April 4, 2023 • 46 mins
Michelle and Kobe are addressing trauma! Kobe talks about how our lives can change when we address our traumas. She also discusses the journey that it takes to heal, healing trauma relationally and why her book is dedicated to black women of faith. CHECK IN to this episode if you need motivation to get yourself a therapist!
For all things Kobe Campbell, including a link to purchase her book and all social handles, visit: https://bio.site/kobecampbell
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Instagram: @MichelleWilliams
Twitter: @RealMichelleW
The Black Effect Podcast Network will be making history again with the first Black Effect Podcast Festival taking place on April 22nd in Atlanta. Checking in With Michelle Williams will be hitting the live podcast stage with 85 South Show, WHOREible Decisions, Big Facts, Reasonably Shady, and many more. Make sure to grab your tickets today at BlackEffect.com
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Checking In with Michelle Williams, a production of
My Heart Radio and The Black Effect. Hey there, I'm
(00:20):
just wondering, is there anybody listening who feels like you've
been too hurt to heal. You've been taking advantage of
so much that you're like, it is impossible to trust.
Love isn't for me. I am just gonna be at
the bottom of the barrel. I'm just going to carry.
(00:42):
It's just meant for me to carry generational trauma. I
remember somebody told me, I promise you guys, they said, Michelle,
my mom told me to stop trying to be successful
because nobody in our family is successful, So just plan
on like us. And I was like, what it's like.
(01:05):
I couldn't even be mad at her mother because that
had to have been passed down. You literally feel like, no,
we are to just struggle. Absolutely not. So that's why
I'm just so thankful for our next guest who is
checking in. She's a licensed therapist. She's got a brand
(01:27):
new book. Why am I like this, How to Break
cycles Hell from Trauma and Restore your faith. You guys,
She's out here doing her thing. So this episode it's
for you. It is another beautiful day here with checking In.
(01:48):
I'm so grateful for everybody that continues to tune in, subscribe,
download again. We cannot do checking In without you. The
great thing about my podcast is I love having people
that actually, well it's good for y'all too, who know
what they're talking about, who are passionate about what they
talk about, who sometimes even speak from a place of
(02:10):
their own experiences and human moments that they have had
through life. And I am so excited to have with
us author wellness advocate, trauma therapist like she's got credentials, y'all,
she got the lettuce behind her name, and an amazing
podcaster who's been making waves on social media by being
(02:34):
so transparent and honest and so informative. Please give it
up a checking in. Welcome to Kobe Campbell. Hello, thank
you for having me. You are so so welcome. I
know you're a well, a deep well of information. Where
(02:56):
you come from? What? Who are your mom and them?
Where y'all was born and raised? Well? Where are you from? Well?
I like to say that I'm gonna My parents are
from Ghana, West Africa, but I come by way of Vancouver, Canada.
I was actually born in Canada, personally raised in Canada,
and then my family moved from Canada to Greensboro, North Carolina,
(03:17):
and I've been here in North Carolina ever since. Yeah,
my people in name is African. Let me tell you something.
You have the best of so many worlds and cultures,
guyanaan Canadian in good old southern Greensboro. You well can't
get the more southern ben Greensboro. That's correct, then Greensboro.
(03:39):
I've spent some time in Vancouver last year filming, and
it it's one of the most beautiful coregities. I had
had only been twice, but the time span of how
long it had been since I'd been to Vancouver was
a long time rainy. But I could tell it's beautiful
when it's spring, Yeah, for sure, in summer and then
it's far as Ghanaian, I took my ancestry. I don't
(04:03):
know if you're tired of people when they say this,
no remever, so the majority of my African blood is
of Ghana. Oh my gosh, that's amazing. So we're a family.
We're a pretty much family. We are pretty much family.
So I am so proud of that. Then it goes
down to Nigerian and somebody was like, somebody told me,
(04:26):
I hate to use this word. I try not to
use this word. But they was like, no, wonder why
you're crazy. You got Gannaian and Nigerian and you we're
a passionate people, for sure. I like to use the
word passionate. Passionate people. And y'all that are listening who
are either from Nigeria or Ghana or Ghanaian parents Nigerian parents.
There is a war going on and it's been a
(04:50):
war for a long long time of who has the
best jalla rice? Who we inswered? His been established time
and time again. The dam people make the most flavorful
jeloff rice that anyone has ever tasted. So the war
is within themselves. Okay, it's not with us. They're at
(05:13):
war with themselves. So from a therapist standpoint, that's what
you're that's what your assessment is is you are at
war within yourself. Well, y'all heard it here and I'm
gonna take her and too for because she has studied
human dynamics behavior in psychology. Why this war has been
(05:33):
going on so long is because you are at war
within yourself and you won't resolve go to therapy to
accept that, yeah, you don't have the best and when
you're at war with yourself, other people are always the casualty.
Oh yeah, we can end this episode just here on
(05:56):
that Kobe, What a joy to have you and congratulations.
She has a book called Why Am I Like This?
How to Break Cycles, Heal from Trauma and Restore Your Faith,
where you offer all of us well a deeper understanding
of what trauma is and how it shows up in
our everyday lives. I love how we're talking about trauma
(06:20):
and faith because a lot of people have lost faith,
or maybe they get it back, but sometimes on your journey,
when you've gone through so much, you're like your faith
is shaken or absolutely pulled out from under you. So
I'm thankful that you are writing this book. We hear
the word trauma a lot, just like we hear so
(06:43):
many other words throwing them around. So trauma is talked about,
narcissism is being talked about, some of the two words
that are just kind of being thrown out there. But
can you tell our listeners what is trauma? And it's layered.
I know it's layered from my own mental health journey,
but what do you say it is. Yeah, absolutely, so.
(07:06):
I love to think of trauma. I think the most
digestible way to receive what trauma is. Trauma is a wound.
That's literally what the word translates to in the Greek wound.
Trauma is a wound of our past that affects our
present and our orientation to the future. It's something that
happened to us in the past, but our body, our mind,
(07:26):
our spirit, it's reliving it over and over again in
our everyday situation. So we're living this pain out of
context because our mind, our body, and spirits saying we're
not done with that. We need to talk about that,
we need to deal with that, and until we deal
with it, the way that we're oriented towards the future
is always going to be tainted. Amazing, amazing. Trauma is
(07:48):
a wound. And you sound it like a preacher there
when you say, because in the Greek those are y'all
that go to church something you know, if you know
you're no, that pastor is going to say, because in
the Greek means now you don't have to go into details,
but did you have your own life experiences that led
(08:09):
you into this field? Absolutely? I think it's hard to
find anybody who is passionate about trauma who is not
first experienced it and then become curious about it. You
know that wasn't for me, and you know I share
this in the book. But in twenty thirteen, I had
a suicide attempant and it wasn't one of those moments
where I was It wasn't a rash moment. It was
(08:32):
a tired moment. It was a rock bottom moment. It's
if I don't wake up tomorrow morning, I'll be okay moment.
And for me, I found myself so weary of fighting
for approval, feeling like I didn't get it, or if
I did get it, I only had it for a
little bit. Then I'm fighting for approval again. I just
got exhausted with this cycle. And I had this powerful
(08:55):
moment read about it in the book. I had a
powerful moment, excited to read it, y'all, we're going to
get this book, yes, yes, where I had this encounter
with the Lord and I was on fire. I was like, yes, Jesus,
let's go, Holy Spirit, and that high war off like
two weeks later, and then I was depressed again and
I couldn't understand it. So wait a minute. It is
(09:19):
okay to have a relationship with God, Yes, Jesus, yes,
the Lord. Yes, and be depressed. Who okay, I'm trying.
I don't want to get into the preacher bag. Yes.
And if if we dare to actually look at scripture
through the lens of what we've only been taught, we'll
(09:39):
find that to be true in God's word. Right, we
look at numbers eleven, Moses is staying to the Lord,
I didn't birth these people. I didn't birth these Israelites.
They're knocking down my door asking for me, and he says,
just have mercy on me and kill me. That's suicidal ideation,
that's depression. That's anxiety. Right there with Moses, we see it.
(10:00):
King's nineteen with Elijah. He says, I know better than
my ancestors take my life. He lays down, hoping that
he'll go to sleep and not wake up. You think
we're the only people do that way. So monumental people,
people of faith also deal with these human emotions and
feelings thoughts, when something seems too hard to bear, something
(10:25):
that seems too hard to overcome. I was speaking with
a friend of mine and he said, he knows. I
don't know what year twenty twenty twenty one, he said,
over two hundred days out of that year he kept saying,
God take me, God take me, God take me, Take me,
God take me. And this person would be considered very
(10:46):
high in faith. But things happened, and like you say,
you're tired, you're feeling overlooked. You feel like all the
good that you're doing and working and people can be like, well,
why are you looking at things from that lens is
because you're allowing yourself to be human. Yeah. Yeah, And
Jesus is the greatest example of being human. And Jesus says,
(11:10):
I've grieved to the point of death, that suicidal audiation
to the point of death. And we can get into
the trauma because he saw some stuff. Things were done
to him that were traumatic. When you think of someone
being in the garden, I believe that's where he was.
