July 12, 2025 • 27 mins
Today’s guest is Bobby Nichols—the former Phoenix Democratic Socialist of America's chapter chair and current member. He is the founder of Arizona Works Together, a pro-union political action committee operating at the state level. Additionally, Bobby Nichols works for the Office of the Arizona Attorney General as a state attorney representing Arizona's Departments of Child Safety and Economic Security in Superior and Administrative Court cases involving the abuse, neglect, and exploitation of minor children and vulnerable adults.
In the first half of the show, Bobby explains socialism in simple terms and provides a historical context for the societal framework.
Support the show: https://www.patreon.com/civiccipher?utm_source=search
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Broadcasting from the Hip Hop Weekly Studios. I'd like to
welcome you to another episode of Civic Cipher, where our
mission is to foster allyship empathy and understanding. I am
your host, Rams's job. Big shout out to my partner
in crime, my co host q Ward, who is on
an airplane right now and he will be landing and
very upset that he's going to miss today's conversation. But
(00:23):
have no fear he will be back in the saddle
next week to bring you more of what you know
and love. But in the meantime, we have a gentleman
by the name of Bobby Nichols. Bobby Nichols is the
former Phoenix Democratic Socialist of America's Chapter chair and current member.
He is the founder of Arizona Works Together, a pro
union political action committee operating at the state level. Additionally,
(00:43):
Bobby Nichols works for the Office of the Arizona Attorney
General as a state attorney, representing Arizona's Departments of Child
Safety and Economic Security in superior and administrative court cases
involving the abuse, neglect, and exploitation of minor children and
vulnerable adults. Man, that is a mouthful but welcome to
the show man. We appreciate you taking the time for us.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Saying you very much. I appreciate the time, and I
just want to make very clear that I am not
here in my official Attorney General's capacity. I am only
here as a private citizen and activist and an organizer
and a democratic social.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
We've absolutely heard that before, and as you've heard, he's
going to be talking to us about democratic socialism, about
socialism and giving us sort of a maybe a crash
course or a one on one level course of what
socialism is, because I think the fear of socialism and
(01:37):
socialist programs has caused us perhaps to move politically in
a direction that doesn't really benefit the most people. And
that fear is fear is often based in ignorance, and
so if indeed that is the case, we are going
to drive out that ignorance with a conversation with you today.
(01:57):
So we appreciate you taking the time to hang out
with But as always around here, we like to start
off with some ebony excellence, and today's ebony excellence comes
from black enterprise. The National Hockey League's recent draft highlighted
increasing diversity within the sport. How about that marking a
notable shift in a league where just three years ago,
eighty four percent of players, coaches, and front office staff
(02:20):
were white. And twenty twenty three, the NHL launched its
version of NASCAR's Drive for Diversity campaign, the Hockey Diversity Alliance,
a group whose seeds were planted in the wake of
the twenty twenty murders of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor.
The initial chairs of the group were former NHL players
p K. Saban and Anson Carter, both of whom are black.
The aim of the group is to create a more
(02:42):
inclusive and welcoming environment so that one of the NHL's slogans,
Hockey is for Everyone, is more than an advertising campaign
on Draft night. The work that the Diversity Alliance has
put in over the last two years bore fruit, as
more than twenty future NHL players from diverse backgrounds were
selected in the NHL Draft. So I, uh, I love
(03:03):
this and and and to be FAIRQ talk to me
about this. Uh. He had a weird flight schedule, as
I mentioned, so just didn't time out. He had to
he got bumped. So he could give you a lot
more context on all things sports related. Because I'm famously
not the sports guy. He's he's I'm the music guy.
He's music and sports. But but as far as uh, diversity,
(03:26):
I think this is one of those examples that shows
people that diversity is a good thing. And in order
to get true diversity, like in its fullness, you need equity. Uh.
And then those things lead to inclusion. And so the
NHL now can look forward to, in my estimation, more
fans of diverse backgrounds, and the league and the and
(03:48):
the sport growing because of their inclusive efforts. And so
shout out to the NHL. I never thought I'd say that,
but uh, there we are talking about him all right.
Now it is time for us to move to the
of the hour. Okay, So Bobby Nichols socialism, socialism, socialism.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Well, okay, here's a good fault.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
No, I don't think we're gonna go lie. So, so
most people know Bernie Sanders, right, maybe not everybody knows
that Bernie Sanders is not a Democrat. He considers himself
a democratic socialist. If I'm if I'm not mistaken, that's correct. Okay, So,
so before we get to what his specific delineating language, uh,
(04:39):
exp what what that means? Let's talk about kind of
a base level understanding of socialism. What is socialism?
Speaker 2 (04:46):
So it's important to establish up front that we currently
live under a different system socialism called capitalism, which is
a system where the wealthiest of the wealthy, the owners
of the businesses and the means of production, as would
call it, are the ones who get to decide how
you work, when you work, and where the money goes.
They're the ones who get to determine who has the
(05:08):
ability to move up in society and who has the
ability to acceed in their level in society. And I
realize just now that I'm rambling a little bit there,
but let me kind of bring it back to that. Ultimately,
what socialism is is an economic system where the workers
control the production that they create over time.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
So does that mean that in a socialist framework that
people don't own businesses?
Speaker 2 (05:34):
That is not necessarily the case it kind of socialist framework.
