August 16, 2025 • 27 mins
Areva Martin is a Harvard-trained civil rights attorney, author, disability justice advocate, and founder of Special Needs Network. She’s on the front lines of today’s most pressing racial and social justice issues, leading the charge in California’s landmark Palm Springs reparations case and helping Black families navigate systemic barriers in special education.
In today’s conversation we cover everything from DEI rollbacks to the intersection of civil rights and disability rights. This inspirational speaker keeps us motivated as we endure a challenging administration and gives us the guidance to be effective in our collective pursuits.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ariva Martin is a Harvard trained civil rights attorney, disability
justice advocate, and founder of Special Needs Network. She is
on the frontline of today's most pressing racial and social
justice issues, leading the charge in California's landmark Palm Springs
reparations case, and helping black families navigate systemic barriers in
(00:21):
special education.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
And she is our guest today. This is Civic.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Cipher and I'm your host, Ramsey's Jah. All right, Areva Martin?
Welcome to the show. How you doing today?
Speaker 3 (00:35):
I'm doing fantastic. Thank you so much, Ramses for having.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Me, absolutely so. Obviously I gave you a brief introduction.
But for the folks that are just coming to the
table just learning about your activism, do us a favor.
What we typically do around here is we start all
our stories at the beginning. So give the folks a
little bit of your background, maybe where you grew up,
you know, what your passions are, those sorts of things,
(00:58):
so that we understand who it is we're having a
conversation with today.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
Yes, I grew up in a housing project in North
Saint Louis, so at the heart of who I am,
I'm a Midwesterner.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
I went on to college at University of Chicago.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
Then I went to Harvard Law School, then moved to
Los Angeles, where I've been practicing, where I started my
law firm, where I started my nonprofit, where I started
my work in.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
TV, in media, in advocacy. I've written four books.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
I started a nonprofit, as you indicated in the Opening
Specialties Network. I run a civil rights law firm in
Los Angeles. I actually have two daughters that graduated from
law school, and we've been working kind of in an
intergenerational space. They both are passionate about some of the
same issues I'm passionate about, which is tearing down barriers,
(01:51):
creating pathways for justice and equity for folks. They look
like us, whether it's in the healthcare space, the educational space,
using our voices, using our platforms to really ensure that
folks and underserved, underrepresented communities have a voice.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
I actually wrote a book called Make.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
It Rain, and it was all about how everyone can
use their platforms, no matter how large or how small,
to be the voice for the voiceless. So super excited
about working with my daughters. One is actually working in
my law firm. I said, the three of us are
working collectively on a media project and just trying to
reach as many folks in as many different generations as
(02:33):
possible to get them excited, to keep them excited about
this thing we call justice.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Yeah, And I've seen you've been widely celebrated for the
work that you do. You know, I was just off
the top of my head. I saw that it wasn't
too long ago, but Cherry Shepherd ended up talking about
you for some length about the work that you've done
and gave a war to you. And Cherry Shepherd is
someone that I know from growing up. She Hear and
(03:02):
my aunt her best friends. And so when I saw that,
I was like, oh my god, you know, this is.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Quite a big deal. So I see, I see the
work that you're doing.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Love, thank you. We had. Shary and I have been
friends for a while.
Speaker 4 (03:14):
Her bestie Kim Whitley's also a good friend of mine
and Sherry's son. You know, it's on the autism spectrum.
She talks about Jeffrey all the time. Jeffrey was a
camp counselor last year at a summer camp that I
run in Los Angeles, and she came and opening they
have camp talked with all the parents.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
She frequently purchased.
Speaker 4 (03:33):
A lunch for the camp counselors, and her son and
Sherry have become very much a part of our specialties
family in Los Angeles. So she uses her platform for good,
obviously entertaining millions on that daytime talk show, but also
raising awareness about issues that are important to her, like
autism advocacy.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Yeah, Now, speaking of autism advocacy, my listeners, some of
my listeners might know that I have a cousin who
is on the spectrum and he ended up coming to
Phoenix and there's a they don't like when we call
it a facility, but there's a building, I guess we'll
(04:12):
say where they work with young people who are transitioning
into adulthood on the spectrum. It's called First Place, and
they work with adults, I guess, young adults prior to
them kind of setting off on their own. And I
ended up having a conversation with the CEO about the
(04:34):
intersection of racial justice and folks on the autism spectrum,
and that intersection finds a lot of people on the
streets and homeless shelters. That intersection finds a lot of
people displaced a lot of families kind of break down
(04:57):
at that critical point. You're somebody who probably knows a
much broader view of how race and let's call it
a disability intersect. So talk to our listeners a little
bit about again that intersection of disability justice and racial justice.
