May 22, 2023 • 36 mins
Do you have a narcissist in your life? This week, Chiquis welcomes clinical psychologist and author Dr. Ramani Durvasula for a fascinating conversation about all things narcissism. Dr. Ramani gets into the real definition of a narcissist, the potential causes for this type of personality and the red flags you should look out for. Dr. Ramani also shares the best ways to navigate life with a narcissist and the type of people who could be more likely to fall victim to somebody with self-centered traits.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
I feel that I was in a relationship with a
narcissist now that I know a little bit more about it,
and after we broke up, and I'm like, oh my gosh,
this kind of sounds like him.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Narcissistic people are very oriented to what's outside of them.
In fact, they've got a really uncanny ability to know
what the world likes. So charm is part of that offensive.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Are there some popular manipulation tactics that narcissists use.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
In an early phase of a romantic relationship. They're going
to engage in something called love bombing, and this can
look a lot of different ways.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
What up, y'all? Happy Monday everyone. I'm really looking forward
to today's conversation because we're going to talk about all
things narcissism. We have a lot to talk about, so
let's get into it. This is Cheeky's and Chill, all right,
(01:04):
So today we have none other than doctor Rominy. She
has a very long and impressive resume. She's a clinical
psychologist and a professor at cal State Los Angeles, an
author of several books, and she also hosts the podcast
Navigating Narcissism. Oh my goodness, doctor, how are you?
Speaker 2 (01:22):
I'm fine, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Oh my god, of course I'm excited. I'm excited to
talk to you about this topic because I feel like
it's a word that people use and just kind of
throw around quite a bit now more than ever. I
hadn't heard of this word until like literally like ten
years ago, and now I feel like I hear it everywhere.
So I'm glad that you're on and you can really
(01:45):
get down to what it really is so that we're
not just throwing it around so freely. So tell us,
let's start off with what is narcissism.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
So first of all, I do want to know highlight
your points that we do throw it around, and I
think that's become a real problem because it's a word
that has describes a lot, has a lot of power.
It also has a fair amount of stigma, so it's
important to use it right. So, narcissism is a personality style.
It's not a disorder, it's not a diagnosis. It's a
(02:16):
personality style. And this personality style is characterized by a
person that has variable empathy. They're egocentric and selfish, They're entitled, grandiose,
constantly seeking validation and admiration, They envy other people. They
often can be quite controlling, They monopolize conversations, they take
(02:39):
advantage of other people. They can be very manipulative. But really,
underneath all of that stuff I'm describing, it's really a
deep insecurity. And so their lives are sort of lived
forever in this kind of overcompensated kind of in this space.
But they're not aware of that. It's not like they say, oh, hey,
it's nice to make sure I'm insecure, so I've got
to do all this stuff feel better about myself. It's
(03:01):
not that. And if you were to ever suggest, like, hmm,
maybe you're doing this because you're insecure, they would rage
at you. It's not fair to say a narcissistic person
lacks empathy. They have again when I said variable empathy,
they know what it is. They know people like it.
It's very performative, so they know if they behave empathically
that might get them validation. They'll use it to get
(03:23):
what they want. They might use it early in a relationship,
but frankly, once they've got what they need from you
and your validation is no longer that interesting, then not
so much empathy. And if they're having a good day,
they feel safe, they feel supplied more empathy. On a
day they're having a bad day, not so much empathy.
And that jumping all around means that it's not always
(03:44):
bad with them. You can narcissistic people are incredibly charming
and charismatic and confident. So it's all this difficult stuff
and this stuff that looks good. Mix it up, and
then that's why you get this really confusing personality style.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Oh my goodness, And what made you interested in narcissists?
Speaker 2 (04:02):
It's funny the way I got into it. It was
more of a sort of I started with my research
as when I was a university professor. I'm retired now
from that, but as in the research I was doing,
and then that kind of I was seeing it in
my patients in my practice. But what was fascinating to
you is two things. Was here, I'm doing this work
on it. I'm like, this is a real problem. So
(04:24):
I'm going to all the books. I'm like, how come
nobody's talking about this? Like is there something wrong with me?
Am I missing something? And nobody would really talk about
it in the field of mental health? I said, Oh,
just my educating, my clients is making a difference, and
we were seeing in the research that it would have
some really interesting effects on health and mental health. It
was honestly only after doing that work that I realized
(04:45):
that this was my thing, Like this had actually like, okay,
this is becoming more clear to me now the stuff
that had happened in my family, stuff that had happened
in intimate relationships, stuff that had happened in friendships and
in the workplace. Most of my life I've blamed to myself.
I didn't work hard enough, I didn't try hard enough.
I'm not this enough, I'm not that enough. I was like, okay, sister,
(05:06):
hold on, maybe this wasn't you. And once I started
breaking it down because I had many very successful, happy friendships, relationships,
family relationships, you name it. But this subset had a
lot in common.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Hmm, Okay, I see, because I feel that I was
in a relationship with a narcissist. I mean now that
I know a little bit more about it. And after
we broke up, I started, you know, reading, and there
there were blogs and Instagram quotes and stuff like that,
and I'm like, oh my gosh, this kind of sounds
like him, and it was. You know, I just always
felt kind of like gas lit in a way, like
(05:40):
it was just I'd say, hey, this hurt my feelings.
Oh well, maybe that's you you're feeling insecure or I
just you know what I mean, Like I started seeing
certain things.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Yeah, that's not okay. And so even that sequence you
just described there, you know, you're sharing a feeling, maybe
you're feeling insecure, all of that. In a healthy relationship,
a healthy partner would hold space for that feeling and say,
you know, do you want to talk about it? Is
there anything I could do to help? I'm so sorry,
(06:11):
you know, I think you're wonderful. However, I know you're
going through something. It would be a validation of the feeling,
not a pathologizing of the feeling, like there's something wrong
with you. You're not supposed to have that feeling. Who are
you to judge r feeling? I can have, you know,
and so that you're right, it's manipulation, it's gaslighting. But
I think a lot of people don't even know what
(06:32):
it's supposed to look like in a healthy relationship.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
And now that I am in a healthy relationship, I feel,
you know, we go to therapy like you know, I
see and I feel the difference. I feel like now
I'm able to be the best version of myself. Like
it's not I always feel like, oh my gosh, am
I the problem? Am I causing him to get upset?
It was always some way, somehow it would turn around
(06:55):
and it was my fault, you know, And it was
just that's when I'm like, Okay, I'm so interest in
this and it's something I actually had a question for you.
Is this something that people are born with or are
you seeing it more now in the society that we
live in with social media or is this something that
you develop?
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Yeah, something you develop. I think that the only if
you will inborn. Part of this is that children are
born with temperaments. It's like a biological part of our personality.
And the way temperament might show up in a baby
is a baby that's difficult, difficult to souse. They're a
more difficult child. They're more behaviorally agitated, they don't listen,
(07:34):
they are very demanding of attention. They wear out the
adults around them. Frankly, and it's tough because our a
little kid. You'd never said child was narcissistic, But if
that child with that kind of temperament keeps coming up
against a lot of resistance and invalidation in their environment.
It's argued that that could certainly give development to a
narcissistic personality, but there's lots of other pathways too. Also.
(07:57):
Children who experience adverse childhood experiences like trauma and neglect
and inconsistent inconsistently available caregivers or parents, or any of
those things. Those could set up a person for narcissism.
Parents who over indulged, children who don't let them learn
to regulate, who don't have good rules and boundaries, not
(08:18):
cruel ones, like good ones like consistency, bedtimes and homework.
And the child has some predictability in their life that
might look different as long as it's predictable to the child.
It doesn't have to be a certain way. But the
child has to know that there are things that you
know that again are predictable, and they feel safe with
the adults in their environment that could be lacking. Children
who are told that they're very special and more special
(08:39):
than any other child, that could be a factor. So
you see that there's a lot of factors here, and
a lot of children are exposed to those things and
don't become narcissistic. So it's very clear that there's some
mix of factors, but by and large, this is something
that's made. A child is not born narcissistic.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
I see, okay, And I don't know if this is
like a question for the lack of a better word, but
do you see it more in male or females or
it just doesn't matter, you know what I mean. Like,
it's not like you could say I see it more
in one or the other.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
So grandiose narcissism, malignant narcissism. Grandiose narcissism is sort of
the kind of the show off, arrogant, attention seeking narcissism.
