March 26, 2024 • 38 mins
In many ways, F1 is more like a chess game than a straight-out race to the finish line, but to appreciate this, Michael will need to understand the complexities behind the team's strategic thinking. We invited LMDh engineer and ex-F1 race engineer Blake Hinsey (AKA Brrrake) to help break things down for us.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Tony. Michael, I was thinking for this episode, let's go
with Plan D but reverse points three and four, skip
over five, finishing with two.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
How does that sound? Please stop talking.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Break from My Heart Podcast one on one Studios and
Sports Illustrated Studios.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
This is choosing sides.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
One.
Speaker 4 (00:33):
Wow Wow, talk to me goose.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Blake, welcome, give us a little bit of insight of
your career journey, who you are and what you do today.
Speaker 4 (00:48):
My name is Blake Kinsey, former F one performance engineer
turned content creator White Size Chop.
Speaker 5 (00:55):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
So Michael Tony.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Today, with the help from our amazing expert Blake Kinsey,
I will put forward to you that the absolute best
kind of F one fan you can be is a
game strategist. That racing strategy is the most fascinating thing
that I think you can imagine, And it's just the
right prism for you to approach you F one fandom.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Okay, Well, I believe you and I trust you, but
you can't control what's in my heart.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Well we'll say about that.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
Oh, if you want to watch a Formula one race
and understand what's going on, you have two options. You
can watch the race lap by lap and observe what's
happening and say it wasn't that great. But one of
the best things about Formula one is the suspense, and
(01:45):
a lot of people get a lot of satisfaction of
having an understanding of how the game can unfold and
the variables, and they want to know what's going to
happen next because they're probably watching it with their friend
and it's like, watch out for Carlos, here's he needs
to stop soon for a new times And without that
kind of context, you kind of sitting there thinking what's
going to happen next. I think Formula one very much
(02:07):
has elements of chess, especially when you consider strategy. You
know you can have a plan and if somebody does
a different move and you do not react to that move,
you can end up at a disadvantage and it forces
your hand and it can put you in a difficult spot.
You know that you may not have all the information
you need to make that decision. But do you make
a pit stop to cover that car or do you
(02:28):
stay out and stick to plan A? Which one pays off?
Speaker 1 (02:31):
I keep hearing all this talk about race strategy, Plan A,
Plan B, Plan C is an F one A race
start here, finish here doesn't seem very complicated to me.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
So yes, if one is a race, start here, finish here,
But there's so much that happens in between that formation
lap and that checkered flag, which is the flag that
gets waived when they cross the finish line. It's also
so much more than just the driver. So during F
one weekends you will hear the commentators or on checks,
but it's like myself say things like, oh, probably going
to be expecting our one or two stop strategy, or
(03:03):
we've taken the data from the previous race last year
and we've got a better understanding of where we're going.
You're gonna hear a lot of that. And the strategies
are very much tied to things like tire compound choices,
the different racetracks, the weather forecast, and we all dedicate
a whole episode and dive deeper into the tires.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Please, I can't wait. That episode is where the rubber
meets the road.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Out moving swiftly on. There's also things during the race
weekend that you can't foresee for so there's these unforseeable
things like did we have a crash, do we have
a safety cart, do we have a virtual safety cart.
Is the weather completely different than what we expected? You'll
see during the free practice sessions or quality. Maybe it's
you know, sunshine and hot weather, and then for the
(03:48):
race on Sunday it's your rain and cloudy and gloomy.
Teams could also have a bad pit stop strategy. Something
in the wheel gun could have blocked in and they
don't have a two or three second pit stop, but
they have a four, five, six, seven picks up again
which flrows everything out the window.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Ricardo is sat there waiting. Did he make the call,
did the team make the call? Whoever made the call?
The tires weren't ready.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
So there's a myriad of things that come into play.
The other thing to note is that the head of
the team strategy and their whole team are sometimes planning months,
if not sometimes actually years in advance in terms of
what this race is going to look like. They know.
The idea for the strategy team is that when they
land on a Wednesday or Thursday for the race, they
(04:32):
know what their strategy is or what their strategy options
are going to be.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
I have some thoughts, yeah, but my first question is
you said the head of strategy does that mean there's
multiple people devoted to the game strategy.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
Yeah, so Formula one teams have several strategists. There is
a person who is responsible for, you know, taking all
the information you have, you know, assistant strategists that are
looking at a specific car or looking at specific competitor's
car in relation to you, and they're helping that person
gather all the information they need. You're also taking information
(05:08):
that the drivers talking to the race engineer. The race
engineer is asking the driver about can these tires do
five more laps? Because despite all the data in the world,
we do not have particularly good metrics to say, hey,
can these tires do five more laps? You literally have
to ask the human behind the wheel, and all that
information gets fed into the strategist and they will make
(05:29):
a call. Very often with most teams, the team principle,
especially for when there's a decision which could have a
negative impact on the other car. You present those concisely
to the team principle on the pitwall and they say yes,
go ahead or no, I don't want that as an outcome.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Right.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
The idea of the ability to predict what happens in
Formula One in a race in terms of a strategy
is absolutely down to very high levels of uncertainty. The
thing that you do not know, particularly with any certainty,
is how the tires will behave during the race.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
How can you possibly drive this car with the tire
in that condition?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
And if you're on the roads and a policeman sor
pull you over.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
To get really geeky, you talk about something called a
open air simulation where you basically take your expectations of
the lap times that the tire is likely to do
as a function of its age, and you run through
a bunch of simulations like what if we stop on
this lap, but if we stop on lip lap?
Speaker 2 (06:26):
What if you fit this tire?
Speaker 4 (06:27):
You run a bunch of simulations and you say, what
is the fastest way to the end of this race?
And that kind of tells you a good starting point.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
One of the strategists once said, we're looking at one
hundred thousand versions of permutations possible. We can't gain all
of them, but we've got based on our experience and
our knowledge, we've got a pretty good idea of what
are those top ten, top fifty permutations that we should
be spending energy and time on.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
I guess they just want to feel like they're not
surprised exactly.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Yeah, so when they're looking by the way, I mean,
this feels important to say, but kind of makes sense
when they're looking at all of this state and they're
not sat there anymore crunching it pen a piece of paper.
But then they're using all of these incredible simulators to
simulate all the different options available at them. But that
also leads to why we have so many tech partners
in Formula one, the likes of Cognizant and Salesforce and
(07:15):
you name it, because they help these teams aggregate all
of that data. So I think that's also why we
have more data analysts in Formula one today than we
used to back in the day.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Yeah, I can only imagine eighty years ago.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
That wasn't the case.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
That wasn't the case. There was probably much more of
what I'm talking about. Here's the keys, go as fast
as you can.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
You know I'm going to say this, but you bring
up a phenomenal test, which is I was once asked
where does the driver put the key once they get
into the car. And the fun fact is fact, even
though it sounds logical, I don't think I've ever heard
anyone actually tell me this Formula one doesn't have a key,
because it takes four or five people to actually kickstart
(07:54):
a Formula one, in turn the car, and to turn
it on.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
I didn't assume the car was turned on with some
or in back of munich. Or you couldn't even have
like a lucky rabbit's foot on your keychain because it'd
be too much weight.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Too much way that you do have drivers that stick
a picture of their wives or okay, the Virgin Mary.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
I don't know if I'd want to be looking at
my wife at two hundred and twenty miles an hour,
I might it might be better to look at the
Virgin Mary.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Time.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
You've gathered some data about your car. You understand what
you think is likely to happen with the hard, medium
and soft compound if you fit them during the race,
and you've made some predictions about how they'll behave. But
there's a range to those characteristics. You've also, in preparation
of your strategy, made assumptions of how your competitors will
(08:44):
behave in the race in terms of their tires, and
then add the uncertainty that you have about your own car.
Couple that with the uncertainty of your competitor's car, and
then you predict that you go into the race by
lap five. Very often your entire stre agive plan is
blown out of the window, and then it becomes about
operational prowess reading stuff that's outside of the data, reading
(09:08):
the context, or most accurately or most correctly extrapolating from
the data set that you have that's been completely destroyed
that you thought is correct, it's now completely wrong. The
ability to make observations about stuff that's happening on a
sector bi sector basis, not a lap by lap basis.
