February 23, 2021 • 51 mins
For the final week of Black History Month, Michelle talks to Ilyasah Shabazz, the daughter of Malcolm X and Betty Shabazz. They discuss the work and legacy of her parents, growing up under tremendous influence, the state of our society and self care in the midst of it all. This episode reminds you to CHECK IN on what you are doing for your community!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Checking In with Michelle Williams, a production of
My Heart Radio and The Black Effect. Hey everyone, it's
(00:20):
Michelle Williams. Has been trying, okay and for what We
haven't even gotten into the year, and it's kind of
been bonkers. But I really want us to come together
as a community to support each other, lean on each other,
and inspire each other. We have come through times of
hardships and we shall always prevail. So I can't wait
(00:42):
for you to hear my next guest with her words
of inspiration and power right now on Checking In with
Michelle Williams. This is a really important podcast I'm sharing
(01:07):
with you today. This podcast is definitely based on my
mental health journey. Um it's also based on the book
of the same name. But today my guest Aliyasa, she
has me checking back in on my journey of faith.
Today's theme of strength and as a community, and I
(01:28):
believe you guys are gonna hear some inspiring word from
this amazing, powerful guest that will help us continue to
prevail through these difficult times in our country and in
the world. This recording today is something very special, something
very spiritual. My palms are sweating because I have the
(01:51):
privilege and the honor to have Alyasa Shabas checking in
with us today. Aliyasa is an author, an educator, professor,
an activist, and she is the daughter of Malcolm X
and Betty Shabaz. Y'all please welcome Ilyasa Shabaz. Thank you
(02:15):
so much. It's such an honor to be here with you. Michelle.
I was really looking forward to this because I thought
this was going to just be relaxing, living room kind
of conversation. And I tell you, it's been a long year,
so I was looking forward to not a long day.
It's been a very long year. It's been a long year.
(02:39):
And we are two months into the new year. And
in this new year, you released a book in January
called The Awakening of Malcolm X, and it is an
account of his adolescent years in prison. And I know
that this is what you've been doing all year long.
Not only all year long, You've been doing this all lifelong.
(03:03):
Yes I have. I've been doing this for a while.
And you know, I've had many people asked me, when
did I know I was going to step in my
father's shoes or or something like that, And you know,
it's definitely not stepping into anyone's shoes. It's not taking
someone's legacy. It's the way my mother raised her girl.
(03:24):
She always said to me, ah yahsa, just as one
must drink water, one must get back. And you know,
she was this example, in spite of having six daughters,
that we felt comfortable enough when our girlfriends had questions.
If I didn't have the answer, I knew my mother
(03:44):
had the answer. So we always, you know, we will
bring our friends over to ask my mother questions that
we needed answers or encouragement or solutions, and she was
just always there. And so someone who has such compassion, trust,
love also unconditional, makes it easy for you to be
(04:05):
the same. And so here you go. Yeah. Well, literally
I was telling your publicists, I said, thank you so much.
You know, we have an hour, and I was like,
this conversation could easily go into two hours because I
keep finding questions and things to ask, and you kind
of went into something that I wanted to ask you, saying, um,
(04:27):
I wasn't even gonna ask this soon in in our conversation.
But did you ever feel pressure to keep up the
legacy of your parents Malcolm X and Betty Shabazer. Do
you feel it was just a natural duty or progression
knowing that this would be a part of your purpose
and or assignment. Never? Never, I mean, I'm gonna say, yes,
(04:49):
there was lots of pressure today everything this was a
part of my duty and assignment. Never did I ever say, hey,
you know what, this is what I want to do. Never.
Just something that happened. And and that's why I think
it's important that we focus on the things that we're
passionate about as opposed to things that's just going to
(05:09):
make us money and help us pay the bills. You know,
God gives us certain talents. Right. I'm happy that I'm
so compassionate. I'm happy that I'm so loving. My mother
showed me how to do that. My mother showed me
how to care, and that was by her caring so
much for her daughters and loving us, I mean, to
(05:32):
the highest power. I'm so grateful that I had an
opportunity to experience that in a mother and someone that
I could call my best friend. I love my mother
so much. You know, my mother, she was just amazing.
She set me flowers, she set me, you know, clothes
in a box. Come on, tell me, come downstairs when
(05:54):
I from a breakup and put a little you know,
pretty ring on my hand to let me know. You know, listen,
you have to love yourself. You have to know yourself
so that you are not waiting for someone else to
determine your value, right, you have to already know it.
And and so I'm so grateful for those kinds of
(06:15):
things that my mother gave me. So by the time
I went to college, people these enormous expectations. They were
so enormous, and you know, I was raised like love, peace, joy,
you know, kind of, and that was not who they
thought Malcolm X was when I went to college. Now,
(06:39):
when I was in high school, when I was you know,
going to summer camp, Oh, I gotta stuff, it didn't matter,
right because other people's parents also, you know, did great things.
And so when I went to college out of my
mother's home, out of her protective wing, from underneath her
protective wing, oh my gosh, people chase me all around campus.
(06:59):
I your Malcolm X's dorty. Why didn't you tell me?
And I was like, oh my god. So I called
my sister and you know, I said, auntel him, Like
what am I supposed to do? Because this was a
lot of pressure, and she said, you don't have to
pass the test to be Malcolm X's Dorty. You already are.
Maybe you are always good enough and that's something that
(07:22):
we can use just in life. You already are, You
already are, And these words are gonna help someone that
feel like they have to feel or do exactly like
I know people whose parents are ministers, pastors as well
and they feel like they have to do that, or
mom is a doctor, I better go to medical school too,
(07:46):
you know. But you are filling me up because you're
talking about the impact and the impartation that your mother
gave to you. She built you to to be or
poured in you to be strong, confident, and like you said,
you already know who you are. You already know your
(08:07):
your father's daughter, your mother's daughter is like does my DNA?
Did you check my birth certificate to even see? But
the power in the statement you already are, that's right,
and you know it doesn't happen just like that. But
when I look back at my mother, right, just really
(08:30):
amazing woman with all that she had gone through as
the wife of Malcolm X, the wife of a man
who challenged a government that was historically unjust to its
own people, that she was still so kind, loving. And
what she did is she made sure that her six daughters.
(08:50):
Come on, tell it, six y'all, six six daughters. And
let me tell you. My father was like like almost
six five six ft five. She was like five five nine,
and they had six tall, opinionated daughters. And you know,
(09:12):
my mother made sure that we learned about the significant
contributions that women made to the world, the significant contributions
that Islam made to the world, and the significant contributions
that people of the African diaspora, people of First world lands,
people of you know, indigenous people made to the world.
(09:35):
So we grew up with a really solid sense of ourselves.
Our identity was intact, and I think that is extremely important.
You know, when we look at our education, you know, curriculum,
look at look at what our children are learning. They're
not learning anything good about themselves, right and and and
so I might be jumping ahead a bit, but you know,
(09:58):
when we think of slavery, for example, right now, think
about just the generational trauma to live like that your
entire life, right then, your entire life. And so do
you feel we are seeing that generational trauma play out
(10:19):
more in this generation. It shouldn't be more in this generation.
I think that it was more in the previous generations.
You know, because today look at this, look at these marches,
the protests, and the demonstrations that happened. People went to
the streets, say, and they organized in fifty states and
(10:42):
in the US and eighteen countries abroad. You know, people black, white, red, green, purple, African,
um Asian, everyone, everyone, And it was all about humanity. Yes,
they said black lives matter. Right, because now we're because
of we're isolating ourselves quarantine, global pandemic, we're forced to
(11:05):
watch these you know, brutal killings of innocent people. So
you know, there's just so so many directions we can
take this. There's so so many directions we can take this.
Because now I'm wondering, since you're we're talking about the
movement of black Lives matter, do you think had it
not been for the work and legacy of your father
(11:27):
and mother, would we be here today or would we
have been empowered to speak up as we do now?
Would you have been as empowered you know as an educator, right,
It's funny that you say that because that's what my
father did for us. You know, he gave us shock treatment, right,
He let us know, Look, if someone is doing these
(11:52):
horrific things to your wives, to your children, if they're
blowing up churches and your children are dying, what are
you going to do? You're nothing but a chump. Right.
That was that was like shock treatment so that we
can say, oh, we we do have the freedom to
(12:14):
protect our families. Yes, you have the freedom to do
these things. So I think that it was good. I mean,
you know, listen, my father is quoted fifty three point
seven thousand times per hour in social media, and there
is evidence that young people want to know the truth
about Malcolm X, right, they want toruth about Malcolm X.