We tend to see that more in men. However, there's
a form of narcissism called vulnerable narcissism that is more
about people who they're more anxious and resentful and angry
(09:33):
at the world and victimize, and so it's more they
almost look anxious and depressed more than anything. That's equal.
Men and women are pretty similar in that style. So
this is still evolving. Listen, enough people out there have
told me they have a narcissistic mother that I know
that Obviously there's narcissistic women, and enough people have that happened.
I'm like, Okay, this isn't as small as we would think.
(09:55):
But I do think that to your other question, and
you asked it before to round it out, is does
society make this happen? Society doesn't help. But remember we're
all exposed to society, right, We're all exposed to social
media and what the world has become and what it
expects the people. Most of us are not ending up narcissistic.
So again, there's specific factors that pull for that from people.
(10:17):
And what I think is that narcissistic people use those
spaces differently. So where one person may go to social
media and say I just say I'm having fun and
I have my thoughts about the world. I just want
to share them, but they also maintain very healthy, empathic, respectful,
compassionate relationships. The narcissistic person is using a space like
(10:39):
social media to basically mainline validation. You know, they're posting,
just look at me, tell me how great I am. Please,
And if they don't get it, they get angry, and
so they comandeer these spaces to get a psychological need
mat and a healthy person that's not what's happening or
should not be what's happening?
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Oh my goodness right now, Like, as I'm hearing you speak,
I'm thinking of someone in my life that's very close,
and I'm like, oh my goodness, I see a lot
of those traits that you know could be you know,
of a narcissist, just thinking I'm not going to say
the name, obviously, but I'm just like, WHOA, what makes
(11:20):
a narcissistic person so charming?
Speaker 2 (11:25):
So okay? So the charm is again, Narcissistic people are
very oriented to what's outside of them. In fact, they've
got a really uncanny ability to know what the world likes,
what the world wants, and what you need to do
to get that kind of attention. Right, So charm is
part of that offensive, right, if I could be really
(11:46):
smooth and Narcissistic people are also by and large, not
in all cases, but by and large very extroverted too.
So they're really good at meeting people at events, at parties,
at being on the stage and being super engaging because
you've got to remember, it's filling a need for them.
So if you or I got on a stage so
I can speak for myself, I got on stage. I'll
(12:08):
do it because it's the nature of my work. I'll
do it because I like talking about stuff. But I
got to tell you, I'm exhausted after that. It's not
serving a psychological need. It's my job, right. I'd be happy,
or certainly'd be nice if the audience clap, but if
the audience didn't clap, it wouldn't be a psychological end
for me. It would just sort of be like, I
did my job, I got my check, I'm going home.
For a narcissistic person, that charm gets them the main
(12:31):
thing they need, which is validation and admiration, and then
they will as relationships go on, they concern themselves more
with power and control, so that charm serves the function
of getting them that thing that they need more than
anything else.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Yeah. See, then that's a thing. They can be very
controlling and very you know in their relationships or even
with their you know, their employees or people around them.
It's just it makes them feel more power, I guess,
is what I've seen, and they need that. Like you said,
it's really feeling a void, and really it is in
(13:07):
security because I think when you love yourself and you
know who you are. No matter if you get the
you know, the recognition or not, you still know well,
I know who I am. I still love myself. Everything's fine,
right AnyWho. I'm speaking out loud because I'm just starting
to realize so many things as I'm speaking to you. Okay, So,
are narcissists as dangerous and or harmful as we think
(13:27):
they are?
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Depends? It's a complicated question. I mean, listen, danger is
a subjective term if you're talking about like physical bodily danger.
Here's what's very interesting. There was a research study that
came out in twenty twenty one and they've done a
really comprehensive overview of violence, aggression, and narcissism, and across
the board, narcissistic personality was associated with all forms of
(13:49):
aggression and violence. Now that doesn't mean that all narcissistic
people are aggressive in violence. It means that when you
see aggressive violent behavior, it wouldn't be it was very
likely that there's a narcissistic person behind. So that's how
that works. You put your focus on the aggression and
it's not like, oh, here's a narcissistic person, they're going
to be physically dangerous. I think that by enlarge, people
who are more at the moderate to more severe levels
(14:11):
of narcissism can be quite psychologically, maybe not dangerous in
all cases, but problematic. The more severe it gets, the
more likely it could be very, very dangerous and cause
incredibly harmful fallout to the person in a relationship, including
complex trauma and all sorts of stuff. So what we
see is there's different kinds of narcissism. Number One, narcissism
is on a continuum from mild to severe. The more
(14:34):
severe the narcissism, the more risk and more danger to
a person in a relationship with this person or in
proximity to them. There's also different kinds of narcissism. I
was talking about grandiose narcissism, sort of the arrogant, pretentious,
look at me narcissists. The vulnerable, more anxious, resentful narcissists.
There's also the malignant narcissist who is more exploitative, manipulative, callous, calculating, cold.
(14:57):
They're more likely to be dangerous. They'll engage in things
like coercive control where they're constantly creating a sense of
fear and threat, and they financially isolate people. There are
communal narcissists who get their attention by doing what seem
like good things in the world. They'll be very charitable
and look at me, I'm saving the puppies, I'm saving
(15:17):
the elephants. I'm at a gala, raising so much money.
But it's really to get validation. And in fact, they'll
treat individual people quite badly. And so you know, as
we get into all these different forms of narcissism that
it'll show up differently. When we're talking about danger, malignant
narcissistic folks definitely are in that space, more severe narcissism.
It's in that space. At the moderate level, these are
(15:39):
not healthy relationships for us to be in. So you
know that war dangers a little bit sort of you know,
it's a bit vague, but you know what I'm saying
that they're not good for us. These relationships aren't good
for us at the mild, mild end of narcissism, right.
I always say that they're sort of emotionally stunted adolescents, right,
which is fine if you're an adolescent. It might even
be fine in your twin and early thirties, but there's
(16:01):
a point when you wake up at forty or forty five,
and you don't want to be picking up underwear off
the floor like fifty. You should not be scrolling obsessively
through an Instagram or a TikTok reel saying you know,
I hope people like my video. Like no, I mean
there's an and doing that to the detriment of other
responsibilities and people in your family and all of that.
So there's like they don't grow up. They're caught up
(16:24):
in really superficial pursuits. They again, they kind of walk
around the world eternally as an adolescent. Is that dangerous?
I don't know dangerous is the right word. But if
you're in an adult relationship with someone like that, they'd
be very frustrating. If this is your parent, they'll be
very selfish and always put their needs first. It's not
great for the other people around them, but most people
sort of roll their eyes and sort of view them
(16:45):
as sort of an irresponsible, perpetual teenager.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
And see. And for the listeners, I think what I
would tell you, guys or is I've gotten to an
age where it doesn't matter who the person is if
they're not giving me peace, if I feel like I'm
constantly walking on eggshells. I just don't want to have
those people around me, you know. And I think that
that's the question you guys have to ask, like how
(17:10):
dangerous is it? Not where they're going to take your life,
God forbid. But I'm saying, like, is it really tormenting
you mentally, physically and emotionally. That's a decision that you
have to make. And now I feel like I can
kind of tell this person has some narcissistic traits and
I don't necessarily want that in my life, and you just,
you know, I think it's more of a personal decision.
(17:30):
But yes, I mean, do you feel that narcissistic people
can change? I mean, I'm a huge advocate of therapy.
Do you think through therapy they can change?
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Not enough, probably to make a significant difference for people
in very close relationships to them. A lot of it
has to do with where the narcissism started. Okay, So
let's say you have a person who's narcissistic personality really
does seem to trace back to a rather traumatic origin,
complex trauma and the family abuse, something like that. That
(18:02):
would be a person who would be a great candidate
for trauma informed therapy and it could very well be
that addressing that trauma and then addressing the current behavioral
patterns not showing up well, being entitled, being arrogant, not
accounting for the feelings of others, that the connection of
the trauma. We could see these patterns and sort of
the post traumatic narcissism, and then tying them to current patterns,
(18:26):
you could actually probably create somewhat meaningful change. Right, But
you're talking about very long term therapy with an extraordinarily
skilled therapist who is not only trauma informed, but is
narcissism informed, and to do that work for years. The
fact is that's not available to most people. I mean,
that kind of therapy is not eight sessions. It's not
you whatever random therapist you're thrown at by an insurance company.
