July 12, 2025 • 22 mins
Today’s guest is Bobby Nichols—the former Phoenix Democratic Socialist of America's chapter chair and current member. He is the founder of Arizona Works Together, a pro-union political action committee operating at the state level. Additionally, Bobby Nichols works for the Office of the Arizona Attorney General as a state attorney representing Arizona's Departments of Child Safety and Economic Security in Superior and Administrative Court cases involving the abuse, neglect, and exploitation of minor children and vulnerable adults.
In the second half of the show, we discuss socialist principles and how they won New York City over in the recent mayoral race.
Support the show: https://www.patreon.com/civiccipher?utm_source=search
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Keep on riding, would have says. We continue to broadcast
the balance and defend the discourse from the hip hop
Weekly Studios. Welcome back to Civic Cipher. I am your host,
Rams's Jah and my main man, the man with the
plan Qward. He is probably still on an airplane somewhere
over that South Dakota or something I don't know, and
(00:21):
is missing this fantastic conversation that we're having today with
the one and only Bobby Nichols, who, if you don't know,
he's the former Phoenix Democratic Socialist of America's chapter chair
and current member. He's a founder of Arizona works together
a pro union political action committee operating at the state level. Additionally,
Bobby Nichols works for the Office of the Arizona Attorney
General as a state attorney representing Arizona's Department of Child
(00:42):
Safety and Economic Security and superior and administrative court cases
involving the abuse and neglect and exploitation of minor children
and vulnerable adults. And he is not speaking in that
capacity today, That is correct. I had to help you out,
had to help you out, all right. Before we go
any further, of course, it is time to discuss Baba
becoming a better ally Baba. On today's Baba, we want
(01:05):
you to check out DSAUSA dot org. All right, I'm
going to share from their website, and of course I'm
not compelling you to do this, but if it catches
your ear, there are some resources, all right. Their website
states The Democratic Socialists of America is the largest socialist
organization in the United States with over eight hundred sorry
with only eighty thousand members and chapters in all fifty states.
They believe that working people should run both the economy
(01:28):
and society democratically to meet human needs, not to make
profits for a few. There are a political and activist organization,
not a party. Through campus and community based chapters, DSA
members use a variety of tactics, from legislative to direct action,
to fight for reforms that empower working people. The Democratic
Socialists of America is the largest socialist organization in the
United States because they are member driven mass organization. I
(01:50):
believe that working people should run both the economy and
civil society, and they show their commitment to this principle
by being an organization of by and for the working class.
We're all in together for the poor and working class
to win a better world, we must care for our neighbors,
build community, and fight alongside each other. As a working
class organization, they are funding themselves as workers. They are
(02:11):
in charge of their own liberation, and they have some
monumental tasks ahead of them, fights that they must win,
and they can't do it alone. So you can give
today because there is a world to win and a
lot more than that it seems at stake Again, if
you want to learn more, you can check out DSAUSA
dot org. That's DSA USA dot org. And you know,
(02:34):
the more that I learn about because you know, to
be fair this show, we have to talk to Republicans,
we have to talk to democrats, we have to talk
to socialists, we have to talk to you know, tea
party people. And I think that my metric on human
beings is based on kindness, and man if I don't
find a lot of kind people in the socialist movement. Man,
(02:56):
So good for you all. All right, let's get back to
the conversation. Okay, So there was something that I wanted
to ask you earlier. Oh, what would you say is
people's biggest misunderstanding about socialism?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
I think the biggest misunderstanding that people have about socialism
is that we're going to come to your house and
take your toothbrush and your car and all that real
important distinction between personal property and private property. If you
own a house, if you own a car, if you
own a toothbrush, that's your personal property. Nobody's going to
do anything with that. If you own a factory that
(03:35):
employs pennies on the dollar labor in a foreign country,
that is private property. And that is the sort of
thing that a socialist society would not allow to be
collected in the hands of one person, but would rather
be a resource for the entire society to benefit.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
So how do people get rich under socialism?
Speaker 2 (03:53):
People don't need to get rich under socialism, but they
still have the capacity to trade and work with each
other to directly. It's not a matter of having money
or not having money. It's a matter of the society
being running a way that allows for everybody to have
their needs match.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Okay, so we're thinking of wealth and the path to
wealth in a two dimensional fashion, is what you're suggesting.
