June 7, 2022 • 64 mins
The 100-degree heat in San Antonio won't stop St. Mary's University coach AJ Bellido de Luna from drilling his team on the fundamentals. “We’re going to be the largest populated school for Latino law students. These students are here to make a difference,” he says. And for coach Laura Rose at the University of South Dakota, being midwest nice has no place in a mock trial tournament. She lays down the law; “You guys are engaged in a highly competitive law school sport.”
Learn more about the schools, programs and special guests:
St. Mary's University Law School
University of South Dakota Knudson School of Law
Follow us on Twitter @ClassActionPod and Instagram @ClassActionPod
Visit our show page for transcripts and more details about the series at ClassActionPod.com
Follow host Katie Phang on Twitter @KatiePhang and Instagram @KatiePhang.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Class Action is a production of my heart radio and
sound argument. Kill kill kill, blood makes the grass grow,
kill kill killoo makes the grass GRASSOULA. Well, I just
(00:27):
want to tell the team that you know, we're new
to this, but we're true to this because you went
through the competition and if you weren't any good at all,
you wouldn't be here. We may not be the best,
but we were good enough to get on this team,
so let's do what we gotta do. The whole goal
after this is when you go into the courtroom, there's
somebody depending on you to advocate for them, so let's
(00:49):
learn it now because their life could be on their line,
their finances could be on their line, their family could
be on the line. This is fun, this is great,
but we have to look up for our clients who
we don't even know who there are, but they're waiting
for us. They're waiting words. Our first team with six
(01:09):
lands with a CS at sixteen and a half. Opedia
plus thirty nine tells sixteen you're listening to the sounds
of the next generation of American lawyers. This is Class Action,
(01:34):
a year long journey inside the hyper competitive world of
law school, mock trial We found three schools with amazing
stories to tell, starting with St. Mary's University in San Antonio,
where we follow one team on their dramatic trip to
the top. We got beat up, bad, bad, until the
(01:57):
point where like we're like, oh, it can't get any worse,
until it did, and then it did again, and then
we're just like, you know what, let's do this, like
we know what we need to fix. We got this, like,
let's believe in ourselves. And it's been good. The University
of South Dakota, where a new coach is turning around
a program with students who are guilty of being too
(02:19):
nice in the courtroom, the reports of this fighter that
there was blood everywhere, right, that everybody was bleeding. Why
isn't there blood in the front passenger seat, Why isn't
the victims blood other places in the car? And from
deep in the heart of Brooklyn and all female team
from Brooklyn Law fights, the Ivy League champions, just how
(02:43):
we got them that so many stay and we just
all like tackled her to the ground and we're crying
and screaming and so happy. And to get an idea
of the future of mock trial, we meet students from
the undergraduate pre law program at Dillard University. It's a
team that's been forced to come together after Hurricane Ida
(03:07):
lays waste to their campus. This sport will humble you
so quick in the best way possible. It will really
like let you know you need to buckle down and
do what you have to do. It will really show
you like your potential, and it will also show you
the places that you lag. I'm Katie Fang. This is
class action. Some people say jury trials they're going away,
(03:44):
and there's plenty of evidence to support that. Personally, I
think it's more than a shame. I think it's a crisis,
a crisis for our democracy because if you've ever had
to go to trial and you've had a lousy trial lawyer,
it's a real crisis for you. But there may be
hope on the horizon. Ever since I was kid, I
(04:04):
wanted to be a lawyer. Just always wanted to do that,
and it was kind of like law or nothing. I'm
sure it could be good at something else, but I
just this is my heart. I would say what appeals
to me is the overarching justice system and the fact
that everyone is innocent until proven guilty, but in society.
That is not the case in society. Is if you
(04:27):
see a news report that so and so was involved
in a robbery, they did it. They did the robbery,
and I think that's unfair. Okay, here's one paragraph I
can read. That same day, I signed up for something
called mock trial, thinking I would learn a few things
about speaking effectively. I began sitting in the backup practices
and watching the student lawyers argue their cases. My coaches
(04:50):
didn't let that fly for too long. They insisted I
lead strategy discussions and present every side of the case
until I knew the facts of the story like it
were my own. I have brown skin, I am Indian.
I am not well represented in a courtroom setting. Typically,
I'm not who you see on a courtroom drama. For example,
(05:12):
the other day I was talking to my friend and
I was like, yeah, you know, I did this moot
court thing, and he said, oh, like in those courtroom dramas, like,
do you watch them for inspiration? And I honestly was.
I said no, because those people don't look like me.
They don't have my style. They're white males generally, and
for the most part, like I'm building this myself. Whatever
(05:32):
comes out um in a courtroom is because I built
that persona Every occupation is important in its own way,
but I feel like in this type, especially criminal law,
you're with somebody at the worst time of their life.
Every inch of my body felt uncomfortable, to the point
where I felt like quitting. But something about the sport
(05:54):
made me keep coming back. I trained my mind in
my tongue so substantially that the courtroom became the place
where I felt the most comfortable. I learned that being
a litigator isn't about the objections you make or how
smart you sound. It's about your body language, the way
your voice bends, and the words you use. Most importantly,
it's about the way you connect with people and the
truth you're able to uncover. It's about the stories you tell.
(06:19):
This is episode one boot Camp for Lawyers. You're all
(06:40):
ready for me Interestacing City a j don't stand up,
(07:01):
stand up, stand up, stand up, pound on the table,
cut it down the table, Oh my god, oh yeah, who.
I'm the dean of advocacy, so, believe it or not,
we already did some advocacy here today. None of you
(07:21):
wanted to stand up on world would and pound on
the table, But I got you to do that. That,
to me is the world of advocacy, getting people to
do something that they don't want to do on their own.
For me, it's in the courtroom. I want the judge
to do what I want the judge to do. I
(07:43):
want the jury to do what I want the jury
to do. And I need to train you to do
what I do. That's my world. Close your eyes for
a second. Last night, you thought about your first day
in law school. There was a picture in your head.
How many of you imagined yourself in front of a
(08:06):
jury or a judge making an argument. It's okay to dream,
and here we're gonna help you fulfill that dream, for
each and every one of you that want it. Some
of you are here because something happened in your life.
Some of you have been wronged or a family member
(08:29):
has been wronged. Some of you have been victims, and
that's why you're here, because you want to make a difference.
It's just a small number of people that can control
our liberty to make sure that it is maintained. You
have a unique responsibility. We're doing really important stuff here
(08:55):
and I need you to keep going. The National Trial Team.
M we practice going to trial as a member of
the National Trial Team. Before you graduate, you will have
no less than seventy trials under your belt, practicing in
front of judges and law practitioners. I invite you to
(09:18):
be a member of the National Trial Your success depends
on each other. Put your arm around each other, take
care of each other, and good luck and muscle and
(09:43):
coming one else did breakfast? I was gonna say, you
get some breakfast tacos. St. Mary's University sits on a
flat piece of land in the west side of San Antonio.
So give you a lay of the land. Here. Rabba
is the original law school. Now it's just offices. St.
(10:06):
Mary's is the first Catholic university in Texas, founded by
the brothers of the Society of Mary in eighteen fifty two.
That's the law school library. That's the administration building. This
is the main classroom building, just seven years after Texas
became a state. So you have the rest of the university.
But we're right here in our own little corner. When
(10:28):
you take a look around, what's gonna set us apart
when you go to these other schools. Our student population
has a huge Hispanic Latino population. We're probably going to
be the largest populated school for Latino law students, which
is really important to us that we we had that
(10:48):
opportunity that other schools don't happen. It's fantastic, Lamosambisa Pole.
It hasn't meet that then, than thank you, mamma, But
(11:09):
I did my I just liked. So. Our school has
an oath that every student takes when they first come in.
You you take a bunch of oaths as a lawyer,
so we figured we might as well let's start one here.
(11:40):
The things that the students are pledging to honesty, morality, integrity, trustworthiness, honor.
These are the things that I expect and we demand
from all of our students. But we want them to
make that commitment from their first day on campus and
(12:00):
saying this pledge does just that. Diligent always. So I'm
looking at that pledge. I have it on a bulletin
board above my desk. I, Patricia Roberts, do solemnly pledge
that I will engage in the diligent study of law,
(12:21):
always acting in an honest, moral and professional manner. I
will be guided by the spirit of hospitality, collaboration, mutual support,
and scholarship, which are the ideals of a Marriness university.
And I will be trustworthy, honorable, and professional in all
aspects of my life. Trustworthy all. So do you go
(12:57):
by a J Belido de lu? Are you just a
J Belido? Like? What's no? No, never believe o never
de luna never Luna never day believe it or not.
Some people use that the last name is Beth Luna.
It's a double l. So you had the right accent. No,
(13:23):
and in California, Okay. As soon as I heard about
this particular podcast, I log geeked out. Trial ad was
a big part of my law school experience. It was
instrumental in leading me to not go to big law
(13:45):
and to go to the grind of big law and
I went to be a prosecutor. I attribute that love
and that passion for trial and advocacy like true trial
advocacy because of the mock trials and the litigation skills program.
So so yes, so you and I are like minded
when it comes to this. There is this old saying
(14:06):
I'm gonna butcher it, but I do like to live
by this kind of old adage. It was a Judy
Garland quote about you know, the best thing is to
basically be yourself. That being said, though, if you could
build the perfect trial team students trial team student member,
what would that trial team member be? I never thought
(14:29):
about that, to be honest, And I think the reason
why I've never thought about that is because I truly
believe that I am not trying to make somebody into something.
More So, what I want is I want to meet
(14:50):
the students where they are and to help build their
skills and their abilities so that they can be the
best lawyer they can possibly be. Earning a coveted spot
(15:16):
on the trial team at St. Mary's is not automatic. Hey,
three else, come here, three Else. Tryouts are held in
the spring for second and third year law students only,
and just to get this out of the way, second
year law students they're called two Ells. Third year students
they're known as three l's. Okay, remember how nervous you
(15:36):
guys were. This is like their passage into here. We're
here to help them, do not give them advanced lessons.
There are two people here that are here on a
look see the first one. In early August, the two
L's and roll in a trial advocacy class top by
a j and after five o'clock they braved the heat
(15:59):
for an intensive one week boot camp where they're going
to be drilled on everything from how to stand, where
to stand, how to talk, when to shut up, and
all of the bedrock procedures operating inside of a courtroom. Hey, hey,
(16:20):
what are you doing here? I'm healthy? Oh good team player?
Look at you? Always a team player. I grew up
playing team I got in trouble for stalking too long
and told me to shut up. Happy you think we
get today? Emily Parker is one of a handful of
(16:41):
three l's who are earning extra credit for coaching at
the boot camp. Our boot camp which is basically a
crash course on evidence, on the trial procedure, cross examinations,
and just getting comfortable with learning at a fast pace,
but also just the very basic rules for how a
trial operates and what what you need to know and
(17:03):
the nuts and bolts. So then when they start their
Trial Advocacy Skills class in the fall, they'll be they'll
be ready to go. Hey, welcome to the first day.