(18:49):
This is a skilled person. It's going to cost, and
that is not available to a lot of people. Now,
if you don't have that kind of origin, like this
is sort of your spoiled child narcissism or something I
actually don't seem much likely to change. And at the
end of the day, here's what it comes down to.
If a narcissistic person in real time is saying, oh
my god, all right, Okay, I get it. I am
(19:10):
such an ahole. I am horrible to people. They're able
to see that we have something we could work with.
That very very rarely happens, and it often takes rock
bottom or scorched earth, like their life completely goes to hell.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
Right.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Everybody leaves them, everyone cuts them off, they lose their business,
there's a public scandal, whatever, And then they look around
and there's nobody around. And some people have that awakening
moment right then and say epiphany of some kind like Okay,
I gotta do something. But they still have to be accountable.
If you have in real time a narcissistic person who
(19:46):
has zero accountability and continues to blame the world, the
likelihood of change is almost none. And when I'm walking
people through narcissistic abuse, I will tell them, I know
the fantasy you've had. This person's going to change, They're
going to go to therapy. The odds are not in
your favor. So if you're sitting around waiting for this
person to change, this could be a really long wait.
(20:07):
And meanwhile, your life is on ice.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Heck yeah, and it's freaking draining. So I'm very draining,
very very very emotionally exhausting. It's just it's a lot
you guys. So I mean I always say the first
step to change is really wanting that and recognizing and
like doctor Romney said, taking accountability. So ooh, I mean,
(20:30):
are there some popular manipulation tactics that narcissists use? For instance,
I love bombing.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Yeah, so love bombing is an interesting one, right, because
now we're talking about the relationships we choose. I mean,
I think it's hard because some people are listening to
this and thing that's actually my mom who's narcissistic, or
my dad, or my brother or my sister. I didn't
choose these people, like I was thrown in with them.
But in a lot of narcissistic relationships, and often the
ones that cause the most trouble are the ones that
(20:56):
are with people we choose my partners most pointedly, partners
sometimes friends. Right, So, in an early phase of a
romantic relationship with a narcissist, they're going to engage in
something called love bombing. And this can look a lot
of different ways. I think we have a prototype of
love bombing like big gestures and texting you a lot
(21:17):
great first night and you go out dancing, and you
stay out for hours and there's flowers waiting for you
and the gifts and good morning babe, and you're on
my princess and all this stuff right. Doesn't always look
that way. Sometimes love bombing could just be somebody who
is paying a lot of attention to something that really
really matters to you, so you feel really seen. It
(21:38):
could be somebody who tells you that no one's ever
listened to my problems the way you do. You understand
me like nobody's ever understood me before, and so now
you feel really special. It's not like you're showing up
with five dozen roses. It's that they're saying you are
so amazing because you get me so amazingly, and you
feel really overwhelmed by it, and they want to spend
(22:00):
all this time with you. There's often not always, but
there can often be a lot of time involved in
love bombing. And the other thing that starts happening in
love bombing is that there's a lot of backing and
forthing at this point. In a fair number of narcissistic relationships.
They'll come in and then they'll pull out, and then
they'll come in and then they'll pull out and that,
and so it'll sort of be this am I in,
(22:21):
this am I not. And that's where people start getting confused,
very very much start getting confused, and so that back
and forth also throws people off. But the entire phase
is very confusing. And the thing that's happening during love
bombing is it's almost like a it's an indoctrination period.
And a lot of people will say, this was an
amazing time. I felt special, I felt seen, I felt
(22:43):
a lot in common with this person. It had this big, bright,
beautiful energy. Were there tiny fault lines coming up? Sure?
There might be sort of you want to spend time
with your friend and they're saying like, oh, I guess
you're not that into me, And they'll make it about
your lack of commitment. You might have to start working more,
and they'll sort of look sideways at that. They might
(23:04):
make little digs at what you do for a living.
They might be a little bit sort of sneering and
contemptuous of something that matters to you, and you'll not
even be sure that they're joking or not right. So
it'll take them in as like, what is happening here?
But I really am into them? So now you're starting
to make excuses, right like, oh, I'm so many to them,
we're having so much fun. That didn't feel nice. But now, no,
(23:25):
maybe I'm reading that wrong. Now you start blaming yourself.
And so as that goes on with enough months, the
love bombing is not gonna last forever. And what's interesting
about the love bombing is it can show up throughout
the relationship, even if you're with someone for many, many years.
If you have a conflict and they're trying to suck
you back in, they will love bombing you. But it
won't be as pronounced as the first time. But little
(23:47):
things like there'll be a gift, there'll be a gesture,
they'll know you want to trash cans brought in, whatever
your thing is, and that's happening, like, Okay, maybe I
misread the relationship. Maybe it's not that bad. And so
that's clearly obviously manipulation because what it's doing is it's
confusing you. And as love bumming goes on and the
person starts to pull away, a lot of people will
(24:07):
want to rush in and say no, no, no, no, no,
wait wait wait I don't know that I want this,
You know I don't. I don't want this to go away,
and no, it's not great. But if you now start feeling,
if you put any conditions on this relationship, it's going
to evaporate.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Oh my goodness, you guys, I'm like blown away. I
feel like I've been in two narcissistic relationships. And the
crazy thing is is that I think, like you said, doctor,
it's there's different levels to it, you know what I mean.
One can be super severe and you see it right away,
and then right now what you just explain, it's like
an emotional rollercoaster. There's there're one foot in, one foot out,
(24:44):
they're hot and they're cold, and it's just you're constantly
on your on, you know, on your tippy toes sort
of thing. And that also is like, oh, it's so exhausting.
Oh my goodness. Who's vulnerable to being exploited and abused
by a narcissist? Or like, is everyone equally vulnerable?
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Everyone's vulnerable, but everyone's not equally vulnerable, right, So it's
not like this idea that some of us are completely immune.
I think you could be immune if you don't fall
for things like charm and charisma, but not even that
because if they're not using the whole charm and charisma
game but making it like, wow, you're such a great listener,
you know so much. That could be quite seductive. That's
not necessarily charming and charismatic. I think every like I said,
(25:28):
everyone is vulnerable, but the folks who might be a
little bit more vulnerable, certainly people who came from families
where this was the dynamic, so that trauma bonded cycle,
that equating love and chaos, the up and down roller
coaster that you think love is supposed to feel like.
That can set someone up for thinking like, oh, I'm
in another roller coaster. Of course this is love, right.
(25:49):
It's not a conscious process, but it feels familiar. It
feels like something you want to fight for, So that
can set someone up. Another thing that can set people
up is that if they're rescuers, I can fix this.
I can make this better. I need to I can.
You know, maybe I didn't do this right, maybe I
didn't do that right. I could do better. I could
do better. The narcissistic person almost becomes a project. Those
(26:09):
folks can get pilled in. People who are very forgiving
are very vulnerable to narcissistic folks, because once the narcissistic
person realizes like, I can get away with stuff in
this relationship, whatever it is, then they are sort of
they're in because they now know they can. And if
your nature is to be very forgiving or even really
optimistic and positive, that, believe it or not, can also
(26:29):
put you at risk for these relationships. And then there's
other things that could be happening in your life. Some
people find that they were more vulnerable to narcissistic folks
when they were going through a transition, coming out a
breakup and moving to a new city, between jobs, starting
a new job, starting a new school. You're maybe in
an unfamiliar routine or rhythm, you're sort of off your game.
(26:51):
That's a place where somebody comes in and starts a
whole love mom, You're so great cycle. That can definitely
sort of throw you off, and people might be more vulnerable.
