April 4, 2025 • 49 mins
Before you fell in love with Bozoma Saint John on The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, we had her on the podcast! Enjoy this flashback episode and learn all about how the brilliant Boz built her marketing career while overcoming some incredibly hard times. Inspiring is an understatement!
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hi everyone, I'm Rachel Zoe and you're listening to Climbing
in Heels for your weekly dose of glamour, inspiration and fun.
If I were to do an intro that I included
all of the executive roles that this woman has held
and the amazing recognition that she's gotten throughout her career,
I would literally be here for days, Bosima or both.
(00:28):
Saint John has been a major for US in marketing
for some of the biggest, most successful companies around, corporations
like Pepsi, Apple Music, and.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Netflix, just to name a few.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
She's not only used her experience in marketing to educate others,
but she also has shared her own personal brief story
to empower others to live an urgent and present life.
She also happens to be unbelievably fabulous and glamorous and
unapologetically herself. I am so thrilled she's on the pod today,
So every one, meet Boss Saint John.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
I am so excited. So let's jump right into it.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
You're like Gorge and you're doing it, so here we go.
I want to talk to you about so many things,
but I think I first want to talk about sort
of like highlights of childhood like an amazing kid? Were
you dynamic? Were you like I got to get out
of here? Where were you born?
Speaker 2 (01:21):
I mean? And I know, but I want you to share?
Speaker 3 (01:23):
So yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, Well even before I get
to that, can I just tell you that I'm so
obsessed with the name of this podcast, Like I am,
I'm a real like marketing nerd. Yeah, you know, like me.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Too, I'm a closet marketing nerd.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
I'm like I could, I will really like, don't take
me to a cocktail party and then like I get
stuck in the corner with somebody who likes a little
bit about marketing, I will goo. And so I saw
theme of this podcast and I was just like, this
is so damn brilliant.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Yes, well, because you know what that means.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
You know exactly what that means. You know how hard
that is. You know exactly the type of person we're
talking about. You know, we know the ambition that it's
going to require. Like, girl, if you slip a little
bit with that leg stiletto, grab mom with the other arms,
you know.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
What I mean?
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Correct, It's exact. And I always tell people it's like,
you know, some of the amazing women I've had in here,
They're like, you know, I don't wear heels.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
I'm like, you know what this means? Like, you know
what this means.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
You know what this means.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
It's about embracing the powers of femininity and whatever that
means to you while you're crushing great.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
This that's that's the whole thing. So that's what I
first one to say.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
I love that. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
It means a lot to me because naming things is everything.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Yes, the name, fabulous name. So how did I get here? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (02:44):
I mean listen, share as much or as little you
can give me the flash to like, really the meat
if you want, whatever, whatever works for you.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
I just like to know why you're you.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Yeah, I do feel like my child. I mean, I
think everybody's childhood really does frame who they are. But
I think there's some people who really come into themselves,
like in their twenties or in their thirties or maybe
even your forties. But I came to myself at twelve,
it really did, you know. It's like, So I was
born in the US in Middletown, Connecticut. My dad was
(03:14):
getting two PhDs at Wesley University. He's an immigrant United States. Yeah,
He was an immigrant from Ghana. My mom joined him
here and they were like the classic immigrant story, you know,
my dad came to get a better education, better way
of life. But he's truly a Pan Africanist, you know,
like one of those like sixties type guys who was like, yeah,
(03:36):
power to the people, you know, were Africa. Yeah. And
so what was happening at the time is that there
was this you know movement it was WB Duvoyce called
the Town to tenth, you know, where it's like scooped
up the top ten percent of brain power and put
them in the US and the UK and you know
other places. My dad was one of those people. But
(03:58):
he decided that he didn't want to stay in the US.
He went back to Donna, you know, and after teaching university,
he joined politics and was in a government that was
sadly overthrown about you know, three years into the administration,
and that's what eventually drove us back, you know, to
the US. But you know, we were in Kenya, and
(04:18):
we were in California and DC and like all these places.
So my childhood was very chaotic. You know, I moved
around a lot, and for me, I think part of
the reason why I say I came to myself at
twelve is that we finally settled in Colorado Springs, Colorado.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
I was twelve, random, seventh girl. Okay, seven, great.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Right when you're like boom teenager, cool girl.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
And I'm also super tall. I've been like literally six
feet tall since I was like thirteen.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
I just want you to know to me, that's like
showing off. I just want you to I just like
crushed my soul. I do know that I have zero
sympathy for my friends that are like I was so awkward,
and when I was in school, I'm like.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Okay, but at twelve, you don't want to be six
weeks old. I'm telling you, okay. And then plus I
was like okay, maybe okay, you're you're the one I
did not. I would have happily traded places with everybody else,
you know what I mean. And I'm serious, I would traded.
I would have I would rather have been blonde, I
would rather have blue eyes. I wanted to have white skin.
(05:27):
I wanted to be shorter, I wanted not to top
of an accent. I didn't want the food I ate
at home, like all of the things. I was like
I didn't want to be different from anybody else in
Cardas Breaks. But God bless my mother. God blessed my mother,
who in our household. She's a stay at home mom.
She was adamant about her pride for not just being black,
(05:52):
but being after, you know, and it forced me into
my own I won't even say acceptance with celebration. You know,
it's super hard. It's pretty enough. Like imagine when the
teacher is like calling out the names and I'm just like,
oh my gosh, she's gonna mess up in it. Yeah,
(06:14):
the dread of it, you know what I mean. I
was just like, call me some nicknames. I don't know,
you know. But my mother was like, hey, look, when
your little girlfriends come over here, you know, to come
hang out at the house or sleep over whatever. Finally,
when I've been accepted into the cool girls club, you know,
and they were coming over and I was like, please,
can we have some pizza or like, can you get
(06:36):
McDonald's or like something that they would like, and she.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Was make my friends, make my friends happy.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
Look yes, and she was like, no, we're not going
to do that. We're I'm gonna make them some Ghanian
food and we're gonna eat that. And I was like, please,
I beg you like anything but that girl, let me
tell you how. My best friend, Summer okay, who was
the epitome of like the call Springs girl right, her
(07:03):
name is Summer. I mean, come on, give me a break.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Like it's like she's just oh, I have the visual.
I have the visual.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
You already have the blondest hair, the bluest eyes, the
fairest skin.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Beautiful English. I got captain the cheerleading squad. That girl, Okay,
someone's my best friend. And Summer came to visit me
like two weeks ago, and my mom lives very close
by to me, and she was like, can I know
your mom's finished stew And I'm like, oh my god, her,
you said, thirty years later, you're still asking for my
(07:33):
mom's Ghanian food, you know what I mean. And so
it's that kind of you know, real middle you know,
which would not allow for me to be ashamed of
my name, wouldn't allow me to be ashamed of my heritage,
wouldn't allow me to be ashamed of my food. So, girl,
when I tell you that, when I walk into rooms
and people are like, oh, how are you so confident.
(07:55):
This room is a little bit but I'm just like,
are you like you didn't grow up with my mom.
But my mom was like, girl, they are going to
bend to you. You are not going to bend to them.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
You are not assessed with her. I'm obsessed with her.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
She's also completely bald and fierce.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
She's probably like stunning with not like a rink.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
Face exactly serves face for days, for days, but yeah,
I mean she so for me, it's like, you know,
my childhood was that, but it was also me being
obsessed with pop culture because at the time, you know,
it's like I just wanted to fit in. So I
wanted to figure out, okay, like what what does everybody
like to do? What do they like to talk about?
You know, what is cool to them? And I found that,
(08:39):
like this very studied approach of like understanding pop culture
just like normal conversation, was also a natural curiosity which
I've never lost. So it's like, as a marketer, it
serves me so beautifully because I want to know everything.
I want everything about fashion, I want on everything about sports,
I want to know about film, I want to know
about politics, I want to know out give me any topic, girl,
(09:02):
I promise you I know something about it.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
I'm I'm obsessed.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
So okay, no, because you know, I so believe in
And that's why I always like to touch on childhood because
I do think especially my kids now are ten and thirteen,
and I'm watching them form into these people, and I'm like,
I don't think anyone tells parents when they have their
kids how important that like zero to fourteen is right,
(09:28):
Like it's all important, right until they leave you, it's
all important and even after that.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
But yeah, but that is the like give.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Them the confidence, get like, let them be them, try
and teach them. It's okay to beat them. So what
your mom did especially then, right because this is not
a year ago, you know, I think easier now probably
like good for her.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
And also in the middle of Colorado Springs, so.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
Okay, in the middle of Coado Springs to be like, girl,
we're not going to have pizza hut, you know what
I mean. She's like, no, we're not having pizza hut.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Having spinach still deal with that.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
That's right exactly, And it's gonna be hot with Pepper
and your little white friends are gonna have their rosy
cheeks and you know what I mean, they're just gonna cry.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
I love this.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Okay, So how long did you stay there? Like at
what point did you peace out from there?
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Where you were like I know?
Speaker 3 (10:20):
Right? Well, you know, Here's what's so funny is that
people ask me where I'm from or like where's home?
I would say, you do, I'd say College Springs because
it feels like that those were the like formative.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Years, like where you became.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
Yes, but it was only like five years of my life,
and so now I think about it, I'm just like, God,
what a small amount of time. But it was so
impactful to me as who I am that it's where
I say I'm from. Although I grew up in so
many places, and when I was eighteen and ready to
go to college, girl, I was out of there. Yeah,
I was like, first, give me to the East Coast,
let me go.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
But I would I would argue to say twelve to seventeen.
I mean that those are the years where, like right,
you make or break as it either fall off or
you keep going.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
Exactly like those formed of years solidified. I think my personality,
you know, the curiosity they have about people, you know,
my empathy for people, and for you know, everyone who
has ever othered you know, it's like all of that
stuff was born there.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
You had a fearless mom too, which I would venture
to say that like some of the most successful women
I know, in fact likely all come from fearless moms,
strong moms, and also like very often single moms. So
why marketing and where do you go to school? Because
marketing is something that I always talk about because if
(11:45):
I had a penny for every girl, right like as
a senior in college, they're like, I think I just
want to be in marketing, And I'm like, okay, I
need you to understand the importance of marketing.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Yes, and like, yes, what of means?
