November 20, 2024 • 29 mins
Author Rita Omokha joins us to discuss her new book Resist: How a Century of Young Black Activists Shaped America. We discuss the reelection of Donald Trump, historic and modern forms of activism, and the place literature has in the future of this country.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Podcasting from the Hip Hop Weekly Studios. I'd like to
welcome you to another episode of Civic Cipher, where our
mission is to foster allyship, empathy and understanding. I'm your host,
Ramsey's job.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
He is Rams's job. I am q Ward. You are
tuned into Civic Side.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
From DJR and today we have a very special guest.
For longtime listeners of the show, you know that one
of the things that we like to do is take
a moment per episode and delineate that and dedicate it
to instructions on how to become a better ally. It's
(00:35):
indeed the name of the segment, but other ways of
looking at that include, you know, gaining perspective, learning and
growing and understanding a world beyond your own. And I
think that today's guest deserves more than two minutes, which
is why we're doing an entire episode dedicated to her
(00:58):
and her current work. You'll come to know her in
a minute if you are already familiar. Rita Amoka is
an award winning Nigerian American journalist in New York City.
She was born and spent her early childhood in Benin City,
Edo State. Her writing on politics, race and vulnerable communities.
(01:20):
Has been featured on CNN and in Cosmopolitan, The Daily Beast, Elle, Glamour,
The Guardian, New York Magazine, Vanity Fair, The Washington Post,
and Wired, among other publications and outlets. She has written
about policing in America, federal inaction, on growing numbers of
COVID orphans, and missing and murdered Indigenous women. And she
(01:40):
is our guest today. So welcome Rita. It's a pleasure
to have you on the show today.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Thanks for having me appreciate you.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Okay, so do us a favor. You know, we've talked
about your work, but just so that our listeners are
familiar and understand who their meeting, tell us a little
bit about your background, you know, maybe a little bit
about you know, how you grew up, kind of what
shaped your perspective on the world and sort of what
led you to the conversation we're about to have today.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Yeah, yeah, thank you for that.
Speaker 4 (02:11):
So.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
I was born in Nigeria.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
I came here when I was really really young, and
I grew up in the stab Bronx. And I always
say it's a privilege to grow up as an immigrant.
And I say that because we don't have the history
of what it means to be descendants of African African
American slavery. So in a way, that's a privilege because
(02:35):
you get to navigate this country almost insulated, almost in
a bubble, and that protects you from how the white
gays in the sense kind of limits you and makes
you feel like you're less Dand so to me, I
feel like my brothers and I have four brothers. I
believe my brothers and I were privileged in that sense
because we were able to navigate this country not really
(02:57):
knowing the depths of.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Race and racism and discrimination.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
We came to this country because my mother was a
beneficiary of the Immigration Act of nineteen ninety and that
act was seeking to have more nurses come to this
country from third word country, so they went to places
like Africa and the Philippines, and so my mom was
one of the nurses that was hand selected to come
(03:23):
to this country. So our way of entering this country
was through her academic excellence, through her brilliance, and so
again having that be the background to which we were
granted access to this country, it was a way of
insulation because all we knew was all you needed to
do in this country based on our understanding was to
(03:45):
be academically excellent and everything else falls into place. And
so that was how I navigated this country. Even with
my eldest brother, Manny. Years later, he was arrested. He
was going to College of State ne K formerly White neighborhood,
and he was arrested and at the time he only
(04:07):
had a green card, and.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
So because of that he was supported.
Speaker 4 (04:12):
And so that deportation began, the separation of my family,
and that's how we've navigated this country for a long time.
But even when that happened, none of us thought it
was race or racism or discrimination. It was like, oh, man,
you know, just bad luck right again. Because we had
that insulation, we didn't really have a deep understanding of
(04:32):
what it was like to be this skin color in
this country.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
It was just again, you.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
Go to school, you go to work, you work hard,
and everything else should work out for you.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
But then fast.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
Forward for me, in twenty nineteen, I went to Columbia
to get my master's in journalism, and when I graduated
was May twentieth, five days later.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
If you recall, that's when George Floyd died.
Speaker 4 (04:59):
And even though at this point Obviously, I had known
about other deaths like this, like Michael Brown, Trevon Martin,
Eric Garner, Breonna Taylor. I knew that people were being
senselessly killed at the hands of police. But for some reason,
watching that video of George Floyd being killed so slowly,
so viciously, so inhumanly, just did something to me. And
(05:22):
it called back the memory of my brother Manny being arrested.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Even though we never talked about it like a family.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
But I, for the first time, even though I had
navigated this country since his deportation with so much anger
and just so much just angst, for the first time
seeing how George Floyd was being treated. One, it broke
my heart. But two, and I feel a little shamed
saying this, but I was grateful that the worst thing
(05:49):
that happened to Manny was that he was deported. And
so I stopped watching George Floyd and watching what was happening.
I just started to think, why is it that I've
never thought about race as something that could be a
limitation to someone that looks like me. I think I
was again protected from it because I didn't see it,
I didn't want to see it, and because I felt
(06:11):
because I had navigated the different spaces I was in
and kept doing well. It it really impacts me and
so again I felt guilty for never thinking that race
can be a factor in someone that looks like me
and my brothers and how we navigated this country. So
I wanted to go investigate that very ideology of like,
what what does it mean to mean this country?
Speaker 3 (06:33):
What does it mean to be you in this country?
What does it mean to be all of us in
this country?
Speaker 4 (06:37):
So I wanted to travel the country and just had
that conversation about how we all contend, and especially in
twenty twenty, there was so much happening that year, but
really I wanted to travel the country and do this
study of race relations and how the different subsets of
this country interacts with race relations, the understanding of it.
