Ep8: Standing on the Shoulders of Giants

Matt Skinner and Tyler Volesky are sons of prominent defense attorneys in South Dakota who honor their Native American heritage by fighting for justice. Matt takes us inside the Minnehaha County Public Defender’s office, where he argues in real court on behalf of a Native client. Tyler is following in his father's footsteps in both law and politics.  But first, he must overcome some obstacles in the world of mock trial.

University of South Dakota Knudson School of Law

Hofstra University School of Law

American University Washington School of Law

Howard University School of Law

Minnehaha County Public Defender's Office

ICWA (Indian Child Welfare Act) information

Tribal Justice: 25 Years as a Tribal Appellate Justice by Frank Pommersheim

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Class action is a production of I heart radio and
sound argument. Thank you your type the fitting. You're the
lead investigator of this murder. I was you'd agree that
there are important parts of an investigation. Of course. Matt
Skinner was in my trial ad class last spring, and

(00:21):
when we got to cross examination weekn trial at he
came in and said, I know that I can push this,
but I don't know how. And that was the first
time that a student had come to me outside of
class and said, Hey, can you show me how to
get to this higher level? I know there's something there,
but what do I need to do? And he came
into class that night with this cross examination that just
utterly devastated the witness and was brutal. Now, let's talk

(00:44):
about that you measured the crime scene. I did. The
shooter was sixty five yards away from the deceased. Yes,
you measured these distances with three ft wide steps? Did
you didn't you use a tape measure? No? You didn't
use a yardstick. You use nothing to provide a more

(01:08):
accurate measurement. I use my three C gate to measure,
and I think that's very accurate. Is it more accurate
than a tape? Measure. No, no further question, Jarre, you're
listening to class Action. We're back in South Dakota. It's

(01:31):
getting colder outside, and the mock trial season is rolling on.
This is episode eight, Standing on the shoulders of Giants. Matt,
it was your debrief. Um, I felt good about it.

(01:52):
I thought I did a good job. I think our
argument works. I think it's in our favorite Recently, we
spent a day with Matt Skinner, who's a standout intern
at the Minnihaha County Public Defender's Office in Sioux Falls.
Matt's a third year law student and is certified to
conduct legal work in the state. Today, he's working with

(02:12):
a client who claims that his rights were abused by
the Sioux Falls Police Department during an arrest. And I'm
like what And I opened the door and then like
go out, and I say, how do you guys get
in here? You know what this is. I was going
to say something about that. So we can't take anything
that he has to say with actual validity. Matt is
a signed to work with Derrick Hoffman, himself a recent

(02:34):
crowd and a former mock trial competitor. The two of
them walk their client over to the County Courthouse, which
is just two blocks away. Matt is going to cross
examine the cops today. Okay, He's gonna pretty much do
the whole thing. He's more than qualified. He's on trial team.
It's the same thing. I mean, there's no difference. It's

(02:55):
probably easier to cross exam a real cop than a
fake cop because these real cops or duver. Then we'll
debrief afterwards. I've always wanted to do defense work. I
applied to the Public Defender's Office and they gave me
a chance, and I really liked it. My name is
Matthew Skinner Jr. And I'm a three L so. I

(03:18):
am from the Oglala Suit trab. My dad is Matthew
Skinner Senior. He's got a practice out in Rapid City
and he has done criminal law since I was born.
Got a trial coming up, and mom and dad would
sit in the front seat talk about it, and I'd
be in the back, leaning forward, trying to listen as
much as I could. I'd say, I'm defense minded because

(03:40):
of my dad. I love what he does. A lot
of police officers that I've talked to have been like, well,
you're just trying to get the bad guy away, and
it's like, no, I'm trying to make sure you do
your job. If you missed a step in your investigation,
that should not affect this person. You need to do
your job to the best of your ability, and I'm
whole thing you accountable to that. Are you going to

(04:03):
do the first I think you got it, dude, I
don't know how to do that. I don't remember how
to do it. Recollection back inside the law school building
and for million students are in between classes, their workshopping
their opening statements. Chector my computer like, yeah, oh wait,

(04:28):
if sorry, maybe please the Court Council your honor. Today
you're going to see a contrast between fantasy and reality.
Tyler Velski is a second year law student. Today he's

(04:48):
practicing with his trial team for its first competition of
the season. The case is a fun fact pattern and
it's a wrongful death. You see what tears families the
part as they fight over money, and in this case,
we got a million dollars of state and greed gets
the best of people. Sometimes that's good advice on how

(05:09):
to put that together. This is something that excites me.
It's a lot of work, can be stressful, but that's
what I want to do. And when people think of lawyers,
when they think of the profession, they think about the trials.
That's what makes the lawyers. It's a little bit of
theater involved, and you get to show off a little bit,

(05:29):
you know, the trial. That's kind of that's the pinnacle
of practicing law. I think, you know, some people just
want to sit in an office all day and open
probates and look at the states and never see a
court room. I would get bored after a while. As
an overarching, really important statistic for today's discussion, I think

(05:51):
it is worthwhile to keep in mind the higher rate
of police killings in the United States versus other countries.
We don't have a lot of data. My name is
Greg Brazil. I'm an assistant professor at the University of
South Dakota Law School, and the name of the class
is Selected Issues in Criminal Law. So today we're turning