If you're working in a business, then you own a
part of that business. If you're working in a society,
you own a part of that society. It is essentially
the democratization of every single aspect of society, from the
business to the home, to the armies to the governments
(05:57):
and trying to establish that egalitarian system all way down.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Sure, Sure, I'm thinking like shares of the business. Is
this the way that ownership is is manifested? Like like
right now, if I work for let's say iHeartMedia, and
I can have shares in the company because of my employment,
I don't have to buy them separately. Is it is similar?
And I think it other way.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
I'm sort of inspired by socialism. You might say, in
a socialist system, iHeartRadio is owned by the people, and
the people determine through the state how it is going
to be, ok and where that profit is.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
So there's no there's no like Nasdaq or Doubt like
those sorts of things.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Those sorts of things wouldn't have the same level of
influence in a socialist society. Okay, ultimately, because again, the
profit motive that drives our current society would not be
what drives a socialist society.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Okay. So I'm going to get ahead of myself. But
I saw an interview with Bernie Sanders, and this was
an old interview from a long time though, and it
stayed with me because I never really thought of it
in this way. And I'm interested to get your thoughts here.
But the interviewer asked Bernie Sanders, who is probably the
most famous socialist that many people know about, and people
(07:17):
love this guy. I love I wish I could have
voti FORR.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
You have the highest approval rating in the country.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
I bet he does, yeah, and he seems like such
a kind man. But anyway, the interviewer asked, Bernie Sanders,
do you believe that I'm going to be paraphrasing so
effectually what he was saying was, do you believe that
people are motivated by profit, like inherently motivated by profit,
(07:49):
because that's kind of what we I guess see, And
Bernie Sanders said something to the effect of, no, I
don't believe that. I believe that people will cooperate even
if they're not motivated by profit. I think that the
spirit of cooperating, like he said way more eloquently. And
I wish I had the interview so I could play
a sound clip for you. But it was just brilliant.
And I never thought of anything outside of money make
(08:12):
the people move before.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Yes, So I think that's a really interesting point that
gets into the history of our society. And I think
people assume that this profit motive. This bartering system idea
goes all the way back to ancient history, and in fact,
it just kind of doesn't. Industrial capitalism, the system that
we have right now where business owners and not just
(08:34):
business owners, but like the owners of the business owners,
the people who are running not just the shops, but
the factories that produce the glomerate and the chocolic conglomerates. Yeah,
that system developed in sixteenth century England as a result
of the Industrial Revolution, in a society that was insulated
enough to have a nobility that could take on feudal
(08:55):
powers much earlier than they could and say France or
Austria or Germany, which happened later in the eighteen hundreds.
But you go to England in the fifteen hundreds and
sixteen hundreds with the civil war that eventually drove out
who were the people at the time. We were known
as Puritans, but you know, crazy religious people that we
think of. But at the time they had the idea
of universal male suffrage and these other sort of democratic
(09:18):
ideas that have become a lot of the basis of
more modern thoughts about egalitarian society and egalitarian governance that
draw those people were driven out of England as a
result of having lost a civil war against feudal society
against the kings, and ultimately what ended up happening was
(09:39):
they set up new societies in the new world, and
not the new World. Obviously. They were colonizing the new
world and extracting the most profit that they could from
the new world for the purpose of enriching themselves, which
they viewed as they're like God given right. You go
back before that, though, you go back into ancient times.
You go back even into feudal Europe and the areas
where the kings didn't have nearly as much as thought.
(10:00):
Already you have communes being set up where peasants are
making food for themselves and governing themselves, and the goods
are distributed and kind rather than held by one person
paid for by another person's labor. So rather than having
a system where people rent labor to the owners of
a field, let's say, to get their bread at the
end of the day, the field has been owned by
(10:21):
everyone for as long as anybody can remember. It goes
back into time of memorial before records were written down
that my father and his father and his father and
his father all tilled this field all worked this land,
and it wasn't until kings and feudal knights and lords
came in and oppressed people that we started to see
these class delineations within that agrarian society. And it is
(10:43):
ultimately the dream of the oppressed to become the oppressor,
and so as a merchant class rises up. And that's
obviously not fully true, it's just another it's just another
statement part in my language. But the the motive that
people have ultimately is too in my opinion, to live
(11:04):
good lives, to our children, to eat good food, to
enjoy the time that they spend with their family and
their friends and their community, to not feel as though
they have someone looking down their neck at all times.
That is represented in this society by having money, by
being able to go out and do whatever you want,
Like you can't do that unless you own the business
or you work at the business. They're not able to
(11:26):
do that. Otherwise in a socialist society we're looking at
we're not trying to retract and go back to an agrarian, feudalist,
peasant commune society. We recognize that capitalism has brought progress
in production. It has brought us to the place where
we can if the modes of production and the means
of production we're given over to people rather than for
(11:50):
purposes other than profit, we could enter a society that
didn't have scarcity. We don't have to have homelessness. We
have far more empty homes than we do homeless people,
but they're all owned by Blackrock, and you can't give
any profit by giving them way to homeless people. Sure,
and in the same way, you know, we have plenty
of money in the government, but it's all owned by
(12:10):
Black Rock, and so it would be better if it
goes to bombing children in Gaza or destroying neighborhoods that
aren't being gentrified yet so that they can continue to
upsell the luxury apartments, like Trump's actually thinking about building
luxury apartments in Gaza in the same way that they're
building luxury apartments in the neighborhoods that they've bull dozed
over the years in America. And I think I missed
(12:32):
the question a little bit.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
No, I think that we all needed that that is
a foundational framework for this, because you know, a lot
of folks, when you think of things like socialism, capitalism, communism,
they feel for I think for a lot of folks,
(12:53):
they feel like intimidating, right, And I think people's in
like I'm talking regular people that wake up, they got
to wake up to more on go to work, and
then they got to be somewhere at ten and you know,
and they got to get their kid. You know, those
people that they hear these terms, for those terms to
actually start to live in their minds and then to
(13:14):
begin to be able to imagine a reality where things
don't feel the way that they feel right now, because
there's a lot of people I'm sure that feel tremendous
pressure just living their lives and they don't know where
the pressure is coming from. I gotta pay these bills,
I got it. Why is life so hard?
