August 9, 2022 • 50 mins
Mock trial is supposed to prepare you for real trial. Andy and Jasmin are about to see if that’s true. They are going to face off in Bexar County Court for an actual case in front of a judge and jury.
Learn more about the schools, programs and special guests:
St. Mary's University Law School
Texas Young Lawyers Association
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Visit our show page for transcripts and more details about the series at ClassActionPod.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Class Action is a production of I Heart Radio and
Sound Argument. M H. I think this is the cord
um So. I've been in some of these before, so
high So eleven is one of the courts. So like,
(00:25):
I'm a misdemeanor like intern, like for all of the
clerk for all of the courts. It's scary, like you're
walking into this big machine like this is like the machine,
like this is our justice machine, and it's really intimidating.
You don't know anyone. You know, you don't know what
your rule is going to be. You don't know how
they're going to use you. You Yeah, you just don't
(00:46):
know anything or anyone or like you know, are the
ad is intimidating? Are thing nice? Well? They like you
where they give you where you know, you don't know anything.
Um So the first day was like all about figuring
out all of that stuff as well as can I
leave for lunch? Where's the bathroom? Like yeah, it was
really really intimidating. Um So I have all of the
(01:06):
misdemeanor courts and so like it's like fourteen of them,
fifteen of them, so you know, um if one of
the ads is like, oh, we're going to trial, on
the stage and we come, I'll go to trial and
fourteen for all being like picturing with them or whatever.
So it's pretty cool, Okay. I think it's this way.
(01:45):
Rock to to seven five. The State of Texas versus
to Day is March thirty. Yesterday we has lending jury
swarming again and then then whether the rain. Less than
(02:07):
a month after their run to the National Championships stalled
at the one yard line, X teammates Andy Viscia and
Jasmine ole Gaene are about to face off in an
actual criminal trial at the Bear County Courthouse in San Antonio.
It's a misdemeanor case. Andy will be second chairing for
the d a's office and Jasmine will be in a
similar role with her defense firm, and to up the stakes,
(02:30):
the defense team's lead attorney is none other than Jason Goss,
their former coach from the St. Mary's Trial team. I'm
just really proud, you know. It's kind of like going
against a child, or's something where you know you're proud
of him, but you're also trying to beat him. Um,
and I do want to beat them because I think
it's justice for my client. It's I mean, it's so cool.
(02:52):
I mean, I just I want to be just like him.
It's it's crazy, it's so cool to see him. On
the other hand, I didn't know we're going to be
going in directly, had ahead, but you know, somewhat I was.
I was nervous. I couldn't you breakfast, I had to
drink tea. I wasn't I didn't crack a Celsius until
until later on in the day when I had calmed down.
And it's like, you stand and deliver, you don't care
(03:13):
who's on the other side. I'm feeling excited, for sure,
interested to see how the rest of this case plays out.
But as of now, I feel like my heart is
like kind of like in a little like a little
fire in my heart because of this. Because everything we've
been hearing and seeing, it's so like upsetting that we're
(03:37):
here trying this case and didn't. Even more bizarre twist,
Jason's wife and fellow trial team coach Maritza Steward, She's
going to supervise Andy during the trial. It's pretty amazing
thing to do because it's it's funny, it's what we've
been you know, we hope to see and we've always
said that that's one of our things that we're proud
(03:58):
of that any of our students can go you know,
if they worked with us and you know, committed to
the program, they learned the ideals at a j and
you know, Coach Goss and I, you know, try and teach.
So it's student versus student, student versus teacher, husband versus wife.
What more could you possibly want? This is episode eleven
(04:21):
of Class Action. First thing I would inquire is why
do you want to become a lawyer? Yes? Why do
(04:44):
you want to be a lawyer? The idea that I,
at twenty three years old, can walk into a courtroom
next year and run it front to back better than
some of these people that have been practicing for ten
twenty years. I'm like, that's insane to me. I like
(05:04):
the puzzle. You are given a set of facts and
you have to make those facts work with what your
client wants. And it doesn't matter if your client is
the state, it doesn't matter if your client is an actual,
living human being in front of you. They have something
that they want and your job as an attorney is
(05:27):
to make sure whatever given situation can work out for them.
You do become a different version of yourself, because no
one would want that in there every day. I wouldn't
have any friends. I've always kind of likened it to
My mom was an absolute maniac about our table manners
when we were growing up. But she wanted to make
(05:49):
sure that when I went to that nice dinner, I
exuded confidence because I knew that I could, I could
hang with the you know, with the big kids kind
of thing. It's the same way I know I know
what I'm doing, just as much as I know I'm
picking up the right fork for the right meal kind
of thing. That's future lawyers Hayley Nichols, Dylan Ramsdad Spoils
(06:10):
and Brooke Bomb Gardner and two seven a summary of
this case. In twenty nineteen, the San Antonio Police were
called to a scene at four am on the west
side of town, not far from the St. Mary's campus.
The complaint was coded as a disturbance neighbor gun involved.
(06:35):
For privacy, we're going to remove the names of the
persons in this case. Is he the one Yarlet's calling
on dy And? When Officer Garcia arrived on the scene,
(06:58):
she found a crowd gathered around victim who was lying
on the ground. Half in some bushes and half on
the sidewalk. Okay, did you just have a seizures? That's
what's what's going on. Or the victim we'll call him Boris,
was staring into space and had bumps and contusions on
(07:18):
his face. Okay, yeah, you may want to spit your
tooth out. No, you don't choke on it. And you
didn't see any of this, right, sir, I'm sorry you
didn't see any of this. Alright. This is Boris's husband.
He's also an eye witness, well sort of, but you
(07:38):
didn't see anything. I thought him beating him up. Okay,
who's who's them? So I bet the three guys, all
three of them, well, I saw all three of them coovery,
because it's all happened so fast that I was like
freaking out. Okay, all right, so have a good night.
Boris came around and told Officer Garcia that his neighbor,
(08:01):
a man will call Carlos, was sitting in his car
with a bunch of guys playing his stereo at high
volume at four o'clock in the morning music top blow.
It's completely can make sure that his off our whole neighborhood.
They do every day I understand why. Forest then told
Officer Garcia that he approached the car and knocked on
(08:24):
the window and the next thing, you know, he didn't
punching me. I was letting low and he was continuously
punching you do you know? Do you know which one?
And w do you want to come talk to me?
Lecture the third? This is Carlos's nephew who was in
(08:47):
the front passenger seat. So what's going on? What happened
all of a sudden? Yes, it's like, I mean, I
didn't think the music is still all. To be honest,
we had a fairly low because we at one point
he comes up to the chuck bops, okay, and then
that's what he pulled the gun. He's like, you needn't
(09:08):
turn it, Connor. What's the gun? He was? It was
romish kind of gun. I guess he pulled it out
from the sign. He's like, you turn the music down now,
blah blah blah. Okay, But you didn't really explain how
he ended up on the ground and everything. So how
did that? What did that happen? At? How we have
so nicely to leave him pushed him, you know, not
(09:29):
too hard though, just enough to get him off our property,
trying to push him back. Didn't by any chance did
did you hit him or anything like that? All right?
What about uncle? Right? What about her uncle him or
anything like that? All right, we're self defense. But but
I'm not going to deny that we didn't. Yes, yes
(09:53):
or no. I'm not gonna lie to you, guys. I
mean I did that. I didn't assault that ba I
don't want any trouble them. Yeah, fortunately tonight, buddy, it's
gonna have to go down like this. But uh, what
madis moils is what happens after this and hopefully are
never in handcuffs ever again. All Right, I didn't assaulting
tool at all? How do I prove like this? Or
(10:14):
you're spitting teeth out of his mouth, but look at
my hands. If you're spining teeth out of his mouth,
my hands would be cut. There's still cuts on my hands.
I'm just saying, yeah, we don't either, buddy. We're just
trying to do our job and I don't just trying
to have a good time on a Friday. I understand.
(10:35):
All right, Just sit tight or I'll turn on the
acing for you. I'm sorry. Carlos was ultimately charged with
assault with bodily injury. It should be pointed out here
that normally a misdemeanor case like this would almost never
make it to trial. But this is America, and if
you've been listening to this podcast all along, you know
(10:58):
we are all about half the constitutional right to a
fair hearing. Facing potential jail time, Carlos bonded out and
decided to seek defense counsel, and here he turned to
Jason Goss and Jasmine ole Gain to defend him at trial,
but this time against her former teammate. I know her responses.
(11:25):
I know the way she thinks. You know she knows
the way I think. Like we both have the same
little senses, like if we hear certain questions or responses,
like we're trained by the same coach, Like both of
our senses start like tingling or like okay, this, this
is this is this, and like with objections, like I
I know she's gonna object to and like what she's
feeling and stuff like that. So maybe like not advantage,
(11:48):
but like I know her and I think her coach
knows her too. The dynamic between counsel is interesting. Now
for some perspective on this whole becoming a lawyer thing.