(06:15):
to policing the Rise of the Warrior cop. I love
teaching this class, even though it involves a lot of
difficult conversations. I recently did that right along with the
Vermilion Police Department, and it seemed like they are very
much a community based Problem Solving Department. That being said,

(06:35):
the State of South Dakota did offer a grant to
the South Dakota d C Midwest Gang Investigators Association to
have this event. It took place last year Sioux Falls,
featuring Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman, the Killology Guy. Here is
an extreme, but not a typical quote from the kind

(06:59):
of presentation the Dave Grossman makes. We are at war
and our cops are the frontline troops in that war.
You are the delta force. It's your job to put
a piece of steel in your fist and kill those
sons of bitches when they come to kill our kids.
The law students are confronting the rise and police militarization

(07:19):
here in their own home communities. South Dakota has a
strong tradition of politeness, respect, helping your neighbors. A lot
of people don't even lock their doors at night, but
these days the rhetorics says they're at war. Final word.
I was in about seventh eighth grade when I had
the SWAP raid my home at three in the morning

(07:41):
looking for my brother who was already incarcerated. So you
have seven to eight people coming in with their flashlights,
they're extremely large guns. You know what I mean, Me
and my little sister, my mom, and my dad, and
you're looking for my brother. You're telling me you couldn't
how much research? How much did you have to do
to look and see that he was already locked up?
Why are you looking for him in our house in
the middle, You see what I'm saying. So that's where

(08:02):
it's just like that distrust things like that where there
has to be this I wouldn't say, like a bright
line rule, where it's like, in these instances we need
it and in these you can't. I just think it,
really it creates a lot of distrust. Absolutely, thank you,
thank you for sharing that this in one more comic,
it's it's unreasonable. I mean, there are circumstances where we

(08:22):
do need a strong police force, but there might get
to a point and this is not far fetched where
they are so where they is so powerful that we
can't tell them no even if they're even if what
they're doing is unjust Tyler, if you don't like something
like burn, you know, it's politicians that put into place.
So if you think we're you know, funding too much

(08:43):
militarization and the police, who's putting in that place. Oftentimes
it's the police officers who get blamed for carrying out
these policies that are put in place by higher ups,
and politicians make these decisions. So maybe, like you said,
we can hold the politicians and kleable, you know exactly.
And that trust issue has such huge consequences for crime.

(09:05):
So if you're concerned about reducing crime, you have to
care about trust. We'll talk about that when we do
the Police Legitimacy Unit as well. All right, thanks everyone.
Back in Sioux Falls, Matt Skinner is inside Courtroom number

(09:28):
one defending his client. This is an actual case, not
a mock trial. Today's appearance is a suppression hearing, and
the d a's office objected to the presence of our microphones.
Matt is questioning the procedures taken by two Sue Falls
cops during the arrest of his client. It's a big
assignment for an intern, a sign that the Public Defender's

(09:50):
office has confidence in his abilities. I tell myself, like
for this suppression all week as nearious for it obviously
and straight. But the best way I can cope with
that stress is telling myself all I have to do
is my best because I am not the reason that
this person is in court today. Whether they did it

(10:13):
or not is of issue for a jury. The suppression
hearing last about an hour. Matt checks in with his
client in the hallway afterwards. I've never been a party
any of that, so it was kind of interesting to
watch how that absolutely goes down. You know, you can
question the cops and see the cops nervous for once,
you know, for letting me take the reins on that too.

(10:35):
I appreciate it. It was a great learning experience to
spend a lot of time with it, texting Derek random
at random hours, Hey can you look this up for me?
But I appreciate it, and I'll get with your office.
And it's gonna be a busy day. So as soon
as Matt gets a free minute, he calls his dad.

(10:56):
Do you hear me? So it went well. They ended
up calling um two of the three officers, right. The
one officer was like newly a cop, so it felt
like kind of like a showdown between the newby lawyer
and the newby cop. But I got him to essentially

(11:19):
admit that he never read Miranda and that he should have.
Oh really. He admitted that but did he admit that
he should have brought him. Yeah, he's like, I didn't,
but I should have. That's that's a pretty good point. Yeah,
it's hard to win those suppression earings, and he just
gotta go for it, right, That's how you learn. That's
how to get better. That's the fear is you don't

(11:40):
want to look stupid. But all of us as attorneys
have been there. So now I'm sure you're glad you
did the whole thing that you did both of the cops. Yeah,
I mean, oh yeah, for sure. I only did one
stupid thing too. I didn't know how to basically questioned
the cop about the impaired driver report, so I'm like

(12:01):
standing there, I'm like, oh my god, I don't know
what I'm doing. I had to call the attorney over
to basically walk me through it while I was standing
next to the cop. And now that you've done that,
you know how to do it. We'll talk more about
it at cabin week. Alright, you later, maybe tonight too.
All right, I'll talk to you later. I love you,

(12:21):
all right, love to later. So it's very interesting. Usually, Yeah,
that's the thing in South Dakota. I've never I don't
walk the house, so I keep my keys in the car.

