October 9, 2024 • 35 mins
While authorities decided how to proceed, Elián stayed in Little Havana with his Miami relatives, including with his older cousin turned mother figure, Marisleysis. The Cuban American community in Miami rallied around the family, arguing that Elián would only be free in the U.S., and that sending him back to Cuba was sentencing him to a life under the Communist regime.
This idea was fueled by traditional exile ideology, a set of beliefs informed by the Cuban American experience. Peniley explores how the staunch ideology, often informed by trauma, animated Elián' s story. While in Cuba, the ideology of the revolution also colored Elián's journey. Peniley reflects on what it has been like for her to experience Cuba and Miami — two places with very strong belief systems. And she revisits how the INS finally decided who Elián should stay with.
This season's cover art by Ranfis Suárez Ramos.
Thanks to These Archival Sources:
Lynn and Louis Wolfson II Florida Moving Image Archives
Original Material Appeared In:
CNN's "Elián: The Remarkable Story of A Cuban Boy's Journey to America"
C-SPAN
Gabriel Iglesias' "How To Tell Latinos Apart"
Martí Noticias
Sony Pictures' "3:10 To Yuma"
YouTube/dvjmindsnare
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Producer Tasha san Novala and I are driving around Greater
Miami in bumper to bumper traffic, weaving through a maze
of flashy billboards and Spanish language advertisements, getting lost. I
don't think this is the right thing. Oh it's hot
(00:22):
and humid. To make it through the long we put
in days together in Miami, Pasha and I have a
go to Patelitoscortellitos.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Okay, here are the pasilitos and I'm having pastelava.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Guava and cheese filled puff pastries perfectly golden and warm
as staple that says here Versailles, Cuban.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Seeing the world's most famous Cuban restaurant.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Today, we are stopping at Laventanita at Cafe Versailles on
La Kayocho. This is a historic gathering point Cubans in Miami.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Okay, cafe in Mamma.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Fiver to seem past.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
This is the kind of stuff that makes Miami feel
so familiar to me. The food, the flora.
Speaker 4 (01:31):
It's flambo.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Miami, and it's Flamboyan. It's in late spring. Giant trees
with blooming red flowers, just like the ones that blooming Cuba.
My mom and dad. Most of my family lives here
in Miamilora. I get why so many Cubans settled in Miami.
(01:57):
On paper, it would be the perfect city for me,
But in reality, there is something I have learned about Miami,
something my dad recently reminded me of Miami.
Speaker 5 (02:09):
They say the banning consumed.
Speaker 6 (02:11):
I get all the.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Politic Miami makes you realize that everything is about politics,
which honestly reminds me of one of the reasons living
in Cuba can be so hard, because everything there is
also political. In a way, the Alianzaga tea is out
something that's true of Cubans as a people on and
(02:33):
off the island. We are one people with one specific
fissure Colamic Medius in Crassia. We're very stubborn and hard
lined and have strongly held opinions about everything. If you
see two Cubans debating something, you will probably see us
screaming at each other, and the topic really doesn't matter.
(02:55):
We are not fighting. We don't even consider it rude.
It's just how we are. You have probably heard jokes
about it. Mexican American comedian Gabili Lsias joked about his
experience at like Aretta one of my favorite human restaurants
in Miami, and.
Speaker 7 (03:15):
Here comes the waiter, and the waiter's coming over and
he gets in my face and he's like to care.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
It was.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
All the stereotypes aside. We're just very passionate people. We
are passionate about dancing, composing, great music, loving and of
course politics. And when it came to Elian, each side
of the Florida Straits had its own deeply rooted beliefs
(03:47):
and there would be no compromising. When I started reporting
for this podcast, my dad told me I was gonna
get in trouble. I didn't.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
And Miami because it is a rough topic, he says.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
And after so many years, people still feel really passionately
about it. And pennileraes and this is chest Peace. Delian
Gonzalez Story a production of Utuda Studios in partnership with
Iheart's Michael Tura podcast Network.
Speaker 8 (04:41):
I want what's best for him and what he wants,
you know, I'm not I don't.
Speaker 5 (04:44):
Want to be gritty and I don't want to be selfish.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
That's Mary Lazy Gonzalez. Remember she's Alan's cousin in Miami.
In nineteen ninety nine, she was just twenty one years old,
and she and Elian became close while he was in
the US waiting to find out where he would end up.
Mary Lacy's spoke about caring for Alien, about showing him tenderness.
(05:12):
He was sitting there, he was about to have soup.
The first thing I said was, don't eat that. This
is her in the twenty seventeen CNN documentary Alien. She
seems to remember him lovingly. So he just looked straight
up at me and he's like, is it bad?
Speaker 9 (05:28):
And I'm like, yes, don that will get you something
better than that.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
That moment was our first connection. So she became Alien's
go too.
Speaker 5 (05:37):
She was like a mother figure to him.
Speaker 9 (05:40):
Yellowco Hill, Locot Hill lay for Mamaqi momento and.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
I always think of his cousin that fought so hard
from she was a young girl. But she was a
force to be reckoned with. Some journalists have to said
that leaders in the Quban American exiled community in Miami
influenced Mary Leesy's behavior, but many years one of the
(06:09):
Gonzales family lawyers told us it wasn't about politics. He
became mayor of Miami in two thousand and one, about
two years after a unt rescue at sea. Before agreeing
to represent them money, sat down with the family.
Speaker 6 (06:24):
I'm not going to spend the next six months of
my life fighting over federal caestra. I'm here to do
what is in the best interest of the family and
the best interest of the child. No political agenda. And
if I ever see a political agenda that were upon
for somebody's politics, I'm out. And they agreed.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Whatever was behind it, This constant media attention became Mary
Leesy's life, and it took its toll. She was even
hospitalized during the al Yan saga.
Speaker 6 (06:59):
Went through difficult times. If you remember, you know one
time we even ended up at Mercy Hospital with her.
