March 29, 2024 • 38 mins
This week, Rachel Zoe is joined by the insanely talented and all around wonderful, Jamie-Lynn Sigler. The world fell in love with Jamie as Meadow Soprano on the hit HBO tv series the Sopranos and she quickly became a household name. While Jamie continued to work in the entertainment industry she was diagnosed with MS which she didn’t share publicly for 16 years. Listen in to Jamie's incredible story about her career, motherhood and MS.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hi everyone, I'm Rachel Zoe and you're listening to Climbing
in Heels. This show is all about celebrating the most
extraordinary superwoman who will be sharing their incredible journeys to
the top, all while staying glamorous. I'm so excited for
this week's guest because I've known her and loved her
for so many years. Today, I'm joined by the insanely
(00:29):
talented and all around wonderful, beautiful human being, Jamie Lindziegler.
The world fell absolutely in love with Jamie as Meadow
soprano on the hit HBO TV series The Sopranos, and
she quickly became a household name. While Jamie continued to
work in the entertainment industry, she was diagnosed with MS,
which she didn't share publicly for sixteen years. Yes, she
(00:53):
was hiding this. Jamie is such an inspiring woman, and
her positivity and her incredible outlook on life, her career
and motherhood is truly remarkable and beyond inspirational. So let's
just jump right in. You know, I want to talk
about your beginning, but I also really want to talk
(01:14):
about how you transitioned and pivoted. I guess from being
this like massive star on one of the biggest shows
ever to be created, to then becoming this very prominent
woman mom in all these different spaces and launching podcasts
and doing your brand and doing all these different things
(01:35):
obviously being a mom. And as we're going to get
into talking about being diagnosed with a mess and which
is wild because I feel like I didn't know anyone
with it and now I feel like I know like
ten people with it and I think there's you know,
it's almost like it's wild. So I really want to
get into this. I'm very excited to talk to you.
Where were you born because that's the one thing I
(01:57):
don't remember you from, Like where I'm from.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
I'm a Long Island girl.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
You're a Long Island girl. Yes, that's what I got
because you were too good on Sopranos to be like
from La.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
No. That was my real accent. That was that was
That's what I always say. I think that was like
the kicker that really got me the role of Meadow
was because that accent was as real as they have.
But yeah, I was born on Long Island. I've actually
I lived in Bayside, Queens for the first couple of
years of my life, and then we moved out to
Long Island. I was the youngest of three, had two
(02:28):
older brothers.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Also, things also excited things, Yes, for.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Sure, for sure. It says a lot about my personality
under absolutely being the third, the baby, the only girl,
all the things. Yeah, and I you know, nobody in
my family was in show business. There was no ties
or connections to it. I grew up like every other
kid in my neighborhood. We did dance class, we did softball,
we did tennis. I went to Hebrew school. You know,
(02:56):
I had a very, very quote unquote normal childhood. But
about the age of nine or ten, I really crave
that end of the year performance in dance school. Like
I just couldn't wait to get the costume on and
put the makeup and get up on stage. And the
(03:16):
dance school that I was in started having a musical
theater class, and I loved watching musical movies. And again
I never thought this was anything that would be for me.
I just loved it so much.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
And you like, looked forward to it, whereas I had
a panic.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Oh yes, oh my god, if it was every day
after school, I would have been so happy.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
So you had the bug I did.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
I had the bug early, and I give all the
credit to my mom. You know, she really just helped
me figure out this little dream with very little resources,
whether it's looking at news Day, which is the Long
Island newspaper to see like what auditions were available for
Community Theater, which is where I got my start, and
continue to do all the way still while I was
doing sopranos because I just loved the people that they
(03:58):
became my family. So I did every production of Annie
across Long Island that you could think of, and I started,
you know, doing a little bit more professional jobs. I
did a national tour, ones, I did summer stock, but
all the while still going to high school public school,
Jericho High School on Long Island, being with my friends.
(04:21):
And sopranos came along when I was between my sophomore
and junior year in the summer and the only reason
that I auditioned for it because prior to that, anytime
I auditioned for things, it felt like you always had
to be in a box. Sure. I always remember that
it was like all American Latina like and I just
(04:41):
never fit in that. I'm actually half Cuban, so like
that I wasn't.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
You could be a lot of things, you could be
a lot.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Which works for me now back then was frustrating. Sure,
And so when this audition came along for an Italian
looking girl for a show called Sopranos. I've told this
story before, but I thought it was music goal because
of the title. So I went in and honestly, I
just wanted I never thought i'd get it. I just
wanted to go to the city with my mom because
(05:09):
that summer I was finally going to sleep Boy Camp
like all my other friends, and I just wanted to
go shopping. And then three weeks later I got the part,
unpacked my trunk for camp, and shot the pilot that summer.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
That is the craziest And how many seasons did it run?
Speaker 2 (05:25):
So it was technically I mean, if you really counted seven,
but it was ten years.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Well I was going to say it to me, it
felt like ten at least.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Okay, yeah, because we had some long breaks in between.
So I was sixteen when we shot the pilot and
twenty six when we finished the show.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Wow, that's the thing I think with young actors, it's
it's wild, like because you see the adults more or
less look the same. But the kids you see go
from kids too. Oh yeah, you know, I mean we
just recently. I'm sure you watch with your boys, but
like my kids are obsessed with young Sheldon, and like
young Sheldon is now Young Sheldon went from being this
(06:03):
little like protege, like he was supposed to play I think,
like a ten year old genius that was like going
to high school and college and now he looks like
a college kid. And it's weird, you know, like it
is weird. It's weird because I'm like, now it's not
the cute little kid that's brilliant. Now it's actually just
like a nerdy adult, you know, sorry nerdy. I actually
(06:24):
use nerd as a compliment. I actually think.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Nerds are a nerd is like the greatest thing you.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Literally I tell my kids that all the time. I'm like,
when we were younger, nerds were like actually, like you
never wanted to be called a nerd. And now I
think when you're a nerd, you're like an inherit the
world the coolest.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
That means you're unique. You know, you're you know, you're laane.
You're not like hiding anything that's special about you.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
I totally agree. Okay, so this happens, your whole life transforms.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
My whole life changes in in subways and in some
ways not because you know, I was always performing and
then being quote unquote normal. So we were filming in
New York, I was still living at home. My mom
had to come to set with me in the beginning.
And then when it was time for college, I had
got accepted to NYU. I did not lack. I didn't
(07:15):
I was a psychology major. I did not want to
go into the acting program because I had never taken
any formal acting training and I was kind of in
a groove on the show, and I was just I
don't know. I was worried about joining a class and
sort of dissecting an acting process while I was like
in the midst of doing something. In hindsight, I don't
think that was the right choice. But I moved into
(07:36):
the dorm. I lived in Hayden on Washington Square Park
and started my freshman year, and unfortunately, you know, the
production couldn't work around my class schedule, and Sopranos wasn't
quite big enough yet for any of my professors to
really care. When I was like, so I do this
(07:56):
TV show for HBO. I don't know if you've heard
of it, but like, sometimes I'm in this class and
by the end of my first semester, I had two
professors that were failing me for missing too many classes. Wow,
and I just I had to defer and just not go.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Which I wonder if you went into the acting school,
if they would have been more yielding.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
I think it was sure, this is what, like, probably
not the best choice, but you know when I thought exactly.