Here's pre Barra. Counterintuitively, my experience has been that prosecutors
and defense lawyers are much more cordial and friendly. Some
(12:11):
become quite good friends. And part of the reason is
there's a lot of stake in a criminal case, and
the most professional defense lawyers and prosecutors, they're not taking
it as personally. You know, it's it's not personal. It's business.
To quote from the Godfather. Sometimes someone's a jerk, like
they're There are jerks in every profession, and there are
jerks at trial sometimes, and then you have to be
(12:33):
careful not to let your temper get the better of you,
and you treat everyone with respect in the court room
and certainly in front of the jury, because the don't
know what's gone on behind the scenes. Another peculiar question
arises for defense lawyers in criminal cases who may have
a long relationship with the prosecutors. They may have been colleagues.
You know, people become prosecutors defense lawyers to go back
(12:53):
and forth. That's the case with Jason Goss. He was
an assistant DA in this very courthouse for ten yours
before switching sides, so he's on very familiar ground here.
Back to the case at hand. A six member juries
and paneled and Judge Carlo Rodriguez Key is en robed.
I think if everyone's first trial could be this difficult
(13:17):
and uh, this convoluted um, and they could still get
through with everything else after, that's going to seem fairly easy.
So it's a great introduction into how tough things can be.
And here we are a trial which begs the question, well,
let's start with why do we need trials? Ashley Email
(13:38):
is a Texas lawyer who runs the National Trial Competition
and apparently she's also an amateur legal historian. So, for
those of you who don't know, trials before they were
in a courtroom were by duel and if you died,
you were the one lying. That's how that was decided. Um.
So then we got to trials, and maybe that was
(13:59):
a little more fair, maybe not. Maybe it was just
one person shouting this is what happened, and a judge
that I believe you. And so then we got rules
of evidence, and this is how we sort of make
sure that our trial system is working the way that
it should. Obviously it is not perfect. I don't think
any person would ever try to tell you that the
(14:21):
our justice system is perfect, but I think it's the
best system we've got for trying to make sure that
anybody accused of something has a fair shot for defending
themselves with a lawyer who knows how this system works,
I'm not shaking my boots. Can I win? Probably no,
Probably not on my first one. If I'll be honest,
(14:42):
i'd be. I'd be very shocked, which just sucks, because
I do believe this was an assault. I can't it alone,
and it'd be it'd be thinking very high with myself
to think that I would be able to do this
on my first try. When you're working a real trial,
it becomes your life for many months, sometimes for a
(15:02):
year or more. From the moment you charge a case,
or even from the moment you start investigating a case,
there's always a little voice in the back of your
head thinking how is this going to play at trial?
What am I gonna do at trial? And then when
you're actually on trial those two weeks or six weeks
or four months or whatever it may be, you I
didn't eat, I didn't sleep. I used to lose pounds
(15:23):
when I was on trial. I don't have that much
to lose. Um it was incredibly stressful and difficult. And
then at the end um cathartic. This is Elijenig, former
prosecutor in New York Southern District and a legal analyst
at CNN. He knows that when a prosecutor like Andy
has handed a brief, she'll have a lot of questions.
(15:44):
So two things about about that. First of all, prosecutors
rely on what we call an order of proof, and
it's basically like not quite a script, but it's just
a listing of all your pieces of evidence from exhibit
one through exhibit four teen hundred um. And you learned
to use that as an outline and a guide to
(16:04):
your case. But I want to say this about evidence.
There's a misnomer out there, or misperception that more is better. Oh,
a mountain of evidence that phrase right. Oh, Look, they
have huge amounts of evidence that can really backfire. It's
not about quantity of evidence, it's about quality of evidence.
I learned that the hard way. There was really two
different approaches to evidence. We used to say at the
(16:26):
Southern District. There was the kitchen sinkers, the people who
wanted to throw in everything they had, and then there
was the thin two winners, which I became the first
mob trial I ever did. I was the junior person
of three on the case, and the guys who ran
it were kitchen sinkers. And we did this trial that
took two months, and we had hundreds and hundreds of exhibits.
We played the jury I think ninety or ninety five
(16:46):
different recordings that we had a cooperator who had made
and that case ended up going bad. We had a
couple of the defendants were acquitted. We had a couple
of defendants where the jury hung, so we got to
retry those two defendants where the jury long A year
or so later, by this point I was leading it.
We said, okay, we're cutting out all the fluff. We're
going with our strongest evidence. We went from recordings down
(17:09):
to twelve. We got that. Instead of a two month trial,
we did it in a week and a half. For
two weeks jury came back convicted. Like that. For this trial,
it seems like Jason Goss is more of a kitchen sinker.
He's dug up all sorts of apparent shenanigans on the
part of the d a's office. First off, the nine
on one tape was destroyed by the d a's Office,
(17:31):
unclear why. In second, the victim, Boris, was previously convicted
on a domestic violence charge involving his husband. That conviction
was later overturned and the records were destroyed by the
d a's office, which Jason argues is tantamount to a
Brady violation, essentially accusing the state of withholding exculpatory evidence
(17:53):
from the defense. And for us, we believe that this
guy has been railroaded all the way through and we
want the jury to see that at the end. Since
I wasn't at the trial, I do hesitate to characterize
this as a smoke screen, but I can imagine this
is going directly over the heads of the young prosecution team.
The one thing that's always looking forward to on the
fens is like, this is the kind of stuff I
(18:15):
try to get into. When I was a prosecutor, the
judge went always protect the defendant and say no, no, no,
be kicking. But in this case, you know, I feel
like I'm not you know what I'm getting. You don't
keep that damn what the prosecution thinks about you or
even the judge. Tony Sarah has seen it all before.
(18:35):
He's eighty seven, a West Coast trial legend and stalwart
defense attorney. I just finished a murder trial in Janose.
It took about three months. Came back satisfactory that I
got a trial separate November seventh. It's another attempted murder
on a police officers life. So I do controversial cases,
(18:59):
and I um defend people who ordinarily are overlooked or
marginalized in the legal system. I've been fighting, you know, racism.
I've been fighting what would call over zelvous prosecutions all
of my career. So I tell the young lawyers, it's
(19:21):
a fabulous calling, but you have to regard it as
a calling. It's a fabulous mission that you're going to
embark on, but you have to regard it as a mission.
If you regard it as a job and that you're
going to serve the interest mostly of corporations, then you're
(19:45):
feeding into the status quo. Uh you say, knocked his team,
(20:08):
not to I'm conscious and I'm here just siding that not.
The golpening statements are among the most important parts of
a trial. It's your first impression on the jury, so
you need to begin with credibility. I was really fortunate.
(20:28):
When I was starting out in the office of the
Federal Public Defender in l A. This is noted defense
attorney Laura Basilon, who runs a law clinic for racial
justice in San Francisco. I had a supervisor. He said,
those eleven seconds, you'll never get them back. And he
also said that a lot of lawyers really don't do
opening statement justice. That they stand up and say an
(20:49):
opening statement, these are the elements of the offense. These
are how I'm going to prove the elements of the offense.
And the jury goes to sleep. But if you stand
up and you have one sentence that crystallizes your case,
and you're saying it in this passionate way, then all
of a sudden, you have twelve pairs of eyes that
are focused on you. There is and so I want
to talk to you about what actually happened, and what
(21:10):
the evidence is going to prove happening, and how the
world on September seven nine team turned upside down because
the one thing that she did. You've got to take
over the court. You've got to dominate. Your personality has
to be the strongest, Your contact with the jury has
to be, you know, formidable. Andy gets a shot at
(21:34):
doing the first direct examination of a witness for us
his husband, right, but true to life, the guy has
a hearing problem and the microphones in the courtroom aren't working,
and well it's a modern day trial by fire trying
(21:56):
to have a bit of hearing problems and just for everyone,
wait to see that one. Alright up, can you hear?
Just watch? Sorry, it's a real jury. Um. I think
it's similar in a lot of ways, but it's also
(22:16):
I mean it's different in a lot of ways. Um.
You know, I have to remember little things that I
wouldn't have to remember in mock right, Like I'm making
out contact with all of them. Are you following me?
How do I look to them? One of the hardest
things to do, particularly early on, is keep the poker face.
There's nothing more important than the poker face. Jurors are
(22:38):
looking at the lawyers at their tables and going back
and forth, often from the person on the witness stand
to the lawyer at the table, to see if they're
reacting poorly something. We don't have a guestion both her
and I question him close to him, and we can
discuestion the jury and see how kind of like that
idea that you want to right. So a jura might
(23:01):
hear a witness say something like, oh, that sounds like
it's harmful to the prosecution, and look and see did
the prosecution flinch? Are they passing notes because they might
not know because they haven't connected all the things together.
You know the case better than any juror will ever
know the case. Good. Would you again to the members
of the jury, would you introduce yourself? And then to
(23:22):
the members of the jury okay, okay, and whole shape
speer voice, would you please introduce yourself again to the
members of the jury. I tend to have a lot
of emotional reactions that show themselves in my face, and
(23:43):
so I've had to train myself to to not to
not do that. And I think the other thing I've
had to do is look less stern, because unfortunately, that
kind of expression, particularly in women, is off putting. It's funny.