Look at how other people are having how is how
(09:30):
is the other team behaving on the medium tire because
they've been on it for two laps and that might
be the right tire to be on right now. Did
you observe that and did you make that note that
it's you know, the medium tire is actually you know what,
it's a lot better than we thought it was before
the race. The strategy is now changed in a complete
different dimension. You also have other variables, like what happens
when the safety car comes out. Teams at every point
(09:53):
they let's say you've got your original plan and you've
had a little bit of change, the tires are behaving differently,
so you've adjusted your plan. You've also got to say,
I've made all these adjustments, but now what happens if
we have a safety car in two laps? What do
we do? Don't you don't wait for the safety car
to happen and make the decision. You also have to say,
if it's a safety car, what are we doing in
(10:14):
the next five laps, and continually update that as your
strategy plan evolves, because those are the kind of things
like you know, when there's a safety car, your pit
stop loses you left time, but you might give up
track position, and do you take that or not? Can
you can you go to the end from that stop?
Do you have to make two stops if you stop here?
(10:34):
It's all of it is hinged on uncertainty, and it's
reacting to that. Strategy is fascinating completely, and it's the
fascinating bit which makes the sport enjoyable is the chaos
that you have in the strategy.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
I'm gonna also rephrase game strategy as overthinking. I mean,
I feel like, are they giving room for the athlete
to drive the car and feel.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
It you know what.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
That's actually one of my favorite things about the sport
is at what point do you stop strategizing and planning
and do you just race or do you figure out
like this is what we have, like go for it?
And at what point also do you trust the driver
versus what's happening. So you'll see people on the.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Pit will say, is any one else report in rain?
Speaker 3 (11:17):
We're expecting rain, and the driver's like, there's rain coming
down on my helmet and my visor. What you're talking about,
we're expecting rain, the rain is happening, sounds like it's
just you and supporting the rain.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
I suspect it might be the sweat.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
And that is a trust that gets built over time
before between the race engineer and the actual driver. The
other component of that that the race engineer knows is
is this a rookie driver or is this a driver
been driving for ten to fifteen years. The reality is
if it's a driver that's been driving for ten fifteen years,
you trust their gut instinct and what they're telling you
from what they're seeing. But that's also part of the communication.
So to your point, actually, the race engineer is the
(11:50):
only person really that talks to the driver, and the
driver knows who is giving him that information. But behind
the race engineer there's a myriad and a myriad of people. Sure,
one important thing that's actually also somewhat tied to the
cost cap is you can't bring the entire team to
the race weekend, so you generally have those five six
people on the pitwall. Then in the garage you've got
(12:11):
a bunch more engineers who are data analysts and strategists
and looking at what the data that they're getting on
their computers. But then there's a lot of people back
at what they call quote unquote which sounds really fancy,
mission control. Most of those teams are back in the
UK and they look at all the info that's gathered
and then they send that back to the people on
(12:32):
track or on the pitwall. But here's also the interesting
thing is you both need the people who are removed
from the race and the people on the pitwall and
the driver because you want the people who are removed
from everything that are able to take a step back
and go wait, wait, hold on a minute. We have
experience with this racetrack, we have experience with this web forecast.
This is what it's teaching us. Then you've got the
(12:52):
people at the track and go no, no, circumstances have changed,
and then you've got the actual driver. There's a benefit
to having those people remote, Tony.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
I'm getting a message in my earpiece here from mission control.
They want us to pause for some advertisements.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Roger that we'll be.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Right back.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
And back from our break and diving right into the
strategy episode.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
I'm just not as much. I don't I'm not buying
in as much to game strategy. It's not that you're
not doing a good job convincing someone. It's just the
athlete brain in me is saying you've got to just
let these drivers react and race and do what they
do best.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
But you've just said the magical word, which is react.
So to your point, that driver is not alone on
the track. They're there with nineteen other racers, and so
they're not just reacting to the plan and what they
think is going to be the best race strategy, but
they're also having to look at what the other hey
their teammates, is going to do, but also what the
(13:51):
other drivers. So it's also about understanding the strategies of
the nine other teams, something that I had never realized
there are people who sold job or a big chunk
of their job is listening to all of the other
team radios.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
That'd be fun, that's fine, but you also know that
someone's listening to your radio.
Speaker 4 (14:08):
Yeah, all the teams can hear all the driver's radio
while they're on the circuit, you know, if they're talking
about some specific you know, set up stuff in the garage.
Once their cars are plugged into the umbilical we call them,
which transfers all the data. You can't hear the intercom then,
but when the drivers are on the track, you can
hear everything, and you will often hear other teams talking
in code.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Brabo Zito seven on bliss, Brabo Zito seven on.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
We're on Plan A, we're on Plan F.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
It's too late for Plan G. Take this work.
Speaker 4 (14:38):
And sometimes you have to ask the driver very directly.
You know, there's no prescripted ways to ask how's this?
And you say, how's this tire behaving?
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Would you like to have a new medium to go
through the traffic or prefer new heart question?
Speaker 4 (14:53):
And the driver has to say, this tire is destroyed.
It's five laps old. The front right tire is gone.
You can't hide that from your competitors.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Come on, there's got to be some disinformation being thrown around.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
Sometimes you can have a little bit of disinformation in
terms of pitstop dummy calls.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
So you know how when they come out for the
pit stops, everyone's already in place and there's about twenty
and it's a fair amount of people. It's twenty people
get ready to do a pit stop. But sometimes you
will hear on the radio saying stay put, stay puts,
don't move, don't move. The idea for that is they're
not giving any warning that they're about to send their
driver into box, right, so they're asking the rest of
(15:30):
the team in the garage to not look like they're
getting ready, and so that's part of it. I just
think it's so fun. Same with the drivers, they'll say
hold it, hold it, hold it, and at the last
minute the box box box.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Box, I stay okay, just got it.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
There's a little bit of that, But honestly, teams struggle
sometimes to tell the truth and get everything right. They're
not gonna play too many games and risk that going wrong.
And like, oh, we were just joking. I thought we
talked about that in the.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Meeting, I was at the entry man in trouble.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
Big risk.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Yeah, I mean it would be really fun to hear
the communication between an NFL football coach and the quarterback.
And that's what this feels like. Yes and f One
one of my favorite parts of the whole thing, besides
trying to figure out what S, M and H meant
thanks to all the was the was the radio communication
(16:27):
and now I am a communication major important to me
and it's very important that people in my life are
good communicators, not just emotional communicators, actual words.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
What do you want?
Speaker 1 (16:39):
Clarity? And that is so important at this level because
you're going twohundred miles.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
An hour to the point here where you don't just
it's not with your intonation that you guess that it's
a question, but they actually fell out.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
You do five more laps question question.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
I love that. The other thing that's interesting military.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
Teams have spent time with experts that are from military
backgrounds focusing on communication protocols and loops, so that you know,
the idea being say the most information you can and
the fewest words with no ambiguity in your message.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
So boks, now books box, Now, how's the ballots?
Speaker 4 (17:19):
How's the ballots, how's the balance, every touch you know,
and then the engineer knows what to do with that.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Okays?
Speaker 4 (17:24):
Did the wealth of information and context you get from
that is very clear. So that's that's going back to
the point of you know, the driver and engineer speaking
a language. And that's not only that, that's clear communication
between the driver and engineer. To add a little bit
more context to that, when when let's say, my old
job was performance engineer, and my job was to feed
(17:44):
the race engineer with very specific information about the driver's
performance and the car's performance. The race engineer also needs
to talk to the strategist, He needs to talk to
the control systems engineer, the tire technician who's preparing the tires.
So if I'm going to tell my race engineerage, I
don't have two minutes to tell a message that's a
lap and a half. I'm going to tell him whatever
(18:05):
message I need to tell him in less than five seconds.
Questions have to be clear, Statements have to be clear.
The brakes are on fire, stop the car now is
a very clear message. You know that. Those are the
kind of things. So the breake calipers are over the
critical threshold. We have to do something now, you know,
that's a that's a that's a very critical message that
you need to be clear and concise intonation clarity.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Well, if you're Ferrari, you actually say question.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Can you do ten more laps with your set question?
Speaker 4 (18:34):
You know, here's here's a good thing. Talking about communication,
Ferrari get a lot of abuse for when you hear
the race engineer apply to the driver, the driver will
ask the race engineer question, I.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Think the fuck?
Speaker 4 (18:46):
You know. The race engineer says.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Good, check out, okay, copy that we are taking it.
Speaker 4 (18:51):
And people have made a meme about that. But that
is a spectacular message. That message says I've heard you,
I've understood the question, and I'm asking the people who
are experts at that thing to look into that thing
for you on it. You know, because if you ignore
the driver, the drivers driving around one hundred percent flat
out steam coming out of the ears, did engine you
hear me?