Then after that, I just got an apartment in the
city and started kind of my young adult life at eighteen,
shooting the show and buckling up. I didn't realize for
you know, like an amazing ride on the show, but
(08:38):
a really wild ride in my personal life at the
same time.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Okay, so tell me and whatever you're you know, obviously,
whatever you're comfortable with.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
I mean, I'm an open book at.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
This by the way, aren't we all, like I feel
at this point, we just speak our truths. I think
it just feels better.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Absolutely, And I'm realizing that like I felt, I used
to feel so much shame about what happened to me,
and in my own journey of self discover self discovery
and growth and reflection. I just I'm ridding myself with that,
so I'm gonna talk about it. I'm happy to so.
(09:16):
In the first few seasons of Sopranos, I suffered from
an eating disorder. I'm very fortunate that I was on
a show where the size of me did not matter.
If anything, they were just more concerned about my health.
So it was never I never felt from that show
that I needed to look any particular way. But as
(09:37):
a teenage girl, I was going through a lot of
body changes and things and felt a lack of control
and died and exercise with something that I felt like
I hung on too for a little while. So dealing
with that and the show was really hard because there
was weight fluctuation in the first couple of seasons.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
And I never remembered yes actually.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Yeah, And people were not kind to me about it
in the public, like I would get yelled at things
in the street from people.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
And I'm sorry, if I can ask, was it Bolimia
and Arexa are both.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
It was exercise bolima interesting, which is where I mean.
I definitely was restricting calories pressure, but it's it's an
obsession with exercise.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Wow, where I.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Was constantly having to in my head know that I
was burning calories all the time. Okay, it's just like
my way of control, okay, And so you know, going
through that personally was super hard. But thankfully, like I
said on Sopranos, like they were the most loving, Like
if I wanted to talk about it, they would, If
I didn't, they didn't care. They accepted me any wardrobe
(10:41):
would be like what size are you this season? We've
got you whatever you.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Need, which as which was just it's so hard.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Really safe place, but so hard.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Yeah, so hard, and in front of the world too.
Yeahich makes everything one thousand times harder exactly. I always
say that about public being in the public eye. It's like,
imagine going through your life and as hard as things are,
whether it's a breakup and eating disorder, whatever it is,
and then going through it in front of the world.
So it's yeah, now add social media.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
That's right exactly. I mean, it is it makes it harder.
But I also think that there is a gift in it.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Yeah, because you're not alone.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
You're not alone. There's a lot of support that comes
along with it, and hopefully, if you have enough support,
you can start to ask the right questions and grow
from it in the right way. And so then right
after that, you know, I think like, okay, I've kind
of got that figured out, and I'm feeling better. And
then I got diagnosed with lime disease, and then a
(11:42):
year after that got rediagnosed with MS. And at that
time I was just terrified. I just felt like, here
I am with another effing problem, yeah, bringing to like,
I don't want to be this person that's always got
an issue, right, And so I didn't tell anybody, and
I kept it secret for almost sixteen years. I just
(12:06):
I think for a lot of different reasons, for fear
of how people would accept me, judge me. It allowed
me to be in denial. It allowed me to pretend
I didn't have it except when I had to, you know,
take my medication or go to a doctor's appointment. And
then all through this too, I got married, went through
a very very difficult marriage, and then went through a
(12:27):
bad divorce. So this is like all in the ten years.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
So that's from like twenty to like twenty to thirty twenty,
just say twenty to twenty six, okay, yes, which is
side the way inarguably to me one of the hardest
times in our lives because I think you're I mean,
you've been on your own obviously because you didn't go
through college, you started working and whatever. But I always
feel like those years from like twenty one twenty two
(12:52):
to like twenty six twenty eight, you're like, who am I?
I'm an adult, I'm on my own. I can't be
like mommy, mommy, mommy everything. Who's going to fix my
you know? I think we go through so many iterations
of fears, you know, and what am I doing with
my life? And like there's yeah, it's a lot, so.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Much, all of it. And I say, and Sopranos saved
me in many ways because it was the constant thing
that I had. It was a very safe place, like
I said, and you know, there were a few people
there that I did confide in and felt very safe
in and a still very close with.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Which is so nice because it's like a non blood family, so.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Nice, so nice. It's truly just the greatest blessing. But
you know I couldn't. You know, you're watching me and
you're thinking, this girl has it all in very many ways,
I did so, but you had no like with any
you have no idea, You have no idea what anybody
is ever going through. And I think that that's one
of the bigger lessons that I, you know, took from
(13:56):
that was it really shifted the way I looked at
other people and the world. Everyone I looked at, I
would just know that there was a battle, that they
were fighting, that whatever. Maybe it was none of my business,
but it made me. And I don't know if innately
this was who I am, but I feel like I
(14:18):
just really see the good in everybody, and I really
see the beauty and the magnificence in everybody because life
is just hard for all of us. Yeah, for a
lot of different reasons. I think that there's a lot
of things that get us. I think as human beings,
we actually bump up against the same things all the time.
(14:40):
The catalyst that which gets us there may look different,
the path may look different, but just knowing is like
a human being that you are not alone in your
struggle and that we're all just trying to face this pain.
I mean, now, as a forty two year old woman,
I'm looking back at the last twenty something year of
(15:00):
my life and everything that I've gone through and just
knowing like I'm gonna Robin Roberts taught me this, saying
she actually coined it for me in an interview we
just did with her. She goes, Jamie, you could take this,
She goes, take the message out of your mess. And
so that's that's what I'm trying to do, right, Yes.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Yeah, And I actually think that's one of the biggest
life lessons that I've ever you know, I've lived a
lot of life and I've seen a lot. And what
I always try to tell people when they're in it, right,
when they're going through whatever pain, that is right, because
once you get on the other side, you're like, oh,
remember that time, and you look forward to the moment
(15:39):
where you can look back and I don't want to
say laugh, but where you can speak about it in
this like healthy way, like that happened, this is how
I came out of it. Blah blah blah. Right, and
we move on because that's what we do. But I
think something good comes out of everything bad. And in
that bad moment you cannot see that, you can't see anything.
(16:00):
But I do think it really is the best coping
mechanism that I've ever had, because when you're in it.
I just try and see what's what, What am I
taking from this? And why is it happening? You can't
explain the why. You can't know, but I do think
you do always take something from it, and I think
it does shape who we are. And I don't think
(16:22):
you could be where you are now if all that
didn't happen. And it's freaking messy, and that is why
I started climbing in heels because it's messy and we
all go through a mess and like.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
And that's the name of my podcast with Christina.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
It's called Yes, Oh My God. By the way it
is called, that's really unscripted.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Listen, No I could tell, but that's it because life
is messy, and it doesn't just because you get past
something doesn't mean they're going to face something again. That
is life. But like you're saying, when you've been through
enough stuff and you give yourself the opportunity to, I
feel the emotions that you deserve to feel about it,
like I for a long time really tried to push
(17:06):
away and sort of white knuckle my way through, Like no,
I'm gonna I'm gonna be strong and I'm gonna beat
this and I'm gonna do this, and I'm going to
tell you I did that for seventeen.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
That's why the point where.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
My girlfriends would be like, we are begging you to
break down in front of us, like one day, like
show us that it's we know it's hard, and you're
not saying it's hard, and like it. I had a
girlfriend say to me one day, she was like, Jamie,
you're almost making it awkward for me because you're not
asking me to help you. And I know you need
help and I want to help you, and I just
(17:40):
you need to learn how to talk about the hard
things and not feel like being the strong one is
your identity and that if you're strong, that means you
don't talk about it be hard, of course, And I
think that now, Like so feeling those feelings and allowing
myself to feel those feelings and then seeing sort of
the beauty that can come out of it. The more
(18:02):
curveballs that life is throwing at me, yes do they
affect me, of course, and yes do I feel things,
of course, But I'm able to shift my perspective a
little sooner, a little quicker of just understanding. Okay, it's
it's basically acceptance, right, which is like the hardest thing
to do. How do we accept what's given to that,
something that we wouldn't have chosen for ourselves.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Well, it also feels more real once you accept it.