Here's what I want you to do. Unless you're Andy,
Emily or Jess, I'll want you to go down there
(17:24):
I'm gonna go address them, and I want you to
work with them. And as soon as you believe somebody
is ready for the test, they could come up to
me or dead. We're gonna be at the top of
the steps, they'll be at the bottom of the steps.
They'll recite, they'll be allowed in. If they don't pass,
we're gonna send them back. You guys need to grab
(17:45):
them and work with them, have them recited for you again.
All right, let's go address them and get them to work.
My name is Abby. I don't want to speak for
anyone else, but when he said boot Campbell, I was imagining,
I mean in the Texas weather, like out in the
gass doing laps and like yelling the rules of evidence,
(18:05):
so anything, it was like better than that, Hi, Hi
might lencinas. I was a bit intimidated, um, but definitely
just from you know, tryouts, there was still that level
of you know, scariness, not really knowing you know, what
his personality was, how he was going to approach this
whole thing. A couple of minutes. It's good to work.
(18:26):
It's Jared's birthday. To day, Oh my god, Jared's birthday.
Howld are you these twenty three. Happy birthday, that's awesome.
Did you bring cake? I didn't know. I was hoping
you would. I believe that you have to bring cake
(18:47):
when hit your birthday, chocolate with chocolate frosting. To the rules.
All right, get to work. SONA medslaren a dec lauren
is a person who makes a statement and here's say.
Um is a statement that the declarent makes while not
testifying in the current trial or hearing um, and the
party offers it into evidence for the truth of the matter.
(19:08):
Asserted the rule number four hearsay, Yes, what's the real number?
Eight one? It's the real number p four oh one.
I'm sorry, that's right, that's fine, that you're fine through it. So,
in order to make phase two of the team, they
had to memorize I don't know, like twelve rules of evidence.
(19:29):
They were given two hours to write down these rules
word for word. They were graded. You have to get
or better on the test in order to stay on
the team. So they've already memorized them for writing. Well,
now they have to come in and give it to
me verbally. What is the definition of relevance? Evidence is
(19:50):
relevant if a has any tendency to make a fact
more or less probable than it would be without the evidence,
and be the fact type of consequence and determined to actions.
I love it. What is the definition of here saying?
Here saying is a statement other than one made by
the declarant while testifying at the trial or hearing offered
an evidence to prove the truth of the matter? Is
(20:10):
sort of okay, good job. What is the definition of
relevance evidence as relevant if it has any Why? For
those people that are listening and wondering and scratching their head.
There's dozens of rules of evidence in the Federal Rules
of Evidence, that's right. Why those specifically? And if I'm
(20:33):
able to recite it back to you? Why is that
some type of threshold success for me to be able
to get my foot on the door to even be
considered to be on the St. Mary's team. It's a
little bit of effort to memorize that. So they're looking
up at you and they have to recite these two
rules to walk past me, to come up the stairs
(20:55):
and walk past me. So there's an elevation that happens. Right,
there's a feeling inside. It's part psychological, it's there's a
whole lot of reasons for it, but it's all part
of that process of if you don't care, if you're
not willing to do just this little bit, I don't
(21:15):
have time for you. Okay, stay your name for the record.
It's cool, do alright, Cole. What is the definition of hearsay? Hearsay?
Hear say a statement other than one made by the
declaring while testifying at the trial hearing offered nevidence for
the truth for the matter of serv This is my
first year on the trial team. I did mootcourt prior
(21:37):
to this, So this kind of activity it's very difficult
to just really jump into because you've got to know
a lot of basic tenants of law that we've kind
of only just touched on. Three years ago. I was
in your English class and um, I gotta be um.
I was involved in a car accident today. Is my
English class be relevant? It is not. Why not, because
(22:01):
it has no bearing on the practic hand or the action,
which is a car exact Welcome to boardicle. Okay, find
a second person. It looks like Jasmine is available. Say
your name for the record. My name is Karen Crawford.
All right, Miss Crawford. You and I are walking down
the street. We just had a cup of coffee. All
of a sudden we hear crash and someone yells out,
(22:23):
holy cow, that guy went through a red light. Is
that here saying the person who said it, no, because
he saw it with the di Is it an out
of court statement? It's out of court. Is it being
offered for the truth? Not that moment? Go back, go back,
go back. Oh my god, that okay, Karen, let's do it.
(22:47):
So many trips up? Yeah? How did they do? As
you go through this process, I really want you to
think about it this way. The rules of evidence are
not to keep evidence out. The rules of evidence are
to guide you on how you bring evidence in. It
(23:10):
tells you how to get it in. If you look
at it that way, it becomes a lot easier than
it's this barrier. It's not a barrier. It's a welcoming
that we're gonna have a really, really busy week. We're
gonna be out here for most of it. I brought
a cooler, Andy brought the ice. Drink often drink a lot,
(23:31):
stay hydrated. We should hit a hunter and two tomorrow.
Offered in evidence to prove the truth of the matter
of certain is the statement made out of court. Yes,
the statement is made out of courts on the street.
So then that statement is because it is being offered
to prove the truth of the matter started. So therefore
it is saying thank you. Come on in? Is that everybody?
(23:56):
That man? Awesome? All right? Come on, everybody, let's get
to work. Y'all made it. That was really easy? When't it?
When not easy? Give yourselves a block. Come on. Now
you know the definitions. Now you need to learn how
(24:16):
to use them. Our first assignment is to get to
know each other. Team up with somebody. No one's gonna
ask a single question. When I say ones, go for
three minutes without stopping. I need you to tell a
story about yourself to the other person. The person may
(24:39):
not ask you a single question. You will just tell
the story about you. I hope to god you came
here with a piece of paper and a pencil, because
while the other person is talking, you're taking notes, and
you may not stop talking until I say stop. Let's
(25:01):
get this table combined with this table, and that table
combined with that table. You need to throw over here.
Today I'm going to tell you a story about how
my house burned down. True story from when I was seven.
One night I went to sleep. It was a Sunday night.
We didn't have school the next day, so my older
(25:21):
brother was awake and he awoke to a bank glass
crashing everywhere. I used to teach at Maryland. I used
to do this when I was a Maryland and I
know that at Maryland, I would teach something one time
and I was done with it. It was over. I
didn't have to do it again. That's not where I am.
And I learned in addition to that, like whatever we
(25:42):
say could really get us in jail, Like it didn't
matter what we were saying. I mean, I'm not knocking
my kids. I'm just saying that they need a different teacher.
They need me to be a different teacher. Thirty seconds later,
run way back, so I try to take off. I'm
not getting kids that even know what trial advocacy is,
(26:04):
or some of them may have had an experience in
high school, but they weren't on a national champion high
school team. Okay, stop talking, stop laughing, not just kidding,
leave everything behind. Just bring your chair and put him
in this box. So when you come up here, I
(26:29):
want you to say your name and the person you're
introducing and tell us about that person. I'll take volunteers.
So yeah, I love that. Let's get it over with
who you are, who you're introducing, tell us your story.
Can someone take notes? Take notes and these stories? So Hi,
(26:52):
my name is Maria Ansinas and this was my partner,
Raven Benya, and she told me the story of why
law school, which I'm sure all of us have been
asked before. So she went ahead and started off with
how she was concerned for people. She had a concern
in her heart for people specifically. I just moved here
(27:12):
for law school, so it was a little rough my
first year. I won't lie moving. I've never lived away
from home, away from family, so I have no lawyers
in the family. Um, but I was a legal secretary
and a paralegal prior to coming to law school. Law
school was always the plan, just kind of took a
little while to get in there. So she went ahead
and started to do a lot of activist work. She
(27:36):
became an activist, but she quickly learned that the FBI
would get involved in a lot of things, and she
learned the whole culture of security and how any little
thing that she said or her friends said ultimately was
tracked and ultimately could lead to a lot of I
didn't want to be the behind the scenes person. Everything
(27:58):
that staff does is so important, but I wanted to
be the advocate in the courtroom. And I was just
through watching those other advocates that I was just like, Yep,
that's that's what I need to do. My specific interest
is in Special Victims Unit, sex crimes, crimes against children,
domestic violence. That's where I really found a passion for
helping the victims people. And even though her road took
(28:20):
different directions, law school was always kind of the second option,
and that's where she's at now. There's a lot of
power in a legal degree. I asked my good friend
pre Barrara, the former U S Attorney for the legendary
Southern District of New York, to join us on this journey.
(28:42):
Individuals have power generally, they have their voice, they can protest,
they can run for office. There's lots of things you
can do. But I think there has been an appreciation
as our democracy, in my view, has been under attack
from a lot of different places over the last number
of years. That's not a bad thing to have a
law degree and have the which of access to a
court to redress grievances and equalize the playing field for
(29:05):
people who don't have access to justice. Is that six o'clock? Yeah,
So let's everyone take a moment to reflect. As a St.
Mary's bells ring? How long do they go? The students
(29:30):
pack up and head for their cars. A J. Sits
down at an old picnic table with a couple of coaches,
deb Unich and Misty death Ridge, the two elves in
their presentations. Was there anyone there that like stood out
to you the very first one? It's hard to go first,
but she kind of knocked it out of the park.
(29:53):
It was very animated. Her speech was animated and had emotion.
It had tone and variants. It was good. It was
it was organized, It made sense. We have several that
need to We're gonna have to be have them sit
on their hands. We have a lot of hand movement.
Are you shocked at the deer in the headlights? Look
with about two thirds of them a little? I don't
(30:13):
remember that from last year. My concern is that is
is that a COVID thing? We're back in person meeting
people in person again. Is it a hold over from
having done everything last year on zoom and that type
of their first time live. This class, they've never been live.
It's a really good that's a really good observation. So
we should ease them in a little bit rather than
(30:35):
hitting them hard. I'll say about doing them hard tomorrow.
But no, you're gonna be easy on them. No, a
J doesn't do either, but maybe easy for a J.
(31:01):
To get the bigger picture of the mock trial scene,
I reached out to Joe Lester. When Joe is not
overseeing the trial ad program at American University, he runs
the go to website called Trial Team Central. Trial Team Central.
We keep track of all the law school trial competitions,
the results. We've kind of grown. It was first just
(31:23):
who won, and now it's you know who one and
who's playing. And we also talked with Joe's colleague, Adam
schlawhead from Fordam University. Adams created this ranking system to
measure the top mock trial programs across the country. Do
you get three points if you win a competition, two
(31:44):
points if you come in second, and one point if
you make the semifinals. So then I just started allocating
points and counting them up. So Adam and Joe. I'm
the new kid on the block, but I have had
the most amazing ride getting to know these coaches and
some of the competitors. So I have met some pretty
(32:06):
spectacular kids. They have reaffirmed my belief that the children
are going to save the world because they are so
smart and so self aware. And I would like to
thank having been a trial ad geek myself in law
school that being a part of these teams has been
(32:28):
a huge part of it. Yeah. You know, one of
the other critiques that we hear, especially from people who
aren't trialers, is that there are fewer and fewer trials
happening in the country. The journy trial is vanishing. So
why is this so important? And I kind of think
(32:50):
that because the jury trial is becoming more rare, that
makes it more important that the students get the training
in law school because the days of the young lawyer
trying a hundred cases before their thirty it doesn't happen, right,
It just does not happen, especially at big firms and
(33:15):
you know, high stakes litigation. I do uh some training
for law firms, and these are folks who have been
at the law firm for many many many, many years,
and they've never even been close to a trial. If
you ever watch a baseball game and you watch someone
throw the ball from third base to first base, most
people can't even throw a ball that far. It's it's
(33:35):
a long way, and they do it like it's no
big deal. And I think they think of trial work
in sort of the practice of law is something that's
just easy and no big deal. And that's where the
trial training that we give gives these students such a
leg up on their competition on their classmates, because it
(33:56):
is not something you can just walk in and do.