(06:58):
And it was through that journey that the book came
to be.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Hearing that from the perspective of someone who had an
understanding of the privilege of knowing where home is and
you know, blessings to our ad eBay and Yoruba brothers
and sisters in Nigeria. Hearing that from that perspective really
just kind of gave me chills. And to hear it
(07:26):
explain so honestly, you know, speaking of a kind of
mindset of privilege as you experienced that and then reaching
a point where you realized a lot of this we
are experiencing together, and the blessing that your brother did
not have a worse outcome and that interaction that he had,
the thing that Ramse and I have been very excited about,
not know, our listeners will be excited about as well
as this book. So please tell us about Resist, how
(07:50):
a century of young black activists shaped America, why you
wrote that book, and who you were targeting as an
audience for it.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
Yes, So going back to the trip, So the actual idea,
like the ideation I actually say, started from that trip, right.
So one of the stops I went to was in Portland,
And in Portland I stumbled upon this protest that was
being run by young people teenagers, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen year
old and they were protesting twofold, right, so it was
(08:22):
twenty twenty. They were protesting against the time that.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
We were all in.
Speaker 4 (08:25):
It was this major global racial reckoning. But they were
also protesting in remembrance of Patrick Kimmons, who had died
two years prior to that date. It was September thirtieth.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
And so I followed them.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
It was like one hundreds of people and I would
say five hundred plus people just protesting downtown Portland. And
they marched from this public downtown square to this parking
lot which is where Patrick was killed. And while they
were there, you know, one by one, they each were
taking to the bullhorn just talking about how they felt
and how they felt disregarded and overlooked in this country
(08:59):
because they were, you know, black people.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
And I just took a.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
Moment to just kind of like look in the crowd
and just thought about what does this even mean, you know,
again that immigrant perspective of what is happening right now.
I have never been to protest in my life. That
was that was my first protest. So I had a
lot of questions. And one of the questions that came
to my mind was how do they know that they
can even do this? How do they know that they
can protest and organize and galvanize in this way? And
(09:26):
so that began the questioning that I had in my mind.
I came back home to New York City and started
to research that. You know, what is the origin story
of protesting by young people, especially young black people, who
have been so systemically subjugated by the system, and how
do they know that they can even have a voice
and use their voice. So I wanted to trace this
(09:47):
and go back one hundred years, because again, twenty twenty
for me, I felt as a nation was such a
culmination of so many ills of this country. So I
wanted to do one hundred years from twenty twenty going
into nineteen twenty and looking for young people who have
fought for us. As we know, freedom is not free,
It was not never free. So how did we get
(10:09):
to this place where someone like me can navigate this
country so freely and revel and inherit this democracy?
Speaker 3 (10:15):
Where did it come from? So that was my research.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
I wanted to go find young people, young people of color,
who were at the forefront of fighting for this democracy
but were often overlooked. So Resist examines one hundred years
of young change reformers like Ella Baker, Charlie Cobb, Barbara
John's All the Way to twenty twenty to I'm Sorry,
(10:39):
Danella Frasier, who filmed the video of George Floyd. So
I really wanted to look at this kind of holistic
view of all the young people who have been, you know,
kind of fighting for what we know and see today
as democracy. And so yeah, so all the people I
cover in the book are lesser known, but they are audacious,
(11:01):
just like the ones I saw in Portland, and they
were not afraid to use their voice to decry the
ills of this country. They were not afraid to want
to hold this country to the ideals of the Constitution.
We know that this American democracy is still an experiment,
and they wanted to push America, to push this country
to that point where it actually lives up to the
(11:23):
expectations as outlined in the Constitution.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
You know, there's there's something really special hearing such a
profound story from outside of my own head because during
twenty twenty obviously we all had our own reaction to
(11:51):
all the goings on in twenty twenty, but you know,
I'm one of the people that actually made it to
Portland too, And to listen to your experience on the
ground in Portland, it's interesting, you know, I feel connected
to your experience because while mine wasn't nearly as pronounced
(12:14):
as yours, I do recall being on the street I
was there a little bit before y'all was there in
August on the ground, but I remember they had a
part of downtown sort of sectioned off and I could
pass very easily into that part of downtown. But they
did have I forget the name of the zone, but
(12:35):
it was like an encampment or something like that, and
it was a police free zone. And what they were
trying to do was let people know that people could
get along without policing as it was traditionally done. In
other words, it was a small sort of experiment to
(12:56):
validate the idea of community policing or really kind of
developed some other ideas that didn't that weren't subjected to
external forces or influences. And being on the ground there,
I saw something very similar to you. I saw the
(13:17):
the anger and the angst. I saw youth. I saw
a lot of graffitise. You know, it was outside and
it was it was getting busy. But I saw a
lot of hope. I saw a lot of willingness to
to learn and to grow, to accommodate other people's perspectives
(13:38):
as they were. There wasn't a lot of pushback of
in terms of the allies that were out there. They
weren't pushing a back, pushing back against black narratives, black perspectives,
not at all. They were there to receive that information.
And that's something that I brought to the conversation when
you and I first started this show. It was very
(14:01):
special and very meaningful to have that perspective. You know.