And you gotta understand, this is as stressful as an
event as you could probably be a part of.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
But Mary Lesy's had become a symbol. She was sacrificing
herself for a lean to raise him and what she
believed was freedom. That was a clear message, let's not
make this a political thing.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Let's make it like everybody else that comes to this
country for freedom.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
We tried reaching out to Mary Lecy's directly and indirectly.
I even wrote her a handwritten letter.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Okay, I'm now in the past office. Hopefully she will
receive it and then we will know if she's willing
to talk to us.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
But we did in her back money confirmed that she
has stopped speaking to the media.
Speaker 6 (07:58):
And I think she was already you know, sweet and vulnerable,
and I think all that really just took a toll
on her. You know, after a while it was just like,
let's say, I don't want to talk about this anymore.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
And looking back on the footage of her so young
crying on national television, I can't understand why she must
have felt enormous pressure. So we respect Mary Lacy's decision
not to talk about what was likely one of the
most painful eras of her life. We don't know whether
Cuban American community leaders coached her or not. What we
(08:32):
do know is that for the exile community, Lian's custody
case had higher stakes beyond the boy. This case was
also a power struggle between two ideological camps, those who
stood with del Castro and those who stood against him,
and defending the belief system of the very passionate Cuban
(08:53):
exiled community seemed to fall on the Gonzales family. On
Mary Lacy's. On top of that, the whole family was
also navigated in a complicated legal custody case.
Speaker 10 (09:05):
One of the misconceptions that was surprisingly widespread in saga
of this case is the idea that they ever had custody.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
That's Bernie Permotter, law professor at the University of Miami.
He told us that the Gonzales family in Miami, including
Mary Lacy's, had Alian in their temporary care, not in
legal custody, to try to keep Elian in the US.
Elian's great uncle, Lasaro, had filed three asylum applications for
(09:37):
Elan well, one was technically filed by six year old
Elian himself under the guidance of his Miami relatives.
Speaker 7 (09:51):
I believe that the people involved in this situation care
about the little boy and want to do what's right
by him.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
That's Janet Reno, Attorney General and head of that Department
of Justice. Renal happened to be a Miami native. She
understood this was a difficult case for Miami Cubans. She
oversaw an investigation into the case by the Immigration Naturalization Service.
Speaker 9 (10:18):
The ions Irons met twice with the father in Cuba
and separately with the great uncle and the lawyers in Miami.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
That's Ions Commissioner Doris Meisner. On January fifth, two thousand.
Speaker 9 (10:35):
After careful evaluation of the relevant facts, IRONS has determined
that mister Juan Gonzalez of Cuba has the sole legal
authority to speak on behalf of his son, Elion. Regarding
Elion's immigration status in the United States. We have determined
(10:59):
that Elion should be reunited with his father, mister Juan Gonzales.
Speaker 11 (11:11):
Or d me ask you about your reaction.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
They're only letting the dad decide what's best for the kid.
Without his dad and not having the freedom to get
an airplane come here to support his show when he
most really needed him. I was there and so was
my family. To Miami Cubans, the Ionis decision felt like
a bit trial because for ones, Washington agreed with Havana
(11:40):
and if there is one thing you absolutely cannot do
in Miami, it's side with the er castro.
Speaker 8 (12:17):
Miami is a very insular place as an incubator for ideology.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
This is Guillermo Grenier, sociologists at Florida International University with
an expertise on Cuba and Cuban Miami. Remember I told
you at the beginning of the episode that in Miami
so much revolves around politics. Well, that's because there is
an ideology that influences the city a lot. Gillermo calls
(12:44):
it the exile ideology.
Speaker 8 (12:46):
It provades everything, It provades the education in the schools,
it provades the media, and.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
It informed why Miami Cubans felt so deeply about the lean.
Speaker 8 (12:58):
They came over. The identity was the ideology.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
So what is this traditional of Cuban American exile ideology.
Giermo talked about a few core ideas. Number one, resisting
any effort to legitimize the Cuban government. Some Cuban Americans
believed the Cuban government should be criminalized and treated as
(13:23):
a villain for its oppressive rule. Number Two, believing in
the United States.
Speaker 8 (13:30):
We were the backyard of the United States.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Remember, the Quban elite often had close business ties with
US companies that operated on the island before the revolution.
They would send their kids to a school in the US.
Speaker 8 (13:45):
The Cuban American identity in the United States initially was
established by people who felt very close to the United States.
They did not have to be taught to be pro American.
It was in their blood.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
The first wave of exiles truly believed the revolution could
not last, not under the watchful eye of Uncle Sam.
Speaker 8 (14:07):
They were fueled by the certainty that the United States
will not allow for Theel Castro to do what he did.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
So typically, early wave exiles really believed that the US
was fighting for a free Cuba through the embargo. Number three,
this avowing engagement with Cuba, including travel to the island.
Speaker 8 (14:30):
You're not for travel to Cuba. You're not for opening
up political lines of communications. You're against people that even
travel to Cuba.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
And finally number four, rejecting an immigrant identity.
Speaker 8 (14:44):
You don't want to be immigrants. You want to go
back to the other countries.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Those who embodied traditional exile ideology believe they were forced
out of their country and until they can return to Akubaire,
there are exiles in the United States. Of course, some
Cuban Americans disagree on this tenant. For example, some may
(15:07):
have lost hope in the US and the efficacy of
the embargo, seeing the longevity of the revolution as a betrayal.
So for the most part, these beliefs have evolved and
relaxed through the years, especially when it comes to travel
to the island. Cubans who came to the US later
(15:27):
in the eighties or nineties are more likely to oppose
the embargo. They have family on the island and they
don't want them to suffer. But a major tenant of
traditional exile identity was to keep some semblance of hope,
to live with the belief that next year, or next month,
or even tomorrow you could be living in a free Cuba.
(15:51):
This was especially true just after the fall of the
Soviet Union in nineteen ninety one.
