October 19, 2022 • 29 mins
Producers Kevin Huffman and Lisa Gray check in with St. Mary’s Law coach AJ Bellido de Luna and former student Andy Vizcarra. You’ll hear some of their personal experiences about being followed by the podcast production team, reflections on upsetting moments during last season’s tournaments, and exciting current news about the team.
Learn more about the schools, programs and special guests:
St. Mary's University Law School
Texas Young Lawyers Association
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Visit our show page for transcripts and more details about the series at ClassActionPod.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Class Action is a production of I Heart Radio and
Sound Argument. So hello everyone, I'm Kevin Huffman and I'm Lisa,
and you're listening to a special bonus podcast with two
of our favorite people, A J. Belieta de Luna and
and this Kara from St. Mary's or formerly from St.
(00:23):
Mary's University. So I wanted to just kick it off
by asking the two of you just to reflect a
little bit. Either one reflect a little bit about the
series and you know what was your reaction? How did
it work for you? Well, let me just begin by saying,
Hi Kevin, Hi Lisa, and of course Hi Andy. I
(00:45):
have missed you so much this year. So my first
reflection is the obvious. You know, when you guys came
here and you brought the crew and the boom mix
and if you might remember orientation, the hunting down, the
steps in the crowd, cheering and h you know, that
was a kind of our first recording that we had.
(01:07):
And then you were everywhere and nowhere at the same time,
and we kind of forgot that you were there. But
now I remember that you're not there, and I actually
miss you. So thank you for having the bonus coverage
because that gives us a chance to to reconnect. For me,
(01:27):
you know, there were so many phone calls and emails
and the wow I didn't know from people. I was
shocked by that. I was shocked that we were trending
of Canada. It was just really humbling for me to
be a part of this, more so because you did
such an amazing job highlighting my students and what they
were going through. And I think I've told this to
(01:48):
the dean. I thought that I was pretty much in
touch what was going on with our students. I knew
that they were working hard. I knew what we were
putting them through. It was difficult. I knew it was
a good purpose for were it. I don't think I
really knew, you know, what I learned in the podcast,
because there was a lot more that was going on.
And he would tell you that I probably was. She's
(02:10):
been to some of our our boot camp and in
classes this year, and I think everyone will tell you that.
I think I got softer because I was really worried
about listening to some of those episodes. I was really
worried about with the way that you know, some of
those students what they were going through. So it was
educational for me. At the same time, you got to
(02:30):
find that balance right of how far and how hard
can you push them? You know. I just love the show.
I miss it. I really do miss having you around. Andy. Yeah,
I guess just like bouncing off what dan Aj was saying.
I actually yesterday one of the victim advocates for some
of my courts, which is the person that you know
(02:53):
deals with the victims, and he was there. He was
the victim advocate in the case that went that Cassie
and I tried. He was like, hey, okay, so whatever
came of that the girl with the boom mic in
the room, Like where where is that? I was like, yeah,
you know, it's like it's a podcast. And he's like, oh, okay,
(03:13):
Like let me go. I'm gonna go listen to it.
And he was like, wait, I'm he was reading through it.
He's like, I don't really get it. I was like, no, Like,
mock trial is like a whole universe. And he was like,
so there's more of you and I was like, yes,
there's more of me. Yeah. I was like no, this
is it's like a subculture that people don't really know about.
So that was cool. Um and then today kind of
(03:35):
also what Teenager was saying, I was kind of starting
to think about everything that we went through and now
that I am on the other side of things that, um,
you know, I do go and like see how I
can help, or if you know the teams need someone
to scrimmage, or you know, if Teenager needs another pair
of hands on Saturday, like anything. I'm so happy because
the program gave me everything, gave me the skills to
(03:58):
have the job that I am now hopefully going to
have October six fingers crossed. I was thinking about that
and I was like, wow, we are. When I was
living it, it was a lot of stress. It was
a lot of anxiety. It was about how hard can
they push you and how far can you go until
you break? Don't break? Like if you break, it's done.
Like if you break, it's over. If you break, you
(04:18):
don't in advance if you break, like and it was
like the press. It felt like the pressure of the
whole world on you. In retrospect, I can only remember
the good things. I can only remember the feeling of
knocking Baylor out of NTC for like the first time
in like twenty years. I can only remember the feeling
of like winning, I can only remember the highs and
(04:39):
not to get to theoretical. But it's kind of akin
to my upbringing had very strict parents. I had a
very very strict upbringing. But when you're on the other
side of things, when you have reached success and you
have fulfilled every dream that you've had, you're like, wow,
you can only remember the good things, right, you can
only you don't remember all those times that you they
pushed you so hard that you know you're like, I
can't do it. Um, you only remember the good. So
(05:02):
to wrap it up, I'm so glad that at least
this last year was caught and putting these little time
capsules that when I miss it or when I remember
why I did it, or when I'm trying to think
of what to say to younger team members that are
now on the team, I just I can listen to
it and I'm like, that's why, like that feeling or
that bond or that support, Like that's why we were
(05:25):
fortunate enough to kind of follow one team. You had
multiple teams actually happening, so we took a risk by
you know, kind of going all in on on that
one team. I want you to maybe if you wouldn't
mind just sort of talk about what was it like
sort of following that particular group of students first, and
(05:46):
then second, maybe tell us a little bit about what
we missed, because obviously we did not capture the flavor
of the entire team. No, that's right. I mean, I
think if we go back to the first time that
you interviewed me at the beginning, I had told you
that our year would be decided by whether or not
we would finally win a tournament. Um that we have
(06:09):
this team. We had been building the program, not just
in numbers, but in difficulty. We were we wanted. We
were ratcheting it up a little bit more each year.
