November 17, 2022 • 32 mins
Producers Kevin Huffman and Lisa Gray check in with former Dillard students Amaya Ronczyk and Lajeanne Shelton. Amaya is currently a 1L at Harvard Law, and Lajeanne is a 1L at UC Hastings Law. They talk about their personal experiences as a first-year law student, along with giving some helpful advice for future students, going from an HBCU to a PWI, skills carried over from the Dillard Mock Trial team into their current courses, and some exciting news about this year’s Dillard case law.
Learn more about the schools, programs and special guests:
Harvard Law School
Dillard University Pre-Law Program
American Mock Trial Association
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Class Action is a production of I Heart Radio and
Sound Argument. Just as a quick hello, I'd like to
welcome everyone back to class Action and uh my partner
Lisa Gray and our special guests tonight are A Maya
and La Jane, formerly of the Diller team and now
(00:24):
first year law students. So let's start with you. Where
are you and how is school? I am currently a
one l at you see Hastings. That name might change
very soon, but that's where I currently am right now
in San Francisco, California. What why will the name change?
(00:47):
They did a background check on the person were named after,
and he was very instrumental in genocides of the UK people,
which is an indigenous tribe in California, so they want
to get rid of the name Hastings. But now his
family is suing the institution and asking for the money
he put down with over like a hundred year interests,
(01:09):
So they're asking for about a good like three million
dollars from us, which we don't have an auspicious beginning
for your first year, but good for the researchers out
there to dig this up. That's great. And amya, where
are you and what year are you in? Just kind
of let's fill in our audience. Yes, So I'm in Cambridge, Massachusetts.
(01:32):
I am currently a one ll at Harvard Law. How
would you describe Boston, you know, now that you spent
a little time there, or Cambridge. What what's it been
like for you as the first year. I don't know
that I've even experienced it to the fullest. Um. I'm
usually on campus most of the time. UM, I will say,
(01:53):
I try to set aside like two days of the
month where I like go out and treat myself to something,
and so I'm trying to find places to eat. Um.
But it's definitely not necessarily a culture shock because I
knew what I was getting myself into. But it is
a lot different from where I grew up in Florida
and also where I went to school, which was New Orleans.
(02:14):
So and you're you're back in the hometown. How's that going.
It's going pretty well. I'm used to everything around here already,
so I'm back by family. I'm happy to be back.
But at the same time, like you know, I do
miss New Orleans just a little bit, not too much,
(02:36):
just a little bit. Leg What was your first class, um,
and what was it like you know, UM, when you
when you walked in to describe that for us. So
my first class was crim pro So Criminal Procedure and
(02:56):
Hastings has a thing where you choose your seats prior,
so I didn't have to get there an hour early
to try to get a good seat. I just had
to like do a little selection thing on canvas. It
was fine, like they just jumped right into it. There's
no just things as a syllabus class here. They're like, okay,
(03:17):
so here are the elements of a crime. Now let's
go through it. I said, oh, okay, let me get
my notebook out. The same to you, am Iya. I
know I talked to you when you had visited UM,
but if you could walk us through like that first day,
you know on campus when you're going to your first class,
(03:38):
what was that like to sort of paint that picture
for us, and you know what was the class? And yeah,
So my first class was Legislation and Regulation. You know,
it was eight am, so I wasn't fully there yet.
So I don't I don't know that I have too
much to offer, but I will say I don't know.
I was I guess I was expecting like my professor
to introduce himself for something. Hi, my name is but
(04:01):
he just as soon as the class started he started
talking about the case. So that caught me off guard
a little bit. But other than that, like he's a
fabulous professor. I do remember I got my first cold
call that day during my last class and property, and
he asked me a question that wasn't necessarily in the reading,
and so I'm flipping through my notes like did I
(04:23):
miss something? Like I'm freaking out, but it was just
like one of those jokey type of questions and I
wasn't expecting that. So I'm over here like thinking I'm
about to burst out in tears, but it was fine.
It ended up being fine, and that's actually one of
my favorite classes now. But yeah, I was the first
person called in that class, and I'll never forget it.
(04:46):
You mentioned criminal procedure. What are some of the other
courses that you're taking from My first semester, I take
Criminal Procedure towards and Civil Procedure, and then I have
a legal research and writing class where I learned how
to write memos. So that's my first semester, and then
my second semester I have to take contracts, property, legal
(05:09):
writing and research and um a statutory class or constitutional
You know, in what ways did Dillard in the mock
trial team prepare you for those? Guys? I can see
you as criminal procedure because obviously this is some of
the stuff that you know you you got to know
cold through mock trial. But for some of these contract
(05:32):
classes and other things like that, what was the prep
like that you know? Our is this all kind of
new to you? Um? I wouldn't say it's new. I
would just say it puts things into a different perspective.
When you guys followed us last year, we were doing
a criminal case, but me and Maya have had two
civil cases under our belt with AMPTA, so we've done
(05:53):
towards before. We have had experience in doing towards and
um trying to find whether defending is liable or not
liable through the use of negligence. So I was fine
with that per se. But there really isn't anything else
besides knowing how to talk in front of people and
just knowing how to answer questions your honor opposing counsel.
(06:19):
Members of the journey, May it please the court follow
the Hoodies. On August one, j Len Williams, a Midlands
Center firefighter, heard the alarms of the fire station ringing,
meaning that it was time for him to once again
risk his life. With no second thought and no hesitation,
(06:40):
he grabbed his gear and rushed onto the fire truck.
And unfortunately you will learn that that search and rescue
mission did end in one cavity, and on that very day,
Midland's lost a hero and a citizen the most important,
a family lost. Suns Beyond loss, j willis back to you, amya.
(07:09):
Just give us a sense of some of the other
courses that you're taking. Yeah, I'm basically taking the inverse
of what Legen is taking. I think the only class
we share is SIV PRO and um LRW Legal Research
and Writing. Um, so I'm taking those two, and I'm
also taking Contracts, property and leg RIG. I think for me,
(07:30):
material wise, property might be my favorite class, followed by
SIV PRO because I think I do have some experience
there and for me because I was our Urban Studies
in Public Policy major. Right now, um, we're learning about
mortgages and just like a week or so ago, we
were talking about urban renewal or negro removal, and in
my head I'm like, oh my gosh, me and Dr Trevor,
(07:51):
we're talking about this. So I do get a little
bit excited there because I understand it, and this class
kind of gives a different layer of context and I
kind of can think about the implications in my community,
and so I appreciate when, you know, my professors do that.