I've always been told by my supervisors that you need
(24:03):
to smile more, Laura, and I'm like, there's nothing to
smile about here. This is a very high stakes, very
grim situation. The walls are weeping carrying out perfect all right,
Would you introduce yourself more time. It's not a smiley faced,
cheerleading time. At the same time, I do think there
(24:25):
are occasional moments of levity and that it's good to
look like someone who people can in some way relate to. Uh,
did you see him at you know, appressively punched the car,
was doing anything aggressive that you could see for your porch? Okay?
And then you said that you saw him leave right
(24:47):
when he left, and do you know what we want
just after people? Okay, didn't look like from where you
were standing, did it look like he was trying to
trust us onto your property. Well, like you're trying to
bring me to their home side in their house. Okay,
(25:08):
so we know someone window, that's what you see? After that?
What do you see? Ah, I'll do that. I've done
many trials in front of fake treat But so it's
just kind of it's a weird duality that exists right now.
And so I'm you know, I'm not trying to make
excuses for myself, and I don't want to ever do
(25:28):
that to her, because she's right, I do know better.
But at the same time, I'm I'm still learning and
I'll continue to be keep learning. So I just taking
everything that's stride. At any point, did you see your
husband pull a gun? Did you see a gun at
all that night? Extreme me and I I'm talking to gun.
(25:49):
I've always been god. You know I've never allowed okay,
but you know you're aware that your husband does own
a gun. Yeah, Christian, okay, So let me get it right.
(26:11):
Turn the music down. Started walking to the dog. They
rolled up the window. They started blasting the music. He
finished along with the dog. He brought the dog inside,
went back over to them and told him turn the
music down. A good defense attorney like Jason Goss, he's
(26:32):
going to pick apart a fuzzy head of witness like
this while on cross that's what you testify that based
on what you saw. There's no reason to call the
cops on you based upon what you could see that
and you don't want him to go to jail. Your husband,
(26:56):
that one. He's obviously he's this group of people is
said he would agree with that. I don't know, there's
no question. Obviously they're upset. He said that they're yelling
at this ring. I've been confrontational all my life. I
have a dear friend that it was in college All
(27:19):
American Football for Oklahoma. And when I have done cases
with him, and it's as if if he doesn't get
the answer he wants, he's gonna walk up and slug
it with his fists. And he would just stand up
there like he had a stick in his hand, you know,
or some kind of a baseball bat, and he was
(27:40):
be slugging this witness. If he didn't tell the truth that,
I was going, Oh boy, that's guy's good. I want
to be like that. First asked you, she said you
didn't see him. Then she said no, I saw nothing.
You heard yourself say that, yes, And you also said
I was in bed and I heard my dogs running.
(28:03):
That's what you said at the police office. You testified
to the jury that you were in your office, but
you told the officer you were in bed. Okay, scare
him into telling the truth, you know, confront them, shake
your finger in their face when you think you're lying.
(28:26):
In every single jury trial, there will be something to
go after that is untrue coming from the prosecution. Their
witnesses frequently are tainted. You know, they have a history.
They have been impeaqued so many times. So what I
(28:46):
tell young lawyers, just the most important thing about being
a trawler. You gotta know everything. You've got to read
every bit of discovery. If your mind isn't good enough
to retain in it and try another profession. So you
cannot even tell us right now that your memory of
(29:08):
something five minutes after it happened was better than your
memory of something too and a half Africa of his
ability and all sustaining as events. Thanks for us, well,
you said, I'm just feeling I don't know, I'm it's weird.
(29:32):
I'm feeling like my skills were good, but I there's
a lot of things to this case, and I think substantively,
I think I'm beating feeling a little defeated, um, just
because I mean, you really, you know, we we pre
trialed our witnesses, you know, and you really never know
(29:53):
what they're going to act like on the stand, and
you can tell them a million times like this is
what you need to do, you know, just yes or no,
Just answer my questions yes or no and cross, you know,
and you never know how they're going to react. I mean,
and it was and you can now I see the
practicality of it that it's like it'll blow up your case.
You said, you do not remember seeing the police at all,
(30:16):
not at all when seeing yourself on their body ever,
seeking the help the refreshmtory about what you said that
you know, he walks around this place and throughout the
day like all of these little prosecutors were coming into
trial and they weren't coming in to see us. They're
coming in and see him because you know how kid
he is. So I mean it just, I mean, it's
(30:37):
so cool and obviously it would be so much cooler
if he wasn't on the other side, can quank you
to see my own work, just to say your day? Okay, um,
(31:04):
I'm saying okay, and how are we gonna do that?
A little little later on in the day, patrol Officer
Garcia is called to the stand. In their questioning prosecutors
Andy and Cassidy are courteous and respectful of law enforcement. Okay,
so when you were violency, he had give us free
(31:26):
description of what was going on. Yes, So once I
went unseen, basically I saw a small crowd of people
over a male on the ground. Um. So obviously as
an officer and wind intent. They wrap up Officer Garcia's
testimony pretty quickly, but then Jason Goss comes back to
(31:46):
his objection about the immissibility of Boris's criminal background and
his husband's history of lying to the police. Officer Garcia
steps down from the stand. The jury is excused and
Gass and the judge argued case law and legal precedent
for an hour. People idea that this witnesses. The VAS
(32:09):
office believed that this witness did not solve and didn't
call this person as a witness, and they drone on
and on and on, and then the day is done.
Round one goes to the defense. Um, we baked out
of the courtroom and I was like, I feel like
you ever feel like you've been in a boxing match
(32:31):
with the person that taught you how to box? It's
like not, yeah, I mean it's a lot. You know,
you want to decompress and you're like, okay, but there's
still a really long way to go in this trial,
which is crazy because it's a missing mirror. I don't
know it's a missed me now, but it is. You know,
I really don't know what I envisioned myself as in
being a lawyer, because with my last two summers of working,
(32:55):
it's just you're constantly changing on how you approach things,
and so I don't really think I don't know who
I am as a lawyer for maybe ten years into practice.
It takes ten years to be comfortable doing what you're doing.
But I would like to be my goal of what
i'd like to be an a lawyer, someone who is
um very patient, because it does take a lot of
(33:17):
patients and time to work with people. In general, I think,
no matter what career you go into, and I would
like to base someone who has answers. I want to
be a lawyer where someone's comfortable saying, we know we
can go to Bailey. She's going to solve whatever issue
I have. So that's that's my goal. So what's happening
now in DA's offices, especially Brooklyn, is it's not just
(33:40):
what happens with a perpetrator in a case is not
solely dependent on the charges they're facing or the victims
preference in what happens. If we also have to take
into account what will help the defendant, how can we
prevent this from happening again? What will do justice for
the defendant the victim while keeping public safety in mind.
(34:04):
I do work for prisoners legal Services as my externship.
It'll be going on three semesters now, and my clients
have committed very egregious crimes there So, in a sense,
you know, I am, I am making the choice to
advocate for someone who has committed murder, who has committed rape,
and who has made the choice to do something consciously
(34:27):
that is quite a terrible offense. But in that case,
their constitutional rights have still been violated. And so I
do believe that although this person has made a decision,
that doesn't negate the government's responsibility to grant them their
constitutional rights. That was Bailey more It, Phoebe Medicare and
(34:49):
Ellie Sands. The next day, Officer Garcia has to wait
another hour while the defense continues to argue about the
old conviction. The judge has had enough and resolves the
issue and puts it on the record for any future appeal. Okayna. Finally,
(35:24):
Officer Garcia is recalled to the stand for her cross examination,
and she'll sit in that witness chair for the next
four hours while her every move and motivation will be
picked apart by Jason Goss. I understand, I watch. What
we're really trying to point out is there's a difference
(35:45):
between what I hear what actually had and you have
training about how to deal with people who have done?
Have you been when you went to the police, had
me Otherwise? What would you agree with your investigation solely
(36:09):
focused on, maybe owing to their inexperience or simple exhaustion.
The prosecution had very few objections. I think most people
would agree with me that you don't back down from
a case. If I if when you're a prosecutor, I
would think when I'm a prosecutor that I have a
(36:30):
case that I really believe in and that I want
to bring to trial. Um, I don't think i'd back
down just because I you know, counsels big and scary
and so good, right, which is why you know, we
were like, wow, this is weird, but it's really cool
seenior coach, Like he really is such an icon for
us because his presence, the way he gets things out.
(36:53):
I don't know, I'm just really happy to be here
and just everything he's been saying, it's like my heart,
like little Brady thing. I was like, heart, heart, Heart,
Is there one good words? Farmer? When we introduce yourself
(37:19):
remembers the drum. I wanted the jury to get to
know you little bit. So where do you live? How
long have you lived there? Um? Fifty years except for
a couple of years when I went off to the college.
On day three, Jasmine, who had been sitting quietly taking
(37:41):
notes and strategizing with Jason, she gets her chance to
do a short direct of a key witness for the defense.
