July 5, 2022 • 60 mins
Anjani Shah and Ellie Sands lead an all-female team from Brooklyn Law against an all-male team from Harvard University at the annual MLK National Civil Rights Competition. It’s an epic battle for an important cause. Anjani's immigrant parents watch the trial online, and her dad teaches us how to make a proper cup of chai. Back on campus, Ellie appeals to President Biden for clemency on behalf of her endangered client.
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Fordham University School of Law
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Class Action is a production of I Heart Radio and
Sound Argument. I'm definitely having dreams about this trial, having
dreams that I'm like in court, like full on trial,
getting objected to, objecting myself, and it's actually, you know,
encompassing every part of my life now. I can't even
(00:25):
get a good, nice rest without dreaming about trial. It
took a nap the other day and I had a
dream that RBG came into my dream. I was in
court and she was getting mad at me that I
wasn't objecting. Love. It's scary living Jesus out of me.
I was literally in court and opposing counsel was just
(00:49):
you know, giving their director cross and she's one of
the judges, and she's just like looking at me like
why aren't you objecting? This is objectionable object And I'm
just like, don't know how to object, I don't know
what to say. Oh my god, I'm losing my mind.
And she's just like getting annoyed with me. That would
just made me really sad. I was like, I can't.
That's just the worst things in life, letting her down
(01:09):
like that. She's one of my idols, being a woman
in the legal profession. It's not easy, and I hope
things will change, and honestly, sometimes I have to be like,
just take a deep breath. You can do it, because
she has a little insecure and I think she came
into my dream and it was like smacking that out
(01:30):
of my mind. I am, as you know from my
responses to your questionnaire. A Brooklyn Knight born in britt
A first generation American on my father's side, barely second
generation on my mother's. Neither of my parents had the
(01:53):
means to attend college, but both taught me to love learning,
to care about people, and to work hard for whatever
I wanted or believed in. Their parents had the foresight
(02:15):
to leave the Old Country when Jewish ancestry and faith
meant exposure to put RUMs and denigration of one's human worth.
What has become of me could happen only in America.
(02:36):
Like so many others, I owe so much to the
entry this nation afforded two people yearning to breathe free.
(02:56):
In October, Broken Law School sent an all female team
of second year law students to the Martin Luther King
Civil Rights Competition, held virtually from the University of California Davis.
The team is coached by third year students. They argue
their case four different times in one weekend against some
(03:18):
of the top rising legal talent in the country. Then
we saw Harvard, So we're all kind of just completely
silent on the edge of our seats. We did notice
that it was an all male team against an all
female team. For these young idealists, the mock trial was
(03:39):
a chance to see how their arguments could play out
in the real world of American law. So you referred
to homelessness as a cancer, and you referred to homelessness
as causing the decay of America. Yes, it's Closingay, that's correct.
Where justice can be scarce and litigation is often a
bare knuckled brawl. I'm Katie Fang. Welcome back to class action. Okay,
(04:16):
everyone ready for the scrummage? Yeah, Samantha, you're ready. I'm
just kidding my time. Hang. Okay, Well here, let's just
let's go with Bree Child. Start with great drop. You're
listening to episode six, Civil Rights and how to make
a cup of chi Running your Honor. We begin to
(04:39):
plaintiff has some passkeeping matters to attend to. Okay, well,
let's start with um introductions. I was born and raised
in New York City, and I went to public school
my whole life. My name is Ellie Sands. I'm a
second year law student at Brooklyn Law School. My full
name is Aliana, but I go by l A. After college,
(05:03):
I came back to New York and I was a
teacher in East Harlem. Just teaching at a school forty
blocks north of where I went to high school felt
like I was in a third world country. There were
things going on outside the school, like gang violence. There
were things going on in my students Famili's incarceration that
were severely impacting their ability to learn and perform in
(05:26):
the school environment that was being ignored and was being
disciplined harshly. I knew that it wasn't right. I ended
up coming to law school because I couldn't make the
kind of impact I wanted to without a lot of
great without being able to sit in the courtroom and
advocate on behalf of the clients that I was working with.
(05:49):
And I specifically wanted to do a civil rights competition
because that's the type of law I want to practice
once I graduate. Good afternoon. My name is Stubi Manicer,
and I also represent the defendant Travis Gordon in today's case.
My grandmother was a social worker for survivors of domestic violence.
(06:11):
Between her impact that she's had on me and my
general interest, that's brought me to the victim advocacy throughoute
UM working for a Court Room Advocates project where survivors
of domestic violence reach out to us and we walked
them through the process of filing for their petition for
an order of protection and family court. And then this
summer I was an intern in the Domestic Violence Bureau
(06:33):
at the Brooklyn DA's office, working with misdemeanors. I think
the way people enter the system through domestic violence is
interesting because it's not their choice. I find having connection
with a victim and having their perspective is so important
in doing justice. Good morning, your honor. My name is
(06:57):
Catherine Boyko, and I, along with my co counselor, present
the defendant Travis Gorton in today's case. I was born
in Brooklyn, New York. My parents were born in Ukraine
and my mom was a lawyer back in Ukraine. My
mom had to leave her home country to make sure
I had a better life, so it was really important
(07:19):
for me to carry on those dreams, carry on that ambition.
It's important to me personally because I see that you
know from personal work experience that there are so many
things that are just not right with the criminal justice
system that I don't want to be overly ambitious and
say that I'm going to be the person that fixes
(07:40):
all of it, but I definitely want to play a
part in that, to do what I can to make
things better for other people, defend people who can't really
stand up for themselves. Good afternoon, counselors. My name is
Antony Shawn. I represent the plaintiff, Miss Raley Taylor today.
This is the first time I've ever done this. There
(08:02):
are challenges. They're really just associated with, I think, overcoming
your own discomfort and your own vulnerabilities and attacking those
head on. For example, I think I am a very
non adversarial person, and obviously in a courtroom setting, it's
an adversarial setting, so you do have people who are
(08:22):
opposing counsel who are trying to potentially rile you up
or potentially trying to make frivolous objections just to throw
you off, and so dealing with that sort of discomfort
has been challenging, but it's also something to confront before
you actually get into a courtroom one day. Aeny is
the plaintiff defense Atene is the defense. A and Nelly
(08:48):
have spent most of their law school years on Zoom,
so it's only natural that they would be excited about
being in court and in person. So right now we're
in the Brooklyn Law School court room. So basically what
it looks like. There is a jury box, there is
a witness stand, there's a place where the judge sits um,
(09:10):
and there is a giant audience. Portion of this room
takes that most of the room. The party with the
burden of proof sits closest to the jury, So the
plaintiff or the prosecution sits closest to the jury. So
the plaintiff would sit here and then the defense would
sit at the table farthest from the jury box. They've
(09:31):
got to feel out the jury more. They've got the burden,
and so I think the person with the burden really
has to convince the jury. It's better to be in
close proximity because the closer you are to the jury,
the more likely they are to see that council tables reactions,
you know they're more likely to hear what they have
to say. And the point of a direct examination is
(09:53):
that you want the jury to be paying attention to
the witness. You don't want the jury to be looking
at you. You are not the star of the show.
Your witnesses the star of the show. Whereas on cross examination,
so I'll be doing cross of this witness if Ellie
is actually directing. So I stand here because I want
(10:13):
the jury to see me and my reactions, and you,
as the witness, are now looking at me and not them,
So that actually has quite an effect on the jury
as well, when you're diverting your eyes away from them.
I'm the closer. So the difference between opening and closing
is that in closing you are reviewing all of the
(10:34):
evidence that you brought in during your case in chief,
so it's less scripted and more a summary of everything
that came out during trial, a lot of which can
be unpredictable, some of which could be good for your side,
some of which could be bad for your side. So
you have to be agile and sort of improvise some
of what comes out in the closing. You also have
(10:56):
to flip the other side's theme that means that you
want to turn the other side argument against them. So
right now we're really ramping up for competition. It's less
than a week away, or about actually a week away.
It's a very intimidating process to present a case. You know,
(11:18):
as law students were so unfamiliar with this and over
zoom it's a whole other challenge. My name is Jane Dowling.
I am the coach of the U. C. Davis Martin
Luther King Civil Rights Competition. Confidence is really key. We're
not really making like substantive changes at this point. It's
just sort of running through the material, practicing, honing in
(11:41):
on some details, getting pumped up. Of course, we're law students.
We all have strong personalities. Like you don't come to
law school if if you don't have a strong volitions
and strong opinions. Brooklyn Law was founded in nine one
to serve working people, women, ethnic minority these and immigrants.
(12:01):
The school is across German Street from the Justice Ruth
Bader Ginsburg Municipal Building, on a stretch of pavement now
named Black Lives Matter Boulevard. German Street runs down to
the East River, an area that once held molasses and
sugar refineries, both industries that were rooted in America's slave
(12:22):
owning past. The young advocates on the Brooklyn Law Team
keep that history in mind as they pack up their
laptops and coffee and they fight through traffic to school
every day. The building faces Cabin Plaza Park, just blocks
away from the Brooklyn Bridge. In the last few years,
Cabin Plaza has become the epicenter of many of Brooklyn's
(12:47):
most heated protests. My name is Stacy Kaplow, and I'm
(13:08):
a professor of Blood Brooklyn Law School, the very progressive
and liberal student body here in New York. I'm also
the associate dean for experiential Education at the law School.
It's what's called a standalone school. In other words, were
not part of a larger university. So as a school,
we have a lot of independence and kind of nimble
(13:32):
in terms of what we can and kind of do.
Because we're located in the heart of New York, we
have access to all sorts of resources within what is
clearly the largest legal community in the world. So our
students are out there all the time working, as well
as obviously going to school and learning how to become lawyers.
(13:54):
The Brooklyn team has worked on arguments for both sides
of the problem for the King competition, and they have
to picture what could possibly come at them. Whether they're
representing the plaintiff or the defense, they have to be
ready for anything. An overview of this case is that
an executive order was put into place by the governor
(14:16):
of a made up state called the State of Columbia.
This executive order implemented what is called a shelter station,
which is supposed to take homeless individuals off of the
street and help give them a place to stay, food
to eat, a roof over their head. The plaintiff is
(14:36):
bringing an a commendment prol and unusual constitutional violation against
the defendant. Firstly, a homeless person is taken to shelter
station against their will. It's a detention center for which
they do not know how long they will be detained for.