And as far as sif PRO, I think basically me
(08:11):
and Logen a kind of had a really good briefing
to sif PRO because we worked for Hamilton Lewis, which
is a black owned law firm in New Orleans, and
Rashawn Hamilton are boss. Shout out to her. She must
have thought she was our sif PRO professor because she
had us writing petitions, motions, discovery and so when like
that stuff pops up in my class, I get so excited,
(08:33):
Like I'm looking at my old folder at my stuff
to try to better understand it, because before I was
just kind of going through the motions because that's what
she told me to do, and that what she said
lawyers did, and I had the rules and stuff, but
I didn't understand the justification in the years of history
and cases that got us to that point. I was
going through the motion. So now having that background makes
(08:55):
it a little bit more exciting. I'm not gonna say
that it's the easiest class, because it's not, but just
like having some familiarity to hold onto, I think has
been helpful so far. Have there been any doubts about
going to law school or has it fulfilled the expectations
that you were anticipating going into these programs. I think
(09:19):
there was more fear before I got here. And I'll say,
first of all, I'm glad, like I'm grateful for the
experiences that I've had because I think I'm in a
much better place now because of that. I hope I'm
making sense of this, But basically, I've dealt with imposture
syndrome for years, anxiety for years. But through summer programs
(09:42):
that you know, during undergrad or through mock trial, or
just through my professor's really supporting me, my parents, I think,
not necessarily that that got rid of all of my
issues or anything, but it equipped me for you know,
this space. I could be having a million breakdowns a day,
and of course there are tough moments. I've had a
couple of tears here and there, but I think just
(10:06):
I've been trained to lean on God and family, and
I'm not in the place that I thought I would be.
In fact, like, I'll go to class and there are
some days where I'm bored. I'm not gonna lie, but
there are other times where I'm just so excited to
be there and learn. And that's something that I used
to feel like as a kid, like learning about history
or something like that, just like I genuinely liked school,
(10:28):
and that's obviously what I'm here today. But I felt
like not all of my classes at Dillard, of course,
but you know, as I have finished my major courses
and I just was like taking electives here or there,
I lost kind of that excitement. And then, of course,
with my priority for a lot of the time being
mock trial, I didn't allow myself room to grow in
(10:49):
a lot of areas. And I think here I get
that childlike feeling back, and I'm just you know, excite,
like my brain is a sponge. And I thought I
was gonna go in here that coming straight from college,
I thought it was gonna be dried up and that
I couldn't abdure any more information. But that's definitely not
the case for me. I think we went into this
(11:09):
knowing it was gonna be very difficult. I can't even
count how many times, like when I've told somebody whether
it was like a pre law director Dillard, or like
I asked another like person who I knew who went
to law school is currently in law school. They were like,
law school is extremely hard? Law school is this law school?
Is that? I didn't really hear any nice things about
(11:29):
law school, so I came into it. You know, it's
gonna be really difficult. It's not going to be the
easiest thing. So you just kind of have to, you know,
manage your expectations and just be like, look, it's it's
gonna be getting ready, getting right to work. It's just
all about managing your expectations. But I feel like, like
(11:50):
I knew I came here, I had a job to do,
and I got people that are counting on me to
complete that job. So I'm a dude, what needs to
be done? What is the hardest part for me? At least,
I think the hardest part is just like running off
a very little sleep, because on mine, I can tell you,
like I love to take a nice nap. I used
(12:12):
to take naps every day. I scheduled in a nap
every single day. I wake up at like six thirty
every day and I don't go to sleep until like two.
So it's it's very tiring, it's very exhausting, and you're
expected to digest all of this information off a very
(12:32):
little sleep and very little food and a whole bunch
of coffee. I did. I did not used to drink coffee.
Now I drink coffee every day. It's just the hardest
part is just like balancing taking care of yourself and
taking care of business. I kind of have to second
that it's not necessarily that much of a thing for
(12:53):
me this time around, because knows, there's been moments where
I've been passing out getting sick because as a mock trial,
and so I just had it beat into me that
I needed to start taking care of myself. And now
I'm just now starting to do it. So the least
amount of sleep I'll allow myself to have is like
six hours. I'm trying to take care of myself. I
(13:14):
think for me though, the worst part about it, and
I think Logen could agree with this. We're kind of perfectionists,
and I think even if we're not immediately good at something.
We train ourselves until the thing that scares us the
most is what we're the best at. So like, even
with objections, there was times like in high school, I
(13:34):
never objected. I might respond well to it, but I
wouldn't have, you know, the guts to just object if
I didn't think of all of the twelve arguments that
might come after that objection. And I just beat that
into me until you know, I got it right and
it didn't become It's not perfect now, but I didn't
get to be a Maya by you know, not practicing,
(13:57):
and it took me all throughout college to get there.
And with this, like, we have so little time in
the day that you have to kind of decide, Okay,
am I gonna give this time to myself and rest
and for me, I'm I'm religious. Am I gonna read
the Bible during this one hour free time? Am I
gonna go to the gym? Am I gonna read whatever
(14:20):
cases I have that I haven't finished for tomorrow? Am
I gonna do some additional work and look at old
tests and try to figure out how I would solve
the problems on the test. And it's it's difficult trying
to find and prioritize your time in that way. And
I'm a very organized person with my planner and stuff
like that, but even just choosing not to do a
(14:41):
reading is such a big thing. And then now I
feel like I'm behind. And I also feel like because
I didn't necessarily get full credit on this one assignment,
that means I don't understand it, when in reality, this
is something that I've been doing for years at a
law firm and I do understand it. I just can't
fully flesh out my argument. And as I'm talking now,
(15:01):
I'm realizing that that's not a new problem. Like I've
understood concepts in mock trial, but it took me a
long time to fully flesh out that argument and understand
or get other people to understand why I was right.
I think I just have to apply that same type
of practice to my work here. So yeah, just saying
that out loud kind of makes me feel better. But
(15:23):
I think just allowing myself room to grow and understanding
that it's not gonna come overnight it's still hard though.