It's real.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Of course, I don't have to like it. No, you
don't have to like it. You don't have to agree
with it. But accepting it just means to me trusting
that this is for a reason that right now I
might not know suy like you said, so you won't.
You don't always know the why, just like you said.
But the trust, the faith that I lacked for so long,
(18:50):
that I've worked so hard to possess, that I really
feel like is the walk I'm trying to walk right now.
Of just I am going to accept this. I am
going to trust that this is part of my journey
for a very significant reason. And now I'm going to
figure out how to love myself with this enough to
kind of move forward. And of course, I mean I
have two little boys, I have all these reasons to
(19:13):
continue to live and pursue my life, but ultimately the
biggest reason should always be for yourself, because you deserve that,
of course, And so it's it's it's been a long,
messy road to get here, and I'm still on it
and I don't have it figured out. But that's the
whole reason Christina and I created that podcast.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Which is so amazing because, as I said, like, I
feel like I don't think I really knew anyone with
that mess I don't, I know, I know I've honestly,
it's unfortunate, but I think I know too many people
with different autoimmunes, right, and then I have way too
many people in my life battling cancer, way too many.
(19:52):
But but and this is something that you know all
of a sudden, you know. And I've known Somelma Blair
forever and ever, and you know, I think Christina, you
know I knew many years ago as this also like
just this bright shining light all the time. Yeah, and
like you know, you've always been this like to your point,
(20:14):
this very like I got my shit together right, like.
And it's funny because my friends very often won't be
like are you good? I'm like, yeah, I'm great, I'm great,
I'm great. What's going on? Talk to me? You know?
And I want to hear theirs. I don't want to
talk about mine because why right, But it's interesting to
hear you say that, because I think it is something
(20:37):
that many of us women, I think, are born with. Also,
you've been in the spotlight from a young age, and
I also think that probably factors in because you also
there is a public opinion of your life, and there
is you know, there are people watching you.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
And I want people to hire me, and I want
it right. I want them to think I'm capable and
I'm fine.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Why can't people just be and then you actually wake
up to the judgment of people. But at the end
of the day, I do think it's getting way better.
But to your point, I think we all have our
stuff right and I think you know, I hosted this
event last night with Julian Huff co hosted with me
last night. I wish you were in town. But she
(21:17):
speaks very openly about, you know, her journey and things,
and I think it to your point, I think we
all just have to look at each other like we
all have these things. We all have these journeys. Some
are harder than others, there is no question. But I
do think to your point, accepting it is such a
thing because it's scary and it feels more real and
(21:37):
it feels somehow you feel like when you accept it
and you say it out loud, now it's really going
to happen.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Yeah, now this is true.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
As if it wasn't true for like the last sixteen
seventeen years. Okay, but let me ask you a question.
So now you and Christina have the pod. I'm very
excited about it called It's messy or just messy messy. Yes,
by the way, it's such a good title because you're
not a shit messy. But I want to ask you, like,
(22:07):
how does it affect because when I saw you, I
think you were having your second How old is your
youngest He's six? He's six, so maybe you maybe it
was in.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Betwel you have The last time I saw you, you had
an event at your store to reap and the proceeds
went right. Yeah, it was probably like a year old
at that point. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
So I but I it's funny. I don't want to
say ha ha funny, but like you would tell me
that you had a mess but in a weird way.
It's not that I didn't believe you, but I was like,
but she lives such an incredibly normal life, like seemingly
yeacause you're having kids and you're like, and I said,
you know, how does this affect you?
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (22:49):
I have good days, I have bad days. Oh I
just have to take And I'm like, she's like the
poster child, literally the poster child, because it you're this
example of how to sort of say like, no, no,
I have my kids, I have my husband, I have
my life. I'm every girl's like, I'm a totally regular person.
I just have that mess and this is how I
(23:09):
deal with it. That is how you are perceived to be. Now,
so my question is, now, what made you want to
start messy? And sort of I guess, get I guess
a bit louder, and tell me about the pod, because
I don't know, are you only going to be talking
orre you just gonna be talking about life being messy?
Speaker 2 (23:28):
No, my god, it's not just about MS at all.
If anything, I think while you're listening to her and
I talk, you'll hear it through your own filter and
hear it like oh, because even our producer, who doesn't
have MS will text us after certain episodes and be like,
I needed to hear that today. Yes, I deal with
this with this and that it's not MS, but it's yes,
And I and all of our guests that are come
(23:50):
on the show as well. Each episode is completely different.
Like we had Martin Short on and it was just
him and Christina just like laughing and talking about the
great movies and projects that they've done together. And at
the end of it, I said to her, I am
so glad that I just got to listen to sixty
minutes of you remembering who the fuck you are? You
(24:12):
know what I mean. And then there was another conversation
we had Edie Falco on and her and I just
had this really incredible healing conversation about stuff we didn't
We weren't able to communicate with each other during sopranos
for our own reasons because we were in our own seads,
and now as women and peers were having and mothers
were having this conversation.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
It's just so so each episode.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Is its own thing. But my so the podcast came
because when Christina was diagnosed, our dear friend Lance Bass
put us in touch with Christina and I had met
multiple times over the years, but we weren't like friends,
like we chatted or anything, and so when she was diagnosed,
he said, you got to call Jamie, and my immediate
(24:57):
role in her life was let me help her get
through this last and of dead to me because she
was in the middle of filming, so I was like,
this is what helps me, this is what doesn't this
is what you're going to do, this is what you're
going to say. It was helping her set boundaries for
herself so that she felt safe enough to finish this
job that she loved so much. I didn't know what
my role in her life would be after that. You know,
she has Selma, she has other friends. I didn't know,
(25:19):
but we ended up just really forming a very intense
bond where we would be on the phone for three
four hours at a time, laughing, crying, and one day
she said to me, Jamie, we have to record these
conversations and put them out. I want to do this
with you. Let's do it, And I said, let's go.
We found our producer and we just started recording without
(25:42):
this is over a year ago, without any idea of
kind of what was going to happen with it, and
it just ended up being the most freeing, arapeutic, arapeutic
hour of my week. She would make me admit things
that I never thought I would admit before. She is
so willing to just be like, this sucks. It hard,
(26:03):
it's hard. I'm depressed, I'm unhappy making like you said
those things that you're afraid to say because and you
think this is always going to be this way. And
I bring whatever I bring to her, like you know,
sometimes I'm telling her, we got to get up out
of bed today, girl, we got to do it. And
we always say if we were like, if you put
us together, we'd be like the perfect little person. Well,
(26:27):
well this is it, but this is also it's also
to me. What an't my hopes for this podcast? If
I could have my greatest dream come true for this
would be that you come along on a journey with
two women, and you bring yourself along with us in
a journey of acceptance, self love, self growth, and just
(26:47):
pushing through the hard stuff. And I believe this to
be the beginning of a new chapter for us both.
I think Christina, like she said, she is done playing
the role of Christina Apple, and she's ready to be
who she is and not be ashamed of that, and
neither am I. And I'm I'm just proud of us.
(27:08):
I'm proud of us, and I hope that this allows
other people to feel like they can do the same
for themselves.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Well, I think you know, listen, I think at some
point you recognize that not only is it helping you,
but ultimately what you're doing will help countless, countless countless
people listening to it. Because listen, I think it's It's
what we talked about when we first jumped on. I
think the more we share, the more people it helps.