It is not monkey see monkey do. I can mimic
it and I can take care of it. It takes
a lot of training and understanding to know exactly what
you're doing and how to do it, or you'll never
be able to hit a gird ball. So they need
this kind of training because they don't have the luxury
of learning on the backs of their clients. Because at
(34:18):
the end of the day, trials are still happening, even
if it's to a lesser degree, they are still happening.
And that's the cloud looming over all litigation. And if
if you take away that ability, then you're really losing
a major tactical advantage. So you preface what it is
(34:38):
that you're trying to do your market You show it,
you asked to approach, they validate its existence. You publish.
That's kind of the gist of the way this works.
Now you all do have a document. Let's be frank, right,
AJ you you want to create a St. Mary's Law
and national team that's going to be competitively good, and
(35:02):
you talk about that pressure cooker of these students. They've
got their academic rigor and the academic demands. I think
it's really relevant because a lot of criticism about law
school has been what's the real world practical benefit of
going to law school? Like what are you learning in
the classroom versus maybe being on one of these trial teams.
(35:25):
This competitive to get on the team, I presume it's
competitive to stay on the team. It's very competitive to
get on the team. It's very competitive to stay on
the team. The pressure is high when you get on
the team, and a lot of people don't make it.
They withdraw on their own or they withdraw through after
a conversation. My number one goal is not to win championships.
(35:52):
It is not don't get me wrong, I really love winning.
I'm very competitive. If we were to break out a
checkerboard right now, I'm going to play and play and
play and play until I figure out how to beat you.
I like that You're already going in knowing that I'm
beating you at the beginning. There's there's no doubt about that.
(36:13):
But you will get angry at me because I will
make you keep going until I win, until I figure
out what you're doing. And I am not so I
want to impart that competitive spirit on my students, but
it is not not my goal. I grew up really
really poor, Katie. I mean really poor. I had parents
(36:36):
who left Cuba to come here to this country. They
left on a boat, on one of the freedom boats,
like many other Cubans that came to this country fleeing
a communist Cuba Fidel Castro rule, and they came here
with nothing close on their backs. You don't know it
by listening to me, because you don't hear me as
(36:56):
a Latino. Oh but I heard it right there, Latino.
I have seen that's how some people are treated versus
other people. And I've been poor as an adult, and
I've worked through it until I got to this stage
in my life where I'm not poor. I'm not rich,
but I'm not poor. What I know is this is
that there are a lot of people out there who
(37:17):
are not getting the representation that they need. And I
see day in and day out how people do not
represent people correctly. They asked dumb questions. They ask questions
that forward or advanced the theory of the case for
the other side rather than their side. I mean, I've
(37:41):
come from a town of about three thousand people. Um,
everything I've done in my life, people say, well, where
is that from. I had somebody tell me this week
that I sound like cornbread. Whatever they mean, I don't know.
I don't know if that's a good thing or a
bad thing, But I mean that's been my mentality my
whole life. My dad's not a lawyer or a doctor.
My dad a farmer. And the thing is for me,
(38:02):
I'm out to prove to the world that I can
do and I'm going to do it. Hi. My name
is Karen Fraser Craffer, and the first day was quite intimidating,
very intimidating. Has studied those things for weeks and it
seems like it just blanked out Hello and Maria hymis.
So the first day, I think we were all like
maybe texting each other, a bunch of us like what's
(38:22):
gonna happen, what's going on? And we didn't know what
to expect, honestly, And I remember telling some of our
friends I feel like throwing up, like I don't know,
like I'm so nervous. And we get here and it's
like kind of a relief once the first day is over,
because we're like, Okay, it's gonna be hard, but we
can do this a little over a thousand miles due north,
(38:47):
another trial team, the University of South Dakota, is lugging
their law books back to campus. Good morning, good morning,
I was doing this morning. We're doing a series of
quorn tonight. Open next emails are great way to communicate
(39:08):
when we're not going to be played. Uh, the knowledge
is not there front to the email at that shirts
MS Peter and if that I got, we do it.
Come on, Oh listen to dream how you doing start?
(39:35):
So these are the things that we're going to cover tonight,
things that you need to know about law school, mock trial.
We're gonna talk briefly through preliminary matters, which is the
first thing that you're going to say when you're doing
one of these competitions. We're gonna talk about the use
of evidence at the competition. What you need to know
and what the people on this side of the room
already now. In six weeks, we take a fact pattern
(39:58):
that would normally take two to three years to come
to aisle, and we take to trial and they're intense. Uh.
Some of our fact patterns were as long as two
hundred pages last year. Some of them were as short
as sixty five. The thing that you need to know
most of all, you guys are engaged in a highly
competitive law school sport. We have gotten to the point
through the work of the people who have been on
(40:18):
trial team before you, since I have been here, where
we are now regularly getting invited and accepted to top
tier competitions. We are regularly competing against top twenty advocacy schools.
I don't care that their top twenty advocacy schools. They
are not any better than any of you. They are
not any smarter than any of you. They don't have
any advantage over any of you, other than the fact
(40:38):
that they have a pre existing template. We're making all
of that here together because we're building our team together.
We're currently ranked number ninety in the country for trial advocacy.
That means we are in the top half already. Our
goal is to increase that ranking. How do we do
that by showing up and showing out at competitions. Right now,
we're taking over with ethical zealous trial advocacy, and we're
(41:02):
showing them that it doesn't matter what part of the
country that you're from or how much money you've spent
on all of your equipment. We're coming for you and
it's not gonna be fun for you when that happens.
When you walk into that zoom room when you log in.
I don't care if you're going against Baylor. I don't
care if you're going against Temple. I don't care what
school it is that you're competing against. It's four other
(41:24):
law students. You have every potential to beat them, just
as much as they have the potential to beat you.
It's just a question of who's going to do the
work at the end of the day, guys, that's really
all there is to it. So I come to you
at the end of my one l year. I I
hear the siren song of working with coach Laura Rose
being on this amazing team. Walk me through what I
(41:46):
should expect as that first semester too, well, in those
beginning days of that semester with you, what's that gonna
look like for me? The first thing that's gonna happen
is you're gonna be absolutely terrified because we're gonna sit
you down at boot camp and we're gonna tell you
just how this goes. And in the course of that,
you're going to have this moment of oh my gosh,
can I actually do this? And law school on top
of it, it's like drinking water through a fire hose
(42:08):
on extra pressure. When you join trial team on top
of law school, we already know that that law school
is drinking through a fire hose. Now let's take it
up to eleven by adding trial team on top of it.
So you're going to get a faster and more intense
evidence education than what's going on. Questions about cross right now, Yes,
it's something that I learned in trial tech. I think
it's important to focus on the negative space that's there
(42:28):
about what they didn't do versus what they did wrong,
and that's going to be particularly important when we talk
about this this fake environment of the trial team competition, right,
because you're going up against other law students, so they're
going to be trying to play chess against you the
entire time that you're ready to go. Your job is
to be more flutent in their witness than they are
(42:48):
and then to not let them get away with anything.
So everybody likes to say that I'm a little carbon
copy of Dad, with just enough of my mother thrown
in to be interesting. My father's Charles Harrish as the
third He ran sets in University College of Laws Advocacy
program for fourteen years. During that time when he was
in charge, they were always number one, number one in
the nation for trial ad He is a giant of
a personality and a titan within the industry and one
(43:11):
of the people who now all of us who are
currently in the job of coaching and teaching rely upon
for his wisdom and what he did. But there is
no understating the impact that he had on the profession
in particular. But he also casts a giant shadow. Listening
to what they say is absolutely everything and cross examination
(43:32):
you have to be engaged and in the moment. If
you're not paying attention number one, they may give you
a non verbal answer or you need to go back
that's a yes, that's a no, because otherwise it's not
on the record. And then, as you all know, one
of the key jobs of the trial attorneys to protect
the appellate record. You have to make sure that it's
on there, because otherwise you're you're robbing yourself of the argument. Technically,
(43:54):
you're not permitted to argue any of that in your
closing argument because it's not on the record, right, But
listening to what they say provides fertile ground for further
cross examination and further ground for embarrassment for them on
those key facts. Toss out something that we haven't talked
about yet about cross examination. This is the part where
the student interacts with the instructor blah blah blah blah blah.
(44:19):
You know, speak frankly with me, Laura, Are you trying
to build something that's going to exceed that legacy? Are
you trying to outshine it? Are you trying to match it? Like?
Does that create any metrics for you internally for how
you're trying to build and continue to grow and enhance
the program you have at South Dakota. I'm going to
(44:39):
say no. And and here's why I'm going to say no.
I take inspiration from everything that my father has ever done.
We have had a friendly competition going my entire life.
When I took the S A T, I had to
brag to him that I got a better S A
T score than he did. When I took the outside,
I had to do the same thing. Like it's that
kind of way that he's dirtured my own inherent competitive
spirit to allow me to kind of grow into my
own per And now I'm at the point where could
(45:01):
I try and build what Dad built. Sure, good advocacy
is about looking at the facts of your case, looking
at the law, and coming up with a story that
embraces a legal theme, of factual theme, and a moral
theme that calls to justice and uses our trial system
for what it's for, which is speaking truth to power.
That's what I want to build. I want to come
back to this is so important to American democracy that
(45:25):
everywhere should have this level of education and everywhere should
get this level of exposure. And we have one lawyer
for every citizens in our state. So we are a
small bar which means that my students when they graduate
and they go out to practice, they need to be
able to do a little bit of everything. They need
to be a true main street lawyer in the way
that the rest of the country maybe doesn't necessarily have.
(45:47):
The South Dakotan walking down the street who gets busted
for a d u I or a disorderly conduct deserves
somebody who can go in and advocate at the same
level as somebody who's in New York, or who's in California,
or who's anywhere. We need to start recognizing that there
are things in the middle of the country that are
incredibly valuable. There might be that time when some good
(46:08):
Midwestern common sense approach to something is going to actually
do you a lot of favors. So with that, why
don't we go ahead and start wrapping things up for tonight.