Definitely they want you to forget that their family is
counting on us to do what's just They want you
to forget that their family wakes up every single day
hoping that they'll see their son again, that they want
(15:44):
to believe that this is all a dream, that they
cry at the thought of someone else taking over his
locker or his seat at the dinner table. Members of
the jury, the real victim is not here today. The
villain in today's case is the defendant. Defendant is the
person with the plan. The defendant is the person with
(16:04):
the motive. The defendant is the person who, the day
after the fire, was not even enough time to mourn
their business. Requested at one point five million dollars in full,
members of the jury, do what's justin today's case. We've
done our job. We've proven these elements to you beyond
a reasonable doubt. So now it's your time, your moment,
(16:27):
to do what's right in today's case, and to show
the defendant that when they burn their building they can't
get away with it. We must hold them accountable, find
them guilty. Thank you, thank you. Yes, yes. Maybe For
(16:51):
those listeners who are currently at an HBCU like you were,
uh and thinking about going to law school, is there
any transition or is there something that you feel like
it's important to point out for those students who might
be going into a school that's not an HBCU for
(17:12):
law school. I've been saying this since before I even
got into law school. First of all, when I was
even talking about applying to an HBCU, I had friends
very confused as to why, and I constantly had them
had to make the argument, like why HBCUs were so valuable.
(17:32):
My mom went to one, so that's why I knew.
And I even got into n y U. They didn't
give me any money, but I was encouraged by like
a counselor to go there instead because the degree would
be worth more. And to a lot of people that
might seem true. But I've done summer programs where people
from Ivy League institutions will say, we don't have anything
(17:53):
close to what the pre law program at Dealer is
offering you. So we have the lead program there for
two hundred dollars and you can get some of that back.
They're offering us what six five months of els at prep.
Other schools are are not offering that number one, or
the students are having to pay thousands of dollars for
private tutoring. And I just think that the support is unmatched,
(18:16):
and with black faculty understanding the obstacles that we're going
to have to go through to reach like a minimal
amount of success as our white counterparts. I think that
to me is extremely valuable and and a lot of
fields were responsible for the most black professionals, So I
I'm very adamant about this that we are. You know,
(18:37):
we can hold our own and even here do I
know everything coming in? No? Are there things that I
don't know, of course, but it doesn't scare me like
I thought it would. In fact, I'm just like, oh,
I don't know that, I'll know it after a couple
of classes. It doesn't intimidate me at all. There are
some things too that I think any black person would
(18:57):
experience that might come from a similar background. Is me like,
there are just some things that in my community we
didn't necessarily talk about, or in my family we didn't
talk about that. That comes up there even times where
I'm sitting in class and we're talking about a case
and in my head, I'm like, we could have sued
for that, or we needed a lawyer for that, And
(19:18):
it makes me excited that now my family is going
to have somebody to kind of lean on even though,
like I'm just one little girl, but somebody who you
know can be that bridge and you know, provide that
type of access to just to their family, regardless of
like the the entire community. But that to me is exciting,
(19:39):
and so it provides us a different type of awareness
about the implications of these laws and you know the
impact that it's going to have on our community that
only HBCU students are only black students are going to
be able to offer and you know, talking that through
with some of the black students in my class who
didn't go to an hbc U, but us being able
(19:59):
to here our experiences, that to me, like has made
it a little bit better. So yeah, I think we
we hold our own And if you go to an HBCU,
do not think that you because you didn't go to
Columbia or whatever school, that you couldn't get into these
places or thrive in these places, because that's absolutely not true.
I didn't apply to any hbc U law school. I
(20:22):
did not. I have my HBCU experience and I'm thankful
for that. I love my HBCU, but I want to
experience other things, like whether we like it or not,
an h b c U is not going to be
representative of what the legal profession is going to look like.
It's not. HBCUs definitely have their place, And I loved
(20:43):
my undergrad experience. I felt like I needed to branch
out and go to a different institution. I will say, though,
if like you're coming from an hbc U undergrad and
wanted to go to like a p w I law school,
you are automatically going to make friends with every black
person on that campus. You Like, it's almost always, that's
just what it is. During orientation, it's like we all
(21:05):
locked eyes with each other and we're like, we're friends now.
No matter what, we're friends now. So you automatically are
going to get some friends. At least that's what happened
at my law school. But if the the thing that
is scaring you the most is that there's not going
to be anyone that looks like me, I no longer
(21:26):
like consider that like an argument that's gonna hold like
too much weight, because whether we like it or not,
a lot of people aren't gonna look like us. This
field is not representative of the population of the United
States at all, Like they are very very little black
faces in this profession, and depending on where you want
to practice, there can be even fewer. Sometimes you're just
you're just gonna have to do it, and you're gonna
(21:48):
just have to have that support system, regardless if it's
with peers that you make, the black faculty at your school,
or even staying in contact with your friends who went
to an HBC you with you, like talking to Amya,
talking to my other friends, just staying connected with them
and make sure making sure you have your support Systeff
And honestly, your family is going to be the most
(22:10):
important thing. That's what has been the most important thing
to me since I moved back, being with my family
and being close to them. They have really supported me here.
So just don't let that scare you. You will be
just fine. Be run into any mock trialers that you
went up against. No, for me, I feel like the
(22:33):
memorable people and that sounds kind of like bad, But
the memorable people for me, um, I know where they're at,
Like they go to a different law school and they
were older than me, and then I know a couple
of younger ones. But yeah, I haven't met any competitors
though I don't know that I would maybe I would
say something, but in my head for some reason, unless
(22:55):
like I've gotten to know them outside of mock trial,
They're always competition. I have not ran into but I
have been made aware of a presence of a former competitor.
One of my close friends who currently go se UC Berkeley,
who I went to high school with, told me like, hey,
one of our captains actually go see you see Hastings
(23:18):
and we scrimmaged against them to prepare for nationals. I'm like,
oh my god, now I'm gonna see her during tryouts.
Look at that. I bring up mo trial all the
time because I'm a nerd. I haven't really met anyone
who's been like, yeah, I did it all four years.