(11:31):
Where was he when he was bleeding blood or something
that was coming out of his pores that's considered blood. Yeah, yep.
And when we think about the definition of trauma, we
have to really think about what Jesus experienced through the
lens of he was wounded. For our transgressions. If the
(11:51):
word trauma translates to the word wound, he was traumatized
for our transgressions. We have a Lord, We have a
Savior who knows what it's like to be traumatized, who
knows what it's like to be deeply wounded, to know,
who knows what it's like to be anxious, and in
the will of God depressed, and in the will of
God suicidal ideation, and in the will of God, because
(12:13):
Jesus was the will of God. Oh, Kobe, come on, somebody,
this is so good. So when you come out of
scripture and folks in the Bible, historical figures of today,
or a man who sits in Congress, or a senator
just in the state of Pennsylvania has checked himself into
(12:37):
a treatment facility for depression. Yeah, so these are people
where you're like, you're supposed to help protect my state
by being this vessel. And the same with God. You're like,
you're supposed to be this person Jesus, You're supposed to
be this person that is high and lifted up. So basically, y'all,
no one is immune yeah to trauma. Okay, so what
(12:59):
if you're sitting in here saying, well, I don't believe
in any of that that y'all are talking about. I
don't believe in Jesus. Guess what. You don't have to
believe in Jesus to have had trauma? Yeah, a recipient
of trauma or someone who has seen somebody you know
deal with some trauma. Do you think trauma is different
(13:23):
from PTSD? Well, how do they differ? Well? I think
trauma manifests as PTSD and some people, right, And PTSD
it's really it is a diagnosis that is in the
mental health field. Right, So people's trauma can show up
very differently. And I say that because it's important for
us to know that as black people, as black women,
(13:46):
because we may not have the flashbacks everybody else has. Right,
We may not have the night terrors. We may not
have We may just have a persistent sense of anxiety.
We may just feel like our chest is always closing in.
We just may struggle to have to remember things. Or
we may be able to perform and do the things
and show up and lead the charge and encourage other people.
(14:10):
But that doesn't mean we have we don't have trauma, right,
And PTSD is really a list of very specific trauma
responses and how they manifest, and that is how trauma
can manifest. But I also want us to be careful
that there's still a lot of research being done about trauma.
I mean, there was just a study that showed the
depression does not show up in the way that is
(14:31):
listed in the diagnostic manual in Black women. That's not
how it shows up for us. Because we can out
a bend, we can put on a face, we can
serve other people, we can lead the small group, we
can do all the things and still be depressed. And
so even though PTSD is a way that it manifests,
it's not the only way that it manifests. You know
(14:53):
why it shows up for us in that way because
we were back in that time, in the time of slavery,
building a country. Yeah, we didn't have a choice. Like
you said, you can lead a meeting and be traumatized,
where a lot of women didn't have a choice to
be in the fields in the hot sun picking cotton, traumatized,
still having a family to take care of, or maybe
(15:15):
your family was ripped apart from you. I believe that
that some of why black women can get up because
it's generational it's passed down. We don't have a choice survival.
And then I'm wondering, what are your thoughts on surviving
dysfunction And the reason why we didn't think it was
dysfunction is because we survived it. Yes, Oh my goodness,
(15:38):
that's such a good point. Yeah, I think that survival
has been the baseline for so long because of the
history of this country, you know, because of colonialism oversees,
because of slavery here, because of Jim Crow, because of
all the things we have really felt like surviving is it.
But yet there's a life where we can thrive. There's
a life where we can be more than us alive.
(16:01):
And yet we've been taught to just be satisfied with
being alive, and we have a generation of people who
are alive but struggling, like being a life is not enough.
We've got to feel at home in our bodies. And
you know, you said something powerful For people who don't
believe in Jesus or have the same religious perspective. Why
I love all of this, it's because you don't have
(16:23):
to share a spiritual to belief to adhere to the
reality of the biological reality. Right, you're talking about things
being passed down. That's called epigenetics. The trauma that we
don't resolve is actually encoded into our DNA and then
pass down to our children. And I love this field
because it gives us language for what we already know.
(16:43):
That's why when someone has a problem with alcoholism, we say, oh, well,
his daddy used to drink and his granddaddy used to drink.
We're talking about epigenetics. We had knowledge of something before
we had true language for it. Right. The distress that
you're feeling is biologically encoded. That's why there's some things
that will make you jumping. You don't know why. That's
why some people make you uncomfortable, and you may not
(17:04):
have language for it. And it's so important that we
know that just because you don't acknowledge your trauma doesn't
mean your trauma is not showing up in your everyday life. Okay,
so code do you and I and others that are listening,
do we have to pass it down? No, we don't
have to. How do we not by resolving our trauma?
(17:28):
That I think one of the craziest things that a
lot of people don't know. As we're sharing information on
the internet, all the things trauma can be resolved. Trauma
can be resolved. You can heal from trauma. But healing
does not look like what many of us think it
looks like. We think healing means I don't remember it.
(17:48):
We think healing means when I look back on it
and no longer hurts me anymore. The same way that
our brain is wired through repetition, our brain is rewired
through repetition. That means some people were traumatized by things
happening to them over and over again. But we can
experience healing by acting in opposition to that trauma over
(18:09):
and over again. The same system that encodes our trauma
is the same system that encodes our healing. So healing
doesn't always feel spy like, oh no, no, you glip
this in the area. Oh no, your body being scrubbed
fritz stof No. Healing is often becoming awakened to the
(18:32):
human experience, And I think that's why so many people
become confused. You know, as we experience trauma, we shut
down our emotions, we ignore them, we turn our backs
on part of ourselves we feel uncomfortable with or unsafe with.
And when we heal, we become we get access to
the full range of emotions, because a full range of
emotions is needed for a full life. Jesus needed the
(18:55):
full range of emotions. The goal is not to never
feel sad. The goal is not to feel angry. The
goals know what to do with the sadness, what to
do with the anger, what to do with the confusion,
the jealousy, the shame. It's figuring out what to do
with it, which means you have to get acquainted with it.
You don't know how to interact with someone until you
spend time with them. And a lot of us aren't
spending time with our emotions enough to understand first what
(19:18):
they're indicating. Because all things God creates has purpose, So
what's the purpose of this emotion? For a lot of people,
they don't know. Anger is an emotion that indicates a
need for protection. So you're over here shaming yourself for
feeling angry, but actually you're anger is an indicator that
you're developing self worth, and now you're not okay with
being treated like that. Come on, come on, okay, okay, okay,
(19:44):
So you don't have to, like you say, we don't
have to feel bad for being angry. It gives you
that rights that indignation to change to like you said,
to not settle. Yeah, because unfortunately you had to experience
something that made you angry enough to change. Yes. Yeah,
it's a reminder that there's a part of you that
knows exactly who you are, and there's a part of
(20:06):
you that knows that you deserve more. There's a part
of you that knows how they're speaking to you, how
they're treating you is not right. It's a part of
you that saying it's time to protect, it's time to defend. Why,
Because I'm precious. When we estrange ourselves from anger, we
estrange ourselves from self worth. Come on, So you say
trauma can be resolved, it can be healed. Is that
(20:30):
the right word? Yeah? Well, I would say healing is
not just some instant removing. Yeah, for sure. Healing really
is a journey and a posture. This is an example
of how trauma can be healed. Right. So if someone
experiences a deep trigger related to door slamming, right, you
(20:50):
can work through that and be desensitized to door slamming. Right.
It may take time, It takes work, it'll definitely take
some courage, right, But there is a world in which
there may be a door slam and you won't jump.
There may be a door slam and you're not deeply
distressed about it or deeply triggered by it. And I
(21:11):
think a lot of us this is what makes the
trauma recovery process so hard, as we're getting all this information,
but then we're not getting the hope that accompanies it,
finding out all the things that are wrong with us,
but we're not getting the information that tells us and
something can be done. Come on, you use the word desensitize.
Were you referring to a technique called EMDR that you
(21:33):
can be desensitized or were you would a different thing? Yes, yes,
absolutely so. I utilize MDR with a lot of my clients,
and that's really what got me into the therapy world.
I received my own MDR. MDR. It was funny is
EMDR through a therapist who wasn't a believer was probably
what strengthened my faith. One of the things I love
(21:54):
so much about trauma is like, I feel like trauma
once you know the way there, you know the way back,
when you know the lie the enemy is trying to
solve your life, you know the very opposition of that lines,
which is true of you, and even when you don't
feel it, you can hold onto it. And so EMDR
was life changing for me, identifying the core lie, working
through that, developing a desensitization to my past where I
(22:17):
wasn't desensitizing the way of I don't care, but it
no longer distressed to the level of shutting me down anymore.