A homeless person must complete classes in English and math,
(14:59):
they must several hygiene requirements, they have to engage in
a job while they're at the shelter station. And lastly,
and perhaps most burdensome, and they have to prove that
they have permanent housing before they're released. But they're unable
to save up money while they're at the shelter station.
(15:20):
The competition is the Martin Luther King Civil Rights Trial
Practice Competition. You See Davis School of Law has been
hosting that now for the last four years. I'm Dennis Coda.
I supervised the trial practice program at you see Davis
King Hall. I am a magistrate judge for the Eastern
(15:45):
District of California. There's a new option to help get
dozens of people off the streets of Sacramento. This is
the city's newest homeless shelter. Up to one people will
begin staying here next week. The X Straight Navigation Shelter
is near Broadway at Alhambra. It is more than just
a place to sleep, though. There's also life skills classes,
(16:06):
recovery assistance, medicare care, and financial counseling, as well as
services for help people transition from homelessness to permanent housing.
Being in a city where you're having to step over
the people living on the sidewalk made me realize that
this is a societal issue with no easy solutions, and
(16:31):
I thought this would be a good topic because these people,
while they're clearly creating a strain on their community still
have rights, They're still citizens. Martin Luther King is a
towering figure in the civil rights area, and as we've
(16:56):
struggled to realize the American dream, let us realize if
we do not struggle alone. The law school at U C.
Davis is named after Martin Luther King. The students daily
walk past a life size ceramic figure of the late
(17:20):
civil rights leader in the lobby of King Hall, even
though that of difficult days ahead, even though before the
victory is won, somebody else will have to get scotta,
somebody else will have to go to jail. Maybe some
(17:40):
will have to stay physical death for the victors one
some would be just understood, called bad names, be this mist, dangerous,
rabbit rousers, and agitated. Even in the mist, that's the
struggle must go on. In the run up to the event,
(18:13):
the Brooklyn Team practices against mystery teams, made up of
alumni who volunteer to help the two Whales get ready
to compete. The only job you ever had was babysitting. Correct? Yes?
Oh wait, wait, what the hell is I'm not the witness.
Oh my god, I'm sorry, I'm the I'm the attorney. Okay,
(18:34):
I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry so sorry to be
back up. You take it away. I will be the attorney.
They go at it night and day. That is all
for defense, Okay, Okay, plaintiff, do you have any additional
house giving matters to address? Yeah, your honor. We just
asked that everything that applied to defense also applies to plaintiff,
(18:55):
of course, and also as a as an aside, your honor,
do too my own version of cruel and unusual punishment
from back to back horses. I may be eating throughout
because I haven't had any food since I don't know
how long, So if you've seen me eating, I'm sorry,
(19:16):
No problem at all. Thanks for the heads up. Okay,
any other housekeeping matters from Lindon the practice judges talk
strategy to bring the four Nubies up to speed, just
keep your answers to yes or noltees. The witness if
chances the question can answer, however, she deals counsel. If
you're not getting the answers you want, you might want
to narrow your questions a little bit. Hey, sorry, Anna,
(19:39):
don't apologize to me. Okays. Off, It all comes down
to for students and a coach or two in a
room working hard. That's Adam schlahead coach at Fordham University
and one of our commentators, thinking about the case and
arguing and figuring it out and practicing and running it again.
(20:02):
That's the same at every single law school. It's what
happens in that little room. The learning happens in that
little room. Resources don't give anybody an advantage in that
little room. You need people who really care about this
and care about the students learning, and students who are motivated.
You know, you can get that anywhere, and you need
to really tie yourself very very closely to the law.
(20:25):
Laura Basilon is a former federal public defender who now
teaches at the University of San Francisco School of Law
and runs its highly acclaimed racial Justice Clinic. It's not
enough to just have bravado and style if there's nothing
else behind it. You have to absolutely understand what the
governing law is and if you're the prosecutor, be prepared
(20:46):
to prove every element, and if you're the defense counsel,
figure out which elements you don't need to contest and
which ones you do. So, Laura, when you're working with
your students, is there something that you do to be
able to say to them. Look, on one end, you
can't have an over zealous prosecution, but also on the
other end, you can't have criminal defense attorneys that have
(21:07):
blinders on. How do you work with your students to
let them know that this is a possibility when they
go out into the real world. I think it is
really important to be honest about the fact that we
have a lot of failings in this system, and they're
on both sides. So you're right. There are plenty of
over zealous prosecutors. There are prosecutors who suffer from tunnel vision.
There are prosecutors who commit misconduct, most of them not intentionally,
(21:31):
but because they haven't been trained properly or they get
caught up in the moment. At the same time, there
are plenty of defense attorneys who are not doing their jobs.
They may be poorly trained, they may be overwhelmed, or
they may quite frankly, just be lazy. And we have
had many, many cases where the level of advocacy at
the trial court on behalf of our post conviction clients
(21:52):
has been absolutely abysmal. We're in good shape, but the
more I learn about their situation, the more just devastating.
It is. I'm also blown away by how kind and
optimistic she is the more I learned. I mean, the
system fails her over and over and over again, and
she just continues to be the most wonderful person. Yeah,
(22:17):
and she'll also text us and say like, how are
you feeling today? Like, thank you so much for everything
you're doing. She's just she's so grateful, so sweet. In
addition to trial team Ellie and third year law student Regina,
you are working together on a real world case for
the Brooklyn Defender Service. Any law school these days would
(22:38):
have to have some clinical offerings, but we've been doing
this for fifty years now. Stacy Caplow is the supervisor
for the clinic. Most students here fro the law school,
by the time they're finished, have three, four, maybe even
five semesters of experiences in either in our clinics, which
are in house or off campus in offices all over
(23:01):
the city. So that's the annoying forum that the Pardon
office requires. So how far along are we on the forum?
Actually almost done? Um, most of it's filled out. So
our client is a woman and a mother and a
daughter and has been in this country from at least
(23:22):
half of her life and all of her adult life.
She first came here as a young teenager and had
lawful status in the US, but as a result of
a single mistake she made that violated federal law, she
was prosecuted, convicted, served a sentence, and then was put
(23:45):
into deportation proceedings. So one form of relief that we
can try to obtain for them is to get a
pardon from the President, and that pardon has the possibility
of acting as, in effect, a defense to their deportation.
Not a lot of people get pardons. You still want
(24:07):
to do this, yeah, all right, good with all the
aggravating details. That's what makes me want to do it more.
I do by far and the most meaningful yes, yeah, okay,
good good. I know Ellie from working with her this
semester in the clinic, and she is dogged, but also
(24:32):
has extremely warm and pleasant way of expressing herself. And
I think she's a good example, as is a Jany.
If there's a way that you put yourself out there
and you present yourself, be true to yourself, they really
don't need to yell and scream um. They can just
(24:53):
be calm, collected and forceful without having to pound the table.
So on Friday, around one o'clock, we had a little
team get together over Zoo like we would in like
a locker room sort of. This is a jenny pump
each other up, let each other know that we're not
(25:15):
going to be more ready than we are today, Like
we were about to go into a game, and it
was like leave it on the scoreboard, and then in
the hour right before we actually entered the competition room.
I have some like personal rituals that I do which
include listening and dancing to a very embarrassing Aretha Franklin
(25:38):
respect by myself in my room alone. It's I actually
have not even like admitted that to a lot of people,
So it's a very sacred ritual to me. Well, you
just admitted it, probably to a lot of people. But
that's okay, it's out. It's out now exactly very well, plaintiff,
(26:06):
are you ready to proceed with openings? Yes, your honor,
we're ready to proceed very well. You may proceed. A veteran,
a patriot, a United States citizen stripped of the rights
she risked her life to protect, may please the court.
(26:26):
Opposing counsel members of the jury. My name is A
Jenny Shaw, and I, along with my co council, Miss
Eli Sands, represent the plaintiff, Ms Riley Taylor. In today's case,
A Jenny opens as Brooklyn Law takes on the University
of Connecticut in round one. It's her team's first appearance
ever at a competition, and after she was honorably discharged,
(26:50):
she again answered the call to keep our country safe
as a mechanic on military aircrafts. Unfortunately, you will learn
that Miss Taylor was let go from her job, and
just after she was let go, you will hear that
her welfare check started getting smaller and smaller. So Miss
(27:14):
Taylor became just another data point in the city of
Oakland's growing homeless population. The Brooklyn team argues that the
plaintiff has value and humanity. They deny that the homeless
were rounded up in order to help them. Instead, Brooklyn
insists the homeless were arrested for being poor. Now, Chick
(27:38):
Gordon business was better in downtown Oakland, sure, yeah, but
the homeless population still existed. Yes, we were not able
to eradicate it completely. He referred to homeless individuals as
skid row rejects. I may have them. You referred to
(28:02):
homeless individuals as derelics. Yes, you referred to homeless individuals
as Mr ratsto oh in connection with the public defecation,
yes and vermin Yes. Jumping ahead to your critical Chief Barden,
(28:24):
you enforced executive order one of your team. Right after
the round, the team gathers online to wait for feedback,
and they hear that they beat Yukon, but the judges
say they need to work on a few things. Remove
all references to I believe. I think the court doesn't
care about your feelings. It doesn't care about your beliefs.
(28:46):
The court cares about the law. It cares about the facts,
and it cares about what's happening on the record. It's
not that you believe it's this, It's that this is
the law. There are times when I think you all
could have done a better job listening to your witness,
especially on direct out. They often felt like maybe an
objection came up, or your witness didn't give you the
exact answer, and then you've had a hard time pivoting
(29:08):
from there. Well, thanks everybody, that was a great round.
I thought the plaintiff your crosses were good, very very good.
In fact, Ellie, your cross was was very good. Brooklyn
Law is listening. They beat Texas A and M in
round two. Then their power matched too, you see San Diego. Yes,
(29:31):
I also asked promotions to strike of all answers that
referenced camps from the records that I'm not gonna do.
You let the cat out of the out of the
bag a little too too early, So we're just gonna
go ahead and perceive what we have that Mr Alfred's
where are you going after you testified with this, I'm
going back to the shelter station. How long have you
(29:53):
been in the shop station since January? You see? San
Diego wins round three, But the judges have some surprises
in store for the Brooklyn team. We were all at
on Jane's house and we were starving. None of us
had eaten yet because it was like a thirteen hour day.