I realized that I needed that I needed to have
that experience in order to know that there were people
out there who were willing to learn and to listen
and so forth, and so again we developed a show
that was dedicated to feeling that that desire. We assumed
(14:28):
that people would take something meaningful away from the conversations
we might have on that program. And so similarly, you
were inspired to write this book Resist How a century
of young black activists shaped America. In your words, what
do you feel like your readers will take away from
(14:52):
the book? How will they grow? How might it shape
their perspective of this country, of the world, of their
others and sisters across tribal lines.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:02):
Yeah, I think the one thing that just keeps recurrent
in my mind, especially since two weeks ago with the election,
it's just that freedom wasn't free, And I think We're
going into a time of regression with Trump.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
As head of state.
Speaker 4 (15:19):
We're going into a season of regression, and that's really
scary to me. And I think this book is so
important right now because it just shows us how many
people literally fought, dyed bled for the democracy that we
have today. And to have people like Trump and his
single fans and flatterers want to take us back to
a time that we can't even fathom, that's really scary.
(15:42):
And I think I'm so grateful and so blessed that
I got to write this book right now because of
what's happening.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
We see it behind in front of.
Speaker 4 (15:48):
Our eyes that there are This country is rooted in
white supremacy. This country is rooted in misogyny. This country
is rooted in racism and sexism. And we saw that
with the election results. And I think people keep saying
that Kamala Harris lost because of bread and milk and
the price of all these groceries. But I think she
lost because she was a black woman, a woman of color,
(16:11):
and this country is inherently racist. And the book outlines
just how we got here, right and why supremacy has
ruled this country for so long and it still rules
this country right now. The fact that Trump was even
allowed to run again just shows just how deeply how
flawed we are as a nation. So I'm really not prescriptive,
(16:34):
but I do hope that whoever engages with this book
understands that that our freedom is so fragile right now.
It was never free, and now we're going into a
time in this country that some of us who look
like us may have to fight a little harder, may
have to tap into action and activism to hold people
(16:55):
accountable more. And I love that I was able to
spend so much time these characters because I really explained
their blueprint and how they fought. So hopefully people who
are thinking about, you know, activism can see that it's
not always about stomping the street.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
You know.
Speaker 4 (17:12):
Writing is a form of resistance too, you know, calling people,
organizing your friends and family to have conversations and educate them.
That's a form of resistance too. There are many ways
to fight back, and in this next four years, I
think we all, all the others in this country have
to figure out how to fight back. Because sure, I mean,
(17:32):
I'm still mourning the results, but I'm so grateful that
I had the backdrop and the research of the book
to help me navigate this time. I'm being very sincere
because I cried for three days. But I remember someone
like Barbara John's right, who was sixteen years old living
in jim Crow, South, and she decided to fight against
her school district and said, it's not fair that my
(17:56):
all black school we have to go to school with
paper paper shacks, whereas all the all white schools get
to have new resources and new buildings. If she can
fight back in that condition, we can do so much more.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Now.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
We have come so far and we have to now
take up that mantle and fight and safeguard this democracy.
So that is really my hope is that people really
understand that our freedom right now is so fragile, and
it's going into a time where people who look like
us may not even have some of the fundamental rights
that we once had and reveled in, and that was
(18:33):
fought for by people who came before us. So my
hope is that we understand that it's not a joke,
it's not a game, it's real. I mean, Trump really
said he wants to be a dictator on day one,
and we see his game plan I mean, he nominated
Matt Gates to DJ the same deal of just investigating
(18:54):
him for sex trafficking.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
Where are we right? So it's really a scary time.
Speaker 4 (18:58):
I think people like to ignore politics, but we're going
into a time where it's almost going to be all
hands on deck, where you have to figure out what
is your form of resistance and you just do it.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
You know, I echo so many of your sentiments. I
didn't speak to anyone for a few days after the election,
and anyone, including my brother that I'm sitting next to,
I just I could not fathom that result. In my mind,
it wasn't even a possibility. And then I listened to
all these political strategists and talk show hosts and quote
(19:31):
unquote experts talk about all the reasons why our vice
president lost the election, and I'm listening to these reasons
and realizing the other candidate was not held to this
same standard. I wonder why, And I think the reason
is exactly what you said. The black woman had to
be perfect, while the white man was not only flawed
but disgusting. So even if that was the only thing
(19:58):
on his resume, that should have been a discre qualifier.
But here we are. I also have to speak to
the humility that you just expressed in asserting that you
are not being prescriptive, right, Ramses and I have to
remind our listeners all the time, we don't have all
the answers, we are not always the expert, but we
can't do nothing. And with this book you have given
(20:18):
it not just data and information, but some form of instruction.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
Right.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
This might not be the answer, but this is what
these activists did in their time. This is how they
wielded their power and fought back against a system that
is kind of set up against us. Bringing us to today, however,
our circumstances may not feel as dire as they did
in the fifties and sixties and even in the early
nineteen hundreds, but here we are where black history, black literature,
(20:50):
black authors, and black experts are under attack, not just
for mainstream media, but from the federal government when you
had or in state level governments that are outlawing you know,
black literature and black history. As an artist and the
creator in this space, you know, talk to us about
this new climbing and do you think the work that
you do will come under fire or even the work
(21:11):
that people like rams and I do. Will we be
in a place where where we're able to flex this
muscle and even use this tool as a way of
fighting back.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
I think so.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
I think even though like right now Trump there's really
no guardrails right now they have a house to senate.
But I do think there's enough sensible people in Congress
to fight back, like he cannot, for example, take back
the First Amendment right and that's what protects us right
to use our boys to to speak out. I don't
(21:45):
see that happening because again, there's enough. I believe there's
enough people in Congress. I see it now as they're
fighting back against Matt Gates. So I don't see a
time where he wants to you know, jail reporters and
and people who speak out against them who had their
right to do that because they're protected at their First Amendment.