I competed with this and this, this, So no, not
that yet. Is it too early to tell what differences
(23:42):
what uniqueness you bring to law school right now from
doing four years mock try I mean you did mention
certainly getting a case, going through the case and preparing
in that sense, like what is some of the unique
things that you have recognized that you bring with that experience.
(24:05):
I just know certain terms that people don't know. So
when the professor asked, what does this mean, I'm the
only person that raises my hand, and then I just
look kind of smart everyone else because I've already I
know what I know what it means to impeach a witness,
and I know what admissible versus inadmissible evidence is. It's
(24:28):
some of that for me. We don't There are some
classes where we don't really get to raise our hand
and ask questions just because there's any of us and
we don't have time to get through everyone. So I
don't volunteer a lot. But when I first started out,
I wasn't writing out like ten page case briefs. My
case briefs are like a page, maybe two pages, and
so I can distill the important facts a lot quicker.
(24:51):
And then I think too. A lot of the times,
if I'm talking to somebody hearing what they are assuming
to be it is important is not necessarily what I
took away from it. And sometimes that's helpful for me,
but other times I think it just shows like, oh,
because of my experience, I'm able to figure out what
the rule is very quickly figure out what the important
facts associated with that rule are, and I don't spend
(25:13):
as much time on it, and I think It's also
helpful in my lar w writing when I'm doing a
memo because um at the firm, because I didn't go
to law school already, she kind of let me formulate
like what my arguments would be or what I thought
they would be, and then have bullet points. But with
mock trial, I was able to organize things by elements
(25:35):
through my speech and through my writing, and I think
it's more helpful when I do have, um a law
that has more clear elements. And I think that's where
like my analytical reasoning shines more is when I have that. Now,
when the law isn't clear, I don't know what to
tell you, but UM, yeah, I think it's helpful for that.
I do want to ask if you've reached out or
(25:58):
have heard from this skin bro or or from Judge Res.
I have heard from Judge Reyes, me and Judge Res
text all the time. Just drawing upon experienced as a
trial litigator. You always have to be able to maintain
your composure. There will be times when people will shock you,
(26:18):
there will be times when people will anger you. There
will probably be times when cases can get unbelievably sad,
and you run through the range of human emotion. But
you always have to be a professional, and that's what
I stressed with them, And you always have to be
prepared to go forward just being an alarm and knowing
(26:40):
that our hard work, the work that me and Maya
and like so many others put in didn't go unnoticed
by the amptle world. So he messaged me the other
day and was like, Dillard just received an invite to
the University of Virginia's UVAS Great American Mock Trial Invitational
(27:01):
and it's invite only and it's one of the best
tournaments that you can get invited to. Our team got
invited to that because of what we did to get
to Nationals. I'm just like the work I put in
did something so like everybody knows who we are. We're
getting our name out there. It's getting the people you
(27:22):
know are coming after us these opportunities to go to
these really important tournaments. So I can just hope that
the momentum continues, that we keep getting invited to these
big tournaments, that we keep going to Nationals. That's fantastic,
that's really great. I first want to just mention something
that Lagene failed to mention. I don't know like the
(27:43):
opportunity was right there. Lagen's name is in one of
the cases for the current mock trial case. It's her
and another teammate, Renee Simeon. I think they've mentioned Dillard
last year, but this is the first time that two
of our members have been named in an empty case.
And first of all, me and Lagen have dreams of
creating our own um matra case when we when we
(28:05):
get on the committee after law school. But this is
just like solidifying our future. So we get case law,
so we have a case that they can use to
like help further their argument. It's Simeon v. Shelton. My
friend from Berkeley literally texted me the other day and
was like, literally, we heard your case name getting mentioned
(28:27):
so many times at this tournament we were at. I'm
important case law, Like important everybody is saying my last
day at every competition across the country. And Mrs Kimbro,
if you heard from her, and what's that been on? Well,
first of all, Judge ree Um, he's always offering encouraging
words telling me to take care of myself. Of course,
(28:48):
Mrs Kimro, we do text anytime I hear something crazy
in class or you know, just talking about mock trial.
Like a couple of days ago, someone on the team
called me asking for advice, and we we're talking about
it because I guess that someone else was doing the
same thing with her. I'm hoping that she's gonna be
out here very soon so I'll be able to see
(29:08):
her face to face. I'm very grateful to still have
both of them in my life. To echo abias point,
people from this team still call and ask me about
what certain like what this how can I apply this
rule of evidence? What does this case law mean? How
do you argue this again? And I'm just like, okay,
(29:28):
I can take a break from towards to like tell
you how it is. But how have you heard anything?
How is the team doing? I think it's going where
it should be going. I think there are some frustrations
because it's the beginning of the season and there are
some people stepping up to the plate who have never
been leaders on the team before that are kind of
(29:51):
just trying to find, you know, their style of leadership,
which is normal. I think sometimes we also forget where
we came from when it comes to mock trial. Like,
once we've gained us certain amount of experience. We forget
about what our frustrations were when we were like first
year students on the team. So I think now that
they're they're finally starting to realize, like all of the
(30:12):
ins and outs that me and Lajeni were doing behind
the scenes. Mrs Kimberrow, I think they thought, oh, Ms
kimber and Judgeries just get together and put their favorites
as the closer, closers and openers, and they didn't realize, oh,
somebody has to be actually planning the schedule to get
us to the competition. Someone has to be thinking about
if you place this person in this role, what happens
(30:32):
if this other person They don't. I don't think that
they really understood until they got to that point. It
shows some type of appreciation for stuff that me and
Lajene were doing. It feels rewarding though that your your
work didn't go overlook, like La Jennie said, um that
people still feel like they can lean on you, because
of course they can. Um. So I always try to
set aside time for people who need my help. Well,
(30:56):
this has been great and it's always great to see
you and here from you, and we're just supposed very
proud of you. I know we have no license to
be proud of you, but just to be someone who
spend a little bit of time with you and telling
your story. You know, every time I see something that
you post or that you're doing, I'm just you know,
I'm just really proud of you, and we want to
(31:18):
stay in touch and keep hearing great things from you.
