pouring to us about the importance of being optimistic. But
at the same time, you know, not dismissing your reality
and how you treat people who are.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
Going through something.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
Don't dismiss what they're saying. But you can look into
the face of hardship and maybe look at your track
record from before and be like, I'm gonna make it
through this. I made it through the last hardship. I'm
gonna get through this one. Nothing is wrong with that, y'all.
Doctor Suvarma, I'm so excited about your book.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
Thank you, kudos to you for sharing.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
And last question for you is the podcast is checking
In and the foundation of it is mental health. How
have you been doing as it relates to you have
had to be teach us about being optimistic in the
face of a lot of traumatic events.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
So for you, what has that done to you?
Speaker 3 (42:36):
Yes, so you know, Michelle, I'm very open about the
fact that like I see my own mental health as
something that I have to work on every day, Like
I don't want to take for granted. Like I feel
so blessed and called to do the work that I do,
and a lot of it involves me to roll up
the sleeves and getting the trenches with the people that
I work with and go through what they're going through
(42:57):
so that I can understand their hardship, so that I'm
not speaking from you know, up here, like you know,
I'm better. I've been through you know a lot myself personally,
and I talk about in the book in fact, it's
the opening chapter of my own personal breakdown, if you will.
And then how I came to learn about therapy, you know,
and how that's made me a better therapist, and how
(43:17):
that's made me a better person, you know, and like
all of the things that I talk about in the book. Yes,
I wanted to make sure everything was science backed, and
I did tons and tons of research, but I also
didn't want to put a single thing in their book
that I haven't used on myself and practice on myself
and with my patient. So the four ms of mental Health,
(43:37):
I think of it as a prescription and back in
the day when we had prescription pads and doctors used
to write them before we went from to electronic, I
would write on my pad, you were going to exercise,
you were going to you know. I didn't have the
language of the four ms of the time, but it was.
It's now like a non negotiable for me, like I
am going to finish with you and before I see
my next patient, I have a little time and I'm
(43:59):
going to run to the gym every single day. It's
non negotiable. I'll pick up the phone and call a friend.
So I put them in my life. You have to schedule,
think of if you take nothing else from this conversation,
The easiest thing to walk away with today tangible tool
and tip is the four MS Mindfulness, Movement, mastery, meaningful engagement,
And just populate your calendar with when am I seeing
(44:20):
a girlfriend in person? When am I going to go
to the gym? When am I going to go for
ten minute walk? And I hope that your mom listens
to this conversation and is like, all right, I'm putting
that neon vest On and I'm putting those bright sneakers
and I'm going because if I can share with you.
My mother in law is beautiful, lovely, very healthy, healthy,
very youthful, but like it's is also like I got
(44:42):
to push her. She lives across from this beautiful park
and is in driving distance ten minutes to the beach,
and those are two things that I love, being in
nature and the ocean, and I can't get her to go.
And it's like maybe sometimes people take it for granted
when they're surrounded by beauty, you know, And I'm just like, please,
like your health and your life depend on it. So
I know what it's like to love someone and to
(45:04):
care about their well being. I went through this with
my mom as well, and it was really hard. Like
you can have all the knowledge in the world, but
if like somebody in your life isn't ready to absorb it,
Like you know, sometimes you feel like, oh my god,
I'm bangging my head against the wall. But I'm not
going to give up because I'm a practical optimist. I'm
going to keep trying. And I hope you keep trying
with Mama Williams over that.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
Now, that's her, Mama Williams.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
That is amazing.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
So y'all, doctor Rahma is practicing what she literally preaches
the four Ams, and y'all, her nail color is so pretty.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
I peeped it.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
It's like light or it's so pretty. I'm going to
try that color.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
It's beautiful.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Thank you, Thank you so much. I'm so excited about
your book, Practical Optimism, y'all. Practical Optimism the art, science,
and practice of exceptional well being. Y'all.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
We deserve it.
Speaker 1 (45:59):
We deserve with so much going on in our environment,
you deserve to take care of you and have exceptional
well being, not just sue.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
Thank you for checking in.
Speaker 3 (46:11):
Thank you, thank you so much for having me. What
a great conversation. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (46:15):
Absolutely, you are welcome to come back anytime.
Speaker 2 (46:21):
What a wonderful conversation.
Speaker 1 (46:23):
I know I learned some things about toxic positivity, and
you know it's it's okay to remain optimistic in the
face of adversity, but don't dismiss your reality or what
someone else's reality is at the moment.
Speaker 2 (46:39):
You know, I loved it.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
Like when somebody loses a loved one, I don't think
that's the time to say Heaven needed an angel.
Speaker 3 (46:46):
Chi.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
I don't want heaven and have the angel. I want
my angel here on earth. And I know we say
things and we do mean well, but you know, sometimes
it's okay to not say anything. Sometimes it's okay to
just sit with the person in their grief or in
their disappointment. Now, me, personally, I don't want to sit
too long, you know.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
But I will sit with my friends.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
I'll sit with loved ones, you know, while they're grieving
or while they're going through But I will say, sometimes grief,
when you don't go through those stages of loss, grieving
a lass, it can turn into depression. And so listen, y'all.
I just ugh, I just know what that season was like.
(47:34):
I know I personally do not want to go back
to that season, but I do understand just sitting in
a moment of grief, sadness, disappointment.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
I get it.
Speaker 1 (47:46):
You want to acknowledge, Hey, this is what it is.
But I think now we have so many tools that
are accessible to us so that we don't have to
stay down too long.
Speaker 2 (47:59):
All right.
Speaker 1 (48:00):
I just thank y'all so much for checking in downloading
the episodes. I'm excited and I'm looking forward to season four.
All right, I love y'all. There's nothing you can do
about it okay. Now that might be toxic. I don't know,
but I don't care. You're gonna get this love. Checking
(48:50):
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