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Was my message? Clear?
Speaker 4 (19:12):
So we're checking and usually you know, the mean misses
out when they come back know everything's fine, no, no, no,
and then the car catches on fire. No no, no.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
Sounds like race engineers would make phenomenal husbands. I've heard you.
I'm actioning your request. I'll be right back.
Speaker 4 (19:30):
I'm choosing to ignore you now.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
At least you know what's happening.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
I would assume drivers are not encouraged to text to
text and drive.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Not expected to check your emails during the race.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
I've said a lot of emails while driving. I hate
I hate to know.
Speaker 5 (19:47):
We had another thing. We hope our listeners will not
take an example of from Michael.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
The thing that I love about all of this is
most people's first language is in English.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Right.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
Everyone just speaks bad English and everything gets lost in
communication and translation. And it's kind of wild that these
drivers are expected to make decisions on communication that the
beat of a second.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Do they all agree to use English just because it's
the most universal, or do they have to?
Speaker 3 (20:15):
They have to Two reasons for that. One is broadcast rights,
so that everyone who tunes in can actually get it
in this what they call the default language.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Which is English.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
I believe the two accepted most widely accepted languages across
the paddock is actually English, French and Italian a lot
because of Ferrari.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Right.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
But as we discussed, hasantoness Andomobile is actually a French federation,
So French is a big you know, a big, big
language throughout the paddock.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
As well, even like communication. Yeah, this human component is
so important in this sport. Yes, that's pretty cool. Yes,
that's pretty cool. You know in the sport I come
from tennis. The coach they're now allowed to coach. That's
a new and they're kind of just they're kind of
going like move forward, you know, they do the thing
(21:02):
with their hand or it's like back up. But it's
like it's like Caveman communicating. You listen to an F
one race and it's like they have secret codes they've
met on what plan this means? You know, it's at
such a heightened level. I think if we were all
honest with ourselves, we would admit that when we drive
(21:22):
our cars and talk on the phone, we're bad at both.
I'm bad on the phone and I'm bad driving or
I'm worse, like it's made me worse. Maybe not a
bad driver on the phone, but I'm not as a tune.
And these drivers are driving competitive professionally for money two
hundred miles an hour and having a very direct, quick
(21:45):
conversation with somebody.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
It's a skill. The ability to drive a racing car
at two hundred plus miles an hour, you know, insane
cornering and breaking forces on the body, feeling what's happening.
They're physically exerting themselves in there, perceiving what the car
is doing and how the car is behaving, and then
they're thinking of something else that the engineer asked them
about a corner ago, replying to that while still continually
(22:10):
processing all that information as they're going around the track.
And we refer to that as bandwidth or CPU. That
a driver has. A driver that's able to drive quickly,
perceive what the car is doing, be able to tell
an engineer what the car is doing if they're asked,
and then also engage in a conversation about something else
(22:31):
is happening. Drivers that have a high bandwidth or high
big CPU, they can do all of that. Some drivers
might struggle a little bit at first. For example, I
talked to Liam Lawson the other day about his first
time driving the Alpha TOWERI and he told me that
he spent the entire time between when he knew that
(22:51):
he was going to drive the Alpha Tower car until
he got into the car talking to the engineers about
the switches and settings, an operation of the steering wheel
in the car.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
Can you learn that? Is that a skill that you
can acquire? You don't, or you do? You come to
the table with that skill.
Speaker 4 (23:08):
I think you learn it once you get really good
at the driving the car fast bit, your CPU load
reduces and then you have more capacity to take on
board other things. But we've even seen max or staping
at times. Don't tell me lat of times. Leave me alone.
I need to get to the end.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Please stop talking about it. The breaking.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
This is why I can't wait. And this is cheeky,
but this is why I can't wait for us to
have actually more women on the grid because they're phenomenal
at multitasking, and so I'm just like, if men are
capable of doing that, just you wait until the women
who are so used to multitasking come there and who
have great communication skills.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Well, I was going to add a little communication dig there,
but that's something we'll say for a season three.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Yeah, we'll see.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Yeah, you said like one stop, two stops. That's referring
to pit stops, correct, And why is that such a
big difference because the pit stops I've seen a Formula
one are under two seconds.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
So there's two ways to look at the pit stop.
There's the pit stop which is the changing of the wheels.
Nowadays we don't refuel and we don't change anything else
unless there's a crash and you need to change the
wing as well.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
So it we're just because they're not allowed to refuel.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Right, not allowed to refuel. That was banned and brought
back then band the gap mostly for safety reasons. Just
we had some actually yos for staff and Max with
Stappen's father got into a terrible pit stop crash refueling
moment which wasn't pretty.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Flash Oh my goodness me, Well now, just let's keep calm.
Speaker 5 (24:33):
Didn't stop him from sending his son.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Didn't wait, So you're racing on the same tank of
gas the whole time.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
Yes, And you bring up another point, which is when
we're thinking about the permutations of the strategy, you need
to account for the car in fact, where the car
gets light and light. So that's crazy, which is why,
by the way, if you've ever looked when they do
their times during quality or free practice, sess they're doing
it on a much lighter tank because they're only using
what they need for that quality session, which means also
(25:06):
that the car is lighter, which means they can go
a little bit faster.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
I mean, I've looked at these cars. I don't see
how they could fit enough gas to go three hundred
kilometers at that at that highest speed.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
It's interesting and I'm we will need experts to help
us on this.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Finally.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Nice to have an expert around.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:24):
Fuel strategy was one of my old jobs when I
was a performance engineer at the track. So my job
was to say how much fuel do we need to
put in the car? Are we going to have to
save fuel during this race and communicate that clearly with
the engineering drivers say, hey, we filled the tanks and
you're going to have to lift and coasts at the
end of every straight for the start of the race
to save fuel, you know, and that's a really important thing.
(25:46):
Lifting and coasting is a very efficient way to save
fuel without losing lap time. And that's your goal. Go
as least slow as possible, right, So you know that
is fine, and then you say, right, well, we're saving
fe fue following this car. You know, we're not going
as quickly as we thought, We're not burning as much fuel.
How does that impact our fuel strategy? Okay, do we
(26:07):
you know what, We're going to not have to save
fuel later in the race as a result of following
this car or something else has happened. Or let's say again,
going back to the slow car. Let's say that you're
five years ago in your car at the back of
the field. You're not going to do the entire race distance.
You might finish a lap down so you can take
literally one whole lapse worth of fuel out.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Of the car.
Speaker 4 (26:30):
Do you do that or not? Because if there's a
safety car, you might be back on the lead lap,
but you will have saved fuel under the safety car,
so there's all sorts of kuld it would have should
us in the very rarely I think in modern Formula
one can you be a hero by being aggressive on
fuel because there is no refueling.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
You also need to ensure that you finished a race
with at least one litter of fuel in your tank
so that the FIA that bring back the FIA can
test to ensure that they're using the right kind of
fuel that they will allow you to use. If you
do not finish the race and you don't still have
a liter of fuel your race is done for.
Speaker 5 (27:06):
Right, lots of pickup on the way, lots of pickup
slow on the way in safe you safe?
Speaker 1 (27:11):
That's very cool. Yeah, insane planning to have it be
that way.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
Going back to the pit stops though, yes, two aspects
to know about the pit stops. You've got the actual
pit stop changing of the tires, which that is generally
sub two seconds, that's what they aim for. I think
the fastest here was one point eight second.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Change all four wheels in one point eight seconds. Can
we stop for a second just to appreciate that.
Speaker 5 (27:34):
Why don't we actually stop for one point eight seconds?
So ready and we're done.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Boom.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
Then you've got the actual pit stop time, which is
going into the pit lane driving slower because you have
to obviously load in coming out, and that's round fifteen
to twenty seconds. So there's two ways of looking at
So when you think about a one pit stop or
two pit stop, it also depends on which tie you've
got on. You have to change your tires at once
and do soft compound or hard compound or medium compound.