(22:06):
So I don't see a time where we won't be
able to speak out. Now, what his single fans and
his I want to say, like followers do, is out
of our control. I mean, I've been targeted by trolls.
I get emails all the time calling me all kinds
of names.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
I think, yeah, yeah, Unfortunately, we can relate.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
Yeah, yeah, So I think that's the extent of it,
the bullying, the trolling.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
Sometimes.
Speaker 4 (22:32):
You know, the reason I'm not on social media is
because someone found my mom's address and sent it to
me after I get this op ed on Trump, and
I said, okay, if this is not worth it. So
so that's the extent of it, is the violence, and
just a reminder. When Trump was first in office, hate
crimes went up by twenty percent. This is according to
the FBI. So I do think we'll see a lot
(22:55):
of hate crimes. I do see US reporters and writers
getting attacked by that. But I don't think there'll be
any sort of like federal intervention to prevent us from
using our voice. It will be everyday people doing every
day people hate kind of stuff and coming and trolling us.
But I don't see a time where Trump or any
(23:15):
sort of federal intervention can stop us from doing what
we do.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Sure, sure, I appreciate that because as time passes there
since there seems to be a little bit more I
wouldn't say a little bit more optimism, but a little
bit less in the way of like bleak outlooks. I
think people are sobering up and recognizing that. Of course,
(23:40):
you know, we need to batten down the hatches, we
need to prepare for what is to come. But I
and I hear it in your voice too. You know
we'll make it through. We're resilient. We're going to suffer
some losses inevitably, and you know the rip effects will
(24:00):
be felt for the rest of our lives. But such
as such as the game we're playing here, you know.
You know, for us to even get to this point
took hundreds of years, and there were certainly setbacks along
the way. Uh And I'm sure that your your book
speaks to some of those even so, you know, and
(24:21):
you mentioned personally people finding your mother's address. I recall
it an instance where some online bullies found the address
to my son's school, you know, and this comes with
the territory. You know, you mentioned that a twenty percent
increase in hate crimes during Trump's first presidency.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
That is going to be a far greater number this time.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Sure, And and you know we covered we covered a
recent story where we discussed I think it was forgive
me if the numbers aren't accurate, but I think it
was like a fifty six increase in anti women rhetoric online,
specific phrases that you can that you can track, you know,
(25:04):
your body, my choice. There was a similar uptick and
at on college and high school campuses around the country.
And you know, this is something that and and of
course the racist stuff as well, but you know, this
is just you know, these upticks are what we've we've
referred to on this show as the Trump Effect. And
(25:25):
this is what we've been trying to say to, you know,
people who are fans and sycophants and part of that
Maga cult that still considered themselves to be decent people.
They turned them. They turn a blind eye even if
Donald Trump is the best candidate for them. They turn
a blind eye to the Trump effect and how that
negatively impacts so many of us who have worked so
(25:47):
hard and and and have have been on this road
for such a long time trying to bring about even
more changes that brings about an equitable experience for us
and our children. And you know, we function in this capacity.
We're broadcasters and podcasters of course, and you know you're
(26:07):
an author. We're eventually we're going to kind of break
into that space. I feel like you should probably break
into this space if you're not already because your stories
they play like movies. But I really think that there's
something special here. I want you to do us a favor.
And I know you mentioned that you weren't on social media,
but can you please let these actual allies and people
(26:31):
who are are, you know, actually in the fight ourselves
know where we can get this book, maybe some of
the other things that you're working on, and any connective tissue,
if it's not social media, maybe there's a website or
somehow that people can kind of track, you know, things
to come from your part of the world.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
Yeah, thank you for that.
Speaker 4 (26:50):
Yeah, the book is out wherever books are sold, Amazon Bookshop,
on Alsa McMillan, which is a publishers website. And my
website is my first thing, last Name dot com, so
Rita Amoga dot com.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
And I'm also on LinkedIn.
Speaker 4 (27:05):
I'm not as active on there, but that's where I'm
usually connecting with people.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
And I do have a few things coming up.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
I have my second book I'm working on right now,
which was influenced by this recent loss by Kamala Harris,
and it is going to be are we examination of
black women's experiences in this country and connecting that to
slavery and onward, and I think it's it's helping me
heal right now. The researching and reporting on the book
right now is helping me just navigate this time and
(27:35):
understanding more acutely how we got here, because again I'm
still I'm still mourning and grieving the time, and I
think as a black woman, I represent everything that Trump
and his incoming team hates. So I'm trying to just
navigate that and figure out how I'm going to heal
and make sure that Again, I see writing for me
(27:56):
as a form of resistance, and I just want to
encourage people to find a way to be part of activism.
It doesn't mean you have to protest and go outside,
but again, if it's writing journaline, talking to your friends
about different things that are happening, and keeping people informed,
that's how we stay connected. Because there's so much this
information out there that I think really led to Trump's
(28:18):
win as well. There were so many people getting their
first hand use from social media. I think that's what
we impacted how people were getting their information because they
were digesting wrong information and thought this one thing about
Trump and thought this one thing about Kamal up and
it was untrue. So yeah, I think it's all hands
on deck. I keep saying for the next four years,
(28:39):
we have to help each other out and make sure
we're protected, but also that we find a way to
get active and to form some kind of alliance with
each other. I love that.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Well, thank you so much for your time, and thank
you for your book and the work that you've done,
and you know, just sharing the experiences that you have.
I know that, but you know, you mentioned that we
need to share stories with each other, and I think
you've done a fantastic job and we can't thank you enough.
This was something we're definitely looking forward to absolutely, So yeah,
(29:12):
just from the bottom of our hearts, thank you once again.