(27:34):
I'm sure you saw Olivia Mun's post this morning. I do,
And you know, I was with her this whole past
weekend at different events and I hadn't seen her in
a minute, and she looks breathtaking them and she's always
breathtakingly beautiful. But in any life, you would never know
what she's been through. Yeah, And to your point, you
just never know what people are going through. And you know,
(27:56):
I think that it was very brave to share what
she shared, and I think I guarantee you she literally
helped a million people today, a million young women be
like I'm going tomorrow to get checked because this business.
So I really believe that what you're doing is going
to be so advantageous for so many people. And I
also think destigmatize not being okay all the time, because
(28:20):
I think that's the thing we're afraid of, Like I.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Really do you know, we're like all the time, we're like.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
Not okay to not be okay. I also think in
addition to being in the public, I think there's a
big part I know for me as a mother, The
big part for me is we are not allowed to
not be okay, like as the mom Like we are
of course, but we're not because I think that role
(28:47):
that we immediately take on is okay, if all shit
goes to hell, We're here, We're here, We're good. Mom
is always here, Mom's stable, We're here, like you know,
And I think, you know, it's interesting because rogerays laughs
at me because like if he sneezes, I'll make him
sleep in the other room and I'll be like, what
happens to sickness and in health? I'm like not now,
I'm like, no, if I get sick, nothing happens, Like
(29:09):
mom can't go down, I can't show up at this
thing tomorrow, Like can't be sick. Not happening. I'm going
to get to be twelve shot. But I think I
think I do operate as I think many women do
on the like we can't shut down, right, we can't
be sick or we can't. And I think messy is
(29:30):
going to be so helpful to so many people because
it's going to make you guys, not just because you
have a mess, but I think it's just in general
being like, Okay, I don't have a mess, but guess
what I've got this, this and this, and whether it's physical,
emotional or whatever, it's I think it's helpful to know
we all have it, we all have something lots of something.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Like and my kids, you know, they don't know me
any other way. They've only known me with a mess.
And you know, my older one, he's ten and a half,
so obviously he's able to he's lived longer with it.
You know, you have different connections with your kids, and
they'd relate to you differently. And he is so empathetic
(30:15):
and he's so aware of meek. Yeah, and I'm really
I'm really communicative with him about it, Like I A
will say to him, buddy, like I'm having to make
this decision right now because I'm just not feeling so
great and I need you to understand, like we can't
go do to this thing with your friends for this reason.
(30:37):
And that's hard. That's hard that he has to have.
We have to take me into consideration. I don't want
to be taking I want everything to be decided for them.
But you know, he said to me the other day.
This was two nights ago. I had taken them to
baseball practice, both of them. My husband was working and
it's a big field and to navigate, and I have
my walking sick and we're going and I don't say anything,
(30:58):
and you know, he doesn't say anything. And we get
in the car and I make them dinner and I'm like,
if I even gonna take a shower, you watch your
brother eat whatever. And I came out and I sat
down with them, and he looked at me and he goes, mom,
I wouldn't want to cry. He goes, you're really doing
a good job with this whole MS thing.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
No, he didn't, And I was like, thank.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
You, And he was like, I see how hard you work,
and I promise it'll pay off, which was just like
the sweetest, most loving. But I just see the gift
that maybe this can give him to right how he
sees other people. I can understand other people. My little one, however,
(31:38):
hates it. He's pissed about it. He's mad that I'm
I can't run, He's mad that I can't play kickball
with the other mommy's in the mother son game. And
he is allowed to have those feelings, and I make
sure that he has all this space for those feelings.
He used to as a toddler like want to run
away from me all the time because he knew I
couldn't run after him like it just it triggers him
(31:59):
in a different way. So motherhood is challenging for sure?
Is so because you want to be everything? Of course,
I don't want to send my nanny out to play
basketball with them. I want to go about them, I know,
But I find other ways, and we were figuring it
out as we go. But you know is this is
everyone in my intimate circle. This effects and I'm the
(32:22):
most I'm the luckiest that I have the most supportive
husband in the world. I truly I could not be
able to sit here and speak to you in the
way that I'm speaking without his support. I really truly
believe that he's the one that reminds me on my
hardest days that I'm still me. You know that you're
(32:46):
still the Jamie I met thirteen years ago, like you've
got this, I love you, You've got us, and all the
other stuff kind of just like falls away.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
And I mean it's like it's it's wild because I
think it's sort of like you know, and I don't
mean this in the condescending way. It's just like it
comes to my head like you're doing fucking great. It's
like it's you know, it's like you are you are,
and it's like no one's going to know how you
feel except you. But I do think that you know,
(33:15):
Christina and Selma, and I think people it's like it's
like anything else in life, like un till you're experiencing it,
we can only say that, like you're heroic and you're
a fucking warrior, and I think all women are warriors
quite honestly in their own way.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Yeah, but I do think there's no playbook. No, there
is no there's no there's no writer. There's there's a
book there is there is no there's no playbook on
how to do this. But all I know is that
I show up each and every day and do the
best I can, and I have forgiveness and grace, for
grace for myself, and I if I if I didn't
(33:49):
do it right in certain ways, I'll pick up and
learn the next day, as opposed to where I used to.
Really I'm a perfectionist. So having a mess, as you
can imagine, it was really really hard to you know.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
And diagnosed as limes or limes came first. We don't know, we.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Don't know, unclear, we don't know, and I've stopped trying
to figure it out. But I think you know, But that
to me is like that to me, I know is
a part of the gift of MS for me is
being loving myself as a beautifully and perfect person and
(34:29):
the grace and that I can give myself and just
being human and allowing myself to see everybody else in that.
And I think that you know, we all have different reasons.
I have an idea of what this gift is for Christina,
and I'm just gonna watch it unfold and get to have,
you know, the best seat in the house to see it.
But you know, the hard stuff is I think what
(34:50):
really makes us who we are.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
And your boys, I promise you it's only it's only
going to help them in a thousand different ways. You're
You're always going to be their hero. No matter what,
no matter what, with or without MS, you are going
to be that queen queen.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
And they make me feel this way sometimes I think
that's why God didn't give me a girl. You just
need these men to just like pump you up all
the time.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
You know, It's true. Someone asked me if I could
draw an image of me and my kids, what would
it look like? And I said, that's so easy for me.
I'm in a long gown with a crown, and I'm
up on a throne and they're standing there in their
little prince you know, outfits with a huge shield and
a sword going, don't those hurt hers? And that's it
(35:42):
and I and it all makes sense. It's like how
And I think, to your point, you know, it's interesting
And this is not a name droppy thing. We just
happened to mom together their youngest kids. But it was
Gwen Stefani. We both got pregnant with our She got
pregnant with her last when I was pregnant with my youngest,
and I looked at her. I was like, what on earth,
Like why do we keep getting boys? And She's like,
(36:04):
We're just meant to be the queen's and she said that,
and I walked out of this event going, huh okay,
all right, I'm gonna go I'm gonna go with that.