(12:46):
So right here, this is kind of what's famous and Vermilion.
You have the Dakota Dome. This is where the football
team plays. Well, yeah, this is kind of like the Jewel.
Right now, let's happen. Let's see here, let's go right here.
Oh oh, preseason scrimmon. Baby. I think that that's the

(13:06):
football team of Kayons. We're at main Stream. That is
where I get my haircut to Kyle barber shop. There's
the Varsity Pub. My roommate, he's a lawyer. He practices
right over there, carries that's the scholarly bar. That's where

(13:28):
we have all our socials. Okay, here's our courthouse. They're
talking about building a new one, but I don't think
that's gonna taxpayers aren't gonna go for that. I don't
think South Dakota has this notion of tough on crime,
you know, lock him up. Well, you've got to take
into account somebody's life story, their history, what they've been through,

(13:51):
what's created them to be in that situation. And you know,
I definitely see myself in that role kind of helping
the underdog, and you know, just being as best advocate
as I can for people that are, you know, kind
of underdogs the society that have a mistrust of the system.

(14:11):
So ver millions in the unique locations, so over past
this river, then you're in Nebraska. I don't know what
your stereotypes about South Dakota people are, but I've never hunted.
I don't fish, I don't camp, I don't hike. Growing up, yeah,
I came from an athlete family, so sports were important.

(14:32):
And uh, I know about politics longs like a lot
of these politicians. I'll tell you how they do it.
I think exact what the culture. I'm not gonna put
on a cowboy had or shoot a gun just for
political votes. Well, I guess my situation in my hometown.

(14:56):
Everybody in those up Native American because my dad and
everything so traditionally though, like a lot of Native Americans,
it's part of the old the old culture. You know,
you the hunted buffalo on the prairie, first survival. I
don't know. I just I never got into it because
my thing was and you know, on a and the
early part of November, the last thing I want to

(15:17):
do is be in a field at seven o'clock in
the morning when it's thirty two degrees out. You know
what I mean? I see I came up. One of

(15:42):
the calls I was on this week was recruiting candidates
to run. I will tell you it, Tyler's name was
brought up. And I have no doubt that if there's
any candidate that if they want to rise up in
the party and and give up of some of themselves
to help others, this is the person that will do
it well. My name is Dennis Olsen. I'm from here

(16:05):
on South Dakota. I am the national committeeman for the
South Dakota Democratic Party. Got the opportunity to join him
and work with on his campaign. I did a lot
of parades, homecoming parades, a couple of debates, and then
a lot of campaigning door to door. So it's a
lot of work in Tyler Vellski ran for state representative

(16:29):
as a Democrat, following in his dad's footsteps of public service.
What Tyler had where he was working for everybody. He
will represent everybody and be a voice for everyone. There's
individuals like Tyler in his age that are fired up
and like Barack Obamas would say, and ready to go.

(16:52):
They have the enthusiasm that's been missing. Dennis remembered to
bring along some old campaign clips to play for Tyler.
So what speeches this from? Is this? Is this from
one of my speeches? Or do we write this out?
I don't I don't know, I got I can't remember.
It looks like there's two versions. I know I did

(17:15):
right here. There's two, Well, there's two versions on My
last version was the best, I think, But yeah, yeah,
that's it. That's a good one here the day. I
will say running for office as a first time cand
I announced when I was twenty six years old, and
it's been a very time stressful experience, but also very
rewarding experience. It's been an honor, one of the most

(17:38):
rewarding experiences of my life. Well, the second number one
is coaching my baseball team. Always come first, always in
my heart. Number one. But it's been a great journey
and we're gonna finish off strong these next four days. Now,
we're gonna get a big victory. On November six. November six,
Tyler ran as a Democrat in a majority Republican district.

(17:59):
He went to door two door and pulled votes from
the incumbents. Even though we didn't win. We overperformed based
on the voting registration. But when I got out of there,
I said, this isn't the end of it. This we're
just getting started here. It's just a matter when we
get that next opportunity. Tyler Velski still has that fire

(18:21):
in the belly to get out and help the Democratic Party,
the party of working people, of diversity, the party that
tries to include everybody under its big tent a little
bit about running for office has been a very rewarding
and a very humbling journey. I see some of all
these beautiful letters that many of you have written about me,

(18:42):
all the frang words are you written about me? And
I think to myself, what are they talking about? But
it's been a great journey, and we gotta keep it going.
We everything running. We we you can get your dad's
old district band and so turned about Democrat Shane put
food on the table. I mean, we have people are
working two and three jobs just trying to make it okay.

(19:05):
That's why we got fire in the belly for Democrats
to get involved and do the thing. You don't know
what's going to happen in the future. That's one thing
that I've learned sometimes you take a detour, but if
you have that goal, no matter what detour you take,
the path will always lead you back there if you

(19:25):
want it. How do you feel wearing a suit? I
like it. I like dressing. That's one of the things
I enjoy about the legal profession. You get to look
nice and more as suit Tyler has finally arrived at
his big moment, his first appearance at a mock trial.

(19:47):
It just gives you a little edge, a little confidence,
and people treat you different. When I'm walking to the
gas station today, everybody opens the door and says, hi, sir,
how you doing more? Normally I don't get that kind
of treatment. Yeah, but once inside the court room, that
suave outward appearance starts to give way to nervous tension.

(20:09):
Can you want to turn that down? Oh? Wait, no,
office right? Like I said, I just want to hit
the care for Grandma gambling. Try to get that search
history in. If not, I'll finish with a few follow
up questions and then we'll move on Jason. That should
be pretty straightforward, and I guess where we're at on time.