I can acknowledge what happened and still show up as myself.
That's so good. One of an EMDR session I had,
I literally walked out and I was I felt like
I could fly because the words I left out of
(22:38):
that session was that was a lie. Yes, you mean
to tell me I was believing a lie. So what
we're talking about EMDR is eye movement, decentsitization, read processes.
That's right. It's a technique that therapists used to help
release trauma to your body. I had EMDR Cobe. I
(23:00):
went to discuss something that happened in adulthood. Why did
we find out something from childhood? And the trauma began
to be released from my legs. Yes, and I let
out the ugliest wail and cry and the therapist, she said,
(23:27):
please excuse my language. But you've been carrying a lot
of you've been holding on to and so it triggered
me to post what have you been holding on to
that I didn't know from childhood? Because sometimes as a
child growing up you feel like you have to hold
on to trauma because you don't feel like, who can
(23:49):
I tell without feeling like you're airing out family stuff stuff,
And then layers on. I was a child that came
from a respected family, Emily, So if you say something,
does it tarnish that image? Yeah? So you're holding onto
a lot of things. And then I get into a
business where your image cannot be tarnished. So you hold
(24:14):
onto a lot of things unless you decide to disclose
things out of feeling the need to be transparent. Right,
but even sometimes in this business or even as you
as a therapist, when you're transparent, it can make people
like to know that you had to go through therapy
as a therapist, people be like might think you're weak
(24:34):
or I need to go somebody perfect that. No, you
want to go to somebody that's experienced trauma. You want
to feel like a public figure can identify with where
you are. And so that word you said desensitization, and
this podcast will be two hours if we go into
so many experiences. But thank you for that, and thank
you for allowing me to share. And I think that
(24:58):
you touched on something that's so powerful. The things that
are in our adulthood that really really hurt us are
often mirrors to things that happen when where our childhood.
You know, there's like a phrase in the therapy world,
if the response is hysterical, it's historical. Right. If the
response is so big it's disprop disproportionate to what's in
(25:20):
front of you, that's because there's some history there with that.
There's some history there with that rejection or that of
bandon meant that feeling silence, right, So you know, if
it's hysterical, it's historical. And I think a lot of
us think we're going in for like friends stuff or
things with our partner, things with our career, and we
get into that closed room with that therapist and we're
(25:43):
sitting right beside our child self. I couldn't believe it
as I wait a minute, wait, wait, wait, wait wait
wait wait, I didn't make the session. I didn't make
this appointment for this. Yeah, well, honey, that's what it
turned into, and so much freedom was in the room.
She a therapist came and set aside me and did
a nice appropriate side hug to let the tears flow,
(26:05):
and she kept saying, you're safe, You're safe, You're safe.
And so I have a whole other session to tackle
that that was revealed in that session. Yea, So I'm excited,
so excited for people like Kobe that are helping people
release trauma one individual at a time. Now, how do
(26:29):
you feel as a trauma therapist and wellness advocate? Do
you feel bad where you're like, I just want to
save everybody. I'm want to heal everybody of their trauma
or be a vessel that helps people heal from their trauma.
I feel motivated. I feel committed, you know, I feel
like part of why I wrote this book, this book
is really meant to be a trauma one to one
(26:50):
for like black women who are Christians, like and for me,
I felt like there's no resources. I struggle to find
someone to guide me and help me and help me understand.
And books are such a safe way to learn because
you get the information, but you don't have to share
if you're not ready with anybody, right, So I feel
really motivated. And you know, my husband's always like, you
(27:13):
work a lot, you're up working, and I do need
to set some boundaries. But the truth is that was
called for something. He said, you work a lot. Uh huh, yeah, yeah, yeah,
But I work a lot because I love what I
do and I believe that healing is possible because I remember,
I remember sitting in a room and thinking that not
(27:34):
waking up was the only option for my life. And
now I wake up excited. I wake up ready to
show up for other people, ready to show up for myself.
And I'm like, man, I want other people. I want
other women, I want other humans, other black people to
know that this is possible and experience it and to
(27:55):
know that God shows up in different ways. And God
might show up in that therapy session, you might. One
of my favorite post traumatic growth is like this concept
that talks about how when people experience trauma and they
really begin to heal from it, they actually live fuller
lives than people who didn't experience traumas like they did.
(28:17):
One of the principles of post traumatic growth is from
deep doubt can emerge a great faith, and I think
that is what healing trauma is like it's falling apart,
just to see how everything came together in a way
you couldn't even imagine so good trauma and faith. Yeah,
(28:41):
and how I remember feeling like, when you see trauma,
it's got to be something that errs on CNN or
First forty eight transitioning to another state as a child
could have been traumatic. Yep. You know, you go from
having your safe group of friends to walking into a
school and rule North Dakota don't know nobody, you know,
(29:03):
that can definitely be trauma. Or I remember, you know,
I wish I would have known earlier that therapy and
healing from trauma is just not a white people thing,
or it's not a class thing. Only rich white people
voted therapy, only rich white people get a chance to
heal from their trauma. And the very first therapy session
(29:25):
that I went to, somebody was just sitting there in
like a sweatshirt and some jeans, and I was like,
I don't know what their economic state was, but I
felt like it had a look to it, you know
what I mean. And so when you said you're writing
this book for black women of faith, because we were,
we were taught that just pray about it. Yea sweeping
(29:47):
under the rug and hopefully God to find that prayer
one day under the rug and deal with it. How
much literally sweeping trauma under the rug. You go get
married with that trauma in you, and then you have
a husband or wife who's feeling like I don't ever
make you happy? Yeah, yeah, because you're looking to them
(30:10):
to heal something or feel avoid that trauma maybe has
extracted out of you trust, lack of trust or there
So we deserve we deserve that healing from trauma. Speaking
of speaking of relationships, there was a post where you
were talking about trauma and relationships and how it can
(30:33):
definitely show up in our romantic relationships and how you
believe that there are long lasting effects of trauma you
bring it into relationships or from relationships. Ye. For those
that are listening, how can you tell Lord? Because now
y'all let me tell you something. Kobe this checking in family,
(30:56):
they're gonna be assessing people. But I don't know if
I could be a relationship with you until you heal
your trauma. Is it wise to be in a relationship
with someone that has unresolved trauma? Well, you know, I
really do think that that is a personal choice. I
think that there is a part of trauma healing that
(31:17):
comes from getting information and understanding how we're wounded. But
relational pain is healed relationally. You can get all the information,
but until you take the risk to re enter relationship again,
it's not fully resolved. It happened in the context of
relationship that has to be healed in the context of relationship.
And why is that Caause I promise you some months
(31:38):
ago I was like, oh, this work is working. It's
like yeah, because the only person here is the walls, yeah,
and your TV. Then you bring somebody in and you're like, oh,
let me call my therapist again, because this is bubbling.
Something is bubbling, And it don't mean I didn't do
the work in the work market. Is that sometimes you
don't know till you get in a relationship. Why is
(32:01):
it that relationship brings stuff up? Should relationships just be
EASSy and just be pished? I truly wish relationships take
away our ability to predict. We're connecting to someone with
their own internal world and own internal experiences, and so
(32:22):
relationships or the place in which we live out our
principles and also learn about other people's principles, learn about
how other people show up in the world, learn about
other people's pain. And it really is a personal decision
to say I can bear with you in this or
I can't. Sometimes our trauma may interact too deeply with
someone else's trauma and we really may need some space.
(32:45):
And sometimes someone else can be a healing presence, someone
can be a reminder that like, oh, I can be
in a bad mood and be loved. I can have
a rough day and be celebrated. Okay, So should you
look for that in a relationship versus the other? Because
if a relationship is always triggering something, is that a
safe relationship? Now it's not safe? No, okay no, No,
(33:08):
by nature of being triggered, you're not. Your body's being
triggered is literally your body activating the nervous system related
to fear. So if your relationship is always triggering you, no,
a relationship should be more safe than anything. But there's
always risk. It's not wrong to experience a level of fear,
(33:29):
not fear by way of like oh I'm going to
be hurt or harmed, but fear by way of I
need to be vulnerable I'm going to speak up, I'm
going to assert my boundaries, that type of that type
of pre necessary. But I think that relationships show us
the parts of ourselves that we often try to tuck away. Listen, Okay,
(33:50):
so y'all listen. This is what she do for a living.
And I do have my own therapist, so I'm not
trying to get a free session out her, free nugget
out of her. But way, So, someone was telling me,
they said they feel like they know me, but they
were like, I don't know things like what you struggle
with or your fears. And I said, what am I
(34:12):
just supposed to volunteer that information? You know what I
struggle with, you know what I fear? Like, no, it's
not that I'm tucking it away, but it's so I
was just like, Okay, So, I guess that's the part
where I'm people say you're not vulnerable enough right now.