Have you ever had a problem with the playing any
music since I moved in? Have you been able to
interact with them? Yes? Have you been able to see
(38:05):
their interactions with other neibors? Have you been able to
see them interact with each other? Yes? In these five years?
Do you have enough experience to be able to form
an opinion on so? Do you have an opinion on
(38:26):
the character for violence? I believe he's problems of violence.
Do you have an opinion on character for untruthfulness? I
don't believe him to be trustworthy Because we have some Yes,
And just like that, the case for the prosecution is
(38:49):
on the rocks and Jason Goss is on deck. Yesterday, Um,
we're having a lot of technical issues. I was really
late and I told coach Coach I could finish this
if you want to go work on your clothes, and
he said no, I don't have to work on anything.
I was like, I hate myself. I would I tell him.
But you guys here they're bourboning. Proved is beyond the
(39:10):
reasonable doubt. And it's not just beyond the reasonable doubt
that assault caused, or or hid or push or shove
or rolled in the bushes, because you can believe all
of that beyond the reasonable down. But they still have
to prove to you beyond the reasonable doubt that it's
not self defense. And remember this is not serious. Bodily
(39:32):
injury is bodily injury. They are entitled to do bodily
injury that is forced. The judges ready the law. They're
entitled to use force to prevent trespass, entitled to punch
somebody in the face. They're entitled to throw them on
the ground. They're entitled to push them. They're entitled to
do whatever. It's safe to say that Andy was tapping
her feet the whole time, just itching to get in there,
(39:54):
and finally she gets her big chance to do a closing.
I'm gonna tell you that the world didn't flipped on
that day for this one. I just didn't. The world
kept turning just like it always does, right, side up.
The way always has the way it always well. See
(40:16):
people fight. They knock each other out. I know you
know this. And sometimes they have good reason. Sometimes they
have reason. Sometimes they have no reason at all. Sometimes
people knock each other out getting fights just because they
can't because they're the bigger guy. Sum made in your
(40:39):
small excided about the way you looked at me and
like we you spoke to me. I didn't write that
you came over here at four in the morning and
told me to turn the music down. I can do
whatever I want. She even pulls out the old St.
Mary's chestnut, the salute to the American flag. It's like
(41:00):
when you look behind the judge at that flag that's resting, unfoladable,
and you can't see all the stars and you can't
see all the stripes, you still know, right beyond reasonable doubt,
you know what that is. You know that that's flat
in the United States of America, or the laws that
we have are meant to keep people safe, or the
(41:22):
laws that we have we're meant to keep our community safe.
Were the laws that we have tried tried their best
never to condone. Pilots always try to say violence is
not the answer. You, the jury, have the power to
the side on the facts of this case. You the jury,
(41:45):
and the power to decide whether you're going to allow
the Vilens to be the answer and her commannity, whether
it's okay if you don't like custone talks to you,
if you don't like how they look at you. But
you cannot go. She fought, and you cannot go all
(42:07):
because he can find the defendant. She fought, and she fought,
and she fought. And I knew this day would come
where I would see her in trial one day, and
I didn't know fresh off of that last loss, which
I know she took a lot, really hard because she
didn't get to get in the game. And I told
(42:28):
her that something big is going to happen soon. And
I don't know if she ever would realize how how
big this is because she's just being antie. It all
came together, It culminated all together, everything that we've practiced, played,
prayed everything for for her. I saw it in that moment,
and seeing her argue against him and not back down,
(42:49):
it makes me feel so proud. I'm not her mother,
I'm not her sister, but I just I feel like
she's family, and just like when even when I saw
Jasmine asking questions, like you just see these babies and
they come through and you're just like, you know, I
wonder you know, I know they're good people, and I
just I hope they continue on and work on their skills.
And she did that. I mean, she she killed it.
(43:10):
So I mean, I just I don't know. It was
an amazing feeling and I just couldn't have them that smile.
Tiarra cried, yes, alright, well you can jury find the defendent.
Jo alright, jury service than wow, wow trial every artist
(43:40):
trial I've ever done, the most law I've ever seen,
h so, the best work I've ever seen. UM, So
I hope you can appreciate what you saw here today.
The verdict was not guilty. Um. The jury did come
back pretty quick, so I think I don't know anything
(44:02):
that my first time, but I was like, can that
be good um for the state at least, like I said, like, justices,
whatever an impartial durve of your peers says, it is um,
And I think that's the beauty of it. And I
think I just feel really grateful that I've gotten this
training that allows you to see both sides of the
(44:23):
coin and allows you to see that just like there
can be bad people on both sides, there can be
really great people on both sides, um, and there can
be people that are you know, fighting for the community,
and hey, like, are we going to say that this
is right? Like are we going to just like go
around letting people just punch each other just you know,
because you can because you're mad or even if you
have a reason, all right, you relax regardless. I think
(44:46):
that that is what justices. And you know, I mean
this time it wasn't it. This time they said it
was okay. Um, But that's the beauty of it. So
you know, onto the next I got kind of choked up,
like I wanted to cry, but I was just so happy.
Like you heard, you know, the client's wife like gas
and started crying and you could I could see him
(45:06):
physically start getting emotional. And but it was like such
a joy because it wasn't injustice to him. And he's
for two years he's had to be reporting to somebody
when he didn't do anything wrong, and it's just now
he can just walk out those doors and you know,
he can go to fiesta, he can do this and
he doesn't have to live like that anymore. And so
(45:29):
it was I was so happy. I like prayed after.
I was like, thank god that happened. And obviously coach
that closing was incredible, So it was really awesome. I
was really happy. The law is about rules. I believe
in rules, but more important than rules, it is something
(45:49):
that is based on principles and values, and those are
values of equal justice and fairness of process and everything
about that. It's fascinating to you know. I began a
little bit the study of law when I was in
middle school and I read Inherit the Wind, which is
about the Scopes trial right the ability of a teacher
(46:10):
to teach about evolution in a school in Tennessee. And
I love the idea that it's also about truth, truth
finding and all the mechanisms that you use not only
to get justice and fairness for people, but so the
ultimate truth comes out. And I've always thought of it
as a noble pursuit. I say this to commencement audiences
all the time. There's a lot of power in a
(46:31):
legal degree. You know, individuals have power generally, they have
their voice, they can protest, they can run for office,
there's lots of things you can do, but I think
there has been an appreciation as our democracy, in my view,
has been under attack from a lot of different places
over the last number of years. That's not a bad
thing to have a law degree and have the privilege
of access to a court to redress grievances and equalize
(46:54):
the playing field for people who don't have access to justice.
I guess it's good for the learning curve part aspect
of it, right, Like, you know, we're learning a lot,
but it's really hard to balance full time student this week,
full time lawyer also, and it's really I think we
just we wear a lot of hats and it's hard.
(47:16):
Do you wear a white hat though I'm the only
one that wears away at um, we're actually the ones
that were the right h house. Shut up. I literally
my caption for you when you said that, Yeah, my
caption from bart don't think I forgot my caption from
my embarrass's picture is my white hat is bigger than
your white hat. Like if it's going to be someone, yeah,
like I wanted to be meet. Andy and Jasmine graduated
(47:39):
law school and have been studying for the bar exam
all summer long. Andy is now working for the d
a's office, and Jasmine continues to work with Jason Goss,
who knows they will likely face off again at trial
in the future. The St. Mary's team wrapped up its season.
It wasn't all disappointing one of A J's teams. One
first place that the national trial competition. I don't care
(48:11):
where they are today. I want to know where they
are two years from now when they leave. And I
get so much satisfaction when they graduate. When I'm sitting
there at graduation, I'm looking up at the stage and
I see them walk across. I remember the person that
walked in the first time. How's everybody done? Who did
not see the video on cross examination? Right, Raven? You
(48:35):
want to come up here and cross examine Addie, because
if I can make that connection with you today, I
can make you a lawyer tomorrow and then you're gonna
go out and you're gonna do good. From chapter one
case analysis, you've made some connection to how that works
with the rest of the case. Next on class action
(48:58):
for the first time, and it's history. The Diller team
goes to the National Championship. Welcome Afternoon, every one How
special is it to all be together again? Welcome to
nationals Okay, I'm gonna do it again. Welcome to the
(49:20):
in person National Championship in Port Room A representing the state.
The Yellow Jackets of Georgia Tech Team one thousand one. Hi,
I'm Survey. I'm from Georgia Tech. Gro Over there Go Jackets.
The Blue Devils of Dillard University Team twelve sixteen. Hello,
(49:45):
I'm Renee than Mean and my name is Amya Ronsic.
I'm the captain of the Dillard University Mocktole team in
New Orleans. And as we stay in New Orleans, le
bancon relate. Let the good times roll? How are you are?
Your rolling way? What? He? That's next? Time? On Class Action.
(50:06):
Last Action is a production of I Heart Radio and
Sound Argument. Created, produced, written, and edited by Kevin Huffman
and Lisa Gray. Additional story production by Jennifer Swan, Kristen Cabrera,
Jason Foster, and Wendy Nardi. Executive producers are Taylor Chacogne
(50:27):
and Katrina Norvelle. Sound design, editing and mixing by Evan
Tire and Taylor Chacogne. This episode had additional field production
by Kristen Cabrera. For more podcasts from I heart Radio,
visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you get your favorite shows.