We had gone straight through. We had ordered pizza and
(30:15):
like you were just stuffing our faces because you're so
hungry at that point. So we were sitting on the
couch and on the screen they were about to give
off awards and I was just like, oh, you know
opening statement awards. You know, Engineer Phoebe should get that.
And then the first thing that comes on is on
Jane's name. What just happened? We got them that opening statement.
(30:41):
We just all tackled her to the ground and we're
crying and screaming and so happy. And to get recognized
for something that I had no idea how to do
three four months ago out of a field of forty
four other people who gave opening statement, is from Ivy
League schools all across the country, so many talented advocates.
(31:08):
Was extremely validating that I have picked the right thing
and I can do this and this is for me,
even though some days it may not feel like it.
And then they announced the semifinalists and they named the
schools one by one. One school went by, and another
(31:30):
school went by, then the third school went by, and
we were the fourth school and our name pops up
on the screen and it was an eruption of screams
and joy and like shrieking and my my next I
feel so sorry for my poor next door neighbors who
(31:50):
have young kids, because it must have been like Eastern
time when this was happening. We were like, oh my god.
We were screaming, we were chumping, we were screen too.
We were like laughing, we were crying, we were hugging.
It was like it was such a it was a mess,
but it was so exciting and I'm so glad we
got to share that moment together. And then we were like,
(32:11):
we gotta go home, like we have to prepare it
for tomorrow morning. And the way it worked was that
there was a coin toss to see which side of
our team would be competing in the semifinal, and our
school on the coin toss, so our coaches chose to
have Aujany and I go. Then we ended up putting
on a case in the morning. Harvard was the reigning
(32:34):
champion of this competition. They had one last year going
against Harvard. I think, sure, the name is intimidating. And
(32:58):
when I told my parents, I mean, they were just ecstatic.
They know how much time has gone into this and
how much sacrifice I've had to make. Because they're right
over the bridge in New Jersey. We just knew she
was preparing. She was up against the big teams that
have proved themselves in the past, and it was going
(33:19):
to be a formidable competition. Doctors Lena and Proteston Shaw
are Angine's parents and when she told us about how
well their team did unexpectedly and how she did um
personally on a personal level, how how she excelled, we
were just so happy and proud of it. Well, to me,
(33:41):
it was not unexpectedly. To me, it was I knew, no,
I meant for the team. For the team, like for
the school in Brooklyn Law School had never had never
been placed that high in this sort of a competition
first time during this competition for Brooklyn. If you're passionate
about something, you can only be successful. Can I make
(34:03):
you a cup of tea or something? Just want to
drink some China? Absolutely, it'll be spicy. How about you, Laura,
I don't know about spicy. It's like it's flavorful. It's yeah,
we'll try a little bit. Yeah, okay, let me make them.
(34:24):
This is lose Lift tea. So I got three cups
of water in there. I have two tea bags. Put
three spoonfuls of loose lift tea. Then I have this
is chai masala. Masala is cardamom black pepper clubs. So
(34:48):
that's the spice. So Angie is the middle child. You know,
from the day she was born, she already had that
sense of fairness and justice even when she was much younger,
Like you know, she would take an issue, however small,
(35:08):
and just come up with an argument and say why
this is not right. So I'm basically the first lawyer
in the family. Kind of something that I had to
chart by myself. I think I told them after the fact.
I was like, okay, yeah, I'm on the court team.
They were like, we have no idea what that is.
(35:29):
I do think that the color of my skin makes
it such that I need to be more prepared than
whoever my adversary is at every turn. I mean, it's
certainly something I've just had to live with my whole life,
and at this point it's become a hustle. It's become
a hard work in a way of life, because I
know that the only reason my parents got to where
(35:51):
they were, and subsequently how they've been able to support
me to get to where I am is because of
all of that hard work and being more prepared the
person standing next to them. That's really all it comes
down to, you, Okay, I'm the oldest of four siblings.
I lost my dad at a very young age. My
(36:11):
mother raised us all four by herself. You know, she
managed to make sure we were all not only just
provided for, but also went on to be well educated
in professionals because I went to medical school at a
very young age. Um like, I was not even eighteen
when I started medical school. This was in India. So
(36:33):
I went from a small town to a big city
to learn medicine. And that's where I met him. And
he was, you know, a quote unquote foreigner because he
came from Kenya. I was born in Nairobi, Kenya, and
my father was born in Nairobi, Kenya. Kenya was a
British colony. East Africa was a British colony. My father
(36:55):
was a very a person of modest means. We lived
the one bedroom apartment, five of us. I'm the middle
of three siblings, so my father said, okay, you know
who's going to become the doctor here, you know, so
it was left up to me. And being a person
of modest means, education is very expensive abroad, England, America,
(37:19):
things like that, and so I opted to go to
India where the education was cheap. Four and a half
years in medical school and then I decided to come
here to the United States. It took me two years
to find a residency, and it was somebody gives you
an opportunity. Oh dad, I think the water. He hasn't
(37:49):
thought of the whole journey in a long time, so
all like with this much detail, it's all coming back
to him. So thank you, Kevin. He probably needs no.
I ended up getting an opportunity from from a residency
training director. My own director who gave me the externship
(38:12):
called me up and said, come and do a residency
with me. I don't need to interview you. I know
who you are. You're still in touch with him. He's
your mentor. He was an immigrant himself. Okay, Then I
flavor it with cardamom, ground up cardamom. Okay. Then I'm
(38:37):
gonna get some mint, and I'm going to get some ginger,
fresh mint, fresh ginger. This is the ratio I use.
Everybody doesn't use the same ratio. So I'll take my
ginger and I'll greet some ginger in it right always
(39:04):
you get smell, right, And then I'll take some fresh mint,
the fresh mint in there, and then I will come
to a boil, because you've got to let it boil.
And then you'll lead the mill starting with the plaint
(39:24):
if you have any other housekeeping matters to cover that
I have not covered right from the start. The judge
is tough on Ellie. Yes, your honor, the plaintiff has
a few housekeeping matters to attend to. Firstly, would your
honor like a courtesy copy of the plaintiff's notice of appearance? No,
I don't need one. Would your Honor like a brief
recitation of the facts for today's case, not as a
(39:45):
housekeeping matter. Now, your honor, for judicial notice. We have
discussed our emotions in Lemonade with opposing counsel during pre trial,
and I've stipulated to exclusion of three pieces of evidence.
Those are Lemonade matters. I am asking only for housekeeping
ma or stipulations will cover, Yes, you're owner. Additionally, your
honor permission to have local roles constructively read into the record.
(40:09):
Local rules do not need to be read into the record.
He was a tough clicking for sure, But Ellie, you know,
she stood her ground. She like recuperated, and she you know,
she was not phazed, and I'm really proud of her
for that. And so I was literally sitting on the
edge of my seat, my whole family was actually watching
two as spectators, and they were on the edge of
(40:30):
their seats too. But just because those competitors go to
Harvard Law School doesn't necessarily make them better advocates than
us because we go to Brooklyn Law School. You've all
had the material for the same amount of time, you've
all been training for the same amount of time, and
(40:50):
you all have the same resources to a certain extent,
going against four males. But it's interesting that was the
first thing Aye and I said to each other, is
that we're going against all male team and we have
a male judge. The case is on Ellast questions Phoebe,
who was acting as a witness, how long have you
(41:14):
been at shelter Station three and Salford over a year
and a half. Do you know how much longer you'll
be there? For? I have no idea, No one has
actually told me. All I know is that I can't leave.
Why not all their requirements Before I can leave, detainees
must work. I have to take classes and hygiene, math
(41:34):
and English, and I need to pass the test that
they give us at the end of my every month,
and the test is really hard. Why is the test her?
All their whole bunch of word problems on the math test,
and I don't have enough time to complete the questions.
They also can't use a calculator. Would you recognize that
test if you saw it here today? Yes, your honor
(41:55):
directing witness Court and counts's attention to what has been
pre marked as child exhibit to premiss to share via
the screen share function constructively outside the presence of the jury,
You may proceed. Please let the record collect drown. I
have an objection to this exhibit on you're premature for
your hairsay objection precede council on Jenny pushes back against
(42:18):
the Harvard defense. So let's start by talking about the
shelter station program. Can you describe it for the jury?
The shelter station program was a rehabilitated program putent place
because the state of Columbia was in a state of
crisis on two grounds, one being speculation and to being
(42:43):
lack of expertise. And I can explain further your owner,
if you wish, I have not yet had the witness
tendered as an expert. So it's a little proper objection
would be foundation. And if you are disputing the qualifications
of the expert. You're free to or dire if that's
your request, Your honor, may I planned if you wish
(43:05):
to order, are the expert? Yes, rounder may enquire you may.
Dr Cole. You've based your conclusions today on the established
principles in our field of urban social symmetry. That's correct.
Urban social symmetry is a relatively new field. Yes, it's
an exciting new field. And you testified that urban social
(43:26):
symmetry is about how demographic groups interact with each other. Correct, exactly,
and the effects it has on urban life and communities exactly.
Just a yes or now I will suffice, Dr coll
Thank you. Dr Cole. You consider homelessness to be one
part of that broad specialty. That's correct. You're aware that
the issue in today's case is homelessness. That's correct. We're
(43:48):
not here to discuss urban social symmetry. No, note that
the fields the home. That's correct. In fact, today is
the first time you're testifying about homelessness. Yes, that's correct.
No of the questions, your honor, he does not meet
the first requirement a Federal of evidence seven O two
and should not be tendered as an expert today. As
on Jenny Cross, examines a key witness. She's honing in
(44:11):
on Harvard's main line of argument. She denies that shelter
stations are a way to help homeless people. Instead, on
Jenny insists the city and state are more interested in
scoring points with voters for cleaning up the streets. They
don't really care about helping the homeless. You may proceed,
(44:32):
cross samination, Yes, Dr Cole, can you hear me all right?