I'm gonna go with that, and here we are going
to You're the Queen, Jamie, you are the Queen. You
are the Queen forever.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Well.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
I love you, I love having you, I love talking
to you. I want to see you. I really was
going to reach out when I was going to Austin
and then realized it was going to be there for
less than two hours.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Please, oh my god, can you imagine. Well, I'll be
in La Suitent.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Tell me I would love, love, love love to see
you honestly and give you a real life hug. Thank you,
all right, kiss the family, and I hope to see
you stand. I'm so excited about the pod.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
Thank you for having me on. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
How beautiful day you. I want to thank Jamie so
much for being on the pod today. Gaie. These work
as an actress speaks for itself. I mean, her character
and the Sopranos was literally like cult following. She was
(37:07):
like everyone wanted to be her best friend, but everyone
wanted to be her. And you know, when I got
to know Jamie later in life after she was medout,
I was like, what a normal, amazing, kind, smart, badass woman, honestly,
and I just fell so beyond in love with her,
and she became a friend. And I think for her
(37:29):
to so openly share her experience with MS and her
diagnosis on her new podcast, Messy, is truly life changing
and I think it will impact so many people living
with anything honestly, autoimmunees, MS and anything else in between,
above or below. I just love her so much and
(37:51):
I hope you enjoyed this episode, A very emotional one,
a very powerful one, Jamie. I love you. Don't forget
to write a review wherever you get your podcast because
I love reading them. And while you're at it, follow
me on out Rachel Zo at Cleaning Inhils pod on
Instagram for more updates on upcoming guests, episodes, and all
things creator. I'll see you next week. Come on
Hi everyone, I'm Rachel Zoe and you're listening to Climbing
in Heels. This show is all about celebrating the most
extraordinary superwoman who will be sharing their incredible journeys to
the top, all while staying glamorous. I'm so excited for
this week's guest because I've known her and loved her
for so many years. Today, I'm joined by the insanely
(00:29):
talented and all around wonderful, beautiful human being, Jamie Lindziegler.
The world fell absolutely in love with Jamie as Meadow
soprano on the hit HBO TV series The Sopranos, and
she quickly became a household name. While Jamie continued to
work in the entertainment industry, she was diagnosed with MS,
which she didn't share publicly for sixteen years. Yes, she
(00:53):
was hiding this. Jamie is such an inspiring woman, and
her positivity and her incredible outlook on life, her career
and motherhood is truly remarkable and beyond inspirational. So let's
just jump right in. You know, I want to talk
about your beginning, but I also really want to talk
(01:14):
about how you transitioned and pivoted. I guess from being
this like massive star on one of the biggest shows
ever to be created, to then becoming this very prominent
woman mom in all these different spaces and launching podcasts
and doing your brand and doing all these different things
(01:35):
obviously being a mom. And as we're going to get
into talking about being diagnosed with a mess and which
is wild because I feel like I didn't know anyone
with it and now I feel like I know like
ten people with it and I think there's you know,
it's almost like it's wild. So I really want to
get into this. I'm very excited to talk to you.
Where were you born because that's the one thing I
(01:57):
don't remember you from, Like where I'm from.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
I'm a Long Island girl.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
You're a Long Island girl. Yes, that's what I got
because you were too good on Sopranos to be like
from La.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
No. That was my real accent. That was that was
That's what I always say. I think that was like
the kicker that really got me the role of Meadow
was because that accent was as real as they have.
But yeah, I was born on Long Island. I've actually
I lived in Bayside, Queens for the first couple of
years of my life, and then we moved out to
Long Island. I was the youngest of three, had two
(02:28):
older brothers.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Also, things also excited things, Yes, for.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Sure, for sure. It says a lot about my personality
under absolutely being the third, the baby, the only girl,
all the things. Yeah, and I you know, nobody in
my family was in show business. There was no ties
or connections to it. I grew up like every other
kid in my neighborhood. We did dance class, we did softball,
we did tennis. I went to Hebrew school. You know,
(02:56):
I had a very, very quote unquote normal childhood. But
about the age of nine or ten, I really crave
that end of the year performance in dance school. Like
I just couldn't wait to get the costume on and
put the makeup and get up on stage. And the
(03:16):
dance school that I was in started having a musical
theater class, and I loved watching musical movies. And again
I never thought this was anything that would be for me.
I just loved it so much.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
And you like, looked forward to it, whereas I had
a panic.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Oh yes, oh my god, if it was every day
after school, I would have been so happy.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
So you had the bug I did.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
I had the bug early, and I give all the
credit to my mom. You know, she really just helped
me figure out this little dream with very little resources,
whether it's looking at news Day, which is the Long
Island newspaper to see like what auditions were available for
Community Theater, which is where I got my start, and
continue to do all the way still while I was
doing sopranos because I just loved the people that they
(03:58):
became my family. So I did every production of Annie
across Long Island that you could think of, and I started,
you know, doing a little bit more professional jobs. I
did a national tour, ones, I did summer stock, but
all the while still going to high school public school,
Jericho High School on Long Island, being with my friends.
(04:21):
And sopranos came along when I was between my sophomore
and junior year in the summer and the only reason
that I auditioned for it because prior to that, anytime
I auditioned for things, it felt like you always had
to be in a box. Sure. I always remember that
it was like all American Latina like and I just
(04:41):
never fit in that. I'm actually half Cuban, so like
that I wasn't.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
You could be a lot of things, you could be
a lot.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Which works for me now back then was frustrating. Sure,
And so when this audition came along for an Italian
looking girl for a show called Sopranos. I've told this
story before, but I thought it was music goal because
of the title. So I went in and honestly, I
just wanted I never thought i'd get it. I just
wanted to go to the city with my mom because
(05:09):
that summer I was finally going to sleep Boy Camp
like all my other friends, and I just wanted to
go shopping. And then three weeks later I got the part,
unpacked my trunk for camp, and shot the pilot that summer.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
That is the craziest And how many seasons did it run?
Speaker 2 (05:25):
So it was technically I mean, if you really counted seven,
but it was ten years.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Well I was going to say it to me, it
felt like ten at least.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Okay, yeah, because we had some long breaks in between.
So I was sixteen when we shot the pilot and
twenty six when we finished the show.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Wow, that's the thing I think with young actors, it's
it's wild, like because you see the adults more or
less look the same. But the kids you see go
from kids too. Oh yeah, you know, I mean we
just recently. I'm sure you watch with your boys, but
like my kids are obsessed with young Sheldon, and like
young Sheldon is now Young Sheldon went from being this
(06:03):
little like protege, like he was supposed to play I think,
like a ten year old genius that was like going
to high school and college and now he looks like
a college kid. And it's weird, you know, like it
is weird. It's weird because I'm like, now it's not
the cute little kid that's brilliant. Now it's actually just
like a nerdy adult, you know, sorry nerdy. I actually
(06:24):
use nerd as a compliment. I actually think.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Nerds are a nerd is like the greatest thing you.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Literally I tell my kids that all the time. I'm like,
when we were younger, nerds were like actually, like you
never wanted to be called a nerd. And now I
think when you're a nerd, you're like an inherit the
world the coolest.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
That means you're unique. You know, you're you know, you're laane.
You're not like hiding anything that's special about you.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
I totally agree. Okay, so this happens, your whole life transforms.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
My whole life changes in in subways and in some
ways not because you know, I was always performing and
then being quote unquote normal. So we were filming in
New York, I was still living at home. My mom
had to come to set with me in the beginning.
And then when it was time for college, I had
got accepted to NYU. I did not lack. I didn't
(07:15):
I was a psychology major. I did not want to
go into the acting program because I had never taken
any formal acting training and I was kind of in
a groove on the show, and I was just I
don't know. I was worried about joining a class and
sort of dissecting an acting process while I was like
in the midst of doing something. In hindsight, I don't
think that was the right choice. But I moved into
(07:36):
the dorm. I lived in Hayden on Washington Square Park
and started my freshman year, and unfortunately, you know, the
production couldn't work around my class schedule, and Sopranos wasn't
quite big enough yet for any of my professors to
really care. When I was like, so I do this
(07:56):
TV show for HBO. I don't know if you've heard
of it, but like, sometimes I'm in this class and
by the end of my first semester, I had two
professors that were failing me for missing too many classes. Wow,
and I just I had to defer and just not go.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Which I wonder if you went into the acting school,
if they would have been more yielding.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
I think it was sure, this is what, like, probably
not the best choice, but you know when I thought exactly.