There are other ways to get there under a different
societal framework.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Yeah, Because, like if you go to the grocery store
and you get everything you need and you didn't really
have to pay for it. Like that's the idea where
you've already been working and contributing to the society. Eventually
you get to this post scarcity, post borders, post nations
idea of just equality and liberty and egalitarian distribution of
(04:43):
resources for everyone if you eventually, if you continue democratizing
the process all the way down.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
I think that there's some truth there because, as I mentioned,
you know, we're talking about like I think Finland comes
to mind in particular, and I haven't been there, but
I've been to like Switzerland, and I've been to I've
been a bunch of places, but I know I haven't
been in Finland, but there's like rich people everywhere there,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
And so well, it's also important to remember that, like
you said, it is a capitalist society with social Yeah,
that's fair.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
That's fair.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
So even in that capitalist society with intentionally social programs,
you have a higher tax on the wealthy, you have
a higher tax businesses, and that's just necessary to fund
the social programs that are necessary for the production and
development of a sustainable society.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Now, I would not profess to have dug in as
deep as you probably have. But you know what, when
I look behind the curtain, you're absolutely right. You know,
in this country there's this weird thing. And then we're
going to switch gears. But in this country, this is
a weird thing where we people like Bernie Sanders as
(05:50):
millionaires and billionaires and to pay their fair share of taxes, right.
And then the way millionaires and billionaires push back is
they say, well, I pay the same or higher taxes
than you, you know, as a percentage of my income
or whatever. Right, And that may be true, but their
wealth is not taxed, and their capacity to borrow against
(06:11):
the wealth is not taxed, and they get to use
that and trade on this sort of imaginary money and
continue to shape further shape society in their own image.
And they don't contribute anything back. Based on the enormity
of the wealth, so their income versus their wealth, once
you get to that level, the wealth is immense, The
income is a lot, but the wealth, comparatively speaking, is
(06:34):
so immense, and that's what you're using to shape society.
And so when I learned that and I saw that
kind of not happen in a place like Finland where
they actually kind of police it a little bit better.
And then you see all these like cool bridges and
like the infrastructure is great. People can walk and their
happy kids ride bikes and everything. You know, the butterflies
flap over there a little bit more. I guess, I
(06:54):
don't know. It's like a Disney movie. Yeah, it's amazing. Man.
So that brings me to Zoron. Mom, Donnie, Okay, so
talk about him. I know that he's his name's made
the news, but for people who might have missed it,
talk about him and why he's on a role right now.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Zora Mamdani is a thirty three year old dues paying
Democratic Socialist of America member who recently won the Democratic
primary for mayor of New York City, defeating credibly accused
sexual assault Andrew Cuomo.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
And I don't know what else.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
All I do is fire shots, but yeah, Zora Mamdani
is a breath of fresh air an incredibly corrupt city
that has been dealing with democratic domination and capitalist domination
through the Democratic Party, and Zoron represents a movement towards
(07:56):
a more socially organized society, of more egalitarian means of
doing taxation, of doing public resources, of turning the public
resources to the public use through keeping buses free or
making buses free, or freezing rents, and doing public grocery stores.
I really like the public grocery store because it is
(08:18):
a nice, low level thing that will affect everyday people.
And at this point he's only doing pilot programs for it,
just to test it see how it goes. But this
is the sort of program that you would see in
those areas of the world.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
If I may, do you see what I mean about kindness,
and that moves the needle over here. Just be good
to people, like everyone has to eat, so feed them,
like it's in every Bible and whatever religious text. And
I think it's part and parcel to our human nature.
And people that go against that push back against that.
It's crazy anyway, I'm going.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Goosebumps because when Christ fed five thousand, he didn't, like,
go ask the Romans for permission first, he didn't get go,
he didn't ask what he He went and did that
for the people because that was a sort of thing,
you know. And I no longer go to church, but
I still have a lot of these you know, religious
teaching going on of course. Yeah. I think the sort
of movement there towards empathy is a feature of socialism,
(09:14):
and I think it's absolutely necessary right now, especially as
you have alt right you know, media spheres and the
Donald Trump movement literally saying that empathy is a sin
and a crime and these sorts of things. Oh okay,
I mean, yeah, I know this is an actual thing
that you see in these alt right media spheres where
they'll say empathy is a weakness. You have to cut
(09:35):
that out of your life, really, because if you're like
worried what has happening to other people, you're not going
to be able to extract as much as you can
from them.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Can I tell you something now that you've mentioned that.
So I spend a couple of years this was like
right toward the end of my time in college and
a couple of years after, where I got fixated on
what what is happiness?
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Right, I was like obsessed with it. What is happiness?
I was like kind of finding my way in the world,
and it just seemed like a noble area of study
to dive into, Right, if I can spread happiness and
get some for myself. So this time happened, Okay, I'm
reading these books, watching documentaries, going to listen to people
talk all that sort of stuff, right, And what I
(10:17):
found out, And I'm a data guy, this show is
a data show. All both of my shows are data shows.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Right.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
You deal with data so journalistically, credible, scientific method like
that sort of stuff. Right, So I'll skip all the
technical stuff. But as it turns out, when people are
happiest is when they are in service to another person.
So no matter what you do, I think that people
want to be happy. I think that we could all
(10:43):
agree on that. Nobody wakes up in the market sets well,
how can I be more miserable right now? So if
we don't want to be happy, what is born out
in the data is that you are happiest when you
do when you live your life, or you do things
in service to other people who cannot repay you, and
you don't expect to be repaid by that. So yes,
I'm trying to help you make your.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Unconditional kind unconditional like that for people like you, it's
life changing. Is the sort of movement that we need
in this world?