Yes I have? Dr Cole. Have you testified as an
expert before? Yes? I have. And you get paid by
your client each time you testify today, the client paying
your fees the defendant, right, that's correct. I think I
(44:53):
saw what they were trying to do, and that actually
lit a little bit of a fire in me to say,
this expert is trying to sound really good and pull
the wool over the jury's eyes and pull the wool
over my eyes, frankly, and it's not gonna work. And
you're aware of that Executive Order one one three created
by Governor Ferris is that issue in this case? Yes,
(45:13):
I'm aware of that, Dr Cole. You've published research about
urban social symmetry, that's correct, and much of that research
is specifically focused on homelessness. Right. Yes. For example, you
published a piece titled a Societal Sickness, the cancer called homelessness. Yes,
that's correct. You also published a piece titled a Society
(45:35):
out of Balance, Homelessness and the Decay of the American Community. Yes, exactly.
So you've referred to homeless individuals as a cancer. I
referred to homelessness as a cancer, not homeless individuals. It's
it's a fine distinction. It's a kind of upon the
people who inflicts. So you referred to homelessness as a cancer,
(45:59):
that's corect And you've referred to homelessness as causing the
decay of America. Yes, it's closing today. That's correct. This
expert is an expert in urban social symmetry, which is
just absolutely the most absurd specialty I've ever heard of.
Sorry to anyone out there who is actually an expert
in urban social symmetry, I'd like to meet one some day. Yeah.
(46:23):
I felt that that was the most effective way to
make this expert really look silly. So those traps were
very purposefully laid. Everything now depends on the closing. It's
(46:49):
Ellie against Harvard. She argues that the defendant and affect
sentenced a veteran too indefinite detention at a shelter station,
and she denounces the defendant's refusal to take the stand.
Members of the jury. The defendant didn't even bother to
show up in court today. The defendant himself has no defense.
(47:14):
There were countless other ways the defendant could have helped
the homeless population he chose not to. In its closing argument,
Harvard flips that fame, claiming the shelter stations are meant
to help. This is a part of the process that
activist lawyers relish. Ellie goes straight at the defense in
(47:40):
her rebuttal ms Taylor and all homeless people in the
state of Columbia are subject to future indefinite detainment because
of the fact that they are homeless. The defendant is
not interested in eradicating homelessness. The defendant is interested in
(48:07):
eradicating homeless people. The defendant has used belligerent language to
describe Miss Taylor and other homeless people before. Words like
vermin and derrelics are simply part of his vocabulary. The
(48:29):
fact that government officials like Chief Boarden use words like
this to describe members of the public show he's not
qualified to be a public servant. Now this executive order
wants all homeless people together under the definition of vacancy.
(48:51):
That's not alex and thank you. You guys would like
to give feedback if you want, and then being little
common announced which team moved on. This is by far
one of the best about trials I've witnessed. I've tried
to take notes. Um, I couldn't see much room for improving.
(49:15):
I want to take note of when you guys actually
become lawyers so that i can set my retirement for
that time, because I'm not going to be able to
compete next. I was honored to be here today. These
are two extraordinary teams for extraordinary future lawyers. I'd be
happy to work with you. Um. My job is on
(49:36):
the general counsel for three D and forty billion dollar
financial institutions. I hire lawyers all the time. I've retained
lawyers all the time. All four of you would be
in my pool. I'd hire you anytime. You've chosen the
right profession. You're extraordinary. Judged a number of these my
(49:57):
trials over the years, and I think this is the
best that I've see. I have to say, you're all terrific.
My only suggestion would be that the closing argument probably
ought to be easier to remember than a long argument.
(50:23):
I will I will echo those comments that you know,
when when you get out in practice, you're going to
find that the hardest part about jury trials or any
kind of court appearance is standing up in front of
twelve people who couldn't escape jury duty, or three judges
that you think know the law so much better than
you when they really don't, and not stammering and losing
(50:47):
your place, and then sitting down and realize that you
didn't sip up your fly after the last trip to
the restroom. I guarantee you those mistakes will happen to you,
But I would encourage you to focus your opening statements
simply on your narrative of the facts. How can you
explain the facts of your case in a persuasive way
(51:08):
in three minutes, in a way that would persuade your
Trump supporting drunk uncle at Thanksgiving to believe your case.
The judges issue their ruling. Piet Civilian congratulations to all
teams that made to the semifinals. It was I mean,
it's been wonderful having you all. This is a very
very close round. UM, but the team that is advancing
(51:29):
to the final round is Team f Congrats also team
and a wonderful job, really really congratulations you all. Everyone's
been doing wonderful and good luck Team FUM in the
next round. I do questions. I'm going to jump back
to the main room, so ask me questions there, but
otherwise everyone else is free to go. Thank you all.
(51:49):
Congrats through Harvard advances. Brooklyn is out. You know, they
through a huge curveball at us. They didn't call the
defendant and they were representing the defendant in their case.
And we've run so many hypothetical so we've practiced against
(52:12):
so many different people, We've combated so many different personalities,
thinking that we had prepared for every possible scenario. In
no possible scenario did we ever think the defense would
not call the defendant. I ended up having to give
a cross examination that I had never done before because
(52:35):
I normally crossed the defendant. And I had to rewrite
my entire closing statement during the trial because my entire
closing statement was attacking the character of the defendant. So
there was a lot of agility and adjusting necessary in
that round. I felt that it was so close. Like, honestly,
(52:57):
when we were getting the judges feedback, I go through
the it's like it's been what like a month now.
I go through this almost like daily in my head
on my why did we lose? So? I think that
I felt we won UM just because of how hard
we worked and how good our trial was, despite the
(53:18):
craziness of what happened behind the scenes. I felt that
we watched away as winners UM despite not advancing to
the final round. Their advocacy was better than our advocacy
in that round, and that's why they won. Harvard didn't
call the defendant that was well within their choice. We
as a team fell short in preparing for that possibility.
(53:43):
I learned a lot from that competition. I learned more
than anything, to expect to be thrown off your game.
It's a matter of anticipating that there is going to
be something in the course of the trial that you
are not going to expect, and you need to go
in being prepared to go outside of your comfort zone,
going in being prepared to do something differently than what
(54:04):
you anticipated. It's a little bit of a metaphor for life. Sure,
it'd be nice to be at Harvard, but the Brooklyn
team has learned a valuable lesson. Soon they'll be walking
out the door to take the bar exam, and instead
of practicing for mock trial, they'll be practicing law and
(54:26):
on behalf of their real world clients. They'll never let
someone do that to them again. I think for myself,
for Anjany, for the rest of our team, and for coaches,
this isn't a game for us. This is what we
want to do with our lives, and we're very much
invested in social change. We're very much invested in the
(54:47):
issues that this case raised, homelessness, police discretion, poverty, criminal justice,
constitutional rights, and so for us, this was really an
introduction to our careers, and so it really wasn't about
winning or losing. It was about representing our client and
our values and our morals in the best way that
(55:09):
we could. I think the biggest update that we have
is that your pardon is officially filed. Crystal. It's a
five hundred page application that we sent over to the
federal part in office and now we just wait. Now
we just wait for a response. Okay, Crystal, how does
(55:31):
it make you feel to know that you have this
exceptional group of people that are just good people as
human beings, but are exceptional advocates that are working for
you to help you and your family be able to
stay in the United States. Afuly, very wonderful, feel very blessed,
and I thank all of them for their help to
tell the time. You know, take my case. I understand
(55:53):
that your family has faced great tragedy and that there
is this possibility that if you were to return to
Jamaica that you yourself would be at serious physical risk
of harm and maybe even death. I can't imagine how
difficult is for you to have to kind of process
all of this information. How do you manage this just
on an emotional level, on a personal level when you
(56:13):
think about on a day by day basis, like what
your future maybe let it's not it's hard. It's hard
for me and my kids because I'm sorry. It's like
is getting close up to court days and my kids
cry all the time. You know. Now everybody starts sleeping
in the room with me, said they're trying to spend
time with me before and then my family comes over
(56:36):
Myney's and never said they coming back over for spring breaks.
It's like it's really sad and Ellie, if you had
that unfettered, completely free conversation, maybe with the immigration judge,
or maybe if it was just Joe Biden just sitting
there across from you, what would you say, Ellie. I'd
probably read them a couple of paragraphs from the part
(56:56):
of application. I would just look at the pardon official
in the eye and asked them, you know, what would
you do if you couldn't feed your child? And how
would you want to be treated? Okay, this is an
introductory paragraph to the entire pardon. In this application, we
will share Miss Morris's story with you. It is a
(57:20):
story of resilience. Crystal Morris is a woman who refused
to let herself be defined by the cruelty and hardships
inflicted upon her, but instead took the fragmented pieces left
behind by her abusers and the murderers who took the
lives of her brothers, and turned these misfortunes into a beautiful,
(57:42):
complex and full life. Ms Morris has, against all odds,
created a stable home for herself, her six children, and
her mother. In this application, we will bring you into
her life, through the past into the present, and provide
a window into her future. However, we implore you to
(58:04):
recognize that Ms. Morris is so much more than we
could ever explain through words on a page. Crystal Morris
is joy and grace embodied. We hope to provide you
with the opportunity to become as moved and inspired by
Miss Morris's incredible display of strength and perseverance as we
(58:26):
have been. Crystal. I'm sure that there are miracles, but
it sounds like you've got angels on Earth oat of
looking out for you right now in the form of Aliya,
Michelle and Dan and everybody. So I wish you the
very best of luck, Crystal. But if I had anybody
like these fighting people fighting for me, I feel like
(58:47):
I got a little bit of luck and I got
a whole lot of some of God's grace helping me
out right now. Thank you. As for the rest of
the season for Brooklyn law the team won the Fordham
(59:09):
University Kelly Competition, beating u C l A. Ellie competed
in the regional national Championship for the Texas Young Lawyers Association,
advancing to the quarterfinals. She was then voted on to
the national team for next season. On Janie competed in
the Queen's County District Attorney's Competition, advancing to the quarterfinals.
(59:30):
She was selected to serve as president of the Moot
Court Honor Society. But I received the phone call saying, hey,
the judges are saying that you guys are cheating because
you have one advocate playing all the roles. Before you
all remove yourselves from the room, can we have the
(59:53):
team for the plaint We need to verify who which
one of you all be which portions of the trials.
So the only thing that's similar to them is that
they're both latin Us, they're both brown skin. Other than that,
it's two completely different people and you can't make them up.