Then after that, I just got an apartment in the
city and started kind of my young adult life at eighteen,
shooting the show and buckling up. I didn't realize for
you know, like an amazing ride on the show, but
(08:38):
a really wild ride in my personal life at the
same time.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Okay, so tell me and whatever you're you know, obviously,
whatever you're comfortable with.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
I mean, I'm an open book at.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
This by the way, aren't we all, like I feel
at this point, we just speak our truths. I think
it just feels better.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Absolutely, And I'm realizing that like I felt, I used
to feel so much shame about what happened to me,
and in my own journey of self discover self discovery
and growth and reflection. I just I'm ridding myself with that,
so I'm gonna talk about it. I'm happy to so.
(09:16):
In the first few seasons of Sopranos, I suffered from
an eating disorder. I'm very fortunate that I was on
a show where the size of me did not matter.
If anything, they were just more concerned about my health.
So it was never I never felt from that show
that I needed to look any particular way. But as
(09:37):
a teenage girl, I was going through a lot of
body changes and things and felt a lack of control
and died and exercise with something that I felt like
I hung on too for a little while. So dealing
with that and the show was really hard because there
was weight fluctuation in the first couple of seasons.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
And I never remembered yes actually.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Yeah, And people were not kind to me about it
in the public, like I would get yelled at things
in the street from people.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
And I'm sorry, if I can ask, was it Bolimia
and Arexa are both.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
It was exercise bolima interesting, which is where I mean.
I definitely was restricting calories pressure, but it's it's an
obsession with exercise.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Wow, where I.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Was constantly having to in my head know that I
was burning calories all the time. Okay, it's just like
my way of control, okay, And so you know, going
through that personally was super hard. But thankfully, like I
said on Sopranos, like they were the most loving, Like
if I wanted to talk about it, they would, If
I didn't, they didn't care. They accepted me any wardrobe
(10:41):
would be like what size are you this season? We've
got you whatever you.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Need, which as which was just it's so hard.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Really safe place, but so hard.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Yeah, so hard, and in front of the world too.
Yeahich makes everything one thousand times harder exactly. I always
say that about public being in the public eye. It's like,
imagine going through your life and as hard as things are,
whether it's a breakup and eating disorder, whatever it is,
and then going through it in front of the world.
So it's yeah, now add social media.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
That's right exactly. I mean, it is it makes it harder.
But I also think that there is a gift in it.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Yeah, because you're not alone.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
You're not alone. There's a lot of support that comes
along with it, and hopefully, if you have enough support,
you can start to ask the right questions and grow
from it in the right way. And so then right
after that, you know, I think like, okay, I've kind
of got that figured out, and I'm feeling better. And
then I got diagnosed with lime disease, and then a
(11:42):
year after that got rediagnosed with MS. And at that
time I was just terrified. I just felt like, here
I am with another effing problem, yeah, bringing to like,
I don't want to be this person that's always got
an issue, right, And so I didn't tell anybody, and
I kept it secret for almost sixteen years. I just
(12:06):
I think for a lot of different reasons, for fear
of how people would accept me, judge me. It allowed
me to be in denial. It allowed me to pretend
I didn't have it except when I had to, you know,
take my medication or go to a doctor's appointment. And
then all through this too, I got married, went through
a very very difficult marriage, and then went through a
(12:27):
bad divorce. So this is like all in the ten years.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
So that's from like twenty to like twenty to thirty twenty,
just say twenty to twenty six, okay, yes, which is
side the way inarguably to me one of the hardest
times in our lives because I think you're I mean,
you've been on your own obviously because you didn't go
through college, you started working and whatever. But I always
feel like those years from like twenty one twenty two
(12:52):
to like twenty six twenty eight, you're like, who am I?
I'm an adult, I'm on my own. I can't be
like mommy, mommy, mommy everything. Who's going to fix my
you know? I think we go through so many iterations
of fears, you know, and what am I doing with
my life? And like there's yeah, it's a lot, so.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Much, all of it. And I say, and Sopranos saved
me in many ways because it was the constant thing
that I had. It was a very safe place, like
I said, and you know, there were a few people
there that I did confide in and felt very safe
in and a still very close with.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Which is so nice because it's like a non blood family, so.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Nice, so nice. It's truly just the greatest blessing. But
you know I couldn't. You know, you're watching me and
you're thinking, this girl has it all in very many ways,
I did so, but you had no like with any
you have no idea, You have no idea what anybody
is ever going through. And I think that that's one
of the bigger lessons that I, you know, took from
(13:56):
that was it really shifted the way I looked at
other people and the world. Everyone I looked at, I
would just know that there was a battle, that they
were fighting, that whatever. Maybe it was none of my business,
but it made me. And I don't know if innately
this was who I am, but I feel like I
(14:18):
just really see the good in everybody, and I really
see the beauty and the magnificence in everybody because life
is just hard for all of us. Yeah, for a
lot of different reasons. I think that there's a lot
of things that get us. I think as human beings,
we actually bump up against the same things all the time.
(14:40):
The catalyst that which gets us there may look different,
the path may look different, but just knowing is like
a human being that you are not alone in your
struggle and that we're all just trying to face this pain.
I mean, now, as a forty two year old woman,
I'm looking back at the last twenty something year of
(15:00):
my life and everything that I've gone through and just
knowing like I'm gonna Robin Roberts taught me this, saying
she actually coined it for me in an interview we
just did with her. She goes, Jamie, you could take this,
She goes, take the message out of your mess. And
so that's that's what I'm trying to do, right, Yes.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Yeah, And I actually think that's one of the biggest
life lessons that I've ever you know, I've lived a
lot of life and I've seen a lot. And what
I always try to tell people when they're in it, right,
when they're going through whatever pain, that is right, because
once you get on the other side, you're like, oh,
remember that time, and you look forward to the moment
(15:39):
where you can look back and I don't want to
say laugh, but where you can speak about it in
this like healthy way, like that happened, this is how
I came out of it. Blah blah blah. Right, and
we move on because that's what we do. But I
think something good comes out of everything bad. And in
that bad moment you cannot see that, you can't see anything.
(16:00):
But I do think it really is the best coping
mechanism that I've ever had, because when you're in it.
I just try and see what's what, What am I
taking from this? And why is it happening? You can't
explain the why. You can't know, but I do think
you do always take something from it, and I think
it does shape who we are. And I don't think
(16:22):
you could be where you are now if all that
didn't happen. And it's freaking messy, and that is why
I started climbing in heels because it's messy and we
all go through a mess and like.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
And that's the name of my podcast with Christina.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
It's called Yes, Oh My God. By the way it
is called, that's really unscripted.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Listen, No I could tell, but that's it because life
is messy, and it doesn't just because you get past
something doesn't mean they're going to face something again. That
is life. But like you're saying, when you've been through
enough stuff and you give yourself the opportunity to, I
feel the emotions that you deserve to feel about it,
like I for a long time really tried to push
(17:06):
away and sort of white knuckle my way through, Like no,
I'm gonna I'm gonna be strong and I'm gonna beat
this and I'm gonna do this, and I'm going to
tell you I did that for seventeen.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
That's why the point where.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
My girlfriends would be like, we are begging you to
break down in front of us, like one day, like
show us that it's we know it's hard, and you're
not saying it's hard, and like it. I had a
girlfriend say to me one day, she was like, Jamie,
you're almost making it awkward for me because you're not
asking me to help you. And I know you need
help and I want to help you, and I just
(17:40):
you need to learn how to talk about the hard
things and not feel like being the strong one is
your identity and that if you're strong, that means you
don't talk about it be hard, of course, And I
think that now, Like so feeling those feelings and allowing
myself to feel those feelings and then seeing sort of
the beauty that can come out of it. The more
(18:02):
curveballs that life is throwing at me, yes do they
affect me, of course, and yes do I feel things,
of course, But I'm able to shift my perspective a
little sooner, a little quicker of just understanding. Okay, it's
it's basically acceptance, right, which is like the hardest thing
to do. How do we accept what's given to that,
something that we wouldn't have chosen for ourselves.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Well, it also feels more real once you accept it.