I expect to see you all back here bright and
early tomorrow morning. Not only experts people, can I talk
to you at front real QUI. Other than that y'all
are good. You don't please say pizza with you. Whatever
tournament you guys are doing, it's called buffalo. So that's
(46:34):
not all the experts law is about. Rules. I believe
in rules, but more important than rules, it is something
that is based on principles and values, and those are
values of equal justice and fairness of process, and everything
(46:58):
about that is found stating to me. And I love
the idea that it's also about truth, truth finding and
all the mechanisms that you use not only to get
justice and fairness for people, but so the ultimate truth
comes out. And I've always thought of it as a
noble pursuit. I tell the young wars it's a fabulous calling,
(47:20):
but you have to regard it as your calling. Tony
Sarah is a self described radical lawyer. He even took
a vow of poverty in the nineteen sixties. He's represented
clients such as the Black Panthers and the Hell's Angels
at though he is still practicing law and continues to
send fear and loathing into the hearts of judges across
(47:43):
the country. It's a fabulous mission that you're going to
embark on, but you have to regard it as a mission.
If you regard it as a job and that you're
going to sure the interest mostly of corporations, then you're
feeding into the status quo. But it's not really you
(48:07):
is that really where you went to law school? Is
that what you really want to do? Where do you
want to improve our social and political securities? Okay, I'm
(48:40):
gotta started. We're getting started. How's everybody done? I want
to do two things real quick before we really get started.
The first is that you know, while we're in law school,
something's happened. It's just part of life, yeah, and we
(49:01):
all need each other to get through these hard times.
Christian Ramon's father died. It was not expected, which is
why he's not here right now. He's still going to
try to be here tomorrow. They're burying his father today.
So if you know him, and if you don't know him,
(49:23):
maybe we can get a card, a note, a reach
out to him to let him know that he's not alone,
that other people are thinking of him in his time
of need. And if it's within you something that you do,
maybe say a prayer for him and his family. And
(49:43):
there's no doubt that these kind of events are going
to happen to more of us. My mother passed away
this year, just a few months ago, you know, and
people rallied around me, and we've had things that happened.
We've had babies that were born, and we rallied around
each other for babies, the good stuff and the bad stuff.
(50:05):
As we start to get to know each other better
and better, it will become easier and easier to rally around.
Sometimes things happened before we've had that jelling effect. Okay,
so who did not see the video on cross examination?
Now there's no direct that it happened. Yet, why are
(50:25):
we going directly to a cross? We're gonna work on directs.
Directs are harder, crosses are easier. Why our cross is easier?
Someone that watched the video? Tell me why crosses are easier?
Because you're so so only beginning yes or no? Andrews
hopefully yes? Than you're telling the story. Yeah, what do
I call that yes train? Right? Too? Right? That's the
(50:49):
money train? Right, you get someone to say yes, that's
the money train. That's what you want. You want to
run away witness so you can slap them around and
get them on your yes train. How do we control
the witness? The question you're asking and what kind of
questions are we asking? And the leading question is what
(51:13):
is question? One fact? Single fact questions? What is the
one thing that I want to make sure that I
get out of every witness that I cross examle every
witness story, which story? First story? My story? Which is
(51:34):
my which is my theory of the case? How do
I get the theory of my case through that witness?
Bring your chairs, leave your notes, leave your pens, just yourselves.
You can bring water. So I want my first share here. Now,
(52:00):
this is your first time through, and we expect you're
gonna make more mistakes than normal. It's okay. This is
where you're allowed to make mistakes. This is our first
step in cross examinations. They're going to make mistakes. We
don't start yelling until the second time. Right the first time,
(52:20):
It's easy, all stars and top load. I want to
take you back to when you're interviewing Bobby see here
from North Carolina? Where in North Carolina? Eastern North Carolina? Like?
What city? And what's what's in snow hill? There's nothing there? Farms? Farmer,
(52:43):
are you on a farm right now? Where are you? Like?
What are we mimicking here? Trial? And a trial is
in what kind of room? Is is that on a farm?
You're not on a farm. You've got to get serious
right now. You're a little mad at me, aren't you. Yeah,
I'm glad. That's what I was trying to get from you. Okay,
(53:05):
I want you to be a little mad at me.
I want you not on the farm right now. I
love country. There's a place for country right now. We're
not ready for you to be country. I need you
to be in a courtroom. So get mad at me.
Get in the courtroom, get your head right, ask him
those questions, Officer san Toppola. I want to take you
(53:26):
back when you're an interview of Bobby. See Bobby c
got an alert that his credit card would being used. Yeah,
that's right at the zoo trip. Yes, it was. So
your country is an advantage, right, It's a true advantage
(53:46):
that you have. What were people like me? People love
hearing your voice. My voice is common yours isn't right,
but you gotta just it can't be I'm on the farm.
We gotta find that balance where I get to be me.
But I don't want you to think like I'm on
the farm. I earned my right to be here, all right, cool,
(54:11):
thank you? Alright, Well, he made fun of my accent, which, uh,
which is funny now, but I felt like it was
kind of a low blow at the time. Honestly, if
he would have told me my cross examination was terrible,
I would have been like, Okay, let me work on it.
But yeah, he told me that, and it piss me
off a little bit. I'm not gonna lie, actually a lot,
(54:31):
but I mean it's true. He was like, yeah, I
know you got a chip on your shoulder. Um, I
can see it in your eyes. And that's true. And
most of the time in my life, when I get
piste off, when I get angry, I weren't harder. And
that's why he was trying to bring out of me.
And I respect him more. Now I want you to
write five questions cross examining, leading questions. This is your
(54:56):
first boyer into a fact powdern don't go deep into
the weeds. One fact, five questions you have until every year,
a j writes up a simple case packet for the
students to argue. With this case in hand, they prepare
(55:19):
for a short trial where they will have to do
some of the most basic things a trial lawyer must
know how to do. Introduce evidence into the record, impeach
a witness, refresh their memory, and cross examine them. And
that witness well, it'll be played to the Hilt by
A J. So the story is about Bobby CE and
(55:44):
Veronica J. And it's a real story to a certain point,
and then there's parts of it that aren't true. I
used it back when I was at Maryland, and then
I adopted it to hear so that it incorporates local
town lore, including a bar that I love called Barbara.
So Bobby CE and Veronica J. Were at a party.
(56:04):
Veronica wanted to leave the party. She crossed over Martin
Luther King Boulevard near Camden Pub on Baltimore Street in
Baltimore City. Two men acrost them with a gun, demands
um their property. Veronica gives their phone and their purse.
Bobby gives his wallet. The robbers did not take Bobby's
(56:25):
phone because he had an analog phone. The robbers laughed
at him and they ran off, And Bobby CE and
Veronica J. We're so frightened by it that they never
saw anyone that they couldn't tell you the person was
a man or a woman or white, black, Hispanic Asian.
(56:46):
They couldn't tell you anything about him. They were afraid.
They were frozen in time. Two police officer to show up.
Bobby gets a phone call from the bank says, your
credit cards being used at a gas station. Police put
him in the back of the car. They go to
the gas station. Veronica yells, that's them, that's people that
robbed me. Bobbys says, I don't know. I was too afraid.
I don't know if it's them or it's not. Police
(57:07):
officers go out talk to the guys and they were
both arrested for the robbery. Maybe those of you that
were having a little bit of a hard time will
agree with rushing or skipping makes it hard. I make
a mistake, So that's why you have to learn this
(57:28):
like the back of your hand, all right. I asked
Dennisis to do her five question cross in front of
all of you. There's a lesson here that we're going
to learn. So there's an error and a recovery. I
want you to hear the error so that you can
(57:51):
learn from it, not do it to yourselves. I'll explain
it when it happens. We're good, John, you were called
about a robbery. I was, yes, it involved two bigger
that's correct. It did not mention the number of roberts, correct.
(58:11):
It did not mention the gender of the robberts. That's correct.
You arrested two men at a gas station. Yes, it
was two men. So you arrested two men without having
any underlying fact of the gender of the robbers. So,
I mean, we had other evidence to suggest that the
(58:32):
robbers were male, um, particularly the call um. Obviously he
was able to identify eventually that the two men. Good
got you got back what you wanted, right, all right?
First I put her on a spot. So thank you, Jennis,
just for doing that. Right. What was the question that
you shouldn't have asked? He arrested two men without any description.
(58:55):
So the question again, jennesss, So you arrested two men
without having any underlying facts of the gender of the robbers.
Now that sounds like a yes or no question, doesn't
It doesn't. That's a yes or no question. But it's not.
It's not a yes or no question. Say it again.
(59:16):
So you arrested two men without any underlying fact, without
any underlying facts. What does that give the witness that
takes that yes no question and creates it into an
opportunity for a narrative. It's the one question too many.
(59:42):
It's trying to get the witness to make the argument
for you. When do we argue? When do we argue clothes?
We arguing clothes? Is the witness gonna argue for me? Now,
the witness is never on my side on a US examination,
I'm not going to help me. So this is genesis.
(01:00:05):
I told him I grew up in a Mexican household
and there was no sugarcoating. Ever. It was always very direct,
you know. I would come out of my mom would
say that shirt looks ugly. Go change. It was very
that's wrong, fix it so here with a J. I
really like that teaching style. That's how I grew up.
I kind of feel home. It doesn't hurt my feelings.
So if you do it wrong, it's gonna be an
(01:00:27):
improper impeachment. Someone's gonna exect because you do it wrong.
Now you got to go back and do it again.
Now the judge is getting piste off of you, the
jury is getting piste off of you. So that's how
we're trying to be perfect right so that you don't
have to do it again, so you don't get objected
to on an improper or an imperfect impeachment showing up
the council you have I always stand. I stand when
(01:00:51):
I crossed the jam, and I stand when I addressed
the court. I definitely stand when I addressed the jury.
Your mind has to be show fast, so acute, so much.
We call that you develop what you're gonna say right then.
It's a spontaneity that creates the value. My god, I've
(01:01:12):
seen lawyers read their cross examination. I've seen lawyers read
their close saved without passion. That's not the way to
do a young lawyer's you know, stand up, be vociferous,
be independent, be spontaneous, be creative, fight, be in their face.
(01:01:36):
But you should know your path, the way that you're
going to go. The two three things that I want
from this witness, you should know what those are. You're
all going to court tomorrow. How ready are you going
to be? You cannot pass this class if you do
not enter a piece of evidence, impeach the witness, and
(01:02:00):
refresh their memory. Those are the three things that you
have to do. That's it. I want to hear your thinking,
your thoughts, how you want to do it, how you
put your case together. It has to be logical. You're
gonna have your documents so that you can get to them.
You can easily locate that document, so that you have
(01:02:21):
a copy for you, a copy for the judge, a
copy for the witness. You might have a spare copy
in case coffee gets spilled on one by accident. And
it's curious to see whether or not you are prepared
for court, so you should be ready for trial. For
the students, tonight will be a long one spent pressing
(01:02:42):
their suits and rehearsing in front of the mirror for
tomorrow it's judgment tank. I take it. You know what
a rabbit hole looks like? Yes, you can never get out.
And what's in the bottom of there? Nothing right, rabbit's living,
the rabbit hole and the poop. When you're going down
(01:03:03):
to the rabbit hole and you're going down to a
barrel of boop, that's next time on Class Action. Class
Action is a production of I Heart Radio and Sound Argument, created, produced, written,
and edited by Kevin Huffman and Lisa Gray. Executive producers
(01:03:24):
are Taylor Chacogne and Katrina Norvelle. Sound design, editing and
mixing by Evan Tire and Taylor Chacogne. This episode had
additional field production by Kristen Cabrera, Paul Ebson, Alfredo de
la Garza and Malia Lukomski. Additional story production by Jennifer Swan,
(01:03:45):
Kristin Cabrera, Jason Foster, and Wendy Nardi. For more podcasts
from I heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you get your favorite shows.