Class Action is a production of I Heart Radio and
Sound Argument. M H. I think this is the cord
um So. I've been in some of these before, so
high So eleven is one of the courts. So like,
(00:25):
I'm a misdemeanor like intern, like for all of the
clerk for all of the courts. It's scary, like you're
walking into this big machine like this is like the machine,
like this is our justice machine, and it's really intimidating.
You don't know anyone. You know, you don't know what
your rule is going to be. You don't know how
they're going to use you. You Yeah, you just don't
(00:46):
know anything or anyone or like you know, are the
ad is intimidating? Are thing nice? Well? They like you
where they give you where you know, you don't know anything.
Um So the first day was like all about figuring
out all of that stuff as well as can I
leave for lunch? Where's the bathroom? Like yeah, it was
really really intimidating. Um So I have all of the
(01:06):
misdemeanor courts and so like it's like fourteen of them,
fifteen of them, so you know, um if one of
the ads is like, oh, we're going to trial, on
the stage and we come, I'll go to trial and
fourteen for all being like picturing with them or whatever.
So it's pretty cool, Okay. I think it's this way.
(01:45):
Rock to to seven five. The State of Texas versus
to Day is March thirty. Yesterday we has lending jury
swarming again and then then whether the rain. Less than
(02:07):
a month after their run to the National Championships stalled
at the one yard line, X teammates Andy Viscia and
Jasmine ole Gaene are about to face off in an
actual criminal trial at the Bear County Courthouse in San Antonio.
It's a misdemeanor case. Andy will be second chairing for
the d a's office and Jasmine will be in a
similar role with her defense firm, and to up the stakes,
(02:30):
the defense team's lead attorney is none other than Jason Goss,
their former coach from the St. Mary's Trial team. I'm
just really proud, you know. It's kind of like going
against a child, or's something where you know you're proud
of him, but you're also trying to beat him. Um,
and I do want to beat them because I think
it's justice for my client. It's I mean, it's so cool.
(02:52):
I mean, I just I want to be just like him.
It's it's crazy, it's so cool to see him. On
the other hand, I didn't know we're going to be
going in directly, had ahead, but you know, somewhat I was.
I was nervous. I couldn't you breakfast, I had to
drink tea. I wasn't I didn't crack a Celsius until
until later on in the day when I had calmed down.
And it's like, you stand and deliver, you don't care
(03:13):
who's on the other side. I'm feeling excited, for sure,
interested to see how the rest of this case plays out.
But as of now, I feel like my heart is
like kind of like in a little like a little
fire in my heart because of this. Because everything we've
been hearing and seeing, it's so like upsetting that we're
(03:37):
here trying this case and didn't. Even more bizarre twist,
Jason's wife and fellow trial team coach Maritza Steward, She's
going to supervise Andy during the trial. It's pretty amazing
thing to do because it's it's funny, it's what we've
been you know, we hope to see and we've always
said that that's one of our things that we're proud
(03:58):
of that any of our students can go you know,
if they worked with us and you know, committed to
the program, they learned the ideals at a j and
you know, Coach Goss and I, you know, try and teach.
So it's student versus student, student versus teacher, husband versus wife.
What more could you possibly want? This is episode eleven
(04:21):
of Class Action. First thing I would inquire is why
do you want to become a lawyer? Yes? Why do
(04:44):
you want to be a lawyer? The idea that I,
at twenty three years old, can walk into a courtroom
next year and run it front to back better than
some of these people that have been practicing for ten
twenty years. I'm like, that's insane to me. I like
(05:04):
the puzzle. You are given a set of facts and
you have to make those facts work with what your
client wants. And it doesn't matter if your client is
the state, it doesn't matter if your client is an actual,
living human being in front of you. They have something
that they want and your job as an attorney is
(05:27):
to make sure whatever given situation can work out for them.
You do become a different version of yourself, because no
one would want that in there every day. I wouldn't
have any friends. I've always kind of likened it to
My mom was an absolute maniac about our table manners
when we were growing up. But she wanted to make
(05:49):
sure that when I went to that nice dinner, I
exuded confidence because I knew that I could, I could
hang with the you know, with the big kids kind
of thing. It's the same way I know I know
what I'm doing, just as much as I know I'm
picking up the right fork for the right meal kind
of thing. That's future lawyers Hayley Nichols, Dylan Ramsdad Spoils
(06:10):
and Brooke Bomb Gardner and two seven a summary of
this case. In twenty nineteen, the San Antonio Police were
called to a scene at four am on the west
side of town, not far from the St. Mary's campus.
The complaint was coded as a disturbance neighbor gun involved.
(06:35):
For privacy, we're going to remove the names of the
persons in this case. Is he the one Yarlet's calling
on dy And? When Officer Garcia arrived on the scene,
(06:58):
she found a crowd gathered around victim who was lying
on the ground. Half in some bushes and half on
the sidewalk. Okay, did you just have a seizures? That's
what's what's going on. Or the victim we'll call him Boris,
was staring into space and had bumps and contusions on
(07:18):
his face. Okay, yeah, you may want to spit your
tooth out. No, you don't choke on it. And you
didn't see any of this, right, sir, I'm sorry you
didn't see any of this. Alright. This is Boris's husband.
He's also an eye witness, well sort of, but you
(07:38):
didn't see anything. I thought him beating him up. Okay,
who's who's them? So I bet the three guys, all
three of them, well, I saw all three of them coovery,
because it's all happened so fast that I was like
freaking out. Okay, all right, so have a good night.
Boris came around and told Officer Garcia that his neighbor,
(08:01):
a man will call Carlos, was sitting in his car
with a bunch of guys playing his stereo at high
volume at four o'clock in the morning music top blow.
It's completely can make sure that his off our whole neighborhood.
They do every day I understand why. Forest then told
Officer Garcia that he approached the car and knocked on
(08:24):
the window and the next thing, you know, he didn't
punching me. I was letting low and he was continuously
punching you do you know? Do you know which one?
And w do you want to come talk to me?
Lecture the third? This is Carlos's nephew who was in
(08:47):
the front passenger seat. So what's going on? What happened
all of a sudden? Yes, it's like, I mean, I
didn't think the music is still all. To be honest,
we had a fairly low because we at one point
he comes up to the chuck bops, okay, and then
that's what he pulled the gun. He's like, you needn't
(09:08):
turn it, Connor. What's the gun? He was? It was
romish kind of gun. I guess he pulled it out
from the sign. He's like, you turn the music down now,
blah blah blah. Okay, But you didn't really explain how
he ended up on the ground and everything. So how
did that? What did that happen? At? How we have
so nicely to leave him pushed him, you know, not
(09:29):
too hard though, just enough to get him off our property,
trying to push him back. Didn't by any chance did
did you hit him or anything like that? All right?
What about uncle? Right? What about her uncle him or
anything like that? All right, we're self defense. But but
I'm not going to deny that we didn't. Yes, yes
(09:53):
or no. I'm not gonna lie to you, guys. I
mean I did that. I didn't assault that ba I
don't want any trouble them. Yeah, fortunately tonight, buddy, it's
gonna have to go down like this. But uh, what
madis moils is what happens after this and hopefully are
never in handcuffs ever again. All Right, I didn't assaulting
tool at all? How do I prove like this? Or
(10:14):
you're spitting teeth out of his mouth, but look at
my hands. If you're spining teeth out of his mouth,
my hands would be cut. There's still cuts on my hands.
I'm just saying, yeah, we don't either, buddy. We're just
trying to do our job and I don't just trying
to have a good time on a Friday. I understand.
(10:35):
All right, Just sit tight or I'll turn on the
acing for you. I'm sorry. Carlos was ultimately charged with
assault with bodily injury. It should be pointed out here
that normally a misdemeanor case like this would almost never
make it to trial. But this is America, and if
you've been listening to this podcast all along, you know
(10:58):
we are all about half the constitutional right to a
fair hearing. Facing potential jail time, Carlos bonded out and
decided to seek defense counsel, and here he turned to
Jason Goss and Jasmine ole Gain to defend him at trial,
but this time against her former teammate. I know her responses.
(11:25):
I know the way she thinks. You know she knows
the way I think. Like we both have the same
little senses, like if we hear certain questions or responses,
like we're trained by the same coach, Like both of
our senses start like tingling or like okay, this, this
is this is this, and like with objections, like I
I know she's gonna object to and like what she's
feeling and stuff like that. So maybe like not advantage,
(11:48):
but like I know her and I think her coach
knows her too. The dynamic between counsel is interesting. Now
for some perspective on this whole becoming a lawyer thing.
Here's pre Barra. Counterintuitively, my experience has been that prosecutors
and defense lawyers are much more cordial and friendly. Some
(12:11):
become quite good friends. And part of the reason is
there's a lot of stake in a criminal case, and
the most professional defense lawyers and prosecutors, they're not taking
it as personally. You know, it's it's not personal. It's business.