(12:37):
They're looking for leaders who are wise and who speak truth.
And we know Malcolm spoke truth and truth is time.
Sure did he? Sure did? I mean, when you talk
about the knife that's put in nine inches and whether
you pull it out six inches, it's still a wound.
Let's still address the wound. Whether you keep it in there,
pull it, it's still a wound. Let's address that. You know.
(12:59):
So my father said, if you if you take a
knife and you put it in my back nine inches
and you only pull it out six inches. The knife
is still in my back. Come on, that's what I
was getting too. Yes, yeah, the knife is still in
my back. So let's pull the knife all the way
out and address the wound that's left made. Because look
(13:22):
at what happened and how long slavery lasted. And if
we're going to control the narrative, then we can say,
instead of slaves, you know, our our ancestors, how about
we say, had it not been for those refined and
industrious African and Indigenous people who cultivated this land and
(13:44):
turned it into a land of milk and honey, no
one would have the opportunity to call the United States
of America leader of the free world our home. And
so that's what happens when we control our narrative and
not think that we can sit back and let someone
else control it for us. Yeah, And I feel like
the only way we can control our narrative is to
(14:05):
get educated about it. Let's get educated about it first,
and then I think for us, I know, we tell
other races, specifically white people, don't just gloss over our
wounds and just don't say things like I don't see color.
We're all unit, We're all let's come united. No, we
can't gloss over our wounds, because let's really see what
(14:28):
slavery did to us. Let's see what it did. Let's
recognize what it did. I think it's the way to
get over a loss or trauma done to you. There
are certain steps that you have to do to in
order to do so. And one of those things is
definitely acknowledging, accepting and say okay, I'm facing it. Okay,
what are the steps now that I need to do
(14:48):
to move forward and heal? Yes, that's right. And if
we're want to take it a step further, come on,
help us. Come on, Yeah, don't examine me, let's examine you.
What is it about you? They had to turn me
into a slave and the manner that you did? What
(15:09):
is it about you that had to turn me into
a criminal and the manner that you did. So it's
not you know, looking at us, it's making them. What
if black people weren't forced to change? What if white
people were forced to change? Because we are always making
the adjustment, We've had to always make an adjustment, and
(15:33):
and and listen, you know, I hate to say this,
But I got white friends, you know, so it's not
this thing where you know, all white people are one way,
all black people are one way. But we're talking about
the system right systemically the people that we've seen in
our white house, you know, the the insurrectionists. Is that
(15:59):
what I mean? You know, come on, this kind of
mentality exists, So let's not look at us, Let's look
at you and why. You know, what is it that
causes you to do these kinds of things and knowing
that you can get away with it or you can
(16:21):
do the same thing. And then when we have an uprising,
just a march weird called thugs, we didn't brush the
Capitol building. I don't even know if it was ever
a thought, because we know what would have happened to us,
it had been bloodshed everywhere. Please forgive me because it's
like I I feel, you know, when your parents say
(16:41):
to respect your elders or in great people that have
gone before you, I feel like I'm not even supposed
to just because saying, how do you feel your father
Malcolm X? I feel like I'm supposed to put a
handle in front of that. But how do you think
he would have responded today? I feel like you're doing
it for him. You know, how would he would have
responded personally. I think that's why so many people, fifty
(17:02):
three point seven thousand people turned to Malcolm X, because
now they're realizing what he had this profound reaction towards
you know, they're realizing that he didn't just walk around,
you know, talking like this. He was reacting to something
that was happening. And clearly what he was reacting to
(17:24):
is the same thing that's happening today. And that is
the reason why they the reason that they turned to him.
And my father said that it would be this generation
of young leaders who would recognize that those in power
have misused power and demand change, and that they're willing
to do the necessary work to ensure that this change happens. Yeah,
(17:48):
he was prophetic in that sense, Yes, for sure. And
you know he was so young, Michelle. He was gunned
down at thirty nine, so when the world learned about him,
he was in his late twenties, you know, so that
was a very young man. And people say, oh, he changed,
he evolved, Yeah, continually evolved and a reader. He read everything,
(18:15):
more books than I can never even you know, think
about reading um, but he read consistently where consistently and
and so that is what my new book, the Awakening
of Malcolm X. Yes, yes, no, it's okay, because there
is there, y'all, There is a flow. And y'all, I
(18:36):
do know that this book came out and we are
to talk about this book. But I just please forgive
me if I didn't get to it sooner, because yes,
I do have questions about the Awakening of Malcolm X
and definitely wanting to know the moments of your own
discovery that you had of writing it. Well, Um, you know,
(18:58):
I teach a John J. College of Mental Justice in
New York City, and I have this, uh these stats.
We all know that because of a PA Juvenise, you
know all of the work that she's done on criminal justice.
But we know that there are three million people in
our nation's prison today. And while only thirty two percent
(19:21):
of our United States population are people of color, fifty
of the incarcerated population are people of color. Now what
on earth is happening? Right? And andwelve, the United States
spent eighty one billion tax payer dollars on correctional facilities,
(19:47):
not education, not after school program, not even on books
or anything in this correction of facilities. But we're just
talking about places to house all of these human bodies.
And since nineteen seventy, the incarcerated population has increased by
seven hundred percent. And this is what's happening to our
(20:12):
young people. And so when I thought about my father,
I know when he stepped foot the first time, he
was a young adolescent, also that he must have been horrified,
you know. And we never think about the humanity of
of these prisoners, of these Indians, and so it was
(20:33):
an opportunity to also look at the humanity. You know,
a lot of these young people or elders were in
the wrong play at the in the right place at
the wrong time, and held in these terrific conditions that
that aren't made for human survival, you know. And so
I discovered so many great things about my father. That
(20:56):
he was the star debater, you know, at the colony,
and that he uh studied the dictionary, not so that
he could learn how to write or learn how to read,
but so that he could know the etymology, the root words,
the origin of these words. So when asked about a
particular topic, he could understand the words that were being used.
(21:22):
And so you know, there are a lot of great
things that I discovered about my father that for me
was just so wonderful and beautiful to show that he
was already smart young man, all the things that we
saw Malcolm as an adult, that he was a lot
of those things already while he while in his youth
(21:42):
because of his parents. What about your own personal discoveries
where you're like, oh, wow, no, wonder why I like
to read this because my father read this, or I'm
sure there have been years of discovery personally. Was there
anything new within you? Not what you discovered about him,
(22:03):
but anything you discovered about you in writing it and
compiling you know things, you know, my father was just
so compassionate, and you know seeing that, you know, during COVID,
we didn't know if we were going to live. We
didn't know like what is this? What is going to happen?
(22:25):
When is it gonna come under my door? When is
it going to be my time to go? Right? So
here we are questioning our mortality. And I remember there
was this um gentleman from California who was the film
you know, a film director, and we were talking about
doing this film and there was another gentleman in Japan
(22:48):
who was a biographer and he was doing a biography
on the same time period. So the three of us
were on this phone call and we were all talking
about um, my father during this time period, this period
of his life, and I was just like, you know, Epiphany,
you guys were gonna live because there's no coincidence that
(23:10):
each of us is working on, you know, this information
of my father's life during this time period. And the
gentleman in Japan had all of this amazing information. He
had the files from someone else, because my father's files
somehow just you know, we're missing, right, But in someone
(23:31):
else's files he found poetry that my father wrote. He
found a Koran you know that my father reference. And
and so it's just a lot of these really wonderful things.
I know that I always, you know, one thing that
I can never unforget is um to be or not
to be, whether it is nobler in the mind to
(23:52):
suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortunately to take
arms against the sea of troubles by opposing. And I
know that that my alog soliloquy, and I learned it
in high school. But I learned so many other things
in high school. But it's something about that, you know,
that speaks to the urgency of participating in injustice. Right
(24:14):
to be or not to be. You're gonna be a
part of the problem, or you're gonna be a part
of the solution. And that's it. And so it just
always resonated with me. And so, of course, when I
got a little older, my father's speech that he did
at Oxford the debate, he he ends it with that beautiful,
you know, Shakespeare excerpt, and so I just always thought
(24:35):
that that was really wonderful and that's always been one
of my father's favorite speeches. Yeah, correct with me if
I'm wrong. A few moments ago, it seemed like you
were getting a little emotional and choked up there. I
saw some other interviews of you, especially when you were
talking about the Netflix UM documentary UM Who Killed Malcolm X.