Speaker 2 (11:59):
It doesn't all?
Speaker 1 (12:00):
So like marketing makes or breaks not just a brand,
but a person. And you could take the least talented
singer and they go to number one because the marketing.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
They may not stay there.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
But they may not stay there, I mean there are
some tricks to help them, say for at least a
little bit, you know what I.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Mean, talent.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
But you're right, You're right. I had the opposite, like
sort of upbringing where I didn't know marketing was actually
a career for an opportunity. Like I said, my parents
are immigrants. They were very clear that there were only
three professions maybe four, that I could do. I could
be a doctor, a lawyer, an engineer, perhaps an accountant,
(12:42):
but that was only like the very like if you
really couldn't do anything else, you know, sure, no kill me.
I was actually pre med in college Sewer. You know,
I did all of the things, you know, but when
I graduated, I definitely didn't want to go to med school.
But I didn't know what I wanted to do. And
(13:03):
I you know, I took the m cat like I
did all the things, and then I said, okay, well no,
I'm going to go to New York for a year.
And my parents were very against the idea. They refused
to you know, they would not support me in it
at all. Like they were like, okay, you go, you
manage it yourself, like whatever you pay for your own way,
do whatever you're going to do. We'll be over here
(13:24):
waiting for you when you're read for med school.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Okay, okay, I've heard this before. I mean, this is
this is not uncommon.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
Yes, but and the thing is that you know, it's like, look,
I have a daughter, she's fifteen. I can't imagine how
terrified I would be, you know, even at twenty one
if she were like in some big city by herself,
doesn't know a soul, you know, all that stuffe And so, like,
I think back to what I'm just like, either they
(13:52):
were like very confident in my survival skills.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
What didn't give a.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
Shit about me?
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Like I'm like, which one is?
Speaker 3 (14:00):
Look, I don't know where, you know, but you know,
God blessed, Like it really worked out because I knew
one person, actually one person that I had gone to
college with. She graduated a year before me, and she
was at Columbia Film School. She was getting her master's
and so I negotiated with her even then I had
the talent and negotiation of course, to be able to
(14:20):
stay on her couch. She had a roommate, her and
her roommate's couch, and I would cook, you know, that
was basically like my my contribution, and so I, you know,
would get up every day. And again, you know, we're
talking about twenty five years ago, so you know, there
was there weren't cell phones, so there was the corner
(14:40):
like the payphone.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Yeah, I was living there at the same time as it.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
Set and Broadway under the train, the one in the
nine across it, like on the corner of Floridita Human
Restaurant right there. And what I would do is I
would get up in the morning. I signed up for
like a temp agency, and I'd get up in the morning.
The first call was at seven thirty, and then you
call every fifteen minutes until you got play someplace, you know.
(15:07):
And I would go inside of Floridita in between the
times when I'd go to the pay phone to call,
and girl, I mean it was like that was like
just hard, hard hard knuckles, like just I didn't have
enough money for food. So the very kind lady who
I wish Rachel, I wish I could find this woman
(15:27):
who didn't speak English, only spoke Spanish. But somehow we're
able to communicate, you know. And every day she's like
I was too proud to also ask, you know what,
I mean, to slide me like a buttered roll, you know.
I And the first few times I was like, no, no, no,
I'm fine, it's okay, it's okay. I just you know,
I just want to sit down, it's okay, you know,
But girl, I was my mouth was watering, and I
(15:50):
was like, you know, so eventually one day I just
I took the damn buttered roll and she was so
happy and every day like I, you know, sometimes I
would and get a job. I want to get placed,
and so then i'm you know, come in and just
say bye for the day. She only knew a couple
of words in English, but she would say like she would,
she'd be like, you know, today's.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
The day, right today, this is your day, right right
right right, I feel and.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
I will never forget it. Like even now, you know,
in tough situations or like you know, when you get
antsy about a big decision or a deal you've got
to strike or whatever, I'm always like, today's day, Today's day.
It's going to happen today, you know. And it really
kept me going. And the thing is that, like, look,
Destiny came to meet me on that corner of one
(16:37):
hundred and Twain Fiftreet and Broadway. I gotta I called
in and Spike Lee have such This is like I
tell you, Destiny literally came and met me at that corner,
and I got a placement with Spike Lee because he
had assistant. You're okay, but but here's the thing.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
I mean, by the way, today was the day. Today
was today.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
It was today, that was the day. That was the day. Okay.
And I walked into that office thinking, okay, well I'm
here for like two or three days, right while he
finds the replacement. So let me make the best of it,
you know, like, let me not get in the way.
But you know, blah blah blah. And again, like I
swear to you, Destiny keeps meeting me in places. Because
(17:24):
that man walked into the office that day and as
he's passing by, I'm literally like, oh, you know, there's
Spike Lee. And he looks at me. I have like
my hair pulled back in a tight, you know, bun
in the back. I'm wearing like the only gray polyester
suit I have. I swear you was polsyll Of.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Course it was you cud, you couldn't eat? What were
you buy clothes?
Speaker 3 (17:45):
Was gonna be exactly no. And he says, and he
we're still friends now, and he remembers that his first
thought and words to me were, oh God, damn it,
they sent me miss America. And I was like, this
is America. And I had my retort. I was like
excuse me. I'm a pre med major from Wesleyan University
(18:07):
and I'm here to answer your phone.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
He was like, what the hell. But here's the thing, Rachel.
He had a manuscript under his arm. And because in
college I also studied African American authors and I took
a minor in African American English, and I was like, oh,
what do you have? And it was his script for Bamboozled,
(18:33):
a film that he was making it. And I asked
him if I could read it, and like, because I
was naive and stupid, I didn't know any better. And
so he hands me the manuscript like sure, here, here
you go. My first day, Rachel, first day, the first
time have met this man. And so he's like me,
go ahead and read it and give me your thoughts.
(18:55):
So I take a red pen two this manuscript. Girl.
He literally, if you ask him the story, he'll tell you.
I took a red pen to it. I made some corrections,
I made some suggestions to character development. Grammar was all
kind of off. I was like, why would people speak
(19:17):
this way? No, that's not the correcting. And that that
was really the start of everything, because he had started
an ad agency in partnership with D d B, which
is a storied you know, ad agency, I know, yeah,
four thirty seven Madison Avenue, you know. And it was
(19:40):
like anxiety KKR.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
There was like medium ye yes, yes, yes, there was like.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
You yes, there's like a story, big ones. Then he said,
you know you should stick around and I was like,
I have a job. I have a job, have a job.
So that was four years of working underneath Spike, like,
you know, learning his ways of managing, of being unapologetic
(20:09):
of his creativity and his discipline to it, and just
I mean, how much better do you get that, you know,
being an understudy to somebody of that caliber. But it
really sparked for me the idea that there was a
world of advertising and marketing that could be infused with
pop culture where my opinion could be important. You know,
(20:30):
it's like all of these things. And that's that's what
started it.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
That is such a sick story.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
First of all, I think your next book should be
called Today's the Day, Today's the Day, because I'm going
to take that with me if you don't mind if.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
I repress that.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
I think in living, whether you're in corporate or whether
you're an entrepreneur, whether you're trying to act or whatever,
saying whatever it is. I think you always have that
feeling of the you know, I talk with pretty much
anyone on the pod that it's this, it's this this, Yes, it's.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Not bally like this.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
Right, I've never like that.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
No, right, no, And so I think with that it's
nice to have those moments in your personal and professional
life where you wake up and go, today's the day.
And I myself, I would say I'm guilty of really
never doing that. I actually like go the other way,
which is like, oh, it's never happening, right. So that
was like, I really, I'm soaking that one up.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
If that's okay?
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Yes, yes, the day, the day, so.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
So okay, So this is so right? So then how
do you go from this? From this?
Speaker 3 (21:45):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Why why would one leave? And where do you go
after that? Because you're young at this point, right, you're
probably not even thirty, right, in your mid twenties.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
No, no, no, By the time I left Spikes twenty right, Yeah,
you know, so I'd worked for him, But the thing
is that he had given me such a gift, you know,
of appreciating my opinion, you know, not letting me feel
like I was too young to have a good idea.
In fact, it was my idea that led him to
(22:16):
It was just again a confluence of moments. You know.
It's like he was pitching PepsiCo for their business, for
their marketing business, or a slice of it anyway, and
they were looking for, you know, the next new like,
you know, spokesperson, but can he wanted it to be
(22:36):
a black performer. And at the time, I was out
in the streets in New York City and Beyonce had
just left Destiny's Child Casual and people were hating on her.
You know, at the time, I think people don't remember that.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
They were not happy.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
They were not Like when John Lennon left the Beatles,
it was like a huge issue.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
I mean they were literally, well, you're not going to succeed,
you know. Yeah, they were literally like, oh, you know, now,
you know, no solo artists has ever succeeded from a
girl group except for Diana Ross, and you're not gonna
be her, you know. And then she was also like
trying to act, and she was trying to do all
these things, and she was in a TV movie on
(23:19):
MTV called Carmen The hip hopera Okay, destroyed by critics.
I loved it. I thought it was brilliant, you know.
Speaker 4 (23:29):
What I mean.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
Like I was like, are you kidding me? Like we've
got opera, and we've got like like classic opera, and
you got Beyonce singing it. Oh, and they're people rapping
as well, like this this is incredible, you know. And
Spike was asking people around the office, you know, like
who they thought would be great as the spokes for
us and this and that and folks you know, were
(23:49):
on the billboard charts. They were, you know, calling out
names all these big artists. And I was like, I
think Beyonce is it. And everybody was like I don't
think you know, she's not gonna blah blah blah blah.