Speaker 8 (15:57):
There were a lot of apocryphal mentions of for sale
signs popping up all over Hyaliyah, you know, thinking that
the next lection on Tito, we're definitely going to be
in Havana. Right.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
But by nineteen ninety nine, the year Eleana arrived in Florida,
almost a decade had passed and the Cuban Revolution had
still not been defeated.
Speaker 8 (16:18):
Elian comes, Fidel hasn't gone down. Everybody is not happy
about that. And by God, Fidel's not going to get this.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Trophy Ellan as a trophy. We heard this quite a
bit in our reporting.
Speaker 8 (16:32):
So anything the Cuban government wants it should not get.
And in this case, it was Ellian.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
If he went back to Cuba, Elean will be a
price for Fidel and for his revolution. But if he
stayed in Miami, he would also be a trophy, a
beacon of the American dream for Cuban Americans. Gillermo explains
that exile ideology was essential to how most Miami Cubans
(16:58):
felt about Elean. He wasn't just a little boy who
magically survived the Florida Straits. He was the little boy
who had the potential to deliver a crushing blow to
Fidel gastro.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
So.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Miami Cubans kept banding together outside of the Little Havana Home.
Speaker 5 (17:23):
People began going there period. You know, they wanted to
express the solidarity with the family.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
This is Ramonzael Sanchez. He is a well known activist
in the exile community and was one of the most
visible protestors outside the Little Havana House. He was there
nearly every night, driving straight from his work to the
house and back again.
Speaker 5 (17:49):
I wanted always for the young consalate situation to be
resolved between the families, between the relatives in Cuba and
the relatives in the United States, not by the government.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
He even helped lead major street protests after the ins
decision that Elian should go back to his father.
Speaker 5 (18:13):
I already no fortunes.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
I want to tell you about Roman's life because I
think it suggests why faults outside of Elian's house were
so passionate. Ramon arrived in Miami during one of the
early waves of Cuban migration on a US sponsored freedom flight.
Speaker 5 (18:34):
I've been in exiled since nineteen sixty seven, since I
was twenty years old.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
He is an exiled through and through. His life has
been all about fighting against the revolution.
Speaker 5 (18:47):
I began a struggle for democracy when I was fifteen
years old. I am now sixty nine.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Years old, and this fight was not all is peaceful.
Speaker 5 (19:02):
I got involved with Alpha sixty six, a legal organization
in the United States.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Under the law, Alpha sixty six is considered a right
wing paramilitary organization and paramilitary activity is a lawfl in
all fifty States. Early on it had some support from
the CIA, but eventually it was on its own, where.
Speaker 5 (19:29):
Every Cuban that came from Cuba I wanted to do
something for Cuba used to go to Alpha sixty six
the register be a member.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
This is how Ramons is it. We weren't able to
verify how Alpha sixty six recruited its members. What we
do know is that Alpha sixty six carried out attacks
against the Cuban government or those who seemed to support it.
Speaker 5 (19:51):
And there I trained on the struggle, on the guerrilla
warfare and the struggle to free Cube.
Speaker 4 (19:58):
Just at Aver from which just rushed. Not a may
allow her charge now our training the pipe, but our
pastros armies in Cube, in.
Speaker 5 (20:07):
The event that someday we could go back and free Cube.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
In fact, unlike most given Americans, Ramon never went through
the asylum process and never became a US citizen because.
Speaker 5 (20:21):
When we came here at the beginning, in our minds,
we were going to go back.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Then in the early nineteen eighties, he refused to testify
before a grand jury for a case involving an assassination
attempt against Castro, and.
Speaker 5 (20:37):
I refused to talk because of principles, a matter of conscience.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
So he went to prison. It was Ramon's time in
prison that would change him.
Speaker 5 (20:47):
And I decided that we had to go to other methods,
and that's where I embraced non violence.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
However, those first decades of exile life in Miami were
tense and sometimes bloody, not just for Ramon but for
much of the exile community. Exiles would police each other
for not being anti Castro enough. In nineteen seventy five,
one exile was killed by other exiles simply for saying
(21:19):
he would go back to Cuba to vote if Fidel
Castro opened democratic elections. With this history, it would be
easy to conclude that exile ideology was the only reason
why Cuban Americans wanted Elean to stay in the US.
(21:40):
But I think it's more layered than that. The ideology
is informed by very real experiences and trauma, and Cuban
Americans genuinely believed Elean would be safer and have a
better life in Layoma.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Could you describe what is Layoma?
Speaker 5 (22:04):
So Juma refers to the United.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
States Juma, It's a very common Cuban term. No one
is quite sure where the term came from, but most
people think it comes from the nineteen fifty seven Cowboy
classic three ten to Yuma, as in Yuma Arizona. The
film is screened extensively throughout Cuba. In the nineteen seventies.
Speaker 11 (22:30):
Sula Man scared but brave, would run an out locked
gruntlet to put a prisoner around the gallows bound train
to Yuma.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Another theory is that Juma is simply an abbreviated Cubanism
for US man Juma.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
So in Cuba, if you said mekehery Palayoma, what does that.
Speaker 5 (22:49):
Mean, You're saying you want to come to the United States.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Mikero i Palayoma. It's what all Cuban Americans had done.
They had left Cuba to come and stay in Layoma. Yeah,
that's why they assumed Elian also wanted to stay in
the US. But soon Elian himself would say something very controversial,
and his words would deepen the ideological divide. We are
(23:39):
in a neighborhood called Little Havana. While reporting in Miami,
Tasha and I stopped at the house where Alien stayed
with his relatives. It's utly quiet.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Imagine the same place that now looks so peaceful and quiet,
surrounded by people all the time. LeAnn will come to
the front yard to play around when everybody is screaming
and happy and try to touch him. So it's a
(24:23):
big contrast to see this house in a regular day,
twenty five years after everything happened with a lean.