We were making it. We're trying to just build the
students up each year. And I thought that this was
the year. Last year was the year. It was my
fourth full year here, and I thought that it was
(06:30):
time for us to not just advance. They not just
get a couple of Best Advocate or Best direct or
something awards. It was time for us to actually make
it to those final rounds, and that I would determine
whether or not, in my mind, I would determine whether
or not we had a great year, whether or not
we want something that I thought it was time that
(06:52):
we want a tournament, and we had the advocates to
do it with. I really believe that we had a
huge year this year. In fact, it was our best
record ever in the history of our school's program. We
advanced in every tournament that we participated in except for
three uh and it was the most number of tournaments
(07:14):
that we had participated in. We want our a J.
That's the American Association of Justice. We want our regional tournament,
that's the There's the National Trial Competition. That's the one
that Andy and her teammates were in and your chronicled.
That's one of the two big ones of the year.
(07:34):
The other one, there's another one that's called a a
J Stacked, the Student Trial Act competition. You need points
in Stack and you need points at A a J
in order to make it to the Tournament of Champions.
This school has never gone to the Tournament of Champions
and that's our next goal. Our next goal is to
make it to the Tournament of Champions. I'm hoping that
(07:54):
we can do that in three to five years. But
we had an amazing year. Um I had asked you
to hey, hang out with this National Trial League, which
was a beast of a tournament. It was every other week,
another fact pattern, another round of competition every other week
from August all the way to November, and then it
culminated with a round robin national championship in January, and
(08:19):
we won that thing. I could not be more proud
of those kids. We want our a j A Regional,
our our Stack Regional, and two of those kids are
now States attorneys up in Denver. I mean, we really
had just an incredible year. You know, we're getting better,
We keep getting better, and now we're playing with some
of the top programs in the country. And as a
(08:42):
result of all of this work that we did this year,
there's a performance ranking system that's out there, and they
get graded based on the tournaments that you go to
and how you do at those tournaments. And before this year,
I think we were eighty five and this year we're
number thirteen and the country and that's your actual performance
(09:02):
against everybody else in the country. And I cannot be
more proud of these kids. But I'm really happy about
where our program is right now. Andy talk a little
bit about the sort of bond that you know, you've
formed with Cole and Jasmine and Mariella who was also
sort of part of the team, and the fact that
(09:22):
you know that you know all of you come from
somewhat similar backgrounds, and how did that play out over
the year. In the beginning, I think all of us
were tossed out of our comfort zones from where we
had been the year before. None of us had ever
worked together, and it was all about finding how we
work together, and like, how are we going to work together?
(09:45):
How are we going to figure out a way to
make this work and make this the a team. But
we didn't realize is that over the course of several
competitions and over the course of all the months and
all the hours that you spend together m mandatory and
non mandatory hours that you and together. I think that
y'all probably took it out of us about like why
we started to bond the way that we did and
(10:06):
all of the shared experiences that we had had. Yeah,
over the course of time, we just it became it
is a story of friendship, but it's like like not
just like normal friendship, Like I'm talking like Harry Potter friendship,
Like I would like they make me better, um, and
I think that we all made each other better, Like
I would have never become the advocate that I did
(10:27):
without Jasmine, without Cole and vice rusa. Um, I think
we see that now more clearly. Jasmine and I have
been helping out to scrimmage some of the right now
the Battle of the Experts team that's about to go
um here in this next coming week. And so it
just makes me all the time, I just like see
her now in this building and I'm just like, You're
(10:48):
so close, but so far I wish you were just
next to me all the time. Well, and you just
spent this past Sunday in Guadelupe County with your old team.
It's scrimmaging against them for an entire day on both
sides of the case. Right, you're not even you're not
even a member of the team. You're like an aspiring,
hopeful new coach for us moving forward. And there you
(11:12):
were scrimmaging getting your old your old teammate Mariella ready
for Battle of Experts. That's pretty cool. A do. You
had mentioned You've been getting a lot of reactions from people,
and I wanted to know what some of those I
didn't knows were that you were hearing from people, whether
(11:32):
these were practicing attorneys or teachers or students. You know,
the episode, right, was that episode seven. It was such
a powerful, powerful, powerful episode. What was interesting to me
was that that episode has drawn so much feedback from folks.
(11:53):
Some of it was, you know, we didn't know you
know when I heard when Jasmine and Mariella, we're being
questioned about them being one and the same, and there's
no way that any human being couldn't confuse them because
it couldn't be more different, nor could they look more different.
(12:16):
Even when they were standing side by side, you could
heard Jasmine say to Mariella, I think they think that
we're cheating. Um that that that was caught so and
you are miss and seas yes, yes. The attorneys was well,
(12:44):
he thinks are the same, you're You could hear that
the pain was already happening, and it was such a
powerful moment, and so many people reacted by saying we're
sorry that you're students had to go through that because
of that powerful emotion that came from them not realizing
(13:07):
again that they were being recorded. Right, we got so
used to you being around that something good has come
from that right. This year on the president of NELEE,
the National Association of Legal Advocacy Educators, and my number
one priority is to address this issue of this of
it's unintentional. I mean, I don't I do not believe
(13:28):
for one second that the people that we're saying that
we're somehow intentionally trying to be whatever racist, discriminatory, or
whatever word anybody wants to use. I do not believe
that they meant it. That's the problem. Isn't that the problem?
They didn't mean to be But yet they were unintentionally
(13:48):
and oblivious the message they were sending. They were completely
oblivious to it. So how do we address that. We
have a committee and we are working on on a
policy that we could maybe best practices, something that every
tournament should be thinking about, not just when they're putting
teams together, but when they're inviting outsiders in to judge
(14:12):
their competition, to judge these students. I mean, at the
end of the day, let's remember, these are still young adults.