Speaker 2 (13:35):
You know?
Speaker 1 (13:35):
And they don't. They're just it's just the way it is.
So I appreciate the little bit of the history life.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
And if I could say one last thing on that,
I think there's a really great quote by the author
Ursula Kila Gwen who speaks a lot about science fiction
being a tool for critiquing modern society rather than like
any sort of prediction about what the future is going
to be. And her quote, I love this quote is
(14:00):
we live under capitalism and its power seems inescapable, but
so did the divine right of kings. This is just
another human made political system that we live under now.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
So while we're here, and I know we're super duper
off script, but talk to the person listening to this
conversation who has come to fear socialism like a bad word.
Talk to that person and say to that person, here's
what socialism can do for you, and here's what capitalism
(14:34):
has taken from you. Say that to the person listening.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
And I want to start by validating that fear, because
we live in a society that has had on nearly
one hundred years now of anti socialist, anti communists, anti progressive,
anti leftist propaganda, first inspired by the maccarthyis Red scare
coming out of World War Two, and then even before that,
(14:57):
when the business owners, even though they were sending money
to Lenin and Stalin and the Bolsheviks when they were
fighting the Tsars in Russia even then recognize that this
was going to be a threat to their domination over society.
So first things first, the way that you're feeling, if
you're afraid of the word socialism, is not invalid, and
you're not alone. It has become scary to a lot
(15:18):
of people, and it's because we've been told over and
over and over that it's scary. I can't tell you
how many movies from the eighties just had ambiguous, red
wearing socialists as the bad guys, and that cultural impact
sticks with people. But I think what we're seeing today
is all of the things that people fearmongered about socialism
have come to pass under capitalism. We have breadlines, we
(15:43):
have incredible homelessness, we have inability to get medical care.
We have a society where if you want to go
to school, you have to fight in the army. We
already have these things that they were saying would happen
under socialism. We've seen shortages of the grocery stores, results
of catastrophes. We just recently saw the government's inability to
(16:04):
take care of people in Texas or to respond to
crises as a result of bureaucratics slashing and cutting and inefficiencies.
That is what capitalism has done for us. The idea
that the capitalists have built this incredible society, even in
my opinion, is inaccurate because I haven't seen Jeff Bezos
(16:25):
ever print a shirt I don't think Mark Zuckerberg himself
has done any of the coating in the last fifteen years.
And I'm positive that Elon Musk has not contributed anything
valuable to his companies at any period. Potentially some emerald
diamond stolen from the workers of South Africa and the
people of South Africa.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Fire.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
I'm happy to keep firing this.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Yeah, yeah, we're not stop.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
So what I would say then, is what can socialism
do for people? That last point, socialism can reorient society
in a way that works for everyone. Again, we're talking
about the democratization of everything. So unions in your workplace,
that's an example of socialism fighting for your rights in
(17:10):
terms of your ability to have an eight hour work day,
having a the ability to organize, having the ability to
ask for higher wages and collectively bargain there. Those are
things that were won by anarchists and socialists in the
earlier days.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
I knew that that, yeah, yeah, you know, And that's
that's one of our one of the things that has
really like changed American society and change society around the world.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
You know, we're talking about the over you think even
recently I heard you talking about Cuba a little bit.
Cuba's ability to develop vaccines during COVID was one of
the most impressive and impactful things for the Latin America
and South America and every country other than you know,
the United States essentially who was willing to take those
vaccines and actually like help people because Cuba has spent
(17:58):
a lot of time building up a medical society and
a medical system that actually works for everyone instead of
what we have here, which is a medical society and
medical profession that is designed to be for profit at
the end of the day.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
So while we're talking about Cuba, do us a favor
still talking to the listener that's just come into the
conversation about socialism, right, give some examples, and let's be fair,
give some examples of socialist governments that have failed the people,
and give some examples of socialist governments that have delivered
(18:33):
for the people, and discussed the difference between them, just
because I think most people would start by saying, I
pick whatever country that has you know, no resources and
everybody starving, and they say, well, socialism will lead us there,
so help us.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yeah, And I mean it's important to recognize that there
are historical failures of planning that have been involved a
lot lot of the times with newly revolutionized socialist societies.
So you look at both China and the USSR at
the very early stages of their five year plans when
(19:10):
they start putting out these large agrarian reforms, there's not
a lot of you know, foresight or planning or knowledge
from the revolutionary side about how to run these farm systems,
and they come into it with a lot of enthusiasm
for democratizing the process, though it can result in when
coupled with historic famines that are coming in at the
(19:31):
same time, you know, tragedies across the country, and so
those things are you know, those things happen. There's real
crises that have arisen in socialist societies. There are also
socialist societies and societies that claim to be socialists that
have done more to oppress human rights and they have
to uplift them, and that's something that you have to
acknowledge with like North Korea and even to some extent
(19:54):
China and the USSR as well, Like these are places
that have developed political systems, but in the same same
way that in America you see an aggressive social pushback
against socialism or cultural pushbackat socialism. In these socialist countries,
you often see a very strong cultural pushback against capitalism
and the liberalism real it comes with capitalism.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Yeah, and so you liberalism comes with capitalism.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Really, the concept of liberal capitalism is one of the
things that was brought over by the Puritans, originally in
a way to separate themselves from the feudalist societies and
establish what they believed to be a more meritocratic system.