(20:30):
Might term whether I redirect, although it's probably not be
too long. So here's here's the mentality and redirect. If
you think it was super damning that they brought something
up that you need to address in out for questions,
right and Mr Miller and Mr Bell, we're ready whenever

(20:55):
you are. May it please the Court council, members of
the jury, the case before you today. It comes down
to fact versus fiction, the factual reality that Jace Billington
experienced every single day that he lived with his grandmother
caring for, and the fictional fantasy of his younger sister Parker.

(21:22):
Members of the jury, my name is Tyler Veleski, along
with my co council Mr Miller Dylan Miller. Over the
course the team battles for position in the case. But
calling of exhibits online, it's a technological nightmare. I have
to put exhibits on there through the computer, and I

(21:42):
just learned how to like share that last night. Then,
under the judge's watchful eye, one of the witnesses throws
them a curve off. Hello, miss Billington's can you please
introduce yourself to the jury. I don't know if we
have are I don't know if we have our witness

(22:13):
She was our assigned winness. She's from Hostra. Yes, our
witness did not show up right away, so I was
supposed to do direct examination right away during our case
in chief, and I called the witness and our witness

(22:35):
was not there, so we had to move ahead and
do Dylan's part first. And I was like, Oh, this
could be bad. We don't have our witness here. That's
gonna look really bad for the schools. Fine, make you're
john ally really appreciative youthing. As soon as the trial

(22:57):
comes to a close, Tyler calls he's dad for some perspective. Anybody, Hey,
how's it going good? I wanted to talk to you
about what went down to day. I had the trial
and I absolutely killed it and I got the Best

(23:19):
Opening Award. Now I'm just kidding. Actually it was disappointing
the day anyway. We were set to go at one
o'clock and they switched the bracket up on us. We
don't know exactly how it was going. We were supposed
to go twice and then the top team's advanced to
the finals. But I don't know either. They switched up

(23:41):
the bracket, but regardless, we're not going today. What was
your first trial, like, what was your experience. Like with that,
I adn't good experience. I was well prepared. It's like
anything of life. If you're prepared, you're gonna handle. See,
this is script experience for you for the real world

(24:02):
because you're preparing for trial right now. Hopefully we go
if not any other last words of advice advice, just
to say, Tyler, I love you. You really have that
natural gift of communication. You don't learn that books. It's

(24:23):
just something you're kind of born with, and you were
born with it, and you always strive for it, and
you've got it. You've got the in fact, your buddy,
all right, talk to you later. So let's look at

(24:50):
adoptive couple versus baby girl, which seems like it's in
serious tension with holy Field and a couple of different ways.
So we'll pull that apart a bit. So Professor and
Tweetie teaches the Indian Law class. South Dakota was one
of the first states to put an Indian law question
on its bar. Example differently by many people, but it

(25:13):
was certainly is for the benefit of tribes, and so
ambiguities are to be resolved in favor of the tribe.
Statutes are to be liberally. Today, they're tackling a major controversy,
a case that's actually headed to the United States Supreme Court.
Earlier this week, the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals released
an extensive opinion on the Indian Child Welfare Act. Lawyers

(25:35):
immediately started to examine its potential effect on legal processes
in place for more than forty years. An attorney with
the American Civil Liberties Unions as much of the law
still stands, but some important protections have been found unconstitutional.
The Indian Child Welfare Act, which we also referred to
as Equal, was passed in ninety eight. Native children were

(25:59):
being removed, moved by state social service workers and placed
with non Indian families. And there were some studies that
revealed these hugely disparate problems with Native children being removed,
and so Equal was supposed to remedy that, and so
it put in protections so that the child would stay
with the family. And um there were also placement preferences

(26:22):
so that if a child was removed, they would go
to a family that was within the tribe extended family
members before they would go to a non Indian family. Right.
That's a big part of it is that they're saying
the families not being broken up if there never was
never was a family according to the court, So we

(26:43):
have nine twelve Native families are in danger of losing
their children. So that's a huge problem. It was trying
to undo these centuries of oppression where tribal governments and
tribal cultures were the target of these destructive policies. And
if we sort of end those remedial policies, but will

(27:04):
instantiate more injustice for tribal families tribal cultures too, because
there's also a concern what tribes will die out if
so many of their children are taken away, how can
they even sustain themselves? Company, oh past share a personal story.
My father was born on the Standing Rock Indian Reservation.

(27:26):
He grew up in poverty, came from a home of
alcoholism and violence and abuse, and all of a sudden,
the Department of Social Services showed up with no notice
and they just took him from the home and put
him in foster care four hours away in here On
to a white family. And throughout his childhood there was
a huge battle. He went back and forth to the

(27:48):
rest and his mom would kind of go down a
bad road. Then he would go back to the Foster
home and there was a big custody battle, and eventually
I just have to make sure my dog snows out

(28:09):
of the office because sometimes you have Tennessee to embark
when people come in the front door. So just excuses
where your snow snore. I don't have to comb my hair,
I don't have put any moose in my hair or
anything like that. We're okay, okay. My name is Ron Veleski.

(28:31):
I'm an attorney here in South Dakota, and I just
usually go by Ron Valeski, Attorney at Law. I have
been told by my relatives. I've been advised that we

(28:51):
are in the lineage of Sitting Bowl. How many generations
back that goes, I'm not certain, but I have been
told by my family that we are in the ancestral
line of chief Sitting Bowl. Makes me feel humbled and

(29:16):
makes me feel very glad about who I am. I
was born on the Standing Rocky and Heat Reservation. As
my siblings, all were were born into poverty. We were

(29:37):
born into family dysfunction, we were born into alcoholism, and
uh there was some physical abuse, et cetera. I loved
my mother and but she was an alcoholic, and there

(29:59):
were times when the welfare agency they would come and
take us children and put us in foster homes, in
foster care different places. My brother was about three, maybe
I was five and he was four. We were just
young kids, and that went on for a number of
years until finally the welfare department said well that's enough.