But Spike listened to me. Spike, he knows, and he
was like, Okay, we'll take a meeting with her. She
came in. I was always here, like, girl, you go
(24:11):
get them. You just you the baddest, you know, you know,
by the way, still friends with them, Still friends with
Miss Tina, and Miss Tina remembers that I was like, hmm, yep,
she's the one.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Beyonce, the fucking queen and anyone who says otherwise, I
will fight too.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
There were plenty of people who says she wasn't, but
Spike believed. And so by the time I was ready
to leave his agency, he had given me the confidence
that like, look, you're never too young to have the
best idea in the room, you know, like, you know,
(24:49):
because everybody else might have the criteria, might have the education,
might have the credentials, but if you have a great idea,
you're gonna win. Yeah, this is right. So when I
was ready to leave, at the same time, PepsiCo was looking,
you know, to hire some more people, and they were
going to do it in an untraditional way because usually
(25:11):
the marketers come from you know, the big you know,
like MBAs. And I was still over here with my
mcat that was about to expire, you know what I mean,
and like, oh, yeah, I'm not gonna go med school
and I'm definitely not getting an NBA. You can forget that.
So they offered me a job, which again it's like
(25:33):
Destiny came in to meet me again, and I was like,
oh my god, I think I have to take this opportunity.
Even though there's nobody else liked me because everybody else
came together in a class with their other NBA students
were interns, and then they got offers to be you know,
assistant brand managers.
Speaker 4 (25:48):
Like there was a through the correct and here I
was climbing through the window talking about I'm a huge
believer of climbing through the window.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
In fact, everything I've done in my life is probably
climbing through the window. I've never I don't have the
patience for this, you know, I don't.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
I don't have it, Rachel, I don't. So now it's
like we're not just climbing in heels. We're climbing in
heels through the window, you know what I mean? Like
that we through the window.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
That's how we came in a hundred and then but
then you like went on to like Uber Endeavor Apple
like nets, right, so you have like so is it
like you kind of go somewhere and you're like, Okay,
I'm here for a reason and a purpose.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
I'm gonna do my thing.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
And then when I'm like okay, we're good here, then
it's like we move on, yes right, yes.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
Yes, yes, And I'm so glad for the experience because
the thing is that look looking back at my career.
People will be like, oh, this is great strategy, a
great plan, blah blah blah. You named all the companies,
c suite. I'm in the Hall of fame. I'm at
the Hall of achievement. I'm a bill board, like I've
got all the credentials. So, like, you know, for me,
(27:06):
it's like I have had a career which has just
been boom boom boom boom, boom, boom boom, right, but
people will look at it and be like, oh my god,
this is a brilliant strategy. I can't believe she moved here.
She moved here, she moved here. But Rachel, I promise you,
I promise you. It has been at my own pace
against a lot of advice everyone who has been like,
oh no, don't do that, don't go there. That company
(27:29):
is shit, that manager's terrible, that CEO is crazy, like
all of the things along my entire career even now. Okay,
so I'm like, thank God that the experiences I've had
have made me have to listen to myself and only myself,
(27:50):
Like I keep my own counsel. I don't ask anybody
for their advice on what career move. I should mean
thank God, because imagine if I listen to somebody else,
I'd be still sitting back overin middle management. Yeah, trying
to figure out who that I should wear today? False?
Is it a being here with you and my friend
in sequence and my hearings.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
I want to talk to if I can love you
so much. I want to talk to you just quickly
about social media because it's something I get asked a lot,
sort of the impact on the fashion industry and everything
else marketing at this point, you know, as someone who
has sort of like you know, I've had those are report.
(28:31):
I've done all social media as I've done television, have
done all the things I wouldn't at this point. You know,
social media for me started as ten percent of my life.
Now it is I can't even say what percentage it
is because it's.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
It's such a big part.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Of everything I do in terms of amplification. So being
that you are the queen, how like, what are your
thoughts on that? Because when you started it wasn't about that, right,
and so do you feel that it's only good? Do
you feel that it's like, I just want to understand
your thoughts on that, because I have I have love
(29:13):
hates with it for sure, you know.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
But yeah, and fair, fair, But here's the thing I
think for me, social media is just another platform, yeah,
to tell us story, you know. So for me, it's
like I don't look at social media and think like,
oh my god, it's like you know, the next worst thing,
or it's like the greatest thing ever. It's just another platform.
So it's like the point is that mastery of the narrative,
(29:37):
mastery of your story, mastery of the message, and then
figuring out what platform is going to work best on,
because let's not forget it that, like, you know, platforms
from like the Roman Empire are still available today.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
You know.
Speaker 3 (29:49):
It's like when they went in like tagged, you know,
like a sign in the town square. They're called billboards
and it's in Times Square right now. Okay, so I'm like,
look those things still exist.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
Which I still by the way, very much same same. Yeah,
a bus, a bus side, a bus.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
Side, Okay, some like graffiti, I believe, with all of
the stuff. So it's like social media is like the
challenge that we have right for creators like you, like me,
like whomever. It doesn't matter if you have seven million
followers or three hundred. It's that what story are you
telling and make sure it's appropriate for the platform that
(30:27):
you're telling it in. Because there's something that's going to
be really great for the Billboarding Times Square that's not
going to work on Twitter, or there's something that's going
to be really great on TikTok that is not going
to work on TV, you know. So it's like that
is actually where the mastery of marketing then plays, because
it's like, Okay, let me figure out what part of
the story works on what platform and then hit them
(30:48):
all at the same time like lasers, you know. And
that's how you get a complete and total picture where
you can shift the brand narrative where you can make
somebody go to them one on Billboard charts when they
have no talent. Sure, I'm not speaking about.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Anybody, listen, Listen. I was in New York City working
in the pop world when you were there. So I'm
just gonna say marketing plays a big, big role, big,
big big. I want to talk to you about The
Urgent Life. I want to talk to you about the
Urgent Life because I want to you know, I know
a little bit about why you wrote this book, but
(31:25):
I want I want to hear it from you because
I think it's important to share with our listeners, because
I really love the title. Like I said, I'm a
title nerd, but I want you to speak to it
a little bit because I think it's super important.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
Thank you, Thank you well. I've been asked to write
a book for some time because I think after like
I got my third C suite job, people were like, wait,
hold on, does she have like that? Can't just be
lust but have something so, you know, I was pitched
all of the books like I should write the you know,
the Corner Suite for Dummies, you know, girl boss in
(31:58):
the C suite, like, you know, all these time to
think that. I was like, you know what I could
do that maybe one day I will write the book.
But it felt like, look, you don't become fierce or
badass or like have the kind of grit that it
requires to get to these offices without having gone through
some shit.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
Yeah, you know, without taking the buttered roll.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
Oh, without taking the buttered roll, you know. And I
felt like a lot of times, leaders, especially in the
corporate world, hide their personal stories behind these walls because
they have to appear perfect. You know, you have to
appear like, oh, nothing is ever wrong. I never in doubt.
(32:39):
There's never a moment where I cry or forget what
I'm gonna say or have a bad day. Like I'm
always the perfect leader. My teams are going to follow
me to the end, you know. And I'm just like,
but that actually is not how human beings behave. And oh,
by the way, everybody's lying. Sure. So I thought better
to write my memoir because I was like, you want
to get to the corner office. Well, first of all,
(33:03):
you have to face the demons that are in your life.
You also have to think about the ways in which
you are actually not the same person that you were,
and utilize all of those things to be a more
empathetic leader, a leader that people trust, you know, one
that people are like, Oh, she's been through something and
I'm going through something. I will follow her. I will
listen to her. She understands, you know. And so my
(33:25):
book The Urgent Life was really based on my traumas,
you know, the loss in my life, the ways in
which sometimes life has just shit on me. Ye, you know,
my need to live a really big life because my
husband passed away from cancer ten years ago, almost eleven.
(33:47):
Now just at the height of like, you know, I
was really starting to break through the ceiling, you know, crash.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
And you had a young daughter at the time.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
Yeah, my daughter was four, and it was just like
one of those things where you're just like, oh my God,
like how okay? You know, I had put Beyonce on
the Super Bowl halftime stage that year, and my career
was just Pa Pa pal sing it, you know. And
it's like, my daughter's four and we're you know, living
in Manhattan.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
We're living our life. How does this happen?
Speaker 3 (34:20):
You've got we got decades to go. And then he's
diagnosed with Burkett's lymphoma in May of twenty thirteen, which
is a blood cancer, and six months later he was dead.
And I it was just I don't even know how
to describe like it was just it was earth shattering.
(34:42):
It was devastating. It was all of the things, like
all the fear and hurt, and like I was mad
at God. My call was kissed, you know, and like,
what did you do this? Anyway?
Speaker 1 (34:55):
He just fell into a crack in the earth. Yeah,
Like actually, you know, like actually I always say like
when those things happen, it's like if you had a
visual it's like you're standing there and you're happy, and
then all of a sudden, the entire earth cracks beneath
you and you fall and you're like, write it.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
That's it, that's it.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
And it's like this black hole and you're like, how
the how do I get out of here? You know?
And it's why I do live an urgent life now,
because I'm like, it's not really about like speed and time.
I'm not trying to like raise the clock. That's really
not what I want to do is live like the
fullest life that I can. And that's what the urgency
(35:37):
is about, because like, you don't know when we're going
to go, And I don't think that that's ay or
a sad thing to say. I just think because it's
very inspirational because I'm like, Earl, look, when it's my
time to go, you will know that I've been here.
You will know, you will feel it, and you'll be like, damn,
that's a good one lost, you know what I mean?
Because I'm living I'm living the biggest life that I
(35:59):
can and I refuse for anyone to tell me, oh,
you know what do it on the next one? Oh,
wait and do it later. Oh no, I don't think
that's right for you. Who are you talking to woo me? No,
you can't be talking to me like this is my life. Yeah,
this is my life. And so that's why it's like
when people try to deny me.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Anything, You're like, I'm sorry, no.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
No, okay, I'm living my own urgent life. You should
live yours, and you're probably happier if you do that.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Yeah, And I love it because the urgent life, like
it is such a profound statement, and it is something
that I don't think. I know, I don't live like
that enough. I know it here that we need to
do it. And I would say my parents are eighty
three and eighty seven. They live every day like it is,
(36:50):
and they have always. They have always They're like, we
could get hit by a bus tomorrow. We need to
do this. And I'm like, hey, you're gonna spend every
dollar you have, Like, oh my god. It's like there's
some gray area here, right, there's some middle ground here.