So like universal mail seffrage was a Puritanist idea. The
(20:42):
idea that the kings wouldn't be able to just arrest
anybody they wanted was brought over in that era. And
these are not people who were by any means wanting
to build socialist societies or even equitable societies. Like these
were slave owners, and these were profiteers and colonizers, and
they still thought that they should have democracy. And so
(21:03):
the idea that was invented there was this liberalism. And
so when you see in the French Revolution is another
good example of this, it's a liberal revolution driven by
the bourgeoisie. Is a bourgeois revolution that is in the
bourgeoisie is it literally translates to like the town dwellers.
What it was was a merchant class that had developed
(21:24):
itself first in southern Europe and then a little bit
up in the Nordic areas as like the cities of
Vienna and oh there's one more up in I can't
remember what the one in Germany was called. But essentially,
like these societies were organized where merchants would have, you know,
republican ideals and they would have a republican representation. Republican
(21:46):
meaning like they would organize themselves into little groups and
then they would pick a representative and they would have
a republic based on those little groups. The concept of
liberalism rose at the same time and hand in hand
with the right of capitalism, and it was following that,
following the betrayal of the workers by the liberals, that
(22:06):
the ideas of socialism really split at that point. So
what you see in the French Revolution especially is the
bourgeois playing to the workers. They know they can't overthrow
the kings if they just take the few merchants that
are there, go out into the cities and build barricades.
They need the workers on their side because they're going
to have to grind society to a halt. Otherwise, the
(22:29):
King's just going to take over their shops and they're
going to have nothing left.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Oh okay, So how about this. You mentioned a few countries.
I think that one of the countries that comes up
a lot, at least in my travels is Venezuela. Yeah, okay,
as a failed socialist state. And I think you've kind
of provided a framework of how socialism can fail. You've
certainly provided a framework of how capitalism can fail to people.
(22:58):
But I heard something recently that the Nazis were socialists.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
So what do you say to people who equate the
Democratic Socialist of America movement with the Nazi Party.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
So the first thing I say to that is that
is Nazi propaganda. The Nazi Party was referred to itself
as the National Socialist Party for the explicit purpose of
cannibalizing legitimate socialist movements that were gaining popularity around Europe,
going back way before World War One, even to eighteen
(23:38):
forty eight, and the liberal revolutions that eventually became socialist
revolutions and led to the Paris Commune, which was ultimately
crushed by the reactionary Bismarck out of Prussia, forming Germany, etc.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Then you know your history.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
I love the history of the staff. This is the
stuff I can go on forever. Sure, what was the question.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
That I was supposed to be So when people say, oh, yeah,
the Nazis right.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
So Hitler recognized that socialism was popular, and Mussolini also
recognized that socialism was popular. Mussolini was originally a socialist
who betrayed the movement for his own vaninglorious reasons, and
ultimately the development of fascism mirrored the development of socialism
because it is intentionally designed to quash socialism, to quash workers' movements,
(24:24):
to quash all of these.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
Societal So they just basically like got the They just
grabbed that so that the actual socialists couldn't grab it exactly. Okay.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
They did it to corrupt the name the movement, and
it was historically successful because you know, people still have
this association. But what I would also say, then, is
who are the first people that the Nazis took off
the streets? It was a socialist and the communists and
the anarchis the first people who ended up in the
concentration change.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
I was reading that poem that they say where they.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Said first they came for the communist.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Yes, that one. They First they came for the communists,
but I wasn't a communist, so.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
I said nothing.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Then they came for the socialists. You know, there's a
socialist and I said nothing. That they came for the anarchists.
I wasn't an anarchist, and they said nothing. Then they
came the yeah, and it goes on it.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
And then and then they came for me and there
was no one to speak for me exactly. So funny
how history hilarious? Isn't that funny? All right? So listen,
people getting snatched off the streets doesn't matter if it's
affecting your family. You speak up because you want them
to speak up for you. I tell you what. While
you're listening to me, you know, the reason the show
exists is because non black people came out in twenty
(25:35):
twenty and I saw them with my own eyes, with
these eyes right here, I held them with these arms.
They supported me. Man, I share this stage with all
those people when they needed I don't forget all right,
quick question, give me like thirty seconds. Okay, what made
you want to join the Democrat Democratic Socialist Party of America?
Speaker 2 (25:58):
So, first thing, Democratic Socialist of my is not formally
a political party, Okay, we're more of an activist organization
who thinks of itself as the home for socialists, which
can be more broadly described than we're going into right now.
I decided to join because I believe that people deserve
to have some level of control over their lives, and
I think that requires a level of control over the economy,
(26:20):
over the society, and over the democratic process. Those are
things that are denied to us under capitalism and they
are available to us under socialism. And I like democracy,
so they're democratic socialism.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
There you go, Okay, I'll take that. You know, people
point to like a lot of the Nordic countries as
being the best places to live with people are the happiest,
and to be fair, a lot of those countries are
capitalist countries, but they have really strong socialist programs and
they really do mirror a lot of I think the
or at least they capture kind of the premise of
(26:51):
a lot of what socialism stands for, and through that lens,
I think it's a lot easier to imagine a better world.