(30:23):
I ended up being adopted by the Veleski's and my
mom said, yeah, you showed up. The head of the
welfare department brought you to the house. You had a
T shirt on with a hole in it, you had
a little some little shorts on. You had tenner shoes
with a hole in both toes in a shoe box,

(30:45):
and that was all your belogings. And they took me in.
They loved me and they raised me, and I'm here
today as an example of love and courage by a
white family that adopted a little Indian child from a reservation.

(31:12):
My father was a custodian at Lincoln School, and every
day after school I would go down to where he
was working at the school and and I'd played basketball
hour after hour in the gym so and also played
some football, ran track, played baseball all those things. I

(31:34):
wasn't Jim four, but I was a pretty decent all
around athlete. You know, you always got some war hoops
and basketball from different fans around the state. But I
took that as a compliment because I was a good
player and one the other side was trying to do
chance and war hoops when I was shooting free throws.

(31:57):
I took that as a badge of her, maybe even
a sign of respect towards me. My father that adopted me,
and he died when I was a freshman in high school.
So I often say I became a juvenile delinquent, which
I did for a year or two. But I ran
into guidance counselor named Don'ta Brown, who called me down

(32:22):
to her office one day and she said, you know,
I don't know what you're doing. You're you're flunking this
and you're flunking that. But she said, your test scores
are very high. And she said, how would you like
to go to Harvard? And I said, well, I don't

(32:43):
know anything about Harvard. I don't know that I've ever
heard of it, except I know they played the Carlisle
Indians back in nineteen twelve and got beat but I'm
not even sure where it is. She's wells in Cambridge, Massachusetts.
So I did my part and she did her part.
M and I got an opportunity to go to Harvard

(33:04):
and spent four years there in college, and I went
to the University of South Dakota Law School, and I
was very interested in politics at that point in time.
Ron Velsky was elected to the state legislature as a
Republican in Night, the only Native American lawmaker at the time.

(33:25):
Where's Native American representation in state government? How many cabinet
members in state government a Native America? How many Native
Americans on the circuit court bench throughout the state of
South Dakota. When are we gonna get representation in this

(33:45):
government like we should have and like we need to have.
I say to the power structures, listen to what's happening
out there, and let's make state government and the judicial
system more representative of the population as a whole. He

(34:13):
was a barrier breaker in the stens that I think
he was the first Native American to, uh, you know,
run for governor for a major party at the time
in the United States. I used to go to the
Standing Rock. I remember when my dad was running for governor.
We went to the reservation. You know, I met some

(34:34):
of my uncles and family that didn't I didn't even
know personally. My dad's represented a lot of Native Americans
throughout the state because he's well known in Indian Territory
and being one of the few, you know, Native American attorneys,
they know you, and they might not know too many lawyers,
so they give him a call. He tried to help,

(34:55):
you know people from where he came from as much
as he can. In tribal court, things are much more informal.
Family structures are much more different among Native people than
they are among the white dominant society. So when you're

(35:17):
in those areas of practicing law and travel court, you
have to understand those nuances. We don't have a lot
of Native American attorneys in South Dakota. I think we
need more Native American attorneys on the reservations. We don't
have enough. Native Americans are rather reserved people. They aren't

(35:42):
the types of people that are really aggressive, but yet
they are strong people and they know that, and I
think that helps them at times to be able to
rise above racism, bigotry, and prejudice and really become what

(36:06):
they want to become. And here's the deal. What they
want to become isn't always what the dominant white society
would think that they should want to become. They have
their own sense of well being, and that well being
sometimes isn't in harmony with the society outside them. And

(36:34):
be talking about Native Americans and criminal justice. Please coming
up and welcome Professor Frank Palmerston. Back in Professor Greg
Brazil's class, Tyler meets the man who wrote the Tribal
Court Handbook, a sixties radical who drove out to the
prairie and a battered Chevy Nova and didn't look back.

(36:58):
He ended up teaching tribal law at USD MHM. Historically,
they have been very few figures and state politics in particular,
that show respect to Indian people. We always say to me, Frank,
you know, until people show us respect, we're not gonna
be able to go forward. In one of my last

(37:18):
couple of years and Indian law, I had like students
read a book by Louise Erderic or other Indian authors,
and my assignment went something like this, write a three
page book review of this. Students were saying it was
like really confronted stuff, or Indian people saying that they
were find it tough, like fitting into law school because

(37:41):
they didn't feel that law school really had enough space
for them. Guarantee, you cannot be a good prosecute unless
you have some understanding that racism actually exists, and it's
a possibility in every case that you have, and certainly
from the defense side, of course, you have to, I
believe entertain ain't it if you just pretend that it

(38:01):
doesn't exist because you're a good person in quotation, weren't Like, No,
you can't be a good lawyer. You definitely cannot. Let
me get a round of applause for Professor PALMERSI thank you,
thanks so much. I really enjoyed it. In Sue Falls,
Matt Skinner's internship at the Public Defender's Office is coming