They really haven't gone out into the world. They're still
trying to find themselves, and they don't know how to
deal with these things. Look, I didn't know how to
deal with it. Right. I was caught off guard by it,
but now I'm more aware of and I think now
(14:34):
because of this, I'm also willing to not stand still, uh,
and I I want to try to do something about it.
That's one of the powers of your podcast is that
I'm in a position where I can affect change, or
I should be able to affect change. And I'm hoping
that they're going to recommend to us a policy that
we can give to everyone that and hopefully it's something
(14:58):
that they'll abide and they'll share and they'll make even
if they pick up pieces of it. It's better than
where we are right now. Andy, did you get any
fallout or reaction to that episode we're talking about episode seven.
I think that just when people heard it, they just
(15:18):
were surprised that it happened and that it can that
it's still two and we're still dealing with it, and
that it's real, and that it's alive and well, and
that maybe people don't even realize that they're doing it,
which is the craziest part about all of it. Right,
just that some shock, like two different newspapers reached out
about some comments. Um, they really wanted to talk about
(15:41):
that episode, which um, I think it came out in
one of the articles, and it was just like an
important conversation to have as a community. I think it's
an important conversation out in San Antonio, just as it
is to have in New York and in every other state,
but especially here. And it kind of pivoted to why
representation matters, and that's what got out of it. Just
(16:01):
to switch gears a little bit, you know, you seem
to have a pretty active summer. Uh, tell us where
you went and what was that all? I so, um,
I took the bar July. But then right after we
finished on the second day, we finished around five and
the next morning, UM, my family and I were at
(16:25):
the airport at like seven am the next morning, so
we jetted out of there. And so I was in
Italy for the first week and then I was in
Portugal for the second week. So we just kind of
took each week and went up and down each country
and ate nothing but pasta and really by all accounts
(16:46):
lived the dream um before coming back. So it was
amazing and A J I know you were overseas to
what what was that program and what were you doing
over there? Yeah? I was I mean. First, I went
back to Maryland, though, uh, and we packed up our house.
We moved out of it, waiting for our house here
(17:08):
in Texas to finally be built. So after we packed
up the house and moved it out, went to St Andrew, Scotland.
We showed up the day that the British opened, the
last day of the British Open. I played on the
course next to the old course. I didn't get to
play on the old course. I'm not good enough. But
I went out there for Baylor Law School holds a
(17:30):
summer advanced advocacy program. I was invited to help teach
that program, and I was in awe for those two
we I learned so much about advocacy. There were great
legendary instructors from all over the country. I felt like
I was a student in the room. I feel like
(17:50):
I came back a better a better advocate teacher than
before I left to go there. Scotland is a beautiful,
amazing country. My wife and a couple of students went
up to Inverness and we got to walk the fields
of Colada and the battlefields of Colote. And I was
invited to go back next year and I cannot wait
(18:12):
to do that after I go to Greece and Turkey. Yeah,
I'm getting older. I need to start traveling more, right,
so I need to get it in. So yeah, I know,
I had a wonderful had an incredible summer, and I
did that just before boot camp and then uh, you know,
we started another group of twenty four the day after
I got back. What does this year's team look like?
(18:36):
What you're feeling going in? Every team every year has
a certain rhythm to it, and the rhythm to Andy's
team was this just real drive. It's like get either
lead us or get out of the way. Sometimes they
were like pushing you right, you're going too slow for us.
(18:57):
Sometimes they were like whoa slow down. But most of
the time they were like you're going to slow you know.
They were like, get out of the way. We got it,
we gotta coach, let us go. I think the national
team that won the championship did Andy's team at NTC
was like that they finally got to the point that
we got this. Get out of the way. But I
(19:17):
felt when they walked in they kind of had that
chip on their shoulder when they walked in. So this
group is not like Andy screwp talented group, a little
bit more reserved, a little bit more what do I
do now? What do I do next? You know, you
love that right because they're saying what do I do next?
Then they're sponges and they're taking it in. But I
(19:40):
hope that in time we'll get them a little bit
more like the class of twenty two. I loved it
because they became their own voices and their own advocates.
This young lady that you have here in the podcast
room with me, you know, look at her. She just
turned into this amazing advocate. She's gonna be a great lawyer.
Someone's gonna be really lucky to have her representing them.
(20:02):
And that's what I hope all these kids turned out
to be. This class is going to actually actually has
more opportunity than Andy's class. They're going to competition out
in Atlanta. They're going to travel. Andy's team didn't get
to travel to Atlanta. We're gonna send the T two
teams out to arbitration, and we're sending a team out
to William Daniels and we have people already playing with
(20:23):
National Trial League. We'll see where we go. We have
we have a few that are really good, but they
have to stick it out. They have to do the
dirty work to get to the to get to the glory. Right, Andy,
are you over the whole ANTC experience? Um? I mean
that was tough to witness, definitely, and and you a
(20:44):
days two we got right up to the line. But
I actually listened to it this morning and it really
took me back, like to that day and to that
moment and to that thing, and I'm like, it's just
too soon, Like I can still feel it like it
was yesterday. And yeah, I don't know. I think we'll
be talking about that for a while. Like I think
Jasmine and I will probably be talking about that for
(21:06):
the rest of our lives. I can't help, right, but
being like, well, what if, like what if the cards
would have been different? Right? Because danger was totally right,
Like we there was a high and then we came
crashing down. We weren't ready. We I don't think we
were prepared to Like what happens when you take out Baylor,
Well that's not really going to happen until the end,
So you don't even need to prep for that. If
you take out Baylor, you win. We took out Baylor,
(21:29):
but there was another step right like, and we weren't
ready for that. Yeah, I think it's just something that
we'll be talking about forever. But tragic story. I had
to hear that episode twice because the first time I
heard the episode. Yeah, I don't mind saying it now,
but Lisa tried catching me. Um. I was in a
(21:50):
room by myself. I'm probably gonna do it again right
now just thinking about it. But I was in the
scoring room and I was so I was by myself
in this room, and I just felt that we failed
the students because we just kept telling him, you've got
to beat Baylor. We gotta get over this humble. Baylor's
(22:10):
the number you know, the number two team in the
country that has been for you know, as long as
I've been doing this, they've been number two or three,
and every road goes through Baylor. If we're going to
go somewhere, we need to go through Baylor. We were
lucky enough to beat Baylor and not in the outrounds,
but we've had never beaten Baylor in the outrounds, and
(22:31):
here you go, the first time ever we beat this
incredible program. I remember when the announcement was made I
was watching them in the three courtroom. Team on Texas
will go prosecution against Team one S three St. Mary's
(22:58):
congratulations to all of you, for those of you who
I couldn't say what I was thinking, and what I
was thinking was we beat Baylor and that's all that
they're thinking about, and they're not thinking about the next round.