So I appreciate you helping paint that picture pro able
of it.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Yeah,
Broadcasting from the Hip Hop Weekly Studios. I'd like to
welcome you to another episode of Civic Cipher, where our
mission is to foster allyship empathy and understanding. I am
your host, Rams's job. Big shout out to my partner
in crime, my co host q Ward, who is on
an airplane right now and he will be landing and
very upset that he's going to miss today's conversation. But
(00:23):
have no fear he will be back in the saddle
next week to bring you more of what you know
and love. But in the meantime, we have a gentleman
by the name of Bobby Nichols. Bobby Nichols is the
former Phoenix Democratic Socialist of America's Chapter chair and current member.
He is the founder of Arizona Works Together, a pro
union political action committee operating at the state level. Additionally,
(00:43):
Bobby Nichols works for the Office of the Arizona Attorney
General as a state attorney, representing Arizona's Departments of Child
Safety and Economic Security in superior and administrative court cases
involving the abuse, neglect, and exploitation of minor children and
vulnerable adults. Man, that is a mouthful but welcome to
the show man. We appreciate you taking the time for us.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Saying you very much. I appreciate the time, and I
just want to make very clear that I am not
here in my official Attorney General's capacity. I am only
here as a private citizen and activist and an organizer
and a democratic social.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
We've absolutely heard that before, and as you've heard, he's
going to be talking to us about democratic socialism, about
socialism and giving us sort of a maybe a crash
course or a one on one level course of what
socialism is, because I think the fear of socialism and
(01:37):
socialist programs has caused us perhaps to move politically in
a direction that doesn't really benefit the most people. And
that fear is fear is often based in ignorance, and
so if indeed that is the case, we are going
to drive out that ignorance with a conversation with you today.
(01:57):
So we appreciate you taking the time to hang out
with But as always around here, we like to start
off with some ebony excellence, and today's ebony excellence comes
from black enterprise. The National Hockey League's recent draft highlighted
increasing diversity within the sport. How about that marking a
notable shift in a league where just three years ago,
eighty four percent of players, coaches, and front office staff
(02:20):
were white. And twenty twenty three, the NHL launched its
version of NASCAR's Drive for Diversity campaign, the Hockey Diversity Alliance,
a group whose seeds were planted in the wake of
the twenty twenty murders of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor.
The initial chairs of the group were former NHL players
p K. Saban and Anson Carter, both of whom are black.
The aim of the group is to create a more
(02:42):
inclusive and welcoming environment so that one of the NHL's slogans,
Hockey is for Everyone, is more than an advertising campaign
on Draft night. The work that the Diversity Alliance has
put in over the last two years bore fruit, as
more than twenty future NHL players from diverse backgrounds were
selected in the NHL Draft. So I, uh, I love
(03:03):
this and and and to be FAIRQ talk to me
about this. Uh. He had a weird flight schedule, as
I mentioned, so just didn't time out. He had to
he got bumped. So he could give you a lot
more context on all things sports related. Because I'm famously
not the sports guy. He's he's I'm the music guy.
He's music and sports. But but as far as uh, diversity,
(03:26):
I think this is one of those examples that shows
people that diversity is a good thing. And in order
to get true diversity, like in its fullness, you need equity. Uh.
And then those things lead to inclusion. And so the
NHL now can look forward to, in my estimation, more
fans of diverse backgrounds, and the league and the and
(03:48):
the sport growing because of their inclusive efforts. And so
shout out to the NHL. I never thought I'd say that,
but uh, there we are talking about him all right.
Now it is time for us to move to the
of the hour. Okay, So Bobby Nichols socialism, socialism, socialism.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Well, okay, here's a good fault.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
No, I don't think we're gonna go lie. So, so
most people know Bernie Sanders, right, maybe not everybody knows
that Bernie Sanders is not a Democrat. He considers himself
a democratic socialist. If I'm if I'm not mistaken, that's correct. Okay, So,
so before we get to what his specific delineating language, uh,
(04:39):
exp what what that means? Let's talk about kind of
a base level understanding of socialism. What is socialism?
Speaker 2 (04:46):
So it's important to establish up front that we currently
live under a different system socialism called capitalism, which is
a system where the wealthiest of the wealthy, the owners
of the businesses and the means of production, as would
call it, are the ones who get to decide how
you work, when you work, and where the money goes.
They're the ones who get to determine who has the
(05:08):
ability to move up in society and who has the
ability to acceed in their level in society. And I
realize just now that I'm rambling a little bit there,
but let me kind of bring it back to that. Ultimately,
what socialism is is an economic system where the workers
control the production that they create over time.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
So does that mean that in a socialist framework that
people don't own businesses?
Speaker 2 (05:34):
That is not necessarily the case it kind of socialist framework.
If you're working in a business, then you own a
part of that business. If you're working in a society,
you own a part of that society. It is essentially
the democratization of every single aspect of society, from the
business to the home, to the armies to the governments
(05:57):
and trying to establish that egalitarian system all way down.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Sure, Sure, I'm thinking like shares of the business. Is
this the way that ownership is is manifested? Like like
right now, if I work for let's say iHeartMedia, and
I can have shares in the company because of my employment,
I don't have to buy them separately. Is it is similar?