Speaker 4 (05:17):
Well, one of the things that's really disheartening Ramses is
that the disability community historically has been very siloed from
the social justice community. And you think about some of
our legacy civil rights organizations NAACP, Urbanly, they too, and
I'm gonna give you know, chie them a little have
not been at the forefront of advocating for those individuals
(05:41):
who have disabilities. So when I came into the space
as a civil rights warrior, it just makes it was just,
you know, a natural for me to think about, how
do I break down some of those silos, how do
I partner with some of the legacy civil rights organizations,
which I've done in Los Angeles to Los Angeles Urbanly,
We've worked together in a partnership on an number of
different projects. I'm really proud of that work and working
(06:03):
even with Mark Morial at the national level, but also
trying to work with some of those legacy disability rights
or organizations to get them to appreciate that the disability
rights organizations in many ways exist because of pioneers in
the civil rights movement, like doctor King. So we see
the disparities start at a very young age. Particularly we
(06:25):
talked about autism, because black and brown kids with autism
are diagnosed two to four years later than their typical peers.
They often struggle to get the kind of interventions and
support that they need, and many will go undiagnosed and
will go without interventions until they are teenagers or older.
And that's where you start to see because they haven't
had the diagnosis the interventions, many may end up in
(06:48):
the juvenile justice system. So you see that, you know
the disparities that play. You know, black and brown people
in general having a more significant impact when you were
dealing with a disability. I have a board member on
my nonprofit. She's a public defender in the Los Angeles
Public Defender's Office, and we actually partnered with them some
(07:10):
years ago because she was seeing so many of her
juveniles that she had to defend as a public defender
who were kids who had some form of disability, not
necessarily autism, maybe it was a you know, dyslexia, some
kind of learning disability, some kind of emotional disturbance or
mental health issue, but it had not been diagnosed in school,
it had not been treated, and therefore they found themselves
(07:32):
in the juvenile justice system. So there's definitely a lot
of intersection in those two communities. And one of the
things I've been doing is trying to break down some
of those silos, particularly for black folks, and getting the
legacy organizations in those organizations that that work to you know,
improve the lie of black people, to recognize it also
in that demographic or black folks with a range of
(07:55):
developmental disabilities, mental health issues that will impact their quality
of life.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
I had a guest on not too long ago, and
she briefly touched on, well, you know what you just mentioned,
but in the broader conversation, she was discussing a school
to prison pipeline, and she delineated delinquent behavior from black
children from other children, particularly white children, saying that you
(08:26):
know where they misbehave and have a pattern of misbehaving.
If they're diagnosed and medicated or treated or whatever the
case is, they tend to work their way through the
traditional educational channels. But the traditional education system often rejects
(08:46):
black and brown pupils, and those pupils end up at
an extremely high rate if I'm not mistaken, in the
criminal justice system, either at that point or later in
their lives. And so I think that your point is
well made insofar as that's concern. Now, you know, there's
a I suppose a generation of women shaping public policy.
(09:12):
You know, that could be with elected officials, that could
be in the courtrooms, et cetera, that are championing equity
for black and brown families. And my understanding is that
this is the work that you're doing with your daughter,
So talk a little bit more about kind of the
broader scope of the work that you do in that regard.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
Well, definitely, we see black women, as you said, whether
they are in elected office, if they are leading nonprofit organizations,
leading civil rights organizations, social justice organizations. You know, we
are just out there organizing on the streets, you know,
whether it's marches or protests. Black women are doing our part.
(09:51):
I think, to one, we call it save our democracy
and to.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Continue to.
Speaker 4 (09:57):
Highlight the issues of despair, the equity issues that plague
our community. My daughters, you know, grew up in a
household where they watched me and their father work on
these kinds of issues, through our civil rights law practice,
through the nonprofit work that we got involved with, through
the political activism that was so much apart and continues
to be a part of our lives. So, uh, they
(10:19):
understood very early on that to who much is given,
much is expected. They worked as little kids in the
nonprofit volunteering, uh, you know, learning about how to run
a nonprofit. They worked in our law firm, learning entrepreneurship,
and just appreciating that they have a unique place in
(10:41):
this world because of the work that we have done
as parents, but that that that unique place also comes
with a lot of responsibility. And that responsibility is to
you know, use the skills, the talents, the degrees, the
platforms that they have, uh, to play it to pay
it forward. And that has been you know, that's my message.
(11:03):
I mentor a lot of women and some men, but
mostly young women who are either starting out in their careers,
those who are trying to figure out what that career
path looks like for them. And one of the things
I always tell them is, you know, it's not just
about you or you know what you do to grow
your own assets, your own investments, you know, your own
(11:24):
bank account. But what are you going to do in
this world that helps someone that is less fortunate than you,
or someone that doesn't have the access and the privilege.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
You know, I'm doing this interview.
Speaker 4 (11:38):
As I am visiting friends, spending a week on the
island Martha's Vineyard, and you know, this is August, so
you know what Martha's Vineyard looks like in August, And
so having conversations with black folks from around the country,
you know, predominantly.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
East Coasters, New Yorkers, folks in Washington, d C.
Speaker 4 (11:57):
And other parts of the East Coast, but really talking
about we are in this country, uh, you know from
a political standpoint, and the work that we have to do,
and how those of us who you know again have
a good fortune to be on this island uh at
this time. Uh, you know what our responsibility is to
be at the forefront of the movements that are going
(12:18):
to really be consequential to black folks.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Sure, I saw some some big names out there alongside
your name, so I know.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
That you're you.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
You all power players, are doing what you do best
which is be our collective.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
North star in terms of you know, folks in this.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Country, which also brings me accounted to the second part
of what I wanted to ask you, And I was
thinking about this yesterday on this show. Uh, my co
host Q and I, we both we take our activism
on the road. We travel the country. We work with
(13:02):
the legacy civil rights orgs that you mentioned.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
And more.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
You know, we were with Mark Morial in Cleveland not
too long ago, in Baltimore this was months ago, but
with the NCNW National Council for Negro Women, with Shavon
Arline Bradley and you know, and the whole bit. And
(13:27):
one of the things that we've said whenever we have
a microphone in an audience, particularly since the last election.