A person can be vulnerable, but then it's you're vulnerable
at the most inappropriate times or it comes out in
(34:34):
an inappropriate way. Yeah. I think that we have to
understand that vulnerability is a moving target and nobody can
master it. We have to be careful about the idea
of being like, oh, I'm always a vulnerable person, because
vulnerability is a moving target. Once you have shared something
enough that it doesn't feel vulnerable, now vulnerability looks like
something else. Also, vulnerability is not for everyone. Vulnerability is
(34:59):
not for everyone. We have to remember God created our
nervous system to rest in a sense of safety and
to only experience that sense of alert activation when danger
is around. If being vulnerable always activates that danger of response,
then maybe we need to figure out how to be
vulnerable with ourselves before we invite other people in. Because
(35:21):
sometimes our vulnerability can be performative, right, like people saying
I need to know this about you so that I
can feel like you're human. But I'm human whether I
give you my sensitive information or not, And that's up
to you whether you want to treat me as such,
because you never know. Sometimes you're vulnerable with people and
it is saved and compartmentalized for a moment to be
(35:44):
used as ammunition later. That's true. That's true, and I
think that safety is something we should prioritize emotionally with ourselves.
Do I feel safe sharing this information with them? If not,
it's okay to say no. People are not entitled to
our stories, entitled to our pain. They're not entitled to
our fears. And when we want to gift them with
(36:04):
the part of ourselves that's vulnerable and sacred, we should
do so. When we do so, even if we're a
little nervous, we should do so with joy and not
with fear. Okay, okay, y'all. Well, I'm just so excited again.
I gotta circle back her amazing book titled Why Am
I Life This? Y'all? I don't even know if that's
(36:26):
the emotion she had when she wrote the title, Why
am I Life This? How to break cycles He'll from
trauma and restore your faith? Maybe two more questions. And
I know you're on APR role, but when we want
to talk about effects from the pandemic and what has
been you think we've pretty much gone back to normal.
(36:48):
But are you still seeing the effects of trauma from
the pandemic. Now, I'm gonna be honest with you. I
don't think I experienced trauma from the pandemic because, honey,
when they locked us dog, I was like, yes, But
then there are some people. This is not to take
(37:08):
away the loss of lives. Yeah, for sure, jobs and
the way people knew life to be. I like to
be home anyway. So I'm just gonna be honest to everybody.
I love you, and my heart goes out to you,
especially for those who thrive with human connection. I was okay, yeah,
(37:29):
so I don't have no trauma from the pandemic. I
learned how to cook with an air frier cope, and
my chicken weeds are banging. Okay. So are you still
seeing effects from twenty twenty? Absolutely? Absolutely, I think I'm
seeing and study show there's a rising anxiety. You know,
(37:51):
a lot of people are anxious there. We're realizing just
how quickly the world that we've created can be destabilized.
You know. I remember they were like, it's gonna be
two weeks and back to normal. I was like, yeah,
I need a two week break. And then by month five,
I found out I was pregnant with my second born
(38:11):
two weeks before lockdown started. So I'm like, okay, the
kids got to go back to daycare thing something, and
I was panicking. I was anxious. I was, and I
had a lot of people feel that way. Also. I
will say this, a lot of I've never been and
I know every therapist is slammed. Right now. We are booked.
(38:34):
We are booked out right. The pandemic left people the
space to begin to remember a lot of their childhood trauma.
A lot of clients coming in, and I've spoken to
other clinicians who are like, yep, yep, same here. Beginning
when you're stuck in the house all day and you
don't really have to work, there's the same way you do.
(38:55):
Your attention can kind of be here in present because
a lot of us, how many of us I've actually
gotten long term time alone with ourselves. None, We've been
a lot when people out here working since they were
sixteen years old. Before that, they were in school with extracurriculars,
and and like, how many of us really have time
to just sit And a lot of people start to
(39:17):
remember their childhood trauma and say, oh, I started having
this dream because sometimes repressed memories can come up as dreams.
Have this dream of myself as a kid, or I
just keep having this thought or this image flashing in
my head. And they're realizing these aren't dreams, these aren't
just the images, these are memories. And so a lot
of people are still I know a lot of my
(39:38):
clients and a lot of clients that my colleagues have
are still dealing with that today. Listen, y'all if we
don't tell you in anything else. First of all, my
prayer for you is that therapists they start finding room
in their schedule, especially for my checking in family to
(40:01):
where you're like, you know, I hear what they're talking about.
And I want to let y'all know processing with the
therapist doesn't always have to be sad and full of tears.
There are moments where I've laughed in my session and
walked out like, did I just waste her time because
we literally talked about crawfish? Or you know what I mean.
So I don't want people to I tell people sometimes
(40:23):
going to therapy and having a therapist isn't always to
process trauma. Yeah, sometimes it's just a listening ear about
I'm making a transition from one job to the next,
or living on one stage to the next, or this
is one lingering thing in this relationship that I'm in it,
you know what I'm saying. It can be that in
trauma or just so I just want to encourage people.
(40:46):
Sometimes certain decisions that we are scared to make, refuse
to make can be rerooted, and how we make decisions
in childhood and why we were making certain decisions. So
we just want to encourage you. You mentioned that this
book was for um, Well, I knew there was a
niche and y'all. Sometimes when you have a publisher, you
(41:06):
know it's like who's your target audience? And so you
were talking about black women and women of faith, because
sometimes women don't know that you're super women in the house,
but you don't know. You can break away in prayer,
you can break away with the therapist, and you don't
always just have to sweep stuff under the rug. Yeah,
what is the next thing out of this book that
(41:26):
your hope is for people to take away? Oh, that
God is a resource for their healing journey and not
a critic of their pain resource and not a critic
you're pay He's not sitting up there with a clipboard.
Oh yeah, like why are you doing that? He knows
(41:46):
exactly why, he knows how the traumatized body responds. He's
not He's not annoyed because you're in a bad mood today.
He's not angry or withholding his love because you're triggered
today because you have a flash back today and that
was a shift for me, And that was a game
changer for me, feeling like God is with me in this.
(42:08):
He's not annoyed and waiting for me to get over
it so that he can bless me and give me
the life my dreams. Okay, are you the first in
your family to do this work and be a recipient
of the work of therapy? Yeah? How is that? But
I love it. My family and they are incredible. They're great,
They're they're open, they're open hearted. Myka're open hearted, My
(42:32):
siblings are open hearted. My husband's open hearted. You know.
I made him go to therapy a step I said,
you got to go. I don't care. And the rule
I gave him was, when you go to therapy, you
don't have to tell me a single thing. Yeah. That
was something that like the goal of therapy what you
talked about laughing with your therapists. The goal is that
you have a safe and confidential space. Okay, so good,
(42:55):
so good, so good, y'all listen again. Code A. Cam B,
author of I'm Gonna Say It, best selling book number
one in tons of genres. Why Am I like this?
How to Break Cycles? Heal from trauma and restore your faith. Yes, you,
the person listening, can break cycles. Yes you, the person listening,
(43:17):
can heal from trauma. Yes you, the person listening, can
have your faith restored. All right, So Cove, thank you
so much for joining us today. I promise you there's
gonna be breakthrough from people listening to this episode. Yes,
I believe that. I believe it. Thank you so much
for having me. You are welcome. Aren't y'all like feeling
(43:45):
like you can make it? Aren't you feeling like tempted
to go book a therapist? Aren't you tempted to see
what therapy is about. Yeah, I'm telling you go go
and guess what, just because if you don't find it
the first go round, keep looking. I'm telling you I'm here.
(44:09):
I hear a few testimonies per year, Saint Michelle, I
had to go to like two, but I found my one.
I found my therapist, So I encourage you. There is
a song called Fear Is Not It's like you're instead
of saying hello to Piece when you wake up in
the morning, it's like anxiety is waiting for you at
(44:30):
the door. Right. This song says hello Piece, Hello Joy,
Hello Love, Hello Strength, hello, Hope. It's a new horizon.
It says, fear is not my future, Sickness is not
my story, heartbreak is not my home. Death is not
the end. But you are What is that? You are? Hope, love, life, protection, success,
(45:02):
all things God. Yes, So that's what I'm gonna leave
you with. Please let me know how you feel about
this episode. Send me some love in the DMS. I
like y'all that. Send me some love and interact with
me and let me know that these episodes have been
blessing you. All right, take care. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey.
(45:35):
If you live in Atlanta or you're like, you know what,
I think. I just want to catch a flight, not feelings,
you know. I think I want to take a road
trip to be in Atlanta on April twenty second for
the first Black Effect Podcast Festival. All right, it's gonna
be live podcasts from your favorite shows. I'm excited about
(45:58):
the live podcast Fassible because it's going to be the
first one, so I know it's gonna be amazing, And
I'm so glad that Charlotte Mane chose to have it
home where I live. I don't know if he did
it for me, but I'm just gonna put it out there.
He did it because of me. Okay, so listen, come
and check me out, Come check me out. I'm gonna
(46:20):
be with the girls from Reasonably Shady. There's so many more.