Class Action is a production of my heart radio and
sound argument. Kill kill kill, blood makes the grass grow,
kill kill killoo makes the grass GRASSOULA. Well, I just
(00:27):
want to tell the team that you know, we're new
to this, but we're true to this because you went
through the competition and if you weren't any good at all,
you wouldn't be here. We may not be the best,
but we were good enough to get on this team,
so let's do what we gotta do. The whole goal
after this is when you go into the courtroom, there's
somebody depending on you to advocate for them, so let's
(00:49):
learn it now because their life could be on their line,
their finances could be on their line, their family could
be on the line. This is fun, this is great,
but we have to look up for our clients who
we don't even know who there are, but they're waiting
for us. They're waiting words. Our first team with six
(01:09):
lands with a CS at sixteen and a half. Opedia
plus thirty nine tells sixteen you're listening to the sounds
of the next generation of American lawyers. This is Class Action,
(01:34):
a year long journey inside the hyper competitive world of
law school, mock trial We found three schools with amazing
stories to tell, starting with St. Mary's University in San Antonio,
where we follow one team on their dramatic trip to
the top. We got beat up, bad, bad, until the
(01:57):
point where like we're like, oh, it can't get any worse,
until it did, and then it did again, and then
we're just like, you know what, let's do this, like
we know what we need to fix. We got this, like,
let's believe in ourselves. And it's been good. The University
of South Dakota, where a new coach is turning around
a program with students who are guilty of being too
(02:19):
nice in the courtroom, the reports of this fighter that
there was blood everywhere, right, that everybody was bleeding. Why
isn't there blood in the front passenger seat, Why isn't
the victims blood other places in the car? And from
deep in the heart of Brooklyn and all female team
from Brooklyn Law fights, the Ivy League champions, just how
(02:43):
we got them that so many stay and we just
all like tackled her to the ground and we're crying
and screaming and so happy. And to get an idea
of the future of mock trial, we meet students from
the undergraduate pre law program at Dillard University. It's a
team that's been forced to come together after Hurricane Ida
(03:07):
lays waste to their campus. This sport will humble you
so quick in the best way possible. It will really
like let you know you need to buckle down and
do what you have to do. It will really show
you like your potential, and it will also show you
the places that you lag. I'm Katie Fang. This is
class action. Some people say jury trials they're going away,
(03:44):
and there's plenty of evidence to support that. Personally, I
think it's more than a shame. I think it's a crisis,
a crisis for our democracy because if you've ever had
to go to trial and you've had a lousy trial lawyer,
it's a real crisis for you. But there may be
hope on the horizon. Ever since I was kid, I
(04:04):
wanted to be a lawyer. Just always wanted to do that,
and it was kind of like law or nothing. I'm
sure it could be good at something else, but I
just this is my heart. I would say what appeals
to me is the overarching justice system and the fact
that everyone is innocent until proven guilty, but in society.
That is not the case in society. Is if you
(04:27):
see a news report that so and so was involved
in a robbery, they did it. They did the robbery,
and I think that's unfair. Okay, here's one paragraph I
can read. That same day, I signed up for something
called mock trial, thinking I would learn a few things
about speaking effectively. I began sitting in the backup practices
and watching the student lawyers argue their cases. My coaches
(04:50):
didn't let that fly for too long. They insisted I
lead strategy discussions and present every side of the case
until I knew the facts of the story like it
were my own. I have brown skin, I am Indian.
I am not well represented in a courtroom setting. Typically,
I'm not who you see on a courtroom drama. For example,
(05:12):
the other day I was talking to my friend and
I was like, yeah, you know, I did this moot
court thing, and he said, oh, like in those courtroom dramas, like,
do you watch them for inspiration? And I honestly was.
I said no, because those people don't look like me.
They don't have my style. They're white males generally, and
for the most part, like I'm building this myself. Whatever
(05:32):
comes out um in a courtroom is because I built
that persona Every occupation is important in its own way,
but I feel like in this type, especially criminal law,
you're with somebody at the worst time of their life.
Every inch of my body felt uncomfortable, to the point
where I felt like quitting. But something about the sport
(05:54):
made me keep coming back. I trained my mind in
my tongue so substantially that the courtroom became the place
where I felt the most comfortable. I learned that being
a litigator isn't about the objections you make or how
smart you sound. It's about your body language, the way
your voice bends, and the words you use. Most importantly,
it's about the way you connect with people and the
truth you're able to uncover. It's about the stories you tell.
(06:19):
This is episode one boot Camp for Lawyers. You're all
(06:40):
ready for me Interestacing City a j don't stand up,
(07:01):
stand up, stand up, stand up, pound on the table,
cut it down the table, Oh my god, oh yeah, who.
I'm the dean of advocacy, so, believe it or not,
we already did some advocacy here today. None of you
(07:21):
wanted to stand up on world would and pound on
the table, But I got you to do that. That,
to me is the world of advocacy, getting people to
do something that they don't want to do on their own.
For me, it's in the courtroom. I want the judge
to do what I want the judge to do. I
(07:43):
want the jury to do what I want the jury
to do. And I need to train you to do
what I do. That's my world. Close your eyes for
a second. Last night, you thought about your first day
in law school. There was a picture in your head.
How many of you imagined yourself in front of a
(08:06):
jury or a judge making an argument. It's okay to dream,
and here we're gonna help you fulfill that dream, for
each and every one of you that want it. Some
of you are here because something happened in your life.
Some of you have been wronged or a family member
(08:29):
has been wronged. Some of you have been victims, and
that's why you're here, because you want to make a difference.
It's just a small number of people that can control
our liberty to make sure that it is maintained. You
have a unique responsibility. We're doing really important stuff here
(08:55):
and I need you to keep going. The National Trial Team.
M we practice going to trial as a member of
the National Trial Team. Before you graduate, you will have
no less than seventy trials under your belt, practicing in
front of judges and law practitioners. I invite you to
(09:18):
be a member of the National Trial Your success depends
on each other. Put your arm around each other, take
care of each other, and good luck and muscle and
(09:43):
coming one else did breakfast? I was gonna say, you
get some breakfast tacos. St. Mary's University sits on a
flat piece of land in the west side of San Antonio.
So give you a lay of the land. Here. Rabba
is the original law school. Now it's just offices. St.
(10:06):
Mary's is the first Catholic university in Texas, founded by
the brothers of the Society of Mary in eighteen fifty two.
That's the law school library. That's the administration building. This
is the main classroom building, just seven years after Texas
became a state. So you have the rest of the university.
But we're right here in our own little corner. When
(10:28):
you take a look around, what's gonna set us apart
when you go to these other schools. Our student population
has a huge Hispanic Latino population. We're probably going to
be the largest populated school for Latino law students, which
is really important to us that we we had that
(10:48):
opportunity that other schools don't happen. It's fantastic, Lamosambisa Pole.
It hasn't meet that then, than thank you, mamma, But
(11:09):
I did my I just liked. So. Our school has
an oath that every student takes when they first come in.
You you take a bunch of oaths as a lawyer,
so we figured we might as well let's start one here.
(11:40):
The things that the students are pledging to honesty, morality, integrity, trustworthiness, honor.
These are the things that I expect and we demand
from all of our students. But we want them to
make that commitment from their first day on campus and
(12:00):
saying this pledge does just that. Diligent always. So I'm
looking at that pledge. I have it on a bulletin
board above my desk. I, Patricia Roberts, do solemnly pledge
that I will engage in the diligent study of law,
(12:21):
always acting in an honest, moral and professional manner. I
will be guided by the spirit of hospitality, collaboration, mutual support,
and scholarship, which are the ideals of a Marriness university.
And I will be trustworthy, honorable, and professional in all
aspects of my life. Trustworthy all. So do you go
(12:57):
by a J Belido de lu? Are you just a
J Belido? Like? What's no? No, never believe o never
de luna never Luna never day believe it or not.
Some people use that the last name is Beth Luna.
It's a double l. So you had the right accent. No,
(13:23):
and in California, Okay. As soon as I heard about
this particular podcast, I log geeked out. Trial ad was
a big part of my law school experience. It was
instrumental in leading me to not go to big law
(13:45):
and to go to the grind of big law and
I went to be a prosecutor. I attribute that love
and that passion for trial and advocacy like true trial
advocacy because of the mock trials and the litigation skills program.
So so yes, so you and I are like minded
when it comes to this. There is this old saying
(14:06):
I'm gonna butcher it, but I do like to live
by this kind of old adage. It was a Judy
Garland quote about you know, the best thing is to
basically be yourself. That being said, though, if you could
build the perfect trial team students trial team student member,
what would that trial team member be? I never thought
(14:29):
about that, to be honest, And I think the reason
why I've never thought about that is because I truly
believe that I am not trying to make somebody into something.
More So, what I want is I want to meet
(14:50):
the students where they are and to help build their
skills and their abilities so that they can be the
best lawyer they can possibly be. Earning a coveted spot
(15:16):
on the trial team at St. Mary's is not automatic. Hey,
three else, come here, three Else. Tryouts are held in
the spring for second and third year law students only,
and just to get this out of the way, second
year law students they're called two Ells. Third year students
they're known as three l's. Okay, remember how nervous you
(15:36):
guys were. This is like their passage into here. We're
here to help them, do not give them advanced lessons.
There are two people here that are here on a
look see the first one. In early August, the two
L's and roll in a trial advocacy class top by
a j and after five o'clock they braved the heat
(15:59):
for an intensive one week boot camp where they're going
to be drilled on everything from how to stand, where
to stand, how to talk, when to shut up, and
all of the bedrock procedures operating inside of a courtroom. Hey, hey,
(16:20):
what are you doing here? I'm healthy? Oh good team player?
Look at you? Always a team player. I grew up
playing team I got in trouble for stalking too long
and told me to shut up. Happy you think we
get today? Emily Parker is one of a handful of
(16:41):
three l's who are earning extra credit for coaching at
the boot camp. Our boot camp which is basically a
crash course on evidence, on the trial procedure, cross examinations,
and just getting comfortable with learning at a fast pace,
but also just the very basic rules for how a
trial operates and what what you need to know and
(17:03):
the nuts and bolts. So then when they start their
Trial Advocacy Skills class in the fall, they'll be they'll
be ready to go. Hey, welcome to the first day.
Here's what I want you to do. Unless you're Andy,
Emily or Jess, I'll want you to go down there
(17:24):
I'm gonna go address them, and I want you to
work with them. And as soon as you believe somebody
is ready for the test, they could come up to
me or dead. We're gonna be at the top of
the steps, they'll be at the bottom of the steps.
They'll recite, they'll be allowed in. If they don't pass,
we're gonna send them back. You guys need to grab
(17:45):
them and work with them, have them recited for you again.