That's next time on class Action. Class Action is a
(01:00:21):
production of I Heart Radio and Sound Argument, created, produced, written,
and edited by Kevin Huffman and Lisa Gray. This episode
was written by Wendy Nardi. Executive producers are Taylor Chacogne
and Katrina Nordbell. Sound design, editing and mixing by Evan
(01:00:43):
Tire and Taylor Chacogne. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio,
visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you get your favorite shows.
Class Action is a production of I Heart Radio and
Sound Argument. I'm definitely having dreams about this trial, having
dreams that I'm like in court, like full on trial,
getting objected to, objecting myself, and it's actually, you know,
encompassing every part of my life now. I can't even
(00:25):
get a good, nice rest without dreaming about trial. It
took a nap the other day and I had a
dream that RBG came into my dream. I was in
court and she was getting mad at me that I
wasn't objecting. Love. It's scary living Jesus out of me.
I was literally in court and opposing counsel was just
(00:49):
you know, giving their director cross and she's one of
the judges, and she's just like looking at me like
why aren't you objecting? This is objectionable object And I'm
just like, don't know how to object, I don't know
what to say. Oh my god, I'm losing my mind.
And she's just like getting annoyed with me. That would
just made me really sad. I was like, I can't.
That's just the worst things in life, letting her down
(01:09):
like that. She's one of my idols, being a woman
in the legal profession. It's not easy, and I hope
things will change, and honestly, sometimes I have to be like,
just take a deep breath. You can do it, because
she has a little insecure and I think she came
into my dream and it was like smacking that out
(01:30):
of my mind. I am, as you know from my
responses to your questionnaire. A Brooklyn Knight born in britt
A first generation American on my father's side, barely second
generation on my mother's. Neither of my parents had the
(01:53):
means to attend college, but both taught me to love learning,
to care about people, and to work hard for whatever
I wanted or believed in. Their parents had the foresight
(02:15):
to leave the Old Country when Jewish ancestry and faith
meant exposure to put RUMs and denigration of one's human worth.
What has become of me could happen only in America.
(02:36):
Like so many others, I owe so much to the
entry this nation afforded two people yearning to breathe free.
(02:56):
In October, Broken Law School sent an all female team
of second year law students to the Martin Luther King
Civil Rights Competition, held virtually from the University of California Davis.
The team is coached by third year students. They argue
their case four different times in one weekend against some
(03:18):
of the top rising legal talent in the country. Then
we saw Harvard, So we're all kind of just completely
silent on the edge of our seats. We did notice
that it was an all male team against an all
female team. For these young idealists, the mock trial was
(03:39):
a chance to see how their arguments could play out
in the real world of American law. So you referred
to homelessness as a cancer, and you referred to homelessness
as causing the decay of America. Yes, it's Closingay, that's correct.
Where justice can be scarce and litigation is often a
bare knuckled brawl. I'm Katie Fang. Welcome back to class action. Okay,
(04:16):
everyone ready for the scrummage? Yeah, Samantha, you're ready. I'm
just kidding my time. Hang. Okay, Well here, let's just
let's go with Bree Child. Start with great drop. You're
listening to episode six, Civil Rights and how to make
a cup of chi Running your Honor. We begin to
(04:39):
plaintiff has some passkeeping matters to attend to. Okay, well,
let's start with um introductions. I was born and raised
in New York City, and I went to public school
my whole life. My name is Ellie Sands. I'm a
second year law student at Brooklyn Law School. My full
name is Aliana, but I go by l A. After college,
(05:03):
I came back to New York and I was a
teacher in East Harlem. Just teaching at a school forty
blocks north of where I went to high school felt
like I was in a third world country. There were
things going on outside the school, like gang violence. There
were things going on in my students Famili's incarceration that
were severely impacting their ability to learn and perform in
(05:26):
the school environment that was being ignored and was being
disciplined harshly. I knew that it wasn't right. I ended
up coming to law school because I couldn't make the
kind of impact I wanted to without a lot of
great without being able to sit in the courtroom and
advocate on behalf of the clients that I was working with.
(05:49):
And I specifically wanted to do a civil rights competition
because that's the type of law I want to practice
once I graduate. Good afternoon. My name is Stubi Manicer,
and I also represent the defendant Travis Gordon in today's case.
My grandmother was a social worker for survivors of domestic violence.
(06:11):
Between her impact that she's had on me and my
general interest, that's brought me to the victim advocacy throughoute
UM working for a Court Room Advocates project where survivors
of domestic violence reach out to us and we walked
them through the process of filing for their petition for
an order of protection and family court. And then this
summer I was an intern in the Domestic Violence Bureau
(06:33):
at the Brooklyn DA's office, working with misdemeanors. I think
the way people enter the system through domestic violence is
interesting because it's not their choice. I find having connection
with a victim and having their perspective is so important
in doing justice. Good morning, your honor. My name is
(06:57):
Catherine Boyko, and I, along with my co counselor, present
the defendant Travis Gorton in today's case. I was born
in Brooklyn, New York. My parents were born in Ukraine
and my mom was a lawyer back in Ukraine. My
mom had to leave her home country to make sure
I had a better life, so it was really important
(07:19):
for me to carry on those dreams, carry on that ambition.
It's important to me personally because I see that you
know from personal work experience that there are so many
things that are just not right with the criminal justice
system that I don't want to be overly ambitious and
say that I'm going to be the person that fixes
(07:40):
all of it, but I definitely want to play a
part in that, to do what I can to make
things better for other people, defend people who can't really
stand up for themselves. Good afternoon, counselors. My name is
Antony Shawn. I represent the plaintiff, Miss Raley Taylor today.
This is the first time I've ever done this. There
(08:02):
are challenges. They're really just associated with, I think, overcoming
your own discomfort and your own vulnerabilities and attacking those
head on. For example, I think I am a very
non adversarial person, and obviously in a courtroom setting, it's
an adversarial setting, so you do have people who are
(08:22):
opposing counsel who are trying to potentially rile you up
or potentially trying to make frivolous objections just to throw
you off, and so dealing with that sort of discomfort
has been challenging, but it's also something to confront before
you actually get into a courtroom one day. Aeny is
the plaintiff defense Atene is the defense. A and Nelly
(08:48):
have spent most of their law school years on Zoom,
so it's only natural that they would be excited about
being in court and in person. So right now we're
in the Brooklyn Law School court room. So basically what
it looks like. There is a jury box, there is
a witness stand, there's a place where the judge sits um,
(09:10):
and there is a giant audience. Portion of this room
takes that most of the room. The party with the
burden of proof sits closest to the jury, So the
plaintiff or the prosecution sits closest to the jury. So
the plaintiff would sit here and then the defense would
sit at the table farthest from the jury box. They've
(09:31):
got to feel out the jury more. They've got the burden,
and so I think the person with the burden really
has to convince the jury. It's better to be in
close proximity because the closer you are to the jury,
the more likely they are to see that council tables reactions,
you know they're more likely to hear what they have
to say. And the point of a direct examination is
(09:53):
that you want the jury to be paying attention to
the witness. You don't want the jury to be looking
at you. You are not the star of the show.
Your witnesses the star of the show. Whereas on cross examination,
so I'll be doing cross of this witness if Ellie
is actually directing. So I stand here because I want
(10:13):
the jury to see me and my reactions, and you,
as the witness, are now looking at me and not them,
So that actually has quite an effect on the jury
as well, when you're diverting your eyes away from them.
I'm the closer. So the difference between opening and closing
is that in closing you are reviewing all of the
(10:34):
evidence that you brought in during your case in chief,
so it's less scripted and more a summary of everything
that came out during trial, a lot of which can
be unpredictable, some of which could be good for your side,
some of which could be bad for your side. So
you have to be agile and sort of improvise some
of what comes out in the closing. You also have
(10:56):
to flip the other side's theme that means that you
want to turn the other side argument against them. So
right now we're really ramping up for competition. It's less
than a week away, or about actually a week away.
It's a very intimidating process to present a case. You know,
(11:18):
as law students were so unfamiliar with this and over
zoom it's a whole other challenge. My name is Jane Dowling.
I am the coach of the U. C. Davis Martin
Luther King Civil Rights Competition. Confidence is really key. We're
not really making like substantive changes at this point. It's
just sort of running through the material, practicing, honing in
(11:41):
on some details, getting pumped up. Of course, we're law students.
We all have strong personalities. Like you don't come to
law school if if you don't have a strong volitions
and strong opinions. Brooklyn Law was founded in nine one
to serve working people, women, ethnic minority these and immigrants.
(12:01):
The school is across German Street from the Justice Ruth
Bader Ginsburg Municipal Building, on a stretch of pavement now
named Black Lives Matter Boulevard. German Street runs down to
the East River, an area that once held molasses and
sugar refineries, both industries that were rooted in America's slave
(12:22):
owning past. The young advocates on the Brooklyn Law Team
keep that history in mind as they pack up their
laptops and coffee and they fight through traffic to school
every day. The building faces Cabin Plaza Park, just blocks
away from the Brooklyn Bridge. In the last few years,
Cabin Plaza has become the epicenter of many of Brooklyn's
(12:47):
most heated protests. My name is Stacy Kaplow, and I'm
(13:08):
a professor of Blood Brooklyn Law School, the very progressive
and liberal student body here in New York. I'm also
the associate dean for experiential Education at the law School.
It's what's called a standalone school. In other words, were
not part of a larger university. So as a school,
we have a lot of independence and kind of nimble
(13:32):
in terms of what we can and kind of do.
Because we're located in the heart of New York, we
have access to all sorts of resources within what is
clearly the largest legal community in the world. So our
students are out there all the time working, as well
as obviously going to school and learning how to become lawyers.
(13:54):
The Brooklyn team has worked on arguments for both sides
of the problem for the King competition, and they have
to picture what could possibly come at them. Whether they're
representing the plaintiff or the defense, they have to be
ready for anything. An overview of this case is that
an executive order was put into place by the governor
(14:16):
of a made up state called the State of Columbia.
This executive order implemented what is called a shelter station,
which is supposed to take homeless individuals off of the
street and help give them a place to stay, food
to eat, a roof over their head. The plaintiff is
(14:36):
bringing an a commendment prol and unusual constitutional violation against
the defendant. Firstly, a homeless person is taken to shelter
station against their will. It's a detention center for which
they do not know how long they will be detained for.
A homeless person must complete classes in English and math,
(14:59):
they must several hygiene requirements, they have to engage in
a job while they're at the shelter station. And lastly,
and perhaps most burdensome, and they have to prove that
they have permanent housing before they're released. But they're unable
to save up money while they're at the shelter station.