To quote from the Godfather. Sometimes someone's a jerk, like
they're There are jerks in every profession, and there are
jerks at trial sometimes, and then you have to be
(12:33):
careful not to let your temper get the better of you,
and you treat everyone with respect in the court room
and certainly in front of the jury, because the don't
know what's gone on behind the scenes. Another peculiar question
arises for defense lawyers in criminal cases who may have
a long relationship with the prosecutors. They may have been colleagues.
You know, people become prosecutors defense lawyers to go back
(12:53):
and forth. That's the case with Jason Goss. He was
an assistant DA in this very courthouse for ten yours
before switching sides, so he's on very familiar ground here.
Back to the case at hand. A six member juries
and paneled and Judge Carlo Rodriguez Key is en robed.
I think if everyone's first trial could be this difficult
(13:17):
and uh, this convoluted um, and they could still get
through with everything else after, that's going to seem fairly easy.
So it's a great introduction into how tough things can be.
And here we are a trial which begs the question, well,
let's start with why do we need trials? Ashley Email
(13:38):
is a Texas lawyer who runs the National Trial Competition
and apparently she's also an amateur legal historian. So, for
those of you who don't know, trials before they were
in a courtroom were by duel and if you died,
you were the one lying. That's how that was decided. Um.
So then we got to trials, and maybe that was
(13:59):
a little more fair, maybe not. Maybe it was just
one person shouting this is what happened, and a judge
that I believe you. And so then we got rules
of evidence, and this is how we sort of make
sure that our trial system is working the way that
it should. Obviously it is not perfect. I don't think
any person would ever try to tell you that the
(14:21):
our justice system is perfect, but I think it's the
best system we've got for trying to make sure that
anybody accused of something has a fair shot for defending
themselves with a lawyer who knows how this system works,
I'm not shaking my boots. Can I win? Probably no,
Probably not on my first one. If I'll be honest,
(14:42):
i'd be. I'd be very shocked, which just sucks, because
I do believe this was an assault. I can't it alone,
and it'd be it'd be thinking very high with myself
to think that I would be able to do this
on my first try. When you're working a real trial,
it becomes your life for many months, sometimes for a
(15:02):
year or more. From the moment you charge a case,
or even from the moment you start investigating a case,
there's always a little voice in the back of your
head thinking how is this going to play at trial?
What am I gonna do at trial? And then when
you're actually on trial those two weeks or six weeks
or four months or whatever it may be, you I
didn't eat, I didn't sleep. I used to lose pounds
(15:23):
when I was on trial. I don't have that much
to lose. Um it was incredibly stressful and difficult. And
then at the end um cathartic. This is Elijenig, former
prosecutor in New York Southern District and a legal analyst
at CNN. He knows that when a prosecutor like Andy
has handed a brief, she'll have a lot of questions.
(15:44):
So two things about about that. First of all, prosecutors
rely on what we call an order of proof, and
it's basically like not quite a script, but it's just
a listing of all your pieces of evidence from exhibit
one through exhibit four teen hundred um. And you learned
to use that as an outline and a guide to
(16:04):
your case. But I want to say this about evidence.
There's a misnomer out there, or misperception that more is better. Oh,
a mountain of evidence that phrase right. Oh, Look, they
have huge amounts of evidence that can really backfire. It's
not about quantity of evidence, it's about quality of evidence.
I learned that the hard way. There was really two
different approaches to evidence. We used to say at the
(16:26):
Southern District. There was the kitchen sinkers, the people who
wanted to throw in everything they had, and then there
was the thin two winners, which I became the first
mob trial I ever did. I was the junior person
of three on the case, and the guys who ran
it were kitchen sinkers. And we did this trial that
took two months, and we had hundreds and hundreds of exhibits.
We played the jury I think ninety or ninety five
(16:46):
different recordings that we had a cooperator who had made
and that case ended up going bad. We had a
couple of the defendants were acquitted. We had a couple
of defendants where the jury hung, so we got to
retry those two defendants where the jury long A year
or so later, by this point I was leading it.
We said, okay, we're cutting out all the fluff. We're
going with our strongest evidence. We went from recordings down
(17:09):
to twelve. We got that. Instead of a two month trial,
we did it in a week and a half. For
two weeks jury came back convicted. Like that. For this trial,
it seems like Jason Goss is more of a kitchen sinker.
He's dug up all sorts of apparent shenanigans on the
part of the d a's office. First off, the nine
on one tape was destroyed by the d a's Office,
(17:31):
unclear why. In second, the victim, Boris, was previously convicted
on a domestic violence charge involving his husband. That conviction
was later overturned and the records were destroyed by the
d a's office, which Jason argues is tantamount to a
Brady violation, essentially accusing the state of withholding exculpatory evidence
(17:53):
from the defense. And for us, we believe that this
guy has been railroaded all the way through and we
want the jury to see that at the end. Since
I wasn't at the trial, I do hesitate to characterize
this as a smoke screen, but I can imagine this
is going directly over the heads of the young prosecution team.
The one thing that's always looking forward to on the
fens is like, this is the kind of stuff I
(18:15):
try to get into. When I was a prosecutor, the
judge went always protect the defendant and say no, no, no,
be kicking. But in this case, you know, I feel
like I'm not you know what I'm getting. You don't
keep that damn what the prosecution thinks about you or
even the judge. Tony Sarah has seen it all before.
(18:35):
He's eighty seven, a West Coast trial legend and stalwart
defense attorney. I just finished a murder trial in Janose.
It took about three months. Came back satisfactory that I
got a trial separate November seventh. It's another attempted murder
on a police officers life. So I do controversial cases,
(18:59):
and I um defend people who ordinarily are overlooked or
marginalized in the legal system. I've been fighting, you know, racism.
I've been fighting what would call over zelvous prosecutions all
of my career. So I tell the young lawyers, it's
(19:21):
a fabulous calling, but you have to regard it as
a calling. It's a fabulous mission that you're going to
embark on, but you have to regard it as a mission.
If you regard it as a job and that you're
going to serve the interest mostly of corporations, then you're
(19:45):
feeding into the status quo. Uh you say, knocked his team,
(20:08):
not to I'm conscious and I'm here just siding that not.
The golpening statements are among the most important parts of
a trial. It's your first impression on the jury, so
you need to begin with credibility. I was really fortunate.
(20:28):
When I was starting out in the office of the
Federal Public Defender in l A. This is noted defense
attorney Laura Basilon, who runs a law clinic for racial
justice in San Francisco. I had a supervisor. He said,
those eleven seconds, you'll never get them back. And he
also said that a lot of lawyers really don't do
opening statement justice. That they stand up and say an
(20:49):
opening statement, these are the elements of the offense. These
are how I'm going to prove the elements of the offense.
And the jury goes to sleep. But if you stand
up and you have one sentence that crystallizes your case,
and you're saying it in this passionate way, then all
of a sudden, you have twelve pairs of eyes that
are focused on you. There is and so I want
to talk to you about what actually happened, and what
(21:10):
the evidence is going to prove happening, and how the
world on September seven nine team turned upside down because
the one thing that she did. You've got to take
over the court. You've got to dominate. Your personality has
to be the strongest, Your contact with the jury has
to be, you know, formidable. Andy gets a shot at
(21:34):
doing the first direct examination of a witness for us
his husband, right, but true to life, the guy has
a hearing problem and the microphones in the courtroom aren't working,
and well it's a modern day trial by fire trying
(21:56):
to have a bit of hearing problems and just for everyone,
wait to see that one. Alright up, can you hear?
Just watch? Sorry, it's a real jury. Um. I think
it's similar in a lot of ways, but it's also
(22:16):
I mean it's different in a lot of ways. Um.
You know, I have to remember little things that I
wouldn't have to remember in mock right, Like I'm making
out contact with all of them. Are you following me?
How do I look to them? One of the hardest
things to do, particularly early on, is keep the poker face.
There's nothing more important than the poker face. Jurors are
(22:38):
looking at the lawyers at their tables and going back
and forth, often from the person on the witness stand
to the lawyer at the table, to see if they're
reacting poorly something. We don't have a guestion both her
and I question him close to him, and we can
discuestion the jury and see how kind of like that
idea that you want to right. So a jura might
(23:01):
hear a witness say something like, oh, that sounds like
it's harmful to the prosecution, and look and see did
the prosecution flinch? Are they passing notes because they might
not know because they haven't connected all the things together.
You know the case better than any juror will ever
know the case. Good. Would you again to the members
of the jury, would you introduce yourself? And then to
(23:22):
the members of the jury okay, okay, and whole shape
speer voice, would you please introduce yourself again to the
members of the jury. I tend to have a lot
of emotional reactions that show themselves in my face, and
(23:43):
so I've had to train myself to to not to
not do that. And I think the other thing I've
had to do is look less stern, because unfortunately, that
kind of expression, particularly in women, is off putting. It's funny.