All right, let's go address them and get them to work.
My name is Abby. I don't want to speak for
anyone else, but when he said boot Campbell, I was imagining,
I mean in the Texas weather, like out in the
gass doing laps and like yelling the rules of evidence,
(18:05):
so anything, it was like better than that, Hi, Hi
might lencinas. I was a bit intimidated, um, but definitely
just from you know, tryouts, there was still that level
of you know, scariness, not really knowing you know, what
his personality was, how he was going to approach this
whole thing. A couple of minutes. It's good to work.
(18:26):
It's Jared's birthday. To day, Oh my god, Jared's birthday.
Howld are you these twenty three. Happy birthday, that's awesome.
Did you bring cake? I didn't know. I was hoping
you would. I believe that you have to bring cake
(18:47):
when hit your birthday, chocolate with chocolate frosting. To the rules.
All right, get to work. SONA medslaren a dec lauren
is a person who makes a statement and here's say.
Um is a statement that the declarent makes while not
testifying in the current trial or hearing um, and the
party offers it into evidence for the truth of the matter.
(19:08):
Asserted the rule number four hearsay, Yes, what's the real number?
Eight one? It's the real number p four oh one.
I'm sorry, that's right, that's fine, that you're fine through it. So,
in order to make phase two of the team, they
had to memorize I don't know, like twelve rules of evidence.
(19:29):
They were given two hours to write down these rules
word for word. They were graded. You have to get
or better on the test in order to stay on
the team. So they've already memorized them for writing. Well,
now they have to come in and give it to
me verbally. What is the definition of relevance? Evidence is
(19:50):
relevant if a has any tendency to make a fact
more or less probable than it would be without the evidence,
and be the fact type of consequence and determined to actions.
I love it. What is the definition of here saying?
Here saying is a statement other than one made by
the declarant while testifying at the trial or hearing offered
an evidence to prove the truth of the matter? Is
(20:10):
sort of okay, good job. What is the definition of
relevance evidence as relevant if it has any Why? For
those people that are listening and wondering and scratching their head.
There's dozens of rules of evidence in the Federal Rules
of Evidence, that's right. Why those specifically? And if I'm
(20:33):
able to recite it back to you? Why is that
some type of threshold success for me to be able
to get my foot on the door to even be
considered to be on the St. Mary's team. It's a
little bit of effort to memorize that. So they're looking
up at you and they have to recite these two
rules to walk past me, to come up the stairs
(20:55):
and walk past me. So there's an elevation that happens. Right,
there's a feeling inside. It's part psychological, it's there's a
whole lot of reasons for it, but it's all part
of that process of if you don't care, if you're
not willing to do just this little bit, I don't
(21:15):
have time for you. Okay, stay your name for the record.
It's cool, do alright, Cole. What is the definition of hearsay? Hearsay?
Hear say a statement other than one made by the
declaring while testifying at the trial hearing offered nevidence for
the truth for the matter of serv This is my
first year on the trial team. I did mootcourt prior
(21:37):
to this, So this kind of activity it's very difficult
to just really jump into because you've got to know
a lot of basic tenants of law that we've kind
of only just touched on. Three years ago. I was
in your English class and um, I gotta be um.
I was involved in a car accident today. Is my
English class be relevant? It is not. Why not, because
(22:01):
it has no bearing on the practic hand or the action,
which is a car exact Welcome to boardicle. Okay, find
a second person. It looks like Jasmine is available. Say
your name for the record. My name is Karen Crawford.
All right, Miss Crawford. You and I are walking down
the street. We just had a cup of coffee. All
of a sudden we hear crash and someone yells out,
(22:23):
holy cow, that guy went through a red light. Is
that here saying the person who said it, no, because
he saw it with the di Is it an out
of court statement? It's out of court. Is it being
offered for the truth? Not that moment? Go back, go back,
go back. Oh my god, that okay, Karen, let's do it.
(22:47):
So many trips up? Yeah? How did they do? As
you go through this process, I really want you to
think about it this way. The rules of evidence are
not to keep evidence out. The rules of evidence are
to guide you on how you bring evidence in. It
(23:10):
tells you how to get it in. If you look
at it that way, it becomes a lot easier than
it's this barrier. It's not a barrier. It's a welcoming
that we're gonna have a really, really busy week. We're
gonna be out here for most of it. I brought
a cooler, Andy brought the ice. Drink often drink a lot,
(23:31):
stay hydrated. We should hit a hunter and two tomorrow.
Offered in evidence to prove the truth of the matter
of certain is the statement made out of court. Yes,
the statement is made out of courts on the street.
So then that statement is because it is being offered
to prove the truth of the matter started. So therefore
it is saying thank you. Come on in? Is that everybody?
(23:56):
That man? Awesome? All right? Come on, everybody, let's get
to work. Y'all made it. That was really easy? When't it?
When not easy? Give yourselves a block. Come on. Now
you know the definitions. Now you need to learn how
(24:16):
to use them. Our first assignment is to get to
know each other. Team up with somebody. No one's gonna
ask a single question. When I say ones, go for
three minutes without stopping. I need you to tell a
story about yourself to the other person. The person may
(24:39):
not ask you a single question. You will just tell
the story about you. I hope to god you came
here with a piece of paper and a pencil, because
while the other person is talking, you're taking notes, and
you may not stop talking until I say stop. Let's
(25:01):
get this table combined with this table, and that table
combined with that table. You need to throw over here.
Today I'm going to tell you a story about how
my house burned down. True story from when I was seven.
One night I went to sleep. It was a Sunday night.
We didn't have school the next day, so my older
(25:21):
brother was awake and he awoke to a bank glass
crashing everywhere. I used to teach at Maryland. I used
to do this when I was a Maryland and I
know that at Maryland, I would teach something one time
and I was done with it. It was over. I
didn't have to do it again. That's not where I am.
And I learned in addition to that, like whatever we
(25:42):
say could really get us in jail, Like it didn't
matter what we were saying. I mean, I'm not knocking
my kids. I'm just saying that they need a different teacher.
They need me to be a different teacher. Thirty seconds later,
run way back, so I try to take off. I'm
not getting kids that even know what trial advocacy is,
(26:04):
or some of them may have had an experience in
high school, but they weren't on a national champion high
school team. Okay, stop talking, stop laughing, not just kidding,
leave everything behind. Just bring your chair and put him
in this box. So when you come up here, I
(26:29):
want you to say your name and the person you're
introducing and tell us about that person. I'll take volunteers.
So yeah, I love that. Let's get it over with
who you are, who you're introducing, tell us your story.
Can someone take notes? Take notes and these stories? So Hi,
(26:52):
my name is Maria Ansinas and this was my partner,
Raven Benya, and she told me the story of why
law school, which I'm sure all of us have been
asked before. So she went ahead and started off with
how she was concerned for people. She had a concern
in her heart for people specifically. I just moved here
(27:12):
for law school, so it was a little rough my
first year. I won't lie moving. I've never lived away
from home, away from family, so I have no lawyers
in the family. Um, but I was a legal secretary
and a paralegal prior to coming to law school. Law
school was always the plan, just kind of took a
little while to get in there. So she went ahead
and started to do a lot of activist work. She
(27:36):
became an activist, but she quickly learned that the FBI
would get involved in a lot of things, and she
learned the whole culture of security and how any little
thing that she said or her friends said ultimately was
tracked and ultimately could lead to a lot of I
didn't want to be the behind the scenes person. Everything
(27:58):
that staff does is so important, but I wanted to
be the advocate in the courtroom. And I was just
through watching those other advocates that I was just like, Yep,
that's that's what I need to do. My specific interest
is in Special Victims Unit, sex crimes, crimes against children,
domestic violence. That's where I really found a passion for
helping the victims people. And even though her road took
(28:20):
different directions, law school was always kind of the second option,
and that's where she's at now. There's a lot of
power in a legal degree. I asked my good friend
pre Barrara, the former U S Attorney for the legendary
Southern District of New York, to join us on this journey.
(28:42):
Individuals have power generally, they have their voice, they can protest,
they can run for office. There's lots of things you
can do. But I think there has been an appreciation
as our democracy, in my view, has been under attack
from a lot of different places over the last number
of years. That's not a bad thing to have a
law degree and have the which of access to a
court to redress grievances and equalize the playing field for
(29:05):
people who don't have access to justice. Is that six o'clock? Yeah,
So let's everyone take a moment to reflect. As a St.
Mary's bells ring? How long do they go? The students
(29:30):
pack up and head for their cars. A J. Sits
down at an old picnic table with a couple of coaches,
deb Unich and Misty death Ridge, the two elves in
their presentations. Was there anyone there that like stood out
to you the very first one? It's hard to go first,
but she kind of knocked it out of the park.
(29:53):
It was very animated. Her speech was animated and had emotion.
It had tone and variants. It was good. It was
it was organized, It made sense. We have several that
need to We're gonna have to be have them sit
on their hands. We have a lot of hand movement.
Are you shocked at the deer in the headlights? Look
with about two thirds of them a little? I don't
(30:13):
remember that from last year. My concern is that is
is that a COVID thing? We're back in person meeting
people in person again. Is it a hold over from
having done everything last year on zoom and that type
of their first time live. This class, they've never been live.
It's a really good that's a really good observation. So
we should ease them in a little bit rather than
(30:35):
hitting them hard. I'll say about doing them hard tomorrow.
But no, you're gonna be easy on them. No, a
J doesn't do either, but maybe easy for a J.
(31:01):
To get the bigger picture of the mock trial scene,
I reached out to Joe Lester. When Joe is not
overseeing the trial ad program at American University, he runs
the go to website called Trial Team Central. Trial Team Central.
We keep track of all the law school trial competitions,
the results. We've kind of grown. It was first just
(31:23):
who won, and now it's you know who one and
who's playing. And we also talked with Joe's colleague, Adam
schlawhead from Fordam University. Adams created this ranking system to
measure the top mock trial programs across the country. Do
you get three points if you win a competition, two
(31:44):
points if you come in second, and one point if
you make the semifinals. So then I just started allocating
points and counting them up. So Adam and Joe. I'm
the new kid on the block, but I have had
the most amazing ride getting to know these coaches and
some of the competitors. So I have met some pretty
(32:06):
spectacular kids. They have reaffirmed my belief that the children
are going to save the world because they are so
smart and so self aware. And I would like to
thank having been a trial ad geek myself in law
school that being a part of these teams has been
(32:28):
a huge part of it. Yeah. You know, one of
the other critiques that we hear, especially from people who
aren't trialers, is that there are fewer and fewer trials
happening in the country. The journy trial is vanishing. So
why is this so important? And I kind of think
(32:50):
that because the jury trial is becoming more rare, that
makes it more important that the students get the training
in law school because the days of the young lawyer
trying a hundred cases before their thirty it doesn't happen, right,
It just does not happen, especially at big firms and
(33:15):
you know, high stakes litigation. I do uh some training
for law firms, and these are folks who have been
at the law firm for many many many, many years,
and they've never even been close to a trial. If
you ever watch a baseball game and you watch someone
throw the ball from third base to first base, most
people can't even throw a ball that far. It's it's
(33:35):
a long way, and they do it like it's no
big deal. And I think they think of trial work
in sort of the practice of law is something that's
just easy and no big deal. And that's where the
trial training that we give gives these students such a
leg up on their competition on their classmates, because it
(33:56):
is not something you can just walk in and do.