We're gonna rock it out. Okay. Tickets are available at
black affect dot com. Get your tickets today at black
affect dot com. All right, I want to see you
there because if I don't, I'm gonna be mad and
then I'll have to go get therapy. All right, So
(46:42):
just come see your girl. Checking In with Michelle Williams
is a production of iHeartRadio and The Black Effect. For
more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Checking In with Michelle Williams, a production of
My Heart Radio and The Black Effect. Hey there, I'm
(00:20):
just wondering, is there anybody listening who feels like you've
been too hurt to heal. You've been taking advantage of
so much that you're like, it is impossible to trust.
Love isn't for me. I am just gonna be at
the bottom of the barrel. I'm just going to carry.
(00:42):
It's just meant for me to carry generational trauma. I
remember somebody told me, I promise you guys, they said, Michelle,
my mom told me to stop trying to be successful
because nobody in our family is successful, So just plan
on like us. And I was like, what it's like.
(01:05):
I couldn't even be mad at her mother because that
had to have been passed down. You literally feel like, no,
we are to just struggle. Absolutely not. So that's why
I'm just so thankful for our next guest who is
checking in. She's a licensed therapist. She's got a brand
(01:27):
new book. Why am I like this, How to Break
cycles Hell from Trauma and Restore your faith. You guys,
She's out here doing her thing. So this episode it's
for you. It is another beautiful day here with checking In.
(01:48):
I'm so grateful for everybody that continues to tune in, subscribe,
download again. We cannot do checking In without you. The
great thing about my podcast is I love having people
that actually, well it's good for y'all too, who know
what they're talking about, who are passionate about what they
talk about, who sometimes even speak from a place of
(02:10):
their own experiences and human moments that they have had
through life. And I am so excited to have with
us author wellness advocate, trauma therapist like she's got credentials, y'all,
she got the lettuce behind her name, and an amazing
podcaster who's been making waves on social media by being
(02:34):
so transparent and honest and so informative. Please give it
up a checking in. Welcome to Kobe Campbell. Hello, thank
you for having me. You are so so welcome. I
know you're a well, a deep well of information. Where
(02:56):
you come from? What? Who are your mom and them?
Where y'all was born and raised? Well? Where are you from? Well?
I like to say that I'm gonna My parents are
from Ghana, West Africa, but I come by way of Vancouver, Canada.
I was actually born in Canada, personally raised in Canada,
and then my family moved from Canada to Greensboro, North Carolina,
(03:17):
and I've been here in North Carolina ever since. Yeah,
my people in name is African. Let me tell you something.
You have the best of so many worlds and cultures,
guyanaan Canadian in good old southern Greensboro. You well can't
get the more southern ben Greensboro. That's correct, then Greensboro.
(03:39):
I've spent some time in Vancouver last year filming, and
it it's one of the most beautiful coregities. I had
had only been twice, but the time span of how
long it had been since I'd been to Vancouver was
a long time rainy. But I could tell it's beautiful
when it's spring, Yeah, for sure, in summer and then
it's far as Ghanaian, I took my ancestry. I don't
(04:03):
know if you're tired of people when they say this,
no remever, so the majority of my African blood is
of Ghana. Oh my gosh, that's amazing. So we're a family.
We're a pretty much family. We are pretty much family.
So I am so proud of that. Then it goes
down to Nigerian and somebody was like, somebody told me,
(04:26):
I hate to use this word. I try not to
use this word. But they was like, no, wonder why
you're crazy. You got Gannaian and Nigerian and you we're
a passionate people, for sure. I like to use the
word passionate. Passionate people. And y'all that are listening who
are either from Nigeria or Ghana or Ghanaian parents Nigerian parents.
There is a war going on and it's been a
(04:50):
war for a long long time of who has the
best jalla rice? Who we inswered? His been established time
and time again. The dam people make the most flavorful
jeloff rice that anyone has ever tasted. So the war
is within themselves. Okay, it's not with us. They're at
(05:13):
war with themselves. So from a therapist standpoint, that's what
you're that's what your assessment is is you are at
war within yourself. Well, y'all heard it here and I'm
gonna take her and too for because she has studied
human dynamics behavior in psychology. Why this war has been
(05:33):
going on so long is because you are at war
within yourself and you won't resolve go to therapy to
accept that, yeah, you don't have the best and when
you're at war with yourself, other people are always the casualty.
Oh yeah, we can end this episode just here on
(05:56):
that Kobe, What a joy to have you and congratulations.
She has a book called Why Am I Like This?
How to Break Cycles, Heal from Trauma and Restore Your Faith,
where you offer all of us well a deeper understanding
of what trauma is and how it shows up in
our everyday lives. I love how we're talking about trauma
(06:20):
and faith because a lot of people have lost faith,
or maybe they get it back, but sometimes on your journey,
when you've gone through so much, you're like your faith
is shaken or absolutely pulled out from under you. So
I'm thankful that you are writing this book. We hear
the word trauma a lot, just like we hear so
(06:43):
many other words throwing them around. So trauma is talked about,
narcissism is being talked about, some of the two words
that are just kind of being thrown out there. But
can you tell our listeners what is trauma? And it's layered.
I know it's layered from my own mental health journey,
but what do you say it is. Yeah, absolutely, so.
(07:06):
I love to think of trauma. I think the most
digestible way to receive what trauma is. Trauma is a wound.
That's literally what the word translates to in the Greek wound.
Trauma is a wound of our past that affects our
present and our orientation to the future. It's something that
happened to us in the past, but our body, our mind,
(07:26):
our spirit, it's reliving it over and over again in
our everyday situation. So we're living this pain out of
context because our mind, our body, and spirits saying we're
not done with that. We need to talk about that,
we need to deal with that, and until we deal
with it, the way that we're oriented towards the future
is always going to be tainted. Amazing, amazing. Trauma is
(07:48):
a wound. And you sound it like a preacher there
when you say, because in the Greek those are y'all
that go to church something you know, if you know
you're no, that pastor is going to say, because in
the Greek means now you don't have to go into details,
but did you have your own life experiences that led
(08:09):
you into this field? Absolutely? I think it's hard to
find anybody who is passionate about trauma who is not
first experienced it and then become curious about it. You
know that wasn't for me, and you know I share
this in the book. But in twenty thirteen, I had
a suicide attempant and it wasn't one of those moments
where I was It wasn't a rash moment. It was
(08:32):
a tired moment. It was a rock bottom moment. It's
if I don't wake up tomorrow morning, I'll be okay moment.
And for me, I found myself so weary of fighting
for approval, feeling like I didn't get it, or if
I did get it, I only had it for a
little bit. Then I'm fighting for approval again. I just
got exhausted with this cycle. And I had this powerful
(08:55):
moment read about it in the book. I had a
powerful moment, excited to read it, y'all, we're going to
get this book, yes, yes, where I had this encounter
with the Lord and I was on fire. I was like, yes, Jesus,
let's go, Holy Spirit, and that high war off like
two weeks later, and then I was depressed again and
I couldn't understand it. So wait a minute. It is
(09:19):
okay to have a relationship with God, Yes, Jesus, yes,
the Lord. Yes, and be depressed. Who okay, I'm trying.
I don't want to get into the preacher bag. Yes.
And if if we dare to actually look at scripture
through the lens of what we've only been taught, we'll
(09:39):
find that to be true in God's word. Right, we
look at numbers eleven, Moses is staying to the Lord,
I didn't birth these people. I didn't birth these Israelites.
They're knocking down my door asking for me, and he says,
just have mercy on me and kill me. That's suicidal ideation,
that's depression. That's anxiety. Right there with Moses, we see it.
(10:00):
King's nineteen with Elijah. He says, I know better than
my ancestors take my life. He lays down, hoping that
he'll go to sleep and not wake up. You think
we're the only people do that way. So monumental people,
people of faith also deal with these human emotions and
feelings thoughts, when something seems too hard to bear, something
(10:25):
that seems too hard to overcome. I was speaking with
a friend of mine and he said, he knows. I
don't know what year twenty twenty twenty one, he said,
over two hundred days out of that year he kept saying,
God take me, God take me, God take me, Take me,
God take me. And this person would be considered very
(10:46):
high in faith. But things happened, and like you say,
you're tired, you're feeling overlooked. You feel like all the
good that you're doing and working and people can be like, well,
why are you looking at things from that lens is
because you're allowing yourself to be human. Yeah. Yeah, And
Jesus is the greatest example of being human. And Jesus says,
(11:10):
I've grieved to the point of death, that suicidal audiation
to the point of death. And we can get into
the trauma because he saw some stuff. Things were done
to him that were traumatic. When you think of someone
being in the garden, I believe that's where he was.
(11:31):
Where was he when he was bleeding blood or something
that was coming out of his pores that's considered blood. Yeah, yep.