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Sure? Sure? Well, I mean, like I said, I I
totally understand, Like I'm not going to pretend like I
don't live in a nice house in a nice neighborhood.
I'm not going to pretend like I don't have a
Rolex and I drive a sports car and you know
that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
You got a pretty cool car out there.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Thank you. I'm not going to pretend like those things,
aren't you. And I know that you know, a uber
capitalist will will draw the connection to like capitalism has
afforded you these opportunities, right, But I know that there's
still a kind of world there. Yeah, I know that
(11:51):
there's still a world like, make no mistake, no matter
what car I have or what whatever I have, I'm
still a part of the meat that's going into the
meat grinder, right, no matter what I do, no matter
where I go. And the heartbreaking part about is my
children are too. Like I have two boys, and they
just they're just happy little spirits. They give me no grief,
they give them They're just and and they're just there.
(12:15):
As they age, they're just becoming meat for the grinder. Right.
And so I've again gotten to the point where imagining
what a better world would look like has become more
important to me. And this is part of the reason
why Bernie Sanders is a message seemed to resonate with
me because when people lead with I mean, I don't
want to get off topic here, but that it just
(12:35):
it appealed to me. I mean for our listeners. Obviously,
you know, you decide for yourself what's right for you.
But but yeah, no, I definitely appreciate mom Donnie and
what he's doing with the grocery stores, and I appreciate
kind of the spirit of the movement. I'll say, I
want to get more from you before before we go.
So let's talk about first off, Elon Musk started his
(12:58):
own party. You mentioned that the the Democratic Socialism of
America is not a political party. He just started a
new political party called the America Party or something that
I'm not mistaken. I don't know where it lies on
the political spectrum relative to like Democrats Republicans. I'd imagine
it's somewhere over there on the right. Just you know,
him not agreeing fully with what his former best friend does.
(13:22):
But what do you make of that? What are your
thoughts on that, any thoughts at all?
Speaker 2 (13:25):
My thought is that it'll probably be a failure unless
he gets someone else to take it over.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Like most of the stuff, don't. Okay, that's fair, all right,
we don't have to pontificate.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
And you say that it's likely going to lean into
that right wing populism, that guarantee empathy movement that we
were just talking about, Yeah, because that is sort of
the sphere of thought that he comes from. He is
a man incapable of empathy as far as I'm aware,
and I can only imagine that the political party he
leads would be equally lacking in empathy and good common sense.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Sure. Sure. My personal feeling is that you know, some
like him, like I. People would send me like screenshots
of his social media for a long time, and he
started to kind of delve into that super far right
wing propagandists where they take data and they call it
real data, but it lacks critical context and it lacks
historical you know, framing and so forth, and then they
(14:18):
purport that to be fact to suggest somehow that these
people are bad or these people are incapable of X,
Y and Z or whatever, and you know, it mirrored
really again far right propaganda. And then I had already
kind of lost him at that point. Then he got
on stage and did that Nazi salute a couple of times,
and then that really that really threw me. So after that,
(14:38):
I'm like, okay, it's not interesting.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
His dad, the guy who actually bought into the apartheid
He was an apartheid emerald mind owner in South Africa.
He owned and he has the blood of workers on
his hands. And his response to Elon Musk getting more
directly connected to Donald Trump was like, oh, my god,
this is great. My son and I are going to
be able to relate to each other again. He's been
(15:01):
working with these liberals for so long, I'm going to
have to cut him off. But now that he's back
to working with the conservatives and the fascists, I can
absolutely you know, break read with my son again.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
That's a little gross, but oh yeah, all right, So
talk to me about because a lot of people listen
to this show are really concerned about global events. Yeah, okay,
So Palestine is something that we talk about a lot here,
Israel and Palestine. What should people know about the Democratic
(15:35):
Socialist of America's take on what's taking place over there.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Well, because we're a democratic organization of socialists, we have
a wide variety of takes, but I will say that
the common theme with all of those is that the
Palestinian people deserve liberation and they're being oppressed by a
fascist state, and then desire a fascist state, not only
but a fascist state that is supported by the American government,
(15:59):
which is ultimately diving further and further into fascism at
all true. So, as a socialist, it is my belief
that I stand in solidarity with the oppressed peoples of
the world, and so I support unconditionally the Palestinian people's
right to liberation. And to the extent that we get asked,
does Israel have a right to exist? And you see
(16:21):
Zoron getting asked this is a gotcha question on stage,
I think he has the right answer. I think every
nation has a right to exist as a regular, non
ethno nationalist nation. I do not believe in the right
of ethno nationalist states to exist. Sure, and to the
extent that Israel is becoming more and more and more
an ethno nationalist state rather than a true democracy that
(16:44):
represents all who live within those borders. It is not
representative of the people that it actually claims to represent,
but in fact mostly just dominates.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
You know. I found out that they have free healthcare
in Israel.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Any pace for it. We do, we do, and don't
have free health. That's crazy, right, It's a colonial project
and it's being bankrolled by the colonizers of the United
States and England. And you see how it was originally
transferred as a British project where they got left guns