And I just felt like, you know, everyone got kind
of caught up in that. All the coaches did, and
(23:20):
we really did, you know, let them down a bit,
because a good coaching decision would have been to get
them out of that room, get them to a safe place,
and get them refocus. Instead, what they did is they
went into a room and they they weren't ready for
the round. They just weren't. I don't know if it
(23:40):
would have honestly helped because the turnaround, I mean, I
don't know, I don't know what would have happened. But
what I do know is that I know that the
side that we went on, we weren't prepared to go
that side again, Like it was like you needed more
of a second. But as soon as they announced that
they were like, okay, the round starts in twenty minutes,
you could I don't know, like, I don't maybe right,
(24:01):
like if they would have taken us out to another
room and they would have done a thing, but I
don't know if it would have overcome the side in
the amount of time that you had to recuperate. You're you're, you're,
You're absolutely right on that, but we should have done that.
So when Lisa came into the room, she had asked me,
what are you thinking? And I just I just I
(24:22):
literally had to stomp away from her. I mean, I
just broke out in tears and I couldn't even speak. Um,
I was just I was overcome by by that moment
as well that we had gotten so far, and yet
I felt like we let them down. I really do.
I don't think the students than anything wrong. Well, and
(24:43):
and we think we let you all down, right, No,
not at all. You were you were pretty incredible, and
but there were a couple of things that we missed
that if we were paying attention, we could have better
protected the team in that final round. And I think
they could add a better outcome, but everyone was a
little overcome by it, and uh, and we failed to
(25:04):
protect them. And that's our job as coaches is to
protect our teams. So that's the wood, right, But and
I do think that if that team made it to Nationals,
they would have been a real force to contend with.
I did want to ask you, Andy, you know, now
that you've graduated, you've taken the bar. First of all,
(25:26):
do you feel like you've passed the bar? What a
terrible question to ask someone, Kevin, don't ask people that. Wow,
what is when you take a test? Don't you kind
of know whether you've aced the test? And I don't know?
You knock on wood, jeez, take that back. Okay, Well,
(25:47):
now that you've taken the bar and you potentially contest
and you've had a offer, where do you think your
career will go? Well? I think it will probably start
off of UM as a misdemeanor prosecutor here in Barry County, UM.
And then after that, I don't know. I guess wherever
(26:08):
the trials take me, Wherever I feel like it can
make the most impact, Wherever my skills can be used
for their maximum potential, Wherever I can feel like I'm
making a difference, where I feel like I'm doing the
right thing. Um, I'm sure eventually I'll want to go private,
whether that's the criminal defense or civil whatever way that
(26:28):
leans UM. But maybe not. Maybe I'll be a prosecutor
of my BOFE. Maybe I'll run for office. Who knows. UM.
You know, I think it takes a tremendous amount of
courage to get up there and do what you do.
I think it's really difficult to even if it's in
a you know, quote mock environment, to you know, study
(26:49):
up on the case, you know as much as you
know about the case, go through all the procedures, face
a judge, facing another team, another school, you're just out
there on an island. You know. Having now seen it
in action, I have great respect for for what you
all do, and you know, for what lawyers do. It
(27:09):
sort of did validate I think, and Lisa feels the
same validate. Our initial idea behind this is to understand
what it takes and and it's it's at a very
high level, and it's frightening. I mean, it is absolutely frightening.
So to see your team go as far as you
(27:30):
did and to be a part of that and to
know how tough it is, Uh, that was really wonderful. Yeah,
I appreciate you understanding the fear that I go through
and get in front of those students stuff every every week,
week after week. Thank you. And I just have to
say it's great to see the two of you again,
and we again can never thank you enough for all
(27:53):
the time that you've given us and the you know,
thoughts that you share and to spend a little bit
of time with your life was really iportant to us.
So it was great for us. I'm glad at Cans
to meet both of you and your crew, and I
think it's important to say thank you for what you
did for St. Mary's and our students. I mean, I
think a lot of people have heard your work. It
(28:15):
was just done so incredibly beautiful. Thank you for for
all your hard work and telling our little story and
our little neckcor role. Yeah, I mean it really it
made us feel seen. I really had no idea. I
remember first day of boot camp, like when I first
talked to you all, like, no idea why you would
be interested in this school, Like in the middle of nowhere,
(28:36):
full of all these like you know, little brown kids,
like okay, we're allowed, we're trying to channel that here.
Why why does it matter? Why do we matter? And
it was just awesome. It was wonderful, so thank you
so much for that. And as a quick note, after
(28:57):
this recording, the team received their our results and all
three Andy, Jasmine and Cole passed the bar and are
now practicing attorneys. Last Action is a production of I
Heart Radio and Sound Argument, created, produced, and edited by
(29:23):
Kevin Huffman and Lisa Gray. Executive producers are Taylor Shakogne
and Katrina Norvell. For more podcasts from I heart Radio,
visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you get your favorite shows.