Thank you. Wait, I just want to say this, Dillard, Uh,
everybody on the team. When y'all hear this, we love y'all,
We miss y'all. We're rooting for y'all. Can't wait to
see all at Nationals. If y'all have big easy online,
y'all know who to call to judge. Last Action is
(31:47):
a production of My Heart Radio and Sound Argument, created,
produced and edited by Kevin Huffman and Lisa Gray. Executive
producer are Taylor Chacogne and Katrina Norvelle. For more podcasts
from I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
(32:09):
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. H
Class Action is a production of I Heart Radio and
Sound Argument. Just as a quick hello, I'd like to
welcome everyone back to class Action and uh my partner
Lisa Gray and our special guests tonight are A Maya
and La Jane, formerly of the Diller team and now
(00:24):
first year law students. So let's start with you. Where
are you and how is school? I am currently a
one l at you see Hastings. That name might change
very soon, but that's where I currently am right now
in San Francisco, California. What why will the name change?
(00:47):
They did a background check on the person were named after,
and he was very instrumental in genocides of the UK people,
which is an indigenous tribe in California, so they want
to get rid of the name Hastings. But now his
family is suing the institution and asking for the money
he put down with over like a hundred year interests,
(01:09):
So they're asking for about a good like three million
dollars from us, which we don't have an auspicious beginning
for your first year, but good for the researchers out
there to dig this up. That's great. And amya, where
are you and what year are you in? Just kind
of let's fill in our audience. Yes, So I'm in Cambridge, Massachusetts.
(01:32):
I am currently a one ll at Harvard Law. How
would you describe Boston, you know, now that you spent
a little time there, or Cambridge. What what's it been
like for you as the first year. I don't know
that I've even experienced it to the fullest. Um. I'm
usually on campus most of the time. UM, I will say,
(01:53):
I try to set aside like two days of the
month where I like go out and treat myself to something,
and so I'm trying to find places to eat. Um.
But it's definitely not necessarily a culture shock because I
knew what I was getting myself into. But it is
a lot different from where I grew up in Florida
and also where I went to school, which was New Orleans.
(02:14):
So and you're you're back in the hometown. How's that going.
It's going pretty well. I'm used to everything around here already,
so I'm back by family. I'm happy to be back.
But at the same time, like you know, I do
miss New Orleans just a little bit, not too much,
(02:36):
just a little bit. Leg What was your first class, um,
and what was it like you know, UM, when you
when you walked in to describe that for us. So
my first class was crim pro So Criminal Procedure and
(02:56):
Hastings has a thing where you choose your seats prior,
so I didn't have to get there an hour early
to try to get a good seat. I just had
to like do a little selection thing on canvas. It
was fine, like they just jumped right into it. There's
no just things as a syllabus class here. They're like, okay,
(03:17):
so here are the elements of a crime. Now let's
go through it. I said, oh, okay, let me get
my notebook out. The same to you, am Iya. I
know I talked to you when you had visited UM,
but if you could walk us through like that first day,
you know on campus when you're going to your first class,
(03:38):
what was that like to sort of paint that picture
for us, and you know what was the class? And yeah,
So my first class was Legislation and Regulation. You know,
it was eight am, so I wasn't fully there yet.
So I don't I don't know that I have too
much to offer, but I will say I don't know.
I was I guess I was expecting like my professor
to introduce himself for something. Hi, my name is but
(04:01):
he just as soon as the class started he started
talking about the case. So that caught me off guard
a little bit. But other than that, like he's a
fabulous professor. I do remember I got my first cold
call that day during my last class and property, and
he asked me a question that wasn't necessarily in the reading,
and so I'm flipping through my notes like did I
(04:23):
miss something? Like I'm freaking out, but it was just
like one of those jokey type of questions and I
wasn't expecting that. So I'm over here like thinking I'm
about to burst out in tears, but it was fine.
It ended up being fine, and that's actually one of
my favorite classes now. But yeah, I was the first
person called in that class, and I'll never forget it.
(04:46):
You mentioned criminal procedure. What are some of the other
courses that you're taking from My first semester, I take
Criminal Procedure towards and Civil Procedure, and then I have
a legal research and writing class where I learned how
to write memos. So that's my first semester, and then
my second semester I have to take contracts, property, legal
(05:09):
writing and research and um a statutory class or constitutional
You know, in what ways did Dillard in the mock
trial team prepare you for those? Guys? I can see
you as criminal procedure because obviously this is some of
the stuff that you know you you got to know
cold through mock trial. But for some of these contract
(05:32):
classes and other things like that, what was the prep
like that you know? Our is this all kind of
new to you? Um? I wouldn't say it's new. I
would just say it puts things into a different perspective.
When you guys followed us last year, we were doing
a criminal case, but me and Maya have had two
civil cases under our belt with AMPTA, so we've done
(05:53):
towards before. We have had experience in doing towards and
um trying to find whether defending is liable or not
liable through the use of negligence. So I was fine
with that per se. But there really isn't anything else
besides knowing how to talk in front of people and
just knowing how to answer questions your honor opposing counsel.
(06:19):
Members of the journey, May it please the court follow
the Hoodies. On August one, j Len Williams, a Midlands
Center firefighter, heard the alarms of the fire station ringing,
meaning that it was time for him to once again
risk his life. With no second thought and no hesitation,
(06:40):
he grabbed his gear and rushed onto the fire truck.
And unfortunately you will learn that that search and rescue
mission did end in one cavity, and on that very day,
Midland's lost a hero and a citizen the most important,
a family lost. Suns Beyond loss, j willis back to you, amya.
(07:09):
Just give us a sense of some of the other
courses that you're taking. Yeah, I'm basically taking the inverse
of what Legen is taking. I think the only class
we share is SIV PRO and um LRW Legal Research
and Writing. Um, so I'm taking those two, and I'm
also taking Contracts, property and leg RIG. I think for me,
(07:30):
material wise, property might be my favorite class, followed by
SIV PRO because I think I do have some experience
there and for me because I was our Urban Studies
in Public Policy major. Right now, um, we're learning about
mortgages and just like a week or so ago, we
were talking about urban renewal or negro removal, and in
my head I'm like, oh my gosh, me and Dr Trevor,
(07:51):
we're talking about this. So I do get a little
bit excited there because I understand it, and this class
kind of gives a different layer of context and I
kind of can think about the implications in my community,
and so I appreciate when, you know, my professors do that.