I noticed the time or two where you got emotional,
(24:58):
for sure, and ibviously that is okay. What do you
do in moments? Do you just let it go? How
do you take care of you in moments like that? Well,
you know, this is my office and not really great
photographs of my mother, of my father, and of people
(25:19):
who were close to my parents. Yeah, Maya Angela, Auntie Corretta, y'all.
She gets to say, no, y'all, is she for real?
She gets to say, Auntie Corretta, we just say mrs.
She gets to say, Auntie, listen, you young people, we
(25:48):
got to up our circle. Okay, all right? But Antique Carretta, Yeah,
she was amazing. And so I just come to my
office sometimes and you know, and I just you know,
grateful that I had them in my life. When I
think about our ancestors, just grateful, you know that they
(26:09):
did all that they did for us, you know, when
we think about our ancestors on the continent, you know, scholars, scientists, astronomers, farmers.
You know that I'm just grateful and so um and
I take that time to go inside of me, and
(26:30):
I know that I'm okay and grateful to my mother
and grateful to my father and just grateful, you know,
lots of gratitude. I don't know, I even feel it
through this phone call. That you definitely have their presence
surrounding you, protecting you, loving you, and that that is
(26:50):
the place where you can go when you probably feel overwhelmed.
My podcast Checking in the Foundation of It was about
mental health and just wanting to know your thoughts on
self care and your mental health. I know you have
a safe place where you can go, even if it's
into just places of your office. Um, what are your
(27:12):
thoughts on the state of mental health today? Gosh, I
think it's so important to have a therapist, to have
someone that you can go to with, you know, with
all of your thoughts, with the challenges that you have,
you know, even when you have dreams, right, I think
(27:32):
that it's important to have someone that you can release
and share the thoughts that you have, and especially looking
at all of what we experience, things that we don't understand,
you know. I think it's absolutely important. I had a
therapist and whenever I felt a little overwhelmed, I would
(27:55):
always reach out and say can I come and see you?
You know, yeah, absolutely, I think it's extremely important. The
documentary Who Killed Malcolm X? I don't know if it
has an investigation be been reopened since it's aired. And
then what do you do if you have anger or confusion?
(28:17):
What do you do? What does Ilyasa do anger or confusion? Uh?
I don't know that I anger or confusion because there's
a lot what I tell you if y'all can see
my hands, because it's like it's stuff going to the
east to the west. I mean, it's the documentary is
(28:40):
there's a lot, there's a lot of theories, there's a
lot of intelligent perspectives. There's it could be this, it
could be that. Gotta invoke some confusion, right and I think,
you know, that's where you have to find your own balance.
I know when I found myself in a in a
difficult space. My mother had passed away, and there were
(29:03):
a lot of um interviews and things, and you know,
I had never UM. I didn't live my life in
that manner. I didn't open myself up to be you know,
critiques on you know, such a larger um scale. And
I remember traveling to the south. You know, I was
(29:26):
trying to think, like where am I gonna go and
get fortified? How am I going to fortify my village?
And the only thing I could think of was go
to the south, Drive to the south and get the
ancestors spirit, you know, go and see you know where
they spent all of this time, you know, things like that.
(29:48):
My thing is, how however, I found myself in a
tight space that I know my ancestors were in a
tighter space, and yet they thrived. And so I just
you know, call my ancestors, get that love, get that strength,
and feel the she oaks and you know, and I'm okay,
(30:11):
because it is in us, it is you. It's literally
in your blood, it's literally in your DNA to keep going.
But even those of us that are deemed strong, sometimes
it can feel overwhelming. Sometimes it's like, I don't know
about you, but there are many times I said, you
(30:32):
know what, I'm gonna go work at auto zone. I
feel like I'm more well versed in selling winshield, wipe
or fluid. Now. I know that's not my destiny purpose
in calling. And I know that's just fatigue speaking or
completely right, you know. But you're just like, listen, you know,
I don't need all that other stuff. Yeah, I com
weleetly understand, and I'm sure your your listeners also understand.
(30:57):
But of course when we see you and we hear
your voice, we're like, oh no, michall okay, And then
your tribe is gonna remind you. No, I mean to
who much has given? Definitely much is required, oh no,
to continue carrying this legacy, you have to do what
(31:17):
you have to do too. I'm not even gonna say
eliminate fatigue, because that's part of just being natural something
You get tired, you know. And but some people do
get tired to the point of they want to give up,
and they actually do give up. And it's like there
are more people counting on you to keep going and
counting on your yes to say, I'm going to keep going.
(31:38):
I'm going to keep going. But you know, when I
look at my father's life, for me, this is not
the end all be all. We are here for a
very short time and then we go to the next place,
but we have to make sure while we're here we
do what's necessary. That's why it's an important that what's
(31:59):
your value stuff? Who are you? Do you like yourself?
You know? Are you willing to compromise to have friends?
You know? Like? So it's really knowing who you are
and knowing what your values are and not compromising for
the sake of having someone or something in your life.
(32:22):
And that could eliminate the fatigue and the wanting to
give up. Because I don't know why you're saying that.
Something just came on me and was like, how dare
you O, can you tire your ticket him in the net?
Get up out there, get back in there. Don't you
sit out because you're tired. How dare you when you
think of Malcolm X, when you think of miss Betty Shabaz,
(32:45):
when you even think of when you said anti Corretta,
of course we're going to think of Martin Luther King Jr.
You know, And that just lets me know. It just
warmed my heart when you called her Auntie Corretta, because
I wanted to know, oh, along with Martin Luther King?
Has there been any movements in creating a national holiday
(33:08):
for your father, Malcolm X? Um, you know, yes, and
people keep asking and talking about it, and um, I
really would not be surprised by it happening. And I
think that when we understand that we're talking about people, right,
(33:30):
when we talk about the government, that's a body of people.
When we talk about the you know, police departments, that's
a body of people. And so new people come this
body of people can be better informed. Right there are
eight billion, six hundred million people in the world are
(33:50):
people of color, and so just imagine if we had
more faith and we were better informed, better educated. He's
the thing is that we can accomplish, but we think
that change can't happen. Then that means we're not willing
to do the work right. It means we're not willing
to do the work. But there was something else that
(34:11):
you said that I wanted to comment on. I think
about our ancestors that even when we go back to
the continent right before slavery existed, or even here in
this country before slavery existed, because we know that black people,
people of color um were thriving here and they were
(34:31):
thriving on the continent. When we look at the history
prior to Christopher Columbus, we see that this is what
life was about, scholarship, right, wisdom, and and and the
universal spirit. And so it was about giving back, doing
(34:52):
something in your community and your society before you passed
on to the next place. And when you did pass away,
it was a sell of raction because you were going
to the next place because you lived your life the
way you were supposed to. So it's like these kinds
of values, which sounds kind of corny, but they're real.
And at the end of our day when we're on
(35:14):
our deathbeds, because it's inevitable that that's going to happen. Yeah,
what do people usually talk about? And so those are
the kinds of things that you know, you make sure
that they're intact for yourself while you're young. Yes, she
has said so much that's just made me literally flill
back in my seat. I hope y'all are taking in
(35:35):
this wisdom. I don't see her doing this often, and
I am definitely appreciative of your time. The words of
your father have changed so many lives, as we can
speak of so many people. Regardless of what some person's
beliefs are, religious beliefs are, I know they were some
change in my household because of the words of your father.
(35:58):
What is something that you can say to my listeners
in the community that can leave us with inspiration and
hope right now in this difficult time, I had to
have a twofold, but just any words of hope and inspiration,
hope and inspiration, Well, let's see. You know, there is
(36:19):
a multi racial movement that's driving our nation towards a
more civilized space. Multi racial, multi gender, just you know, humans,
a synthetic identity is being born and we want to
get on that train. Our society is moving forward bigotry
(36:41):
and all its ugly hate is losing and a new
error has yet to divine itself. And I think the
lesson for our young people especially is that cheaters lose
moral character wins, and that black power, women power is
(37:01):
not exclusionary. It simply says we're coming to the table. Yeah,
and I saw some one quote that said I don't
want to see I'm taking the table, or something to
that effect. That's with the new generation. You know, it's saying, look,
you know I am here, and if you don't see me,
I will make sure you you understand and you recognize,
(37:24):
you know, all of what I should be participating I
should have as well. Yeah, well there are so many ques.
I've heard people say the seat like I brought the table.