It's real.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Of course, I don't have to like it. No, you
don't have to like it. You don't have to agree
with it. But accepting it just means to me trusting
that this is for a reason that right now I
might not know suy like you said, so you won't.
You don't always know the why, just like you said.
But the trust, the faith that I lacked for so long,
(18:50):
that I've worked so hard to possess, that I really
feel like is the walk I'm trying to walk right now.
Of just I am going to accept this. I am
going to trust that this is part of my journey
for a very significant reason. And now I'm going to
figure out how to love myself with this enough to
kind of move forward. And of course, I mean I
have two little boys, I have all these reasons to
(19:13):
continue to live and pursue my life, but ultimately the
biggest reason should always be for yourself, because you deserve that,
of course, And so it's it's it's been a long,
messy road to get here, and I'm still on it
and I don't have it figured out. But that's the
whole reason Christina and I created that podcast.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Which is so amazing because, as I said, like, I
feel like I don't think I really knew anyone with
that mess I don't, I know, I know I've honestly,
it's unfortunate, but I think I know too many people
with different autoimmunes, right, and then I have way too
many people in my life battling cancer, way too many.
(19:52):
But but and this is something that you know all
of a sudden, you know. And I've known Somelma Blair
forever and ever, and you know, I think Christina, you
know I knew many years ago as this also like
just this bright shining light all the time. Yeah, and
like you know, you've always been this like to your point,
(20:14):
this very like I got my shit together right, like.
And it's funny because my friends very often won't be
like are you good? I'm like, yeah, I'm great, I'm great,
I'm great. What's going on? Talk to me? You know?
And I want to hear theirs. I don't want to
talk about mine because why right, But it's interesting to
hear you say that, because I think it is something
(20:37):
that many of us women, I think, are born with. Also,
you've been in the spotlight from a young age, and
I also think that probably factors in because you also
there is a public opinion of your life, and there
is you know, there are people watching you.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
And I want people to hire me, and I want
it right. I want them to think I'm capable and
I'm fine.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Why can't people just be and then you actually wake
up to the judgment of people. But at the end
of the day, I do think it's getting way better.
But to your point, I think we all have our
stuff right and I think you know, I hosted this
event last night with Julian Huff co hosted with me
last night. I wish you were in town. But she
(21:17):
speaks very openly about, you know, her journey and things,
and I think it to your point, I think we
all just have to look at each other like we
all have these things. We all have these journeys. Some
are harder than others, there is no question. But I
do think to your point, accepting it is such a
thing because it's scary and it feels more real and
(21:37):
it feels somehow you feel like when you accept it
and you say it out loud, now it's really going
to happen.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Yeah, now this is true.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
As if it wasn't true for like the last sixteen
seventeen years. Okay, but let me ask you a question.
So now you and Christina have the pod. I'm very
excited about it called It's messy or just messy messy. Yes,
by the way, it's such a good title because you're
not a shit messy. But I want to ask you, like,
(22:07):
how does it affect because when I saw you, I
think you were having your second How old is your
youngest He's six? He's six, so maybe you maybe it
was in.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Betwel you have The last time I saw you, you had
an event at your store to reap and the proceeds
went right. Yeah, it was probably like a year old
at that point. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
So I but I it's funny. I don't want to
say ha ha funny, but like you would tell me
that you had a mess but in a weird way.
It's not that I didn't believe you, but I was like,
but she lives such an incredibly normal life, like seemingly
yeacause you're having kids and you're like, and I said,
you know, how does this affect you?
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (22:49):
I have good days, I have bad days. Oh I
just have to take And I'm like, she's like the
poster child, literally the poster child, because it you're this
example of how to sort of say like, no, no,
I have my kids, I have my husband, I have
my life. I'm every girl's like, I'm a totally regular person.
I just have that mess and this is how I
(23:09):
deal with it. That is how you are perceived to be. Now,
so my question is, now, what made you want to
start messy? And sort of I guess, get I guess
a bit louder, and tell me about the pod, because
I don't know, are you only going to be talking
orre you just gonna be talking about life being messy?
Speaker 2 (23:28):
No, my god, it's not just about MS at all.
If anything, I think while you're listening to her and
I talk, you'll hear it through your own filter and
hear it like oh, because even our producer, who doesn't
have MS will text us after certain episodes and be like,
I needed to hear that today. Yes, I deal with
this with this and that it's not MS, but it's yes,
And I and all of our guests that are come
(23:50):
on the show as well. Each episode is completely different.
Like we had Martin Short on and it was just
him and Christina just like laughing and talking about the
great movies and projects that they've done together. And at
the end of it, I said to her, I am
so glad that I just got to listen to sixty
minutes of you remembering who the fuck you are? You
(24:12):
know what I mean. And then there was another conversation
we had Edie Falco on and her and I just
had this really incredible healing conversation about stuff we didn't
We weren't able to communicate with each other during sopranos
for our own reasons because we were in our own seads,
and now as women and peers were having and mothers
were having this conversation.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
It's just so so each episode.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Is its own thing. But my so the podcast came
because when Christina was diagnosed, our dear friend Lance Bass
put us in touch with Christina and I had met
multiple times over the years, but we weren't like friends,
like we chatted or anything, and so when she was diagnosed,
he said, you got to call Jamie, and my immediate
(24:57):
role in her life was let me help her get
through this last and of dead to me because she
was in the middle of filming, so I was like,
this is what helps me, this is what doesn't this
is what you're going to do, this is what you're
going to say. It was helping her set boundaries for
herself so that she felt safe enough to finish this
job that she loved so much. I didn't know what
my role in her life would be after that. You know,
she has Selma, she has other friends. I didn't know,
(25:19):
but we ended up just really forming a very intense
bond where we would be on the phone for three
four hours at a time, laughing, crying, and one day
she said to me, Jamie, we have to record these
conversations and put them out. I want to do this
with you. Let's do it, And I said, let's go.
We found our producer and we just started recording without
(25:42):
this is over a year ago, without any idea of
kind of what was going to happen with it, and
it just ended up being the most freeing, arapeutic, arapeutic
hour of my week. She would make me admit things
that I never thought I would admit before. She is
so willing to just be like, this sucks. It hard,
(26:03):
it's hard. I'm depressed, I'm unhappy making like you said
those things that you're afraid to say because and you
think this is always going to be this way. And
I bring whatever I bring to her, like you know,
sometimes I'm telling her, we got to get up out
of bed today, girl, we got to do it. And
we always say if we were like, if you put
us together, we'd be like the perfect little person. Well,
(26:27):
well this is it, but this is also it's also
to me. What an't my hopes for this podcast? If
I could have my greatest dream come true for this
would be that you come along on a journey with
two women, and you bring yourself along with us in
a journey of acceptance, self love, self growth, and just
(26:47):
pushing through the hard stuff. And I believe this to
be the beginning of a new chapter for us both.