(15:20):
The competition is the Martin Luther King Civil Rights Trial
Practice Competition. You See Davis School of Law has been
hosting that now for the last four years. I'm Dennis Coda.
I supervised the trial practice program at you see Davis
King Hall. I am a magistrate judge for the Eastern
(15:45):
District of California. There's a new option to help get
dozens of people off the streets of Sacramento. This is
the city's newest homeless shelter. Up to one people will
begin staying here next week. The X Straight Navigation Shelter
is near Broadway at Alhambra. It is more than just
a place to sleep, though. There's also life skills classes,
(16:06):
recovery assistance, medicare care, and financial counseling, as well as
services for help people transition from homelessness to permanent housing.
Being in a city where you're having to step over
the people living on the sidewalk made me realize that
this is a societal issue with no easy solutions, and
(16:31):
I thought this would be a good topic because these people,
while they're clearly creating a strain on their community still
have rights, They're still citizens. Martin Luther King is a
towering figure in the civil rights area, and as we've
(16:56):
struggled to realize the American dream, let us realize if
we do not struggle alone. The law school at U C.
Davis is named after Martin Luther King. The students daily
walk past a life size ceramic figure of the late
(17:20):
civil rights leader in the lobby of King Hall, even
though that of difficult days ahead, even though before the
victory is won, somebody else will have to get scotta,
somebody else will have to go to jail. Maybe some
(17:40):
will have to stay physical death for the victors one
some would be just understood, called bad names, be this mist, dangerous,
rabbit rousers, and agitated. Even in the mist, that's the
struggle must go on. In the run up to the event,
(18:13):
the Brooklyn Team practices against mystery teams, made up of
alumni who volunteer to help the two Whales get ready
to compete. The only job you ever had was babysitting. Correct? Yes?
Oh wait, wait, what the hell is I'm not the witness.
Oh my god, I'm sorry, I'm the I'm the attorney. Okay,
(18:34):
I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry so sorry to be
back up. You take it away. I will be the attorney.
They go at it night and day. That is all
for defense, Okay, Okay, plaintiff, do you have any additional
house giving matters to address? Yeah, your honor. We just
asked that everything that applied to defense also applies to plaintiff,
(18:55):
of course, and also as a as an aside, your honor,
do too my own version of cruel and unusual punishment
from back to back horses. I may be eating throughout
because I haven't had any food since I don't know
how long, So if you've seen me eating, I'm sorry,
(19:16):
No problem at all. Thanks for the heads up. Okay,
any other housekeeping matters from Lindon the practice judges talk
strategy to bring the four Nubies up to speed, just
keep your answers to yes or noltees. The witness if
chances the question can answer, however, she deals counsel. If
you're not getting the answers you want, you might want
to narrow your questions a little bit. Hey, sorry, Anna,
(19:39):
don't apologize to me. Okays. Off, It all comes down
to for students and a coach or two in a
room working hard. That's Adam schlahead coach at Fordham University
and one of our commentators, thinking about the case and
arguing and figuring it out and practicing and running it again.
(20:02):
That's the same at every single law school. It's what
happens in that little room. The learning happens in that
little room. Resources don't give anybody an advantage in that
little room. You need people who really care about this
and care about the students learning, and students who are motivated.
You know, you can get that anywhere, and you need
to really tie yourself very very closely to the law.
(20:25):
Laura Basilon is a former federal public defender who now
teaches at the University of San Francisco School of Law
and runs its highly acclaimed racial Justice Clinic. It's not
enough to just have bravado and style if there's nothing
else behind it. You have to absolutely understand what the
governing law is and if you're the prosecutor, be prepared
(20:46):
to prove every element, and if you're the defense counsel,
figure out which elements you don't need to contest and
which ones you do. So, Laura, when you're working with
your students, is there something that you do to be
able to say to them. Look, on one end, you
can't have an over zealous prosecution, but also on the
other end, you can't have criminal defense attorneys that have
(21:07):
blinders on. How do you work with your students to
let them know that this is a possibility when they
go out into the real world. I think it is
really important to be honest about the fact that we
have a lot of failings in this system, and they're
on both sides. So you're right. There are plenty of
over zealous prosecutors. There are prosecutors who suffer from tunnel vision.
There are prosecutors who commit misconduct, most of them not intentionally,
(21:31):
but because they haven't been trained properly or they get
caught up in the moment. At the same time, there
are plenty of defense attorneys who are not doing their jobs.
They may be poorly trained, they may be overwhelmed, or
they may quite frankly, just be lazy. And we have
had many, many cases where the level of advocacy at
the trial court on behalf of our post conviction clients
(21:52):
has been absolutely abysmal. We're in good shape, but the
more I learn about their situation, the more just devastating.
It is. I'm also blown away by how kind and
optimistic she is the more I learned. I mean, the
system fails her over and over and over again, and
she just continues to be the most wonderful person. Yeah,
(22:17):
and she'll also text us and say like, how are
you feeling today? Like, thank you so much for everything
you're doing. She's just she's so grateful, so sweet. In
addition to trial team Ellie and third year law student Regina,
you are working together on a real world case for
the Brooklyn Defender Service. Any law school these days would
(22:38):
have to have some clinical offerings, but we've been doing
this for fifty years now. Stacy Caplow is the supervisor
for the clinic. Most students here fro the law school,
by the time they're finished, have three, four, maybe even
five semesters of experiences in either in our clinics, which
are in house or off campus in offices all over
(23:01):
the city. So that's the annoying forum that the Pardon
office requires. So how far along are we on the forum?
Actually almost done? Um, most of it's filled out. So
our client is a woman and a mother and a
daughter and has been in this country from at least
(23:22):
half of her life and all of her adult life.
She first came here as a young teenager and had
lawful status in the US, but as a result of
a single mistake she made that violated federal law, she
was prosecuted, convicted, served a sentence, and then was put
(23:45):
into deportation proceedings. So one form of relief that we
can try to obtain for them is to get a
pardon from the President, and that pardon has the possibility
of acting as, in effect, a defense to their deportation.
Not a lot of people get pardons. You still want
(24:07):
to do this, yeah, all right, good with all the
aggravating details. That's what makes me want to do it more.
I do by far and the most meaningful yes, yeah, okay,
good good. I know Ellie from working with her this
semester in the clinic, and she is dogged, but also
(24:32):
has extremely warm and pleasant way of expressing herself. And
I think she's a good example, as is a Jany.
If there's a way that you put yourself out there
and you present yourself, be true to yourself, they really
don't need to yell and scream um. They can just
(24:53):
be calm, collected and forceful without having to pound the table.
So on Friday, around one o'clock, we had a little
team get together over Zoo like we would in like
a locker room sort of. This is a jenny pump
each other up, let each other know that we're not
(25:15):
going to be more ready than we are today, Like
we were about to go into a game, and it
was like leave it on the scoreboard, and then in
the hour right before we actually entered the competition room.
I have some like personal rituals that I do which
include listening and dancing to a very embarrassing Aretha Franklin
(25:38):
respect by myself in my room alone. It's I actually
have not even like admitted that to a lot of people,
So it's a very sacred ritual to me. Well, you
just admitted it, probably to a lot of people. But
that's okay, it's out. It's out now exactly very well, plaintiff,
(26:06):
are you ready to proceed with openings? Yes, your honor,
we're ready to proceed very well. You may proceed. A veteran,
a patriot, a United States citizen stripped of the rights
she risked her life to protect, may please the court.
(26:26):
Opposing counsel members of the jury. My name is A
Jenny Shaw, and I, along with my co council, Miss
Eli Sands, represent the plaintiff, Ms Riley Taylor. In today's case,
A Jenny opens as Brooklyn Law takes on the University
of Connecticut in round one. It's her team's first appearance
ever at a competition, and after she was honorably discharged,
(26:50):
she again answered the call to keep our country safe
as a mechanic on military aircrafts. Unfortunately, you will learn
that Miss Taylor was let go from her job, and
just after she was let go, you will hear that
her welfare check started getting smaller and smaller. So Miss
(27:14):
Taylor became just another data point in the city of
Oakland's growing homeless population. The Brooklyn team argues that the
plaintiff has value and humanity. They deny that the homeless
were rounded up in order to help them. Instead, Brooklyn
insists the homeless were arrested for being poor. Now, Chick
(27:38):
Gordon business was better in downtown Oakland, sure, yeah, but
the homeless population still existed. Yes, we were not able
to eradicate it completely. He referred to homeless individuals as
skid row rejects. I may have them. You referred to
(28:02):
homeless individuals as derelics. Yes, you referred to homeless individuals
as Mr ratsto oh in connection with the public defecation,
yes and vermin Yes. Jumping ahead to your critical Chief Barden,
(28:24):
you enforced executive order one of your team. Right after
the round, the team gathers online to wait for feedback,
and they hear that they beat Yukon, but the judges
say they need to work on a few things. Remove
all references to I believe. I think the court doesn't
care about your feelings. It doesn't care about your beliefs.
(28:46):
The court cares about the law. It cares about the facts,
and it cares about what's happening on the record. It's
not that you believe it's this, It's that this is
the law. There are times when I think you all
could have done a better job listening to your witness,
especially on direct out. They often felt like maybe an
objection came up, or your witness didn't give you the
exact answer, and then you've had a hard time pivoting
(29:08):
from there. Well, thanks everybody, that was a great round.
I thought the plaintiff your crosses were good, very very good.
In fact, Ellie, your cross was was very good. Brooklyn
Law is listening. They beat Texas A and M in
round two. Then their power matched too, you see San Diego. Yes,
(29:31):
I also asked promotions to strike of all answers that
referenced camps from the records that I'm not gonna do.
You let the cat out of the out of the
bag a little too too early, So we're just gonna
go ahead and perceive what we have that Mr Alfred's
where are you going after you testified with this, I'm
going back to the shelter station. How long have you
(29:53):
been in the shop station since January? You see? San
Diego wins round three, But the judges have some surprises
in store for the Brooklyn team. We were all at
on Jane's house and we were starving. None of us
had eaten yet because it was like a thirteen hour day.
We had gone straight through. We had ordered pizza and
(30:15):
like you were just stuffing our faces because you're so
hungry at that point. So we were sitting on the
couch and on the screen they were about to give
off awards and I was just like, oh, you know
opening statement awards. You know, Engineer Phoebe should get that.