I've always been told by my supervisors that you need
(24:03):
to smile more, Laura, and I'm like, there's nothing to
smile about here. This is a very high stakes, very
grim situation. The walls are weeping carrying out perfect all right,
Would you introduce yourself more time. It's not a smiley faced,
cheerleading time. At the same time, I do think there
(24:25):
are occasional moments of levity and that it's good to
look like someone who people can in some way relate to. Uh,
did you see him at you know, appressively punched the car,
was doing anything aggressive that you could see for your porch? Okay?
And then you said that you saw him leave right
(24:47):
when he left, and do you know what we want
just after people? Okay, didn't look like from where you
were standing, did it look like he was trying to
trust us onto your property. Well, like you're trying to
bring me to their home side in their house. Okay,
(25:08):
so we know someone window, that's what you see? After that?
What do you see? Ah, I'll do that. I've done
many trials in front of fake treat But so it's
just kind of it's a weird duality that exists right now.
And so I'm you know, I'm not trying to make
excuses for myself, and I don't want to ever do
(25:28):
that to her, because she's right, I do know better.
But at the same time, I'm I'm still learning and
I'll continue to be keep learning. So I just taking
everything that's stride. At any point, did you see your
husband pull a gun? Did you see a gun at
all that night? Extreme me and I I'm talking to gun.
(25:49):
I've always been god. You know I've never allowed okay,
but you know you're aware that your husband does own
a gun. Yeah, Christian, okay, So let me get it right.
(26:11):
Turn the music down. Started walking to the dog. They
rolled up the window. They started blasting the music. He
finished along with the dog. He brought the dog inside,
went back over to them and told him turn the
music down. A good defense attorney like Jason Goss, he's
(26:32):
going to pick apart a fuzzy head of witness like
this while on cross that's what you testify that based
on what you saw. There's no reason to call the
cops on you based upon what you could see that
and you don't want him to go to jail. Your husband,
(26:56):
that one. He's obviously he's this group of people is
said he would agree with that. I don't know, there's
no question. Obviously they're upset. He said that they're yelling
at this ring. I've been confrontational all my life. I
have a dear friend that it was in college All
(27:19):
American Football for Oklahoma. And when I have done cases
with him, and it's as if if he doesn't get
the answer he wants, he's gonna walk up and slug
it with his fists. And he would just stand up
there like he had a stick in his hand, you know,
or some kind of a baseball bat, and he was
(27:40):
be slugging this witness. If he didn't tell the truth that,
I was going, Oh boy, that's guy's good. I want
to be like that. First asked you, she said you
didn't see him. Then she said no, I saw nothing.
You heard yourself say that, yes, And you also said
I was in bed and I heard my dogs running.
(28:03):
That's what you said at the police office. You testified
to the jury that you were in your office, but
you told the officer you were in bed. Okay, scare
him into telling the truth, you know, confront them, shake
your finger in their face when you think you're lying.
(28:26):
In every single jury trial, there will be something to
go after that is untrue coming from the prosecution. Their
witnesses frequently are tainted. You know, they have a history.
They have been impeaqued so many times. So what I
(28:46):
tell young lawyers, just the most important thing about being
a trawler. You gotta know everything. You've got to read
every bit of discovery. If your mind isn't good enough
to retain in it and try another profession. So you
cannot even tell us right now that your memory of
(29:08):
something five minutes after it happened was better than your
memory of something too and a half Africa of his
ability and all sustaining as events. Thanks for us, well,
you said, I'm just feeling I don't know, I'm it's weird.
(29:32):
I'm feeling like my skills were good, but I there's
a lot of things to this case, and I think substantively,
I think I'm beating feeling a little defeated, um, just
because I mean, you really, you know, we we pre
trialed our witnesses, you know, and you really never know
(29:53):
what they're going to act like on the stand, and
you can tell them a million times like this is
what you need to do, you know, just yes or no,
Just answer my questions yes or no and cross, you know,
and you never know how they're going to react. I mean,
and it was and you can now I see the
practicality of it that it's like it'll blow up your case.
You said, you do not remember seeing the police at all,
(30:16):
not at all when seeing yourself on their body ever,
seeking the help the refreshmtory about what you said that
you know, he walks around this place and throughout the
day like all of these little prosecutors were coming into
trial and they weren't coming in to see us. They're
coming in and see him because you know how kid
he is. So I mean it just, I mean, it's
(30:37):
so cool and obviously it would be so much cooler
if he wasn't on the other side, can quank you
to see my own work, just to say your day? Okay, um,
(31:04):
I'm saying okay, and how are we gonna do that?
A little little later on in the day, patrol Officer
Garcia is called to the stand. In their questioning prosecutors
Andy and Cassidy are courteous and respectful of law enforcement. Okay,
so when you were violency, he had give us free
(31:26):
description of what was going on. Yes, So once I
went unseen, basically I saw a small crowd of people
over a male on the ground. Um. So obviously as
an officer and wind intent. They wrap up Officer Garcia's
testimony pretty quickly, but then Jason Goss comes back to
(31:46):
his objection about the immissibility of Boris's criminal background and
his husband's history of lying to the police. Officer Garcia
steps down from the stand. The jury is excused and
Gass and the judge argued case law and legal precedent
for an hour. People idea that this witnesses. The VAS
(32:09):
office believed that this witness did not solve and didn't
call this person as a witness, and they drone on
and on and on, and then the day is done.
Round one goes to the defense. Um, we baked out
of the courtroom and I was like, I feel like
you ever feel like you've been in a boxing match
(32:31):
with the person that taught you how to box? It's
like not, yeah, I mean it's a lot. You know,
you want to decompress and you're like, okay, but there's
still a really long way to go in this trial,
which is crazy because it's a missing mirror. I don't
know it's a missed me now, but it is. You know,
I really don't know what I envisioned myself as in
being a lawyer, because with my last two summers of working,
(32:55):
it's just you're constantly changing on how you approach things,
and so I don't really think I don't know who
I am as a lawyer for maybe ten years into practice.
It takes ten years to be comfortable doing what you're doing.
But I would like to be my goal of what
i'd like to be an a lawyer, someone who is
um very patient, because it does take a lot of
(33:17):
patients and time to work with people. In general, I think,
no matter what career you go into, and I would
like to base someone who has answers. I want to
be a lawyer where someone's comfortable saying, we know we
can go to Bailey. She's going to solve whatever issue
I have. So that's that's my goal. So what's happening
now in DA's offices, especially Brooklyn, is it's not just
(33:40):
what happens with a perpetrator in a case is not
solely dependent on the charges they're facing or the victims
preference in what happens. If we also have to take
into account what will help the defendant, how can we
prevent this from happening again? What will do justice for
the defendant the victim while keeping public safety in mind.
(34:04):
I do work for prisoners legal Services as my externship.
It'll be going on three semesters now, and my clients
have committed very egregious crimes there So, in a sense,
you know, I am, I am making the choice to
advocate for someone who has committed murder, who has committed rape,
and who has made the choice to do something consciously
(34:27):
that is quite a terrible offense. But in that case,
their constitutional rights have still been violated. And so I
do believe that although this person has made a decision,
that doesn't negate the government's responsibility to grant them their
constitutional rights. That was Bailey more It, Phoebe Medicare and
(34:49):
Ellie Sands. The next day, Officer Garcia has to wait
another hour while the defense continues to argue about the
old conviction. The judge has had enough and resolves the
issue and puts it on the record for any future appeal. Okayna. Finally,
(35:24):
Officer Garcia is recalled to the stand for her cross examination,
and she'll sit in that witness chair for the next
four hours while her every move and motivation will be
picked apart by Jason Goss. I understand, I watch. What
we're really trying to point out is there's a difference
(35:45):
between what I hear what actually had and you have
training about how to deal with people who have done?
Have you been when you went to the police, had
me Otherwise? What would you agree with your investigation solely
(36:09):
focused on, maybe owing to their inexperience or simple exhaustion.
The prosecution had very few objections. I think most people
would agree with me that you don't back down from
a case. If I if when you're a prosecutor, I
would think when I'm a prosecutor that I have a
(36:30):
case that I really believe in and that I want
to bring to trial. Um, I don't think i'd back
down just because I you know, counsels big and scary
and so good, right, which is why you know, we
were like, wow, this is weird, but it's really cool
seenior coach, Like he really is such an icon for
us because his presence, the way he gets things out.
(36:53):
I don't know, I'm just really happy to be here
and just everything he's been saying, it's like my heart,
like little Brady thing. I was like, heart, heart, Heart,
Is there one good words? Farmer? When we introduce yourself
(37:19):
remembers the drum. I wanted the jury to get to
know you little bit. So where do you live? How
long have you lived there? Um? Fifty years except for
a couple of years when I went off to the college.
On day three, Jasmine, who had been sitting quietly taking
(37:41):
notes and strategizing with Jason, she gets her chance to
do a short direct of a key witness for the defense.
Have you ever had a problem with the playing any
music since I moved in? Have you been able to
interact with them? Yes? Have you been able to see
(38:05):
their interactions with other neibors? Have you been able to
see them interact with each other? Yes? In these five years?