And as far as sif PRO, I think basically me
(08:11):
and Logen a kind of had a really good briefing
to sif PRO because we worked for Hamilton Lewis, which
is a black owned law firm in New Orleans, and
Rashawn Hamilton are boss. Shout out to her. She must
have thought she was our sif PRO professor because she
had us writing petitions, motions, discovery and so when like
that stuff pops up in my class, I get so excited,
(08:33):
Like I'm looking at my old folder at my stuff
to try to better understand it, because before I was
just kind of going through the motions because that's what
she told me to do, and that what she said
lawyers did, and I had the rules and stuff, but
I didn't understand the justification in the years of history
and cases that got us to that point. I was
going through the motion. So now having that background makes
(08:55):
it a little bit more exciting. I'm not gonna say
that it's the easiest class, because it's not, but just
like having some familiarity to hold onto, I think has
been helpful so far. Have there been any doubts about
going to law school or has it fulfilled the expectations
that you were anticipating going into these programs. I think
(09:19):
there was more fear before I got here. And I'll say,
first of all, I'm glad, like I'm grateful for the
experiences that I've had because I think I'm in a
much better place now because of that. I hope I'm
making sense of this, But basically, I've dealt with imposture
syndrome for years, anxiety for years. But through summer programs
(09:42):
that you know, during undergrad or through mock trial, or
just through my professor's really supporting me, my parents, I think,
not necessarily that that got rid of all of my
issues or anything, but it equipped me for you know,
this space. I could be having a million breakdowns a day,
and of course there are tough moments. I've had a
couple of tears here and there, but I think just
(10:06):
I've been trained to lean on God and family, and
I'm not in the place that I thought I would be.
In fact, like, I'll go to class and there are
some days where I'm bored. I'm not gonna lie, but
there are other times where I'm just so excited to
be there and learn. And that's something that I used
to feel like as a kid, like learning about history
or something like that, just like I genuinely liked school,
(10:28):
and that's obviously what I'm here today. But I felt
like not all of my classes at Dillard, of course,
but you know, as I have finished my major courses
and I just was like taking electives here or there,
I lost kind of that excitement. And then, of course,
with my priority for a lot of the time being
mock trial, I didn't allow myself room to grow in
(10:49):
a lot of areas. And I think here I get
that childlike feeling back, and I'm just you know, excite,
like my brain is a sponge. And I thought I
was gonna go in here that coming straight from college,
I thought it was gonna be dried up and that
I couldn't abdure any more information. But that's definitely not
the case for me. I think we went into this
(11:09):
knowing it was gonna be very difficult. I can't even
count how many times, like when I've told somebody whether
it was like a pre law director Dillard, or like
I asked another like person who I knew who went
to law school is currently in law school. They were like,
law school is extremely hard? Law school is this law school?
Is that? I didn't really hear any nice things about
(11:29):
law school, so I came into it. You know, it's
gonna be really difficult. It's not going to be the
easiest thing. So you just kind of have to, you know,
manage your expectations and just be like, look, it's it's
gonna be getting ready, getting right to work. It's just
all about managing your expectations. But I feel like, like
(11:50):
I knew I came here, I had a job to do,
and I got people that are counting on me to
complete that job. So I'm a dude, what needs to
be done? What is the hardest part for me? At least,
I think the hardest part is just like running off
a very little sleep, because on mine, I can tell you,
like I love to take a nice nap. I used
(12:12):
to take naps every day. I scheduled in a nap
every single day. I wake up at like six thirty
every day and I don't go to sleep until like two.
So it's it's very tiring, it's very exhausting, and you're
expected to digest all of this information off a very
(12:32):
little sleep and very little food and a whole bunch
of coffee. I did. I did not used to drink coffee.
Now I drink coffee every day. It's just the hardest
part is just like balancing taking care of yourself and
taking care of business. I kind of have to second
that it's not necessarily that much of a thing for
(12:53):
me this time around, because knows, there's been moments where
I've been passing out getting sick because as a mock trial,
and so I just had it beat into me that
I needed to start taking care of myself. And now
I'm just now starting to do it. So the least
amount of sleep I'll allow myself to have is like
six hours. I'm trying to take care of myself. I
(13:14):
think for me though, the worst part about it, and
I think Logen could agree with this. We're kind of perfectionists,
and I think even if we're not immediately good at something.
We train ourselves until the thing that scares us the
most is what we're the best at. So like, even
with objections, there was times like in high school, I
(13:34):
never objected. I might respond well to it, but I
wouldn't have, you know, the guts to just object if
I didn't think of all of the twelve arguments that
might come after that objection. And I just beat that
into me until you know, I got it right and
it didn't become It's not perfect now, but I didn't
get to be a Maya by you know, not practicing,
(13:57):
and it took me all throughout college to get there.
And with this, like, we have so little time in
the day that you have to kind of decide, Okay,
am I gonna give this time to myself and rest
and for me, I'm I'm religious. Am I gonna read
the Bible during this one hour free time? Am I
gonna go to the gym? Am I gonna read whatever
(14:20):
cases I have that I haven't finished for tomorrow? Am
I gonna do some additional work and look at old
tests and try to figure out how I would solve
the problems on the test. And it's it's difficult trying
to find and prioritize your time in that way. And
I'm a very organized person with my planner and stuff
like that, but even just choosing not to do a
(14:41):
reading is such a big thing. And then now I
feel like I'm behind. And I also feel like because
I didn't necessarily get full credit on this one assignment,
that means I don't understand it, when in reality, this
is something that I've been doing for years at a
law firm and I do understand it. I just can't
fully flesh out my argument. And as I'm talking now,
(15:01):
I'm realizing that that's not a new problem. Like I've
understood concepts in mock trial, but it took me a
long time to fully flesh out that argument and understand
or get other people to understand why I was right.
I think I just have to apply that same type
of practice to my work here. So yeah, just saying
that out loud kind of makes me feel better. But
(15:23):
I think just allowing myself room to grow and understanding
that it's not gonna come overnight it's still hard though.