It is not monkey see monkey do. I can mimic
it and I can take care of it. It takes
a lot of training and understanding to know exactly what
you're doing and how to do it, or you'll never
be able to hit a gird ball. So they need
this kind of training because they don't have the luxury
of learning on the backs of their clients. Because at
(34:18):
the end of the day, trials are still happening, even
if it's to a lesser degree, they are still happening.
And that's the cloud looming over all litigation. And if
if you take away that ability, then you're really losing
a major tactical advantage. So you preface what it is
(34:38):
that you're trying to do your market You show it,
you asked to approach, they validate its existence. You publish.
That's kind of the gist of the way this works.
Now you all do have a document. Let's be frank, right,
AJ you you want to create a St. Mary's Law
and national team that's going to be competitively good, and
(35:02):
you talk about that pressure cooker of these students. They've
got their academic rigor and the academic demands. I think
it's really relevant because a lot of criticism about law
school has been what's the real world practical benefit of
going to law school? Like what are you learning in
the classroom versus maybe being on one of these trial teams.
(35:25):
This competitive to get on the team, I presume it's
competitive to stay on the team. It's very competitive to
get on the team. It's very competitive to stay on
the team. The pressure is high when you get on
the team, and a lot of people don't make it.
They withdraw on their own or they withdraw through after
a conversation. My number one goal is not to win championships.
(35:52):
It is not don't get me wrong, I really love winning.
I'm very competitive. If we were to break out a
checkerboard right now, I'm going to play and play and
play and play until I figure out how to beat you.
I like that You're already going in knowing that I'm
beating you at the beginning. There's there's no doubt about that.
(36:13):
But you will get angry at me because I will
make you keep going until I win, until I figure
out what you're doing. And I am not so I
want to impart that competitive spirit on my students, but
it is not not my goal. I grew up really
really poor, Katie. I mean really poor. I had parents
(36:36):
who left Cuba to come here to this country. They
left on a boat, on one of the freedom boats,
like many other Cubans that came to this country fleeing
a communist Cuba Fidel Castro rule, and they came here
with nothing close on their backs. You don't know it
by listening to me, because you don't hear me as
(36:56):
a Latino. Oh but I heard it right there, Latino.
I have seen that's how some people are treated versus
other people. And I've been poor as an adult, and
I've worked through it until I got to this stage
in my life where I'm not poor. I'm not rich,
but I'm not poor. What I know is this is
that there are a lot of people out there who
(37:17):
are not getting the representation that they need. And I
see day in and day out how people do not
represent people correctly. They asked dumb questions. They ask questions
that forward or advanced the theory of the case for
the other side rather than their side. I mean, I've
(37:41):
come from a town of about three thousand people. Um,
everything I've done in my life, people say, well, where
is that from. I had somebody tell me this week
that I sound like cornbread. Whatever they mean, I don't know.
I don't know if that's a good thing or a
bad thing, But I mean that's been my mentality my
whole life. My dad's not a lawyer or a doctor.
My dad a farmer. And the thing is for me,
(38:02):
I'm out to prove to the world that I can
do and I'm going to do it. Hi. My name
is Karen Fraser Craffer, and the first day was quite intimidating,
very intimidating. Has studied those things for weeks and it
seems like it just blanked out Hello and Maria hymis.
So the first day, I think we were all like
maybe texting each other, a bunch of us like what's
(38:22):
gonna happen, what's going on? And we didn't know what
to expect, honestly, And I remember telling some of our
friends I feel like throwing up, like I don't know,
like I'm so nervous. And we get here and it's
like kind of a relief once the first day is over,
because we're like, Okay, it's gonna be hard, but we
can do this a little over a thousand miles due north,
(38:47):
another trial team, the University of South Dakota, is lugging
their law books back to campus. Good morning, good morning,
I was doing this morning. We're doing a series of
quorn tonight. Open next emails are great way to communicate
(39:08):
when we're not going to be played. Uh, the knowledge
is not there front to the email at that shirts
MS Peter and if that I got, we do it.
Come on, Oh listen to dream how you doing start?
(39:35):
So these are the things that we're going to cover tonight,
things that you need to know about law school, mock trial.
We're gonna talk briefly through preliminary matters, which is the
first thing that you're going to say when you're doing
one of these competitions. We're gonna talk about the use
of evidence at the competition. What you need to know
and what the people on this side of the room
already now. In six weeks, we take a fact pattern
(39:58):
that would normally take two to three years to come
to aisle, and we take to trial and they're intense. Uh.
Some of our fact patterns were as long as two
hundred pages last year. Some of them were as short
as sixty five. The thing that you need to know
most of all, you guys are engaged in a highly
competitive law school sport. We have gotten to the point
through the work of the people who have been on
(40:18):
trial team before you, since I have been here, where
we are now regularly getting invited and accepted to top
tier competitions. We are regularly competing against top twenty advocacy schools.
I don't care that their top twenty advocacy schools. They
are not any better than any of you. They are
not any smarter than any of you. They don't have
any advantage over any of you, other than the fact
(40:38):
that they have a pre existing template. We're making all
of that here together because we're building our team together.
We're currently ranked number ninety in the country for trial advocacy.
That means we are in the top half already. Our
goal is to increase that ranking. How do we do
that by showing up and showing out at competitions. Right now,
we're taking over with ethical zealous trial advocacy, and we're
(41:02):
showing them that it doesn't matter what part of the
country that you're from or how much money you've spent
on all of your equipment. We're coming for you and
it's not gonna be fun for you when that happens.
When you walk into that zoom room when you log in.
I don't care if you're going against Baylor. I don't
care if you're going against Temple. I don't care what
school it is that you're competing against. It's four other
(41:24):
law students. You have every potential to beat them, just
as much as they have the potential to beat you.
It's just a question of who's going to do the
work at the end of the day, guys, that's really
all there is to it. So I come to you
at the end of my one l year. I I
hear the siren song of working with coach Laura Rose
being on this amazing team. Walk me through what I
(41:46):
should expect as that first semester too, well, in those
beginning days of that semester with you, what's that gonna
look like for me? The first thing that's gonna happen
is you're gonna be absolutely terrified because we're gonna sit
you down at boot camp and we're gonna tell you
just how this goes. And in the course of that,
you're going to have this moment of oh my gosh,
can I actually do this? And law school on top
of it, it's like drinking water through a fire hose
(42:08):
on extra pressure. When you join trial team on top
of law school, we already know that that law school
is drinking through a fire hose. Now let's take it
up to eleven by adding trial team on top of it.
So you're going to get a faster and more intense
evidence education than what's going on. Questions about cross right now, Yes,
it's something that I learned in trial tech. I think
it's important to focus on the negative space that's there
(42:28):
about what they didn't do versus what they did wrong,
and that's going to be particularly important when we talk
about this this fake environment of the trial team competition, right,
because you're going up against other law students, so they're
going to be trying to play chess against you the
entire time that you're ready to go. Your job is
to be more flutent in their witness than they are
(42:48):
and then to not let them get away with anything.
So everybody likes to say that I'm a little carbon
copy of Dad, with just enough of my mother thrown
in to be interesting. My father's Charles Harrish as the
third He ran sets in University College of Laws Advocacy
program for fourteen years. During that time when he was
in charge, they were always number one, number one in
the nation for trial ad He is a giant of
a personality and a titan within the industry and one
(43:11):
of the people who now all of us who are
currently in the job of coaching and teaching rely upon
for his wisdom and what he did. But there is
no understating the impact that he had on the profession
in particular. But he also casts a giant shadow. Listening
to what they say is absolutely everything and cross examination
(43:32):
you have to be engaged and in the moment. If
you're not paying attention number one, they may give you
a non verbal answer or you need to go back
that's a yes, that's a no, because otherwise it's not
on the record. And then, as you all know, one
of the key jobs of the trial attorneys to protect
the appellate record. You have to make sure that it's
on there, because otherwise you're you're robbing yourself of the argument. Technically,
(43:54):
you're not permitted to argue any of that in your
closing argument because it's not on the record, right, But
listening to what they say provides fertile ground for further
cross examination and further ground for embarrassment for them on
those key facts. Toss out something that we haven't talked
about yet about cross examination. This is the part where
the student interacts with the instructor blah blah blah blah blah.
(44:19):
You know, speak frankly with me, Laura, Are you trying
to build something that's going to exceed that legacy? Are
you trying to outshine it? Are you trying to match it? Like?
Does that create any metrics for you internally for how
you're trying to build and continue to grow and enhance
the program you have at South Dakota. I'm going to
(44:39):
say no. And and here's why I'm going to say no.
I take inspiration from everything that my father has ever done.
We have had a friendly competition going my entire life.
When I took the S A T, I had to
brag to him that I got a better S A
T score than he did. When I took the outside,
I had to do the same thing. Like it's that
kind of way that he's dirtured my own inherent competitive
spirit to allow me to kind of grow into my
own per And now I'm at the point where could
(45:01):
I try and build what Dad built. Sure, good advocacy
is about looking at the facts of your case, looking
at the law, and coming up with a story that
embraces a legal theme, of factual theme, and a moral
theme that calls to justice and uses our trial system
for what it's for, which is speaking truth to power.
That's what I want to build. I want to come
back to this is so important to American democracy that
(45:25):
everywhere should have this level of education and everywhere should
get this level of exposure. And we have one lawyer
for every citizens in our state. So we are a
small bar which means that my students when they graduate
and they go out to practice, they need to be
able to do a little bit of everything. They need
to be a true main street lawyer in the way
that the rest of the country maybe doesn't necessarily have.
(45:47):
The South Dakotan walking down the street who gets busted
for a d u I or a disorderly conduct deserves
somebody who can go in and advocate at the same
level as somebody who's in New York, or who's in California,
or who's anywhere. We need to start recognizing that there
are things in the middle of the country that are
incredibly valuable. There might be that time when some good
(46:08):
Midwestern common sense approach to something is going to actually
do you a lot of favors. So with that, why
don't we go ahead and start wrapping things up for tonight.
I expect to see you all back here bright and
early tomorrow morning. Not only experts people, can I talk
to you at front real QUI. Other than that y'all
are good. You don't please say pizza with you. Whatever
tournament you guys are doing, it's called buffalo. So that's
(46:34):
not all the experts law is about. Rules. I believe
in rules, but more important than rules, it is something
that is based on principles and values, and those are
values of equal justice and fairness of process, and everything
(46:58):
about that is found stating to me. And I love
the idea that it's also about truth, truth finding and
all the mechanisms that you use not only to get
justice and fairness for people, but so the ultimate truth
comes out. And I've always thought of it as a
noble pursuit. I tell the young wars it's a fabulous calling,
(47:20):
but you have to regard it as your calling. Tony
Sarah is a self described radical lawyer. He even took
a vow of poverty in the nineteen sixties. He's represented
clients such as the Black Panthers and the Hell's Angels
at though he is still practicing law and continues to
send fear and loathing into the hearts of judges across
(47:43):
the country. It's a fabulous mission that you're going to
embark on, but you have to regard it as a mission.