after World War One. The Zionists were given guns by
the British government following World War One in order to
(17:19):
do the first ethnic cleansing of Palestine, and then after
World War Two the guns were left by There were
guns left by Americans and the British as well, so
the process just got worse and worse for work.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
You know, the most heartbreaking thing about this whole thing
is that how there's the potential to speak up for
Palestinians and have that be conflated with anti Semitism, because
at least in this country, historically speaking, black people and
Jewish people have worked together to achieve a lot and
(17:53):
personally speaking, you know, I've grown up with a lot
of Jewish people and personally they know obviously that you know,
I love them, But I've seen how they can use
that narrative, not not Jewish people, but how Israel can
use that narrative to kind of well dissent and that
feels a little strange. Now, I don't want to dwell
too long to run a short on time, but for
(18:16):
a while, yeah, I figured you've got a lot of
context for it. So that's great. We're gonna have to
have you back eventually. But talk to me about well,
first off, give me a favor, Yeah, say a good
thing about capitalism.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Capitalism has expanded humanity's capacity for production in such a
way that we now have the ability to turn away
from this scarcity model and instead provide for everyone's name.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
So capitalism has run its course, I did its job,
and we're kind of in the late stages of it.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
And that is ultimately a very orthodox Marxist perspective, where
you say capitalism is one of the stages of human development,
and socialism is the one that comes after it.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Okay, And you're saying we're ready. Okay, So you're not
super mad at a country that has capitalism and strong
socialist programs.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
That is, I believe a movement on the path towards socialists.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Okay, understood, all right, So talk to me about why
socialism might push voters away in Purple states, you're from Arizona.
That's a purple state. Okay, talk to us about why
that might happen.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
I think a lot of this goes to the Red
Scare propaganda that we talked about, okay earlierly, Yeah, and
I mean, ultimately, what it is is that we've had
the wealthiest people in the world, who control the media,
who control the cultural output, who control, you know, what
billboards you see when you drive to work, who control
what hours you go to work, telling you that both
socialism and anything that represents socialism is bad. You get
(19:48):
the Red Scare where you're literally driving communists and socialists
out of government positions and blacklisting them from being able
to be in films and TV and industries and stuff
like that. In the fifties, and then once that sort
of becomes faux pas, you see them turning towards pushing
down unions and working against tenant organizing and these sort
of accoutrement socialism, these little things that remind the capitalists
(20:11):
of a more egalitarian way of doing business that they
say we can't have this, because they'll think about it
and we're like, oh my god, that's socialism. We want
more socialism. But you know, we still have firefighters and
we still have a post office for now. So like
these socialist programs, they last because they're incredibly useful. Like
once you put them in place, it's really hard to
(20:31):
you know, take them away from a people without inspiring
incredible resentment for the sure of it away. I think
I'm getting a little off topic.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
No, no, well, wherever you're leading us, this is like,
these are things you know so much that maybe some
of our listeners know this, but I certainly don't know
all this stuff. This is bright, I think.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Yeah, I love the history of it. I think it's
a really interesting thing to be able to talk.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
So I appreciate that. So let me ask you this,
give me like thirty seconds here we've been talking about socialism,
and I never asked the first question in your own words,
socialism democratic socialism. Is there a difference? If so, what
is it? Thirty seconds?
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Socialism is a societal system where everybody has what they
need to survive, where though you the sentence, the wording
is from each according to their ability, to each according
to their need. That is the core of socialism. Democratic
socialism means we're getting there through a democratic process.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Okay, Okay, so this is pretty pretty cut and dry.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
For yeah, it's not too complicated. Socialism means the working
people have control of society and get to take care
of themselves, and democratic socialism means they voted in.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Okay, last question, just yes or no answer. Is it
easy to switch from capitalism to socialism or is it difficult?
I think that it has so difficult.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
It can be difficult, but it doesn't have to be.
The reason that it's difficult is because the capitalists fight
it so much. But at the end of the day,
like the systems are there, the processes are there, the
technology is there. We just have to have the will
of the people in the revolutionary spirit.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
To do it. Okay, well, I'm confident that people are
going to want to hear more of your thoughts on
what it takes to get from here to there. Bear
in mind that we do have to have conversations like
these with other folks too. Absolutely, But you have represented
yourself well and the DSA quite well, and we appreciate
that because you know famously, you know, Q and I
(22:26):
were DJs and we started this show and we get
to learn from brilliant minds like you. We didn't we
didn't take all the history classes that you've taken, so again,
I appreciate you taking the time to come out. Once again,
Bobby Nichols, plug your social media real quick and anything
like that you want.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Let's just plug the DSA website sa USA dot org.