(28:04):
And there's a whole conversation that we will have about
that in the tire episode or to do it, but
you basically map out that on a soft tire they
will last less long, but you will go faster than
on a hard compound tire. And so this is some
part of the game theoryus, do we do soft tires
where we can faster, but we're definitely gonna have to
do two pit stops to then change them on to
(28:25):
something else, Or do we start with hard tires where
they're going to last a lot longer, but we're gonna
go not as fast. And so you're trying to game
also what everyone else is doing, which is why when
you watch a race you will see next every name
if they've got a h or if they've got an
s an M to tell you what tires they are.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
Right, Well, yeah, it's a lot.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
It a lot.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
I do wonder there's so many more people personnel staff
than the driver. Yeah, but the driver actually has in
this case his hands on the wheel. Is the driver
just a pawn in this game? I mean, clearly, these
are super ego athletes who believe they should be at
(29:10):
the helm of a rocket ship. Ye, so you got
to let them do their thing. But basically you're saying
the game strategist is like, hey, do this turn left here?
You're pitting here. So if F one is a chess game,
then these drivers are just the pawns. Is that what
you're saying, No, I let me just check in with
the game strategists and I'll do whatever they tell me.
Speaker 4 (29:31):
That is a great, great question, because at the end
of the day, the driver can say I would like
to do forty laps on this soft tire. It's like, hey, buddy,
we've looked at your teammates or your competitors. They're doing
fifteen laps on that tire. You could do sixteen. If
you do twenty laps on this tire, you're going to
(29:52):
lose four positions done. You know that those are the
kind of conversations and through time you build up poor
between the driver and engineer. And at the same time,
also the drivers have a reasonable understanding of expectations and
then leave it to the engineers to help refine those
expectations as they learn more during a race or during
(30:14):
a season. But yeah, the drivers for sure have ultimately
say and very many times you will do things that
don't make sense because the data says this isn't possible.
The driver says, no, don't worry, I can definitely do
five more laps. You trust the driver on those situations
very often, but they don't know everything.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
I actually don't know of any other sport where the
main athlete celebrates the rest of their team as much
as they do. In Formula One, you will often hear
even Max wist happened that gets a lot of hate.
More or less every race, at the end of every race,
will say.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
What an unbelievable today. That was so enjoyable to drive.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
Thank you to the team. That was a great pull,
that was phenomenal, strategy, strategy, well executed.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
I think up really proud. That was unbelievable.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
And he's not the only one. Lewis Hamilton is the same.
Charle Leclair carlor signs. They all generally, when they have
a really good race, you will hear them say phenomenally
well executed, that was the great call. Or when it's bad,
they'll say, hey, we need to rewhoop and we talk,
you know, and talk about this. This wasn't good. I
think it's one of those that we can't. You can
build the fastest car in the world if you don't
(31:22):
have the right driver. Great you've got a fastest car
that's not going anywhere. You can have the best strategists
in the world that can play out the whole thing.
But if the race engineer isn't taking the right decision
and communicating that to the driver in the right time,
and the drivers and executing, then what's the point? And
I think it's that connection between all of those pieces
that just makes this sports so as big Tag, even
(31:42):
the logistical team are Formula one if the car parts
are not arriving on time. Fun fact, all teams can
only start unloading all of their cargoes and opening everything
once everyone has received their cargo. So if there's a
team that's delayed, everyone is delayed, which again I like,
it's like you know, and they'll talk about.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
It, you forgot to pack the steering wheel. Shit, the
whole race.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
Is canceled and you will Actually, I know this is
not the strategist and this is more the engineers, but
the engineers and the mechanics will often talk about the
camaraderie amongst the teams. They're like, on the track, we
take it all out on the track. We are not friends,
we are folks. We are enemies. One of us is winning.
Everyone else is not winning. But if you miss a
hammer or a screw driver or component, yeah we're going
(32:29):
to help you because if we were in that situation.
So there's a camaraderie there amongst the teams, and I
think you can see that on the team as well.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Starting to feel like a huge team sport.
Speaker 4 (32:37):
Oh my god, that's so perfect. And it is a
team sport. And it goes back to the first part
of the conversation we had. You have the driver, you
have the car, and you have the team. Operationally, all
three of those things have to be in harmony. Otherwise,
the best driver in the world, with the best car
in the world on the worst strategy will not win.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
I'll tell you what else isn't going to win a
podcast with no funding.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
Yes, let's break restponsors and we'll be right back. And
we're back.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
So this seems obvious, but game strategy is about decisions
made during the race.
Speaker 4 (33:14):
No, yeah, there's there's there's a whole like, yeah, that's
really good because when we talk about strategy, we're talking
about stuff in isolation. But you have other strategic considerations.
For example, teams are limited by the number of power
units or you know the engine and electrical systems together.
What if you could find half a second lap of performance,
(33:35):
but you had to fit five more engines. And when
you fit a certain amount of engines outside of re allocation,
you start taking grid penalties. So there's definitely times in
which you're considering that. Even bigger strategies and considering the
broader scope of the season is developments. For example, which
car upgrades are you going to bring? Where do you
(33:55):
want to bring a new car package to a weekend
when you only get one practice session, or let's say
the first half of the season is all tracks that
want a lot of downforce. Are you going to develop
a wing for your car that's low downforce in the
first part of the season. Now you're waiting until you
need that low downforce wing. You don't need your huge
(34:16):
wing until Monaco and that covers you for Singapore. You
don't need your super low wing until Spa or Manza,
which covers you for the other one of those. But yeah,
So understanding the season as a whole, understanding what's important
when also influences stuff that's happening at a factory in
terms of the design and build of these cars. Rather
(34:37):
than what's happening on the weekend. And that's a whole
different strategy and a whole different caniforms.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
So not just hey, pitstop and right now. They're also
looking at overall everything building the team. It's getting the
right driver.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
Blah blah blah, everythink that's like a data point they
are looking at and bringing in. Teams are always looking
to which is what I love, Always looking at the
next thing. They're like, cook, or we've got we've got
this car, what does next year's car look like? And
that's what was interesting by this year is twenty twenty two.
There was the biggest overhaul of changes and the car
was fundamentally different than anything that we'd seen before. And
(35:15):
some people, some teams were going to you know, come
out the door swinging and have a phenomenal teams and
phenomenal car, and some teams were going to come out
and go, oh, we missed it, like pretty badly. But
that's what was exciting about this season in twenty twenty
three because everyone was able to go back to the
drawing board and go, Okay, cool, we know what works,
we know what doesn't. If something did work, let's focus
on that more but it is always like a forward thinking,
(35:37):
future thinking sports.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
You know, none of this communication can happen if the
internet is lousy. Oh yeah, that's is that where that
fall under the logistic party.
Speaker 3 (35:48):
I see getting the cable set up cables at this
at these races are insane. They the cable guys and
then mostly men. But the cable teams arrive on the
Monday day before like the next day.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
They arrive Monday, but they give you a window and
they show up between twelve and.
Speaker 3 (36:06):
They show up at seven am and they're laying the cables.
Speaker 5 (36:09):
I wish cable would logistics is everything?
Speaker 2 (36:12):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (36:13):
All this determined? Woulds?
Speaker 3 (36:15):
I'll be the judgment judge. Yeah, if you think the
cable management system we have got going here is is
you know.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
Tricky and the law you wait, yeah, I do find
it interesting to learn about F one strategy. A lot
of this is new to me. There's a lot of factors,
ins and outs that never would have occurred to me.
And I'm realizing now going forward, maybe we could have
a new strategy. You just tell me what to do
and I'll do it. I'll be a good little George
(36:43):
Russell and I'll go pit whenever you want me to.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
So we're going back to plan A. Then I'm going
to need communication.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
I'm going to need a yes, back to plan A
non question, non statement.
Speaker 5 (37:06):
This has been Choosing Sides f one, a production of
Sports Illustrated Studios, iHeart Podcasts and one oh one Studio Podcasts.
The show is hosted by Michael Costa and Tony Cowan Brown.
This episode was edited, scored, and sound designed by senior
producer Jojai may Thaddle. Scott Stone is the executive producer
(37:31):
and head of Audio, and Daniel Wexman is Director of
Podcast Development and Production Manager at one o one Studios.
At iHeart Podcasts, Sean Titne is our executive producer. And
a special thank you to Michelle Newman, David Glasser, and
David Hootkin from one o one Studios. For more shows
(37:52):
from iHeart Podcasts, go visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts
or wherever you get your podcasts, and whatever you do,
don't forget to rate us and tell your friends it
really does mean a lot.