And I think it other way.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
I'm sort of inspired by socialism. You might say, in
a socialist system, iHeartRadio is owned by the people, and
the people determine through the state how it is going
to be, ok and where that profit is.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
So there's no there's no like Nasdaq or Doubt like
those sorts of things.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Those sorts of things wouldn't have the same level of
influence in a socialist society. Okay, ultimately, because again, the
profit motive that drives our current society would not be
what drives a socialist society.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Okay. So I'm going to get ahead of myself. But
I saw an interview with Bernie Sanders, and this was
an old interview from a long time though, and it
stayed with me because I never really thought of it
in this way. And I'm interested to get your thoughts here.
But the interviewer asked Bernie Sanders, who is probably the
most famous socialist that many people know about, and people
(07:17):
love this guy. I love I wish I could have
voti FORR.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
You have the highest approval rating in the country.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
I bet he does, yeah, and he seems like such
a kind man. But anyway, the interviewer asked, Bernie Sanders,
do you believe that I'm going to be paraphrasing so
effectually what he was saying was, do you believe that
people are motivated by profit, like inherently motivated by profit,
(07:49):
because that's kind of what we I guess see, And
Bernie Sanders said something to the effect of, no, I
don't believe that. I believe that people will cooperate even
if they're not motivated by profit. I think that the
spirit of cooperating, like he said way more eloquently. And
I wish I had the interview so I could play
a sound clip for you. But it was just brilliant.
And I never thought of anything outside of money make
(08:12):
the people move before.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Yes, So I think that's a really interesting point that
gets into the history of our society. And I think
people assume that this profit motive. This bartering system idea
goes all the way back to ancient history, and in fact,
it just kind of doesn't. Industrial capitalism, the system that
we have right now where business owners and not just
(08:34):
business owners, but like the owners of the business owners,
the people who are running not just the shops, but
the factories that produce the glomerate and the chocolic conglomerates. Yeah,
that system developed in sixteenth century England as a result
of the Industrial Revolution, in a society that was insulated
enough to have a nobility that could take on feudal
(08:55):
powers much earlier than they could and say France or
Austria or Germany, which happened later in the eighteen hundreds.
But you go to England in the fifteen hundreds and
sixteen hundreds with the civil war that eventually drove out
who were the people at the time. We were known
as Puritans, but you know, crazy religious people that we
think of. But at the time they had the idea
of universal male suffrage and these other sort of democratic
(09:18):
ideas that have become a lot of the basis of
more modern thoughts about egalitarian society and egalitarian governance that
draw those people were driven out of England as a
result of having lost a civil war against feudal society
against the kings, and ultimately what ended up happening was
(09:39):
they set up new societies in the new world, and
not the new World. Obviously. They were colonizing the new
world and extracting the most profit that they could from
the new world for the purpose of enriching themselves, which
they viewed as they're like God given right. You go
back before that, though, you go back into ancient times.
You go back even into feudal Europe and the areas
where the kings didn't have nearly as much as thought.
(10:00):
Already you have communes being set up where peasants are
making food for themselves and governing themselves, and the goods
are distributed and kind rather than held by one person
paid for by another person's labor. So rather than having
a system where people rent labor to the owners of
a field, let's say, to get their bread at the
end of the day, the field has been owned by
(10:21):
everyone for as long as anybody can remember. It goes
back into time of memorial before records were written down
that my father and his father and his father and
his father all tilled this field all worked this land,
and it wasn't until kings and feudal knights and lords
came in and oppressed people that we started to see
these class delineations within that agrarian society. And it is
(10:43):
ultimately the dream of the oppressed to become the oppressor,
and so as a merchant class rises up. And that's
obviously not fully true, it's just another it's just another
statement part in my language. But the the motive that
people have ultimately is too in my opinion, to live
(11:04):
good lives, to our children, to eat good food, to
enjoy the time that they spend with their family and
their friends and their community, to not feel as though
they have someone looking down their neck at all times.
That is represented in this society by having money, by
being able to go out and do whatever you want,
Like you can't do that unless you own the business
or you work at the business. They're not able to
(11:26):
do that. Otherwise in a socialist society we're looking at
we're not trying to retract and go back to an agrarian, feudalist,
peasant commune society. We recognize that capitalism has brought progress
in production. It has brought us to the place where
we can if the modes of production and the means
of production we're given over to people rather than for
(11:50):
purposes other than profit, we could enter a society that
didn't have scarcity. We don't have to have homelessness. We
have far more empty homes than we do homeless people,
but they're all owned by Blackrock, and you can't give
any profit by giving them way to homeless people. Sure,
and in the same way, you know, we have plenty
of money in the government, but it's all owned by
(12:10):
Black Rock, and so it would be better if it
goes to bombing children in Gaza or destroying neighborhoods that
aren't being gentrified yet so that they can continue to
upsell the luxury apartments, like Trump's actually thinking about building
luxury apartments in Gaza in the same way that they're
building luxury apartments in the neighborhoods that they've bull dozed
over the years in America. And I think I missed
(12:32):
the question a little bit.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
No, I think that we all needed that that is
a foundational framework for this, because you know, a lot
of folks, when you think of things like socialism, capitalism, communism,
they feel for I think for a lot of folks,
(12:53):
they feel like intimidating, right, And I think people's in
like I'm talking regular people that wake up, they got
to wake up to more on go to work, and
then they got to be somewhere at ten and you know,
and they got to get their kid. You know, those
people that they hear these terms, for those terms to
actually start to live in their minds and then to
(13:14):
begin to be able to imagine a reality where things
don't feel the way that they feel right now, because
there's a lot of people I'm sure that feel tremendous
pressure just living their lives and they don't know where
the pressure is coming from. I gotta pay these bills,
I got it. Why is life so hard?