Today's guest Rita Amoka, an award winning Nigerian American journalist
and the author of the book Resist, How a century
of young Black activists shaped America.
Podcasting from the Hip Hop Weekly Studios. I'd like to
welcome you to another episode of Civic Cipher, where our
mission is to foster allyship, empathy and understanding. I'm your host,
Ramsey's job.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
He is Rams's job. I am q Ward. You are
tuned into Civic Side.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
From DJR and today we have a very special guest.
For longtime listeners of the show, you know that one
of the things that we like to do is take
a moment per episode and delineate that and dedicate it
to instructions on how to become a better ally. It's
(00:35):
indeed the name of the segment, but other ways of
looking at that include, you know, gaining perspective, learning and
growing and understanding a world beyond your own. And I
think that today's guest deserves more than two minutes, which
is why we're doing an entire episode dedicated to her
(00:58):
and her current work. You'll come to know her in
a minute if you are already familiar. Rita Amoka is
an award winning Nigerian American journalist in New York City.
She was born and spent her early childhood in Benin City,
Edo State. Her writing on politics, race and vulnerable communities.
(01:20):
Has been featured on CNN and in Cosmopolitan, The Daily Beast, Elle, Glamour,
The Guardian, New York Magazine, Vanity Fair, The Washington Post,
and Wired, among other publications and outlets. She has written
about policing in America, federal inaction, on growing numbers of
COVID orphans, and missing and murdered Indigenous women. And she
(01:40):
is our guest today. So welcome Rita. It's a pleasure
to have you on the show today.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Thanks for having me appreciate you.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Okay, so do us a favor. You know, we've talked
about your work, but just so that our listeners are
familiar and understand who their meeting, tell us a little
bit about your background, you know, maybe a little bit
about you know, how you grew up, kind of what
shaped your perspective on the world and sort of what
led you to the conversation we're about to have today.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Yeah, yeah, thank you for that.
Speaker 4 (02:11):
So.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
I was born in Nigeria.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
I came here when I was really really young, and
I grew up in the stab Bronx. And I always
say it's a privilege to grow up as an immigrant.
And I say that because we don't have the history
of what it means to be descendants of African African
American slavery. So in a way, that's a privilege because
(02:35):
you get to navigate this country almost insulated, almost in
a bubble, and that protects you from how the white
gays in the sense kind of limits you and makes
you feel like you're less Dand so to me, I
feel like my brothers and I have four brothers. I
believe my brothers and I were privileged in that sense
because we were able to navigate this country not really
(02:57):
knowing the depths of.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Race and racism and discrimination.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
We came to this country because my mother was a
beneficiary of the Immigration Act of nineteen ninety and that
act was seeking to have more nurses come to this
country from third word country, so they went to places
like Africa and the Philippines, and so my mom was
one of the nurses that was hand selected to come
(03:23):
to this country. So our way of entering this country
was through her academic excellence, through her brilliance, and so
again having that be the background to which we were
granted access to this country, it was a way of
insulation because all we knew was all you needed to
do in this country based on our understanding was to
(03:45):
be academically excellent and everything else falls into place. And
so that was how I navigated this country. Even with
my eldest brother, Manny. Years later, he was arrested. He
was going to College of State ne K formerly White neighborhood,
and he was arrested and at the time he only
(04:07):
had a green card, and.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
So because of that he was supported.
Speaker 4 (04:12):
And so that deportation began, the separation of my family,
and that's how we've navigated this country for a long time.
But even when that happened, none of us thought it
was race or racism or discrimination. It was like, oh, man,
you know, just bad luck right again. Because we had
that insulation, we didn't really have a deep understanding of
(04:32):
what it was like to be this skin color in
this country.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
It was just again, you.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
Go to school, you go to work, you work hard,
and everything else should work out for you.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
But then fast.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
Forward for me, in twenty nineteen, I went to Columbia
to get my master's in journalism, and when I graduated
was May twentieth, five days later.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
If you recall, that's when George Floyd died.
Speaker 4 (04:59):
And even though at this point Obviously, I had known
about other deaths like this, like Michael Brown, Trevon Martin,
Eric Garner, Breonna Taylor. I knew that people were being
senselessly killed at the hands of police. But for some reason,
watching that video of George Floyd being killed so slowly,
so viciously, so inhumanly, just did something to me. And
(05:22):
it called back the memory of my brother Manny being arrested.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Even though we never talked about it like a family.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
But I, for the first time, even though I had
navigated this country since his deportation with so much anger
and just so much just angst, for the first time
seeing how George Floyd was being treated. One, it broke
my heart. But two, and I feel a little shamed
saying this, but I was grateful that the worst thing
(05:49):
that happened to Manny was that he was deported. And
so I stopped watching George Floyd and watching what was happening.
I just started to think, why is it that I've
never thought about race as something that could be a
limitation to someone that looks like me. I think I
was again protected from it because I didn't see it,
I didn't want to see it, and because I felt
(06:11):
because I had navigated the different spaces I was in
and kept doing well. It it really impacts me and
so again I felt guilty for never thinking that race
can be a factor in someone that looks like me
and my brothers and how we navigated this country. So
I wanted to go investigate that very ideology of like,
what what does it mean to mean this country?
Speaker 3 (06:33):
What does it mean to be you in this country?
What does it mean to be all of us in
this country?
Speaker 4 (06:37):
So I wanted to travel the country and just had
that conversation about how we all contend, and especially in
twenty twenty, there was so much happening that year, but
really I wanted to travel the country and do this
study of race relations and how the different subsets of
this country interacts with race relations, the understanding of it.