(38:24):
to a close. He and Derek are meeting with a
new client. Matt, why don't you kind of run through
the charge? Okay? So yeah, do you? I first in speeding.
The location of the traffic stop was on Interstate ninety
mile mark, Minia County. When the officer arrived on the scene,

(38:46):
spoke with Trooper Jensen, who informed him that the driver
who has stopped for traveling a d two miles per
hour in a sixty speed zone. Does that sound right?
So far? While in the patrol vehicle, the officer detected
the order of our called beverage. That right, A breath
test was administered. The reading was point one three breath

(39:07):
alcohol content. You were placed under arrest for driving under
the influence, first offense, transported to jail. And this was
at like, yes, I was traveling from central South Dakota
the lower Rule, the Indian Reservation. So is that where
you had the drinks that morning, early morning hours from

(39:31):
three or Okay, are you in the military? Wasn't the
military is Marines. I have something I need to disclose
to you guys right now. I'm on a dipend. I
suspended in position right now for grantly striving charge. Okay,
And that was actually a d I was dealing with

(39:53):
a suicide of one of my brothers in arms at
the time, and I was mourning that death, and that's
why I lost control of my helped at that point.
This incident was morning a cousin of mine and that's
why I was back in the reservation and traveling back
here three two falls, So I think it's a little
bit of a pattern there. I don't know if you
want if that matters. I mean that definitely matters. Um

(40:16):
is there going to be like jail time because it's
suspended him on this case? The offer right out of
the gate, this is just a standard first d U.
I does that make sense? Probably a good thing. Then, okay,
all right, So what we'll do today is we can
ask for the delay on your behalf so you can
leave if you want. I know you've been here a while.

(40:38):
Maybe I will stay and go. Okay, okay, some actions.
All right, thanks? And that was honestly nice that he
did that, because I would guess that most clients wouldn't
be like, hey, already have a suspended imposition. He was like,
I gotta tell you right now, I have this, which

(41:00):
was really nice to actually have when I'm looking for
a trial lawyer, I am looking for somebody who, at
the end of the day, do you have a capacity
to look at another human being who is separate and
apart from you, to empathize with their situation and to
recognize when an injustice has occurred under the rules, and

(41:21):
then zealously argue I want them all day long and
twice on Sunday. Coach Laura Rose runs the trial team
and teaches classes on top of all that. This year
she submitted the documents for tenure review. Dad, you got
the email that I forward you last night? Right. Wanting
some father daughter time, she calls her dad, who happens

(41:45):
to be Professor Charles Rose, the third dean of the
College of Law at Ohio Northern University. Oh yeah, the
one about the course. But no, not one, not that one. Well,
hang on, I didn't even send you the one that
I wanted to send you. Let me send you this one.
Charles Rose spent twenty years on active duty in the
United States Army and was on the faculty at Stetson University,

(42:09):
where he led the trial team to the number one
ranking for twelve years. He also wrote the book actually
lots of books on trial advocacy, including one he co
authored with his daughter Laura. How's the inter of your
semester wrapping up? You know, we're all busier than we
have any right to be, uh, particularly the trial team,

(42:31):
because we're not done with competitions except for National Trial League,
which we've got going on. I love my dad a
great deal He's my hero. He's he's who I want
to be when I grew up. I've modeled my career
after him. I have very fond memories of when Daddy
started law school. I started kindergarten. So daddy and daughter
used to get up in the morning and go to

(42:51):
school together. Right, he would drop me off at school,
and my whole life it's kind of been like that.
He's provided me with unending opportunities. Well, and you see
you see that habit in in some of the competitions
where people are picking one factor two facts and over
dramatizing it and relying on that. I just I don't
know how to square that with the obligation that we
have to educate lawyers. Right Like, I'm not going to

(43:14):
teach my students how to act. That's not my job.
My job is to teach them how to advocate. I
get them. But if you'll think about it for a minute,
you have to train them to deal with the person
who's all show and no go, so that when they
run into that in the real world, they know how
to take them apart. So how do we how do
I fix it for next semester? My instinct is to

(43:35):
keep teaching the way that I have been teaching and
have the conversations with the students that I've been having
in terms of this works, this doesn't. This is why
we have to cool the emotion out of these Midwestern
kids at a greater level so that it comes through
the camera. Because what's happening is is that they tend
to be selfis facing, standing upright, polite young men and

(43:58):
women right, and then you put the lens of the
camera on top of that, the camera creates this barrier
to communication. Well, I got a navy blue suit with
a nice blue charve tie, so I think I'm looking

(44:22):
pretty presidential. To give Tyler another shot at mock trial,
coach Laura Rose has put him on a team of
two ells for the Capital City Challenge, hosted by American
University in Washington, d C. And held this year online.
There's a lot of schools in it, schools from the
East that we we saw last semester in the Hofst competition,

(44:46):
some pretty big time schools, So we're going to give
them our best, but we're kind of represent the Midwest
here in South Dakota. The case is set in the
fictional city of Washingtonia and it gives Tyler another workout
with medical details. The USD team is defending Dr Pierre Lagren.
The doctor's crime he impregnated a patient with his own

(45:08):
seamen instead of her husband's, which meant their new baby
was not a bill and marrow match for their older
child who was dying of leukemia. I will be doing
a cross examination of the state's witness, the mother or
father in this case, and then I'll be doing a
direct examination of Pierre la Grand. He's the doctor that's