People in a rush are vulnerable narcissistic people because especially
people who might feel like I feel like I need
to get married or I want to have children or
whatever it may be, that kind of clipped pace will say, oh, Okay,
(27:12):
I'm making too big a deal out of that. I'm
making too big a deal because you want it to work,
you want it to fit. So all of those things
can make people a little bit more vulnerable, But I
think at the end of the day, everyone is those
other things just sort of amp up the odds.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
And when you're in a relationship with a narcissist, you
do you feel like constantly, like what you do is
not enough, like it's just your You always feel like
you have to play kind of like catch up, like
I'm catching up and trying to make you happy constantly.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Yeah, I mean people will the thing with a narcissistic relationship,
it will never be enough. The nature of the relationship
style is they need so much validation it's called narcissistic supply,
that no one could ever provide enough to them. For
healthy old they can generate their own supply, like I
had a good day at work today, or what a
(28:05):
beautiful day it is outside, or whatever it is. They're
able to do that for themselves, so they're not looking
to other people. We all love compliments, we all love
getting a gift or something, but we don't sort of
set every set our inner barometer by that narcissistic people do,
so no one person could ever bring enough supply, and
if you try to do that, you could actually exhaust
(28:28):
yourself because the narcissistic person becomes literally a full time job.
And that's what people will say this that I just
gave my everything to this. I gave up everything in
my life. I gave up my job, I gave up
my friends. I did things on their schedule. I moved
where they wanted, I ate the way they wanted, I
looked the way they wanted. And it's never going to
be enough. So I'm like, don't even play that game.
Speaker 3 (28:48):
Now.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
You're just throwing money after money and getting absolutely nothing
for it. So that's the narcissist problem. But a lot
of people blame themselves. Well, maybe if I had been thinner,
maybe if I had been home more often, Maybe if
I'd just been friendlier, Maybe if I'd been more of this,
Maybe if I'd been more of that. And that's what
confuses the whole picture.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Is there a way to coexist if you're in a
relationship with a narcissist or like a family member or
I want to just say, like I said earlier, if
someone just doesn't bring you peace, and doesn't matter who
it is, you just you have that choice of you
know xnaying that person from your life. But is there
a way to coexist?
Speaker 2 (29:26):
I would say you got to start with realistic expectations
and radical acceptance. This isn't going to change, right. So
there's no version of this where they're going to listen
better or think you're enough, or be empathic or you know,
or not be selfish. That's just that's not a thing.
So part of it is the shift to like, Okay,
this is it. This is as good as it gets,
and recognizing the limitations of the relationship, right. And once
(29:49):
you recognize the limitations of it, you're going to stop
turning it to it for something that it's not. And
that's hard. This is your spouse, if this is your
long term partner, this is a sibling, if this is
one of your best friends. It's really hard to do
that because then a lot of people will say this
isn't even a relationship. I'm like, well, that's that's your
conversation to have. I'm telling you this is what it is.
(30:10):
And so I think that when you recognize you could
have a very limited relationship with them, you really can't
get into stuff with them. They're often baiting you and
looking for a fight. That's not good for you. See.
I always say it's almost like you just got to
keep the topics neutral, you know, when somebody once said
to me, it's like sports, news and weather. You can't
even talk about the news anymore, so you're kind of
loft with weather. So it's like weather or like, wow,
(30:33):
did you hear it's going to rain next week? Or
it's been hotter than usual, Like that's about as deep
as it's going to get. Maybe like oh, look there's
a dog in the street. I wonder whose dog that is.
Or somebody's cutting down that tree. It's just not you
can't go that deep with them. Or if you want
to keep the trains running on time, just listen to
them and not a lot.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
You know.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
I always say that a conversation with a narcissist is
like listening to a podcast about one person. They just talk,
there's no interruption. You're like, okay, hopefully it's interesting. And
so that's the reality. But it does mean that simultaneous
to that, you need your own supports. You need friends
where you can have a deep relationship, or family or
(31:12):
whoever it is, that if you have spaces where you
can go deep with people and it feels connected and good.
Those are going to really be places where you heal
and feel connected and recognize that this narcissistic relationship is
deeply limited. But recognizing that can bring a lot of grief,
especially if this is a significant person in someone's life,
like a parent or a spouse, or a sibling or
(31:35):
a long term friend. Be like, Okay, I kept trying
to make this work. You're telling me now it can't work.
In a way, I feel like I'm mentally giving up
on them but still showing up. But that's how you
get through it. I mean, because most people can't walk
away from all of these relationships. It's a luxury when
you can. So because most people can't, you do have
(31:55):
to recognize that there's going to have to be workarounds.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Yeah, recognize that it's more than likely all the time
going to be one sided. It has to be on
the surface, and you just have to kind of ask yourself,
am I willing to do this for the rest of
my life? It's really a, like we said earlier, a
personal decision because it is very, very draining, very draining.
Is there anything else that you would like to you know,
(32:19):
an important note that you'd like to add, doctor.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Well, I think that the most difficult thing that happens
to people in these relationships is a lot of self blame.
Is this my fault? Did I not try hard enough?
Is there a different way I could say this?
Speaker 3 (32:30):
No?
Speaker 2 (32:31):
The answer to that is no, it's really setting yourself
free from this. This is their personality. It's not yours,
your bad luck as you're looped into this. I understand
a lot of people love folks with these personalities. I
do too. And the other thing that confuses people is
that there are some good days. It's not bad every day.
There can be days, weeks, even months that are good.
Things are going well in the narcissistic person's life, so
(32:53):
they show up as a really nice person. It's not
that these people are all bad all the time, and
that's what creates the confusion, because go south, it goes
south quick and it's mean, and then they might come
back again. But what they'll never do is take accountability
or apologize. We all have bad days, and we all
have days we don't always say the best thing. But
a healthy person will say that was not okay, I
(33:15):
am very sorry. I mean, I have my excuses, but
at the end of the day, I did not treat
you well, I am sorry, and they take responsibility and
then they don't do it again. It's all understandable, but
with a narcissistic person, they'll never be that accountability, which
is why a lot of people blame themselves. And these
relationships can really do a number on people. So healing
is a real thing, and whether that's to therapy or
(33:36):
other support groups are just doing your own work on you,
it is, but it's above all else recognizing these personalities
rarely change significantly enough to make a difference for you.
So it's really going to be about sort of shifting
your expectations and fostering other parts of your life.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
Wow, thank you so much, doctor Romney. Honestly, I enjoyed
this conversation very much. I learned a lot, and I
know that my listeners did as well. I think we've
all encountered one at least once in our life, and
if you haven't, now you can listen to the pod
and just kind of recognize it. Is there anywhere else?
I mean, you have your podcast right navigating Narcissism? Is
(34:13):
there anywhere else that they can find you? My listeners
so they can hear a little bit more about narcissism.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Yeah, so definitely come, but also iHeart come to the
podcast Navigating Narcissism. I also have for people who really
do want to focus on healing, I have a healing
program and if you go to my website doctor Romedy
dot com and I'm sure you have the links, you
can go and check that out because it's something on
a monthly program and there's workshops and questions and answer
sessions and journal prompts and meditations, so there's a lot
(34:40):
of stuff that people can work with to sort of
help on their healing process. And if you do go
to my website, you'll see I have many more resources, books,
other recommendations, and I have a YouTube channel where we
post new content every day, so it's always evolving and changing,
so there's always information you can get there as well.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
I love that. I'm definitely going to be checking. I
will thank you so much you guys. I hope you
enjoyed this episode. And before we go, we always have
our motivational quote, So the quote for today is, if
you are a giver and you have a big heart,
(35:18):
to be truly happy, you must learn when to let go. Naturally,
you're going to care when you shouldn't, you're going to
stay longer than you should, and you're going to give
when you have nothing. Know when to stop and let
things be. That is a quote. I don't know who
needs to hear that, but I definitely needed that in
my life quite a bit. I've learned that with obstacles
(35:39):
and things that I've had to face. So anyhow, doctor Rominey,
thank you so much for being on. Thank you for
your time, thank you for everything I am. You guys
have no idea how I feel right now. I just
feel enlightened, but thank you. And again, thank you everyone
for listening. And I will catch you on the next
episode of Cheeks and Chill. Los kiro do you need
(36:05):
advice on love, relationships, health emails? I'm so excited to
share with you that my Cheeky's and Chill podcast will
have an extra episode drop each week. I'll be answering
all your questions.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
Just leave me a voice message betters on my midday.