If you regard it as a job and that you're
going to sure the interest mostly of corporations, then you're
feeding into the status quo. But it's not really you
(48:07):
is that really where you went to law school? Is
that what you really want to do? Where do you
want to improve our social and political securities? Okay, I'm
(48:40):
gotta started. We're getting started. How's everybody done? I want
to do two things real quick before we really get started.
The first is that you know, while we're in law school,
something's happened. It's just part of life, yeah, and we
(49:01):
all need each other to get through these hard times.
Christian Ramon's father died. It was not expected, which is
why he's not here right now. He's still going to
try to be here tomorrow. They're burying his father today.
So if you know him, and if you don't know him,
(49:23):
maybe we can get a card, a note, a reach
out to him to let him know that he's not alone,
that other people are thinking of him in his time
of need. And if it's within you something that you do,
maybe say a prayer for him and his family. And
(49:43):
there's no doubt that these kind of events are going
to happen to more of us. My mother passed away
this year, just a few months ago, you know, and
people rallied around me, and we've had things that happened.
We've had babies that were born, and we rallied around
each other for babies, the good stuff and the bad stuff.
(50:05):
As we start to get to know each other better
and better, it will become easier and easier to rally around.
Sometimes things happened before we've had that jelling effect. Okay,
so who did not see the video on cross examination?
Now there's no direct that it happened. Yet, why are
(50:25):
we going directly to a cross? We're gonna work on directs.
Directs are harder, crosses are easier. Why our cross is easier?
Someone that watched the video? Tell me why crosses are easier?
Because you're so so only beginning yes or no? Andrews
hopefully yes? Than you're telling the story. Yeah, what do
I call that yes train? Right? Too? Right? That's the
(50:49):
money train? Right, you get someone to say yes, that's
the money train. That's what you want. You want to
run away witness so you can slap them around and
get them on your yes train. How do we control
the witness? The question you're asking and what kind of
questions are we asking? And the leading question is what
(51:13):
is question? One fact? Single fact questions? What is the
one thing that I want to make sure that I
get out of every witness that I cross examle every
witness story, which story? First story? My story? Which is
(51:34):
my which is my theory of the case? How do
I get the theory of my case through that witness?
Bring your chairs, leave your notes, leave your pens, just yourselves.
You can bring water. So I want my first share here. Now,
(52:00):
this is your first time through, and we expect you're
gonna make more mistakes than normal. It's okay. This is
where you're allowed to make mistakes. This is our first
step in cross examinations. They're going to make mistakes. We
don't start yelling until the second time. Right the first time,
(52:20):
It's easy, all stars and top load. I want to
take you back to when you're interviewing Bobby see here
from North Carolina? Where in North Carolina? Eastern North Carolina? Like?
What city? And what's what's in snow hill? There's nothing there? Farms? Farmer,
(52:43):
are you on a farm right now? Where are you? Like?
What are we mimicking here? Trial? And a trial is
in what kind of room? Is is that on a farm?
You're not on a farm. You've got to get serious
right now. You're a little mad at me, aren't you. Yeah,
I'm glad. That's what I was trying to get from you. Okay,
(53:05):
I want you to be a little mad at me.
I want you not on the farm right now. I
love country. There's a place for country right now. We're
not ready for you to be country. I need you
to be in a courtroom. So get mad at me.
Get in the courtroom, get your head right, ask him
those questions, Officer san Toppola. I want to take you
(53:26):
back when you're an interview of Bobby. See Bobby c
got an alert that his credit card would being used. Yeah,
that's right at the zoo trip. Yes, it was. So
your country is an advantage, right, It's a true advantage
(53:46):
that you have. What were people like me? People love
hearing your voice. My voice is common yours isn't right,
but you gotta just it can't be I'm on the farm.
We gotta find that balance where I get to be me.
But I don't want you to think like I'm on
the farm. I earned my right to be here, all right, cool,
(54:11):
thank you? Alright, Well, he made fun of my accent, which, uh,
which is funny now, but I felt like it was
kind of a low blow at the time. Honestly, if
he would have told me my cross examination was terrible,
I would have been like, Okay, let me work on it.
But yeah, he told me that, and it piss me
off a little bit. I'm not gonna lie, actually a lot,
(54:31):
but I mean it's true. He was like, yeah, I
know you got a chip on your shoulder. Um, I
can see it in your eyes. And that's true. And
most of the time in my life, when I get
piste off, when I get angry, I weren't harder. And
that's why he was trying to bring out of me.
And I respect him more. Now I want you to
write five questions cross examining, leading questions. This is your
(54:56):
first boyer into a fact powdern don't go deep into
the weeds. One fact, five questions you have until every year,
a j writes up a simple case packet for the
students to argue. With this case in hand, they prepare
(55:19):
for a short trial where they will have to do
some of the most basic things a trial lawyer must
know how to do. Introduce evidence into the record, impeach
a witness, refresh their memory, and cross examine them. And
that witness well, it'll be played to the Hilt by
A J. So the story is about Bobby CE and
(55:44):
Veronica J. And it's a real story to a certain point,
and then there's parts of it that aren't true. I
used it back when I was at Maryland, and then
I adopted it to hear so that it incorporates local
town lore, including a bar that I love called Barbara.
So Bobby CE and Veronica J. Were at a party.
(56:04):
Veronica wanted to leave the party. She crossed over Martin
Luther King Boulevard near Camden Pub on Baltimore Street in
Baltimore City. Two men acrost them with a gun, demands
um their property. Veronica gives their phone and their purse.
Bobby gives his wallet. The robbers did not take Bobby's
(56:25):
phone because he had an analog phone. The robbers laughed
at him and they ran off, And Bobby CE and
Veronica J. We're so frightened by it that they never
saw anyone that they couldn't tell you the person was
a man or a woman or white, black, Hispanic Asian.
(56:46):
They couldn't tell you anything about him. They were afraid.
They were frozen in time. Two police officer to show up.
Bobby gets a phone call from the bank says, your
credit cards being used at a gas station. Police put
him in the back of the car. They go to
the gas station. Veronica yells, that's them, that's people that
robbed me. Bobbys says, I don't know. I was too afraid.
I don't know if it's them or it's not. Police
(57:07):
officers go out talk to the guys and they were
both arrested for the robbery. Maybe those of you that
were having a little bit of a hard time will
agree with rushing or skipping makes it hard. I make
a mistake, So that's why you have to learn this
(57:28):
like the back of your hand, all right. I asked
Dennisis to do her five question cross in front of
all of you. There's a lesson here that we're going
to learn. So there's an error and a recovery. I
want you to hear the error so that you can
(57:51):
learn from it, not do it to yourselves. I'll explain
it when it happens. We're good, John, you were called
about a robbery. I was, yes, it involved two bigger
that's correct. It did not mention the number of roberts, correct.
(58:11):
It did not mention the gender of the robberts. That's correct.
You arrested two men at a gas station. Yes, it
was two men. So you arrested two men without having
any underlying fact of the gender of the robbers. So,
I mean, we had other evidence to suggest that the
(58:32):
robbers were male, um, particularly the call um. Obviously he
was able to identify eventually that the two men. Good
got you got back what you wanted, right, all right?
First I put her on a spot. So thank you, Jennis,
just for doing that. Right. What was the question that
you shouldn't have asked? He arrested two men without any description.
(58:55):
So the question again, jennesss, So you arrested two men
without having any underlying facts of the gender of the robbers.
Now that sounds like a yes or no question, doesn't
It doesn't. That's a yes or no question. But it's not.
It's not a yes or no question. Say it again.
(59:16):
So you arrested two men without any underlying fact, without
any underlying facts. What does that give the witness that
takes that yes no question and creates it into an
opportunity for a narrative. It's the one question too many.
(59:42):
It's trying to get the witness to make the argument
for you. When do we argue? When do we argue clothes?
We arguing clothes? Is the witness gonna argue for me? Now,
the witness is never on my side on a US examination,
I'm not going to help me. So this is genesis.
(01:00:05):
I told him I grew up in a Mexican household
and there was no sugarcoating. Ever. It was always very direct,
you know. I would come out of my mom would
say that shirt looks ugly. Go change. It was very
that's wrong, fix it so here with a J. I
really like that teaching style. That's how I grew up.
I kind of feel home. It doesn't hurt my feelings.
So if you do it wrong, it's gonna be an
(01:00:27):
improper impeachment. Someone's gonna exect because you do it wrong.
Now you got to go back and do it again.
Now the judge is getting piste off of you, the
jury is getting piste off of you. So that's how
we're trying to be perfect right so that you don't
have to do it again, so you don't get objected
to on an improper or an imperfect impeachment showing up
the council you have I always stand. I stand when
(01:00:51):
I crossed the jam, and I stand when I addressed
the court. I definitely stand when I addressed the jury.
Your mind has to be show fast, so acute, so much.
We call that you develop what you're gonna say right then.
It's a spontaneity that creates the value. My god, I've
(01:01:12):
seen lawyers read their cross examination. I've seen lawyers read
their close saved without passion. That's not the way to
do a young lawyer's you know, stand up, be vociferous,
be independent, be spontaneous, be creative, fight, be in their face.
(01:01:36):
But you should know your path, the way that you're
going to go. The two three things that I want
from this witness, you should know what those are. You're
all going to court tomorrow. How ready are you going
to be? You cannot pass this class if you do
not enter a piece of evidence, impeach the witness, and
(01:02:00):
refresh their memory. Those are the three things that you
have to do. That's it. I want to hear your thinking,
your thoughts, how you want to do it, how you
put your case together. It has to be logical. You're
gonna have your documents so that you can get to them.
You can easily locate that document, so that you have
(01:02:21):
a copy for you, a copy for the judge, a
copy for the witness. You might have a spare copy
in case coffee gets spilled on one by accident. And
it's curious to see whether or not you are prepared
for court, so you should be ready for trial. For
the students, tonight will be a long one spent pressing
(01:02:42):
their suits and rehearsing in front of the mirror for
tomorrow it's judgment tank. I take it. You know what
a rabbit hole looks like? Yes, you can never get out.
And what's in the bottom of there? Nothing right, rabbit's living,
the rabbit hole and the poop. When you're going down
(01:03:03):
to the rabbit hole and you're going down to a
barrel of boop, that's next time on Class Action. Class
Action is a production of I Heart Radio and Sound Argument, created, produced, written,
and edited by Kevin Huffman and Lisa Gray. Executive producers
(01:03:24):
are Taylor Chacogne and Katrina Norvelle. Sound design, editing and
mixing by Evan Tire and Taylor Chacogne. This episode had
additional field production by Kristen Cabrera, Paul Ebson, Alfredo de
la Garza and Malia Lukomski. Additional story production by Jennifer Swan,
(01:03:45):
Kristin Cabrera, Jason Foster, and Wendy Nardi. For more podcasts
from I heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you get your favorite shows.
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