Class Action is a production of I Heart Radio and
Sound Argument. So hello everyone, I'm Kevin Huffman and I'm Lisa,
and you're listening to a special bonus podcast with two
of our favorite people, A J. Belieta de Luna and
and this Kara from St. Mary's or formerly from St.
(00:23):
Mary's University. So I wanted to just kick it off
by asking the two of you just to reflect a
little bit. Either one reflect a little bit about the
series and you know what was your reaction? How did
it work for you? Well, let me just begin by saying,
Hi Kevin, Hi Lisa, and of course Hi Andy. I
(00:45):
have missed you so much this year. So my first
reflection is the obvious. You know, when you guys came
here and you brought the crew and the boom mix
and if you might remember orientation, the hunting down, the
steps in the crowd, cheering and h you know, that
was a kind of our first recording that we had.
(01:07):
And then you were everywhere and nowhere at the same time,
and we kind of forgot that you were there. But
now I remember that you're not there, and I actually
miss you. So thank you for having the bonus coverage
because that gives us a chance to to reconnect. For me,
(01:27):
you know, there were so many phone calls and emails
and the wow I didn't know from people. I was
shocked by that. I was shocked that we were trending
of Canada. It was just really humbling for me to
be a part of this, more so because you did
such an amazing job highlighting my students and what they
were going through. And I think I've told this to
(01:48):
the dean. I thought that I was pretty much in
touch what was going on with our students. I knew
that they were working hard. I knew what we were
putting them through. It was difficult. I knew it was
a good purpose for were it. I don't think I
really knew, you know, what I learned in the podcast,
because there was a lot more that was going on.
And he would tell you that I probably was. She's
(02:10):
been to some of our our boot camp and in
classes this year, and I think everyone will tell you that.
I think I got softer because I was really worried
about listening to some of those episodes. I was really
worried about with the way that you know, some of
those students what they were going through. So it was
educational for me. At the same time, you got to
(02:30):
find that balance right of how far and how hard
can you push them? You know. I just love the show.
I miss it. I really do miss having you around. Andy. Yeah,
I guess just like bouncing off what dan Aj was saying.
I actually yesterday one of the victim advocates for some
of my courts, which is the person that you know
(02:53):
deals with the victims, and he was there. He was
the victim advocate in the case that went that Cassie
and I tried. He was like, hey, okay, so whatever
came of that the girl with the boom mic in
the room, Like where where is that? I was like, yeah,
you know, it's like it's a podcast. And he's like, oh, okay,
(03:13):
Like let me go. I'm gonna go listen to it.
And he was like, wait, I'm he was reading through it.
He's like, I don't really get it. I was like, no, Like,
mock trial is like a whole universe. And he was like,
so there's more of you and I was like, yes,
there's more of me. Yeah. I was like no, this
is it's like a subculture that people don't really know about.
So that was cool. Um and then today kind of
(03:35):
also what Teenager was saying, I was kind of starting
to think about everything that we went through and now
that I am on the other side of things that, um,
you know, I do go and like see how I
can help, or if you know the teams need someone
to scrimmage, or you know, if Teenager needs another pair
of hands on Saturday, like anything. I'm so happy because
the program gave me everything, gave me the skills to
(03:58):
have the job that I am now hopefully going to
have October six fingers crossed. I was thinking about that
and I was like, wow, we are. When I was
living it, it was a lot of stress. It was
a lot of anxiety. It was about how hard can
they push you and how far can you go until
you break? Don't break? Like if you break, it's done.
Like if you break, it's over. If you break, you
(04:18):
don't in advance if you break, like and it was
like the press. It felt like the pressure of the
whole world on you. In retrospect, I can only remember
the good things. I can only remember the feeling of
knocking Baylor out of NTC for like the first time
in like twenty years. I can only remember the feeling
of like winning, I can only remember the highs and
(04:39):
not to get to theoretical. But it's kind of akin
to my upbringing had very strict parents. I had a
very very strict upbringing. But when you're on the other
side of things, when you have reached success and you
have fulfilled every dream that you've had, you're like, wow,
you can only remember the good things, right, you can
only you don't remember all those times that you they
pushed you so hard that you know you're like, I
can't do it. Um, you only remember the good. So
(05:02):
to wrap it up, I'm so glad that at least
this last year was caught and putting these little time
capsules that when I miss it or when I remember
why I did it, or when I'm trying to think
of what to say to younger team members that are
now on the team, I just I can listen to
it and I'm like, that's why, like that feeling or
that bond or that support, Like that's why we were
(05:25):
fortunate enough to kind of follow one team. You had
multiple teams actually happening, so we took a risk by
you know, kind of going all in on on that
one team. I want you to maybe if you wouldn't
mind just sort of talk about what was it like
sort of following that particular group of students first, and
(05:46):
then second, maybe tell us a little bit about what
we missed, because obviously we did not capture the flavor
of the entire team. No, that's right. I mean, I
think if we go back to the first time that
you interviewed me at the beginning, I had told you
that our year would be decided by whether or not
we would finally win a tournament. Um that we have
(06:09):
this team. We had been building the program, not just
in numbers, but in difficulty. We were we wanted. We
were ratcheting it up a little bit more each year.