And when we think about the definition of trauma, we
have to really think about what Jesus experienced through the
lens of he was wounded. For our transgressions. If the
(11:51):
word trauma translates to the word wound, he was traumatized
for our transgressions. We have a Lord, We have a
Savior who knows what it's like to be traumatized, who
knows what it's like to be deeply wounded, to know,
who knows what it's like to be anxious, and in
the will of God depressed, and in the will of
God suicidal ideation, and in the will of God, because
(12:13):
Jesus was the will of God. Oh, Kobe, come on, somebody,
this is so good. So when you come out of
scripture and folks in the Bible, historical figures of today,
or a man who sits in Congress, or a senator
just in the state of Pennsylvania has checked himself into
(12:37):
a treatment facility for depression. Yeah, so these are people
where you're like, you're supposed to help protect my state
by being this vessel. And the same with God. You're like,
you're supposed to be this person Jesus, You're supposed to
be this person that is high and lifted up. So basically, y'all,
no one is immune yeah to trauma. Okay, so what
(12:59):
if you're sitting in here saying, well, I don't believe
in any of that that y'all are talking about. I
don't believe in Jesus. Guess what. You don't have to
believe in Jesus to have had trauma? Yeah, a recipient
of trauma or someone who has seen somebody you know
deal with some trauma. Do you think trauma is different
(13:23):
from PTSD? Well, how do they differ? Well? I think
trauma manifests as PTSD and some people, right, And PTSD
it's really it is a diagnosis that is in the
mental health field. Right, So people's trauma can show up
very differently. And I say that because it's important for
us to know that as black people, as black women,
(13:46):
because we may not have the flashbacks everybody else has. Right,
We may not have the night terrors. We may not
have We may just have a persistent sense of anxiety.
We may just feel like our chest is always closing in.
We just may struggle to have to remember things. Or
we may be able to perform and do the things
and show up and lead the charge and encourage other people.
(14:10):
But that doesn't mean we have we don't have trauma, right,
And PTSD is really a list of very specific trauma
responses and how they manifest, and that is how trauma
can manifest. But I also want us to be careful
that there's still a lot of research being done about trauma.
I mean, there was just a study that showed the
depression does not show up in the way that is
(14:31):
listed in the diagnostic manual in Black women. That's not
how it shows up for us. Because we can out
a bend, we can put on a face, we can
serve other people, we can lead the small group, we
can do all the things and still be depressed. And
so even though PTSD is a way that it manifests,
it's not the only way that it manifests. You know
(14:53):
why it shows up for us in that way because
we were back in that time, in the time of slavery,
building a country. Yeah, we didn't have a choice. Like
you said, you can lead a meeting and be traumatized,
where a lot of women didn't have a choice to
be in the fields in the hot sun picking cotton, traumatized,
still having a family to take care of, or maybe
(15:15):
your family was ripped apart from you. I believe that
that some of why black women can get up because
it's generational it's passed down. We don't have a choice survival.
And then I'm wondering, what are your thoughts on surviving
dysfunction And the reason why we didn't think it was
dysfunction is because we survived it. Yes, Oh my goodness,
(15:38):
that's such a good point. Yeah, I think that survival
has been the baseline for so long because of the
history of this country, you know, because of colonialism oversees,
because of slavery here, because of Jim Crow, because of
all the things we have really felt like surviving is it.
But yet there's a life where we can thrive. There's
a life where we can be more than us alive.
(16:01):
And yet we've been taught to just be satisfied with
being alive, and we have a generation of people who
are alive but struggling, like being a life is not enough.
We've got to feel at home in our bodies. And
you know, you said something powerful For people who don't
believe in Jesus or have the same religious perspective. Why
I love all of this, it's because you don't have
(16:23):
to share a spiritual to belief to adhere to the
reality of the biological reality. Right, you're talking about things
being passed down. That's called epigenetics. The trauma that we
don't resolve is actually encoded into our DNA and then
pass down to our children. And I love this field
because it gives us language for what we already know.
(16:43):
That's why when someone has a problem with alcoholism, we say, oh, well,
his daddy used to drink and his granddaddy used to drink.
We're talking about epigenetics. We had knowledge of something before
we had true language for it. Right. The distress that
you're feeling is biologically encoded. That's why there's some things
that will make you jumping. You don't know why. That's
why some people make you uncomfortable, and you may not
(17:04):
have language for it. And it's so important that we
know that just because you don't acknowledge your trauma doesn't
mean your trauma is not showing up in your everyday life. Okay,
so code do you and I and others that are listening,
do we have to pass it down? No, we don't
have to. How do we not by resolving our trauma?
(17:28):
That I think one of the craziest things that a
lot of people don't know. As we're sharing information on
the internet, all the things trauma can be resolved. Trauma
can be resolved. You can heal from trauma. But healing
does not look like what many of us think it
looks like. We think healing means I don't remember it.
(17:48):
We think healing means when I look back on it
and no longer hurts me anymore. The same way that
our brain is wired through repetition, our brain is rewired
through repetition. That means some people were traumatized by things
happening to them over and over again. But we can
experience healing by acting in opposition to that trauma over
(18:09):
and over again. The same system that encodes our trauma
is the same system that encodes our healing. So healing
doesn't always feel spy like, oh no, no, you glip
this in the area. Oh no, your body being scrubbed
fritz stof No. Healing is often becoming awakened to the
(18:32):
human experience, And I think that's why so many people
become confused. You know, as we experience trauma, we shut
down our emotions, we ignore them, we turn our backs
on part of ourselves we feel uncomfortable with or unsafe with.
And when we heal, we become we get access to
the full range of emotions, because a full range of
emotions is needed for a full life. Jesus needed the
(18:55):
full range of emotions. The goal is not to never
feel sad. The goal is not to feel angry. The
goals know what to do with the sadness, what to
do with the anger, what to do with the confusion,
the jealousy, the shame. It's figuring out what to do
with it, which means you have to get acquainted with it.
You don't know how to interact with someone until you
spend time with them. And a lot of us aren't
spending time with our emotions enough to understand first what
(19:18):
they're indicating. Because all things God creates has purpose, So
what's the purpose of this emotion? For a lot of people,
they don't know. Anger is an emotion that indicates a
need for protection. So you're over here shaming yourself for
feeling angry, but actually you're anger is an indicator that
you're developing self worth, and now you're not okay with
being treated like that. Come on, come on, okay, okay, okay,
(19:44):
So you don't have to, like you say, we don't
have to feel bad for being angry. It gives you
that rights that indignation to change to like you said,
to not settle. Yeah, because unfortunately you had to experience
something that made you angry enough to change. Yes. Yeah,
it's a reminder that there's a part of you that
knows exactly who you are, and there's a part of
(20:06):
you that knows that you deserve more. There's a part
of you that knows how they're speaking to you, how
they're treating you is not right. It's a part of
you that saying it's time to protect, it's time to defend. Why,
Because I'm precious. When we estrange ourselves from anger, we
estrange ourselves from self worth. Come on, So you say
trauma can be resolved, it can be healed. Is that
(20:30):
the right word? Yeah? Well, I would say healing is
not just some instant removing. Yeah, for sure. Healing really
is a journey and a posture. This is an example
of how trauma can be healed. Right. So if someone
experiences a deep trigger related to door slamming, right, you
(20:50):
can work through that and be desensitized to door slamming. Right.
It may take time, It takes work, it'll definitely take
some courage, right, But there is a world in which
there may be a door slam and you won't jump.
There may be a door slam and you're not deeply
distressed about it or deeply triggered by it. And I
(21:11):
think a lot of us this is what makes the
trauma recovery process so hard, as we're getting all this information,
but then we're not getting the hope that accompanies it,
finding out all the things that are wrong with us,
but we're not getting the information that tells us and
something can be done. Come on, you use the word desensitize.
Were you referring to a technique called EMDR that you
(21:33):
can be desensitized or were you would a different thing? Yes, yes,
absolutely so. I utilize MDR with a lot of my clients,
and that's really what got me into the therapy world.
I received my own MDR. MDR. It was funny is
EMDR through a therapist who wasn't a believer was probably
what strengthened my faith. One of the things I love
(21:54):
so much about trauma is like, I feel like trauma
once you know the way there, you know the way back,
when you know the lie the enemy is trying to
solve your life, you know the very opposition of that lines,
which is true of you, and even when you don't
feel it, you can hold onto it. And so EMDR
was life changing for me, identifying the core lie, working
through that, developing a desensitization to my past where I
(22:17):
wasn't desensitizing the way of I don't care, but it
no longer distressed to the level of shutting me down anymore.
I can acknowledge what happened and still show up as myself.
That's so good. One of an EMDR session I had,
I literally walked out and I was I felt like
I could fly because the words I left out of
(22:38):
that session was that was a lie. Yes, you mean
to tell me I was believing a lie. So what
we're talking about EMDR is eye movement, decentsitization, read processes.