(06:58):
And it was through that journey that the book came
to be.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Hearing that from the perspective of someone who had an
understanding of the privilege of knowing where home is and
you know, blessings to our ad eBay and Yoruba brothers
and sisters in Nigeria. Hearing that from that perspective really
just kind of gave me chills. And to hear it
(07:26):
explain so honestly, you know, speaking of a kind of
mindset of privilege as you experienced that and then reaching
a point where you realized a lot of this we
are experiencing together, and the blessing that your brother did
not have a worse outcome and that interaction that he had,
the thing that Ramse and I have been very excited about,
not know, our listeners will be excited about as well
as this book. So please tell us about Resist, how
(07:50):
a century of young black activists shaped America, why you
wrote that book, and who you were targeting as an
audience for it.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
Yes, So going back to the trip, So the actual idea,
like the ideation I actually say, started from that trip, right.
So one of the stops I went to was in Portland,
And in Portland I stumbled upon this protest that was
being run by young people teenagers, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen year
old and they were protesting twofold, right, so it was
(08:22):
twenty twenty. They were protesting against the time that.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
We were all in.
Speaker 4 (08:25):
It was this major global racial reckoning. But they were
also protesting in remembrance of Patrick Kimmons, who had died
two years prior to that date. It was September thirtieth.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
And so I followed them.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
It was like one hundreds of people and I would
say five hundred plus people just protesting downtown Portland. And
they marched from this public downtown square to this parking
lot which is where Patrick was killed. And while they
were there, you know, one by one, they each were
taking to the bullhorn just talking about how they felt
and how they felt disregarded and overlooked in this country
(08:59):
because they were, you know, black people.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
And I just took a.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
Moment to just kind of like look in the crowd
and just thought about what does this even mean, you know,
again that immigrant perspective of what is happening right now.
I have never been to protest in my life. That
was that was my first protest. So I had a
lot of questions. And one of the questions that came
to my mind was how do they know that they
can even do this? How do they know that they
can protest and organize and galvanize in this way? And
(09:26):
so that began the questioning that I had in my mind.
I came back home to New York City and started
to research that. You know, what is the origin story
of protesting by young people, especially young black people, who
have been so systemically subjugated by the system, and how
do they know that they can even have a voice
and use their voice. So I wanted to trace this
(09:47):
and go back one hundred years, because again, twenty twenty
for me, I felt as a nation was such a
culmination of so many ills of this country. So I
wanted to do one hundred years from twenty twenty going
into nineteen twenty and looking for young people who have
fought for us. As we know, freedom is not free,
It was not never free. So how did we get
(10:09):
to this place where someone like me can navigate this
country so freely and revel and inherit this democracy?
Speaker 3 (10:15):
Where did it come from? So that was my research.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
I wanted to go find young people, young people of color,
who were at the forefront of fighting for this democracy
but were often overlooked. So Resist examines one hundred years
of young change reformers like Ella Baker, Charlie Cobb, Barbara
John's All the Way to twenty twenty to I'm Sorry,
(10:39):
Danella Frasier, who filmed the video of George Floyd. So
I really wanted to look at this kind of holistic
view of all the young people who have been, you know,
kind of fighting for what we know and see today
as democracy. And so yeah, so all the people I
cover in the book are lesser known, but they are audacious,
(11:01):
just like the ones I saw in Portland, and they
were not afraid to use their voice to decry the
ills of this country. They were not afraid to want
to hold this country to the ideals of the Constitution.
We know that this American democracy is still an experiment,
and they wanted to push America, to push this country
to that point where it actually lives up to the
(11:23):
expectations as outlined in the Constitution.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
You know, there's there's something really special hearing such a
profound story from outside of my own head because during
twenty twenty obviously we all had our own reaction to
(11:51):
all the goings on in twenty twenty, but you know,
I'm one of the people that actually made it to
Portland too, And to listen to your experience on the
ground in Portland, it's interesting, you know, I feel connected
to your experience because while mine wasn't nearly as pronounced
(12:14):
as yours, I do recall being on the street I
was there a little bit before y'all was there in
August on the ground, but I remember they had a
part of downtown sort of sectioned off and I could
pass very easily into that part of downtown. But they
did have I forget the name of the zone, but
(12:35):
it was like an encampment or something like that, and
it was a police free zone. And what they were
trying to do was let people know that people could
get along without policing as it was traditionally done. In
other words, it was a small sort of experiment to
(12:56):
validate the idea of community policing or really kind of
developed some other ideas that didn't that weren't subjected to
external forces or influences. And being on the ground there,
I saw something very similar to you. I saw the
(13:17):
the anger and the angst. I saw youth. I saw
a lot of graffitise. You know, it was outside and
it was it was getting busy. But I saw a
lot of hope. I saw a lot of willingness to
to learn and to grow, to accommodate other people's perspectives
(13:38):
as they were. There wasn't a lot of pushback of
in terms of the allies that were out there. They
weren't pushing a back, pushing back against black narratives, black perspectives,
not at all. They were there to receive that information.
And that's something that I brought to the conversation when
you and I first started this show. It was very
(14:01):
special and very meaningful to have that perspective. You know.
I realized that I needed that I needed to have
that experience in order to know that there were people
out there who were willing to learn and to listen
and so forth, and so again we developed a show
that was dedicated to feeling that that desire. We assumed
(14:28):
that people would take something meaningful away from the conversations
we might have on that program. And so similarly, you
were inspired to write this book Resist How a century
of young black activists shaped America. In your words, what
do you feel like your readers will take away from
(14:52):
the book? How will they grow? How might it shape
their perspective of this country, of the world, of their
others and sisters across tribal lines.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:02):
Yeah, I think the one thing that just keeps recurrent
in my mind, especially since two weeks ago with the election,
it's just that freedom wasn't free, And I think We're
going into a time of regression with Trump.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
As head of state.