All you have to do is go to speak pipe
dot com slash Cheeky's and Chill podcasts and record your questions.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
I can't wait to hear from you. This is a
production of iHeartRadio and the Michaeldura podcast Network. Follow us
on Instagram at Michael Doura Podcasts and follow me Cheeky's
That's c h i q u i s. For more
podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
(36:49):
wherever you listen to your favorite podcast, and check us
out on YouTube.
I feel that I was in a relationship with a
narcissist now that I know a little bit more about it,
and after we broke up, and I'm like, oh my gosh,
this kind of sounds like him.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Narcissistic people are very oriented to what's outside of them.
In fact, they've got a really uncanny ability to know
what the world likes. So charm is part of that offensive.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Are there some popular manipulation tactics that narcissists use.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
In an early phase of a romantic relationship. They're going
to engage in something called love bombing, and this can
look a lot of different ways.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
What up, y'all? Happy Monday everyone. I'm really looking forward
to today's conversation because we're going to talk about all
things narcissism. We have a lot to talk about, so
let's get into it. This is Cheeky's and Chill, all right,
(01:04):
So today we have none other than doctor Rominy. She
has a very long and impressive resume. She's a clinical
psychologist and a professor at cal State Los Angeles, an
author of several books, and she also hosts the podcast
Navigating Narcissism. Oh my goodness, doctor, how are you?
Speaker 2 (01:22):
I'm fine, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Oh my god, of course I'm excited. I'm excited to
talk to you about this topic because I feel like
it's a word that people use and just kind of
throw around quite a bit now more than ever. I
hadn't heard of this word until like literally like ten
years ago, and now I feel like I hear it everywhere.
So I'm glad that you're on and you can really
(01:45):
get down to what it really is so that we're
not just throwing it around so freely. So tell us,
let's start off with what is narcissism.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
So first of all, I do want to know highlight
your points that we do throw it around, and I
think that's become a real problem because it's a word
that has describes a lot, has a lot of power.
It also has a fair amount of stigma, so it's
important to use it right. So, narcissism is a personality style.
It's not a disorder, it's not a diagnosis. It's a
(02:16):
personality style. And this personality style is characterized by a
person that has variable empathy. They're egocentric and selfish, They're entitled, grandiose,
constantly seeking validation and admiration, They envy other people. They
often can be quite controlling, They monopolize conversations, they take
(02:39):
advantage of other people. They can be very manipulative. But really,
underneath all of that stuff I'm describing, it's really a
deep insecurity. And so their lives are sort of lived
forever in this kind of overcompensated kind of in this space.
But they're not aware of that. It's not like they say, oh, hey,
it's nice to make sure I'm insecure, so I've got
to do all this stuff feel better about myself. It's
(03:01):
not that. And if you were to ever suggest, like, hmm,
maybe you're doing this because you're insecure, they would rage
at you. It's not fair to say a narcissistic person
lacks empathy. They have again when I said variable empathy,
they know what it is. They know people like it.
It's very performative, so they know if they behave empathically
that might get them validation. They'll use it to get
(03:23):
what they want. They might use it early in a relationship,
but frankly, once they've got what they need from you
and your validation is no longer that interesting, then not
so much empathy. And if they're having a good day,
they feel safe, they feel supplied more empathy. On a
day they're having a bad day, not so much empathy.
And that jumping all around means that it's not always
(03:44):
bad with them. You can narcissistic people are incredibly charming
and charismatic and confident. So it's all this difficult stuff
and this stuff that looks good. Mix it up, and
then that's why you get this really confusing personality style.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Oh my goodness, And what made you interested in narcissists?
Speaker 2 (04:02):
It's funny the way I got into it. It was
more of a sort of I started with my research
as when I was a university professor. I'm retired now
from that, but as in the research I was doing,
and then that kind of I was seeing it in
my patients in my practice. But what was fascinating to
you is two things. Was here, I'm doing this work
on it. I'm like, this is a real problem. So
(04:24):
I'm going to all the books. I'm like, how come
nobody's talking about this? Like is there something wrong with me?
Am I missing something? And nobody would really talk about
it in the field of mental health? I said, Oh,
just my educating, my clients is making a difference, and
we were seeing in the research that it would have
some really interesting effects on health and mental health. It
was honestly only after doing that work that I realized
(04:45):
that this was my thing, Like this had actually like, okay,
this is becoming more clear to me now the stuff
that had happened in my family, stuff that had happened
in intimate relationships, stuff that had happened in friendships and
in the workplace. Most of my life I've blamed to myself.
I didn't work hard enough, I didn't try hard enough.
I'm not this enough, I'm not that enough. I was like, okay, sister,
(05:06):
hold on, maybe this wasn't you. And once I started
breaking it down because I had many very successful, happy friendships, relationships,
family relationships, you name it. But this subset had a
lot in common.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Hmm, Okay, I see, because I feel that I was
in a relationship with a narcissist. I mean now that
I know a little bit more about it. And after
we broke up, I started, you know, reading, and there
there were blogs and Instagram quotes and stuff like that,
and I'm like, oh my gosh, this kind of sounds
like him, and it was. You know, I just always
felt kind of like gas lit in a way, like
(05:40):
it was just I'd say, hey, this hurt my feelings.
Oh well, maybe that's you you're feeling insecure or I
just you know what I mean, Like I started seeing
certain things.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Yeah, that's not okay. And so even that sequence you
just described there, you know, you're sharing a feeling, maybe
you're feeling insecure, all of that. In a healthy relationship,
a healthy partner would hold space for that feeling and say,
you know, do you want to talk about it? Is
there anything I could do to help? I'm so sorry,
(06:11):
you know, I think you're wonderful. However, I know you're
going through something. It would be a validation of the feeling,
not a pathologizing of the feeling, like there's something wrong
with you. You're not supposed to have that feeling. Who are
you to judge r feeling? I can have, you know,
and so that you're right, it's manipulation, it's gaslighting. But
I think a lot of people don't even know what
(06:32):
it's supposed to look like in a healthy relationship.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
And now that I am in a healthy relationship, I feel,
you know, we go to therapy like you know, I
see and I feel the difference. I feel like now
I'm able to be the best version of myself. Like
it's not I always feel like, oh my gosh, am
I the problem? Am I causing him to get upset?
It was always some way, somehow it would turn around
(06:55):
and it was my fault, you know, And it was
just that's when I'm like, Okay, I'm so interest in
this and it's something I actually had a question for you.
Is this something that people are born with or are
you seeing it more now in the society that we
live in with social media or is this something that
you develop?
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Yeah, something you develop. I think that the only if
you will inborn. Part of this is that children are
born with temperaments. It's like a biological part of our personality.
And the way temperament might show up in a baby
is a baby that's difficult, difficult to souse. They're a
more difficult child. They're more behaviorally agitated, they don't listen,
(07:34):
they are very demanding of attention. They wear out the
adults around them. Frankly, and it's tough because our a
little kid. You'd never said child was narcissistic, But if
that child with that kind of temperament keeps coming up
against a lot of resistance and invalidation in their environment.
It's argued that that could certainly give development to a
narcissistic personality, but there's lots of other pathways too. Also.
(07:57):
Children who experience adverse childhood experiences like trauma and neglect
and inconsistent inconsistently available caregivers or parents, or any of
those things. Those could set up a person for narcissism.
Parents who over indulged, children who don't let them learn
to regulate, who don't have good rules and boundaries, not
(08:18):
cruel ones, like good ones like consistency, bedtimes and homework.
And the child has some predictability in their life that
might look different as long as it's predictable to the child.
It doesn't have to be a certain way. But the
child has to know that there are things that you
know that again are predictable, and they feel safe with
the adults in their environment that could be lacking. Children
who are told that they're very special and more special
(08:39):
than any other child, that could be a factor. So
you see that there's a lot of factors here, and
a lot of children are exposed to those things and
don't become narcissistic. So it's very clear that there's some
mix of factors, but by and large, this is something
that's made. A child is not born narcissistic.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
I see, okay, And I don't know if this is
like a question for the lack of a better word, but
do you see it more in male or females or
it just doesn't matter, you know what I mean. Like,
it's not like you could say I see it more
in one or the other.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
So grandiose narcissism, malignant narcissism. Grandiose narcissism is sort of
the kind of the show off, arrogant, attention seeking narcissism.