That's right. It's a technique that therapists used to help
release trauma to your body. I had EMDR Cobe. I
(23:00):
went to discuss something that happened in adulthood. Why did
we find out something from childhood? And the trauma began
to be released from my legs. Yes, and I let
out the ugliest wail and cry and the therapist, she said,
(23:27):
please excuse my language. But you've been carrying a lot
of you've been holding on to and so it triggered
me to post what have you been holding on to
that I didn't know from childhood? Because sometimes as a
child growing up you feel like you have to hold
on to trauma because you don't feel like, who can
(23:49):
I tell without feeling like you're airing out family stuff stuff,
And then layers on. I was a child that came
from a respected family, Emily, So if you say something,
does it tarnish that image? Yeah? So you're holding onto
a lot of things. And then I get into a
business where your image cannot be tarnished. So you hold
(24:14):
onto a lot of things unless you decide to disclose
things out of feeling the need to be transparent. Right,
but even sometimes in this business or even as you
as a therapist, when you're transparent, it can make people
like to know that you had to go through therapy
as a therapist, people be like might think you're weak
(24:34):
or I need to go somebody perfect that. No, you
want to go to somebody that's experienced trauma. You want
to feel like a public figure can identify with where
you are. And so that word you said desensitization, and
this podcast will be two hours if we go into
so many experiences. But thank you for that, and thank
you for allowing me to share. And I think that
(24:58):
you touched on something that's so powerful. The things that
are in our adulthood that really really hurt us are
often mirrors to things that happen when where our childhood.
You know, there's like a phrase in the therapy world,
if the response is hysterical, it's historical. Right. If the
response is so big it's disprop disproportionate to what's in
(25:20):
front of you, that's because there's some history there with that.
There's some history there with that rejection or that of
bandon meant that feeling silence, right, So you know, if
it's hysterical, it's historical. And I think a lot of
us think we're going in for like friends stuff or
things with our partner, things with our career, and we
get into that closed room with that therapist and we're
(25:43):
sitting right beside our child self. I couldn't believe it
as I wait a minute, wait, wait, wait, wait wait
wait wait, I didn't make the session. I didn't make
this appointment for this. Yeah, well, honey, that's what it
turned into, and so much freedom was in the room.
She a therapist came and set aside me and did
a nice appropriate side hug to let the tears flow,
(26:05):
and she kept saying, you're safe, You're safe, You're safe.
And so I have a whole other session to tackle
that that was revealed in that session. Yea, So I'm excited,
so excited for people like Kobe that are helping people
release trauma one individual at a time. Now, how do
(26:29):
you feel as a trauma therapist and wellness advocate? Do
you feel bad where you're like, I just want to
save everybody. I'm want to heal everybody of their trauma
or be a vessel that helps people heal from their trauma.
I feel motivated. I feel committed, you know, I feel
like part of why I wrote this book, this book
is really meant to be a trauma one to one
(26:50):
for like black women who are Christians, like and for me,
I felt like there's no resources. I struggle to find
someone to guide me and help me and help me understand.
And books are such a safe way to learn because
you get the information, but you don't have to share
if you're not ready with anybody, right, So I feel
really motivated. And you know, my husband's always like, you
(27:13):
work a lot, you're up working, and I do need
to set some boundaries. But the truth is that was
called for something. He said, you work a lot. Uh huh, yeah, yeah, yeah,
But I work a lot because I love what I
do and I believe that healing is possible because I remember,
I remember sitting in a room and thinking that not
(27:34):
waking up was the only option for my life. And
now I wake up excited. I wake up ready to
show up for other people, ready to show up for myself.
And I'm like, man, I want other people. I want
other women, I want other humans, other black people to
know that this is possible and experience it and to
(27:55):
know that God shows up in different ways. And God
might show up in that therapy session, you might. One
of my favorite post traumatic growth is like this concept
that talks about how when people experience trauma and they
really begin to heal from it, they actually live fuller
lives than people who didn't experience traumas like they did.
(28:17):
One of the principles of post traumatic growth is from
deep doubt can emerge a great faith, and I think
that is what healing trauma is like it's falling apart,
just to see how everything came together in a way
you couldn't even imagine so good trauma and faith. Yeah,
(28:41):
and how I remember feeling like, when you see trauma,
it's got to be something that errs on CNN or
First forty eight transitioning to another state as a child
could have been traumatic. Yep. You know, you go from
having your safe group of friends to walking into a
school and rule North Dakota don't know nobody, you know,
(29:03):
that can definitely be trauma. Or I remember, you know,
I wish I would have known earlier that therapy and
healing from trauma is just not a white people thing,
or it's not a class thing. Only rich white people
voted therapy, only rich white people get a chance to
heal from their trauma. And the very first therapy session
(29:25):
that I went to, somebody was just sitting there in
like a sweatshirt and some jeans, and I was like,
I don't know what their economic state was, but I
felt like it had a look to it, you know
what I mean. And so when you said you're writing
this book for black women of faith, because we were,
we were taught that just pray about it. Yea sweeping
(29:47):
under the rug and hopefully God to find that prayer
one day under the rug and deal with it. How
much literally sweeping trauma under the rug. You go get
married with that trauma in you, and then you have
a husband or wife who's feeling like I don't ever
make you happy? Yeah, yeah, because you're looking to them
(30:10):
to heal something or feel avoid that trauma maybe has
extracted out of you trust, lack of trust or there
So we deserve we deserve that healing from trauma. Speaking
of speaking of relationships, there was a post where you
were talking about trauma and relationships and how it can
(30:33):
definitely show up in our romantic relationships and how you
believe that there are long lasting effects of trauma you
bring it into relationships or from relationships. Ye. For those
that are listening, how can you tell Lord? Because now
y'all let me tell you something. Kobe this checking in family,
(30:56):
they're gonna be assessing people. But I don't know if
I could be a relationship with you until you heal
your trauma. Is it wise to be in a relationship
with someone that has unresolved trauma? Well, you know, I
really do think that that is a personal choice. I
think that there is a part of trauma healing that
(31:17):
comes from getting information and understanding how we're wounded. But
relational pain is healed relationally. You can get all the information,
but until you take the risk to re enter relationship again,
it's not fully resolved. It happened in the context of
relationship that has to be healed in the context of relationship.
And why is that Caause I promise you some months
(31:38):
ago I was like, oh, this work is working. It's
like yeah, because the only person here is the walls, yeah,
and your TV. Then you bring somebody in and you're like, oh,
let me call my therapist again, because this is bubbling.
Something is bubbling, And it don't mean I didn't do
the work in the work market. Is that sometimes you
don't know till you get in a relationship. Why is
(32:01):
it that relationship brings stuff up? Should relationships just be
EASSy and just be pished? I truly wish relationships take
away our ability to predict. We're connecting to someone with
their own internal world and own internal experiences, and so
(32:22):
relationships or the place in which we live out our
principles and also learn about other people's principles, learn about
how other people show up in the world, learn about
other people's pain. And it really is a personal decision
to say I can bear with you in this or
I can't. Sometimes our trauma may interact too deeply with
someone else's trauma and we really may need some space.
(32:45):
And sometimes someone else can be a healing presence, someone
can be a reminder that like, oh, I can be
in a bad mood and be loved. I can have
a rough day and be celebrated. Okay, So should you
look for that in a relationship versus the other? Because
if a relationship is always triggering something, is that a
safe relationship? Now it's not safe? No, okay no, No,
(33:08):
by nature of being triggered, you're not. Your body's being
triggered is literally your body activating the nervous system related
to fear. So if your relationship is always triggering you, no,
a relationship should be more safe than anything. But there's
always risk. It's not wrong to experience a level of fear,
(33:29):
not fear by way of like oh I'm going to
be hurt or harmed, but fear by way of I
need to be vulnerable I'm going to speak up, I'm
going to assert my boundaries, that type of that type
of pre necessary. But I think that relationships show us
the parts of ourselves that we often try to tuck away. Listen, Okay,
(33:50):
so y'all listen. This is what she do for a living.
And I do have my own therapist, so I'm not
trying to get a free session out her, free nugget
out of her. But way, So, someone was telling me,
they said they feel like they know me, but they
were like, I don't know things like what you struggle
with or your fears. And I said, what am I
(34:12):
just supposed to volunteer that information? You know what I
struggle with, you know what I fear? Like, no, it's
not that I'm tucking it away, but it's so I
was just like, Okay, So, I guess that's the part
where I'm people say you're not vulnerable enough right now.