And then the first thing that comes on is on
Jane's name. What just happened? We got them that opening statement.
(30:41):
We just all tackled her to the ground and we're
crying and screaming and so happy. And to get recognized
for something that I had no idea how to do
three four months ago out of a field of forty
four other people who gave opening statement, is from Ivy
League schools all across the country, so many talented advocates.
(31:08):
Was extremely validating that I have picked the right thing
and I can do this and this is for me,
even though some days it may not feel like it.
And then they announced the semifinalists and they named the
schools one by one. One school went by, and another
(31:30):
school went by, then the third school went by, and
we were the fourth school and our name pops up
on the screen and it was an eruption of screams
and joy and like shrieking and my my next I
feel so sorry for my poor next door neighbors who
(31:50):
have young kids, because it must have been like Eastern
time when this was happening. We were like, oh my god.
We were screaming, we were chumping, we were screen too.
We were like laughing, we were crying, we were hugging.
It was like it was such a it was a mess,
but it was so exciting and I'm so glad we
got to share that moment together. And then we were like,
(32:11):
we gotta go home, like we have to prepare it
for tomorrow morning. And the way it worked was that
there was a coin toss to see which side of
our team would be competing in the semifinal, and our
school on the coin toss, so our coaches chose to
have Aujany and I go. Then we ended up putting
on a case in the morning. Harvard was the reigning
(32:34):
champion of this competition. They had one last year going
against Harvard. I think, sure, the name is intimidating. And
(32:58):
when I told my parents, I mean, they were just ecstatic.
They know how much time has gone into this and
how much sacrifice I've had to make. Because they're right
over the bridge in New Jersey. We just knew she
was preparing. She was up against the big teams that
have proved themselves in the past, and it was going
(33:19):
to be a formidable competition. Doctors Lena and Proteston Shaw
are Angine's parents and when she told us about how
well their team did unexpectedly and how she did um
personally on a personal level, how how she excelled, we
were just so happy and proud of it. Well, to me,
(33:41):
it was not unexpectedly. To me, it was I knew, no,
I meant for the team. For the team, like for
the school in Brooklyn Law School had never had never
been placed that high in this sort of a competition
first time during this competition for Brooklyn. If you're passionate
about something, you can only be successful. Can I make
(34:03):
you a cup of tea or something? Just want to
drink some China? Absolutely, it'll be spicy. How about you, Laura,
I don't know about spicy. It's like it's flavorful. It's yeah,
we'll try a little bit. Yeah, okay, let me make them.
(34:24):
This is lose Lift tea. So I got three cups
of water in there. I have two tea bags. Put
three spoonfuls of loose lift tea. Then I have this
is chai masala. Masala is cardamom black pepper clubs. So
(34:48):
that's the spice. So Angie is the middle child. You know,
from the day she was born, she already had that
sense of fairness and justice even when she was much younger,
Like you know, she would take an issue, however small,
(35:08):
and just come up with an argument and say why
this is not right. So I'm basically the first lawyer
in the family. Kind of something that I had to
chart by myself. I think I told them after the fact.
I was like, okay, yeah, I'm on the court team.
They were like, we have no idea what that is.
(35:29):
I do think that the color of my skin makes
it such that I need to be more prepared than
whoever my adversary is at every turn. I mean, it's
certainly something I've just had to live with my whole life,
and at this point it's become a hustle. It's become
a hard work in a way of life, because I
know that the only reason my parents got to where
(35:51):
they were, and subsequently how they've been able to support
me to get to where I am is because of
all of that hard work and being more prepared the
person standing next to them. That's really all it comes
down to, you, Okay, I'm the oldest of four siblings.
I lost my dad at a very young age. My
(36:11):
mother raised us all four by herself. You know, she
managed to make sure we were all not only just
provided for, but also went on to be well educated
in professionals because I went to medical school at a
very young age. Um like, I was not even eighteen
when I started medical school. This was in India. So
(36:33):
I went from a small town to a big city
to learn medicine. And that's where I met him. And
he was, you know, a quote unquote foreigner because he
came from Kenya. I was born in Nairobi, Kenya, and
my father was born in Nairobi, Kenya. Kenya was a
British colony. East Africa was a British colony. My father
(36:55):
was a very a person of modest means. We lived
the one bedroom apartment, five of us. I'm the middle
of three siblings, so my father said, okay, you know
who's going to become the doctor here, you know, so
it was left up to me. And being a person
of modest means, education is very expensive abroad, England, America,
(37:19):
things like that, and so I opted to go to
India where the education was cheap. Four and a half
years in medical school and then I decided to come
here to the United States. It took me two years
to find a residency, and it was somebody gives you
an opportunity. Oh dad, I think the water. He hasn't
(37:49):
thought of the whole journey in a long time, so
all like with this much detail, it's all coming back
to him. So thank you, Kevin. He probably needs no.
I ended up getting an opportunity from from a residency
training director. My own director who gave me the externship
(38:12):
called me up and said, come and do a residency
with me. I don't need to interview you. I know
who you are. You're still in touch with him. He's
your mentor. He was an immigrant himself. Okay, Then I
flavor it with cardamom, ground up cardamom. Okay. Then I'm
(38:37):
gonna get some mint, and I'm going to get some ginger,
fresh mint, fresh ginger. This is the ratio I use.
Everybody doesn't use the same ratio. So I'll take my
ginger and I'll greet some ginger in it right always
(39:04):
you get smell, right, And then I'll take some fresh mint,
the fresh mint in there, and then I will come
to a boil, because you've got to let it boil.
And then you'll lead the mill starting with the plaint
(39:24):
if you have any other housekeeping matters to cover that
I have not covered right from the start. The judge
is tough on Ellie. Yes, your honor, the plaintiff has
a few housekeeping matters to attend to. Firstly, would your
honor like a courtesy copy of the plaintiff's notice of appearance? No,
I don't need one. Would your Honor like a brief
recitation of the facts for today's case, not as a
(39:45):
housekeeping matter. Now, your honor, for judicial notice. We have
discussed our emotions in Lemonade with opposing counsel during pre trial,
and I've stipulated to exclusion of three pieces of evidence.
Those are Lemonade matters. I am asking only for housekeeping
ma or stipulations will cover, Yes, you're owner. Additionally, your
honor permission to have local roles constructively read into the record.
(40:09):
Local rules do not need to be read into the record.
He was a tough clicking for sure, But Ellie, you know,
she stood her ground. She like recuperated, and she you know,
she was not phazed, and I'm really proud of her
for that. And so I was literally sitting on the
edge of my seat, my whole family was actually watching
two as spectators, and they were on the edge of
(40:30):
their seats too. But just because those competitors go to
Harvard Law School doesn't necessarily make them better advocates than
us because we go to Brooklyn Law School. You've all
had the material for the same amount of time, you've
all been training for the same amount of time, and
(40:50):
you all have the same resources to a certain extent,
going against four males. But it's interesting that was the
first thing Aye and I said to each other, is
that we're going against all male team and we have
a male judge. The case is on Ellast questions Phoebe,
who was acting as a witness, how long have you
(41:14):
been at shelter Station three and Salford over a year
and a half. Do you know how much longer you'll
be there? For? I have no idea, No one has
actually told me. All I know is that I can't leave.
Why not all their requirements Before I can leave, detainees
must work. I have to take classes and hygiene, math
(41:34):
and English, and I need to pass the test that
they give us at the end of my every month,
and the test is really hard. Why is the test her?
All their whole bunch of word problems on the math test,
and I don't have enough time to complete the questions.
They also can't use a calculator. Would you recognize that
test if you saw it here today? Yes, your honor
(41:55):
directing witness Court and counts's attention to what has been
pre marked as child exhibit to premiss to share via
the screen share function constructively outside the presence of the jury,
You may proceed. Please let the record collect drown. I
have an objection to this exhibit on you're premature for
your hairsay objection precede council on Jenny pushes back against
(42:18):
the Harvard defense. So let's start by talking about the
shelter station program. Can you describe it for the jury?
The shelter station program was a rehabilitated program putent place
because the state of Columbia was in a state of
crisis on two grounds, one being speculation and to being
(42:43):
lack of expertise. And I can explain further your owner,
if you wish, I have not yet had the witness
tendered as an expert. So it's a little proper objection
would be foundation. And if you are disputing the qualifications
of the expert. You're free to or dire if that's
your request, Your honor, may I planned if you wish
(43:05):
to order, are the expert? Yes, rounder may enquire you may.
Dr Cole. You've based your conclusions today on the established
principles in our field of urban social symmetry. That's correct.
Urban social symmetry is a relatively new field. Yes, it's
an exciting new field. And you testified that urban social
(43:26):
symmetry is about how demographic groups interact with each other. Correct, exactly,
and the effects it has on urban life and communities exactly.
Just a yes or now I will suffice, Dr coll
Thank you. Dr Cole. You consider homelessness to be one
part of that broad specialty. That's correct. You're aware that
the issue in today's case is homelessness. That's correct. We're
(43:48):
not here to discuss urban social symmetry. No, note that
the fields the home. That's correct. In fact, today is
the first time you're testifying about homelessness. Yes, that's correct.
No of the questions, your honor, he does not meet
the first requirement a Federal of evidence seven O two
and should not be tendered as an expert today. As
on Jenny Cross, examines a key witness. She's honing in
(44:11):
on Harvard's main line of argument. She denies that shelter
stations are a way to help homeless people. Instead, on
Jenny insists the city and state are more interested in
scoring points with voters for cleaning up the streets. They
don't really care about helping the homeless. You may proceed,
(44:32):
cross samination, Yes, Dr Cole, can you hear me all right?
Yes I have? Dr Cole. Have you testified as an
expert before? Yes? I have. And you get paid by
your client each time you testify today, the client paying
your fees the defendant, right, that's correct. I think I
(44:53):
saw what they were trying to do, and that actually
lit a little bit of a fire in me to say,
this expert is trying to sound really good and pull
the wool over the jury's eyes and pull the wool
over my eyes, frankly, and it's not gonna work. And
you're aware of that Executive Order one one three created
by Governor Ferris is that issue in this case? Yes,
(45:13):
I'm aware of that, Dr Cole. You've published research about
urban social symmetry, that's correct, and much of that research
is specifically focused on homelessness. Right. Yes. For example, you
published a piece titled a Societal Sickness, the cancer called homelessness. Yes,
that's correct. You also published a piece titled a Society
(45:35):
out of Balance, Homelessness and the Decay of the American Community. Yes, exactly.