But I love it, and I think and I think
you're coming from this place of actual experience and why,
(37:13):
And I think it's a really good thing for us
to learn because you've been through it. You have been
through it, and I think we've all been through it
in different ways. But I think showing vulnerability as a
major player in any field, as a known boss badass,
there is this expectation that I'm not sure people put
(37:34):
on us, that we put on ourselves. Is I'm good,
We're good, I'm good, I'm fine, We're good. What do
you mean I'm not I'm I'm good.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Of course I'm.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
Good, And you're basically like, it's cool to not be good,
and it's cool to like, you know, yes, yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
Yes, it's actually better.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Yeah, because human The thing is.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
That I am a better leader because I'm a widow.
I'm a better leader because I'm a single mom. I'm
a better leader because I have experienced, you know, someone
really close to me who died by suicide. I'm a
better leader because I have lost a child. Like I'm
a better leader because of so many things in my
(38:16):
life that have rocked me. And I've been able to
figure out, Okay, like, what's the ways in which I
come back to life? You know, so many times, time
after time after time, And so I have empathy for
the world, and I have empathy for people and I
will meet somebody and say, oh my god, like you know,
whatever you're going through, like okay, you take your time,
(38:39):
you do what you need to do, or maybe I
can help in some way, or the fact that, yes,
I have been the other in a room, I have
been the child of the immigrant where people are not
giving them the credit they deserve. You know. It's like,
I've been all of those things, and so I think
I'm just a better human for having gone through all
of these things.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
And that's what you take from it, because you have
to write. It's really hard to find that silver lining
sometimes because you're like, fuck off, why did this hop been?
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Like what?
Speaker 3 (39:10):
Yes? Yes? And sometimes there are those days too, yeah,
of course you know what.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
I'm just like, no, literally every better and you're just
like why today?
Speaker 2 (39:18):
You know?
Speaker 3 (39:19):
But I do think that if we were all more
honesty about the depths of our pain, the fear in
our transitions, you know, joy and the triumph once you
finally get to the thing, without you know, being like,
oh you have to somehow fake humble, like what girl,
(39:39):
when I reached the mountaintop, I'll be the first one
who's up there, like.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
I'm right.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
Because I'm get in the valley. Are you kidding me?
You know how hard it was to get up there?
You know how climbing in heels? You know how hard
it was?
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Wait to your six feet barefoot? Right? You're six feet
for right? And do you still wear heels?
Speaker 3 (40:03):
I still wear four?
Speaker 2 (40:04):
That is so mean.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
See my real friends that are doll like you, they
were maybe a kid meal around me just to be nice,
and they duck, and they duck for me, they squat.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
I will there's not one way on God's green earth
if you will catch me in a kid meal, okay,
in the weight.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
So when I get to meet you, would hug you
in person. You're not gonna like, just do this a little.
Speaker 3 (40:29):
Bit, just to no grandma. I'm gonna hug you to
my navel.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
Okay right here, a fine fine, By the way, don't
kid yourself. I'm gonna text you pictures of me and
some of the models that I've worked with my career
where I literally come up to their hip. Their leg
is like to my actually like their their leg actually
ends at my head.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
Yeah, true story, true story.
Speaker 3 (40:51):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
And so you are so next level and I don't
even know I know that you're probably gonna say you
have so much you want to do, so much left
to do, but I do. I am curious about what
is like now and what is like the next thing,
if there is a next thing, because I know you're
not taking a beat. I know there's no way you're
taking a beat, not in this urgent life.
Speaker 3 (41:13):
Hell no, no, not in this urgent life.
Speaker 4 (41:16):
No.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
But that's the thing is that I've been so I
am really excited about every evolution that I have. You know,
I'm always so like I anticipated with a lot of joy.
And when I left Netflix, I was a global CMO.
To write my book, I thought I was going to
like take a little sabbatical, you know, I publish my
(41:39):
book and then go back. And it was really scary
to be like, oh shit, like I don't think I'm like,
I don't think I want to go back, you know,
And my ego was playing tricks on me, you know,
the like, oh, well but now I don't have this
big company behind me. Who the hell am I? You know,
like I walk into you and people like, oh that's
you know, that's the CMO of I don't have that.
(42:01):
So I was fighting that the identity shift.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Do I need that title. Do I need that title
to exist?
Speaker 3 (42:09):
Yes, in order to validate who I am. And I
know that. You know, maybe a lot of people would say,
but oh my god, but you're so unapologetic, you're so fearless,
and I'm like, yeah, but I still got an ego. Yeah,
I still I still feel the pain of like identity
shift when something in your life goes away and therefore
you're no longer this person that you told the whole
world you were. I mean, yeah, there were days when
(42:32):
I literally sat in my bed and I was like,
I don't want to go outside. I don't want to
go to the party because people a going to ask
me what are you doing now? And I'm like, oh
my god, are you kidding me?
Speaker 2 (42:39):
You know the worst question, by the way.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
I hate that question.
Speaker 2 (42:43):
I literally see.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
It At every event I go to, there's someone asking someone, so,
what are you working on?
Speaker 2 (42:50):
What are you doing now?
Speaker 1 (42:51):
And it's that and behind it is that worry you good?
Speaker 2 (42:55):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (42:56):
Yeah, exactly like that.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
I'm good.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
I've been working for thirty fucking years, exactly exactly.
Speaker 3 (43:01):
Look, I'm fine, you know. I started to answer like
all the you know, crazy things like I would say
stuff like oh, I'm working on a on a space
flight to March. And people would be like you are,
and I'm like, yes, bitch, I am.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
And that sound yeah, They're gonna go really.
Speaker 3 (43:16):
Like, yeah, oh, I have an idea for you. No,
you don't sit down after taking the time from my book,
I you know, just sat back and really for the
I think, for the first time in my life, for
the first time in my career anyway, I was like,
what do I actually want to do now, you know,
not not necessarily like the linear climbing the ladder, but like,
(43:37):
what do I actually want to do? And I had
so many thoughts and so many ideas, and then opportunities
popped up for me, you know, whether it was like
just you know, speaking engagements that I started doing and
being able to communicate to other people how I do
this and how I did it, and you know the
motivation of it all, of course, and then I decided that,
(43:59):
you know what, I think, I definitely want to work
for myself. You know, I want to create my own company.
I want to create my own business. Like I've put
in so many years working for other people and building
their companies. It's about time, you know that I did
something for myself, and so I started exploring that, and
then I got the uh to talk to the producers
(44:22):
of the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, and I was like, bitch,
what's out here? I come, you know, And it's it's
just it's such a fascinating life because.
Speaker 2 (44:36):
Like you don't know what's coming around. No, you never know.
Speaker 3 (44:40):
But it's like why not take the opportunities, like why
not jump into these you know, sometimes off the wall
wacky ideas like you know, try it. You know who
said I can't.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
I could do anything I want and you could also
hold your own in that room.
Speaker 3 (44:54):
You know, you better believe it, you know what I mean.
So I'm like, hey, look, this is a new opportunity,
a new place for me, a new time in life.
I feel like I'm on like a third act or
ten or ten exactly. But I'm very excited. I mean,
(45:14):
I don't know that I can explain anymore that It's like,
I am so excited about this time in life. You know.
Speaker 2 (45:20):
I think you take it that way.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
I think this is sort of, as you said, like
new chapter in the book. And I feel like I
don't know. I mean, I think you come up in
corporate there's an identity with that. It was at this
you know, really major dinner over the summer with a
ton of badass leaders and CEOs and a very dear
friend of mine. For a really long time, she's built
countless companies and now she just kind of starts them
(45:45):
and like, you know, and she moves on and then
she goes, you know, for the first time, I don't
have a CEO title in front of my name.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
And I literally but it was it was by choice.
But I said, and how is that?
Speaker 1 (46:00):
She's like, yeah, some days it's creepy and awful and
I don't know who I am. And some days there
is a relief and an excitement because I've never been
free from it, you know, And so I I and
she's so successful, I mean, I mean in every way
and happy. So I'm like, I think you need to
(46:21):
get there, you know, to the I'm happy like this
and you're not a title. And I think that's probably
what you were experiencing. And I think as women, those
titles can mean way more than they should, because over time,
we were never you know, years ago, we weren't given
(46:42):
those titles ever hardly ever.
Speaker 2 (46:46):
And now men want.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
To give us those titles so that they can like
check boxes sometimes. Right, So so I think, sorry, and
I really like men. I don't mean to bash men,
but but it's fact. And I think, and I think
for you, you've had your titles, you've done it, you've
taken the buttered roll, you've you've done all the things,
(47:07):
and I think, like this next chapter is very exciting.
So I'm I'm excited to see where it takes you.
I don't worry about you for one second ever. Well,
I'm so happy for you. I'm really excited about all
you're doing. And I can't wait to watch you keep
going out. And I'm going to start living a more
(47:28):
urgent life, effective, immediately.
Speaker 3 (47:31):
Effective, immediately. Today's the day.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
Today.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
Today is the day, babe, day, that's the name of
your next something. Today is the day. I'm here, I'm
calling it, I'm writing it, and today is the day
because people need to repurpose that.
Speaker 3 (47:48):
Amen. I am okay, okay.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
Thank you so much to Boz for coming on the
podcast today. She is so beyond I literally could have
talked to her or for hours. I cannot believe the
life she's lived. I cannot believe the grief she's lived
through and smiling bigger than I've probably seen anyone on
my pod.
Speaker 2 (48:10):
I am taking from that.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
I am definitely taking from that, and I think to
write a book called the Urgent Life and How to
Live It, I think is something that we should all
take along with her journey of you know, going from
literally being hungry to taking a buttered roll from a nice,
kind neighbor to getting the dream job from Spike Lee
because she had the courage to actually, you know, ask
(48:34):
to read a script. I mean, it's really an unbelievable story.