Speaker 9 (24:34):
Yeah, it's now a career going the circus that people
have described.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
If you see the pictures of those days and the videos,
this seems like a really tiny street, and it's not tiny.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
It's actually pretty big. Now.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
I realized it looked tiny because it was so packed.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
With people, people who wanted the liand to stay in
the US. After initial anger over the ions decision, on
January fifth, the Miami relatives regrouped they were going to
fight the decision.
Speaker 10 (25:21):
A bunch of lawyers rose up and agreed to represent
the family in filing a petition for temporary legal custody
of Elian in a state court.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Law professor Berni Permoter. Again, the Miami family wanted to
resolve things through family court and not through immigration and
the federal government. On January tenth, a judge in Florida
Family Court granted lazarro Anzalez, Elian's great uncle, temporary legal
(25:54):
custody of Elian, pending a full hearing in marsh.
Speaker 10 (25:58):
And that he, as I understand it, and as I recalled,
never occurred.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Shortly after the ruling, the judge was reported to have
a major conflict of interest just turning the legal case
got big headlines, but something overshadowed it. The very next day,
while we stood outside the house during our reporting trip,
Kasha and I remembered what happened.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
This place is not that far from the Miami Airport,
so you have a lot of planes here, and one day,
in the middle of this saga, one of those planes
were crossing in front of the house. And this is
the moment when Alan says one of the most controversial.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Things, yokyoke, I want to be returned to Cuba. Well,
at least that's what the media initially reported Elean said,
but many Miami Cubans say they heard the opposite Pakua,
(27:10):
I don't want to be returned to Cuba. It sounds
the same, right, depending on who you were on, what
side you were on, you hear something different, But it
was the exact same recording, the exact same words spoken
(27:33):
by a little boy. This is what it's like to
be Cuban, to be of the same people, divided by ideology.
You can hear the same thing, but here two completely
different messages. The play video, as it was known, really
(27:59):
hit an nerve within the exile community. In the audio,
you can even hear onlookers responding to Alien's words was
it possible that Elian actually wanted to go back to Cuba?
After all, he was being showered with many gifts in Miami.
(28:20):
He seemed to have everything he could ever need. He
even had a new puppy named Dolphin.
Speaker 11 (28:29):
Can you give us a sense of timing and in
terms of when you would like to see this result,
particularly because the boy's going to school, he's making friends,
get the dogs, puppies, got relatives.
Speaker 7 (28:41):
Whatever happens with respect to the little boy, it should
be done soon so that he can get on with
his life with the puppy.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
This is our Department of Justice briefing just after the
playing controversy. Attorney General Reno also made an important annount.
Speaker 7 (29:01):
I think the process that was used by Ions is
a fair good process.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
She agreed with the Ions decision to reunite Alien with
his father.
Speaker 7 (29:14):
We are just trying to make sure that people understand
that what is an issue is a father who wants
his son home.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
This is what was an issue for the United States
government and for the law. But within the framework of
exile ideology, the issue was not just about a father
and a son. The issue, every issue in Miami was
about opposing Castro and reaffirming life in Alexilion. That was
(29:46):
the through line, the tension underlying everything. The alien case
would only magnify that, bringing it to the foreground and
leaving zero room for nuance. If you didn't agree that
Elient shal stay in La Yuma full stop, you were
on the wrong side. As a journalist, I see nuance
(30:09):
in every story. I have a natural knack for asking
difficult questions, for making room for healthy skepticism. That got
me into travel in Cuba in two thousand and six,
when I first started journalism school there. One time in
class I mentioned that cooking oil was very expensive in
(30:30):
the stores and that we should find out why. From
then on, I was prevented from doing any kind of
political reporting. Instead, I was assigned to cover only cultural
stuff like Varoque music concerts and in Miami. Well, I
know there are also certain things I shouldn't say, like
(30:53):
that the Cuban Revolution gave the masses a good education
and created reforms to l beta for Cuban rights. Don't
get me wrong, I'm not comparing the true censorship of
a dictatorship with the social self policing that happens in
the United States. I know there is a big difference.
I have experienced that myself. I'm saying that there is
(31:17):
a kind of censorship on both sides of the Florida Straits,
for not supporting Catrimo on one side, and for not
denouncing it enough on the other, for not going to
live it in Alian protest in Cuba and for not
showing up to Alian's house in Miami. For speaking my
mind in Cuba and for speaking my mind in Miami.
(31:40):
I don't want to be told what I can and
cannot say, no matter where I am, And neither did
little Elan, a boy with a mind of his own,
his own thoughts, ideas, desires. He was not stuck on
(32:02):
an ideology or a belief system. He saw a plane
and said what he felt in that moment of childhood.
Did this fleeting moment represent his true complete feelings. I
don't know. Maybe no one really knew, because even an
(32:25):
innocent moment was interpreted through deeply health beliefs. Maybe each
side just heard what they wanted to hear, what fit
with their ideology, for better or worse. In the next
(32:49):
episode of Chess, Peace, Ellen's father is said to come
to the United States to take his son back to Cuba,
but to his frustration, some Americans questioned his free will.
Speaker 12 (33:00):
If you are living in Cuba, you're living in a
totalitarian regime, or your movements are watched, your actions are controlled,
and you simply are not at liberty to advocate for
your child's life and a democratic society where life would
have been very.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Different jess Peace. The Lan Gonzalez Story is a production
of Utuda Studios in partnership with Iheartsmichael Tura Podcast Network.
This show is written and reported by me Pennileea Medz
with Maria Garcia, Nicole Rothwell, and Tasha Sandowail. Our editor
(33:41):
is Maria Garcia, Additional editing by Marlon bishop Or. Senior
producer is Nicole Rothwell. Our associate producers are Tasha Sandoval
and Elisabeth Loental Talks sound designed by Jacob Rossetti with
help from Stephanie Lebon and Or intern is Evelin Fajardo Albarez.