But this is a statement that we've long affirmed to
be true on this program is that black women are
as close to God as we can be on this earth.
It's something that we believe, and we can make a
(13:47):
moral and a scientific argument to that end. And so
when I say that black women are our north star,
and I kind of give you those flowers as it were,
we really mean that, and we really kind of get
behind that effort and hopefully compel other folks to rewire
their thinking. We don't think enough folks were able to
(14:10):
see during the last election exactly what we were.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Trying to say.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Now in terms of black women sort of leading the charge,
coming up with the strategies, you know, leading the fight
at least at present. I know that there's a lot
of things that we are still learning from black women,
and you being one of those women who is leading
that charge and coming up with the policies and kind
(14:37):
of showing us what needs to be done. You do
it from a national stage, and the rest of us
do it in our local communities. Talk to us a
bit about confronting systemic bias in other areas. I don't
want to switch gears too far, so I still want
to talk about disability policy, but also let's expand a
little bit to housing, education, etc. What is it that
(15:02):
we should know about again, confronting systemic biases and systemic
I guess, disenfranchisement in other areas of our lives.
Speaker 4 (15:12):
I think the most important thing to know is that
we can never stop. We can't give up, even in
this time that looks like all the work that we
have done, all the work that our ancestors have done
seems to be in jeopardy. I think that should fuel
us rather than discourage us. We should figure out ways.
All of us have an obligation to be thinking about
(15:33):
how we work harder and run faster, rather than retreating
and retrenching and allowing those that are in power, the
powers that be, to discourage us or to make us cower.
Because the systemic biases that we confront today are nothing,
nothing like that which our ancestors face, you know, thirty
(15:55):
forty fifty years ago. And think about all the tools,
all the resources, all the strategies, all that we have
at our disposal to confront those biases. That it is
so much more than what they had. So you think
about the tools that they had in the nineteen fifties
and the sixties to confront those racial biases. They didn't
have the benefit of podcasts and Instagram and TikTok. They
(16:18):
didn't have the benefit of being able to freely gather
in a place like Martha's Vineyard and to talk openly
and to confront openly an administration that is hostile to
African Americans.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
They didn't have the.
Speaker 4 (16:30):
Freedom to, you know, raise our voices in the way
that we do without suffering repercussions, in the way that
we saw you know, our ancestors, Juice.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
I don't think we can ever lose sight of that.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
We have to continue to push forward, even though it
may be uncomfortable, even though in this moment it may
feel like we're not making the kind of progress that
we would like to make. I think, and I continue
to encourage folks, don't stop doing the work even if
it looks like we're not making progress. Incremental progress, the building,
the foundation, building, the preparation, the strategizing, all of that
(17:06):
is so critical to you know, launching. We may not
be able to launch in a way that we want
to launch in this moment, but the pendulum that has
swung from George Floyd back to Donald Trump will swing again.
And the question is will we be ready, will we
be able to confront and you know, to deliver, because ultimately,
as you just said, whether it's it's it's black women,
(17:29):
black people that are going to I believe save this
country from itself, we always have. We've always you know,
answered the charge. We've always stood strong, We've always been
resilient and been ready, willing and able to take on
the fight, and so here we are again. So as
(17:50):
difficult as it may seem, I'm encouraged. I'm encouraged by
the voices that I see around the country who are
standing strong and who are fighting.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah, and I appreciate that. I am. We have different.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Folks on the show with different ideas of what the
present holds and what the future might hold. And had
a recent conversation with a brilliant economic mind who is
you know, widely celebrated in this country, and he had
a perspective that felt a little bleak, and he was saying, Hey,
(18:33):
you know what, nobody's coming to save us. We need
to focus on getting our money together right. And I
understand the point that he was trying to make, But
for a lot of people, that is easier said than done.
And for a lot of people, I think it misses
the nature of you know, their nature. You know, some
(18:55):
people pursue happiness, some people pursue spiritual fulfillment, some people
will pursue other things besides money. Money is absolutely important,
and I think that what you're saying today really speaks
to more humans, more homo sapien sapiens than those who
are purely motivated by fiscal interests. Another thing that I
(19:18):
say often, and I'd love your thoughts here, is that
on the scale of a country, things move very slowly.
So it is very easy for people to become disheartened
when they look back at the past four years, or
when they look ahead at the next four years, or
(19:38):
become disheartened if they see kind of on the scale
of a lifetime where things started versus where things are,
and project out into the future where things might be.
But when you take a step further back and you
look at the timeline of a country, which exists a
lot longer than a lifetime, in most cases you do progress.