We tend to see that more in men. However, there's
a form of narcissism called vulnerable narcissism that is more
about people who they're more anxious and resentful and angry
(09:33):
at the world and victimize, and so it's more they
almost look anxious and depressed more than anything. That's equal.
Men and women are pretty similar in that style. So
this is still evolving. Listen, enough people out there have
told me they have a narcissistic mother that I know
that Obviously there's narcissistic women, and enough people have that happened.
I'm like, Okay, this isn't as small as we would think.
(09:55):
But I do think that to your other question, and
you asked it before to round it out, is does
society make this happen? Society doesn't help. But remember we're
all exposed to society, right, We're all exposed to social
media and what the world has become and what it
expects the people. Most of us are not ending up narcissistic.
So again, there's specific factors that pull for that from people.
(10:17):
And what I think is that narcissistic people use those
spaces differently. So where one person may go to social
media and say I just say I'm having fun and
I have my thoughts about the world. I just want
to share them, but they also maintain very healthy, empathic, respectful,
compassionate relationships. The narcissistic person is using a space like
(10:39):
social media to basically mainline validation. You know, they're posting,
just look at me, tell me how great I am. Please,
And if they don't get it, they get angry, and
so they comandeer these spaces to get a psychological need
mat and a healthy person that's not what's happening or
should not be what's happening?
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Oh my goodness right now, Like, as I'm hearing you speak,
I'm thinking of someone in my life that's very close,
and I'm like, oh my goodness, I see a lot
of those traits that you know could be you know,
of a narcissist, just thinking I'm not going to say
the name, obviously, but I'm just like, WHOA, what makes
(11:20):
a narcissistic person so charming?
Speaker 2 (11:25):
So okay? So the charm is again, Narcissistic people are
very oriented to what's outside of them. In fact, they've
got a really uncanny ability to know what the world likes,
what the world wants, and what you need to do
to get that kind of attention. Right, So charm is
part of that offensive, right, if I could be really
(11:46):
smooth and Narcissistic people are also by and large, not
in all cases, but by and large very extroverted too.
So they're really good at meeting people at events, at parties,
at being on the stage and being super engaging because
you've got to remember, it's filling a need for them.
So if you or I got on a stage so
I can speak for myself, I got on stage. I'll
(12:08):
do it because it's the nature of my work. I'll
do it because I like talking about stuff. But I
got to tell you, I'm exhausted after that. It's not
serving a psychological need. It's my job, right. I'd be happy,
or certainly'd be nice if the audience clap, but if
the audience didn't clap, it wouldn't be a psychological end
for me. It would just sort of be like, I
did my job, I got my check, I'm going home.
For a narcissistic person, that charm gets them the main
(12:31):
thing they need, which is validation and admiration, and then
they will as relationships go on, they concern themselves more
with power and control, so that charm serves the function
of getting them that thing that they need more than
anything else.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Yeah. See, then that's a thing. They can be very
controlling and very you know in their relationships or even
with their you know, their employees or people around them.
It's just it makes them feel more power, I guess,
is what I've seen, and they need that. Like you said,
it's really feeling a void, and really it is in
(13:07):
security because I think when you love yourself and you
know who you are. No matter if you get the
you know, the recognition or not, you still know well,
I know who I am. I still love myself. Everything's fine,
right AnyWho. I'm speaking out loud because I'm just starting
to realize so many things as I'm speaking to you. Okay, So,
are narcissists as dangerous and or harmful as we think
(13:27):
they are?
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Depends? It's a complicated question. I mean, listen, danger is
a subjective term if you're talking about like physical bodily danger.
Here's what's very interesting. There was a research study that
came out in twenty twenty one and they've done a
really comprehensive overview of violence, aggression, and narcissism, and across
the board, narcissistic personality was associated with all forms of
(13:49):
aggression and violence. Now that doesn't mean that all narcissistic
people are aggressive in violence. It means that when you
see aggressive violent behavior, it wouldn't be it was very
likely that there's a narcissistic person behind. So that's how
that works. You put your focus on the aggression and
it's not like, oh, here's a narcissistic person, they're going
to be physically dangerous. I think that by enlarge, people
who are more at the moderate to more severe levels
(14:11):
of narcissism can be quite psychologically, maybe not dangerous in
all cases, but problematic. The more severe it gets, the
more likely it could be very, very dangerous and cause
incredibly harmful fallout to the person in a relationship, including
complex trauma and all sorts of stuff. So what we
see is there's different kinds of narcissism. Number One, narcissism
is on a continuum from mild to severe. The more
(14:34):
severe the narcissism, the more risk and more danger to
a person in a relationship with this person or in
proximity to them. There's also different kinds of narcissism. I
was talking about grandiose narcissism, sort of the arrogant, pretentious,
look at me narcissists. The vulnerable, more anxious, resentful narcissists.
There's also the malignant narcissist who is more exploitative, manipulative, callous, calculating, cold.
(14:57):
They're more likely to be dangerous. They'll engage in things
like coercive control where they're constantly creating a sense of
fear and threat, and they financially isolate people. There are
communal narcissists who get their attention by doing what seem
like good things in the world. They'll be very charitable
and look at me, I'm saving the puppies, I'm saving
(15:17):
the elephants. I'm at a gala, raising so much money.
But it's really to get validation. And in fact, they'll
treat individual people quite badly. And so you know, as
we get into all these different forms of narcissism that
it'll show up differently. When we're talking about danger, malignant
narcissistic folks definitely are in that space, more severe narcissism.
It's in that space. At the moderate level, these are
(15:39):
not healthy relationships for us to be in. So you
know that war dangers a little bit sort of you know,
it's a bit vague, but you know what I'm saying
that they're not good for us. These relationships aren't good
for us at the mild, mild end of narcissism, right.
I always say that they're sort of emotionally stunted adolescents, right,
which is fine if you're an adolescent. It might even
be fine in your twin and early thirties, but there's
(16:01):
a point when you wake up at forty or forty five,
and you don't want to be picking up underwear off
the floor like fifty. You should not be scrolling obsessively
through an Instagram or a TikTok reel saying you know,
I hope people like my video. Like no, I mean
there's an and doing that to the detriment of other
responsibilities and people in your family and all of that.
So there's like they don't grow up. They're caught up
(16:24):
in really superficial pursuits. They again, they kind of walk
around the world eternally as an adolescent. Is that dangerous?
I don't know dangerous is the right word. But if
you're in an adult relationship with someone like that, they'd
be very frustrating. If this is your parent, they'll be
very selfish and always put their needs first. It's not
great for the other people around them, but most people
sort of roll their eyes and sort of view them
(16:45):
as sort of an irresponsible, perpetual teenager.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
And see. And for the listeners, I think what I
would tell you, guys or is I've gotten to an
age where it doesn't matter who the person is if
they're not giving me peace, if I feel like I'm
constantly walking on eggshells. I just don't want to have
those people around me, you know. And I think that
that's the question you guys have to ask, like how
(17:10):
dangerous is it? Not where they're going to take your life,
God forbid. But I'm saying, like, is it really tormenting
you mentally, physically and emotionally. That's a decision that you
have to make. And now I feel like I can
kind of tell this person has some narcissistic traits and
I don't necessarily want that in my life, and you just,
you know, I think it's more of a personal decision.
(17:30):
But yes, I mean, do you feel that narcissistic people
can change? I mean, I'm a huge advocate of therapy.
Do you think through therapy they can change?
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Not enough, probably to make a significant difference for people
in very close relationships to them. A lot of it
has to do with where the narcissism started. Okay, So
let's say you have a person who's narcissistic personality really
does seem to trace back to a rather traumatic origin,
complex trauma and the family abuse, something like that. That
(18:02):
would be a person who would be a great candidate
for trauma informed therapy and it could very well be
that addressing that trauma and then addressing the current behavioral
patterns not showing up well, being entitled, being arrogant, not
accounting for the feelings of others, that the connection of
the trauma. We could see these patterns and sort of
the post traumatic narcissism, and then tying them to current patterns,
(18:26):
you could actually probably create somewhat meaningful change. Right, But
you're talking about very long term therapy with an extraordinarily
skilled therapist who is not only trauma informed, but is
narcissism informed, and to do that work for years. The
fact is that's not available to most people. I mean,
that kind of therapy is not eight sessions. It's not
you whatever random therapist you're thrown at by an insurance company.