(34:03):
Our senior production manager is Jessica Elis, with production support
from Nancy Trujillo and Francis Poon. Mixing by Stephanie Levo,
Julia Caruso and j J. Carubin. Fat checking by Media Bautista.
Scoring and musical creation by Jaco Rosati and Stephanie Levo
and credits music from Los Aceros or Executive producers are
(34:27):
Marlon Bishop and Maria Garcia. Legal review by Neil Rossini.
Huturo Media was founded by Mariainojosa. For more podcasts, listen
to the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows a Penileira Mirez see you in
the next episode, Novemo Henesci and episode
Speaker 8 (35:02):
Futuro
Producer Tasha san Novala and I are driving around Greater
Miami in bumper to bumper traffic, weaving through a maze
of flashy billboards and Spanish language advertisements, getting lost. I
don't think this is the right thing. Oh it's hot
(00:22):
and humid. To make it through the long we put
in days together in Miami, Pasha and I have a
go to Patelitoscortellitos.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Okay, here are the pasilitos and I'm having pastelava.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Guava and cheese filled puff pastries perfectly golden and warm
as staple that says here Versailles, Cuban.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Seeing the world's most famous Cuban restaurant.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Today, we are stopping at Laventanita at Cafe Versailles on
La Kayocho. This is a historic gathering point Cubans in Miami.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Okay, cafe in Mamma.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Fiver to seem past.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
This is the kind of stuff that makes Miami feel
so familiar to me. The food, the flora.
Speaker 4 (01:31):
It's flambo.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Miami, and it's Flamboyan. It's in late spring. Giant trees
with blooming red flowers, just like the ones that blooming Cuba.
My mom and dad. Most of my family lives here
in Miamilora. I get why so many Cubans settled in Miami.
(01:57):
On paper, it would be the perfect city for me,
But in reality, there is something I have learned about Miami,
something my dad recently reminded me of Miami.
Speaker 5 (02:09):
They say the banning consumed.
Speaker 6 (02:11):
I get all the.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Politic Miami makes you realize that everything is about politics,
which honestly reminds me of one of the reasons living
in Cuba can be so hard, because everything there is
also political. In a way, the Alianzaga tea is out
something that's true of Cubans as a people on and
(02:33):
off the island. We are one people with one specific
fissure Colamic Medius in Crassia. We're very stubborn and hard
lined and have strongly held opinions about everything. If you
see two Cubans debating something, you will probably see us
screaming at each other, and the topic really doesn't matter.
(02:55):
We are not fighting. We don't even consider it rude.
It's just how we are. You have probably heard jokes
about it. Mexican American comedian Gabili Lsias joked about his
experience at like Aretta one of my favorite human restaurants
in Miami, and.
Speaker 7 (03:15):
Here comes the waiter, and the waiter's coming over and
he gets in my face and he's like to care.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
It was.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
All the stereotypes aside. We're just very passionate people. We
are passionate about dancing, composing, great music, loving and of
course politics. And when it came to Elian, each side
of the Florida Straits had its own deeply rooted beliefs
(03:47):
and there would be no compromising. When I started reporting
for this podcast, my dad told me I was gonna
get in trouble. I didn't.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
And Miami because it is a rough topic, he says.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
And after so many years, people still feel really passionately
about it. And pennileraes and this is chest Peace. Delian
Gonzalez Story a production of Utuda Studios in partnership with
Iheart's Michael Tura podcast Network.
Speaker 8 (04:41):
I want what's best for him and what he wants,
you know, I'm not I don't.
Speaker 5 (04:44):
Want to be gritty and I don't want to be selfish.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
That's Mary Lazy Gonzalez. Remember she's Alan's cousin in Miami.
In nineteen ninety nine, she was just twenty one years old,
and she and Elian became close while he was in
the US waiting to find out where he would end up.
Mary Lacy's spoke about caring for Alien, about showing him tenderness.
(05:12):
He was sitting there, he was about to have soup.
The first thing I said was, don't eat that. This
is her in the twenty seventeen CNN documentary Alien. She
seems to remember him lovingly. So he just looked straight
up at me and he's like, is it bad?
Speaker 9 (05:28):
And I'm like, yes, don that will get you something
better than that.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
That moment was our first connection. So she became Alien's
go too.
Speaker 5 (05:37):
She was like a mother figure to him.
Speaker 9 (05:40):
Yellowco Hill, Locot Hill lay for Mamaqi momento and.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
I always think of his cousin that fought so hard
from she was a young girl. But she was a
force to be reckoned with. Some journalists have to said
that leaders in the Quban American exiled community in Miami
influenced Mary Leesy's behavior, but many years one of the
(06:09):
Gonzales family lawyers told us it wasn't about politics. He
became mayor of Miami in two thousand and one, about
two years after a unt rescue at sea. Before agreeing
to represent them money, sat down with the family.
Speaker 6 (06:24):
I'm not going to spend the next six months of
my life fighting over federal caestra. I'm here to do
what is in the best interest of the family and
the best interest of the child. No political agenda. And
if I ever see a political agenda that were upon
for somebody's politics, I'm out. And they agreed.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Whatever was behind it, This constant media attention became Mary
Leesy's life, and it took its toll. She was even
hospitalized during the al Yan saga.
Speaker 6 (06:59):
Went through difficult times. If you remember, you know one
time we even ended up at Mercy Hospital with her.
And you gotta understand, this is as stressful as an
event as you could probably be a part of.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
But Mary Lesy's had become a symbol. She was sacrificing
herself for a lean to raise him and what she
believed was freedom. That was a clear message, let's not
make this a political thing.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Let's make it like everybody else that comes to this
country for freedom.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
We tried reaching out to Mary Lecy's directly and indirectly.
I even wrote her a handwritten letter.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Okay, I'm now in the past office. Hopefully she will
receive it and then we will know if she's willing
to talk to us.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
But we did in her back money confirmed that she
has stopped speaking to the media.