(45:30):
on trial being charged with second degree murder and fraud.
So hopefully he kind of comes across as human or empathetic.
But this guy is a real tough character, very high
on himself, and didn't think he did anything wrong in
our practice. They said, I have to tone it down
a little bit because I'm crossing a mother that just
got lost her daughter and they're blaming the doctor. So

(45:53):
I have to show some empathy today and I can't
hit her too hard. Hey, can you get up here, man?
Call me look good? Yes, we guess turned this on
good evening, your honor. My name is Damian Basin, and I,

(46:14):
along with my co counsel, Tyler Veleski, represent the defendant
Dr Pierre Legron. In today's case, Howard University challenged South Dakota.
We have a few stipulations that we would like to
bring to the course attention. That is also in the
case finals the Howard team. It's a formidable opponent. Christ Boy.

(46:35):
Can you tell us a little bit about your daughter, Emma?
They do the direct exam of the mother in the
case she lost a daughter. Course, Emma, she was an
olden child. I mean, just look at her away, her
hair goes down and her bow and she brought so
much happiness to our lives. But now that she's gone,

(47:00):
it's just a feeling of being incomplete. And why is
Emma gone? That she just stated she unfortunately passed away
when she was eight years old, and she had leukemia
and didn't get a transplant that she needed. How long

(47:23):
I'm gonna be soft with her? Hello, Mr t Boys.
I know these are difficult circumstances, but I need you
to bear with me so we can get through this
together to find the truth. Today and he delivered you

(47:44):
a baby, Yes, my beautiful baby boy Marcus, take your time,
Mr Boy, Now you blame Dr Luke Grain for this?
Is that correct? I'm not blaming, just bringing lights of
the situation. We deserve justice. So you're assuming that had

(48:07):
Dr le Grain used Martin sperm, Emma would be alive,
just based on what other doctors had told me. I
want to talk about. You found out Marcus was not
as soon. The prosecution has them on the edge of
their seats with the closing. Yes, the do Boy family
wanted a baby, but they did not want the defendant's baby.

(48:30):
They wanted a baby that could help Emma. They could
have been born if he had used Mark sperm. This
doctor's deadly disregard is why we are asking you to
find the only verdict that the evidence supports and that
justice demands, find Pierre le Grain guilty of first degree

(48:52):
fraud and second degree depraved heart murder for the death
of eight year old Emma Duke Boy. Thank you, Thank you,
prosecution to the defense of a closing argument, Yes, your honor,
members of the jury, the Dubois family came to Dr
Legrain hoping for a miracle. They knew there was no guarantee,

(49:17):
but they had a plan. The state just told you
that Dr le Grain is not a miracle worker. That
is correct. He is not a miracle worker. Dr Legrain
cannot create magic out of dust. What he did by
choosing to use his own sperm was he provided a
chance for him, a chance that had he used Martin

(49:39):
Dubois sperm, would have been highly unlikely. But oftentimes, members
of the jury, when tragedy comes upon us, when we
lose a child, when our dreams and expectations are not met,
oftentimes and our grief and our pain and our suffering,
we look for somebody to blame. We look for a scapegoat,

(50:02):
because that is the easy route. And today the state
has chosen. While the two l's battle it out at
the Capital City Challenge, graduating three, al Matt Skinner is
cleaning out his desk at the Public Defender's Office, I'd
be over, should we? Uh? Do you are tradition for

(50:23):
the last time? Over to the source all my copies
for everybody since I made Matthew all Hart. It's kind
of like a newborn bird who just has his wet,

(50:45):
stubbly little feathers, but you think he can fly. Just
kick him out of the nest. Run a day in
the life of well, I suppose it's about that time. Huh.
I'll keep you posted on that suppression and then if
it does get appealed or whatever, or if it does

(51:05):
have a trial, we'll probably peel you in and have
you come second chair across some more cops. All right,
hopefully it'll be an actual turn. Yeah, all right, man,
Well walk you out here. I'm sure I'll stop by.
I gotta turn this into Tracy up the old time sheets,

(51:27):
last one. Are you still here? Did a did a
coffee run, But I'm out. Thank you for the semester
and everything. P. D o Ver the summer past two
summers is great. I learned a lot. We did a
trade job today. Thank you. So we appreciate everything. Thanks

(51:49):
for everything. I appreciate it. We'll see you later, all right, man,
we'll see you. Yeah. I forgot my bag in your try.

(52:10):
We gotta jump on a zoom in with Rose. I'm
trying to get us on it right now. Okay, just
told me what yea is she about Ray Ripple's apart.
I thought we did good. Yeah, well she's gonna yell well,
at least this guy is not going to jail because
it's not a real case. Back on campus, the South

(52:31):
Dakota team had good responses from the judges, and then
Mr MOLLSQUI you have a really great natural presence and
and like I mean, I don't know if it's improvisation,
but it feels like like, especially over zoom, it's so
hard not to feel like everyone's just like hello, Miami
is Kyl and you know, and I thought you had
a really great way of being able to show like

(52:52):
a natural presence and responding to witnesses in a great way.
And a great job, and good luck for the rest
of the round, Thank you, thank you. But they are
anxiously awaiting feedback from their toughest critic. I think the
round overall went particularly well. I thought you both were
deadly on cross examination in terms of overall skills. One

(53:15):
thing that I want to talk about in particular, Tyler,
you're closing the line. Dr le Grain is not a
mirrable worker, and you cannot create magic out of dust.
That was a beautiful life, that was beautifully, beautifully dead.
But what I need from you, you've got to get organized,
and you've got to pick where you're sticking your ending tomorrow.
We'll get it. We'll get if I get to go
to it's gonna better tonight. When you're not gonna sleep,

(53:39):
because you're not going to sleep no matter what I
tell you. And perhaps you should pick the path. You
gotta pick for like three things that you're going to
spend your time on. And then you got to plot
out that last paragraph with that American flat behind you.
I should see it start waving in non existence South
Dakota wind. I should see it blown like it's down
on the damn rariy in the middle of the winter, Tyler.