I want to thank you so much for listening to
Climbing and Heels. If you haven't already, please subscribe to
the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, the iHeart app, or
wherever you get your podcasts. You don't miss a single
episode fifth season, and be sure to follow me on
Instagram at at rachel Zo and the show on at
(48:56):
Climbing in Heels pod for the latest episodes and updates.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
I sing too, Mu
Hi everyone, I'm Rachel Zoe and you're listening to Climbing
in Heels for your weekly dose of glamour, inspiration and fun.
If I were to do an intro that I included
all of the executive roles that this woman has held
and the amazing recognition that she's gotten throughout her career,
I would literally be here for days, Bosima or both.
(00:28):
Saint John has been a major for US in marketing
for some of the biggest, most successful companies around, corporations
like Pepsi, Apple Music, and.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Netflix, just to name a few.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
She's not only used her experience in marketing to educate others,
but she also has shared her own personal brief story
to empower others to live an urgent and present life.
She also happens to be unbelievably fabulous and glamorous and
unapologetically herself. I am so thrilled she's on the pod today,
So every one, meet Boss Saint John.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
I am so excited. So let's jump right into it.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
You're like Gorge and you're doing it, so here we go.
I want to talk to you about so many things,
but I think I first want to talk about sort
of like highlights of childhood like an amazing kid? Were
you dynamic? Were you like I got to get out
of here? Where were you born?
Speaker 2 (01:21):
I mean? And I know, but I want you to share?
Speaker 3 (01:23):
So yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, Well even before I get
to that, can I just tell you that I'm so
obsessed with the name of this podcast, Like I am,
I'm a real like marketing nerd. Yeah, you know, like me.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Too, I'm a closet marketing nerd.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
I'm like I could, I will really like, don't take
me to a cocktail party and then like I get
stuck in the corner with somebody who likes a little
bit about marketing, I will goo. And so I saw
theme of this podcast and I was just like, this
is so damn brilliant.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Yes, well, because you know what that means.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
You know exactly what that means. You know how hard
that is. You know exactly the type of person we're
talking about. You know, we know the ambition that it's
going to require. Like, girl, if you slip a little
bit with that leg stiletto, grab mom with the other arms,
you know.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
What I mean?
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Correct, It's exact. And I always tell people it's like,
you know, some of the amazing women I've had in here,
They're like, you know, I don't wear heels.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
I'm like, you know what this means? Like, you know
what this means.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
You know what this means.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
It's about embracing the powers of femininity and whatever that
means to you while you're crushing great.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
This that's that's the whole thing. So that's what I
first one to say.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
I love that. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
It means a lot to me because naming things is everything.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Yes, the name, fabulous name. So how did I get here? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (02:44):
I mean listen, share as much or as little you
can give me the flash to like, really the meat
if you want, whatever, whatever works for you.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
I just like to know why you're you.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Yeah, I do feel like my child. I mean, I
think everybody's childhood really does frame who they are. But
I think there's some people who really come into themselves,
like in their twenties or in their thirties or maybe
even your forties. But I came to myself at twelve,
it really did, you know. It's like, So I was
born in the US in Middletown, Connecticut. My dad was
(03:14):
getting two PhDs at Wesley University. He's an immigrant United States. Yeah,
He was an immigrant from Ghana. My mom joined him
here and they were like the classic immigrant story, you know,
my dad came to get a better education, better way
of life. But he's truly a Pan Africanist, you know,
like one of those like sixties type guys who was like, yeah,
(03:36):
power to the people, you know, were Africa. Yeah. And
so what was happening at the time is that there
was this you know movement it was WB Duvoyce called
the Town to tenth, you know, where it's like scooped
up the top ten percent of brain power and put
them in the US and the UK and you know
other places. My dad was one of those people. But
(03:58):
he decided that he didn't want to stay in the US.
He went back to Donna, you know, and after teaching university,
he joined politics and was in a government that was
sadly overthrown about you know, three years into the administration,
and that's what eventually drove us back, you know, to
the US. But you know, we were in Kenya, and
(04:18):
we were in California and DC and like all these places.
So my childhood was very chaotic. You know, I moved
around a lot, and for me, I think part of
the reason why I say I came to myself at
twelve is that we finally settled in Colorado Springs, Colorado.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
I was twelve, random, seventh girl. Okay, seven, great.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Right when you're like boom teenager, cool girl.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
And I'm also super tall. I've been like literally six
feet tall since I was like thirteen.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
I just want you to know to me, that's like
showing off. I just want you to I just like
crushed my soul. I do know that I have zero
sympathy for my friends that are like I was so awkward,
and when I was in school, I'm like.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Okay, but at twelve, you don't want to be six
weeks old. I'm telling you, okay. And then plus I
was like okay, maybe okay, you're you're the one I
did not. I would have happily traded places with everybody else,
you know what I mean. And I'm serious, I would traded.
I would have I would rather have been blonde, I
would rather have blue eyes. I wanted to have white skin.
(05:27):
I wanted to be shorter, I wanted not to top
of an accent. I didn't want the food I ate
at home, like all of the things. I was like
I didn't want to be different from anybody else in
Cardas Breaks. But God bless my mother. God blessed my mother,
who in our household. She's a stay at home mom.
She was adamant about her pride for not just being black,
(05:52):
but being after, you know, and it forced me into
my own I won't even say acceptance with celebration. You know,
it's super hard. It's pretty enough. Like imagine when the
teacher is like calling out the names and I'm just like,
oh my gosh, she's gonna mess up in it. Yeah,
(06:14):
the dread of it, you know what I mean. I
was just like, call me some nicknames. I don't know,
you know. But my mother was like, hey, look, when
your little girlfriends come over here, you know, to come
hang out at the house or sleep over whatever. Finally,
when I've been accepted into the cool girls club, you know,
and they were coming over and I was like, please,
can we have some pizza or like, can you get
(06:36):
McDonald's or like something that they would like, and she.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Was make my friends, make my friends happy.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
Look yes, and she was like, no, we're not going
to do that. We're I'm gonna make them some Ghanian
food and we're gonna eat that. And I was like, please,
I beg you like anything but that girl, let me
tell you how. My best friend, Summer okay, who was
the epitome of like the call Springs girl right, her
(07:03):
name is Summer. I mean, come on, give me a break.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Like it's like she's just oh, I have the visual.
I have the visual.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
You already have the blondest hair, the bluest eyes, the
fairest skin.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Beautiful English. I got captain the cheerleading squad. That girl, Okay,
someone's my best friend. And Summer came to visit me
like two weeks ago, and my mom lives very close
by to me, and she was like, can I know
your mom's finished stew And I'm like, oh my god, her,
you said, thirty years later, you're still asking for my
(07:33):
mom's Ghanian food, you know what I mean. And so
it's that kind of you know, real middle you know,
which would not allow for me to be ashamed of
my name, wouldn't allow me to be ashamed of my heritage,
wouldn't allow me to be ashamed of my food. So, girl,
when I tell you that, when I walk into rooms
and people are like, oh, how are you so confident.
(07:55):
This room is a little bit but I'm just like,
are you like you didn't grow up with my mom.
But my mom was like, girl, they are going to
bend to you. You are not going to bend to them.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
You are not assessed with her. I'm obsessed with her.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
She's also completely bald and fierce.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
She's probably like stunning with not like a rink.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
Face exactly serves face for days, for days, but yeah,
I mean she so for me, it's like, you know,
my childhood was that, but it was also me being
obsessed with pop culture because at the time, you know,
it's like I just wanted to fit in. So I
wanted to figure out, okay, like what what does everybody
like to do? What do they like to talk about?
You know, what is cool to them? And I found that,
(08:39):
like this very studied approach of like understanding pop culture
just like normal conversation, was also a natural curiosity which
I've never lost. So it's like, as a marketer, it
serves me so beautifully because I want to know everything.
I want everything about fashion, I want on everything about sports,
I want to know about film, I want to know
about politics, I want to know out give me any topic, girl,
(09:02):
I promise you I know something about it.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
I'm I'm obsessed.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
So okay, no, because you know, I so believe in
And that's why I always like to touch on childhood because
I do think especially my kids now are ten and thirteen,
and I'm watching them form into these people, and I'm like,
I don't think anyone tells parents when they have their
kids how important that like zero to fourteen is right,
(09:28):
Like it's all important, right until they leave you, it's
all important and even after that.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
But yeah, but that is the like give.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Them the confidence, get like, let them be them, try
and teach them. It's okay to beat them. So what
your mom did especially then, right because this is not
a year ago, you know, I think easier now probably
like good for her.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
And also in the middle of Colorado Springs, so.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
Okay, in the middle of Coado Springs to be like, girl,
we're not going to have pizza hut, you know what
I mean. She's like, no, we're not having pizza hut.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Having spinach still deal with that.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
That's right exactly, And it's gonna be hot with Pepper
and your little white friends are gonna have their rosy
cheeks and you know what I mean, they're just gonna cry.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
I love this.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Okay, So how long did you stay there? Like at
what point did you peace out from there?
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Where you were like I know?
Speaker 3 (10:20):
Right? Well, you know, Here's what's so funny is that
people ask me where I'm from or like where's home?
I would say, you do, I'd say College Springs because
it feels like that those were the like formative.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Years, like where you became.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
Yes, but it was only like five years of my life,
and so now I think about it, I'm just like, God,
what a small amount of time. But it was so
impactful to me as who I am that it's where
I say I'm from. Although I grew up in so
many places, and when I was eighteen and ready to
go to college, girl, I was out of there. Yeah,
I was like, first, give me to the East Coast,
let me go.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
But I would I would argue to say twelve to seventeen.
I mean that those are the years where, like right,
you make or break as it either fall off or
you keep going.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
Exactly like those formed of years solidified. I think my personality,
you know, the curiosity they have about people, you know,
my empathy for people, and for you know, everyone who
has ever othered you know, it's like all of that
stuff was born there.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
You had a fearless mom too, which I would venture
to say that like some of the most successful women
I know, in fact likely all come from fearless moms,
strong moms, and also like very often single moms. So
why marketing and where do you go to school? Because
marketing is something that I always talk about because if
(11:45):
I had a penny for every girl, right like as
a senior in college, they're like, I think I just
want to be in marketing, And I'm like, okay, I
need you to understand the importance of marketing.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Yes, and like, yes, what of means?