Speaker 2 (13:35):
You know?
Speaker 1 (13:35):
And they don't. They're just it's just the way it is.
So I appreciate the little bit of the history life.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
And if I could say one last thing on that,
I think there's a really great quote by the author
Ursula Kila Gwen who speaks a lot about science fiction
being a tool for critiquing modern society rather than like
any sort of prediction about what the future is going
to be. And her quote, I love this quote is
(14:00):
we live under capitalism and its power seems inescapable, but
so did the divine right of kings. This is just
another human made political system that we live under now.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
So while we're here, and I know we're super duper
off script, but talk to the person listening to this
conversation who has come to fear socialism like a bad word.
Talk to that person and say to that person, here's
what socialism can do for you, and here's what capitalism
(14:34):
has taken from you. Say that to the person listening.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
And I want to start by validating that fear, because
we live in a society that has had on nearly
one hundred years now of anti socialist, anti communists, anti progressive,
anti leftist propaganda, first inspired by the maccarthyis Red scare
coming out of World War Two, and then even before that,
(14:57):
when the business owners, even though they were sending money
to Lenin and Stalin and the Bolsheviks when they were
fighting the Tsars in Russia even then recognize that this
was going to be a threat to their domination over society.
So first things first, the way that you're feeling, if
you're afraid of the word socialism, is not invalid, and
you're not alone. It has become scary to a lot
(15:18):
of people, and it's because we've been told over and
over and over that it's scary. I can't tell you
how many movies from the eighties just had ambiguous, red
wearing socialists as the bad guys, and that cultural impact
sticks with people. But I think what we're seeing today
is all of the things that people fearmongered about socialism
have come to pass under capitalism. We have breadlines, we
(15:43):
have incredible homelessness, we have inability to get medical care.
We have a society where if you want to go
to school, you have to fight in the army. We
already have these things that they were saying would happen
under socialism. We've seen shortages of the grocery stores, results
of catastrophes. We just recently saw the government's inability to
(16:04):
take care of people in Texas or to respond to
crises as a result of bureaucratics slashing and cutting and inefficiencies.
That is what capitalism has done for us. The idea
that the capitalists have built this incredible society, even in
my opinion, is inaccurate because I haven't seen Jeff Bezos
(16:25):
ever print a shirt I don't think Mark Zuckerberg himself
has done any of the coating in the last fifteen years.
And I'm positive that Elon Musk has not contributed anything
valuable to his companies at any period. Potentially some emerald
diamond stolen from the workers of South Africa and the
people of South Africa.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Fire.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
I'm happy to keep firing this.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Yeah, yeah, we're not stop.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
So what I would say then, is what can socialism
do for people? That last point, socialism can reorient society
in a way that works for everyone. Again, we're talking
about the democratization of everything. So unions in your workplace,
that's an example of socialism fighting for your rights in
(17:10):
terms of your ability to have an eight hour work day,
having a the ability to organize, having the ability to
ask for higher wages and collectively bargain there. Those are
things that were won by anarchists and socialists in the
earlier days.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
I knew that that, yeah, yeah, you know, And that's
that's one of our one of the things that has
really like changed American society and change society around the world.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
You know, we're talking about the over you think even
recently I heard you talking about Cuba a little bit.
Cuba's ability to develop vaccines during COVID was one of
the most impressive and impactful things for the Latin America
and South America and every country other than you know,
the United States essentially who was willing to take those
vaccines and actually like help people because Cuba has spent
(17:58):
a lot of time building up a medical society and
a medical system that actually works for everyone instead of
what we have here, which is a medical society and
medical profession that is designed to be for profit at
the end of the day.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
So while we're talking about Cuba, do us a favor
still talking to the listener that's just come into the
conversation about socialism, right, give some examples, and let's be fair,
give some examples of socialist governments that have failed the people,
and give some examples of socialist governments that have delivered
(18:33):
for the people, and discussed the difference between them, just
because I think most people would start by saying, I
pick whatever country that has you know, no resources and
everybody starving, and they say, well, socialism will lead us there,
so help us.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yeah, And I mean it's important to recognize that there
are historical failures of planning that have been involved a
lot lot of the times with newly revolutionized socialist societies.
So you look at both China and the USSR at
the very early stages of their five year plans when
(19:10):
they start putting out these large agrarian reforms, there's not
a lot of you know, foresight or planning or knowledge
from the revolutionary side about how to run these farm systems,
and they come into it with a lot of enthusiasm
for democratizing the process, though it can result in when
coupled with historic famines that are coming in at the
(19:31):
same time, you know, tragedies across the country, and so
those things are you know, those things happen. There's real
crises that have arisen in socialist societies. There are also
socialist societies and societies that claim to be socialists that
have done more to oppress human rights and they have
to uplift them, and that's something that you have to
acknowledge with like North Korea and even to some extent
(19:54):
China and the USSR as well, Like these are places
that have developed political systems, but in the same same
way that in America you see an aggressive social pushback
against socialism or cultural pushbackat socialism. In these socialist countries,
you often see a very strong cultural pushback against capitalism
and the liberalism real it comes with capitalism.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Yeah, and so you liberalism comes with capitalism.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Really, the concept of liberal capitalism is one of the
things that was brought over by the Puritans, originally in
a way to separate themselves from the feudalist societies and
establish what they believed to be a more meritocratic system.