Speaker 6 (07:58):
And I think she was already you know, sweet and vulnerable,
and I think all that really just took a toll
on her. You know, after a while it was just like,
let's say, I don't want to talk about this anymore.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
And looking back on the footage of her so young
crying on national television, I can't understand why she must
have felt enormous pressure. So we respect Mary Lacy's decision
not to talk about what was likely one of the
most painful eras of her life. We don't know whether
Cuban American community leaders coached her or not. What we
(08:32):
do know is that for the exile community, Lian's custody
case had higher stakes beyond the boy. This case was
also a power struggle between two ideological camps, those who
stood with del Castro and those who stood against him,
and defending the belief system of the very passionate Cuban
(08:53):
exiled community seemed to fall on the Gonzales family. On
Mary Lacy's. On top of that, the whole family was
also navigated in a complicated legal custody case.
Speaker 10 (09:05):
One of the misconceptions that was surprisingly widespread in saga
of this case is the idea that they ever had custody.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
That's Bernie Permotter, law professor at the University of Miami.
He told us that the Gonzales family in Miami, including
Mary Lacy's, had Alian in their temporary care, not in
legal custody, to try to keep Elian in the US.
Elian's great uncle, Lasaro, had filed three asylum applications for
(09:37):
Elan well, one was technically filed by six year old
Elian himself under the guidance of his Miami relatives.
Speaker 7 (09:51):
I believe that the people involved in this situation care
about the little boy and want to do what's right
by him.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
That's Janet Reno, Attorney General and head of that Department
of Justice. Renal happened to be a Miami native. She
understood this was a difficult case for Miami Cubans. She
oversaw an investigation into the case by the Immigration Naturalization Service.
Speaker 9 (10:18):
The ions Irons met twice with the father in Cuba
and separately with the great uncle and the lawyers in Miami.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
That's Ions Commissioner Doris Meisner. On January fifth, two thousand.
Speaker 9 (10:35):
After careful evaluation of the relevant facts, IRONS has determined
that mister Juan Gonzalez of Cuba has the sole legal
authority to speak on behalf of his son, Elion. Regarding
Elion's immigration status in the United States. We have determined
(10:59):
that Elion should be reunited with his father, mister Juan Gonzales.
Speaker 11 (11:11):
Or d me ask you about your reaction.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
They're only letting the dad decide what's best for the kid.
Without his dad and not having the freedom to get
an airplane come here to support his show when he
most really needed him. I was there and so was
my family. To Miami Cubans, the Ionis decision felt like
a bit trial because for ones, Washington agreed with Havana
(11:40):
and if there is one thing you absolutely cannot do
in Miami, it's side with the er castro.
Speaker 8 (12:17):
Miami is a very insular place as an incubator for ideology.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
This is Guillermo Grenier, sociologists at Florida International University with
an expertise on Cuba and Cuban Miami. Remember I told
you at the beginning of the episode that in Miami
so much revolves around politics. Well, that's because there is
an ideology that influences the city a lot. Gillermo calls
(12:44):
it the exile ideology.
Speaker 8 (12:46):
It provades everything, It provades the education in the schools,
it provades the media, and.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
It informed why Miami Cubans felt so deeply about the lean.
Speaker 8 (12:58):
They came over. The identity was the ideology.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
So what is this traditional of Cuban American exile ideology.
Giermo talked about a few core ideas. Number one, resisting
any effort to legitimize the Cuban government. Some Cuban Americans
believed the Cuban government should be criminalized and treated as
(13:23):
a villain for its oppressive rule. Number Two, believing in
the United States.
Speaker 8 (13:30):
We were the backyard of the United States.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Remember, the Quban elite often had close business ties with
US companies that operated on the island before the revolution.
They would send their kids to a school in the US.
Speaker 8 (13:45):
The Cuban American identity in the United States initially was
established by people who felt very close to the United States.
They did not have to be taught to be pro American.
It was in their blood.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
The first wave of exiles truly believed the revolution could
not last, not under the watchful eye of Uncle Sam.
Speaker 8 (14:07):
They were fueled by the certainty that the United States
will not allow for Theel Castro to do what he did.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
So typically, early wave exiles really believed that the US
was fighting for a free Cuba through the embargo. Number three,
this avowing engagement with Cuba, including travel to the island.
Speaker 8 (14:30):
You're not for travel to Cuba. You're not for opening
up political lines of communications. You're against people that even
travel to Cuba.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
And finally number four, rejecting an immigrant identity.
Speaker 8 (14:44):
You don't want to be immigrants. You want to go
back to the other countries.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Those who embodied traditional exile ideology believe they were forced
out of their country and until they can return to Akubaire,
there are exiles in the United States. Of course, some
Cuban Americans disagree on this tenant. For example, some may
(15:07):
have lost hope in the US and the efficacy of
the embargo, seeing the longevity of the revolution as a betrayal.
So for the most part, these beliefs have evolved and
relaxed through the years, especially when it comes to travel
to the island. Cubans who came to the US later
(15:27):
in the eighties or nineties are more likely to oppose
the embargo. They have family on the island and they
don't want them to suffer. But a major tenant of
traditional exile identity was to keep some semblance of hope,
to live with the belief that next year, or next month,
or even tomorrow you could be living in a free Cuba.
(15:51):
This was especially true just after the fall of the
Soviet Union in nineteen ninety one.
Speaker 8 (15:57):
There were a lot of apocryphal mentions of for sale
signs popping up all over Hyaliyah, you know, thinking that
the next lection on Tito, we're definitely going to be
in Havana. Right.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
But by nineteen ninety nine, the year Eleana arrived in Florida,
almost a decade had passed and the Cuban Revolution had
still not been defeated.
Speaker 8 (16:18):
Elian comes, Fidel hasn't gone down. Everybody is not happy
about that. And by God, Fidel's not going to get this.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Trophy Ellan as a trophy. We heard this quite a
bit in our reporting.