(20:00):
You see two steps forward, you see one step back,
and the two steps forward might be one hundred years
worth of steps forward, and the step back might be
fifty years right. But overall, I think that further makes
your point. So again, I wanted to get your thoughts there,
because these are just things that I share with my listeners,
but obviously we want to get your insight someone who
(20:21):
has so much additional perspective to add.
Speaker 4 (20:24):
Well, I'm glad you brought up the issue of money,
because you know, different folks have different relationships with money.
And obviously money is important. And obviously, whether you're running
a political campaign or a nonprofit organization or think tank,
at the end of the day, you need money to
build infrastructure, to you know, launch a campaign. So I
(20:48):
don't want to minimize the importance of money. But obviously
everybody is not going to be in the pursuit of money,
as you just said, the way some folks are.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
And I think when we look.
Speaker 4 (20:59):
About when we look at what we have to do,
the task is so enormous, and the need for everybody
to be a part and to have all hands on
deck is so great. Everybody plays a role. Not everybody's
going to be an investor. Not everybody's going to be
an entrepreneur. They're going to be academics, they're going to
be scholars, they're going to be folks that work in
(21:19):
the media. They're going to be anthropologists, sociologists, larwors, you know, scientists.
So I don't think we should be minimizing the importance
of the roles that all of us have to play
and respect the different lanes that everyone is in. Now,
you know, one of the critiques we often hear of
the civil rights movement is that there wasn't enough emphasis
(21:41):
on economic empowerment, on you know, on finances and on
building generational wealth. And there are folks, you know, economists, investors,
finance folks, banking folks, a lot of them on the island.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
This week, this month who are doing.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
Just that, having conversations about the state of Black America
from a financial standpoint. How do we increase home ownership
amongst black folks? How do we, you know, get more
blacks to start businesses? How do we get more blacks
to think about, you know, generational wealth once those businesses
are built, you know, transferring those businesses to the next generation.
(22:17):
How do we get more blacks investing in tech in
you know, the AI Revolution. So those kinds of conversations
are happening, and there are people obviously not enough, but
but you know, the conversations to encourage more black folks
to be in those spaces are happening. But you know,
we can walk and chew gum at the same time.
So as those conversations are happening, you know, other conversations,
(22:40):
policy conversations. So Kimberly Crenshaw, you know, noted academic scholar,
She convened attorneys general from around the country. She had
about four or five in a conversation about their role,
how they were using the legal process filing lawsuits against
the current administration to challenge some of these cool and
(23:02):
harsh policies that we see, particularly around immigration, we see
around education and healthcare. So I just think we're a great,
big tempt and everybody can play a role as we
try to advance.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
You know, the causes of black.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
People, sure, sure, And if I may, I want to
add a note here for folks that might take that
to heart that during the civil rights movement, you know,
we weren't paying enough attention to economics. My understanding of
that moment in time is that there was this sort
(23:40):
of critical process in place. We had to deal with
the social issues in order to deal with the economic issues.
And it was right around the time when doctor King's
focus started to shift. You'd accomplished some great things and
this focus started to shift to money. And when you
have a money conversation, you have a lot of poor
people that can come to the table have that conversation.
(24:01):
And indeed that was why he was in Memphis, and
that was around the time when he was or that
was the time when he was assassinated, and so I
don't want to knock our ancestors having led the charge.
I think they just had a critical process and by
the time they got to the point to have a
conversation about money, there were enough people that were you know,
(24:25):
it's one thing to share a water fountain with you
and to sit down and across the diner and you
can eat at the same diner as me. It's another
thing to come for my money, to come for the
war that was taking place at the time. So I
just I don't I don't want to. I want to
make sure that people have a little bit more context there.
But yes, indeed there were some people that you know,
and duly noted that the economics of that time weren't
(24:46):
yet a part of the conversation.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
I think that's probably the best way to frame that.
Speaker 4 (24:50):
So no, I mean, I just want to say this,
and what I say to those folks who were critical
of the civil rights leaders who believe that, you know,
they kind of dropped the ball when it came to
the issue of money and finances is you know, justice
and equality were never going to be won in one generation,
so they could not do everything. They paid the way
(25:12):
they opened the door, and then each successive uh, you
know generation has an obligation to take the baton and
move it forward.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
So I'm not.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
About critiquing what those leaders did, because it's nothing short
of miraculous what they did. And now the question we
should all be asking ourselves is what are we doing
to move the baton further? So, if we believed that
there was something left out of that process in the
fifties or sixties, the question should be, how are we
making sure that we are stepping in that gap, filling
(25:42):
that void and moving the you know, the conversation, the
issue of justice and equality, you know, further to the
you know that we are doing our part in terms
of advancing this work because it's easy to critique and
point the fingers that was someone else didn't do, But
it's a whole lot harder to roll up your sleeves
(26:04):
and make the kind of sacrifices that we know that
those leaders may to continue to do this work.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
I think we stayed. Of course, we cannot allow.
Speaker 4 (26:15):
This administration to wipe away the gains that we have
made in this country over the last fifty years.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
We can't run, we can't hide, we can't cower.