What you're talking about, right, Oh my gosh. I'm just
sitting just here listening to you, and I am intrigued
of your belief, how big your belief is. And when
(37:49):
I say your belief, because we have to definitely increase
our level of belief, walk in something every day, what
you declare will happen. Okay, bring me into your just
a few seconds of how you believe and how you
believe big because I know you believe Big Iliasa, and
you know I believe big because of how I was raised.
(38:14):
And the reason that I do the work that I
do is because I'm so grateful that my education was intact.
And I had said something like, we need a better
education so that we understand that African American history is
American history. And if the terrorism of slavery and the
(38:38):
subsequent massacres in walls Black Wall Street in Tulsa, Oklahoma
and rose with Florida, for example, Flnton High School US
history classes to be as American as the Boston Tea Party,
then we would understand that our education is then based
on historical truths, right, and more citizens would understand the
(39:02):
necessity for reparations, and we would have the opportunity to
teach our children truth and human compassion. And if in
world's history the truth that Africa is the cradle of
the most advanced civilization that ever existed in mankind, then
Americans would appreciate the complexity of black civilizations and understand
(39:29):
that this is where all of human life began. And
so it's important that we know these things about ourselves. Right,
It's about humanity and and and and I would think
that not only our young people, but the our parents, right,
these smart, forward thinking adults. We want to make sure
(39:50):
that our young people are learning truth, historical facts, compassion, love,
self love. You know, all these things are extremely important.
Thank you so much, self love, self love. We hear
your strength, we know your legacy, we know where you
(40:11):
come from. Give us one practical because some of us
are nosy. Give us one smidget of what you do
in your day for self love? What do I do
for self love? Okay, so this is just corny. Um.
You know, I work out and she looks good with
a t good you look at you. You're absolutely beautiful,
(40:38):
gorgeous as ever. And listen, listen, listen. All I know
is you gave me hope, not hoping, inspiration. Get a
physical dictionary, y'all. Put it alongside the rest of the
books that you read. Because now when you're talking about
the dictionaries and the poetry um that you and your
father have read and everything that you can, well, first
(41:00):
of all, it's come from years of reading, um, years
of learning learning, UM, definitely should that's got to be
part of self love? How about that? But something in
your day like okay, for me, today I made a
grilled cheese sandwich. Yes, I got the skillet out. I know,
(41:20):
I'm made a grilled cheese with butter. Not not fancy margine,
I know, but my uncle's a physician. He told us
we should be using real butter. So thanks uncle, real butter.
So that's what I did today. Just it was so good.
But I know, self care is more than going to
the spa. I know, self care is what you feed yourself,
(41:43):
even what you say to yourself, who's in your environment,
and what you're meditating on. But if you care to share,
what is something that you do for I can talk
to my parents. I talked to my you know, parents,
I talked to God. I talked to my ancestors. When
I mean, you know support, I'm like, I mean, where
else can you go? Where else can you really get them?
(42:06):
Where you can trust? You can trust those areas that
you just mentioned, Okay, although that's safe in a trusted
and true place where you go. I was like, does
she eat ice cream sandwich? Well? You know what I make?
I make and I couldn't wait to have it because
it also gives you a burst of energy. I make
(42:26):
um and my vita thing via mix or the blender whatever,
and that thing is called god. I put organic mango,
I cut up the mango. I cut up either grapes
or kiwi, all organic, and a banana, and people, you
know it's not you know it's natural sugar. Right. It
(42:50):
gives you a burst of energy, and it's also it's
good for you. It is good for you. You named everything.
I love all those fruits to name. The banana gives
it the right amount of sweetness because people be sleeping
on bananas. But you put a banana and spin at
your kil it's gonna give you the nice amount of sweetness. Y'all.
My cookbook's gonna come out in about eight years as well. No,
(43:11):
I'm just playing, just just playing, just playing. You have
been a light, absolute joy. This is such a special podcast,
and I am excited. Now I'm gonna talk to Alex
and find an address. I'm gonna send a paid postage
um and wondering if you will sign my book, The
(43:34):
Awakening of Malcolm X, and you'll sign it for me
and send it right on back. Y'all heard that right,
She's the world heard it? Anything for you? You know,
I'm gonna share this something that my father wrote, he
said that black musician, he picks up his horn and
starts blowing some sounds that he never thought of before.
(43:57):
He improvises, he creates it. It comes from within. It's
his soul. It's that soul music. It's the only area
on the American scene where the black man has been
free to create, and he has mastered it. He has
(44:18):
shown that he can come up with something nobody ever
thought of on his horn. Well, likewise, he can do
the same thing if given intellectual independence, he can come
up with a new philosophy. He can invent a society,
a social system that is different from anything that exists
(44:39):
or has ever existed. And you know, God bless him,
but what he's saying is whatever it is any one
of us want to accomplish, we can. Because for so
long we've been living with these restrictions, you know, discrimination limited.
(45:00):
We've been living in in a box. You know, we
can't go here, we can't do that. And so when
it came to music, no one could say to us, no,
you can't blow the horn that way, No you can't
have this kind of feeling. Oh no, you better hold
back on, you know. So we were able to just
be ourselves with this horn. And so now that we understand,
(45:25):
we are no longer enslaved, right and we've we're no
longer brainwashed. We are free to exist right, this multi
ratio kind of society that that is driving our nation
nation forward now that we can accomplish whatever we believe
we can, and so that I think is extremely important.
(45:48):
We are free to create, we are free to be,
We are free to live, we are free to learn,
we are free to love. So if all are listening,
write that down. As she was reading that, I closed
my eyes to take it all in and just in
(46:09):
envisioning everything that I am free to do, and a
lot of things that we are free to do is
because of the words and the life of Malcolm x ELIASA.
Thank you so much for being with me today. Such
a pleasure. I have to tell you, I really enjoyed
this and I was actually looking forward to this um
(46:29):
when when Alex first asked me, you know, do you
want to do Michelle Williams podcast? I said absolutely, you know,
because I knew it wasn't gonna be anything really heavy,
but you know that we could just communicate with one
another and and fellowship and absolutely and fortify our village. Absolutely, Um,
(46:51):
where can we follow you? And y'all, y'all have to
get the book The Awakening of Malcolm X. It is new.
You've got to get it. It's powerful. I've got the
eyebook or e book or whatever you want to call
it as well, but that physical books should be getting
to you as soon as we get that address of
where to get it to, where can we find you
and or what's next? Well, I am on social media.
(47:15):
I'm at il Yasabaz, and you don't have to send
me a book. I'll send you Alex will give me
your information, or I'll send it to Alex or however
you know we're going to send it, and I'll just
send you the book. It would be I'm so honored
to do that. Well, I won't get in the way
of you getting your blessing. But listen, I agree. I
(47:37):
I believe in supporting people, I mean New York Times
best selling authors. I really believe in supporting and supporting
with my with the coinage. Okay, that is clicking that
ad to Kurt, that's clicking the checkout button and putting
your form of payment in that in that line. So,
(48:00):
but thank you thank you so much. Either way, I
know we will be in communication once again. I appreciate you,
like y'asa for coming on and for checking in. Thank
you you guys have done. I'm a few podcasts lately,
(48:35):
but none have had my palm sweating, my feet sweating
I had royalty that I just spoke to. I am
truly overwhelmed, truly blessed, truly strengthened, enlightened. I feel smarter.
Don't y'all feel a little smarter as well. That's why
(48:58):
it's so important to you have somebody in your crew
or somebody that you can talk to monthly twice a
month that heightens your level of awareness, that heightens your
level of knowledge and what you think you already know,
and to also go outside of what you think you
should learn and know. And when I told her earlier,
(49:22):
my father would be so proud of this interview because
all he wanted for us was to learn about people,
different religions, different beliefs, and how at the end of
the day, we're all the same. I grew up in
a very within a Pentecostal background, and we weren't necessarily
(49:46):
taught to read other books outside. Let me take that back,
we were taught to read other books, but as far
as religious you know, not necessarily books outside of the Bible.
But I know for a fact, uh, my dad would
be proud of this interview and that part where she
begins to read about her of something that her father wrote,
(50:09):
something that close your eyes, take it in and when
he's like music, that was the only thing we had.
That was the only thing that we were free to create.
But now we have so much other freedoms. We have
freedom to learn, we have freedom to love. We still
have the freedom to create. But let's really take in
(50:30):
and take advantage of the freedom to learn and the
freedom of love. I am just absolutely blown away and
just taking it back by this amazing, beautiful conversation. She's
so grounded and just absolutely amazing. I pray all have
(50:51):
enjoyed this episode as much as I did recording it.