We were making it. We're trying to just build the
students up each year. And I thought that this was
the year. Last year was the year. It was my
fourth full year here, and I thought that it was
(06:30):
time for us to not just advance. They not just
get a couple of Best Advocate or Best direct or
something awards. It was time for us to actually make
it to those final rounds, and that I would determine
whether or not, in my mind, I would determine whether
or not we had a great year, whether or not
we want something that I thought it was time that
(06:52):
we want a tournament, and we had the advocates to
do it with. I really believe that we had a
huge year this year. In fact, it was our best
record ever in the history of our school's program. We
advanced in every tournament that we participated in except for
three uh and it was the most number of tournaments
(07:14):
that we had participated in. We want our a J.
That's the American Association of Justice. We want our regional tournament,
that's the There's the National Trial Competition. That's the one
that Andy and her teammates were in and your chronicled.
That's one of the two big ones of the year.
(07:34):
The other one, there's another one that's called a a
J Stacked, the Student Trial Act competition. You need points
in Stack and you need points at A a J
in order to make it to the Tournament of Champions.
This school has never gone to the Tournament of Champions
and that's our next goal. Our next goal is to
make it to the Tournament of Champions. I'm hoping that
(07:54):
we can do that in three to five years. But
we had an amazing year. Um I had asked you
to hey, hang out with this National Trial League, which
was a beast of a tournament. It was every other week,
another fact pattern, another round of competition every other week
from August all the way to November, and then it
culminated with a round robin national championship in January, and
(08:19):
we won that thing. I could not be more proud
of those kids. We want our a j A Regional,
our our Stack Regional, and two of those kids are
now States attorneys up in Denver. I mean, we really
had just an incredible year. You know, we're getting better,
We keep getting better, and now we're playing with some
of the top programs in the country. And as a
(08:42):
result of all of this work that we did this year,
there's a performance ranking system that's out there, and they
get graded based on the tournaments that you go to
and how you do at those tournaments. And before this year,
I think we were eighty five and this year we're
number thirteen and the country and that's your actual performance
(09:02):
against everybody else in the country. And I cannot be
more proud of these kids. But I'm really happy about
where our program is right now. Andy talk a little
bit about the sort of bond that you know, you've
formed with Cole and Jasmine and Mariella who was also
sort of part of the team, and the fact that
(09:22):
you know that you know all of you come from
somewhat similar backgrounds, and how did that play out over
the year. In the beginning, I think all of us
were tossed out of our comfort zones from where we
had been the year before. None of us had ever
worked together, and it was all about finding how we
work together, and like, how are we going to work together?
(09:45):
How are we going to figure out a way to
make this work and make this the a team. But
we didn't realize is that over the course of several
competitions and over the course of all the months and
all the hours that you spend together m mandatory and
non mandatory hours that you and together. I think that
y'all probably took it out of us about like why
we started to bond the way that we did and
(10:06):
all of the shared experiences that we had had. Yeah,
over the course of time, we just it became it
is a story of friendship, but it's like like not
just like normal friendship, Like I'm talking like Harry Potter friendship,
Like I would like they make me better, um, and
I think that we all made each other better, Like
I would have never become the advocate that I did
(10:27):
without Jasmine, without Cole and vice rusa. Um, I think
we see that now more clearly. Jasmine and I have
been helping out to scrimmage some of the right now
the Battle of the Experts team that's about to go
um here in this next coming week. And so it
just makes me all the time, I just like see
her now in this building and I'm just like, You're
(10:48):
so close, but so far I wish you were just
next to me all the time. Well, and you just
spent this past Sunday in Guadelupe County with your old team.
It's scrimmaging against them for an entire day on both
sides of the case. Right, you're not even you're not
even a member of the team. You're like an aspiring,
hopeful new coach for us moving forward. And there you
(11:12):
were scrimmaging getting your old your old teammate Mariella ready
for Battle of Experts. That's pretty cool. A do. You
had mentioned You've been getting a lot of reactions from people,
and I wanted to know what some of those I
didn't knows were that you were hearing from people, whether
(11:32):
these were practicing attorneys or teachers or students. You know,
the episode, right, was that episode seven. It was such
a powerful, powerful, powerful episode. What was interesting to me
was that that episode has drawn so much feedback from folks.
(11:53):
Some of it was, you know, we didn't know you
know when I heard when Jasmine and Mariella, we're being
questioned about them being one and the same, and there's
no way that any human being couldn't confuse them because
it couldn't be more different, nor could they look more different.
(12:16):
Even when they were standing side by side, you could
heard Jasmine say to Mariella, I think they think that
we're cheating. Um that that that was caught so and
you are miss and seas yes, yes. The attorneys was well,
(12:44):
he thinks are the same, you're You could hear that
the pain was already happening, and it was such a
powerful moment, and so many people reacted by saying we're
sorry that you're students had to go through that because
of that powerful emotion that came from them not realizing
(13:07):
again that they were being recorded. Right, we got so
used to you being around that something good has come
from that right. This year on the president of NELEE,
the National Association of Legal Advocacy Educators, and my number
one priority is to address this issue of this of
it's unintentional. I mean, I don't I do not believe
(13:28):
for one second that the people that we're saying that
we're somehow intentionally trying to be whatever racist, discriminatory, or
whatever word anybody wants to use. I do not believe
that they meant it. That's the problem. Isn't that the problem?
They didn't mean to be But yet they were unintentionally
(13:48):
and oblivious the message they were sending. They were completely
oblivious to it. So how do we address that. We
have a committee and we are working on on a
policy that we could maybe best practices, something that every
tournament should be thinking about, not just when they're putting
teams together, but when they're inviting outsiders in to judge
(14:12):
their competition, to judge these students. I mean, at the
end of the day, let's remember, these are still young adults.
They really haven't gone out into the world. They're still
trying to find themselves, and they don't know how to
deal with these things. Look, I didn't know how to
deal with it. Right. I was caught off guard by it,
but now I'm more aware of and I think now
(14:34):
because of this, I'm also willing to not stand still, uh,
and I I want to try to do something about it.