We have a world to win and we have room
for you in this movement.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
All right, and be sure to follow us on all
social media at Civic Cipher. I'm at ramses joh q As,
I am qwarden until next week. Y'all. Peace,
Keep on riding, would have says. We continue to broadcast
the balance and defend the discourse from the hip hop
Weekly Studios. Welcome back to Civic Cipher. I am your host,
Rams's Jah and my main man, the man with the
plan Qward. He is probably still on an airplane somewhere
over that South Dakota or something I don't know, and
(00:21):
is missing this fantastic conversation that we're having today with
the one and only Bobby Nichols, who, if you don't know,
he's the former Phoenix Democratic Socialist of America's chapter chair
and current member. He's a founder of Arizona works together
a pro union political action committee operating at the state level. Additionally,
Bobby Nichols works for the Office of the Arizona Attorney
General as a state attorney representing Arizona's Department of Child
(00:42):
Safety and Economic Security and superior and administrative court cases
involving the abuse and neglect and exploitation of minor children
and vulnerable adults. And he is not speaking in that
capacity today, That is correct. I had to help you out,
had to help you out, all right. Before we go
any further, of course, it is time to discuss Baba
becoming a better ally Baba. On today's Baba, we want
(01:05):
you to check out DSAUSA dot org. All right, I'm
going to share from their website, and of course I'm
not compelling you to do this, but if it catches
your ear, there are some resources, all right. Their website
states The Democratic Socialists of America is the largest socialist
organization in the United States with over eight hundred sorry
with only eighty thousand members and chapters in all fifty states.
They believe that working people should run both the economy
(01:28):
and society democratically to meet human needs, not to make
profits for a few. There are a political and activist organization,
not a party. Through campus and community based chapters, DSA
members use a variety of tactics, from legislative to direct action,
to fight for reforms that empower working people. The Democratic
Socialists of America is the largest socialist organization in the
United States because they are member driven mass organization. I
(01:50):
believe that working people should run both the economy and
civil society, and they show their commitment to this principle
by being an organization of by and for the working class.
We're all in together for the poor and working class
to win a better world, we must care for our neighbors,
build community, and fight alongside each other. As a working
class organization, they are funding themselves as workers. They are
(02:11):
in charge of their own liberation, and they have some
monumental tasks ahead of them, fights that they must win,
and they can't do it alone. So you can give
today because there is a world to win and a
lot more than that it seems at stake Again, if
you want to learn more, you can check out DSAUSA
dot org. That's DSA USA dot org. And you know,
(02:34):
the more that I learn about because you know, to
be fair this show, we have to talk to Republicans,
we have to talk to democrats, we have to talk
to socialists, we have to talk to you know, tea
party people. And I think that my metric on human
beings is based on kindness, and man if I don't
find a lot of kind people in the socialist movement. Man,
(02:56):
So good for you all. All right, let's get back to
the conversation. Okay, So there was something that I wanted
to ask you earlier. Oh, what would you say is
people's biggest misunderstanding about socialism?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
I think the biggest misunderstanding that people have about socialism
is that we're going to come to your house and
take your toothbrush and your car and all that real
important distinction between personal property and private property. If you
own a house, if you own a car, if you
own a toothbrush, that's your personal property. Nobody's going to
do anything with that. If you own a factory that
(03:35):
employs pennies on the dollar labor in a foreign country,
that is private property. And that is the sort of
thing that a socialist society would not allow to be
collected in the hands of one person, but would rather
be a resource for the entire society to benefit.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
So how do people get rich under socialism?
Speaker 2 (03:53):
People don't need to get rich under socialism, but they
still have the capacity to trade and work with each
other to directly. It's not a matter of having money
or not having money. It's a matter of the society
being running a way that allows for everybody to have
their needs match.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Okay, so we're thinking of wealth and the path to
wealth in a two dimensional fashion, is what you're suggesting.
There are other ways to get there under a different
societal framework.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Yeah, Because, like if you go to the grocery store
and you get everything you need and you didn't really
have to pay for it. Like that's the idea where
you've already been working and contributing to the society. Eventually
you get to this post scarcity, post borders, post nations
idea of just equality and liberty and egalitarian distribution of
(04:43):
resources for everyone if you eventually, if you continue democratizing
the process all the way down.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
I think that there's some truth there because, as I mentioned,
you know, we're talking about like I think Finland comes
to mind in particular, and I haven't been there, but
I've been to like Switzerland, and I've been to I've
been a bunch of places, but I know I haven't
been in Finland, but there's like rich people everywhere there,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
And so well, it's also important to remember that, like
you said, it is a capitalist society with social Yeah,
that's fair.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
That's fair.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
So even in that capitalist society with intentionally social programs,
you have a higher tax on the wealthy, you have
a higher tax businesses, and that's just necessary to fund
the social programs that are necessary for the production and
development of a sustainable society.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Now, I would not profess to have dug in as
deep as you probably have. But you know what, when
I look behind the curtain, you're absolutely right. You know,
in this country there's this weird thing. And then we're
going to switch gears. But in this country, this is
a weird thing where we people like Bernie Sanders as
(05:50):
millionaires and billionaires and to pay their fair share of taxes, right.