A person can be vulnerable, but then it's you're vulnerable
at the most inappropriate times or it comes out in
(34:34):
an inappropriate way. Yeah. I think that we have to
understand that vulnerability is a moving target and nobody can
master it. We have to be careful about the idea
of being like, oh, I'm always a vulnerable person, because
vulnerability is a moving target. Once you have shared something
enough that it doesn't feel vulnerable, now vulnerability looks like
something else. Also, vulnerability is not for everyone. Vulnerability is
(34:59):
not for everyone. We have to remember God created our
nervous system to rest in a sense of safety and
to only experience that sense of alert activation when danger
is around. If being vulnerable always activates that danger of response,
then maybe we need to figure out how to be
vulnerable with ourselves before we invite other people in. Because
(35:21):
sometimes our vulnerability can be performative, right, like people saying
I need to know this about you so that I
can feel like you're human. But I'm human whether I
give you my sensitive information or not, And that's up
to you whether you want to treat me as such,
because you never know. Sometimes you're vulnerable with people and
it is saved and compartmentalized for a moment to be
(35:44):
used as ammunition later. That's true. That's true, and I
think that safety is something we should prioritize emotionally with ourselves.
Do I feel safe sharing this information with them? If not,
it's okay to say no. People are not entitled to
our stories, entitled to our pain. They're not entitled to
our fears. And when we want to gift them with
(36:04):
the part of ourselves that's vulnerable and sacred, we should
do so. When we do so, even if we're a
little nervous, we should do so with joy and not
with fear. Okay, okay, y'all. Well, I'm just so excited again.
I gotta circle back her amazing book titled Why Am
I Life This? Y'all? I don't even know if that's
(36:26):
the emotion she had when she wrote the title, Why
am I Life This? How to break cycles He'll from
trauma and restore your faith? Maybe two more questions. And
I know you're on APR role, but when we want
to talk about effects from the pandemic and what has
been you think we've pretty much gone back to normal.
(36:48):
But are you still seeing the effects of trauma from
the pandemic. Now, I'm gonna be honest with you. I
don't think I experienced trauma from the pandemic because, honey,
when they locked us dog, I was like, yes, But
then there are some people. This is not to take
(37:08):
away the loss of lives. Yeah, for sure, jobs and
the way people knew life to be. I like to
be home anyway. So I'm just gonna be honest to everybody.
I love you, and my heart goes out to you,
especially for those who thrive with human connection. I was okay, yeah,
(37:29):
so I don't have no trauma from the pandemic. I
learned how to cook with an air frier cope, and
my chicken weeds are banging. Okay. So are you still
seeing effects from twenty twenty? Absolutely? Absolutely, I think I'm
seeing and study show there's a rising anxiety. You know,
(37:51):
a lot of people are anxious there. We're realizing just
how quickly the world that we've created can be destabilized.
You know. I remember they were like, it's gonna be
two weeks and back to normal. I was like, yeah,
I need a two week break. And then by month five,
I found out I was pregnant with my second born
(38:11):
two weeks before lockdown started. So I'm like, okay, the
kids got to go back to daycare thing something, and
I was panicking. I was anxious. I was, and I
had a lot of people feel that way. Also. I
will say this, a lot of I've never been and
I know every therapist is slammed. Right now. We are booked.
(38:34):
We are booked out right. The pandemic left people the
space to begin to remember a lot of their childhood trauma.
A lot of clients coming in, and I've spoken to
other clinicians who are like, yep, yep, same here. Beginning
when you're stuck in the house all day and you
don't really have to work, there's the same way you do.
(38:55):
Your attention can kind of be here in present because
a lot of us, how many of us I've actually
gotten long term time alone with ourselves. None, We've been
a lot when people out here working since they were
sixteen years old. Before that, they were in school with extracurriculars,
and and like, how many of us really have time
to just sit And a lot of people start to
(39:17):
remember their childhood trauma and say, oh, I started having
this dream because sometimes repressed memories can come up as dreams.
Have this dream of myself as a kid, or I
just keep having this thought or this image flashing in
my head. And they're realizing these aren't dreams, these aren't
just the images, these are memories. And so a lot
of people are still I know a lot of my
(39:38):
clients and a lot of clients that my colleagues have
are still dealing with that today. Listen, y'all if we
don't tell you in anything else. First of all, my
prayer for you is that therapists they start finding room
in their schedule, especially for my checking in family to
(40:01):
where you're like, you know, I hear what they're talking about.
And I want to let y'all know processing with the
therapist doesn't always have to be sad and full of tears.
There are moments where I've laughed in my session and
walked out like, did I just waste her time because
we literally talked about crawfish? Or you know what I mean.
So I don't want people to I tell people sometimes
(40:23):
going to therapy and having a therapist isn't always to
process trauma. Yeah, sometimes it's just a listening ear about
I'm making a transition from one job to the next,
or living on one stage to the next, or this
is one lingering thing in this relationship that I'm in it,
you know what I'm saying. It can be that in
trauma or just so I just want to encourage people.
(40:46):
Sometimes certain decisions that we are scared to make, refuse
to make can be rerooted, and how we make decisions
in childhood and why we were making certain decisions. So
we just want to encourage you. You mentioned that this
book was for um, Well, I knew there was a
niche and y'all. Sometimes when you have a publisher, you
(41:06):
know it's like who's your target audience? And so you
were talking about black women and women of faith, because
sometimes women don't know that you're super women in the house,
but you don't know. You can break away in prayer,
you can break away with the therapist, and you don't
always just have to sweep stuff under the rug. Yeah,
what is the next thing out of this book that
(41:26):
your hope is for people to take away? Oh, that
God is a resource for their healing journey and not
a critic of their pain resource and not a critic
you're pay He's not sitting up there with a clipboard.
Oh yeah, like why are you doing that? He knows
(41:46):
exactly why, he knows how the traumatized body responds. He's
not He's not annoyed because you're in a bad mood today.
He's not angry or withholding his love because you're triggered
today because you have a flash back today and that
was a shift for me, And that was a game
changer for me, feeling like God is with me in this.
(42:08):
He's not annoyed and waiting for me to get over
it so that he can bless me and give me
the life my dreams. Okay, are you the first in
your family to do this work and be a recipient
of the work of therapy? Yeah? How is that? But
I love it. My family and they are incredible. They're great,
They're they're open, they're open hearted. Myka're open hearted, My
(42:32):
siblings are open hearted. My husband's open hearted. You know.
I made him go to therapy a step I said,
you got to go. I don't care. And the rule
I gave him was, when you go to therapy, you
don't have to tell me a single thing. Yeah. That
was something that like the goal of therapy what you
talked about laughing with your therapists. The goal is that
you have a safe and confidential space. Okay, so good,
(42:55):
so good, so good, y'all listen again. Code A. Cam B,
author of I'm Gonna Say It, best selling book number
one in tons of genres. Why Am I like this?
How to Break Cycles? Heal from trauma and restore your faith. Yes, you,
the person listening, can break cycles. Yes you, the person listening,
(43:17):
can heal from trauma. Yes you, the person listening, can
have your faith restored. All right, So Cove, thank you
so much for joining us today. I promise you there's
gonna be breakthrough from people listening to this episode. Yes,
I believe that. I believe it. Thank you so much
for having me. You are welcome. Aren't y'all like feeling
(43:45):
like you can make it? Aren't you feeling like tempted
to go book a therapist? Aren't you tempted to see
what therapy is about. Yeah, I'm telling you go go
and guess what, just because if you don't find it
the first go round, keep looking. I'm telling you I'm here.
(44:09):
I hear a few testimonies per year, Saint Michelle, I
had to go to like two, but I found my one.
I found my therapist, So I encourage you. There is
a song called Fear Is Not It's like you're instead
of saying hello to Piece when you wake up in
the morning, it's like anxiety is waiting for you at
(44:30):
the door. Right. This song says hello Piece, Hello Joy,
Hello Love, Hello Strength, hello, Hope. It's a new horizon.
It says, fear is not my future, Sickness is not
my story, heartbreak is not my home. Death is not
the end. But you are What is that? You are? Hope, love, life, protection, success,
(45:02):
all things God. Yes, So that's what I'm gonna leave
you with. Please let me know how you feel about
this episode. Send me some love in the DMS. I
like y'all that. Send me some love and interact with
me and let me know that these episodes have been
blessing you. All right, take care. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey.
(45:35):
If you live in Atlanta or you're like, you know what,
I think. I just want to catch a flight, not feelings,
you know. I think I want to take a road
trip to be in Atlanta on April twenty second for
the first Black Effect Podcast Festival. All right, it's gonna
be live podcasts from your favorite shows. I'm excited about
(45:58):
the live podcast Fassible because it's going to be the
first one, so I know it's gonna be amazing, And
I'm so glad that Charlotte Mane chose to have it
home where I live. I don't know if he did
it for me, but I'm just gonna put it out there.
He did it because of me. Okay, so listen, come
and check me out, Come check me out. I'm gonna
(46:20):
be with the girls from Reasonably Shady. There's so many more.
We're gonna rock it out. Okay. Tickets are available at
black affect dot com. Get your tickets today at black
affect dot com. All right, I want to see you
there because if I don't, I'm gonna be mad and
then I'll have to go get therapy. All right, So
(46:42):
just come see your girl. Checking In with Michelle Williams
is a production of iHeartRadio and The Black Effect. For
more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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