(18:49):
This is a skilled person. It's going to cost, and
that is not available to a lot of people. Now,
if you don't have that kind of origin, like this
is sort of your spoiled child narcissism or something I
actually don't seem much likely to change. And at the
end of the day, here's what it comes down to.
If a narcissistic person in real time is saying, oh
my god, all right, Okay, I get it. I am
(19:10):
such an ahole. I am horrible to people. They're able
to see that we have something we could work with.
That very very rarely happens, and it often takes rock
bottom or scorched earth, like their life completely goes to hell.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
Right.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Everybody leaves them, everyone cuts them off, they lose their business,
there's a public scandal, whatever, And then they look around
and there's nobody around. And some people have that awakening
moment right then and say epiphany of some kind like Okay,
I gotta do something. But they still have to be accountable.
If you have in real time a narcissistic person who
(19:46):
has zero accountability and continues to blame the world, the
likelihood of change is almost none. And when I'm walking
people through narcissistic abuse, I will tell them, I know
the fantasy you've had. This person's going to change, They're
going to go to therapy. The odds are not in
your favor. So if you're sitting around waiting for this
person to change, this could be a really long wait.
(20:07):
And meanwhile, your life is on ice.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Heck yeah, and it's freaking draining. So I'm very draining,
very very very emotionally exhausting. It's just it's a lot
you guys. So I mean I always say the first
step to change is really wanting that and recognizing and
like doctor Romney said, taking accountability. So ooh, I mean,
(20:30):
are there some popular manipulation tactics that narcissists use? For instance,
I love bombing.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Yeah, so love bombing is an interesting one, right, because
now we're talking about the relationships we choose. I mean,
I think it's hard because some people are listening to
this and thing that's actually my mom who's narcissistic, or
my dad, or my brother or my sister. I didn't
choose these people, like I was thrown in with them.
But in a lot of narcissistic relationships, and often the
ones that cause the most trouble are the ones that
(20:56):
are with people we choose my partners most pointedly, partners
sometimes friends. Right, So, in an early phase of a
romantic relationship with a narcissist, they're going to engage in
something called love bombing. And this can look a lot
of different ways. I think we have a prototype of
love bombing like big gestures and texting you a lot
(21:17):
great first night and you go out dancing, and you
stay out for hours and there's flowers waiting for you
and the gifts and good morning babe, and you're on
my princess and all this stuff right. Doesn't always look
that way. Sometimes love bombing could just be somebody who
is paying a lot of attention to something that really
really matters to you, so you feel really seen. It
(21:38):
could be somebody who tells you that no one's ever
listened to my problems the way you do. You understand
me like nobody's ever understood me before, and so now
you feel really special. It's not like you're showing up
with five dozen roses. It's that they're saying you are
so amazing because you get me so amazingly, and you
feel really overwhelmed by it, and they want to spend
(22:00):
all this time with you. There's often not always, but
there can often be a lot of time involved in
love bombing. And the other thing that starts happening in
love bombing is that there's a lot of backing and
forthing at this point. In a fair number of narcissistic relationships.
They'll come in and then they'll pull out, and then
they'll come in and then they'll pull out and that,
and so it'll sort of be this am I in,
(22:21):
this am I not. And that's where people start getting confused,
very very much start getting confused, and so that back
and forth also throws people off. But the entire phase
is very confusing. And the thing that's happening during love
bombing is it's almost like a it's an indoctrination period.
And a lot of people will say, this was an
amazing time. I felt special, I felt seen, I felt
(22:43):
a lot in common with this person. It had this big, bright,
beautiful energy. Were there tiny fault lines coming up? Sure?
There might be sort of you want to spend time
with your friend and they're saying like, oh, I guess
you're not that into me, And they'll make it about
your lack of commitment. You might have to start working more,
and they'll sort of look sideways at that. They might
(23:04):
make little digs at what you do for a living.
They might be a little bit sort of sneering and
contemptuous of something that matters to you, and you'll not
even be sure that they're joking or not right. So
it'll take them in as like, what is happening here?
But I really am into them? So now you're starting
to make excuses, right like, oh, I'm so many to them,
we're having so much fun. That didn't feel nice. But now, no,
(23:25):
maybe I'm reading that wrong. Now you start blaming yourself.
And so as that goes on with enough months, the
love bombing is not gonna last forever. And what's interesting
about the love bombing is it can show up throughout
the relationship, even if you're with someone for many, many years.
If you have a conflict and they're trying to suck
you back in, they will love bombing you. But it
won't be as pronounced as the first time. But little
(23:47):
things like there'll be a gift, there'll be a gesture,
they'll know you want to trash cans brought in, whatever
your thing is, and that's happening, like, Okay, maybe I
misread the relationship. Maybe it's not that bad. And so
that's clearly obviously manipulation because what it's doing is it's
confusing you. And as love bumming goes on and the
person starts to pull away, a lot of people will
(24:07):
want to rush in and say no, no, no, no, no,
wait wait wait I don't know that I want this,
You know I don't. I don't want this to go away,
and no, it's not great. But if you now start feeling,
if you put any conditions on this relationship, it's going
to evaporate.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Oh my goodness, you guys, I'm like blown away. I
feel like I've been in two narcissistic relationships. And the
crazy thing is is that I think, like you said, doctor,
it's there's different levels to it, you know what I mean.
One can be super severe and you see it right away,
and then right now what you just explain, it's like
an emotional rollercoaster. There's there're one foot in, one foot out,
(24:44):
they're hot and they're cold, and it's just you're constantly
on your on, you know, on your tippy toes sort
of thing. And that also is like, oh, it's so exhausting.
Oh my goodness. Who's vulnerable to being exploited and abused
by a narcissist? Or like, is everyone equally vulnerable?
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Everyone's vulnerable, but everyone's not equally vulnerable, right, So it's
not like this idea that some of us are completely immune.
I think you could be immune if you don't fall
for things like charm and charisma, but not even that
because if they're not using the whole charm and charisma
game but making it like, wow, you're such a great listener,
you know so much. That could be quite seductive. That's
not necessarily charming and charismatic. I think every like I said,
(25:28):
everyone is vulnerable, but the folks who might be a
little bit more vulnerable, certainly people who came from families
where this was the dynamic, so that trauma bonded cycle,
that equating love and chaos, the up and down roller
coaster that you think love is supposed to feel like.
That can set someone up for thinking like, oh, I'm
in another roller coaster. Of course this is love, right.
(25:49):
It's not a conscious process, but it feels familiar. It
feels like something you want to fight for, So that
can set someone up. Another thing that can set people
up is that if they're rescuers, I can fix this.
I can make this better. I need to I can.
You know, maybe I didn't do this right, maybe I
didn't do that right. I could do better. I could
do better. The narcissistic person almost becomes a project. Those
(26:09):
folks can get pilled in. People who are very forgiving
are very vulnerable to narcissistic folks, because once the narcissistic
person realizes like, I can get away with stuff in
this relationship, whatever it is, then they are sort of
they're in because they now know they can. And if
your nature is to be very forgiving or even really
optimistic and positive, that, believe it or not, can also
(26:29):
put you at risk for these relationships. And then there's
other things that could be happening in your life. Some
people find that they were more vulnerable to narcissistic folks
when they were going through a transition, coming out a
breakup and moving to a new city, between jobs, starting
a new job, starting a new school. You're maybe in
an unfamiliar routine or rhythm, you're sort of off your game.
(26:51):
That's a place where somebody comes in and starts a
whole love mom, You're so great cycle. That can definitely
sort of throw you off, and people might be more vulnerable.
People in a rush are vulnerable narcissistic people because especially
people who might feel like I feel like I need
to get married or I want to have children or
whatever it may be, that kind of clipped pace will say, oh, Okay,
(27:12):
I'm making too big a deal out of that. I'm
making too big a deal because you want it to work,
you want it to fit. So all of those things
can make people a little bit more vulnerable, But I
think at the end of the day, everyone is those
other things just sort of amp up the odds.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
And when you're in a relationship with a narcissist, you
do you feel like constantly, like what you do is
not enough, like it's just your You always feel like
you have to play kind of like catch up, like
I'm catching up and trying to make you happy constantly.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Yeah, I mean people will the thing with a narcissistic relationship,
it will never be enough. The nature of the relationship
style is they need so much validation it's called narcissistic supply,
that no one could ever provide enough to them. For
healthy old they can generate their own supply, like I
had a good day at work today, or what a
(28:05):
beautiful day it is outside, or whatever it is. They're
able to do that for themselves, so they're not looking
to other people. We all love compliments, we all love
getting a gift or something, but we don't sort of
set every set our inner barometer by that narcissistic people do,
so no one person could ever bring enough supply, and
if you try to do that, you could actually exhaust
(28:28):
yourself because the narcissistic person becomes literally a full time job.