Speaker 8 (16:32):
So anything the Cuban government wants it should not get.
And in this case, it was Ellian.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
If he went back to Cuba, Elean will be a
price for Fidel and for his revolution. But if he
stayed in Miami, he would also be a trophy, a
beacon of the American dream for Cuban Americans. Gillermo explains
that exile ideology was essential to how most Miami Cubans
(16:58):
felt about Elean. He wasn't just a little boy who
magically survived the Florida Straits. He was the little boy
who had the potential to deliver a crushing blow to
Fidel gastro.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
So.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Miami Cubans kept banding together outside of the Little Havana Home.
Speaker 5 (17:23):
People began going there period. You know, they wanted to
express the solidarity with the family.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
This is Ramonzael Sanchez. He is a well known activist
in the exile community and was one of the most
visible protestors outside the Little Havana House. He was there
nearly every night, driving straight from his work to the
house and back again.
Speaker 5 (17:49):
I wanted always for the young consalate situation to be
resolved between the families, between the relatives in Cuba and
the relatives in the United States, not by the government.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
He even helped lead major street protests after the ins
decision that Elian should go back to his father.
Speaker 5 (18:13):
I already no fortunes.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
I want to tell you about Roman's life because I
think it suggests why faults outside of Elian's house were
so passionate. Ramon arrived in Miami during one of the
early waves of Cuban migration on a US sponsored freedom flight.
Speaker 5 (18:34):
I've been in exiled since nineteen sixty seven, since I
was twenty years old.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
He is an exiled through and through. His life has
been all about fighting against the revolution.
Speaker 5 (18:47):
I began a struggle for democracy when I was fifteen
years old. I am now sixty nine.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Years old, and this fight was not all is peaceful.
Speaker 5 (19:02):
I got involved with Alpha sixty six, a legal organization
in the United States.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Under the law, Alpha sixty six is considered a right
wing paramilitary organization and paramilitary activity is a lawfl in
all fifty States. Early on it had some support from
the CIA, but eventually it was on its own, where.
Speaker 5 (19:29):
Every Cuban that came from Cuba I wanted to do
something for Cuba used to go to Alpha sixty six
the register be a member.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
This is how Ramons is it. We weren't able to
verify how Alpha sixty six recruited its members. What we
do know is that Alpha sixty six carried out attacks
against the Cuban government or those who seemed to support it.
Speaker 5 (19:51):
And there I trained on the struggle, on the guerrilla
warfare and the struggle to free Cube.
Speaker 4 (19:58):
Just at Aver from which just rushed. Not a may
allow her charge now our training the pipe, but our
pastros armies in Cube, in.
Speaker 5 (20:07):
The event that someday we could go back and free Cube.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
In fact, unlike most given Americans, Ramon never went through
the asylum process and never became a US citizen because.
Speaker 5 (20:21):
When we came here at the beginning, in our minds,
we were going to go back.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Then in the early nineteen eighties, he refused to testify
before a grand jury for a case involving an assassination
attempt against Castro, and.
Speaker 5 (20:37):
I refused to talk because of principles, a matter of conscience.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
So he went to prison. It was Ramon's time in
prison that would change him.
Speaker 5 (20:47):
And I decided that we had to go to other methods,
and that's where I embraced non violence.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
However, those first decades of exile life in Miami were
tense and sometimes bloody, not just for Ramon but for
much of the exile community. Exiles would police each other
for not being anti Castro enough. In nineteen seventy five,
one exile was killed by other exiles simply for saying
(21:19):
he would go back to Cuba to vote if Fidel
Castro opened democratic elections. With this history, it would be
easy to conclude that exile ideology was the only reason
why Cuban Americans wanted Elean to stay in the US.
(21:40):
But I think it's more layered than that. The ideology
is informed by very real experiences and trauma, and Cuban
Americans genuinely believed Elean would be safer and have a
better life in Layoma.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Could you describe what is Layoma?
Speaker 5 (22:04):
So Juma refers to the United.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
States Juma, It's a very common Cuban term. No one
is quite sure where the term came from, but most
people think it comes from the nineteen fifty seven Cowboy
classic three ten to Yuma, as in Yuma Arizona. The
film is screened extensively throughout Cuba. In the nineteen seventies.
Speaker 11 (22:30):
Sula Man scared but brave, would run an out locked
gruntlet to put a prisoner around the gallows bound train
to Yuma.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Another theory is that Juma is simply an abbreviated Cubanism
for US man Juma.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
So in Cuba, if you said mekehery Palayoma, what does that.
Speaker 5 (22:49):
Mean, You're saying you want to come to the United States.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Mikero i Palayoma. It's what all Cuban Americans had done.
They had left Cuba to come and stay in Layoma. Yeah,
that's why they assumed Elian also wanted to stay in
the US. But soon Elian himself would say something very controversial,
and his words would deepen the ideological divide. We are
(23:39):
in a neighborhood called Little Havana. While reporting in Miami,
Tasha and I stopped at the house where Alien stayed
with his relatives. It's utly quiet.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Imagine the same place that now looks so peaceful and quiet,
surrounded by people all the time. LeAnn will come to
the front yard to play around when everybody is screaming
and happy and try to touch him. So it's a
(24:23):
big contrast to see this house in a regular day,
twenty five years after everything happened with a lean.
Speaker 9 (24:34):
Yeah, it's now a career going the circus that people
have described.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
If you see the pictures of those days and the videos,
this seems like a really tiny street, and it's not tiny.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
It's actually pretty big. Now.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
I realized it looked tiny because it was so packed.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
With people, people who wanted the liand to stay in
the US. After initial anger over the ions decision, on
January fifth, the Miami relatives regrouped they were going to
fight the decision.
Speaker 10 (25:21):
A bunch of lawyers rose up and agreed to represent
the family in filing a petition for temporary legal custody
of Elian in a state court.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Law professor Berni Permoter. Again, the Miami family wanted to
resolve things through family court and not through immigration and
the federal government. On January tenth, a judge in Florida
Family Court granted lazarro Anzalez, Elian's great uncle, temporary legal
(25:54):
custody of Elian, pending a full hearing in marsh.