Thank you for Checking in with Michelle Williams. Checking In
(51:35):
with Michelle Williams is a production of I Heart Radio
and The Black Effect. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio,
visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Checking In with Michelle Williams, a production of
My Heart Radio and The Black Effect. Hey everyone, it's
(00:20):
Michelle Williams. Has been trying, okay and for what We
haven't even gotten into the year, and it's kind of
been bonkers. But I really want us to come together
as a community to support each other, lean on each other,
and inspire each other. We have come through times of
hardships and we shall always prevail. So I can't wait
(00:42):
for you to hear my next guest with her words
of inspiration and power right now on Checking In with
Michelle Williams. This is a really important podcast I'm sharing
(01:07):
with you today. This podcast is definitely based on my
mental health journey. Um it's also based on the book
of the same name. But today my guest Aliyasa, she
has me checking back in on my journey of faith.
Today's theme of strength and as a community, and I
(01:28):
believe you guys are gonna hear some inspiring word from
this amazing, powerful guest that will help us continue to
prevail through these difficult times in our country and in
the world. This recording today is something very special, something
very spiritual. My palms are sweating because I have the
(01:51):
privilege and the honor to have Alyasa Shabas checking in
with us today. Aliyasa is an author, an educator, professor,
an activist, and she is the daughter of Malcolm X
and Betty Shabaz. Y'all please welcome Ilyasa Shabaz. Thank you
(02:15):
so much. It's such an honor to be here with you. Michelle.
I was really looking forward to this because I thought
this was going to just be relaxing, living room kind
of conversation. And I tell you, it's been a long year,
so I was looking forward to not a long day.
It's been a very long year. It's been a long year.
(02:39):
And we are two months into the new year. And
in this new year, you released a book in January
called The Awakening of Malcolm X, and it is an
account of his adolescent years in prison. And I know
that this is what you've been doing all year long.
Not only all year long, You've been doing this all lifelong.
(03:03):
Yes I have. I've been doing this for a while.
And you know, I've had many people asked me, when
did I know I was going to step in my
father's shoes or or something like that, And you know,
it's definitely not stepping into anyone's shoes. It's not taking
someone's legacy. It's the way my mother raised her girl.
(03:24):
She always said to me, ah yahsa, just as one
must drink water, one must get back. And you know,
she was this example, in spite of having six daughters,
that we felt comfortable enough when our girlfriends had questions.
If I didn't have the answer, I knew my mother
(03:44):
had the answer. So we always, you know, we will
bring our friends over to ask my mother questions that
we needed answers or encouragement or solutions, and she was
just always there. And so someone who has such compassion, trust,
love also unconditional, makes it easy for you to be
(04:05):
the same. And so here you go. Yeah. Well, literally
I was telling your publicists, I said, thank you so much.
You know, we have an hour, and I was like,
this conversation could easily go into two hours because I
keep finding questions and things to ask, and you kind
of went into something that I wanted to ask you, saying, um,
(04:27):
I wasn't even gonna ask this soon in in our conversation.
But did you ever feel pressure to keep up the
legacy of your parents Malcolm X and Betty Shabazer. Do
you feel it was just a natural duty or progression
knowing that this would be a part of your purpose
and or assignment. Never? Never, I mean, I'm gonna say, yes,
(04:49):
there was lots of pressure today everything this was a
part of my duty and assignment. Never did I ever say, hey,
you know what, this is what I want to do. Never.
Just something that happened. And and that's why I think
it's important that we focus on the things that we're
passionate about as opposed to things that's just going to
(05:09):
make us money and help us pay the bills. You know,
God gives us certain talents. Right. I'm happy that I'm
so compassionate. I'm happy that I'm so loving. My mother
showed me how to do that. My mother showed me
how to care, and that was by her caring so
much for her daughters and loving us, I mean, to
(05:32):
the highest power. I'm so grateful that I had an
opportunity to experience that in a mother and someone that
I could call my best friend. I love my mother
so much. You know, my mother, she was just amazing.
She set me flowers, she set me, you know, clothes
in a box. Come on, tell me, come downstairs when
(05:54):
I from a breakup and put a little you know,
pretty ring on my hand to let me know. You know, listen,
you have to love yourself. You have to know yourself
so that you are not waiting for someone else to
determine your value, right, you have to already know it.
And and so I'm so grateful for those kinds of
(06:15):
things that my mother gave me. So by the time
I went to college, people these enormous expectations. They were
so enormous, and you know, I was raised like love, peace, joy,
you know, kind of, and that was not who they
thought Malcolm X was when I went to college. Now,
(06:39):
when I was in high school, when I was you know,
going to summer camp, Oh, I gotta stuff, it didn't matter,
right because other people's parents also, you know, did great things.
And so when I went to college out of my
mother's home, out of her protective wing, from underneath her
protective wing, oh my gosh, people chase me all around campus.
(06:59):
I your Malcolm X's dorty. Why didn't you tell me?
And I was like, oh my god. So I called
my sister and you know, I said, auntel him, Like
what am I supposed to do? Because this was a
lot of pressure, and she said, you don't have to
pass the test to be Malcolm X's Dorty. You already are.
Maybe you are always good enough and that's something that
(07:22):
we can use just in life. You already are, You
already are, And these words are gonna help someone that
feel like they have to feel or do exactly like
I know people whose parents are ministers, pastors as well
and they feel like they have to do that, or
mom is a doctor, I better go to medical school too,
(07:46):
you know. But you are filling me up because you're
talking about the impact and the impartation that your mother
gave to you. She built you to to be or
poured in you to be strong, confident, and like you said,
you already know who you are. You already know your
(08:07):
your father's daughter, your mother's daughter is like does my DNA?
Did you check my birth certificate to even see? But
the power in the statement you already are, that's right,
and you know it doesn't happen just like that. But
when I look back at my mother, right, just really
(08:30):
amazing woman with all that she had gone through as
the wife of Malcolm X, the wife of a man
who challenged a government that was historically unjust to its
own people, that she was still so kind, loving. And
what she did is she made sure that her six daughters.
(08:50):
Come on, tell it, six y'all, six six daughters. And
let me tell you. My father was like like almost
six five six ft five. She was like five five nine,
and they had six tall, opinionated daughters. And you know,
(09:12):
my mother made sure that we learned about the significant
contributions that women made to the world, the significant contributions
that Islam made to the world, and the significant contributions
that people of the African diaspora, people of First world lands,
people of you know, indigenous people made to the world.
(09:35):
So we grew up with a really solid sense of ourselves.
Our identity was intact, and I think that is extremely important.
You know, when we look at our education, you know, curriculum,
look at look at what our children are learning. They're
not learning anything good about themselves, right and and and
so I might be jumping ahead a bit, but you know,
(09:58):
when we think of slavery, for example, right now, think
about just the generational trauma to live like that your
entire life, right then, your entire life. And so do
you feel we are seeing that generational trauma play out
(10:19):
more in this generation. It shouldn't be more in this generation.
I think that it was more in the previous generations.
You know, because today look at this, look at these marches,
the protests, and the demonstrations that happened. People went to
the streets, say, and they organized in fifty states and
(10:42):
in the US and eighteen countries abroad. You know, people black, white, red, green, purple, African,
um Asian, everyone, everyone, And it was all about humanity. Yes,
they said black lives matter. Right, because now we're because
of we're isolating ourselves quarantine, global pandemic, we're forced to
(11:05):
watch these you know, brutal killings of innocent people. So
you know, there's just so so many directions we can
take this. There's so so many directions we can take this.
Because now I'm wondering, since you're we're talking about the
movement of black Lives matter, do you think had it
not been for the work and legacy of your father
(11:27):
and mother, would we be here today or would we
have been empowered to speak up as we do now?
Would you have been as empowered you know as an educator, right,
It's funny that you say that because that's what my
father did for us. You know, he gave us shock treatment, right,
He let us know, Look, if someone is doing these
(11:52):
horrific things to your wives, to your children, if they're
blowing up churches and your children are dying, what are
you going to do? You're nothing but a chump. Right.
That was that was like shock treatment so that we
can say, oh, we we do have the freedom to
(12:14):
protect our families. Yes, you have the freedom to do
these things. So I think that it was good. I mean,
you know, listen, my father is quoted fifty three point
seven thousand times per hour in social media, and there
is evidence that young people want to know the truth
about Malcolm X, right, they want toruth about Malcolm X.
(12:37):
They're looking for leaders who are wise and who speak truth.
And we know Malcolm spoke truth and truth is time.