Do you have enough experience to be able to form
an opinion on so? Do you have an opinion on
(38:26):
the character for violence? I believe he's problems of violence.
Do you have an opinion on character for untruthfulness? I
don't believe him to be trustworthy Because we have some Yes,
And just like that, the case for the prosecution is
(38:49):
on the rocks and Jason Goss is on deck. Yesterday, Um,
we're having a lot of technical issues. I was really
late and I told coach Coach I could finish this
if you want to go work on your clothes, and
he said no, I don't have to work on anything.
I was like, I hate myself. I would I tell him.
But you guys here they're bourboning. Proved is beyond the
(39:10):
reasonable doubt. And it's not just beyond the reasonable doubt
that assault caused, or or hid or push or shove
or rolled in the bushes, because you can believe all
of that beyond the reasonable down. But they still have
to prove to you beyond the reasonable doubt that it's
not self defense. And remember this is not serious. Bodily
(39:32):
injury is bodily injury. They are entitled to do bodily
injury that is forced. The judges ready the law. They're
entitled to use force to prevent trespass, entitled to punch
somebody in the face. They're entitled to throw them on
the ground. They're entitled to push them. They're entitled to
do whatever. It's safe to say that Andy was tapping
her feet the whole time, just itching to get in there,
(39:54):
and finally she gets her big chance to do a closing.
I'm gonna tell you that the world didn't flipped on
that day for this one. I just didn't. The world
kept turning just like it always does, right, side up.
The way always has the way it always well. See
(40:16):
people fight. They knock each other out. I know you
know this. And sometimes they have good reason. Sometimes they
have reason. Sometimes they have no reason at all. Sometimes
people knock each other out getting fights just because they
can't because they're the bigger guy. Sum made in your
(40:39):
small excided about the way you looked at me and
like we you spoke to me. I didn't write that
you came over here at four in the morning and
told me to turn the music down. I can do
whatever I want. She even pulls out the old St.
Mary's chestnut, the salute to the American flag. It's like
(41:00):
when you look behind the judge at that flag that's resting, unfoladable,
and you can't see all the stars and you can't
see all the stripes, you still know, right beyond reasonable doubt,
you know what that is. You know that that's flat
in the United States of America, or the laws that
we have are meant to keep people safe, or the
(41:22):
laws that we have we're meant to keep our community safe.
Were the laws that we have tried tried their best
never to condone. Pilots always try to say violence is
not the answer. You, the jury, have the power to
the side on the facts of this case. You the jury,
(41:45):
and the power to decide whether you're going to allow
the Vilens to be the answer and her commannity, whether
it's okay if you don't like custone talks to you,
if you don't like how they look at you. But
you cannot go. She fought, and you cannot go all
(42:07):
because he can find the defendant. She fought, and she fought,
and she fought. And I knew this day would come
where I would see her in trial one day, and
I didn't know fresh off of that last loss, which
I know she took a lot, really hard because she
didn't get to get in the game. And I told
(42:28):
her that something big is going to happen soon. And
I don't know if she ever would realize how how
big this is because she's just being antie. It all
came together, It culminated all together, everything that we've practiced, played,
prayed everything for for her. I saw it in that moment,
and seeing her argue against him and not back down,
(42:49):
it makes me feel so proud. I'm not her mother,
I'm not her sister, but I just I feel like
she's family, and just like when even when I saw
Jasmine asking questions, like you just see these babies and
they come through and you're just like, you know, I
wonder you know, I know they're good people, and I
just I hope they continue on and work on their skills.
And she did that. I mean, she she killed it.
(43:10):
So I mean, I just I don't know. It was
an amazing feeling and I just couldn't have them that smile.
Tiarra cried, yes, alright, well you can jury find the defendent.
Jo alright, jury service than wow, wow trial every artist
(43:40):
trial I've ever done, the most law I've ever seen,
h so, the best work I've ever seen. UM, So
I hope you can appreciate what you saw here today.
The verdict was not guilty. Um. The jury did come
back pretty quick, so I think I don't know anything
(44:02):
that my first time, but I was like, can that
be good um for the state at least, like I said, like, justices,
whatever an impartial durve of your peers says, it is um,
And I think that's the beauty of it. And I
think I just feel really grateful that I've gotten this
training that allows you to see both sides of the
(44:23):
coin and allows you to see that just like there
can be bad people on both sides, there can be
really great people on both sides, um, and there can
be people that are you know, fighting for the community,
and hey, like, are we going to say that this
is right? Like are we going to just like go
around letting people just punch each other just you know,
because you can because you're mad or even if you
have a reason, all right, you relax regardless. I think
(44:46):
that that is what justices. And you know, I mean
this time it wasn't it. This time they said it
was okay. Um, But that's the beauty of it. So
you know, onto the next I got kind of choked up,
like I wanted to cry, but I was just so happy.
Like you heard, you know, the client's wife like gas
and started crying and you could I could see him
(45:06):
physically start getting emotional. And but it was like such
a joy because it wasn't injustice to him. And he's
for two years he's had to be reporting to somebody
when he didn't do anything wrong, and it's just now
he can just walk out those doors and you know,
he can go to fiesta, he can do this and
he doesn't have to live like that anymore. And so
(45:29):
it was I was so happy. I like prayed after.
I was like, thank god that happened. And obviously coach
that closing was incredible, So it was really awesome. I
was really happy. The law is about rules. I believe
in rules, but more important than rules, it is something
(45:49):
that is based on principles and values, and those are
values of equal justice and fairness of process and everything
about that. It's fascinating to you know. I began a
little bit the study of law when I was in
middle school and I read Inherit the Wind, which is
about the Scopes trial right the ability of a teacher
(46:10):
to teach about evolution in a school in Tennessee. And
I love the idea that it's also about truth, truth
finding and all the mechanisms that you use not only
to get justice and fairness for people, but so the
ultimate truth comes out. And I've always thought of it
as a noble pursuit. I say this to commencement audiences
all the time. There's a lot of power in a
(46:31):
legal degree. You know, individuals have power generally, they have
their voice, they can protest, they can run for office,
there's lots of things you can do, but I think
there has been an appreciation as our democracy, in my view,
has been under attack from a lot of different places
over the last number of years. That's not a bad
thing to have a law degree and have the privilege
of access to a court to redress grievances and equalize
(46:54):
the playing field for people who don't have access to justice.
I guess it's good for the learning curve part aspect
of it, right, Like, you know, we're learning a lot,
but it's really hard to balance full time student this week,
full time lawyer also, and it's really I think we
just we wear a lot of hats and it's hard.
(47:16):
Do you wear a white hat though I'm the only
one that wears away at um, we're actually the ones
that were the right h house. Shut up. I literally
my caption for you when you said that, Yeah, my
caption from bart don't think I forgot my caption from
my embarrass's picture is my white hat is bigger than
your white hat. Like if it's going to be someone, yeah,
like I wanted to be meet. Andy and Jasmine graduated
(47:39):
law school and have been studying for the bar exam
all summer long. Andy is now working for the d
a's office, and Jasmine continues to work with Jason Goss,
who knows they will likely face off again at trial
in the future. The St. Mary's team wrapped up its season.
It wasn't all disappointing one of A J's teams. One
first place that the national trial competition. I don't care
(48:11):
where they are today. I want to know where they
are two years from now when they leave. And I
get so much satisfaction when they graduate. When I'm sitting
there at graduation, I'm looking up at the stage and
I see them walk across. I remember the person that
walked in the first time. How's everybody done? Who did
not see the video on cross examination? Right, Raven? You
(48:35):
want to come up here and cross examine Addie, because
if I can make that connection with you today, I
can make you a lawyer tomorrow and then you're gonna
go out and you're gonna do good. From chapter one
case analysis, you've made some connection to how that works
with the rest of the case. Next on class action
(48:58):
for the first time, and it's history. The Diller team
goes to the National Championship. Welcome Afternoon, every one How
special is it to all be together again? Welcome to
nationals Okay, I'm gonna do it again. Welcome to the
(49:20):
in person National Championship in Port Room A representing the state.
The Yellow Jackets of Georgia Tech Team one thousand one. Hi,
I'm Survey. I'm from Georgia Tech. Gro Over there Go Jackets.
The Blue Devils of Dillard University Team twelve sixteen. Hello,
(49:45):
I'm Renee than Mean and my name is Amya Ronsic.
I'm the captain of the Dillard University Mocktole team in
New Orleans. And as we stay in New Orleans, le
bancon relate. Let the good times roll? How are you are?
Your rolling way? What? He? That's next? Time? On Class Action.
(50:06):
Last Action is a production of I Heart Radio and
Sound Argument. Created, produced, written, and edited by Kevin Huffman
and Lisa Gray. Additional story production by Jennifer Swan, Kristen Cabrera,
Jason Foster, and Wendy Nardi. Executive producers are Taylor Chacogne
(50:27):
and Katrina Norvelle. Sound design, editing and mixing by Evan
Tire and Taylor Chacogne. This episode had additional field production
by Kristen Cabrera. For more podcasts from I heart Radio,
visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you get your favorite shows.
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