Speaker 10 (25:58):
And that he, as I understand it, and as I recalled,
never occurred.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Shortly after the ruling, the judge was reported to have
a major conflict of interest just turning the legal case
got big headlines, but something overshadowed it. The very next day,
while we stood outside the house during our reporting trip,
Kasha and I remembered what happened.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
This place is not that far from the Miami Airport,
so you have a lot of planes here, and one day,
in the middle of this saga, one of those planes
were crossing in front of the house. And this is
the moment when Alan says one of the most controversial.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Things, yokyoke, I want to be returned to Cuba. Well,
at least that's what the media initially reported Elean said,
but many Miami Cubans say they heard the opposite Pakua,
(27:10):
I don't want to be returned to Cuba. It sounds
the same, right, depending on who you were on, what
side you were on, you hear something different, But it
was the exact same recording, the exact same words spoken
(27:33):
by a little boy. This is what it's like to
be Cuban, to be of the same people, divided by ideology.
You can hear the same thing, but here two completely
different messages. The play video, as it was known, really
(27:59):
hit an nerve within the exile community. In the audio,
you can even hear onlookers responding to Alien's words was
it possible that Elian actually wanted to go back to Cuba?
After all, he was being showered with many gifts in Miami.
(28:20):
He seemed to have everything he could ever need. He
even had a new puppy named Dolphin.
Speaker 11 (28:29):
Can you give us a sense of timing and in
terms of when you would like to see this result,
particularly because the boy's going to school, he's making friends,
get the dogs, puppies, got relatives.
Speaker 7 (28:41):
Whatever happens with respect to the little boy, it should
be done soon so that he can get on with
his life with the puppy.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
This is our Department of Justice briefing just after the
playing controversy. Attorney General Reno also made an important annount.
Speaker 7 (29:01):
I think the process that was used by Ions is
a fair good process.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
She agreed with the Ions decision to reunite Alien with
his father.
Speaker 7 (29:14):
We are just trying to make sure that people understand
that what is an issue is a father who wants
his son home.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
This is what was an issue for the United States
government and for the law. But within the framework of
exile ideology, the issue was not just about a father
and a son. The issue, every issue in Miami was
about opposing Castro and reaffirming life in Alexilion. That was
(29:46):
the through line, the tension underlying everything. The alien case
would only magnify that, bringing it to the foreground and
leaving zero room for nuance. If you didn't agree that
Elient shal stay in La Yuma full stop, you were
on the wrong side. As a journalist, I see nuance
(30:09):
in every story. I have a natural knack for asking
difficult questions, for making room for healthy skepticism. That got
me into travel in Cuba in two thousand and six,
when I first started journalism school there. One time in
class I mentioned that cooking oil was very expensive in
(30:30):
the stores and that we should find out why. From
then on, I was prevented from doing any kind of
political reporting. Instead, I was assigned to cover only cultural
stuff like Varoque music concerts and in Miami. Well, I
know there are also certain things I shouldn't say, like
(30:53):
that the Cuban Revolution gave the masses a good education
and created reforms to l beta for Cuban rights. Don't
get me wrong, I'm not comparing the true censorship of
a dictatorship with the social self policing that happens in
the United States. I know there is a big difference.
I have experienced that myself. I'm saying that there is
(31:17):
a kind of censorship on both sides of the Florida Straits,
for not supporting Catrimo on one side, and for not
denouncing it enough on the other, for not going to
live it in Alian protest in Cuba and for not
showing up to Alian's house in Miami. For speaking my
mind in Cuba and for speaking my mind in Miami.
(31:40):
I don't want to be told what I can and
cannot say, no matter where I am, And neither did
little Elan, a boy with a mind of his own,
his own thoughts, ideas, desires. He was not stuck on
(32:02):
an ideology or a belief system. He saw a plane
and said what he felt in that moment of childhood.
Did this fleeting moment represent his true complete feelings. I
don't know. Maybe no one really knew, because even an
(32:25):
innocent moment was interpreted through deeply health beliefs. Maybe each
side just heard what they wanted to hear, what fit
with their ideology, for better or worse. In the next
(32:49):
episode of Chess, Peace, Ellen's father is said to come
to the United States to take his son back to Cuba,
but to his frustration, some Americans questioned his free will.
Speaker 12 (33:00):
If you are living in Cuba, you're living in a
totalitarian regime, or your movements are watched, your actions are controlled,
and you simply are not at liberty to advocate for
your child's life and a democratic society where life would
have been very.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Different jess Peace. The Lan Gonzalez Story is a production
of Utuda Studios in partnership with Iheartsmichael Tura Podcast Network.
This show is written and reported by me Pennileea Medz
with Maria Garcia, Nicole Rothwell, and Tasha Sandowail. Our editor
(33:41):
is Maria Garcia, Additional editing by Marlon bishop Or. Senior
producer is Nicole Rothwell. Our associate producers are Tasha Sandoval
and Elisabeth Loental Talks sound designed by Jacob Rossetti with
help from Stephanie Lebon and Or intern is Evelin Fajardo Albarez.
(34:03):
Our senior production manager is Jessica Elis, with production support
from Nancy Trujillo and Francis Poon. Mixing by Stephanie Levo,
Julia Caruso and j J. Carubin. Fat checking by Media Bautista.
Scoring and musical creation by Jaco Rosati and Stephanie Levo
and credits music from Los Aceros or Executive producers are
(34:27):
Marlon Bishop and Maria Garcia. Legal review by Neil Rossini.
Huturo Media was founded by Mariainojosa. For more podcasts, listen
to the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows a Penileira Mirez see you in
the next episode, Novemo Henesci and episode
Speaker 8 (35:02):
Futuro
Host
Peniley Ramírez
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