And then the way millionaires and billionaires push back is
they say, well, I pay the same or higher taxes
than you, you know, as a percentage of my income
or whatever. Right, And that may be true, but their
wealth is not taxed, and their capacity to borrow against
(06:11):
the wealth is not taxed, and they get to use
that and trade on this sort of imaginary money and
continue to shape further shape society in their own image.
And they don't contribute anything back. Based on the enormity
of the wealth, so their income versus their wealth, once
you get to that level, the wealth is immense, The
income is a lot, but the wealth, comparatively speaking, is
(06:34):
so immense, and that's what you're using to shape society.
And so when I learned that and I saw that
kind of not happen in a place like Finland where
they actually kind of police it a little bit better.
And then you see all these like cool bridges and
like the infrastructure is great. People can walk and their
happy kids ride bikes and everything. You know, the butterflies
flap over there a little bit more. I guess, I
(06:54):
don't know. It's like a Disney movie. Yeah, it's amazing. Man.
So that brings me to Zoron. Mom, Donnie, Okay, so
talk about him. I know that he's his name's made
the news, but for people who might have missed it,
talk about him and why he's on a role right now.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Zora Mamdani is a thirty three year old dues paying
Democratic Socialist of America member who recently won the Democratic
primary for mayor of New York City, defeating credibly accused
sexual assault Andrew Cuomo.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
And I don't know what else.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
All I do is fire shots, but yeah, Zora Mamdani
is a breath of fresh air an incredibly corrupt city
that has been dealing with democratic domination and capitalist domination
through the Democratic Party, and Zoron represents a movement towards
(07:56):
a more socially organized society, of more egalitarian means of
doing taxation, of doing public resources, of turning the public
resources to the public use through keeping buses free or
making buses free, or freezing rents, and doing public grocery stores.
I really like the public grocery store because it is
(08:18):
a nice, low level thing that will affect everyday people.
And at this point he's only doing pilot programs for it,
just to test it see how it goes. But this
is the sort of program that you would see in
those areas of the world.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
If I may, do you see what I mean about kindness,
and that moves the needle over here. Just be good
to people, like everyone has to eat, so feed them,
like it's in every Bible and whatever religious text. And
I think it's part and parcel to our human nature.
And people that go against that push back against that.
It's crazy anyway, I'm going.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Goosebumps because when Christ fed five thousand, he didn't, like,
go ask the Romans for permission first, he didn't get go,
he didn't ask what he He went and did that
for the people because that was a sort of thing,
you know. And I no longer go to church, but
I still have a lot of these you know, religious
teaching going on of course. Yeah. I think the sort
of movement there towards empathy is a feature of socialism,
(09:14):
and I think it's absolutely necessary right now, especially as
you have alt right you know, media spheres and the
Donald Trump movement literally saying that empathy is a sin
and a crime and these sorts of things. Oh okay,
I mean, yeah, I know this is an actual thing
that you see in these alt right media spheres where
they'll say empathy is a weakness. You have to cut
(09:35):
that out of your life, really, because if you're like
worried what has happening to other people, you're not going
to be able to extract as much as you can
from them.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Can I tell you something now that you've mentioned that.
So I spend a couple of years this was like
right toward the end of my time in college and
a couple of years after, where I got fixated on
what what is happiness?
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Right, I was like obsessed with it. What is happiness?
I was like kind of finding my way in the world,
and it just seemed like a noble area of study
to dive into, Right, if I can spread happiness and
get some for myself. So this time happened, Okay, I'm
reading these books, watching documentaries, going to listen to people
talk all that sort of stuff, right, And what I
(10:17):
found out, And I'm a data guy, this show is
a data show. All both of my shows are data shows.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Right.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
You deal with data so journalistically, credible, scientific method like
that sort of stuff. Right, So I'll skip all the
technical stuff. But as it turns out, when people are
happiest is when they are in service to another person.
So no matter what you do, I think that people
want to be happy. I think that we could all
(10:43):
agree on that. Nobody wakes up in the market sets well,
how can I be more miserable right now? So if
we don't want to be happy, what is born out
in the data is that you are happiest when you
do when you live your life, or you do things
in service to other people who cannot repay you, and
you don't expect to be repaid by that. So yes,
I'm trying to help you make your.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Unconditional kind unconditional like that for people like you, it's
life changing. Is the sort of movement that we need
in this world?
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Sure? Sure? Well, I mean, like I said, I I
totally understand, Like I'm not going to pretend like I
don't live in a nice house in a nice neighborhood.