So like universal mail seffrage was a Puritanist idea. The
(20:42):
idea that the kings wouldn't be able to just arrest
anybody they wanted was brought over in that era. And
these are not people who were by any means wanting
to build socialist societies or even equitable societies. Like these
were slave owners, and these were profiteers and colonizers, and
they still thought that they should have democracy. And so
(21:03):
the idea that was invented there was this liberalism. And
so when you see in the French Revolution is another
good example of this, it's a liberal revolution driven by
the bourgeoisie. Is a bourgeois revolution that is in the
bourgeoisie is it literally translates to like the town dwellers.
What it was was a merchant class that had developed
(21:24):
itself first in southern Europe and then a little bit
up in the Nordic areas as like the cities of
Vienna and oh there's one more up in I can't
remember what the one in Germany was called. But essentially,
like these societies were organized where merchants would have, you know,
republican ideals and they would have a republican representation. Republican
(21:46):
meaning like they would organize themselves into little groups and
then they would pick a representative and they would have
a republic based on those little groups. The concept of
liberalism rose at the same time and hand in hand
with the right of capitalism, and it was following that,
following the betrayal of the workers by the liberals, that
(22:06):
the ideas of socialism really split at that point. So
what you see in the French Revolution especially is the
bourgeois playing to the workers. They know they can't overthrow
the kings if they just take the few merchants that
are there, go out into the cities and build barricades.
They need the workers on their side because they're going
to have to grind society to a halt. Otherwise, the
(22:29):
King's just going to take over their shops and they're
going to have nothing left.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Oh okay, So how about this. You mentioned a few countries.
I think that one of the countries that comes up
a lot, at least in my travels is Venezuela. Yeah, okay,
as a failed socialist state. And I think you've kind
of provided a framework of how socialism can fail. You've
certainly provided a framework of how capitalism can fail to people.
(22:58):
But I heard something recently that the Nazis were socialists.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
So what do you say to people who equate the
Democratic Socialist of America movement with the Nazi Party.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
So the first thing I say to that is that
is Nazi propaganda. The Nazi Party was referred to itself
as the National Socialist Party for the explicit purpose of
cannibalizing legitimate socialist movements that were gaining popularity around Europe,
going back way before World War One, even to eighteen
(23:38):
forty eight, and the liberal revolutions that eventually became socialist
revolutions and led to the Paris Commune, which was ultimately
crushed by the reactionary Bismarck out of Prussia, forming Germany, etc.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Then you know your history.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
I love the history of the staff. This is the
stuff I can go on forever. Sure, what was the question.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
That I was supposed to be So when people say, oh, yeah,
the Nazis right.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
So Hitler recognized that socialism was popular, and Mussolini also
recognized that socialism was popular. Mussolini was originally a socialist
who betrayed the movement for his own vaninglorious reasons, and
ultimately the development of fascism mirrored the development of socialism
because it is intentionally designed to quash socialism, to quash workers' movements,
(24:24):
to quash all of these.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
Societal So they just basically like got the They just
grabbed that so that the actual socialists couldn't grab it exactly. Okay.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
They did it to corrupt the name the movement, and
it was historically successful because you know, people still have
this association. But what I would also say, then, is
who are the first people that the Nazis took off
the streets? It was a socialist and the communists and
the anarchis the first people who ended up in the
concentration change.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
I was reading that poem that they say where they.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Said first they came for the communist.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Yes, that one. They First they came for the communists,
but I wasn't a communist, so.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
I said nothing.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Then they came for the socialists. You know, there's a
socialist and I said nothing. That they came for the anarchists.
I wasn't an anarchist, and they said nothing. Then they
came the yeah, and it goes on it.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
And then and then they came for me and there
was no one to speak for me exactly. So funny
how history hilarious? Isn't that funny? All right? So listen,
people getting snatched off the streets doesn't matter if it's
affecting your family. You speak up because you want them
to speak up for you. I tell you what. While
you're listening to me, you know, the reason the show
exists is because non black people came out in twenty
(25:35):
twenty and I saw them with my own eyes, with
these eyes right here, I held them with these arms.
They supported me. Man, I share this stage with all
those people when they needed I don't forget all right,
quick question, give me like thirty seconds. Okay, what made
you want to join the Democrat Democratic Socialist Party of America?
Speaker 2 (25:58):
So, first thing, Democratic Socialist of my is not formally
a political party, Okay, we're more of an activist organization
who thinks of itself as the home for socialists, which
can be more broadly described than we're going into right now.
I decided to join because I believe that people deserve
to have some level of control over their lives, and
I think that requires a level of control over the economy,
(26:20):
over the society, and over the democratic process. Those are
things that are denied to us under capitalism and they
are available to us under socialism. And I like democracy,
so they're democratic socialism.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
There you go, Okay, I'll take that. You know, people
point to like a lot of the Nordic countries as
being the best places to live with people are the happiest,
and to be fair, a lot of those countries are
capitalist countries, but they have really strong socialist programs and
they really do mirror a lot of I think the
or at least they capture kind of the premise of
(26:51):
a lot of what socialism stands for, and through that lens,
I think it's a lot easier to imagine a better world.
So I appreciate you helping paint that picture pro able
of it.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Yeah,
Popular Podcasts
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!