Speaker 3 (38:13):
Next week, on Choosing Sides f one, the Data Analyst,
we will go into why some Formula one fans like
watching the race with not one, not two, not three,
but at least five to ten different screens open simultaneously.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
Wow yep.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
And also why some of the nerdier or shall we say,
more tech savvy fans are reverting to writing specific code
to actually help them watch and understand and ultimately enjoy
the pinnacle of motorsports to its fullest.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
What yep, that's that's too much.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
We've only got one screen like.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
Writing code to enjoy. Okay, we'll get into it, Si
Moll
Tony. Michael, I was thinking for this episode, let's go
with Plan D but reverse points three and four, skip
over five, finishing with two.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
How does that sound? Please stop talking.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Break from My Heart Podcast one on one Studios and
Sports Illustrated Studios.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
This is choosing sides.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
One.
Speaker 4 (00:33):
Wow Wow, talk to me goose.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Blake, welcome, give us a little bit of insight of
your career journey, who you are and what you do today.
Speaker 4 (00:48):
My name is Blake Kinsey, former F one performance engineer
turned content creator White Size Chop.
Speaker 5 (00:55):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
So Michael Tony.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Today, with the help from our amazing expert Blake Kinsey,
I will put forward to you that the absolute best
kind of F one fan you can be is a
game strategist. That racing strategy is the most fascinating thing
that I think you can imagine, And it's just the
right prism for you to approach you F one fandom.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Okay, Well, I believe you and I trust you, but
you can't control what's in my heart.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Well we'll say about that.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
Oh, if you want to watch a Formula one race
and understand what's going on, you have two options. You
can watch the race lap by lap and observe what's
happening and say it wasn't that great. But one of
the best things about Formula one is the suspense, and
(01:45):
a lot of people get a lot of satisfaction of
having an understanding of how the game can unfold and
the variables, and they want to know what's going to
happen next because they're probably watching it with their friend
and it's like, watch out for Carlos, here's he needs
to stop soon for a new times And without that
kind of context, you kind of sitting there thinking what's
going to happen next. I think Formula one very much
(02:07):
has elements of chess, especially when you consider strategy. You
know you can have a plan and if somebody does
a different move and you do not react to that move,
you can end up at a disadvantage and it forces
your hand and it can put you in a difficult spot.
You know that you may not have all the information
you need to make that decision. But do you make
a pit stop to cover that car or do you
(02:28):
stay out and stick to plan A? Which one pays off?
Speaker 1 (02:31):
I keep hearing all this talk about race strategy, Plan A,
Plan B, Plan C is an F one A race
start here, finish here doesn't seem very complicated to me.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
So yes, if one is a race, start here, finish here,
But there's so much that happens in between that formation
lap and that checkered flag, which is the flag that
gets waived when they cross the finish line. It's also
so much more than just the driver. So during F
one weekends you will hear the commentators or on checks,
but it's like myself say things like, oh, probably going
to be expecting our one or two stop strategy, or
(03:03):
we've taken the data from the previous race last year
and we've got a better understanding of where we're going.
You're gonna hear a lot of that. And the strategies
are very much tied to things like tire compound choices,
the different racetracks, the weather forecast, and we all dedicate
a whole episode and dive deeper into the tires.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Please, I can't wait. That episode is where the rubber
meets the road.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Out moving swiftly on. There's also things during the race
weekend that you can't foresee for so there's these unforseeable
things like did we have a crash, do we have
a safety cart, do we have a virtual safety cart.
Is the weather completely different than what we expected? You'll
see during the free practice sessions or quality. Maybe it's
you know, sunshine and hot weather, and then for the
(03:48):
race on Sunday it's your rain and cloudy and gloomy.
Teams could also have a bad pit stop strategy. Something
in the wheel gun could have blocked in and they
don't have a two or three second pit stop, but
they have a four, five, six, seven picks up again
which flrows everything out the window.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Ricardo is sat there waiting. Did he make the call,
did the team make the call? Whoever made the call?
The tires weren't ready.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
So there's a myriad of things that come into play.
The other thing to note is that the head of
the team strategy and their whole team are sometimes planning months,
if not sometimes actually years in advance in terms of
what this race is going to look like. They know.
The idea for the strategy team is that when they
land on a Wednesday or Thursday for the race, they
(04:32):
know what their strategy is or what their strategy options
are going to be.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
I have some thoughts, yeah, but my first question is
you said the head of strategy does that mean there's
multiple people devoted to the game strategy.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
Yeah, so Formula one teams have several strategists. There is
a person who is responsible for, you know, taking all
the information you have, you know, assistant strategists that are
looking at a specific car or looking at specific competitor's
car in relation to you, and they're helping that person
gather all the information they need. You're also taking information
(05:08):
that the drivers talking to the race engineer. The race
engineer is asking the driver about can these tires do
five more laps? Because despite all the data in the world,
we do not have particularly good metrics to say, hey,
can these tires do five more laps? You literally have
to ask the human behind the wheel, and all that
information gets fed into the strategist and they will make
(05:29):
a call. Very often with most teams, the team principle,
especially for when there's a decision which could have a
negative impact on the other car. You present those concisely
to the team principle on the pitwall and they say yes,
go ahead or no, I don't want that as an outcome.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Right.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
The idea of the ability to predict what happens in
Formula One in a race in terms of a strategy
is absolutely down to very high levels of uncertainty. The
thing that you do not know, particularly with any certainty,
is how the tires will behave during the race.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
How can you possibly drive this car with the tire
in that condition?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
And if you're on the roads and a policeman sor
pull you over.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
To get really geeky, you talk about something called a
open air simulation where you basically take your expectations of
the lap times that the tire is likely to do
as a function of its age, and you run through
a bunch of simulations like what if we stop on
this lap, but if we stop on lip lap?
Speaker 2 (06:26):
What if you fit this tire?
Speaker 4 (06:27):
You run a bunch of simulations and you say, what
is the fastest way to the end of this race?
And that kind of tells you a good starting point.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
One of the strategists once said, we're looking at one
hundred thousand versions of permutations possible. We can't gain all
of them, but we've got based on our experience and
our knowledge, we've got a pretty good idea of what
are those top ten, top fifty permutations that we should
be spending energy and time on.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
I guess they just want to feel like they're not
surprised exactly.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Yeah, so when they're looking by the way, I mean,
this feels important to say, but kind of makes sense
when they're looking at all of this state and they're
not sat there anymore crunching it pen a piece of paper.
But then they're using all of these incredible simulators to
simulate all the different options available at them. But that
also leads to why we have so many tech partners
in Formula one, the likes of Cognizant and Salesforce and
(07:15):
you name it, because they help these teams aggregate all
of that data. So I think that's also why we
have more data analysts in Formula one today than we
used to back in the day.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Yeah, I can only imagine eighty years ago.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
That wasn't the case.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
That wasn't the case. There was probably much more of
what I'm talking about. Here's the keys, go as fast
as you can.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
You know I'm going to say this, but you bring
up a phenomenal test, which is I was once asked
where does the driver put the key once they get
into the car. And the fun fact is fact, even
though it sounds logical, I don't think I've ever heard
anyone actually tell me this Formula one doesn't have a key,
because it takes four or five people to actually kickstart
(07:54):
a Formula one, in turn the car, and to turn
it on.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
I didn't assume the car was turned on with some
or in back of munich. Or you couldn't even have
like a lucky rabbit's foot on your keychain because it'd
be too much weight.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Too much way that you do have drivers that stick
a picture of their wives or okay, the Virgin Mary.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
I don't know if I'd want to be looking at
my wife at two hundred and twenty miles an hour,
I might it might be better to look at the
Virgin Mary.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Time.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
You've gathered some data about your car. You understand what
you think is likely to happen with the hard, medium
and soft compound if you fit them during the race,
and you've made some predictions about how they'll behave. But
there's a range to those characteristics. You've also, in preparation
of your strategy, made assumptions of how your competitors will
(08:44):
behave in the race in terms of their tires, and
then add the uncertainty that you have about your own car.
Couple that with the uncertainty of your competitor's car, and
then you predict that you go into the race by
lap five. Very often your entire stre agive plan is
blown out of the window, and then it becomes about
operational prowess reading stuff that's outside of the data, reading
(09:08):
the context, or most accurately or most correctly extrapolating from
the data set that you have that's been completely destroyed
that you thought is correct, it's now completely wrong. The
ability to make observations about stuff that's happening on a
sector bi sector basis, not a lap by lap basis.