Speaker 4 (15:19):
We're going into a season of regression, and that's really
scary to me. And I think this book is so
important right now because it just shows us how many
people literally fought, dyed bled for the democracy that we
have today. And to have people like Trump and his
single fans and flatterers want to take us back to
a time that we can't even fathom, that's really scary.
(15:42):
And I think I'm so grateful and so blessed that
I got to write this book right now because of
what's happening.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
We see it behind in front of.
Speaker 4 (15:48):
Our eyes that there are This country is rooted in
white supremacy. This country is rooted in misogyny. This country
is rooted in racism and sexism. And we saw that
with the election results. And I think people keep saying
that Kamala Harris lost because of bread and milk and
the price of all these groceries. But I think she
lost because she was a black woman, a woman of color,
(16:11):
and this country is inherently racist. And the book outlines
just how we got here, right and why supremacy has
ruled this country for so long and it still rules
this country right now. The fact that Trump was even
allowed to run again just shows just how deeply how
flawed we are as a nation. So I'm really not prescriptive,
(16:34):
but I do hope that whoever engages with this book
understands that that our freedom is so fragile right now.
It was never free, and now we're going into a
time in this country that some of us who look
like us may have to fight a little harder, may
have to tap into action and activism to hold people
(16:55):
accountable more. And I love that I was able to
spend so much time these characters because I really explained
their blueprint and how they fought. So hopefully people who
are thinking about, you know, activism can see that it's
not always about stomping the street.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
You know.
Speaker 4 (17:12):
Writing is a form of resistance too, you know, calling people,
organizing your friends and family to have conversations and educate them.
That's a form of resistance too. There are many ways
to fight back, and in this next four years, I
think we all, all the others in this country have
to figure out how to fight back. Because sure, I mean,
(17:32):
I'm still mourning the results, but I'm so grateful that
I had the backdrop and the research of the book
to help me navigate this time. I'm being very sincere
because I cried for three days. But I remember someone
like Barbara John's right, who was sixteen years old living
in jim Crow, South, and she decided to fight against
her school district and said, it's not fair that my
(17:56):
all black school we have to go to school with
paper paper shacks, whereas all the all white schools get
to have new resources and new buildings. If she can
fight back in that condition, we can do so much more.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Now.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
We have come so far and we have to now
take up that mantle and fight and safeguard this democracy.
So that is really my hope is that people really
understand that our freedom right now is so fragile, and
it's going into a time where people who look like
us may not even have some of the fundamental rights
that we once had and reveled in, and that was
(18:33):
fought for by people who came before us. So my
hope is that we understand that it's not a joke,
it's not a game, it's real. I mean, Trump really
said he wants to be a dictator on day one,
and we see his game plan I mean, he nominated
Matt Gates to DJ the same deal of just investigating
(18:54):
him for sex trafficking.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
Where are we right? So it's really a scary time.
Speaker 4 (18:58):
I think people like to ignore politics, but we're going
into a time where it's almost going to be all
hands on deck, where you have to figure out what
is your form of resistance and you just do it.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
You know, I echo so many of your sentiments. I
didn't speak to anyone for a few days after the election,
and anyone, including my brother that I'm sitting next to,
I just I could not fathom that result. In my mind,
it wasn't even a possibility. And then I listened to
all these political strategists and talk show hosts and quote
(19:31):
unquote experts talk about all the reasons why our vice
president lost the election, and I'm listening to these reasons
and realizing the other candidate was not held to this
same standard. I wonder why, And I think the reason
is exactly what you said. The black woman had to
be perfect, while the white man was not only flawed
but disgusting. So even if that was the only thing
(19:58):
on his resume, that should have been a discre qualifier.
But here we are. I also have to speak to
the humility that you just expressed in asserting that you
are not being prescriptive, right, Ramses and I have to
remind our listeners all the time, we don't have all
the answers, we are not always the expert, but we
can't do nothing. And with this book you have given
(20:18):
it not just data and information, but some form of instruction.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
Right.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
This might not be the answer, but this is what
these activists did in their time. This is how they
wielded their power and fought back against a system that
is kind of set up against us. Bringing us to today, however,
our circumstances may not feel as dire as they did
in the fifties and sixties and even in the early
nineteen hundreds, but here we are where black history, black literature,
(20:50):
black authors, and black experts are under attack, not just
for mainstream media, but from the federal government when you
had or in state level governments that are outlawing you know,
black literature and black history. As an artist and the
creator in this space, you know, talk to us about
this new climbing and do you think the work that
you do will come under fire or even the work
(21:11):
that people like rams and I do. Will we be
in a place where where we're able to flex this
muscle and even use this tool as a way of
fighting back.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
I think so.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
I think even though like right now Trump there's really
no guardrails right now they have a house to senate.
But I do think there's enough sensible people in Congress
to fight back, like he cannot, for example, take back
the First Amendment right and that's what protects us right
to use our boys to to speak out. I don't
(21:45):
see that happening because again, there's enough. I believe there's
enough people in Congress. I see it now as they're
fighting back against Matt Gates. So I don't see a
time where he wants to you know, jail reporters and
and people who speak out against them who had their
right to do that because they're protected at their First Amendment.
(22:06):
So I don't see a time where we won't be
able to speak out. Now, what his single fans and
his I want to say, like followers do, is out
of our control. I mean, I've been targeted by trolls.