That's one of the powers of your podcast is that
I'm in a position where I can affect change, or
I should be able to affect change. And I'm hoping
that they're going to recommend to us a policy that
we can give to everyone that and hopefully it's something
(14:58):
that they'll abide and they'll share and they'll make even
if they pick up pieces of it. It's better than
where we are right now. Andy, did you get any
fallout or reaction to that episode we're talking about episode seven.
I think that just when people heard it, they just
(15:18):
were surprised that it happened and that it can that
it's still two and we're still dealing with it, and
that it's real, and that it's alive and well, and
that maybe people don't even realize that they're doing it,
which is the craziest part about all of it. Right,
just that some shock, like two different newspapers reached out
about some comments. Um, they really wanted to talk about
(15:41):
that episode, which um, I think it came out in
one of the articles, and it was just like an
important conversation to have as a community. I think it's
an important conversation out in San Antonio, just as it
is to have in New York and in every other state,
but especially here. And it kind of pivoted to why
representation matters, and that's what got out of it. Just
(16:01):
to switch gears a little bit, you know, you seem
to have a pretty active summer. Uh, tell us where
you went and what was that all? I so, um,
I took the bar July. But then right after we
finished on the second day, we finished around five and
the next morning, UM, my family and I were at
(16:25):
the airport at like seven am the next morning, so
we jetted out of there. And so I was in
Italy for the first week and then I was in
Portugal for the second week. So we just kind of
took each week and went up and down each country
and ate nothing but pasta and really by all accounts
(16:46):
lived the dream um before coming back. So it was
amazing and A J I know you were overseas to
what what was that program and what were you doing
over there? Yeah? I was I mean. First, I went
back to Maryland, though, uh, and we packed up our house.
We moved out of it, waiting for our house here
(17:08):
in Texas to finally be built. So after we packed
up the house and moved it out, went to St Andrew, Scotland.
We showed up the day that the British opened, the
last day of the British Open. I played on the
course next to the old course. I didn't get to
play on the old course. I'm not good enough. But
I went out there for Baylor Law School holds a
(17:30):
summer advanced advocacy program. I was invited to help teach
that program, and I was in awe for those two
we I learned so much about advocacy. There were great
legendary instructors from all over the country. I felt like
I was a student in the room. I feel like
(17:50):
I came back a better a better advocate teacher than
before I left to go there. Scotland is a beautiful,
amazing country. My wife and a couple of students went
up to Inverness and we got to walk the fields
of Colada and the battlefields of Colote. And I was
invited to go back next year and I cannot wait
(18:12):
to do that after I go to Greece and Turkey. Yeah,
I'm getting older. I need to start traveling more, right,
so I need to get it in. So yeah, I know,
I had a wonderful had an incredible summer, and I
did that just before boot camp and then uh, you know,
we started another group of twenty four the day after
I got back. What does this year's team look like?
(18:36):
What you're feeling going in? Every team every year has
a certain rhythm to it, and the rhythm to Andy's
team was this just real drive. It's like get either
lead us or get out of the way. Sometimes they
were like pushing you right, you're going too slow for us.
(18:57):
Sometimes they were like whoa slow down. But most of
the time they were like you're going to slow you know.
They were like, get out of the way. We got it,
we gotta coach, let us go. I think the national
team that won the championship did Andy's team at NTC
was like that they finally got to the point that
we got this. Get out of the way. But I
(19:17):
felt when they walked in they kind of had that
chip on their shoulder when they walked in. So this
group is not like Andy screwp talented group, a little
bit more reserved, a little bit more what do I
do now? What do I do next? You know, you
love that right because they're saying what do I do next?
Then they're sponges and they're taking it in. But I
(19:40):
hope that in time we'll get them a little bit
more like the class of twenty two. I loved it
because they became their own voices and their own advocates.
This young lady that you have here in the podcast
room with me, you know, look at her. She just
turned into this amazing advocate. She's gonna be a great lawyer.
Someone's gonna be really lucky to have her representing them.
(20:02):
And that's what I hope all these kids turned out
to be. This class is going to actually actually has
more opportunity than Andy's class. They're going to competition out
in Atlanta. They're going to travel. Andy's team didn't get
to travel to Atlanta. We're gonna send the T two
teams out to arbitration, and we're sending a team out
to William Daniels and we have people already playing with
(20:23):
National Trial League. We'll see where we go. We have
we have a few that are really good, but they
have to stick it out. They have to do the
dirty work to get to the to get to the glory. Right, Andy,
are you over the whole ANTC experience? Um? I mean
that was tough to witness, definitely, and and you a
(20:44):
days two we got right up to the line. But
I actually listened to it this morning and it really
took me back, like to that day and to that
moment and to that thing, and I'm like, it's just
too soon, Like I can still feel it like it
was yesterday. And yeah, I don't know. I think we'll
be talking about that for a while. Like I think
Jasmine and I will probably be talking about that for
(21:06):
the rest of our lives. I can't help, right, but
being like, well, what if, like what if the cards
would have been different? Right? Because danger was totally right,
Like we there was a high and then we came
crashing down. We weren't ready. We I don't think we
were prepared to Like what happens when you take out Baylor,
Well that's not really going to happen until the end,
So you don't even need to prep for that. If
you take out Baylor, you win. We took out Baylor,
(21:29):
but there was another step right like, and we weren't
ready for that. Yeah, I think it's just something that
we'll be talking about forever. But tragic story. I had
to hear that episode twice because the first time I
heard the episode. Yeah, I don't mind saying it now,
but Lisa tried catching me. Um. I was in a
(21:50):
room by myself. I'm probably gonna do it again right
now just thinking about it. But I was in the
scoring room and I was so I was by myself
in this room, and I just felt that we failed
the students because we just kept telling him, you've got
to beat Baylor. We gotta get over this humble. Baylor's
(22:10):
the number you know, the number two team in the
country that has been for you know, as long as
I've been doing this, they've been number two or three,
and every road goes through Baylor. If we're going to
go somewhere, we need to go through Baylor. We were
lucky enough to beat Baylor and not in the outrounds,
but we've had never beaten Baylor in the outrounds, and
(22:31):
here you go, the first time ever we beat this
incredible program. I remember when the announcement was made I
was watching them in the three courtroom. Team on Texas
will go prosecution against Team one S three St. Mary's
(22:58):
congratulations to all of you, for those of you who
I couldn't say what I was thinking, and what I
was thinking was we beat Baylor and that's all that
they're thinking about, and they're not thinking about the next round.