Speaker 2 (11:59):
It doesn't all?
Speaker 1 (12:00):
So like marketing makes or breaks not just a brand,
but a person. And you could take the least talented
singer and they go to number one because the marketing.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
They may not stay there.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
But they may not stay there, I mean there are
some tricks to help them, say for at least a
little bit, you know what I.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Mean, talent.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
But you're right, You're right. I had the opposite, like
sort of upbringing where I didn't know marketing was actually
a career for an opportunity. Like I said, my parents
are immigrants. They were very clear that there were only
three professions maybe four, that I could do. I could
be a doctor, a lawyer, an engineer, perhaps an accountant,
(12:42):
but that was only like the very like if you
really couldn't do anything else, you know, sure, no kill me.
I was actually pre med in college Sewer. You know,
I did all of the things, you know, but when
I graduated, I definitely didn't want to go to med school.
But I didn't know what I wanted to do. And
(13:03):
I you know, I took the m cat like I
did all the things, and then I said, okay, well no,
I'm going to go to New York for a year.
And my parents were very against the idea. They refused
to you know, they would not support me in it
at all. Like they were like, okay, you go, you
manage it yourself, like whatever you pay for your own way,
do whatever you're going to do. We'll be over here
(13:24):
waiting for you when you're read for med school.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Okay, okay, I've heard this before. I mean, this is
this is not uncommon.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
Yes, but and the thing is that you know, it's like, look,
I have a daughter, she's fifteen. I can't imagine how
terrified I would be, you know, even at twenty one
if she were like in some big city by herself,
doesn't know a soul, you know, all that stuffe And so, like,
I think back to what I'm just like, either they
(13:52):
were like very confident in my survival skills.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
What didn't give a.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
Shit about me?
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Like I'm like, which one is?
Speaker 3 (14:00):
Look, I don't know where, you know, but you know,
God blessed, Like it really worked out because I knew
one person, actually one person that I had gone to
college with. She graduated a year before me, and she
was at Columbia Film School. She was getting her master's
and so I negotiated with her even then I had
the talent and negotiation of course, to be able to
(14:20):
stay on her couch. She had a roommate, her and
her roommate's couch, and I would cook, you know, that
was basically like my my contribution, and so I, you know,
would get up every day. And again, you know, we're
talking about twenty five years ago, so you know, there
was there weren't cell phones, so there was the corner
(14:40):
like the payphone.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Yeah, I was living there at the same time as it.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
Set and Broadway under the train, the one in the
nine across it, like on the corner of Floridita Human
Restaurant right there. And what I would do is I
would get up in the morning. I signed up for
like a temp agency, and I'd get up in the morning.
The first call was at seven thirty, and then you
call every fifteen minutes until you got play someplace, you know.
(15:07):
And I would go inside of Floridita in between the
times when I'd go to the pay phone to call,
and girl, I mean it was like that was like
just hard, hard hard knuckles, like just I didn't have
enough money for food. So the very kind lady who
I wish Rachel, I wish I could find this woman
(15:27):
who didn't speak English, only spoke Spanish. But somehow we're
able to communicate, you know. And every day she's like
I was too proud to also ask, you know what,
I mean, to slide me like a buttered roll, you know.
I And the first few times I was like, no, no, no,
I'm fine, it's okay, it's okay. I just you know,
I just want to sit down, it's okay, you know,
But girl, I was my mouth was watering, and I
(15:50):
was like, you know, so eventually one day I just
I took the damn buttered roll and she was so
happy and every day like I, you know, sometimes I
would and get a job. I want to get placed,
and so then i'm you know, come in and just
say bye for the day. She only knew a couple
of words in English, but she would say like she would,
she'd be like, you know, today's.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
The day, right today, this is your day, right right
right right, I feel and.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
I will never forget it. Like even now, you know,
in tough situations or like you know, when you get
antsy about a big decision or a deal you've got
to strike or whatever, I'm always like, today's day, Today's day.
It's going to happen today, you know. And it really
kept me going. And the thing is that, like, look,
Destiny came to meet me on that corner of one
(16:37):
hundred and Twain Fiftreet and Broadway. I gotta I called
in and Spike Lee have such This is like I
tell you, Destiny literally came and met me at that corner,
and I got a placement with Spike Lee because he
had assistant. You're okay, but but here's the thing.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
I mean, by the way, today was the day. Today
was today.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
It was today, that was the day. That was the day. Okay.
And I walked into that office thinking, okay, well I'm
here for like two or three days, right while he
finds the replacement. So let me make the best of it,
you know, like, let me not get in the way.
But you know, blah blah blah. And again, like I
swear to you, Destiny keeps meeting me in places. Because
(17:24):
that man walked into the office that day and as
he's passing by, I'm literally like, oh, you know, there's
Spike Lee. And he looks at me. I have like
my hair pulled back in a tight, you know, bun
in the back. I'm wearing like the only gray polyester
suit I have. I swear you was polsyll Of.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Course it was you cud, you couldn't eat? What were
you buy clothes?
Speaker 3 (17:45):
Was gonna be exactly no. And he says, and he
we're still friends now, and he remembers that his first
thought and words to me were, oh God, damn it,
they sent me miss America. And I was like, this
is America. And I had my retort. I was like
excuse me. I'm a pre med major from Wesleyan University
(18:07):
and I'm here to answer your phone.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
He was like, what the hell. But here's the thing, Rachel.
He had a manuscript under his arm. And because in
college I also studied African American authors and I took
a minor in African American English, and I was like, oh,
what do you have? And it was his script for Bamboozled,
(18:33):
a film that he was making it. And I asked
him if I could read it, and like, because I
was naive and stupid, I didn't know any better. And
so he hands me the manuscript like sure, here, here
you go. My first day, Rachel, first day, the first
time have met this man. And so he's like me,
go ahead and read it and give me your thoughts.
(18:55):
So I take a red pen two this manuscript. Girl.
He literally, if you ask him the story, he'll tell you.
I took a red pen to it. I made some corrections,
I made some suggestions to character development. Grammar was all
kind of off. I was like, why would people speak
(19:17):
this way? No, that's not the correcting. And that that
was really the start of everything, because he had started
an ad agency in partnership with D d B, which
is a storied you know, ad agency, I know, yeah,
four thirty seven Madison Avenue, you know. And it was
(19:40):
like anxiety KKR.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
There was like medium ye yes, yes, yes, there was like.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
You yes, there's like a story, big ones. Then he said,
you know you should stick around and I was like,
I have a job. I have a job, have a job.
So that was four years of working underneath Spike, like,
you know, learning his ways of managing, of being unapologetic
(20:09):
of his creativity and his discipline to it, and just
I mean, how much better do you get that, you know,
being an understudy to somebody of that caliber. But it
really sparked for me the idea that there was a
world of advertising and marketing that could be infused with
pop culture where my opinion could be important. You know,
(20:30):
it's like all of these things. And that's that's what
started it.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
That is such a sick story.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
First of all, I think your next book should be
called Today's the Day, Today's the Day, because I'm going
to take that with me if you don't mind if.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
I repress that.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
I think in living, whether you're in corporate or whether
you're an entrepreneur, whether you're trying to act or whatever,
saying whatever it is. I think you always have that
feeling of the you know, I talk with pretty much
anyone on the pod that it's this, it's this this, Yes, it's.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Not bally like this.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
Right, I've never like that.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
No, right, no, And so I think with that it's
nice to have those moments in your personal and professional
life where you wake up and go, today's the day.
And I myself, I would say I'm guilty of really
never doing that. I actually like go the other way,
which is like, oh, it's never happening, right. So that
was like, I really, I'm soaking that one up.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
If that's okay?
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Yes, yes, the day, the day, so.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
So okay, So this is so right? So then how
do you go from this? From this?
Speaker 3 (21:45):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Why why would one leave? And where do you go
after that? Because you're young at this point, right, you're
probably not even thirty, right, in your mid twenties.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
No, no, no, By the time I left Spikes twenty right, Yeah,
you know, so I'd worked for him, But the thing
is that he had given me such a gift, you know,
of appreciating my opinion, you know, not letting me feel
like I was too young to have a good idea.
In fact, it was my idea that led him to
(22:16):
It was just again a confluence of moments. You know.
It's like he was pitching PepsiCo for their business, for
their marketing business, or a slice of it anyway, and
they were looking for, you know, the next new like,
you know, spokesperson, but can he wanted it to be
(22:36):
a black performer. And at the time, I was out
in the streets in New York City and Beyonce had
just left Destiny's Child Casual and people were hating on her.
You know, at the time, I think people don't remember that.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
They were not happy.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
They were not Like when John Lennon left the Beatles,
it was like a huge issue.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
I mean they were literally, well, you're not going to succeed,
you know. Yeah, they were literally like, oh, you know, now,
you know, no solo artists has ever succeeded from a
girl group except for Diana Ross, and you're not gonna
be her, you know. And then she was also like
trying to act, and she was trying to do all
these things, and she was in a TV movie on
(23:19):
MTV called Carmen The hip hopera Okay, destroyed by critics.
I loved it. I thought it was brilliant, you know.
Speaker 4 (23:29):
What I mean.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
Like I was like, are you kidding me? Like we've
got opera, and we've got like like classic opera, and
you got Beyonce singing it. Oh, and they're people rapping
as well, like this this is incredible, you know. And
Spike was asking people around the office, you know, like
who they thought would be great as the spokes for
us and this and that and folks you know, were
(23:49):
on the billboard charts. They were, you know, calling out
names all these big artists. And I was like, I
think Beyonce is it. And everybody was like I don't
think you know, she's not gonna blah blah blah blah.