Sure did he? Sure did? I mean, when you talk
about the knife that's put in nine inches and whether
you pull it out six inches, it's still a wound.
Let's still address the wound. Whether you keep it in there,
pull it, it's still a wound. Let's address that. You know.
(12:59):
So my father said, if you if you take a
knife and you put it in my back nine inches
and you only pull it out six inches. The knife
is still in my back. Come on, that's what I
was getting too. Yes, yeah, the knife is still in
my back. So let's pull the knife all the way
out and address the wound that's left made. Because look
(13:22):
at what happened and how long slavery lasted. And if
we're going to control the narrative, then we can say,
instead of slaves, you know, our our ancestors, how about
we say, had it not been for those refined and
industrious African and Indigenous people who cultivated this land and
(13:44):
turned it into a land of milk and honey, no
one would have the opportunity to call the United States
of America leader of the free world our home. And
so that's what happens when we control our narrative and
not think that we can sit back and let someone
else control it for us. Yeah, And I feel like
the only way we can control our narrative is to
(14:05):
get educated about it. Let's get educated about it first,
and then I think for us, I know, we tell
other races, specifically white people, don't just gloss over our
wounds and just don't say things like I don't see color.
We're all unit, We're all let's come united. No, we
can't gloss over our wounds, because let's really see what
(14:28):
slavery did to us. Let's see what it did. Let's
recognize what it did. I think it's the way to
get over a loss or trauma done to you. There
are certain steps that you have to do to in
order to do so. And one of those things is
definitely acknowledging, accepting and say okay, I'm facing it. Okay,
what are the steps now that I need to do
(14:48):
to move forward and heal? Yes, that's right. And if
we're want to take it a step further, come on,
help us. Come on, Yeah, don't examine me, let's examine you.
What is it about you? They had to turn me
into a slave and the manner that you did? What
(15:09):
is it about you that had to turn me into
a criminal and the manner that you did. So it's
not you know, looking at us, it's making them. What
if black people weren't forced to change? What if white
people were forced to change? Because we are always making
the adjustment, We've had to always make an adjustment, and
(15:33):
and and listen, you know, I hate to say this,
But I got white friends, you know, so it's not
this thing where you know, all white people are one way,
all black people are one way. But we're talking about
the system right systemically the people that we've seen in
our white house, you know, the the insurrectionists. Is that
(15:59):
what I mean? You know, come on, this kind of
mentality exists, So let's not look at us, Let's look
at you and why. You know, what is it that
causes you to do these kinds of things and knowing
that you can get away with it or you can
(16:21):
do the same thing. And then when we have an uprising,
just a march weird called thugs, we didn't brush the
Capitol building. I don't even know if it was ever
a thought, because we know what would have happened to us,
it had been bloodshed everywhere. Please forgive me because it's
like I I feel, you know, when your parents say
(16:41):
to respect your elders or in great people that have
gone before you, I feel like I'm not even supposed
to just because saying, how do you feel your father
Malcolm X? I feel like I'm supposed to put a
handle in front of that. But how do you think
he would have responded today? I feel like you're doing
it for him. You know, how would he would have
responded personally. I think that's why so many people, fifty
(17:02):
three point seven thousand people turned to Malcolm X, because
now they're realizing what he had this profound reaction towards
you know, they're realizing that he didn't just walk around,
you know, talking like this. He was reacting to something
that was happening. And clearly what he was reacting to
(17:24):
is the same thing that's happening today. And that is
the reason why they the reason that they turned to him.
And my father said that it would be this generation
of young leaders who would recognize that those in power
have misused power and demand change, and that they're willing
to do the necessary work to ensure that this change happens. Yeah,
(17:48):
he was prophetic in that sense, Yes, for sure. And
you know he was so young, Michelle. He was gunned
down at thirty nine, so when the world learned about him,
he was in his late twenties, you know, so that
was a very young man. And people say, oh, he changed,
he evolved, Yeah, continually evolved and a reader. He read everything,
(18:15):
more books than I can never even you know, think
about reading um, but he read consistently where consistently and
and so that is what my new book, the Awakening
of Malcolm X. Yes, yes, no, it's okay, because there
is there, y'all, There is a flow. And y'all, I
(18:36):
do know that this book came out and we are
to talk about this book. But I just please forgive
me if I didn't get to it sooner, because yes,
I do have questions about the Awakening of Malcolm X
and definitely wanting to know the moments of your own
discovery that you had of writing it. Well, Um, you know,
(18:58):
I teach a John J. College of Mental Justice in
New York City, and I have this, uh these stats.
We all know that because of a PA Juvenise, you
know all of the work that she's done on criminal justice.
But we know that there are three million people in
our nation's prison today. And while only thirty two percent
(19:21):
of our United States population are people of color, fifty
of the incarcerated population are people of color. Now what
on earth is happening? Right? And andwelve, the United States
spent eighty one billion tax payer dollars on correctional facilities,
(19:47):
not education, not after school program, not even on books
or anything in this correction of facilities. But we're just
talking about places to house all of these human bodies.
And since nineteen seventy, the incarcerated population has increased by
seven hundred percent. And this is what's happening to our
(20:12):
young people. And so when I thought about my father,
I know when he stepped foot the first time, he
was a young adolescent, also that he must have been horrified,
you know. And we never think about the humanity of
of these prisoners, of these Indians, and so it was
(20:33):
an opportunity to also look at the humanity. You know,
a lot of these young people or elders were in
the wrong play at the in the right place at
the wrong time, and held in these terrific conditions that
that aren't made for human survival, you know. And so
I discovered so many great things about my father. That
(20:56):
he was the star debater, you know, at the colony,
and that he uh studied the dictionary, not so that
he could learn how to write or learn how to read,
but so that he could know the etymology, the root words,
the origin of these words. So when asked about a
particular topic, he could understand the words that were being used.
(21:22):
And so you know, there are a lot of great
things that I discovered about my father that for me
was just so wonderful and beautiful to show that he
was already smart young man, all the things that we
saw Malcolm as an adult, that he was a lot
of those things already while he while in his youth
(21:42):
because of his parents. What about your own personal discoveries
where you're like, oh, wow, no, wonder why I like
to read this because my father read this, or I'm
sure there have been years of discovery personally. Was there
anything new within you? Not what you discovered about him,
(22:03):
but anything you discovered about you in writing it and
compiling you know things, you know, my father was just
so compassionate, and you know seeing that, you know, during COVID,
we didn't know if we were going to live. We
didn't know like what is this? What is going to happen?
(22:25):
When is it gonna come under my door? When is
it going to be my time to go? Right? So
here we are questioning our mortality. And I remember there
was this um gentleman from California who was the film
you know, a film director, and we were talking about
doing this film and there was another gentleman in Japan
(22:48):
who was a biographer and he was doing a biography
on the same time period. So the three of us
were on this phone call and we were all talking
about um, my father during this time period, this period
of his life, and I was just like, you know, Epiphany,
you guys were gonna live because there's no coincidence that
(23:10):
each of us is working on, you know, this information
of my father's life during this time period. And the
gentleman in Japan had all of this amazing information. He
had the files from someone else, because my father's files
somehow just you know, we're missing, right, But in someone
(23:31):
else's files he found poetry that my father wrote. He
found a Koran you know that my father reference. And
and so it's just a lot of these really wonderful things.
I know that I always, you know, one thing that
I can never unforget is um to be or not
to be, whether it is nobler in the mind to
(23:52):
suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortunately to take
arms against the sea of troubles by opposing. And I
know that that my alog soliloquy, and I learned it
in high school. But I learned so many other things
in high school. But it's something about that, you know,
that speaks to the urgency of participating in injustice. Right
(24:14):
to be or not to be. You're gonna be a
part of the problem, or you're gonna be a part
of the solution. And that's it. And so it just
always resonated with me. And so, of course, when I
got a little older, my father's speech that he did
at Oxford the debate, he he ends it with that beautiful,
you know, Shakespeare excerpt, and so I just always thought
(24:35):
that that was really wonderful and that's always been one
of my father's favorite speeches. Yeah, correct with me if
I'm wrong. A few moments ago, it seemed like you
were getting a little emotional and choked up there. I
saw some other interviews of you, especially when you were
talking about the Netflix UM documentary UM Who Killed Malcolm X.
I noticed the time or two where you got emotional,
(24:58):
for sure, and ibviously that is okay. What do you
do in moments? Do you just let it go? How
do you take care of you in moments like that? Well,
you know, this is my office and not really great
photographs of my mother, of my father, and of people
(25:19):
who were close to my parents. Yeah, Maya Angela, Auntie Corretta, y'all.