I'm not going to pretend like I don't have a
Rolex and I drive a sports car and you know
that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
You got a pretty cool car out there.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Thank you. I'm not going to pretend like those things,
aren't you. And I know that you know, a uber
capitalist will will draw the connection to like capitalism has
afforded you these opportunities, right, But I know that there's
still a kind of world there. Yeah, I know that
(11:51):
there's still a world like, make no mistake, no matter
what car I have or what whatever I have, I'm
still a part of the meat that's going into the
meat grinder, right, no matter what I do, no matter
where I go. And the heartbreaking part about is my
children are too. Like I have two boys, and they
just they're just happy little spirits. They give me no grief,
they give them They're just and and they're just there.
(12:15):
As they age, they're just becoming meat for the grinder. Right.
And so I've again gotten to the point where imagining
what a better world would look like has become more
important to me. And this is part of the reason
why Bernie Sanders is a message seemed to resonate with
me because when people lead with I mean, I don't
want to get off topic here, but that it just
(12:35):
it appealed to me. I mean for our listeners. Obviously,
you know, you decide for yourself what's right for you.
But but yeah, no, I definitely appreciate mom Donnie and
what he's doing with the grocery stores, and I appreciate
kind of the spirit of the movement. I'll say, I
want to get more from you before before we go.
So let's talk about first off, Elon Musk started his
(12:58):
own party. You mentioned that the the Democratic Socialism of
America is not a political party. He just started a
new political party called the America Party or something that
I'm not mistaken. I don't know where it lies on
the political spectrum relative to like Democrats Republicans. I'd imagine
it's somewhere over there on the right. Just you know,
him not agreeing fully with what his former best friend does.
(13:22):
But what do you make of that? What are your
thoughts on that, any thoughts at all?
Speaker 2 (13:25):
My thought is that it'll probably be a failure unless
he gets someone else to take it over.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Like most of the stuff, don't. Okay, that's fair, all right,
we don't have to pontificate.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
And you say that it's likely going to lean into
that right wing populism, that guarantee empathy movement that we
were just talking about, Yeah, because that is sort of
the sphere of thought that he comes from. He is
a man incapable of empathy as far as I'm aware,
and I can only imagine that the political party he
leads would be equally lacking in empathy and good common sense.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Sure. Sure. My personal feeling is that you know, some
like him, like I. People would send me like screenshots
of his social media for a long time, and he
started to kind of delve into that super far right
wing propagandists where they take data and they call it
real data, but it lacks critical context and it lacks
historical you know, framing and so forth, and then they
(14:18):
purport that to be fact to suggest somehow that these
people are bad or these people are incapable of X,
Y and Z or whatever, and you know, it mirrored
really again far right propaganda. And then I had already
kind of lost him at that point. Then he got
on stage and did that Nazi salute a couple of times,
and then that really that really threw me. So after that,
(14:38):
I'm like, okay, it's not interesting.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
His dad, the guy who actually bought into the apartheid
He was an apartheid emerald mind owner in South Africa.
He owned and he has the blood of workers on
his hands. And his response to Elon Musk getting more
directly connected to Donald Trump was like, oh, my god,
this is great. My son and I are going to
be able to relate to each other again. He's been
(15:01):
working with these liberals for so long, I'm going to
have to cut him off. But now that he's back
to working with the conservatives and the fascists, I can
absolutely you know, break read with my son again.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
That's a little gross, but oh yeah, all right, So
talk to me about because a lot of people listen
to this show are really concerned about global events. Yeah, okay,
So Palestine is something that we talk about a lot here,
Israel and Palestine. What should people know about the Democratic
(15:35):
Socialist of America's take on what's taking place over there.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Well, because we're a democratic organization of socialists, we have
a wide variety of takes, but I will say that
the common theme with all of those is that the
Palestinian people deserve liberation and they're being oppressed by a
fascist state, and then desire a fascist state, not only
but a fascist state that is supported by the American government,
(15:59):
which is ultimately diving further and further into fascism at
all true. So, as a socialist, it is my belief
that I stand in solidarity with the oppressed peoples of
the world, and so I support unconditionally the Palestinian people's
right to liberation. And to the extent that we get asked,
does Israel have a right to exist? And you see
(16:21):
Zoron getting asked this is a gotcha question on stage,
I think he has the right answer. I think every
nation has a right to exist as a regular, non
ethno nationalist nation. I do not believe in the right
of ethno nationalist states to exist. Sure, and to the
extent that Israel is becoming more and more and more
an ethno nationalist state rather than a true democracy that
(16:44):
represents all who live within those borders. It is not
representative of the people that it actually claims to represent,
but in fact mostly just dominates.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
You know. I found out that they have free healthcare
in Israel.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Any pace for it. We do, we do, and don't
have free health. That's crazy, right, It's a colonial project
and it's being bankrolled by the colonizers of the United
States and England. And you see how it was originally
transferred as a British project where they got left guns
after World War One. The Zionists were given guns by
the British government following World War One in order to
(17:19):
do the first ethnic cleansing of Palestine, and then after
World War Two the guns were left by There were