But Spike listened to me. Spike, he knows, and he
was like, Okay, we'll take a meeting with her. She
came in. I was always here, like, girl, you go
(24:11):
get them. You just you the baddest, you know, you know,
by the way, still friends with them, Still friends with
Miss Tina, and Miss Tina remembers that I was like, hmm, yep,
she's the one.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Beyonce, the fucking queen and anyone who says otherwise, I
will fight too.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
There were plenty of people who says she wasn't, but
Spike believed. And so by the time I was ready
to leave his agency, he had given me the confidence
that like, look, you're never too young to have the
best idea in the room, you know, like, you know,
(24:49):
because everybody else might have the criteria, might have the education,
might have the credentials, but if you have a great idea,
you're gonna win. Yeah, this is right. So when I
was ready to leave, at the same time, PepsiCo was looking,
you know, to hire some more people, and they were
going to do it in an untraditional way because usually
(25:11):
the marketers come from you know, the big you know,
like MBAs. And I was still over here with my
mcat that was about to expire, you know what I mean,
and like, oh, yeah, I'm not gonna go med school
and I'm definitely not getting an NBA. You can forget that.
So they offered me a job, which again it's like
(25:33):
Destiny came in to meet me again, and I was like,
oh my god, I think I have to take this opportunity.
Even though there's nobody else liked me because everybody else
came together in a class with their other NBA students
were interns, and then they got offers to be you know,
assistant brand managers.
Speaker 4 (25:48):
Like there was a through the correct and here I
was climbing through the window talking about I'm a huge
believer of climbing through the window.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
In fact, everything I've done in my life is probably
climbing through the window. I've never I don't have the
patience for this, you know, I don't.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
I don't have it, Rachel, I don't. So now it's
like we're not just climbing in heels. We're climbing in
heels through the window, you know what I mean? Like
that we through the window.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
That's how we came in a hundred and then but
then you like went on to like Uber Endeavor Apple
like nets, right, so you have like so is it
like you kind of go somewhere and you're like, Okay,
I'm here for a reason and a purpose.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
I'm gonna do my thing.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
And then when I'm like okay, we're good here, then
it's like we move on, yes right, yes.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
Yes, yes, And I'm so glad for the experience because
the thing is that look looking back at my career.
People will be like, oh, this is great strategy, a
great plan, blah blah blah. You named all the companies,
c suite. I'm in the Hall of fame. I'm at
the Hall of achievement. I'm a bill board, like I've
got all the credentials. So, like, you know, for me,
(27:06):
it's like I have had a career which has just
been boom boom boom boom, boom, boom boom, right, but
people will look at it and be like, oh my god,
this is a brilliant strategy. I can't believe she moved here.
She moved here, she moved here. But Rachel, I promise you,
I promise you. It has been at my own pace
against a lot of advice everyone who has been like,
oh no, don't do that, don't go there. That company
(27:29):
is shit, that manager's terrible, that CEO is crazy, like
all of the things along my entire career even now. Okay,
so I'm like, thank God that the experiences I've had
have made me have to listen to myself and only myself,
(27:50):
Like I keep my own counsel. I don't ask anybody
for their advice on what career move. I should mean
thank God, because imagine if I listen to somebody else,
I'd be still sitting back overin middle management. Yeah, trying
to figure out who that I should wear today? False?
Is it a being here with you and my friend
in sequence and my hearings.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
I want to talk to if I can love you
so much. I want to talk to you just quickly
about social media because it's something I get asked a lot,
sort of the impact on the fashion industry and everything
else marketing at this point, you know, as someone who
has sort of like you know, I've had those are report.
(28:31):
I've done all social media as I've done television, have
done all the things I wouldn't at this point. You know,
social media for me started as ten percent of my life.
Now it is I can't even say what percentage it
is because it's.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
It's such a big part.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Of everything I do in terms of amplification. So being
that you are the queen, how like, what are your
thoughts on that? Because when you started it wasn't about that, right,
and so do you feel that it's only good? Do
you feel that it's like, I just want to understand
your thoughts on that, because I have I have love
(29:13):
hates with it for sure, you know.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
But yeah, and fair, fair, But here's the thing I
think for me, social media is just another platform, yeah,
to tell us story, you know. So for me, it's
like I don't look at social media and think like,
oh my god, it's like you know, the next worst thing,
or it's like the greatest thing ever. It's just another platform.
So it's like the point is that mastery of the narrative,
(29:37):
mastery of your story, mastery of the message, and then
figuring out what platform is going to work best on,
because let's not forget it that, like, you know, platforms
from like the Roman Empire are still available today.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
You know.
Speaker 3 (29:49):
It's like when they went in like tagged, you know,
like a sign in the town square. They're called billboards
and it's in Times Square right now. Okay, so I'm like,
look those things still exist.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
Which I still by the way, very much same same. Yeah,
a bus, a bus side, a bus.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
Side, Okay, some like graffiti, I believe, with all of
the stuff. So it's like social media is like the
challenge that we have right for creators like you, like me,
like whomever. It doesn't matter if you have seven million
followers or three hundred. It's that what story are you
telling and make sure it's appropriate for the platform that
(30:27):
you're telling it in. Because there's something that's going to
be really great for the Billboarding Times Square that's not
going to work on Twitter, or there's something that's going
to be really great on TikTok that is not going
to work on TV, you know. So it's like that
is actually where the mastery of marketing then plays, because
it's like, Okay, let me figure out what part of
the story works on what platform and then hit them
(30:48):
all at the same time like lasers, you know. And
that's how you get a complete and total picture where
you can shift the brand narrative where you can make
somebody go to them one on Billboard charts when they
have no talent. Sure, I'm not speaking about.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Anybody, listen, Listen. I was in New York City working
in the pop world when you were there. So I'm
just gonna say marketing plays a big, big role, big,
big big. I want to talk to you about The
Urgent Life. I want to talk to you about the
Urgent Life because I want to you know, I know
a little bit about why you wrote this book, but
(31:25):
I want I want to hear it from you because
I think it's important to share with our listeners, because
I really love the title. Like I said, I'm a
title nerd, but I want you to speak to it
a little bit because I think it's super important.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
Thank you, Thank you well. I've been asked to write
a book for some time because I think after like
I got my third C suite job, people were like, wait,
hold on, does she have like that? Can't just be
lust but have something so, you know, I was pitched
all of the books like I should write the you know,
the Corner Suite for Dummies, you know, girl boss in
(31:58):
the C suite, like, you know, all these time to
think that. I was like, you know what I could
do that maybe one day I will write the book.
But it felt like, look, you don't become fierce or
badass or like have the kind of grit that it
requires to get to these offices without having gone through
some shit.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
Yeah, you know, without taking the buttered roll.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
Oh, without taking the buttered roll, you know. And I
felt like a lot of times, leaders, especially in the
corporate world, hide their personal stories behind these walls because
they have to appear perfect. You know, you have to
appear like, oh, nothing is ever wrong. I never in doubt.
(32:39):
There's never a moment where I cry or forget what
I'm gonna say or have a bad day. Like I'm
always the perfect leader. My teams are going to follow
me to the end, you know. And I'm just like,
but that actually is not how human beings behave. And oh,
by the way, everybody's lying. Sure. So I thought better
to write my memoir because I was like, you want
to get to the corner office. Well, first of all,
(33:03):
you have to face the demons that are in your life.
You also have to think about the ways in which
you are actually not the same person that you were,
and utilize all of those things to be a more
empathetic leader, a leader that people trust, you know, one
that people are like, Oh, she's been through something and
I'm going through something. I will follow her. I will
listen to her. She understands, you know. And so my
(33:25):
book The Urgent Life was really based on my traumas,
you know, the loss in my life, the ways in
which sometimes life has just shit on me. Ye, you know,
my need to live a really big life because my
husband passed away from cancer ten years ago, almost eleven.
(33:47):
Now just at the height of like, you know, I
was really starting to break through the ceiling, you know, crash.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
And you had a young daughter at the time.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
Yeah, my daughter was four, and it was just like
one of those things where you're just like, oh my God,
like how okay? You know, I had put Beyonce on
the Super Bowl halftime stage that year, and my career
was just Pa Pa pal sing it, you know. And
it's like, my daughter's four and we're you know, living
in Manhattan.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
We're living our life. How does this happen?
Speaker 3 (34:20):
You've got we got decades to go. And then he's
diagnosed with Burkett's lymphoma in May of twenty thirteen, which
is a blood cancer, and six months later he was dead.
And I it was just I don't even know how
to describe like it was just it was earth shattering.
(34:42):
It was devastating. It was all of the things, like
all the fear and hurt, and like I was mad
at God. My call was kissed, you know, and like,
what did you do this? Anyway?
Speaker 1 (34:55):
He just fell into a crack in the earth. Yeah,
Like actually, you know, like actually I always say like
when those things happen, it's like if you had a
visual it's like you're standing there and you're happy, and
then all of a sudden, the entire earth cracks beneath
you and you fall and you're like, write it.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
That's it, that's it.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
And it's like this black hole and you're like, how
the how do I get out of here? You know?
And it's why I do live an urgent life now,
because I'm like, it's not really about like speed and time.
I'm not trying to like raise the clock. That's really
not what I want to do is live like the
fullest life that I can. And that's what the urgency
(35:37):
is about, because like, you don't know when we're going
to go, And I don't think that that's ay or
a sad thing to say. I just think because it's
very inspirational because I'm like, Earl, look, when it's my
time to go, you will know that I've been here.
You will know, you will feel it, and you'll be like, damn,
that's a good one lost, you know what I mean?
Because I'm living I'm living the biggest life that I
(35:59):
can and I refuse for anyone to tell me, oh,
you know what do it on the next one? Oh,
wait and do it later. Oh no, I don't think
that's right for you. Who are you talking to woo me? No,
you can't be talking to me like this is my life. Yeah,
this is my life. And so that's why it's like
when people try to deny me.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Anything, You're like, I'm sorry, no.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
No, okay, I'm living my own urgent life. You should
live yours, and you're probably happier if you do that.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Yeah, And I love it because the urgent life, like
it is such a profound statement, and it is something
that I don't think. I know, I don't live like
that enough. I know it here that we need to
do it. And I would say my parents are eighty
three and eighty seven. They live every day like it is,
(36:50):
and they have always. They have always They're like, we
could get hit by a bus tomorrow. We need to
do this. And I'm like, hey, you're gonna spend every
dollar you have, Like, oh my god. It's like there's
some gray area here, right, there's some middle ground here.