Definitely they want you to forget that their family is
counting on us to do what's just They want you
to forget that their family wakes up every single day
hoping that they'll see their son again, that they want
(15:44):
to believe that this is all a dream, that they
cry at the thought of someone else taking over his
locker or his seat at the dinner table. Members of
the jury, the real victim is not here today. The
villain in today's case is the defendant. Defendant is the
person with the plan. The defendant is the person with
(16:04):
the motive. The defendant is the person who, the day
after the fire, was not even enough time to mourn
their business. Requested at one point five million dollars in full,
members of the jury, do what's justin today's case. We've
done our job. We've proven these elements to you beyond
a reasonable doubt. So now it's your time, your moment,
(16:27):
to do what's right in today's case, and to show
the defendant that when they burn their building they can't
get away with it. We must hold them accountable, find
them guilty. Thank you, thank you. Yes, yes. Maybe For
(16:51):
those listeners who are currently at an HBCU like you were,
uh and thinking about going to law school, is there
any transition or is there something that you feel like
it's important to point out for those students who might
be going into a school that's not an HBCU for
(17:12):
law school. I've been saying this since before I even
got into law school. First of all, when I was
even talking about applying to an HBCU, I had friends
very confused as to why, and I constantly had them
had to make the argument, like why HBCUs were so valuable.
(17:32):
My mom went to one, so that's why I knew.
And I even got into n y U. They didn't
give me any money, but I was encouraged by like
a counselor to go there instead because the degree would
be worth more. And to a lot of people that
might seem true. But I've done summer programs where people
from Ivy League institutions will say, we don't have anything
(17:53):
close to what the pre law program at Dealer is
offering you. So we have the lead program there for
two hundred dollars and you can get some of that back.
They're offering us what six five months of els at prep.
Other schools are are not offering that number one, or
the students are having to pay thousands of dollars for
private tutoring. And I just think that the support is unmatched,
(18:16):
and with black faculty understanding the obstacles that we're going
to have to go through to reach like a minimal
amount of success as our white counterparts. I think that
to me is extremely valuable and and a lot of
fields were responsible for the most black professionals, So I
I'm very adamant about this that we are. You know,
(18:37):
we can hold our own and even here do I
know everything coming in? No? Are there things that I
don't know, of course, but it doesn't scare me like
I thought it would. In fact, I'm just like, oh,
I don't know that, I'll know it after a couple
of classes. It doesn't intimidate me at all. There are
some things too that I think any black person would
(18:57):
experience that might come from a similar background. Is me like,
there are just some things that in my community we
didn't necessarily talk about, or in my family we didn't
talk about that. That comes up there even times where
I'm sitting in class and we're talking about a case
and in my head, I'm like, we could have sued
for that, or we needed a lawyer for that, And
(19:18):
it makes me excited that now my family is going
to have somebody to kind of lean on even though,
like I'm just one little girl, but somebody who you
know can be that bridge and you know, provide that
type of access to just to their family, regardless of
like the the entire community. But that to me is exciting,
(19:39):
and so it provides us a different type of awareness
about the implications of these laws and you know the
impact that it's going to have on our community that
only HBCU students are only black students are going to
be able to offer and you know, talking that through
with some of the black students in my class who
didn't go to an hbc U, but us being able
(19:59):
to here our experiences, that to me, like has made
it a little bit better. So yeah, I think we
we hold our own And if you go to an HBCU,
do not think that you because you didn't go to
Columbia or whatever school, that you couldn't get into these
places or thrive in these places, because that's absolutely not true.
I didn't apply to any hbc U law school. I
(20:22):
did not. I have my HBCU experience and I'm thankful
for that. I love my HBCU, but I want to
experience other things, like whether we like it or not,
an h b c U is not going to be
representative of what the legal profession is going to look like.
It's not. HBCUs definitely have their place, And I loved
(20:43):
my undergrad experience. I felt like I needed to branch
out and go to a different institution. I will say, though,
if like you're coming from an hbc U undergrad and
wanted to go to like a p w I law school,
you are automatically going to make friends with every black
person on that campus. You Like, it's almost always, that's
just what it is. During orientation, it's like we all
(21:05):
locked eyes with each other and we're like, we're friends now.
No matter what, we're friends now. So you automatically are
going to get some friends. At least that's what happened
at my law school. But if the the thing that
is scaring you the most is that there's not going
to be anyone that looks like me, I no longer
(21:26):
like consider that like an argument that's gonna hold like
too much weight, because whether we like it or not,
a lot of people aren't gonna look like us. This
field is not representative of the population of the United
States at all, Like they are very very little black
faces in this profession, and depending on where you want
to practice, there can be even fewer. Sometimes you're just
you're just gonna have to do it, and you're gonna
(21:48):
just have to have that support system, regardless if it's
with peers that you make, the black faculty at your school,
or even staying in contact with your friends who went
to an HBC you with you, like talking to Amya,
talking to my other friends, just staying connected with them
and make sure making sure you have your support Systeff
And honestly, your family is going to be the most
(22:10):
important thing. That's what has been the most important thing
to me since I moved back, being with my family
and being close to them. They have really supported me here.
So just don't let that scare you. You will be
just fine. Be run into any mock trialers that you
went up against. No, for me, I feel like the
(22:33):
memorable people and that sounds kind of like bad, But
the memorable people for me, um, I know where they're at,
Like they go to a different law school and they
were older than me, and then I know a couple
of younger ones. But yeah, I haven't met any competitors
though I don't know that I would maybe I would
say something, but in my head for some reason, unless
(22:55):
like I've gotten to know them outside of mock trial,
They're always competition. I have not ran into but I
have been made aware of a presence of a former competitor.
One of my close friends who currently go se UC Berkeley,
who I went to high school with, told me like, hey,
one of our captains actually go see you see Hastings
(23:18):
and we scrimmaged against them to prepare for nationals. I'm like,
oh my god, now I'm gonna see her during tryouts.
Look at that. I bring up mo trial all the
time because I'm a nerd. I haven't really met anyone
who's been like, yeah, I did it all four years.
I competed with this and this, this, So no, not
that yet. Is it too early to tell what differences
(23:42):
what uniqueness you bring to law school right now from
doing four years mock try I mean you did mention
certainly getting a case, going through the case and preparing
in that sense, like what is some of the unique
things that you have recognized that you bring with that experience.