guns left by Americans and the British as well, so
the process just got worse and worse for work.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
You know, the most heartbreaking thing about this whole thing
is that how there's the potential to speak up for
Palestinians and have that be conflated with anti Semitism, because
at least in this country, historically speaking, black people and
Jewish people have worked together to achieve a lot and
(17:53):
personally speaking, you know, I've grown up with a lot
of Jewish people and personally they know obviously that you know,
I love them, But I've seen how they can use
that narrative, not not Jewish people, but how Israel can
use that narrative to kind of well dissent and that
feels a little strange. Now, I don't want to dwell
too long to run a short on time, but for
(18:16):
a while, yeah, I figured you've got a lot of
context for it. So that's great. We're gonna have to
have you back eventually. But talk to me about well,
first off, give me a favor, Yeah, say a good
thing about capitalism.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Capitalism has expanded humanity's capacity for production in such a
way that we now have the ability to turn away
from this scarcity model and instead provide for everyone's name.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
So capitalism has run its course, I did its job,
and we're kind of in the late stages of it.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
And that is ultimately a very orthodox Marxist perspective, where
you say capitalism is one of the stages of human development,
and socialism is the one that comes after it.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Okay, And you're saying we're ready. Okay, So you're not
super mad at a country that has capitalism and strong
socialist programs.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
That is, I believe a movement on the path towards socialists.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Okay, understood, all right, So talk to me about why
socialism might push voters away in Purple states, you're from Arizona.
That's a purple state. Okay, talk to us about why
that might happen.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
I think a lot of this goes to the Red
Scare propaganda that we talked about, okay earlierly, Yeah, and
I mean, ultimately, what it is is that we've had
the wealthiest people in the world, who control the media,
who control the cultural output, who control, you know, what
billboards you see when you drive to work, who control
what hours you go to work, telling you that both
socialism and anything that represents socialism is bad. You get
(19:48):
the Red Scare where you're literally driving communists and socialists
out of government positions and blacklisting them from being able
to be in films and TV and industries and stuff
like that. In the fifties, and then once that sort
of becomes faux pas, you see them turning towards pushing
down unions and working against tenant organizing and these sort
of accoutrement socialism, these little things that remind the capitalists
(20:11):
of a more egalitarian way of doing business that they
say we can't have this, because they'll think about it
and we're like, oh my god, that's socialism. We want
more socialism. But you know, we still have firefighters and
we still have a post office for now. So like
these socialist programs, they last because they're incredibly useful. Like
once you put them in place, it's really hard to
(20:31):
you know, take them away from a people without inspiring
incredible resentment for the sure of it away. I think
I'm getting a little off topic.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
No, no, well, wherever you're leading us, this is like,
these are things you know so much that maybe some
of our listeners know this, but I certainly don't know
all this stuff. This is bright, I think.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Yeah, I love the history of it. I think it's
a really interesting thing to be able to talk.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
So I appreciate that. So let me ask you this,
give me like thirty seconds here we've been talking about socialism,
and I never asked the first question in your own words,
socialism democratic socialism. Is there a difference? If so, what
is it? Thirty seconds?
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Socialism is a societal system where everybody has what they
need to survive, where though you the sentence, the wording
is from each according to their ability, to each according
to their need. That is the core of socialism. Democratic
socialism means we're getting there through a democratic process.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Okay, Okay, so this is pretty pretty cut and dry.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
For yeah, it's not too complicated. Socialism means the working
people have control of society and get to take care
of themselves, and democratic socialism means they voted in.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Okay, last question, just yes or no answer. Is it
easy to switch from capitalism to socialism or is it difficult?
I think that it has so difficult.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
It can be difficult, but it doesn't have to be.
The reason that it's difficult is because the capitalists fight
it so much. But at the end of the day,
like the systems are there, the processes are there, the
technology is there. We just have to have the will
of the people in the revolutionary spirit.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
To do it. Okay, well, I'm confident that people are
going to want to hear more of your thoughts on
what it takes to get from here to there. Bear
in mind that we do have to have conversations like
these with other folks too. Absolutely, But you have represented
yourself well and the DSA quite well, and we appreciate
that because you know famously, you know, Q and I
(22:26):
were DJs and we started this show and we get
to learn from brilliant minds like you. We didn't we
didn't take all the history classes that you've taken, so again,
I appreciate you taking the time to come out. Once again,
Bobby Nichols, plug your social media real quick and anything
like that you want.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Let's just plug the DSA website sa USA dot org.
We have a world to win and we have room
for you in this movement.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
All right, and be sure to follow us on all
social media at Civic Cipher. I'm at ramses joh q As,
I am qwarden until next week. Y'all. Peace,
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