She gets to say, no, y'all, is she for real?
She gets to say, Auntie Corretta, we just say mrs.
She gets to say, Auntie, listen, you young people, we
(25:48):
got to up our circle. Okay, all right? But Antique Carretta, Yeah,
she was amazing. And so I just come to my
office sometimes and you know, and I just you know,
grateful that I had them in my life. When I
think about our ancestors, just grateful, you know that they
(26:09):
did all that they did for us, you know, when
we think about our ancestors on the continent, you know, scholars, scientists, astronomers, farmers.
You know that I'm just grateful and so um and
I take that time to go inside of me, and
(26:30):
I know that I'm okay and grateful to my mother
and grateful to my father and just grateful, you know,
lots of gratitude. I don't know, I even feel it
through this phone call. That you definitely have their presence
surrounding you, protecting you, loving you, and that that is
(26:50):
the place where you can go when you probably feel overwhelmed.
My podcast Checking in the Foundation of It was about
mental health and just wanting to know your thoughts on
self care and your mental health. I know you have
a safe place where you can go, even if it's
into just places of your office. Um, what are your
(27:12):
thoughts on the state of mental health today? Gosh, I
think it's so important to have a therapist, to have
someone that you can go to with, you know, with
all of your thoughts, with the challenges that you have,
you know, even when you have dreams, right, I think
(27:32):
that it's important to have someone that you can release
and share the thoughts that you have, and especially looking
at all of what we experience, things that we don't understand,
you know. I think it's absolutely important. I had a
therapist and whenever I felt a little overwhelmed, I would
(27:55):
always reach out and say can I come and see you?
You know, yeah, absolutely, I think it's extremely important. The
documentary Who Killed Malcolm X? I don't know if it
has an investigation be been reopened since it's aired. And
then what do you do if you have anger or confusion?
(28:17):
What do you do? What does Ilyasa do anger or confusion? Uh?
I don't know that I anger or confusion because there's
a lot what I tell you if y'all can see
my hands, because it's like it's stuff going to the
east to the west. I mean, it's the documentary is
(28:40):
there's a lot, there's a lot of theories, there's a
lot of intelligent perspectives. There's it could be this, it
could be that. Gotta invoke some confusion, right and I think,
you know, that's where you have to find your own balance.
I know when I found myself in a in a
difficult space. My mother had passed away, and there were
(29:03):
a lot of um interviews and things, and you know,
I had never UM. I didn't live my life in
that manner. I didn't open myself up to be you know,
critiques on you know, such a larger um scale. And
I remember traveling to the south. You know, I was
(29:26):
trying to think, like where am I gonna go and
get fortified? How am I going to fortify my village?
And the only thing I could think of was go
to the south, Drive to the south and get the
ancestors spirit, you know, go and see you know where
they spent all of this time, you know, things like that.
(29:48):
My thing is, how however, I found myself in a
tight space that I know my ancestors were in a
tighter space, and yet they thrived. And so I just
you know, call my ancestors, get that love, get that strength,
and feel the she oaks and you know, and I'm okay,
(30:11):
because it is in us, it is you. It's literally
in your blood, it's literally in your DNA to keep going.
But even those of us that are deemed strong, sometimes
it can feel overwhelming. Sometimes it's like, I don't know
about you, but there are many times I said, you
(30:32):
know what, I'm gonna go work at auto zone. I
feel like I'm more well versed in selling winshield, wipe
or fluid. Now. I know that's not my destiny purpose
in calling. And I know that's just fatigue speaking or
completely right, you know. But you're just like, listen, you know,
I don't need all that other stuff. Yeah, I com
weleetly understand, and I'm sure your your listeners also understand.
(30:57):
But of course when we see you and we hear
your voice, we're like, oh no, michall okay, And then
your tribe is gonna remind you. No, I mean to
who much has given? Definitely much is required, oh no,
to continue carrying this legacy, you have to do what
(31:17):
you have to do too. I'm not even gonna say
eliminate fatigue, because that's part of just being natural something
You get tired, you know. And but some people do
get tired to the point of they want to give up,
and they actually do give up. And it's like there
are more people counting on you to keep going and
counting on your yes to say, I'm going to keep going.
(31:38):
I'm going to keep going. But you know, when I
look at my father's life, for me, this is not
the end all be all. We are here for a
very short time and then we go to the next place,
but we have to make sure while we're here we
do what's necessary. That's why it's an important that what's
(31:59):
your value stuff? Who are you? Do you like yourself?
You know? Are you willing to compromise to have friends?
You know? Like? So it's really knowing who you are
and knowing what your values are and not compromising for
the sake of having someone or something in your life.
(32:22):
And that could eliminate the fatigue and the wanting to
give up. Because I don't know why you're saying that.
Something just came on me and was like, how dare
you O, can you tire your ticket him in the net?
Get up out there, get back in there. Don't you
sit out because you're tired. How dare you when you
think of Malcolm X, when you think of miss Betty Shabaz,
(32:45):
when you even think of when you said anti Corretta,
of course we're going to think of Martin Luther King Jr.
You know, And that just lets me know. It just
warmed my heart when you called her Auntie Corretta, because
I wanted to know, oh, along with Martin Luther King?
Has there been any movements in creating a national holiday
(33:08):
for your father, Malcolm X? Um, you know, yes, and
people keep asking and talking about it, and um, I
really would not be surprised by it happening. And I
think that when we understand that we're talking about people, right,
(33:30):
when we talk about the government, that's a body of people.
When we talk about the you know, police departments, that's
a body of people. And so new people come this
body of people can be better informed. Right there are
eight billion, six hundred million people in the world are
(33:50):
people of color, and so just imagine if we had
more faith and we were better informed, better educated. He's
the thing is that we can accomplish, but we think
that change can't happen. Then that means we're not willing
to do the work right. It means we're not willing
to do the work. But there was something else that
(34:11):
you said that I wanted to comment on. I think
about our ancestors that even when we go back to
the continent right before slavery existed, or even here in
this country before slavery existed, because we know that black people,
people of color um were thriving here and they were
(34:31):
thriving on the continent. When we look at the history
prior to Christopher Columbus, we see that this is what
life was about, scholarship, right, wisdom, and and and the
universal spirit. And so it was about giving back, doing
(34:52):
something in your community and your society before you passed
on to the next place. And when you did pass away,
it was a sell of raction because you were going
to the next place because you lived your life the
way you were supposed to. So it's like these kinds
of values, which sounds kind of corny, but they're real.
And at the end of our day when we're on
(35:14):
our deathbeds, because it's inevitable that that's going to happen. Yeah,
what do people usually talk about? And so those are
the kinds of things that you know, you make sure
that they're intact for yourself while you're young. Yes, she
has said so much that's just made me literally flill
back in my seat. I hope y'all are taking in
(35:35):
this wisdom. I don't see her doing this often, and
I am definitely appreciative of your time. The words of
your father have changed so many lives, as we can
speak of so many people. Regardless of what some person's
beliefs are, religious beliefs are, I know they were some
change in my household because of the words of your father.
(35:58):
What is something that you can say to my listeners
in the community that can leave us with inspiration and
hope right now in this difficult time, I had to
have a twofold, but just any words of hope and inspiration,
hope and inspiration, Well, let's see. You know, there is
(36:19):
a multi racial movement that's driving our nation towards a
more civilized space. Multi racial, multi gender, just you know, humans,
a synthetic identity is being born and we want to
get on that train. Our society is moving forward bigotry
(36:41):
and all its ugly hate is losing and a new
error has yet to divine itself. And I think the
lesson for our young people especially is that cheaters lose
moral character wins, and that black power, women power is
(37:01):
not exclusionary. It simply says we're coming to the table. Yeah,
and I saw some one quote that said I don't
want to see I'm taking the table, or something to
that effect. That's with the new generation. You know, it's saying, look,
you know I am here, and if you don't see me,
I will make sure you you understand and you recognize,
(37:24):
you know, all of what I should be participating I
should have as well. Yeah, well there are so many ques.
I've heard people say the seat like I brought the table.
What you're talking about, right, Oh my gosh. I'm just
sitting just here listening to you, and I am intrigued
of your belief, how big your belief is. And when
(37:49):
I say your belief, because we have to definitely increase
our level of belief, walk in something every day, what
you declare will happen. Okay, bring me into your just
a few seconds of how you believe and how you
believe big because I know you believe Big Iliasa, and
you know I believe big because of how I was raised.