(24:05):
I just know certain terms that people don't know. So
when the professor asked, what does this mean, I'm the
only person that raises my hand, and then I just
look kind of smart everyone else because I've already I
know what I know what it means to impeach a witness,
and I know what admissible versus inadmissible evidence is. It's
(24:28):
some of that for me. We don't There are some
classes where we don't really get to raise our hand
and ask questions just because there's any of us and
we don't have time to get through everyone. So I
don't volunteer a lot. But when I first started out,
I wasn't writing out like ten page case briefs. My
case briefs are like a page, maybe two pages, and
so I can distill the important facts a lot quicker.
(24:51):
And then I think too. A lot of the times,
if I'm talking to somebody hearing what they are assuming
to be it is important is not necessarily what I
took away from it. And sometimes that's helpful for me,
but other times I think it just shows like, oh,
because of my experience, I'm able to figure out what
the rule is very quickly figure out what the important
facts associated with that rule are, and I don't spend
(25:13):
as much time on it, and I think It's also
helpful in my lar w writing when I'm doing a
memo because um at the firm, because I didn't go
to law school already, she kind of let me formulate
like what my arguments would be or what I thought
they would be, and then have bullet points. But with
mock trial, I was able to organize things by elements
(25:35):
through my speech and through my writing, and I think
it's more helpful when I do have, um a law
that has more clear elements. And I think that's where
like my analytical reasoning shines more is when I have that. Now,
when the law isn't clear, I don't know what to
tell you, but UM, yeah, I think it's helpful for that.
I do want to ask if you've reached out or
(25:58):
have heard from this skin bro or or from Judge Res.
I have heard from Judge Reyes, me and Judge Res
text all the time. Just drawing upon experienced as a
trial litigator. You always have to be able to maintain
your composure. There will be times when people will shock you,
(26:18):
there will be times when people will anger you. There
will probably be times when cases can get unbelievably sad,
and you run through the range of human emotion. But
you always have to be a professional, and that's what
I stressed with them, And you always have to be
prepared to go forward just being an alarm and knowing
(26:40):
that our hard work, the work that me and Maya
and like so many others put in didn't go unnoticed
by the amptle world. So he messaged me the other
day and was like, Dillard just received an invite to
the University of Virginia's UVAS Great American Mock Trial Invitational
(27:01):
and it's invite only and it's one of the best
tournaments that you can get invited to. Our team got
invited to that because of what we did to get
to Nationals. I'm just like the work I put in
did something so like everybody knows who we are. We're
getting our name out there. It's getting the people you
(27:22):
know are coming after us these opportunities to go to
these really important tournaments. So I can just hope that
the momentum continues, that we keep getting invited to these
big tournaments, that we keep going to Nationals. That's fantastic,
that's really great. I first want to just mention something
that Lagene failed to mention. I don't know like the
(27:43):
opportunity was right there. Lagen's name is in one of
the cases for the current mock trial case. It's her
and another teammate, Renee Simeon. I think they've mentioned Dillard
last year, but this is the first time that two
of our members have been named in an empty case.
And first of all, me and Lagen have dreams of
creating our own um matra case when we when we
(28:05):
get on the committee after law school. But this is
just like solidifying our future. So we get case law,
so we have a case that they can use to
like help further their argument. It's Simeon v. Shelton. My
friend from Berkeley literally texted me the other day and
was like, literally, we heard your case name getting mentioned
(28:27):
so many times at this tournament we were at. I'm
important case law, Like important everybody is saying my last
day at every competition across the country. And Mrs Kimbro,
if you heard from her, and what's that been on? Well,
first of all, Judge ree Um, he's always offering encouraging
words telling me to take care of myself. Of course,
(28:48):
Mrs Kimro, we do text anytime I hear something crazy
in class or you know, just talking about mock trial.
Like a couple of days ago, someone on the team
called me asking for advice, and we we're talking about
it because I guess that someone else was doing the
same thing with her. I'm hoping that she's gonna be
out here very soon so I'll be able to see
(29:08):
her face to face. I'm very grateful to still have
both of them in my life. To echo abias point,
people from this team still call and ask me about
what certain like what this how can I apply this
rule of evidence? What does this case law mean? How
do you argue this again? And I'm just like, okay,
(29:28):
I can take a break from towards to like tell
you how it is. But how have you heard anything?
How is the team doing? I think it's going where
it should be going. I think there are some frustrations
because it's the beginning of the season and there are
some people stepping up to the plate who have never
been leaders on the team before that are kind of
(29:51):
just trying to find, you know, their style of leadership,
which is normal. I think sometimes we also forget where
we came from when it comes to mock trial. Like,
once we've gained us certain amount of experience. We forget
about what our frustrations were when we were like first
year students on the team. So I think now that
they're they're finally starting to realize, like all of the
(30:12):
ins and outs that me and Lajeni were doing behind
the scenes. Mrs Kimberrow, I think they thought, oh, Ms
kimber and Judgeries just get together and put their favorites
as the closer, closers and openers, and they didn't realize, oh,
somebody has to be actually planning the schedule to get
us to the competition. Someone has to be thinking about
if you place this person in this role, what happens
(30:32):
if this other person They don't. I don't think that
they really understood until they got to that point. It
shows some type of appreciation for stuff that me and
Lajene were doing. It feels rewarding though that your your
work didn't go overlook, like La Jennie said, um that
people still feel like they can lean on you, because
of course they can. Um. So I always try to
set aside time for people who need my help. Well,
(30:56):
this has been great and it's always great to see
you and here from you, and we're just supposed very
proud of you. I know we have no license to
be proud of you, but just to be someone who
spend a little bit of time with you and telling
your story. You know, every time I see something that
you post or that you're doing, I'm just you know,
I'm just really proud of you, and we want to
(31:18):
stay in touch and keep hearing great things from you.
Thank you. Wait, I just want to say this, Dillard, Uh,
everybody on the team. When y'all hear this, we love y'all,
We miss y'all. We're rooting for y'all. Can't wait to
see all at Nationals. If y'all have big easy online,
y'all know who to call to judge. Last Action is
(31:47):
a production of My Heart Radio and Sound Argument, created,
produced and edited by Kevin Huffman and Lisa Gray. Executive
producer are Taylor Chacogne and Katrina Norvelle. For more podcasts
from I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
(32:09):
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. H
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