And that's what people will say this that I just
gave my everything to this. I gave up everything in
my life. I gave up my job, I gave up
my friends. I did things on their schedule. I moved
where they wanted, I ate the way they wanted, I
looked the way they wanted. And it's never going to
be enough. So I'm like, don't even play that game.
Speaker 3 (28:48):
Now.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
You're just throwing money after money and getting absolutely nothing
for it. So that's the narcissist problem. But a lot
of people blame themselves. Well, maybe if I had been thinner,
maybe if I had been home more often, Maybe if
I'd just been friendlier, Maybe if I'd been more of this,
Maybe if I'd been more of that. And that's what
confuses the whole picture.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Is there a way to coexist if you're in a
relationship with a narcissist or like a family member or
I want to just say, like I said earlier, if
someone just doesn't bring you peace, and doesn't matter who
it is, you just you have that choice of you
know xnaying that person from your life. But is there
a way to coexist?
Speaker 2 (29:26):
I would say you got to start with realistic expectations
and radical acceptance. This isn't going to change, right. So
there's no version of this where they're going to listen
better or think you're enough, or be empathic or you know,
or not be selfish. That's just that's not a thing.
So part of it is the shift to like, Okay,
this is it. This is as good as it gets,
and recognizing the limitations of the relationship, right. And once
(29:49):
you recognize the limitations of it, you're going to stop
turning it to it for something that it's not. And
that's hard. This is your spouse, if this is your
long term partner, this is a sibling, if this is
one of your best friends. It's really hard to do
that because then a lot of people will say this
isn't even a relationship. I'm like, well, that's that's your
conversation to have. I'm telling you this is what it is.
(30:10):
And so I think that when you recognize you could
have a very limited relationship with them, you really can't
get into stuff with them. They're often baiting you and
looking for a fight. That's not good for you. See.
I always say it's almost like you just got to
keep the topics neutral, you know, when somebody once said
to me, it's like sports, news and weather. You can't
even talk about the news anymore, so you're kind of
loft with weather. So it's like weather or like, wow,
(30:33):
did you hear it's going to rain next week? Or
it's been hotter than usual, Like that's about as deep
as it's going to get. Maybe like oh, look there's
a dog in the street. I wonder whose dog that is.
Or somebody's cutting down that tree. It's just not you
can't go that deep with them. Or if you want
to keep the trains running on time, just listen to
them and not a lot.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
You know.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
I always say that a conversation with a narcissist is
like listening to a podcast about one person. They just talk,
there's no interruption. You're like, okay, hopefully it's interesting. And
so that's the reality. But it does mean that simultaneous
to that, you need your own supports. You need friends
where you can have a deep relationship, or family or
(31:12):
whoever it is, that if you have spaces where you
can go deep with people and it feels connected and good.
Those are going to really be places where you heal
and feel connected and recognize that this narcissistic relationship is
deeply limited. But recognizing that can bring a lot of grief,
especially if this is a significant person in someone's life,
like a parent or a spouse, or a sibling or
(31:35):
a long term friend. Be like, Okay, I kept trying
to make this work. You're telling me now it can't work.
In a way, I feel like I'm mentally giving up
on them but still showing up. But that's how you
get through it. I mean, because most people can't walk
away from all of these relationships. It's a luxury when
you can. So because most people can't, you do have
(31:55):
to recognize that there's going to have to be workarounds.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Yeah, recognize that it's more than likely all the time
going to be one sided. It has to be on
the surface, and you just have to kind of ask yourself,
am I willing to do this for the rest of
my life? It's really a, like we said earlier, a
personal decision because it is very, very draining, very draining.
Is there anything else that you would like to you know,
(32:19):
an important note that you'd like to add, doctor.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Well, I think that the most difficult thing that happens
to people in these relationships is a lot of self blame.
Is this my fault? Did I not try hard enough?
Is there a different way I could say this?
Speaker 3 (32:30):
No?
Speaker 2 (32:31):
The answer to that is no, it's really setting yourself
free from this. This is their personality. It's not yours,
your bad luck as you're looped into this. I understand
a lot of people love folks with these personalities. I
do too. And the other thing that confuses people is
that there are some good days. It's not bad every day.
There can be days, weeks, even months that are good.
Things are going well in the narcissistic person's life, so
(32:53):
they show up as a really nice person. It's not
that these people are all bad all the time, and
that's what creates the confusion, because go south, it goes
south quick and it's mean, and then they might come
back again. But what they'll never do is take accountability
or apologize. We all have bad days, and we all
have days we don't always say the best thing. But
a healthy person will say that was not okay, I
(33:15):
am very sorry. I mean, I have my excuses, but
at the end of the day, I did not treat
you well, I am sorry, and they take responsibility and
then they don't do it again. It's all understandable, but
with a narcissistic person, they'll never be that accountability, which
is why a lot of people blame themselves. And these
relationships can really do a number on people. So healing
is a real thing, and whether that's to therapy or
(33:36):
other support groups are just doing your own work on you,
it is, but it's above all else recognizing these personalities
rarely change significantly enough to make a difference for you.
So it's really going to be about sort of shifting
your expectations and fostering other parts of your life.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
Wow, thank you so much, doctor Romney. Honestly, I enjoyed
this conversation very much. I learned a lot, and I
know that my listeners did as well. I think we've
all encountered one at least once in our life, and
if you haven't, now you can listen to the pod
and just kind of recognize it. Is there anywhere else?
I mean, you have your podcast right navigating Narcissism? Is
(34:13):
there anywhere else that they can find you? My listeners
so they can hear a little bit more about narcissism.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Yeah, so definitely come, but also iHeart come to the
podcast Navigating Narcissism. I also have for people who really
do want to focus on healing, I have a healing
program and if you go to my website doctor Romedy
dot com and I'm sure you have the links, you
can go and check that out because it's something on
a monthly program and there's workshops and questions and answer
sessions and journal prompts and meditations, so there's a lot
(34:40):
of stuff that people can work with to sort of
help on their healing process. And if you do go
to my website, you'll see I have many more resources, books,
other recommendations, and I have a YouTube channel where we
post new content every day, so it's always evolving and changing,
so there's always information you can get there as well.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
I love that. I'm definitely going to be checking. I
will thank you so much you guys. I hope you
enjoyed this episode. And before we go, we always have
our motivational quote, So the quote for today is, if
you are a giver and you have a big heart,
(35:18):
to be truly happy, you must learn when to let go. Naturally,
you're going to care when you shouldn't, you're going to
stay longer than you should, and you're going to give
when you have nothing. Know when to stop and let
things be. That is a quote. I don't know who
needs to hear that, but I definitely needed that in
my life quite a bit. I've learned that with obstacles
(35:39):
and things that I've had to face. So anyhow, doctor Rominey,
thank you so much for being on. Thank you for
your time, thank you for everything I am. You guys
have no idea how I feel right now. I just
feel enlightened, but thank you. And again, thank you everyone
for listening. And I will catch you on the next
episode of Cheeks and Chill. Los kiro do you need
(36:05):
advice on love, relationships, health emails? I'm so excited to
share with you that my Cheeky's and Chill podcast will
have an extra episode drop each week. I'll be answering
all your questions.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
Just leave me a voice message betters on my midday.
All you have to do is go to speak pipe
dot com slash Cheeky's and Chill podcasts and record your questions.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
I can't wait to hear from you. This is a
production of iHeartRadio and the Michaeldura podcast Network. Follow us
on Instagram at Michael Doura Podcasts and follow me Cheeky's
That's c h i q u i s. For more
podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
(36:49):
wherever you listen to your favorite podcast, and check us
out on YouTube.
Host
Chiquis
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