Look at how other people are having how is how
(09:30):
is the other team behaving on the medium tire because
they've been on it for two laps and that might
be the right tire to be on right now. Did
you observe that and did you make that note that
it's you know, the medium tire is actually you know what,
it's a lot better than we thought it was before
the race. The strategy is now changed in a complete
different dimension. You also have other variables, like what happens
when the safety car comes out. Teams at every point
(09:53):
they let's say you've got your original plan and you've
had a little bit of change, the tires are behaving differently,
so you've adjusted your plan. You've also got to say,
I've made all these adjustments, but now what happens if
we have a safety car in two laps? What do
we do? Don't you don't wait for the safety car
to happen and make the decision. You also have to say,
if it's a safety car, what are we doing in
(10:14):
the next five laps, and continually update that as your
strategy plan evolves, because those are the kind of things
like you know, when there's a safety car, your pit
stop loses you left time, but you might give up
track position, and do you take that or not? Can
you can you go to the end from that stop?
Do you have to make two stops if you stop here?
(10:34):
It's all of it is hinged on uncertainty, and it's
reacting to that. Strategy is fascinating completely, and it's the
fascinating bit which makes the sport enjoyable is the chaos
that you have in the strategy.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
I'm gonna also rephrase game strategy as overthinking. I mean,
I feel like, are they giving room for the athlete
to drive the car and feel.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
It you know what.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
That's actually one of my favorite things about the sport
is at what point do you stop strategizing and planning
and do you just race or do you figure out
like this is what we have, like go for it?
And at what point also do you trust the driver
versus what's happening. So you'll see people on the.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Pit will say, is any one else report in rain?
Speaker 3 (11:17):
We're expecting rain, and the driver's like, there's rain coming
down on my helmet and my visor. What you're talking about,
we're expecting rain, the rain is happening, sounds like it's
just you and supporting the rain.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
I suspect it might be the sweat.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
And that is a trust that gets built over time
before between the race engineer and the actual driver. The
other component of that that the race engineer knows is
is this a rookie driver or is this a driver
been driving for ten to fifteen years. The reality is
if it's a driver that's been driving for ten fifteen years,
you trust their gut instinct and what they're telling you
from what they're seeing. But that's also part of the communication.
So to your point, actually, the race engineer is the
(11:50):
only person really that talks to the driver, and the
driver knows who is giving him that information. But behind
the race engineer there's a myriad and a myriad of people. Sure,
one important thing that's actually also somewhat tied to the
cost cap is you can't bring the entire team to
the race weekend, so you generally have those five six
people on the pitwall. Then in the garage you've got
(12:11):
a bunch more engineers who are data analysts and strategists
and looking at what the data that they're getting on
their computers. But then there's a lot of people back
at what they call quote unquote which sounds really fancy,
mission control. Most of those teams are back in the
UK and they look at all the info that's gathered
and then they send that back to the people on
(12:32):
track or on the pitwall. But here's also the interesting
thing is you both need the people who are removed
from the race and the people on the pitwall and
the driver because you want the people who are removed
from everything that are able to take a step back
and go wait, wait, hold on a minute. We have
experience with this racetrack, we have experience with this web forecast.
This is what it's teaching us. Then you've got the
(12:52):
people at the track and go no, no, circumstances have changed,
and then you've got the actual driver. There's a benefit
to having those people remote, Tony.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
I'm getting a message in my earpiece here from mission control.
They want us to pause for some advertisements.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Roger that we'll be.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Right back.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
And back from our break and diving right into the
strategy episode.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
I'm just not as much. I don't I'm not buying
in as much to game strategy. It's not that you're
not doing a good job convincing someone. It's just the
athlete brain in me is saying you've got to just
let these drivers react and race and do what they
do best.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
But you've just said the magical word, which is react.
So to your point, that driver is not alone on
the track. They're there with nineteen other racers, and so
they're not just reacting to the plan and what they
think is going to be the best race strategy, but
they're also having to look at what the other hey
their teammates, is going to do, but also what the
(13:51):
other drivers. So it's also about understanding the strategies of
the nine other teams, something that I had never realized
there are people who sold job or a big chunk
of their job is listening to all of the other
team radios.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
That'd be fun, that's fine, but you also know that
someone's listening to your radio.
Speaker 4 (14:08):
Yeah, all the teams can hear all the driver's radio
while they're on the circuit, you know, if they're talking
about some specific you know, set up stuff in the garage.
Once their cars are plugged into the umbilical we call them,
which transfers all the data. You can't hear the intercom then,
but when the drivers are on the track, you can
hear everything, and you will often hear other teams talking
in code.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Brabo Zito seven on bliss, Brabo Zito seven on.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
We're on Plan A, we're on Plan F.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
It's too late for Plan G. Take this work.
Speaker 4 (14:38):
And sometimes you have to ask the driver very directly.
You know, there's no prescripted ways to ask how's this?
And you say, how's this tire behaving?
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Would you like to have a new medium to go
through the traffic or prefer new heart question?
Speaker 4 (14:53):
And the driver has to say, this tire is destroyed.
It's five laps old. The front right tire is gone.
You can't hide that from your competitors.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Come on, there's got to be some disinformation being thrown around.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
Sometimes you can have a little bit of disinformation in
terms of pitstop dummy calls.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
So you know how when they come out for the
pit stops, everyone's already in place and there's about twenty
and it's a fair amount of people. It's twenty people
get ready to do a pit stop. But sometimes you
will hear on the radio saying stay put, stay puts,
don't move, don't move. The idea for that is they're
not giving any warning that they're about to send their
driver into box, right, so they're asking the rest of
(15:30):
the team in the garage to not look like they're
getting ready, and so that's part of it. I just
think it's so fun. Same with the drivers, they'll say
hold it, hold it, hold it, and at the last
minute the box box box.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Box, I stay okay, just got it.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
There's a little bit of that, But honestly, teams struggle
sometimes to tell the truth and get everything right. They're
not gonna play too many games and risk that going wrong.
And like, oh, we were just joking. I thought we
talked about that in the.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Meeting, I was at the entry man in trouble.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
Big risk.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Yeah, I mean it would be really fun to hear
the communication between an NFL football coach and the quarterback.
And that's what this feels like. Yes and f One
one of my favorite parts of the whole thing, besides
trying to figure out what S, M and H meant
thanks to all the was the was the radio communication
(16:27):
and now I am a communication major important to me
and it's very important that people in my life are
good communicators, not just emotional communicators, actual words.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
What do you want?
Speaker 1 (16:39):
Clarity? And that is so important at this level because
you're going twohundred miles.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
An hour to the point here where you don't just
it's not with your intonation that you guess that it's
a question, but they actually fell out.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
You do five more laps question question.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
I love that. The other thing that's interesting military.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
Teams have spent time with experts that are from military
backgrounds focusing on communication protocols and loops, so that you know,
the idea being say the most information you can and
the fewest words with no ambiguity in your message.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
So boks, now books box, Now, how's the ballots?
Speaker 4 (17:19):
How's the ballots, how's the balance, every touch you know,
and then the engineer knows what to do with that.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Okays?
Speaker 4 (17:24):
Did the wealth of information and context you get from
that is very clear. So that's that's going back to
the point of you know, the driver and engineer speaking
a language. And that's not only that, that's clear communication
between the driver and engineer. To add a little bit
more context to that, when when let's say, my old
job was performance engineer, and my job was to feed
(17:44):
the race engineer with very specific information about the driver's
performance and the car's performance. The race engineer also needs
to talk to the strategist, He needs to talk to
the control systems engineer, the tire technician who's preparing the tires.
So if I'm going to tell my race engineerage, I
don't have two minutes to tell a message that's a
lap and a half. I'm going to tell him whatever
(18:05):
message I need to tell him in less than five seconds.
Questions have to be clear, Statements have to be clear.
The brakes are on fire, stop the car now is
a very clear message. You know that. Those are the
kind of things. So the breake calipers are over the
critical threshold. We have to do something now, you know,
that's a that's a that's a very critical message that
you need to be clear and concise intonation clarity.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Well, if you're Ferrari, you actually say question.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Can you do ten more laps with your set question?
Speaker 4 (18:34):
You know, here's here's a good thing. Talking about communication,
Ferrari get a lot of abuse for when you hear
the race engineer apply to the driver, the driver will
ask the race engineer question, I.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Think the fuck?
Speaker 4 (18:46):
You know. The race engineer says.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Good, check out, okay, copy that we are taking it.
Speaker 4 (18:51):
And people have made a meme about that. But that
is a spectacular message. That message says I've heard you,
I've understood the question, and I'm asking the people who
are experts at that thing to look into that thing
for you on it. You know, because if you ignore
the driver, the drivers driving around one hundred percent flat
out steam coming out of the ears, did engine you
hear me?
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Was my message? Clear?