Speaker 4 (26:24):
We can't capitulate, we can't kiss the ring, because one
man has essentially decided that white supremacy is the order
of the day. And let's be real clear that DEI
and the rollbacks on DEI is all about a white
supremacy narrative that has been percolating under the scenes, or
(26:45):
you know, you could say slowly perculating and gaining traction
in the form of a Donald Trump administration. There are
people in this country, white people in particular, who are
afraid to death the browning of this country.
Ariva Martin is a Harvard trained civil rights attorney, disability
justice advocate, and founder of Special Needs Network. She is
on the frontline of today's most pressing racial and social
justice issues, leading the charge in California's landmark Palm Springs
reparations case, and helping black families navigate systemic barriers in
(00:21):
special education.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
And she is our guest today. This is Civic.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Cipher and I'm your host, Ramsey's Jah. All right, Areva Martin?
Welcome to the show. How you doing today?
Speaker 3 (00:35):
I'm doing fantastic. Thank you so much, Ramses for having.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Me, absolutely so. Obviously I gave you a brief introduction.
But for the folks that are just coming to the
table just learning about your activism, do us a favor.
What we typically do around here is we start all
our stories at the beginning. So give the folks a
little bit of your background, maybe where you grew up,
you know, what your passions are, those sorts of things,
(00:58):
so that we understand who it is we're having a
conversation with today.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
Yes, I grew up in a housing project in North
Saint Louis, so at the heart of who I am,
I'm a Midwesterner.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
I went on to college at University of Chicago.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
Then I went to Harvard Law School, then moved to
Los Angeles, where I've been practicing, where I started my
law firm, where I started my nonprofit, where I started
my work in.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
TV, in media, in advocacy. I've written four books.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
I started a nonprofit, as you indicated in the Opening
Specialties Network. I run a civil rights law firm in
Los Angeles. I actually have two daughters that graduated from
law school, and we've been working kind of in an
intergenerational space. They both are passionate about some of the
same issues I'm passionate about, which is tearing down barriers,
(01:51):
creating pathways for justice and equity for folks. They look
like us, whether it's in the healthcare space, the educational space,
using our voices, using our platforms to really ensure that
folks and underserved, underrepresented communities have a voice.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
I actually wrote a book called Make.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
It Rain, and it was all about how everyone can
use their platforms, no matter how large or how small,
to be the voice for the voiceless. So super excited
about working with my daughters. One is actually working in
my law firm. I said, the three of us are
working collectively on a media project and just trying to
reach as many folks in as many different generations as
(02:33):
possible to get them excited, to keep them excited about
this thing we call justice.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Yeah, And I've seen you've been widely celebrated for the
work that you do. You know, I was just off
the top of my head. I saw that it wasn't
too long ago, but Cherry Shepherd ended up talking about
you for some length about the work that you've done
and gave a war to you. And Cherry Shepherd is
someone that I know from growing up. She Hear and
(03:02):
my aunt her best friends. And so when I saw that,
I was like, oh my god, you know, this is.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Quite a big deal. So I see, I see the
work that you're doing.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Love, thank you. We had. Shary and I have been
friends for a while.
Speaker 4 (03:14):
Her bestie Kim Whitley's also a good friend of mine
and Sherry's son. You know, it's on the autism spectrum.
She talks about Jeffrey all the time. Jeffrey was a
camp counselor last year at a summer camp that I
run in Los Angeles, and she came and opening they
have camp talked with all the parents.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
She frequently purchased.
Speaker 4 (03:33):
A lunch for the camp counselors, and her son and
Sherry have become very much a part of our specialties
family in Los Angeles. So she uses her platform for good,
obviously entertaining millions on that daytime talk show, but also
raising awareness about issues that are important to her, like
autism advocacy.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Yeah, Now, speaking of autism advocacy, my listeners, some of
my listeners might know that I have a cousin who
is on the spectrum and he ended up coming to
Phoenix and there's a they don't like when we call
it a facility, but there's a building, I guess we'll
(04:12):
say where they work with young people who are transitioning
into adulthood on the spectrum. It's called First Place, and
they work with adults, I guess, young adults prior to
them kind of setting off on their own. And I
ended up having a conversation with the CEO about the
(04:34):
intersection of racial justice and folks on the autism spectrum,
and that intersection finds a lot of people on the
streets and homeless shelters. That intersection finds a lot of
people displaced a lot of families kind of break down
(04:57):
at that critical point. You're somebody who probably knows a
much broader view of how race and let's call it
a disability intersect. So talk to our listeners a little
bit about again that intersection of disability justice and racial justice.
Speaker 4 (05:17):
Well, one of the things that's really disheartening Ramses is
that the disability community historically has been very siloed from
the social justice community. And you think about some of
our legacy civil rights organizations NAACP, Urbanly, they too, and
I'm gonna give you know, chie them a little have
not been at the forefront of advocating for those individuals
(05:41):
who have disabilities. So when I came into the space
as a civil rights warrior, it just makes it was just,
you know, a natural for me to think about, how
do I break down some of those silos, how do
I partner with some of the legacy civil rights organizations,
which I've done in Los Angeles to Los Angeles Urbanly,
We've worked together in a partnership on an number of
different projects. I'm really proud of that work and working
(06:03):
even with Mark Morial at the national level, but also
trying to work with some of those legacy disability rights
or organizations to get them to appreciate that the disability
rights organizations in many ways exist because of pioneers in
the civil rights movement, like doctor King. So we see
the disparities start at a very young age. Particularly we
(06:25):
talked about autism, because black and brown kids with autism
are diagnosed two to four years later than their typical peers.