So you've referred to homeless individuals as a cancer. I
referred to homelessness as a cancer, not homeless individuals. It's
it's a fine distinction. It's a kind of upon the
people who inflicts. So you referred to homelessness as a cancer,
(45:59):
that's corect And you've referred to homelessness as causing the
decay of America. Yes, it's closing today. That's correct. This
expert is an expert in urban social symmetry, which is
just absolutely the most absurd specialty I've ever heard of.
Sorry to anyone out there who is actually an expert
in urban social symmetry, I'd like to meet one some day. Yeah.
(46:23):
I felt that that was the most effective way to
make this expert really look silly. So those traps were
very purposefully laid. Everything now depends on the closing. It's
(46:49):
Ellie against Harvard. She argues that the defendant and affect
sentenced a veteran too indefinite detention at a shelter station,
and she denounces the defendant's refusal to take the stand.
Members of the jury. The defendant didn't even bother to
show up in court today. The defendant himself has no defense.
(47:14):
There were countless other ways the defendant could have helped
the homeless population he chose not to. In its closing argument,
Harvard flips that fame, claiming the shelter stations are meant
to help. This is a part of the process that
activist lawyers relish. Ellie goes straight at the defense in
(47:40):
her rebuttal ms Taylor and all homeless people in the
state of Columbia are subject to future indefinite detainment because
of the fact that they are homeless. The defendant is
not interested in eradicating homelessness. The defendant is interested in
(48:07):
eradicating homeless people. The defendant has used belligerent language to
describe Miss Taylor and other homeless people before. Words like
vermin and derrelics are simply part of his vocabulary. The
(48:29):
fact that government officials like Chief Boarden use words like
this to describe members of the public show he's not
qualified to be a public servant. Now this executive order
wants all homeless people together under the definition of vacancy.
(48:51):
That's not alex and thank you. You guys would like
to give feedback if you want, and then being little
common announced which team moved on. This is by far
one of the best about trials I've witnessed. I've tried
to take notes. Um, I couldn't see much room for improving.
(49:15):
I want to take note of when you guys actually
become lawyers so that i can set my retirement for
that time, because I'm not going to be able to
compete next. I was honored to be here today. These
are two extraordinary teams for extraordinary future lawyers. I'd be
happy to work with you. Um. My job is on
(49:36):
the general counsel for three D and forty billion dollar
financial institutions. I hire lawyers all the time. I've retained
lawyers all the time. All four of you would be
in my pool. I'd hire you anytime. You've chosen the
right profession. You're extraordinary. Judged a number of these my
(49:57):
trials over the years, and I think this is the
best that I've see. I have to say, you're all terrific.
My only suggestion would be that the closing argument probably
ought to be easier to remember than a long argument.
(50:23):
I will I will echo those comments that you know,
when when you get out in practice, you're going to
find that the hardest part about jury trials or any
kind of court appearance is standing up in front of
twelve people who couldn't escape jury duty, or three judges
that you think know the law so much better than
you when they really don't, and not stammering and losing
(50:47):
your place, and then sitting down and realize that you
didn't sip up your fly after the last trip to
the restroom. I guarantee you those mistakes will happen to you,
But I would encourage you to focus your opening statements
simply on your narrative of the facts. How can you
explain the facts of your case in a persuasive way
(51:08):
in three minutes, in a way that would persuade your
Trump supporting drunk uncle at Thanksgiving to believe your case.
The judges issue their ruling. Piet Civilian congratulations to all
teams that made to the semifinals. It was I mean,
it's been wonderful having you all. This is a very
very close round. UM, but the team that is advancing
(51:29):
to the final round is Team f Congrats also team
and a wonderful job, really really congratulations you all. Everyone's
been doing wonderful and good luck Team FUM in the
next round. I do questions. I'm going to jump back
to the main room, so ask me questions there, but
otherwise everyone else is free to go. Thank you all.
(51:49):
Congrats through Harvard advances. Brooklyn is out. You know, they
through a huge curveball at us. They didn't call the
defendant and they were representing the defendant in their case.
And we've run so many hypothetical so we've practiced against
(52:12):
so many different people, We've combated so many different personalities,
thinking that we had prepared for every possible scenario. In
no possible scenario did we ever think the defense would
not call the defendant. I ended up having to give
a cross examination that I had never done before because
(52:35):
I normally crossed the defendant. And I had to rewrite
my entire closing statement during the trial because my entire
closing statement was attacking the character of the defendant. So
there was a lot of agility and adjusting necessary in
that round. I felt that it was so close. Like, honestly,
(52:57):
when we were getting the judges feedback, I go through
the it's like it's been what like a month now.
I go through this almost like daily in my head
on my why did we lose? So? I think that
I felt we won UM just because of how hard
we worked and how good our trial was, despite the
(53:18):
craziness of what happened behind the scenes. I felt that
we watched away as winners UM despite not advancing to
the final round. Their advocacy was better than our advocacy
in that round, and that's why they won. Harvard didn't
call the defendant that was well within their choice. We
as a team fell short in preparing for that possibility.
(53:43):
I learned a lot from that competition. I learned more
than anything, to expect to be thrown off your game.
It's a matter of anticipating that there is going to
be something in the course of the trial that you
are not going to expect, and you need to go
in being prepared to go outside of your comfort zone,
going in being prepared to do something differently than what
(54:04):
you anticipated. It's a little bit of a metaphor for life. Sure,
it'd be nice to be at Harvard, but the Brooklyn
team has learned a valuable lesson. Soon they'll be walking
out the door to take the bar exam, and instead
of practicing for mock trial, they'll be practicing law and
(54:26):
on behalf of their real world clients. They'll never let
someone do that to them again. I think for myself,
for Anjany, for the rest of our team, and for coaches,
this isn't a game for us. This is what we
want to do with our lives, and we're very much
invested in social change. We're very much invested in the
(54:47):
issues that this case raised, homelessness, police discretion, poverty, criminal justice,
constitutional rights, and so for us, this was really an
introduction to our careers, and so it really wasn't about
winning or losing. It was about representing our client and
our values and our morals in the best way that
(55:09):
we could. I think the biggest update that we have
is that your pardon is officially filed. Crystal. It's a
five hundred page application that we sent over to the
federal part in office and now we just wait. Now
we just wait for a response. Okay, Crystal, how does
(55:31):
it make you feel to know that you have this
exceptional group of people that are just good people as
human beings, but are exceptional advocates that are working for
you to help you and your family be able to
stay in the United States. Afuly, very wonderful, feel very blessed,
and I thank all of them for their help to
tell the time. You know, take my case. I understand
(55:53):
that your family has faced great tragedy and that there
is this possibility that if you were to return to
Jamaica that you yourself would be at serious physical risk
of harm and maybe even death. I can't imagine how
difficult is for you to have to kind of process
all of this information. How do you manage this just
on an emotional level, on a personal level when you
(56:13):
think about on a day by day basis, like what
your future maybe let it's not it's hard. It's hard
for me and my kids because I'm sorry. It's like
is getting close up to court days and my kids
cry all the time. You know. Now everybody starts sleeping
in the room with me, said they're trying to spend
time with me before and then my family comes over
(56:36):
Myney's and never said they coming back over for spring breaks.
It's like it's really sad and Ellie, if you had
that unfettered, completely free conversation, maybe with the immigration judge,
or maybe if it was just Joe Biden just sitting
there across from you, what would you say, Ellie. I'd
probably read them a couple of paragraphs from the part
(56:56):
of application. I would just look at the pardon official
in the eye and asked them, you know, what would
you do if you couldn't feed your child? And how
would you want to be treated? Okay, this is an
introductory paragraph to the entire pardon. In this application, we
will share Miss Morris's story with you. It is a
(57:20):
story of resilience. Crystal Morris is a woman who refused
to let herself be defined by the cruelty and hardships
inflicted upon her, but instead took the fragmented pieces left
behind by her abusers and the murderers who took the
lives of her brothers, and turned these misfortunes into a beautiful,
(57:42):
complex and full life. Ms Morris has, against all odds,
created a stable home for herself, her six children, and
her mother. In this application, we will bring you into
her life, through the past into the present, and provide
a window into her future. However, we implore you to
(58:04):
recognize that Ms. Morris is so much more than we
could ever explain through words on a page. Crystal Morris
is joy and grace embodied. We hope to provide you
with the opportunity to become as moved and inspired by
Miss Morris's incredible display of strength and perseverance as we
(58:26):
have been. Crystal. I'm sure that there are miracles, but
it sounds like you've got angels on Earth oat of
looking out for you right now in the form of Aliya,
Michelle and Dan and everybody. So I wish you the
very best of luck, Crystal. But if I had anybody
like these fighting people fighting for me, I feel like
(58:47):
I got a little bit of luck and I got
a whole lot of some of God's grace helping me
out right now. Thank you. As for the rest of
the season for Brooklyn law the team won the Fordham
(59:09):
University Kelly Competition, beating u C l A. Ellie competed
in the regional national Championship for the Texas Young Lawyers Association,
advancing to the quarterfinals. She was then voted on to
the national team for next season. On Janie competed in
the Queen's County District Attorney's Competition, advancing to the quarterfinals.
(59:30):
She was selected to serve as president of the Moot
Court Honor Society. But I received the phone call saying, hey,
the judges are saying that you guys are cheating because
you have one advocate playing all the roles. Before you
all remove yourselves from the room, can we have the
(59:53):
team for the plaint We need to verify who which
one of you all be which portions of the trials.
So the only thing that's similar to them is that
they're both latin Us, they're both brown skin. Other than that,
it's two completely different people and you can't make them up.
That's next time on class Action. Class Action is a
(01:00:21):
production of I Heart Radio and Sound Argument, created, produced, written,
and edited by Kevin Huffman and Lisa Gray. This episode
was written by Wendy Nardi. Executive producers are Taylor Chacogne
and Katrina Nordbell. Sound design, editing and mixing by Evan
(01:00:43):
Tire and Taylor Chacogne. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio,
visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you get your favorite shows.
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