Speaker 4 (19:12):
So we're checking and usually you know, the mean misses
out when they come back know everything's fine, no, no, no,
and then the car catches on fire. No no, no.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
Sounds like race engineers would make phenomenal husbands. I've heard you.
I'm actioning your request. I'll be right back.
Speaker 4 (19:30):
I'm choosing to ignore you now.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
At least you know what's happening.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
I would assume drivers are not encouraged to text to
text and drive.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Not expected to check your emails during the race.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
I've said a lot of emails while driving. I hate
I hate to know.
Speaker 5 (19:47):
We had another thing. We hope our listeners will not
take an example of from Michael.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
The thing that I love about all of this is
most people's first language is in English.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Right.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
Everyone just speaks bad English and everything gets lost in
communication and translation. And it's kind of wild that these
drivers are expected to make decisions on communication that the
beat of a second.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Do they all agree to use English just because it's
the most universal, or do they have to?
Speaker 3 (20:15):
They have to Two reasons for that. One is broadcast rights,
so that everyone who tunes in can actually get it
in this what they call the default language.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Which is English.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
I believe the two accepted most widely accepted languages across
the paddock is actually English, French and Italian a lot
because of Ferrari.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Right.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
But as we discussed, hasantoness Andomobile is actually a French federation,
So French is a big you know, a big, big
language throughout the paddock.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
As well, even like communication. Yeah, this human component is
so important in this sport. Yes, that's pretty cool. Yes,
that's pretty cool. You know in the sport I come
from tennis. The coach they're now allowed to coach. That's
a new and they're kind of just they're kind of
going like move forward, you know, they do the thing
(21:02):
with their hand or it's like back up. But it's
like it's like Caveman communicating. You listen to an F
one race and it's like they have secret codes they've
met on what plan this means? You know, it's at
such a heightened level. I think if we were all
honest with ourselves, we would admit that when we drive
(21:22):
our cars and talk on the phone, we're bad at both.
I'm bad on the phone and I'm bad driving or
I'm worse, like it's made me worse. Maybe not a
bad driver on the phone, but I'm not as a tune.
And these drivers are driving competitive professionally for money two
hundred miles an hour and having a very direct, quick
(21:45):
conversation with somebody.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
It's a skill. The ability to drive a racing car
at two hundred plus miles an hour, you know, insane
cornering and breaking forces on the body, feeling what's happening.
They're physically exerting themselves in there, perceiving what the car
is doing and how the car is behaving, and then
they're thinking of something else that the engineer asked them
about a corner ago, replying to that while still continually
(22:10):
processing all that information as they're going around the track.
And we refer to that as bandwidth or CPU. That
a driver has. A driver that's able to drive quickly,
perceive what the car is doing, be able to tell
an engineer what the car is doing if they're asked,
and then also engage in a conversation about something else
(22:31):
is happening. Drivers that have a high bandwidth or high
big CPU, they can do all of that. Some drivers
might struggle a little bit at first. For example, I
talked to Liam Lawson the other day about his first
time driving the Alpha TOWERI and he told me that
he spent the entire time between when he knew that
(22:51):
he was going to drive the Alpha Tower car until
he got into the car talking to the engineers about
the switches and settings, an operation of the steering wheel
in the car.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
Can you learn that? Is that a skill that you
can acquire? You don't, or you do? You come to
the table with that skill.
Speaker 4 (23:08):
I think you learn it once you get really good
at the driving the car fast bit, your CPU load
reduces and then you have more capacity to take on
board other things. But we've even seen max or staping
at times. Don't tell me lat of times. Leave me alone.
I need to get to the end.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Please stop talking about it. The breaking.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
This is why I can't wait. And this is cheeky,
but this is why I can't wait for us to
have actually more women on the grid because they're phenomenal
at multitasking, and so I'm just like, if men are
capable of doing that, just you wait until the women
who are so used to multitasking come there and who
have great communication skills.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Well, I was going to add a little communication dig there,
but that's something we'll say for a season three.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Yeah, we'll see.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Yeah, you said like one stop, two stops. That's referring
to pit stops, correct, And why is that such a
big difference because the pit stops I've seen a Formula
one are under two seconds.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
So there's two ways to look at the pit stop.
There's the pit stop which is the changing of the wheels.
Nowadays we don't refuel and we don't change anything else
unless there's a crash and you need to change the
wing as well.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
So it we're just because they're not allowed to refuel.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Right, not allowed to refuel. That was banned and brought
back then band the gap mostly for safety reasons. Just
we had some actually yos for staff and Max with
Stappen's father got into a terrible pit stop crash refueling
moment which wasn't pretty.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Flash Oh my goodness me, Well now, just let's keep calm.
Speaker 5 (24:33):
Didn't stop him from sending his son.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Didn't wait, So you're racing on the same tank of
gas the whole time.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
Yes, And you bring up another point, which is when
we're thinking about the permutations of the strategy, you need
to account for the car in fact, where the car
gets light and light. So that's crazy, which is why,
by the way, if you've ever looked when they do
their times during quality or free practice, sess they're doing
it on a much lighter tank because they're only using
what they need for that quality session, which means also
(25:06):
that the car is lighter, which means they can go
a little bit faster.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
I mean, I've looked at these cars. I don't see
how they could fit enough gas to go three hundred
kilometers at that at that highest speed.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
It's interesting and I'm we will need experts to help
us on this.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Finally.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Nice to have an expert around.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:24):
Fuel strategy was one of my old jobs when I
was a performance engineer at the track. So my job
was to say how much fuel do we need to
put in the car? Are we going to have to
save fuel during this race and communicate that clearly with
the engineering drivers say, hey, we filled the tanks and
you're going to have to lift and coasts at the
end of every straight for the start of the race
to save fuel, you know, and that's a really important thing.
(25:46):
Lifting and coasting is a very efficient way to save
fuel without losing lap time. And that's your goal. Go
as least slow as possible, right, So you know that
is fine, and then you say, right, well, we're saving
fe fue following this car. You know, we're not going
as quickly as we thought, We're not burning as much fuel.
How does that impact our fuel strategy? Okay, do we
(26:07):
you know what, We're going to not have to save
fuel later in the race as a result of following
this car or something else has happened. Or let's say again,
going back to the slow car. Let's say that you're
five years ago in your car at the back of
the field. You're not going to do the entire race distance.
You might finish a lap down so you can take
literally one whole lapse worth of fuel out.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Of the car.
Speaker 4 (26:30):
Do you do that or not? Because if there's a
safety car, you might be back on the lead lap,
but you will have saved fuel under the safety car,
so there's all sorts of kuld it would have should
us in the very rarely I think in modern Formula
one can you be a hero by being aggressive on
fuel because there is no refueling.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
You also need to ensure that you finished a race
with at least one litter of fuel in your tank
so that the FIA that bring back the FIA can
test to ensure that they're using the right kind of
fuel that they will allow you to use. If you
do not finish the race and you don't still have
a liter of fuel your race is done for.
Speaker 5 (27:06):
Right, lots of pickup on the way, lots of pickup
slow on the way in safe you safe?
Speaker 1 (27:11):
That's very cool. Yeah, insane planning to have it be
that way.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
Going back to the pit stops though, yes, two aspects
to know about the pit stops. You've got the actual
pit stop changing of the tires, which that is generally
sub two seconds, that's what they aim for. I think
the fastest here was one point eight second.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Change all four wheels in one point eight seconds. Can
we stop for a second just to appreciate that.
Speaker 5 (27:34):
Why don't we actually stop for one point eight seconds?
So ready and we're done.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Boom.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
Then you've got the actual pit stop time, which is
going into the pit lane driving slower because you have
to obviously load in coming out, and that's round fifteen
to twenty seconds. So there's two ways of looking at
So when you think about a one pit stop or
two pit stop, it also depends on which tie you've
got on. You have to change your tires at once
and do soft compound or hard compound or medium compound.
(28:04):
And there's a whole conversation that we will have about
that in the tire episode or to do it, but
you basically map out that on a soft tire they
will last less long, but you will go faster than
on a hard compound tire. And so this is some
part of the game theoryus, do we do soft tires
where we can faster, but we're definitely gonna have to
do two pit stops to then change them on to
(28:25):
something else, Or do we start with hard tires where
they're going to last a lot longer, but we're gonna
go not as fast. And so you're trying to game
also what everyone else is doing, which is why when
you watch a race you will see next every name
if they've got a h or if they've got an
s an M to tell you what tires they are.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
Right, Well, yeah, it's a lot.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
It a lot.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
I do wonder there's so many more people personnel staff
than the driver. Yeah, but the driver actually has in
this case his hands on the wheel. Is the driver
just a pawn in this game? I mean, clearly, these
are super ego athletes who believe they should be at
(29:10):
the helm of a rocket ship. Ye, so you got
to let them do their thing. But basically you're saying
the game strategist is like, hey, do this turn left here?