(38:14):
And the reason that I do the work that I
do is because I'm so grateful that my education was intact.
And I had said something like, we need a better
education so that we understand that African American history is
American history. And if the terrorism of slavery and the
(38:38):
subsequent massacres in walls Black Wall Street in Tulsa, Oklahoma
and rose with Florida, for example, Flnton High School US
history classes to be as American as the Boston Tea Party,
then we would understand that our education is then based
on historical truths, right, and more citizens would understand the
(39:02):
necessity for reparations, and we would have the opportunity to
teach our children truth and human compassion. And if in
world's history the truth that Africa is the cradle of
the most advanced civilization that ever existed in mankind, then
Americans would appreciate the complexity of black civilizations and understand
(39:29):
that this is where all of human life began. And
so it's important that we know these things about ourselves. Right,
It's about humanity and and and and I would think
that not only our young people, but the our parents, right,
these smart, forward thinking adults. We want to make sure
(39:50):
that our young people are learning truth, historical facts, compassion, love,
self love. You know, all these things are extremely important.
Thank you so much, self love, self love. We hear
your strength, we know your legacy, we know where you
(40:11):
come from. Give us one practical because some of us
are nosy. Give us one smidget of what you do
in your day for self love? What do I do
for self love? Okay, so this is just corny. Um.
You know, I work out and she looks good with
a t good you look at you. You're absolutely beautiful,
(40:38):
gorgeous as ever. And listen, listen, listen. All I know
is you gave me hope, not hoping, inspiration. Get a
physical dictionary, y'all. Put it alongside the rest of the
books that you read. Because now when you're talking about
the dictionaries and the poetry um that you and your
father have read and everything that you can, well, first
(41:00):
of all, it's come from years of reading, um, years
of learning learning, UM, definitely should that's got to be
part of self love? How about that? But something in
your day like okay, for me, today I made a
grilled cheese sandwich. Yes, I got the skillet out. I know,
(41:20):
I'm made a grilled cheese with butter. Not not fancy margine,
I know, but my uncle's a physician. He told us
we should be using real butter. So thanks uncle, real butter.
So that's what I did today. Just it was so good.
But I know, self care is more than going to
the spa. I know, self care is what you feed yourself,
(41:43):
even what you say to yourself, who's in your environment,
and what you're meditating on. But if you care to share,
what is something that you do for I can talk
to my parents. I talked to my you know, parents,
I talked to God. I talked to my ancestors. When
I mean, you know support, I'm like, I mean, where
else can you go? Where else can you really get them?
(42:06):
Where you can trust? You can trust those areas that
you just mentioned, Okay, although that's safe in a trusted
and true place where you go. I was like, does
she eat ice cream sandwich? Well? You know what I make?
I make and I couldn't wait to have it because
it also gives you a burst of energy. I make
(42:26):
um and my vita thing via mix or the blender whatever,
and that thing is called god. I put organic mango,
I cut up the mango. I cut up either grapes
or kiwi, all organic, and a banana, and people, you
know it's not you know it's natural sugar. Right. It
(42:50):
gives you a burst of energy, and it's also it's
good for you. It is good for you. You named everything.
I love all those fruits to name. The banana gives
it the right amount of sweetness because people be sleeping
on bananas. But you put a banana and spin at
your kil it's gonna give you the nice amount of sweetness. Y'all.
My cookbook's gonna come out in about eight years as well. No,
(43:11):
I'm just playing, just just playing, just playing. You have
been a light, absolute joy. This is such a special podcast,
and I am excited. Now I'm gonna talk to Alex
and find an address. I'm gonna send a paid postage
um and wondering if you will sign my book, The
(43:34):
Awakening of Malcolm X, and you'll sign it for me
and send it right on back. Y'all heard that right,
She's the world heard it? Anything for you? You know,
I'm gonna share this something that my father wrote, he
said that black musician, he picks up his horn and
starts blowing some sounds that he never thought of before.
(43:57):
He improvises, he creates it. It comes from within. It's
his soul. It's that soul music. It's the only area
on the American scene where the black man has been
free to create, and he has mastered it. He has
(44:18):
shown that he can come up with something nobody ever
thought of on his horn. Well, likewise, he can do
the same thing if given intellectual independence, he can come
up with a new philosophy. He can invent a society,
a social system that is different from anything that exists
(44:39):
or has ever existed. And you know, God bless him,
but what he's saying is whatever it is any one
of us want to accomplish, we can. Because for so
long we've been living with these restrictions, you know, discrimination limited.
(45:00):
We've been living in in a box. You know, we
can't go here, we can't do that. And so when
it came to music, no one could say to us, no,
you can't blow the horn that way, No you can't
have this kind of feeling. Oh no, you better hold
back on, you know. So we were able to just
be ourselves with this horn. And so now that we understand,
(45:25):
we are no longer enslaved, right and we've we're no
longer brainwashed. We are free to exist right, this multi
ratio kind of society that that is driving our nation
nation forward now that we can accomplish whatever we believe
we can, and so that I think is extremely important.
(45:48):
We are free to create, we are free to be,
We are free to live, we are free to learn,
we are free to love. So if all are listening,
write that down. As she was reading that, I closed
my eyes to take it all in and just in
(46:09):
envisioning everything that I am free to do, and a
lot of things that we are free to do is
because of the words and the life of Malcolm x ELIASA.
Thank you so much for being with me today. Such
a pleasure. I have to tell you, I really enjoyed
this and I was actually looking forward to this um
(46:29):
when when Alex first asked me, you know, do you
want to do Michelle Williams podcast? I said absolutely, you know,
because I knew it wasn't gonna be anything really heavy,
but you know that we could just communicate with one
another and and fellowship and absolutely and fortify our village. Absolutely, Um,
(46:51):
where can we follow you? And y'all, y'all have to
get the book The Awakening of Malcolm X. It is new.
You've got to get it. It's powerful. I've got the
eyebook or e book or whatever you want to call
it as well, but that physical books should be getting
to you as soon as we get that address of
where to get it to, where can we find you
and or what's next? Well, I am on social media.
(47:15):
I'm at il Yasabaz, and you don't have to send
me a book. I'll send you Alex will give me
your information, or I'll send it to Alex or however
you know we're going to send it, and I'll just
send you the book. It would be I'm so honored
to do that. Well, I won't get in the way
of you getting your blessing. But listen, I agree. I
(47:37):
I believe in supporting people, I mean New York Times
best selling authors. I really believe in supporting and supporting
with my with the coinage. Okay, that is clicking that
ad to Kurt, that's clicking the checkout button and putting
your form of payment in that in that line. So,
(48:00):
but thank you thank you so much. Either way, I
know we will be in communication once again. I appreciate you,
like y'asa for coming on and for checking in. Thank
you you guys have done. I'm a few podcasts lately,
(48:35):
but none have had my palm sweating, my feet sweating
I had royalty that I just spoke to. I am
truly overwhelmed, truly blessed, truly strengthened, enlightened. I feel smarter.
Don't y'all feel a little smarter as well. That's why
(48:58):
it's so important to you have somebody in your crew
or somebody that you can talk to monthly twice a
month that heightens your level of awareness, that heightens your
level of knowledge and what you think you already know,
and to also go outside of what you think you
should learn and know. And when I told her earlier,
(49:22):
my father would be so proud of this interview because
all he wanted for us was to learn about people,
different religions, different beliefs, and how at the end of
the day, we're all the same. I grew up in
a very within a Pentecostal background, and we weren't necessarily
(49:46):
taught to read other books outside. Let me take that back,
we were taught to read other books, but as far
as religious you know, not necessarily books outside of the Bible.
But I know for a fact, uh, my dad would
be proud of this interview and that part where she
begins to read about her of something that her father wrote,
(50:09):
something that close your eyes, take it in and when
he's like music, that was the only thing we had.
That was the only thing that we were free to create.
But now we have so much other freedoms. We have
freedom to learn, we have freedom to love. We still
have the freedom to create. But let's really take in
(50:30):
and take advantage of the freedom to learn and the
freedom of love. I am just absolutely blown away and
just taking it back by this amazing, beautiful conversation. She's
so grounded and just absolutely amazing. I pray all have
(50:51):
enjoyed this episode as much as I did recording it.
Thank you for Checking in with Michelle Williams. Checking In
(51:35):
with Michelle Williams is a production of I Heart Radio
and The Black Effect. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio,
visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
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