(54:00):
And I'll get it. I'll get it. I'll get it good,
good because you can. Because guys, there was some true
brilliant throughout this entire trial from both of you and
all of the skills. Okay, look you walked into the
room and you said, yeah, we can do this too,
and you refuse to be denied. The fact that you

(54:21):
got complimented on your evidentiary arguments is a big deal
at these competitions. Shake off whatever it is that you're
beating yourself up about in your head, because I can
see it on both of your faces. Knock it off. Well,
we thought this was going to be a bunch. And
Professor Rose, look, you want me to do the part
where I where I show you at I can chew
you out on I think you know what The format

(54:41):
for objection is objection legal basis. That is your rule, analysis, conclusion.
You know what that is. You spent all that semester
doing an evidence. It's like there's a method to demandness, gentlemen.
It's like there's a reason that we argue things in
class the way that we did. I want you to
focus on the hind points. I want you to fo
was on the great things that you did. This is

(55:02):
a learning experience. We are learning and we are growing.
You hold your own against Howard. You should be proud
of that. Now what do you all need to do?
You need to go to the hell of then you
sho got to howl around tomorrow against Georgia, But for
tonight should be proud. You should be proud of the effort,
and you should be proud of about you pushed the
work that you won't put into This is clear, thank you.

(55:25):
None of us gets through life, so everybody is standing
on the shoulders of the people that came before them.
I caught up with Coach Rose a little later that day.
You and I both know anybody could be an advocate,
but not everybody could be a trial lawyer fair. You
have to learn to be able to spot what's going
on in your case and here that moment when the
jury kind of shifts and you can feel that moment

(55:47):
where they've made a decision about something and lean into
that thing that they've made a decision about because it's
working for you. That's advocacy, the ability to adjust in
to communicate on this very human level about these very
human subjects so that we can continue to speak truth
to power and protect democracy. My students always laugh at
me because they say that I like to get on
a soapbox about that, but it's the truth. The American

(56:09):
trial system is the thing that stands in the way
of the government and corporations being able to run ramshot
over people. As Tyler and the team pack up for
the day, they realize this maybe their last tournament of
the year. She wasn't too bad. I knew she was
going to call us some criticism there. It was well deserved,

(56:30):
but she said we had moments of brilliance, so I'll
take it. Yeah, I'm always gonna Monday, you know, always
look back and think of glad I've done better. But
I'm exhausted right now. I feel like I gave it everything.
We're all two else as well. But even with that,
the one thing I think everyone said is, I mean
we held our own with a very good team, and

(56:50):
Howard basically said, hey, we want to go up against USD.
For real reason they challenged us was because they knew
that they thought they could push us around, and I
think we should because we're the under doll. Hey, if
you're gonna call out, you know, the University of South Dakota,
we're gonna stand around. We're gonna hold it around against anybody,

(57:12):
you know. Coach Rose talks about South Dakota nice out
on the prairie. Folks will play hardball if they have to.
Years ago, before leaving for Harvard, the young Ron Veleski
decided to go for a bike ride. I don't travel
as much as I used to. I don't know if
I'll ever have the opportunity to do that. Foot on

(57:37):
Biggert soil of the standing rock, we'll see. I had
to do the idea of riding my bicycle from here
on to the Black Hills, and a good friend of mine,
whom I played football and basketball against in high school,

(58:00):
we decided we get ten speed bicycles and leave from
here on South Dakota and ride our bikes to uh
Rapid City. And we did. We made it four days
and we toured around out there. We got a little
tired of of biking, so he decided to take a
bus home. I decided to ride my bike home. But

(58:23):
before I rode my bike home, I decided that I'd
gone a little hitchhiking tour. And I did hitchhike up
to the reservation and I visited my mother and we
spent some time together before I came back and left
for college. I did reconnect with my mother in that respect,

(58:45):
and that was the first time. I also spawned my
father sixteen. I guess seventeen when I saw my father
first met him. That's another whole story. We don't have
time for all that, just having me disteystyst Disney shot.

(59:45):
That's next time on class Action. Class Action is a
production of I Heart Radio and Sound Argument, Created, produced
and edited by Kevin Huffman and Lisa Gray. This episod so.
It was written by Wendy Nardi. Executive producers are Taylor
Chakogne and Katrina Norville. Sound design, editing and mixing by

(01:00:10):
Evan Tyre, and Taylor Chakoy. This episode had additional fuel
production by Paul Ebsen and Malia Lukomski. Additional editing by
Carl K. Robinson. Archival audio provided by Victoria Wits in
South Dakota Public Broadcasting. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio,

(01:00:32):
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