You're pitting here. So if F one is a chess game,
then these drivers are just the pawns. Is that what
you're saying, No, I let me just check in with
the game strategists and I'll do whatever they tell me.
Speaker 4 (29:31):
That is a great, great question, because at the end
of the day, the driver can say I would like
to do forty laps on this soft tire. It's like, hey, buddy,
we've looked at your teammates or your competitors. They're doing
fifteen laps on that tire. You could do sixteen. If
you do twenty laps on this tire, you're going to
(29:52):
lose four positions done. You know that those are the
kind of conversations and through time you build up poor
between the driver and engineer. And at the same time,
also the drivers have a reasonable understanding of expectations and
then leave it to the engineers to help refine those
expectations as they learn more during a race or during
(30:14):
a season. But yeah, the drivers for sure have ultimately
say and very many times you will do things that
don't make sense because the data says this isn't possible.
The driver says, no, don't worry, I can definitely do
five more laps. You trust the driver on those situations
very often, but they don't know everything.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
I actually don't know of any other sport where the
main athlete celebrates the rest of their team as much
as they do. In Formula One, you will often hear
even Max wist happened that gets a lot of hate.
More or less every race, at the end of every race,
will say.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
What an unbelievable today. That was so enjoyable to drive.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
Thank you to the team. That was a great pull,
that was phenomenal, strategy, strategy, well executed.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
I think up really proud. That was unbelievable.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
And he's not the only one. Lewis Hamilton is the same.
Charle Leclair carlor signs. They all generally, when they have
a really good race, you will hear them say phenomenally
well executed, that was the great call. Or when it's bad,
they'll say, hey, we need to rewhoop and we talk,
you know, and talk about this. This wasn't good. I
think it's one of those that we can't. You can
build the fastest car in the world if you don't
(31:22):
have the right driver. Great you've got a fastest car
that's not going anywhere. You can have the best strategists
in the world that can play out the whole thing.
But if the race engineer isn't taking the right decision
and communicating that to the driver in the right time,
and the drivers and executing, then what's the point? And
I think it's that connection between all of those pieces
that just makes this sports so as big Tag, even
(31:42):
the logistical team are Formula one if the car parts
are not arriving on time. Fun fact, all teams can
only start unloading all of their cargoes and opening everything
once everyone has received their cargo. So if there's a
team that's delayed, everyone is delayed, which again I like,
it's like you know, and they'll talk about.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
It, you forgot to pack the steering wheel. Shit, the
whole race.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
Is canceled and you will Actually, I know this is
not the strategist and this is more the engineers, but
the engineers and the mechanics will often talk about the
camaraderie amongst the teams. They're like, on the track, we
take it all out on the track. We are not friends,
we are folks. We are enemies. One of us is winning.
Everyone else is not winning. But if you miss a
hammer or a screw driver or component, yeah we're going
(32:29):
to help you because if we were in that situation.
So there's a camaraderie there amongst the teams, and I
think you can see that on the team as well.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Starting to feel like a huge team sport.
Speaker 4 (32:37):
Oh my god, that's so perfect. And it is a
team sport. And it goes back to the first part
of the conversation we had. You have the driver, you
have the car, and you have the team. Operationally, all
three of those things have to be in harmony. Otherwise,
the best driver in the world, with the best car
in the world on the worst strategy will not win.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
I'll tell you what else isn't going to win a
podcast with no funding.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
Yes, let's break restponsors and we'll be right back. And
we're back.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
So this seems obvious, but game strategy is about decisions
made during the race.
Speaker 4 (33:14):
No, yeah, there's there's there's a whole like, yeah, that's
really good because when we talk about strategy, we're talking
about stuff in isolation. But you have other strategic considerations.
For example, teams are limited by the number of power
units or you know the engine and electrical systems together.
What if you could find half a second lap of performance,
(33:35):
but you had to fit five more engines. And when
you fit a certain amount of engines outside of re allocation,
you start taking grid penalties. So there's definitely times in
which you're considering that. Even bigger strategies and considering the
broader scope of the season is developments. For example, which
car upgrades are you going to bring? Where do you
(33:55):
want to bring a new car package to a weekend
when you only get one practice session, or let's say
the first half of the season is all tracks that
want a lot of downforce. Are you going to develop
a wing for your car that's low downforce in the
first part of the season. Now you're waiting until you
need that low downforce wing. You don't need your huge
(34:16):
wing until Monaco and that covers you for Singapore. You
don't need your super low wing until Spa or Manza,
which covers you for the other one of those. But yeah,
So understanding the season as a whole, understanding what's important
when also influences stuff that's happening at a factory in
terms of the design and build of these cars. Rather
(34:37):
than what's happening on the weekend. And that's a whole
different strategy and a whole different caniforms.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
So not just hey, pitstop and right now. They're also
looking at overall everything building the team. It's getting the
right driver.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
Blah blah blah, everythink that's like a data point they
are looking at and bringing in. Teams are always looking
to which is what I love, Always looking at the
next thing. They're like, cook, or we've got we've got
this car, what does next year's car look like? And
that's what was interesting by this year is twenty twenty two.
There was the biggest overhaul of changes and the car
was fundamentally different than anything that we'd seen before. And
(35:15):
some people, some teams were going to you know, come
out the door swinging and have a phenomenal teams and
phenomenal car, and some teams were going to come out
and go, oh, we missed it, like pretty badly. But
that's what was exciting about this season in twenty twenty
three because everyone was able to go back to the
drawing board and go, Okay, cool, we know what works,
we know what doesn't. If something did work, let's focus
on that more but it is always like a forward thinking,
(35:37):
future thinking sports.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
You know, none of this communication can happen if the
internet is lousy. Oh yeah, that's is that where that
fall under the logistic party.
Speaker 3 (35:48):
I see getting the cable set up cables at this
at these races are insane. They the cable guys and
then mostly men. But the cable teams arrive on the
Monday day before like the next day.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
They arrive Monday, but they give you a window and
they show up between twelve and.
Speaker 3 (36:06):
They show up at seven am and they're laying the cables.
Speaker 5 (36:09):
I wish cable would logistics is everything?
Speaker 2 (36:12):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (36:13):
All this determined? Woulds?
Speaker 3 (36:15):
I'll be the judgment judge. Yeah, if you think the
cable management system we have got going here is is
you know.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
Tricky and the law you wait, yeah, I do find
it interesting to learn about F one strategy. A lot
of this is new to me. There's a lot of factors,
ins and outs that never would have occurred to me.
And I'm realizing now going forward, maybe we could have
a new strategy. You just tell me what to do
and I'll do it. I'll be a good little George
(36:43):
Russell and I'll go pit whenever you want me to.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
So we're going back to plan A. Then I'm going
to need communication.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
I'm going to need a yes, back to plan A
non question, non statement.
Speaker 5 (37:06):
This has been Choosing Sides f one, a production of
Sports Illustrated Studios, iHeart Podcasts and one oh one Studio Podcasts.
The show is hosted by Michael Costa and Tony Cowan Brown.
This episode was edited, scored, and sound designed by senior
producer Jojai may Thaddle. Scott Stone is the executive producer
(37:31):
and head of Audio, and Daniel Wexman is Director of
Podcast Development and Production Manager at one o one Studios.
At iHeart Podcasts, Sean Titne is our executive producer. And
a special thank you to Michelle Newman, David Glasser, and
David Hootkin from one o one Studios. For more shows
(37:52):
from iHeart Podcasts, go visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts
or wherever you get your podcasts, and whatever you do,
don't forget to rate us and tell your friends it
really does mean a lot.
Speaker 3 (38:13):
Next week, on Choosing Sides f one, the Data Analyst,
we will go into why some Formula one fans like
watching the race with not one, not two, not three,
but at least five to ten different screens open simultaneously.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
Wow yep.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
And also why some of the nerdier or shall we say,
more tech savvy fans are reverting to writing specific code
to actually help them watch and understand and ultimately enjoy
the pinnacle of motorsports to its fullest.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
What yep, that's that's too much.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
We've only got one screen like.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
Writing code to enjoy. Okay, we'll get into it, Si
Moll
Host
Michael Kosta
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