They often struggle to get the kind of interventions and
support that they need, and many will go undiagnosed and
will go without interventions until they are teenagers or older.
And that's where you start to see because they haven't
had the diagnosis the interventions, many may end up in
(06:48):
the juvenile justice system. So you see that, you know
the disparities that play. You know, black and brown people
in general having a more significant impact when you were
dealing with a disability. I have a board member on
my nonprofit. She's a public defender in the Los Angeles
Public Defender's Office, and we actually partnered with them some
(07:10):
years ago because she was seeing so many of her
juveniles that she had to defend as a public defender
who were kids who had some form of disability, not
necessarily autism, maybe it was a you know, dyslexia, some
kind of learning disability, some kind of emotional disturbance or
mental health issue, but it had not been diagnosed in school,
it had not been treated, and therefore they found themselves
(07:32):
in the juvenile justice system. So there's definitely a lot
of intersection in those two communities. And one of the
things I've been doing is trying to break down some
of those silos, particularly for black folks, and getting the
legacy organizations in those organizations that that work to you know,
improve the lie of black people, to recognize it also
in that demographic or black folks with a range of
(07:55):
developmental disabilities, mental health issues that will impact their quality
of life.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
I had a guest on not too long ago, and
she briefly touched on, well, you know what you just mentioned,
but in the broader conversation, she was discussing a school
to prison pipeline, and she delineated delinquent behavior from black
children from other children, particularly white children, saying that you
(08:26):
know where they misbehave and have a pattern of misbehaving.
If they're diagnosed and medicated or treated or whatever the
case is, they tend to work their way through the
traditional educational channels. But the traditional education system often rejects
(08:46):
black and brown pupils, and those pupils end up at
an extremely high rate if I'm not mistaken, in the
criminal justice system, either at that point or later in
their lives. And so I think that your point is
well made insofar as that's concern. Now, you know, there's
a I suppose a generation of women shaping public policy.
(09:12):
You know, that could be with elected officials, that could
be in the courtrooms, et cetera, that are championing equity
for black and brown families. And my understanding is that
this is the work that you're doing with your daughter,
So talk a little bit more about kind of the
broader scope of the work that you do in that regard.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
Well, definitely, we see black women, as you said, whether
they are in elected office, if they are leading nonprofit organizations,
leading civil rights organizations, social justice organizations. You know, we
are just out there organizing on the streets, you know,
whether it's marches or protests. Black women are doing our part.
(09:51):
I think, to one, we call it save our democracy
and to.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Continue to.
Speaker 4 (09:57):
Highlight the issues of despair, the equity issues that plague
our community. My daughters, you know, grew up in a
household where they watched me and their father work on
these kinds of issues, through our civil rights law practice,
through the nonprofit work that we got involved with, through
the political activism that was so much apart and continues
to be a part of our lives. So, uh, they
(10:19):
understood very early on that to who much is given,
much is expected. They worked as little kids in the
nonprofit volunteering, uh, you know, learning about how to run
a nonprofit. They worked in our law firm, learning entrepreneurship,
and just appreciating that they have a unique place in
(10:41):
this world because of the work that we have done
as parents, but that that that unique place also comes
with a lot of responsibility. And that responsibility is to
you know, use the skills, the talents, the degrees, the
platforms that they have, uh, to play it to pay
it forward. And that has been you know, that's my message.
(11:03):
I mentor a lot of women and some men, but
mostly young women who are either starting out in their careers,
those who are trying to figure out what that career
path looks like for them. And one of the things
I always tell them is, you know, it's not just
about you or you know what you do to grow
your own assets, your own investments, you know, your own
(11:24):
bank account. But what are you going to do in
this world that helps someone that is less fortunate than you,
or someone that doesn't have the access and the privilege.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
You know, I'm doing this interview.
Speaker 4 (11:38):
As I am visiting friends, spending a week on the
island Martha's Vineyard, and you know, this is August, so
you know what Martha's Vineyard looks like in August, And
so having conversations with black folks from around the country,
you know, predominantly.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
East Coasters, New Yorkers, folks in Washington, d C.
Speaker 4 (11:57):
And other parts of the East Coast, but really talking
about we are in this country, uh, you know from
a political standpoint, and the work that we have to do,
and how those of us who you know again have
a good fortune to be on this island uh at
this time. Uh, you know what our responsibility is to
be at the forefront of the movements that are going
(12:18):
to really be consequential to black folks.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Sure, I saw some some big names out there alongside
your name, so I know.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
That you're you.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
You all power players, are doing what you do best
which is be our collective.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
North star in terms of you know, folks in this.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Country, which also brings me accounted to the second part
of what I wanted to ask you, And I was
thinking about this yesterday on this show. Uh, my co
host Q and I, we both we take our activism
on the road. We travel the country. We work with
(13:02):
the legacy civil rights orgs that you mentioned.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
And more.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
You know, we were with Mark Morial in Cleveland not
too long ago, in Baltimore this was months ago, but
with the NCNW National Council for Negro Women, with Shavon
Arline Bradley and you know, and the whole bit. And
(13:27):
one of the things that we've said whenever we have
a microphone in an audience, particularly since the last election.