But I love it, and I think and I think
you're coming from this place of actual experience and why,
(37:13):
And I think it's a really good thing for us
to learn because you've been through it. You have been
through it, and I think we've all been through it
in different ways. But I think showing vulnerability as a
major player in any field, as a known boss badass,
there is this expectation that I'm not sure people put
(37:34):
on us, that we put on ourselves. Is I'm good,
We're good, I'm good, I'm fine, We're good. What do
you mean I'm not I'm I'm good.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Of course I'm.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
Good, And you're basically like, it's cool to not be good,
and it's cool to like, you know, yes, yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
Yes, it's actually better.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Yeah, because human The thing is.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
That I am a better leader because I'm a widow.
I'm a better leader because I'm a single mom. I'm
a better leader because I have experienced, you know, someone
really close to me who died by suicide. I'm a
better leader because I have lost a child. Like I'm
a better leader because of so many things in my
(38:16):
life that have rocked me. And I've been able to
figure out, Okay, like, what's the ways in which I
come back to life? You know, so many times, time
after time after time, And so I have empathy for
the world, and I have empathy for people and I
will meet somebody and say, oh my god, like you know,
whatever you're going through, like okay, you take your time,
(38:39):
you do what you need to do, or maybe I
can help in some way, or the fact that, yes,
I have been the other in a room, I have
been the child of the immigrant where people are not
giving them the credit they deserve. You know. It's like,
I've been all of those things, and so I think
I'm just a better human for having gone through all
of these things.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
And that's what you take from it, because you have
to write. It's really hard to find that silver lining
sometimes because you're like, fuck off, why did this hop been?
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Like what?
Speaker 3 (39:10):
Yes? Yes? And sometimes there are those days too, yeah,
of course you know what.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
I'm just like, no, literally every better and you're just
like why today?
Speaker 2 (39:18):
You know?
Speaker 3 (39:19):
But I do think that if we were all more
honesty about the depths of our pain, the fear in
our transitions, you know, joy and the triumph once you
finally get to the thing, without you know, being like,
oh you have to somehow fake humble, like what girl,
(39:39):
when I reached the mountaintop, I'll be the first one
who's up there, like.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
I'm right.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
Because I'm get in the valley. Are you kidding me?
You know how hard it was to get up there?
You know how climbing in heels? You know how hard
it was?
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Wait to your six feet barefoot? Right? You're six feet
for right? And do you still wear heels?
Speaker 3 (40:03):
I still wear four?
Speaker 2 (40:04):
That is so mean.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
See my real friends that are doll like you, they
were maybe a kid meal around me just to be nice,
and they duck, and they duck for me, they squat.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
I will there's not one way on God's green earth
if you will catch me in a kid meal, okay,
in the weight.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
So when I get to meet you, would hug you
in person. You're not gonna like, just do this a little.
Speaker 3 (40:29):
Bit, just to no grandma. I'm gonna hug you to
my navel.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
Okay right here, a fine fine, By the way, don't
kid yourself. I'm gonna text you pictures of me and
some of the models that I've worked with my career
where I literally come up to their hip. Their leg
is like to my actually like their their leg actually
ends at my head.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
Yeah, true story, true story.
Speaker 3 (40:51):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
And so you are so next level and I don't
even know I know that you're probably gonna say you
have so much you want to do, so much left
to do, but I do. I am curious about what
is like now and what is like the next thing,
if there is a next thing, because I know you're
not taking a beat. I know there's no way you're
taking a beat, not in this urgent life.
Speaker 3 (41:13):
Hell no, no, not in this urgent life.
Speaker 4 (41:16):
No.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
But that's the thing is that I've been so I
am really excited about every evolution that I have. You know,
I'm always so like I anticipated with a lot of joy.
And when I left Netflix, I was a global CMO.
To write my book, I thought I was going to
like take a little sabbatical, you know, I publish my
(41:39):
book and then go back. And it was really scary
to be like, oh shit, like I don't think I'm like,
I don't think I want to go back, you know,
And my ego was playing tricks on me, you know,
the like, oh, well but now I don't have this
big company behind me. Who the hell am I? You know,
like I walk into you and people like, oh that's
you know, that's the CMO of I don't have that.
(42:01):
So I was fighting that the identity shift.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Do I need that title. Do I need that title
to exist?
Speaker 3 (42:09):
Yes, in order to validate who I am. And I
know that. You know, maybe a lot of people would say,
but oh my god, but you're so unapologetic, you're so fearless,
and I'm like, yeah, but I still got an ego. Yeah,
I still I still feel the pain of like identity
shift when something in your life goes away and therefore
you're no longer this person that you told the whole
world you were. I mean, yeah, there were days when
(42:32):
I literally sat in my bed and I was like,
I don't want to go outside. I don't want to
go to the party because people a going to ask
me what are you doing now? And I'm like, oh
my god, are you kidding me?
Speaker 2 (42:39):
You know the worst question, by the way.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
I hate that question.
Speaker 2 (42:43):
I literally see.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
It At every event I go to, there's someone asking someone, so,
what are you working on?
Speaker 2 (42:50):
What are you doing now?
Speaker 1 (42:51):
And it's that and behind it is that worry you good?
Speaker 2 (42:55):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (42:56):
Yeah, exactly like that.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
I'm good.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
I've been working for thirty fucking years, exactly exactly.
Speaker 3 (43:01):
Look, I'm fine, you know. I started to answer like
all the you know, crazy things like I would say
stuff like oh, I'm working on a on a space
flight to March. And people would be like you are,
and I'm like, yes, bitch, I am.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
And that sound yeah, They're gonna go really.
Speaker 3 (43:16):
Like, yeah, oh, I have an idea for you. No,
you don't sit down after taking the time from my book,
I you know, just sat back and really for the
I think, for the first time in my life, for
the first time in my career anyway, I was like,
what do I actually want to do now, you know,
not not necessarily like the linear climbing the ladder, but like,
(43:37):
what do I actually want to do? And I had
so many thoughts and so many ideas, and then opportunities
popped up for me, you know, whether it was like
just you know, speaking engagements that I started doing and
being able to communicate to other people how I do
this and how I did it, and you know the
motivation of it all, of course, and then I decided that,
(43:59):
you know what, I think, I definitely want to work
for myself. You know, I want to create my own company.
I want to create my own business. Like I've put
in so many years working for other people and building
their companies. It's about time, you know that I did
something for myself, and so I started exploring that, and
then I got the uh to talk to the producers
(44:22):
of the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, and I was like, bitch,
what's out here? I come, you know, And it's it's
just it's such a fascinating life because.
Speaker 2 (44:36):
Like you don't know what's coming around. No, you never know.
Speaker 3 (44:40):
But it's like why not take the opportunities, like why
not jump into these you know, sometimes off the wall
wacky ideas like you know, try it. You know who
said I can't.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
I could do anything I want and you could also
hold your own in that room.
Speaker 3 (44:54):
You know, you better believe it, you know what I mean.
So I'm like, hey, look, this is a new opportunity,
a new place for me, a new time in life.
I feel like I'm on like a third act or
ten or ten exactly. But I'm very excited. I mean,
(45:14):
I don't know that I can explain anymore that It's like,
I am so excited about this time in life. You know.
Speaker 2 (45:20):
I think you take it that way.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
I think this is sort of, as you said, like
new chapter in the book. And I feel like I
don't know. I mean, I think you come up in
corporate there's an identity with that. It was at this
you know, really major dinner over the summer with a
ton of badass leaders and CEOs and a very dear
friend of mine. For a really long time, she's built
countless companies and now she just kind of starts them
(45:45):
and like, you know, and she moves on and then
she goes, you know, for the first time, I don't
have a CEO title in front of my name.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
And I literally but it was it was by choice.
But I said, and how is that?
Speaker 1 (46:00):
She's like, yeah, some days it's creepy and awful and
I don't know who I am. And some days there
is a relief and an excitement because I've never been
free from it, you know, And so I I and
she's so successful, I mean, I mean in every way
and happy. So I'm like, I think you need to
(46:21):
get there, you know, to the I'm happy like this
and you're not a title. And I think that's probably
what you were experiencing. And I think as women, those
titles can mean way more than they should, because over time,
we were never you know, years ago, we weren't given
(46:42):
those titles ever hardly ever.
Speaker 2 (46:46):
And now men want.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
To give us those titles so that they can like
check boxes sometimes. Right, So so I think, sorry, and
I really like men. I don't mean to bash men,
but but it's fact. And I think, and I think
for you, you've had your titles, you've done it, you've
taken the buttered roll, you've you've done all the things,
(47:07):
and I think, like this next chapter is very exciting.
So I'm I'm excited to see where it takes you.
I don't worry about you for one second ever. Well,
I'm so happy for you. I'm really excited about all
you're doing. And I can't wait to watch you keep
going out. And I'm going to start living a more
(47:28):
urgent life, effective, immediately.
Speaker 3 (47:31):
Effective, immediately. Today's the day.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
Today.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
Today is the day, babe, day, that's the name of
your next something. Today is the day. I'm here, I'm
calling it, I'm writing it, and today is the day
because people need to repurpose that.
Speaker 3 (47:48):
Amen. I am okay, okay.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
Thank you so much to Boz for coming on the
podcast today. She is so beyond I literally could have
talked to her or for hours. I cannot believe the
life she's lived. I cannot believe the grief she's lived
through and smiling bigger than I've probably seen anyone on
my pod.
Speaker 2 (48:10):
I am taking from that.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
I am definitely taking from that, and I think to
write a book called the Urgent Life and How to
Live It, I think is something that we should all
take along with her journey of you know, going from
literally being hungry to taking a buttered roll from a nice,
kind neighbor to getting the dream job from Spike Lee
because she had the courage to actually, you know, ask
(48:34):
to read a script. I mean, it's really an unbelievable story.
I want to thank you so much for listening to
Climbing and Heels. If you haven't already, please subscribe to
the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, the iHeart app, or
wherever you get your podcasts. You don't miss a single
episode fifth season, and be sure to follow me on
Instagram at at rachel Zo and the show on at
(48:56):
Climbing in Heels pod for the latest episodes and updates.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
I sing too, Mu
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