I get emails all the time calling me all kinds
of names.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
I think, yeah, yeah, Unfortunately, we can relate.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
Yeah, yeah, So I think that's the extent of it,
the bullying, the trolling.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
Sometimes.
Speaker 4 (22:32):
You know, the reason I'm not on social media is
because someone found my mom's address and sent it to
me after I get this op ed on Trump, and
I said, okay, if this is not worth it. So
so that's the extent of it, is the violence, and
just a reminder. When Trump was first in office, hate
crimes went up by twenty percent. This is according to
the FBI. So I do think we'll see a lot
(22:55):
of hate crimes. I do see US reporters and writers
getting attacked by that. But I don't think there'll be
any sort of like federal intervention to prevent us from
using our voice. It will be everyday people doing every
day people hate kind of stuff and coming and trolling us.
But I don't see a time where Trump or any
(23:15):
sort of federal intervention can stop us from doing what
we do.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Sure, sure, I appreciate that because as time passes there
since there seems to be a little bit more I
wouldn't say a little bit more optimism, but a little
bit less in the way of like bleak outlooks. I
think people are sobering up and recognizing that. Of course,
(23:40):
you know, we need to batten down the hatches, we
need to prepare for what is to come. But I
and I hear it in your voice too. You know
we'll make it through. We're resilient. We're going to suffer
some losses inevitably, and you know the rip effects will
(24:00):
be felt for the rest of our lives. But such
as such as the game we're playing here, you know.
You know, for us to even get to this point
took hundreds of years, and there were certainly setbacks along
the way. Uh And I'm sure that your your book
speaks to some of those even so, you know, and
(24:21):
you mentioned personally people finding your mother's address. I recall
it an instance where some online bullies found the address
to my son's school, you know, and this comes with
the territory. You know, you mentioned that a twenty percent
increase in hate crimes during Trump's first presidency.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
That is going to be a far greater number this time.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Sure, And and you know we covered we covered a
recent story where we discussed I think it was forgive
me if the numbers aren't accurate, but I think it
was like a fifty six increase in anti women rhetoric online,
specific phrases that you can that you can track, you know,
(25:04):
your body, my choice. There was a similar uptick and
at on college and high school campuses around the country.
And you know, this is something that and and of
course the racist stuff as well, but you know, this
is just you know, these upticks are what we've we've
referred to on this show as the Trump Effect. And
(25:25):
this is what we've been trying to say to, you know,
people who are fans and sycophants and part of that
Maga cult that still considered themselves to be decent people.
They turned them. They turn a blind eye even if
Donald Trump is the best candidate for them. They turn
a blind eye to the Trump effect and how that
negatively impacts so many of us who have worked so
(25:47):
hard and and and have have been on this road
for such a long time trying to bring about even
more changes that brings about an equitable experience for us
and our children. And you know, we function in this capacity.
We're broadcasters and podcasters of course, and you know you're
(26:07):
an author. We're eventually we're going to kind of break
into that space. I feel like you should probably break
into this space if you're not already because your stories
they play like movies. But I really think that there's
something special here. I want you to do us a favor.
And I know you mentioned that you weren't on social media,
but can you please let these actual allies and people
(26:31):
who are are, you know, actually in the fight ourselves
know where we can get this book, maybe some of
the other things that you're working on, and any connective tissue,
if it's not social media, maybe there's a website or
somehow that people can kind of track, you know, things
to come from your part of the world.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
Yeah, thank you for that.
Speaker 4 (26:50):
Yeah, the book is out wherever books are sold, Amazon Bookshop,
on Alsa McMillan, which is a publishers website. And my
website is my first thing, last Name dot com, so
Rita Amoga dot com.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
And I'm also on LinkedIn.
Speaker 4 (27:05):
I'm not as active on there, but that's where I'm
usually connecting with people.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
And I do have a few things coming up.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
I have my second book I'm working on right now,
which was influenced by this recent loss by Kamala Harris,
and it is going to be are we examination of
black women's experiences in this country and connecting that to
slavery and onward, and I think it's it's helping me
heal right now. The researching and reporting on the book
right now is helping me just navigate this time and
(27:35):
understanding more acutely how we got here, because again I'm
still I'm still mourning and grieving the time, and I
think as a black woman, I represent everything that Trump
and his incoming team hates. So I'm trying to just
navigate that and figure out how I'm going to heal
and make sure that Again, I see writing for me
(27:56):
as a form of resistance, and I just want to
encourage people to find a way to be part of activism.
It doesn't mean you have to protest and go outside,
but again, if it's writing journaline, talking to your friends
about different things that are happening, and keeping people informed,
that's how we stay connected. Because there's so much this
information out there that I think really led to Trump's
(28:18):
win as well. There were so many people getting their
first hand use from social media. I think that's what
we impacted how people were getting their information because they
were digesting wrong information and thought this one thing about
Trump and thought this one thing about Kamal up and
it was untrue. So yeah, I think it's all hands
on deck. I keep saying for the next four years,
(28:39):
we have to help each other out and make sure
we're protected, but also that we find a way to
get active and to form some kind of alliance with
each other. I love that.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Well, thank you so much for your time, and thank
you for your book and the work that you've done,
and you know, just sharing the experiences that you have.
I know that, but you know, you mentioned that we
need to share stories with each other, and I think
you've done a fantastic job and we can't thank you enough.
This was something we're definitely looking forward to absolutely, So yeah,
(29:12):
just from the bottom of our hearts, thank you once again.
Today's guest Rita Amoka, an award winning Nigerian American journalist
and the author of the book Resist, How a century
of young Black activists shaped America.
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