But this is a statement that we've long affirmed to
be true on this program is that black women are
as close to God as we can be on this earth.
It's something that we believe, and we can make a
(13:47):
moral and a scientific argument to that end. And so
when I say that black women are our north star,
and I kind of give you those flowers as it were,
we really mean that, and we really kind of get
behind that effort and hopefully compel other folks to rewire
their thinking. We don't think enough folks were able to
(14:10):
see during the last election exactly what we were.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Trying to say.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Now in terms of black women sort of leading the charge,
coming up with the strategies, you know, leading the fight
at least at present. I know that there's a lot
of things that we are still learning from black women,
and you being one of those women who is leading
that charge and coming up with the policies and kind
(14:37):
of showing us what needs to be done. You do
it from a national stage, and the rest of us
do it in our local communities. Talk to us a
bit about confronting systemic bias in other areas. I don't
want to switch gears too far, so I still want
to talk about disability policy, but also let's expand a
little bit to housing, education, etc. What is it that
(15:02):
we should know about again, confronting systemic biases and systemic
I guess, disenfranchisement in other areas of our lives.
Speaker 4 (15:12):
I think the most important thing to know is that
we can never stop. We can't give up, even in
this time that looks like all the work that we
have done, all the work that our ancestors have done
seems to be in jeopardy. I think that should fuel
us rather than discourage us. We should figure out ways.
All of us have an obligation to be thinking about
(15:33):
how we work harder and run faster, rather than retreating
and retrenching and allowing those that are in power, the
powers that be, to discourage us or to make us cower.
Because the systemic biases that we confront today are nothing,
nothing like that which our ancestors face, you know, thirty
(15:55):
forty fifty years ago. And think about all the tools,
all the resources, all the strategies, all that we have
at our disposal to confront those biases. That it is
so much more than what they had. So you think
about the tools that they had in the nineteen fifties
and the sixties to confront those racial biases. They didn't
have the benefit of podcasts and Instagram and TikTok. They
(16:18):
didn't have the benefit of being able to freely gather
in a place like Martha's Vineyard and to talk openly
and to confront openly an administration that is hostile to
African Americans.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
They didn't have the.
Speaker 4 (16:30):
Freedom to, you know, raise our voices in the way
that we do without suffering repercussions, in the way that
we saw you know, our ancestors, Juice.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
I don't think we can ever lose sight of that.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
We have to continue to push forward, even though it
may be uncomfortable, even though in this moment it may
feel like we're not making the kind of progress that
we would like to make. I think, and I continue
to encourage folks, don't stop doing the work even if
it looks like we're not making progress. Incremental progress, the building,
the foundation, building, the preparation, the strategizing, all of that
(17:06):
is so critical to you know, launching. We may not
be able to launch in a way that we want
to launch in this moment, but the pendulum that has
swung from George Floyd back to Donald Trump will swing again.
And the question is will we be ready, will we
be able to confront and you know, to deliver, because ultimately,
as you just said, whether it's it's it's black women,
(17:29):
black people that are going to I believe save this
country from itself, we always have. We've always you know,
answered the charge. We've always stood strong, We've always been
resilient and been ready, willing and able to take on
the fight, and so here we are again. So as
(17:50):
difficult as it may seem, I'm encouraged. I'm encouraged by
the voices that I see around the country who are
standing strong and who are fighting.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah, and I appreciate that. I am. We have different.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Folks on the show with different ideas of what the
present holds and what the future might hold. And had
a recent conversation with a brilliant economic mind who is
you know, widely celebrated in this country, and he had
a perspective that felt a little bleak, and he was saying, Hey,
(18:33):
you know what, nobody's coming to save us. We need
to focus on getting our money together right. And I
understand the point that he was trying to make, But
for a lot of people, that is easier said than done.
And for a lot of people, I think it misses
the nature of you know, their nature. You know, some
(18:55):
people pursue happiness, some people pursue spiritual fulfillment, some people
will pursue other things besides money. Money is absolutely important,
and I think that what you're saying today really speaks
to more humans, more homo sapien sapiens than those who
are purely motivated by fiscal interests. Another thing that I
(19:18):
say often, and I'd love your thoughts here, is that
on the scale of a country, things move very slowly.
So it is very easy for people to become disheartened
when they look back at the past four years, or
when they look ahead at the next four years, or
(19:38):
become disheartened if they see kind of on the scale
of a lifetime where things started versus where things are,
and project out into the future where things might be.
But when you take a step further back and you
look at the timeline of a country, which exists a
lot longer than a lifetime, in most cases you do progress.
(20:00):
You see two steps forward, you see one step back,
and the two steps forward might be one hundred years
worth of steps forward, and the step back might be
fifty years right. But overall, I think that further makes
your point. So again, I wanted to get your thoughts there,
because these are just things that I share with my listeners,
but obviously we want to get your insight someone who
(20:21):
has so much additional perspective to add.