And I just felt like, you know, everyone got kind
of caught up in that. All the coaches did, and
(23:20):
we really did, you know, let them down a bit,
because a good coaching decision would have been to get
them out of that room, get them to a safe place,
and get them refocus. Instead, what they did is they
went into a room and they they weren't ready for
the round. They just weren't. I don't know if it
(23:40):
would have honestly helped because the turnaround, I mean, I
don't know, I don't know what would have happened. But
what I do know is that I know that the
side that we went on, we weren't prepared to go
that side again, Like it was like you needed more
of a second. But as soon as they announced that
they were like, okay, the round starts in twenty minutes,
you could I don't know, like, I don't maybe right,
(24:01):
like if they would have taken us out to another
room and they would have done a thing, but I
don't know if it would have overcome the side in
the amount of time that you had to recuperate. You're you're, you're,
You're absolutely right on that, but we should have done that.
So when Lisa came into the room, she had asked me,
what are you thinking? And I just I just I
(24:22):
literally had to stomp away from her. I mean, I
just broke out in tears and I couldn't even speak. Um,
I was just I was overcome by by that moment
as well that we had gotten so far, and yet
I felt like we let them down. I really do.
I don't think the students than anything wrong. Well, and
(24:43):
and we think we let you all down, right, No,
not at all. You were you were pretty incredible, and
but there were a couple of things that we missed
that if we were paying attention, we could have better
protected the team in that final round. And I think
they could add a better outcome, but everyone was a
little overcome by it, and uh, and we failed to
(25:04):
protect them. And that's our job as coaches is to
protect our teams. So that's the wood, right, But and
I do think that if that team made it to Nationals,
they would have been a real force to contend with.
I did want to ask you, Andy, you know, now
that you've graduated, you've taken the bar. First of all,
(25:26):
do you feel like you've passed the bar? What a
terrible question to ask someone, Kevin, don't ask people that. Wow,
what is when you take a test? Don't you kind
of know whether you've aced the test? And I don't know?
You knock on wood, jeez, take that back. Okay, Well,
(25:47):
now that you've taken the bar and you potentially contest
and you've had a offer, where do you think your
career will go? Well? I think it will probably start
off of UM as a misdemeanor prosecutor here in Barry County, UM.
And then after that, I don't know. I guess wherever
(26:08):
the trials take me, Wherever I feel like it can
make the most impact, Wherever my skills can be used
for their maximum potential, Wherever I can feel like I'm
making a difference, where I feel like I'm doing the
right thing. Um, I'm sure eventually I'll want to go private,
whether that's the criminal defense or civil whatever way that
(26:28):
leans UM. But maybe not. Maybe I'll be a prosecutor
of my BOFE. Maybe I'll run for office. Who knows. UM.
You know, I think it takes a tremendous amount of
courage to get up there and do what you do.
I think it's really difficult to even if it's in
a you know, quote mock environment, to you know, study
(26:49):
up on the case, you know as much as you
know about the case, go through all the procedures, face
a judge, facing another team, another school, you're just out
there on an island. You know. Having now seen it
in action, I have great respect for for what you
all do, and you know, for what lawyers do. It
(27:09):
sort of did validate I think, and Lisa feels the
same validate. Our initial idea behind this is to understand
what it takes and and it's it's at a very
high level, and it's frightening. I mean, it is absolutely frightening.
So to see your team go as far as you
(27:30):
did and to be a part of that and to
know how tough it is, Uh, that was really wonderful. Yeah,
I appreciate you understanding the fear that I go through
and get in front of those students stuff every every week,
week after week. Thank you. And I just have to
say it's great to see the two of you again,
and we again can never thank you enough for all
(27:53):
the time that you've given us and the you know,
thoughts that you share and to spend a little bit
of time with your life was really iportant to us.
So it was great for us. I'm glad at Cans
to meet both of you and your crew, and I
think it's important to say thank you for what you
did for St. Mary's and our students. I mean, I
think a lot of people have heard your work. It
(28:15):
was just done so incredibly beautiful. Thank you for for
all your hard work and telling our little story and
our little neckcor role. Yeah, I mean it really it
made us feel seen. I really had no idea. I
remember first day of boot camp, like when I first
talked to you all, like, no idea why you would
be interested in this school, Like in the middle of nowhere,
(28:36):
full of all these like you know, little brown kids,
like okay, we're allowed, we're trying to channel that here.
Why why does it matter? Why do we matter? And
it was just awesome. It was wonderful, so thank you
so much for that. And as a quick note, after
(28:57):
this recording, the team received their our results and all
three Andy, Jasmine and Cole passed the bar and are
now practicing attorneys. Last Action is a production of I
Heart Radio and Sound Argument, created, produced, and edited by
(29:23):
Kevin Huffman and Lisa Gray. Executive producers are Taylor Shakogne
and Katrina Norvell. For more podcasts from I heart Radio,
visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you get your favorite shows.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com