Speaker 4 (20:24):
Well, I'm glad you brought up the issue of money,
because you know, different folks have different relationships with money.
And obviously money is important. And obviously, whether you're running
a political campaign or a nonprofit organization or think tank,
at the end of the day, you need money to
build infrastructure, to you know, launch a campaign. So I
(20:48):
don't want to minimize the importance of money. But obviously
everybody is not going to be in the pursuit of money,
as you just said, the way some folks are.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
And I think when we look.
Speaker 4 (20:59):
About when we look at what we have to do,
the task is so enormous, and the need for everybody
to be a part and to have all hands on
deck is so great. Everybody plays a role. Not everybody's
going to be an investor. Not everybody's going to be
an entrepreneur. They're going to be academics, they're going to
be scholars, they're going to be folks that work in
(21:19):
the media. They're going to be anthropologists, sociologists, larwors, you know, scientists.
So I don't think we should be minimizing the importance
of the roles that all of us have to play
and respect the different lanes that everyone is in. Now,
you know, one of the critiques we often hear of
the civil rights movement is that there wasn't enough emphasis
(21:41):
on economic empowerment, on you know, on finances and on
building generational wealth. And there are folks, you know, economists, investors,
finance folks, banking folks, a lot of them on the island.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
This week, this month who are doing.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
Just that, having conversations about the state of Black America
from a financial standpoint. How do we increase home ownership
amongst black folks? How do we, you know, get more
blacks to start businesses? How do we get more blacks
to think about, you know, generational wealth once those businesses
are built, you know, transferring those businesses to the next generation.
(22:17):
How do we get more blacks investing in tech in
you know, the AI Revolution. So those kinds of conversations
are happening, and there are people obviously not enough, but
but you know, the conversations to encourage more black folks
to be in those spaces are happening. But you know,
we can walk and chew gum at the same time.
So as those conversations are happening, you know, other conversations,
(22:40):
policy conversations. So Kimberly Crenshaw, you know, noted academic scholar,
She convened attorneys general from around the country. She had
about four or five in a conversation about their role,
how they were using the legal process filing lawsuits against
the current administration to challenge some of these cool and
(23:02):
harsh policies that we see, particularly around immigration, we see
around education and healthcare. So I just think we're a great,
big tempt and everybody can play a role as we
try to advance.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
You know, the causes of black.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
People, sure, sure, And if I may, I want to
add a note here for folks that might take that
to heart that during the civil rights movement, you know,
we weren't paying enough attention to economics. My understanding of
that moment in time is that there was this sort
(23:40):
of critical process in place. We had to deal with
the social issues in order to deal with the economic issues.
And it was right around the time when doctor King's
focus started to shift. You'd accomplished some great things and
this focus started to shift to money. And when you
have a money conversation, you have a lot of poor
people that can come to the table have that conversation.
(24:01):
And indeed that was why he was in Memphis, and
that was around the time when he was or that
was the time when he was assassinated, and so I
don't want to knock our ancestors having led the charge.
I think they just had a critical process and by
the time they got to the point to have a
conversation about money, there were enough people that were you know,
(24:25):
it's one thing to share a water fountain with you
and to sit down and across the diner and you
can eat at the same diner as me. It's another
thing to come for my money, to come for the
war that was taking place at the time. So I
just I don't I don't want to. I want to
make sure that people have a little bit more context there.
But yes, indeed there were some people that you know,
and duly noted that the economics of that time weren't
(24:46):
yet a part of the conversation.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
I think that's probably the best way to frame that.
Speaker 4 (24:50):
So no, I mean, I just want to say this,
and what I say to those folks who were critical
of the civil rights leaders who believe that, you know,
they kind of dropped the ball when it came to
the issue of money and finances is you know, justice
and equality were never going to be won in one generation,
so they could not do everything. They paid the way
(25:12):
they opened the door, and then each successive uh, you
know generation has an obligation to take the baton and
move it forward.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
So I'm not.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
About critiquing what those leaders did, because it's nothing short
of miraculous what they did. And now the question we
should all be asking ourselves is what are we doing
to move the baton further? So, if we believed that
there was something left out of that process in the
fifties or sixties, the question should be, how are we
making sure that we are stepping in that gap, filling
(25:42):
that void and moving the you know, the conversation, the
issue of justice and equality, you know, further to the
you know that we are doing our part in terms
of advancing this work because it's easy to critique and
point the fingers that was someone else didn't do, But
it's a whole lot harder to roll up your sleeves
(26:04):
and make the kind of sacrifices that we know that
those leaders may to continue to do this work.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
I think we stayed. Of course, we cannot allow.
Speaker 4 (26:15):
This administration to wipe away the gains that we have
made in this country over the last fifty years.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
We can't run, we can't hide, we can't cower.
Speaker 4 (26:24):
We can't capitulate, we can't kiss the ring, because one
man has essentially decided that white supremacy is the order
of the day. And let's be real clear that DEI
and the rollbacks on DEI is all about a white
supremacy narrative that has been percolating under the scenes, or
(26:45):
you know, you could say slowly perculating and gaining traction
in the form of a Donald Trump administration. There are
people in this country, white people in particular, who are
afraid to death the browning of this country.
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