I think Christina, like she said, she is done playing
the role of Christina Apple, and she's ready to be
who she is and not be ashamed of that, and
neither am I. And I'm I'm just proud of us.
(27:08):
I'm proud of us, and I hope that this allows
other people to feel like they can do the same
for themselves.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Well, I think you know, listen, I think at some
point you recognize that not only is it helping you,
but ultimately what you're doing will help countless, countless countless
people listening to it. Because listen, I think it's It's
what we talked about when we first jumped on. I
think the more we share, the more people it helps.
(27:34):
I'm sure you saw Olivia Mun's post this morning. I do,
And you know, I was with her this whole past
weekend at different events and I hadn't seen her in
a minute, and she looks breathtaking them and she's always
breathtakingly beautiful. But in any life, you would never know
what she's been through. Yeah, And to your point, you
just never know what people are going through. And you know,
(27:56):
I think that it was very brave to share what
she shared, and I think I guarantee you she literally
helped a million people today, a million young women be
like I'm going tomorrow to get checked because this business.
So I really believe that what you're doing is going
to be so advantageous for so many people. And I
also think destigmatize not being okay all the time, because
(28:20):
I think that's the thing we're afraid of, Like I.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Really do you know, we're like all the time, we're like.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
Not okay to not be okay. I also think in
addition to being in the public, I think there's a
big part I know for me as a mother, The
big part for me is we are not allowed to
not be okay, like as the mom Like we are
of course, but we're not because I think that role
(28:47):
that we immediately take on is okay, if all shit
goes to hell, We're here, We're here, We're good. Mom
is always here, Mom's stable, We're here, like you know,
And I think, you know, it's interesting because rogerays laughs
at me because like if he sneezes, I'll make him
sleep in the other room and I'll be like, what
happens to sickness and in health? I'm like not now,
I'm like, no, if I get sick, nothing happens, Like
(29:09):
mom can't go down, I can't show up at this
thing tomorrow, Like can't be sick. Not happening. I'm going
to get to be twelve shot. But I think I
think I do operate as I think many women do
on the like we can't shut down, right, we can't
be sick or we can't. And I think messy is
(29:30):
going to be so helpful to so many people because
it's going to make you guys, not just because you
have a mess, but I think it's just in general
being like, Okay, I don't have a mess, but guess
what I've got this, this and this, and whether it's physical,
emotional or whatever, it's I think it's helpful to know
we all have it, we all have something lots of something.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Like and my kids, you know, they don't know me
any other way. They've only known me with a mess.
And you know, my older one, he's ten and a half,
so obviously he's able to he's lived longer with it.
You know, you have different connections with your kids, and
they'd relate to you differently. And he is so empathetic
(30:15):
and he's so aware of meek. Yeah, and I'm really
I'm really communicative with him about it, Like I A
will say to him, buddy, like I'm having to make
this decision right now because I'm just not feeling so
great and I need you to understand, like we can't
go do to this thing with your friends for this reason.
(30:37):
And that's hard. That's hard that he has to have.
We have to take me into consideration. I don't want
to be taking I want everything to be decided for them.
But you know, he said to me the other day.
This was two nights ago. I had taken them to
baseball practice, both of them. My husband was working and
it's a big field and to navigate, and I have
my walking sick and we're going and I don't say anything,
(30:58):
and you know, he doesn't say anything. And we get
in the car and I make them dinner and I'm like,
if I even gonna take a shower, you watch your
brother eat whatever. And I came out and I sat
down with them, and he looked at me and he goes, mom,
I wouldn't want to cry. He goes, you're really doing
a good job with this whole MS thing.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
No, he didn't, And I was like, thank.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
You, And he was like, I see how hard you work,
and I promise it'll pay off, which was just like
the sweetest, most loving. But I just see the gift
that maybe this can give him to right how he
sees other people. I can understand other people. My little one, however,
(31:38):
hates it. He's pissed about it. He's mad that I'm
I can't run, He's mad that I can't play kickball
with the other mommy's in the mother son game. And
he is allowed to have those feelings, and I make
sure that he has all this space for those feelings.
He used to as a toddler like want to run
away from me all the time because he knew I
couldn't run after him like it just it triggers him
(31:59):
in a different way. So motherhood is challenging for sure?
Is so because you want to be everything? Of course,
I don't want to send my nanny out to play
basketball with them. I want to go about them, I know,
But I find other ways, and we were figuring it
out as we go. But you know is this is
everyone in my intimate circle. This effects and I'm the
(32:22):
most I'm the luckiest that I have the most supportive
husband in the world. I truly I could not be
able to sit here and speak to you in the
way that I'm speaking without his support. I really truly
believe that he's the one that reminds me on my
hardest days that I'm still me. You know that you're
(32:46):
still the Jamie I met thirteen years ago, like you've
got this, I love you, You've got us, and all the
other stuff kind of just like falls away.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
And I mean it's like it's it's wild because I
think it's sort of like you know, and I don't
mean this in the condescending way. It's just like it
comes to my head like you're doing fucking great. It's
like it's you know, it's like you are you are,
and it's like no one's going to know how you
feel except you. But I do think that you know,
(33:15):
Christina and Selma, and I think people it's like it's
like anything else in life, like un till you're experiencing it,
we can only say that, like you're heroic and you're
a fucking warrior, and I think all women are warriors
quite honestly in their own way.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Yeah, but I do think there's no playbook. No, there
is no there's no there's no writer. There's there's a
book there is there is no there's no playbook on
how to do this. But all I know is that
I show up each and every day and do the
best I can, and I have forgiveness and grace, for
grace for myself, and I if I if I didn't
(33:49):
do it right in certain ways, I'll pick up and
learn the next day, as opposed to where I used to.
Really I'm a perfectionist. So having a mess, as you
can imagine, it was really really hard to you know.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
And diagnosed as limes or limes came first. We don't know, we.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Don't know, unclear, we don't know, and I've stopped trying
to figure it out. But I think you know, But that
to me is like that to me, I know is
a part of the gift of MS for me is
being loving myself as a beautifully and perfect person and
(34:29):
the grace and that I can give myself and just
being human and allowing myself to see everybody else in that.
And I think that you know, we all have different reasons.
I have an idea of what this gift is for Christina,
and I'm just gonna watch it unfold and get to have,
you know, the best seat in the house to see it.
But you know, the hard stuff is I think what
(34:50):
really makes us who we are.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
And your boys, I promise you it's only it's only
going to help them in a thousand different ways. You're
You're always going to be their hero. No matter what,
no matter what, with or without MS, you are going
to be that queen queen.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
And they make me feel this way sometimes I think
that's why God didn't give me a girl. You just
need these men to just like pump you up all
the time.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
You know, It's true. Someone asked me if I could
draw an image of me and my kids, what would
it look like? And I said, that's so easy for me.
I'm in a long gown with a crown, and I'm
up on a throne and they're standing there in their
little prince you know, outfits with a huge shield and
a sword going, don't those hurt hers? And that's it
(35:42):
and I and it all makes sense. It's like how
And I think, to your point, you know, it's interesting
And this is not a name droppy thing. We just
happened to mom together their youngest kids. But it was
Gwen Stefani. We both got pregnant with our She got
pregnant with her last when I was pregnant with my youngest,
and I looked at her. I was like, what on earth,
Like why do we keep getting boys? And She's like,
(36:04):
We're just meant to be the queen's and she said that,
and I walked out of this event going, huh okay,
all right, I'm gonna go I'm gonna go with that.
I'm gonna go with that, and here we are going
to You're the Queen, Jamie, you are the Queen. You
are the Queen forever.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Well.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
I love you, I love having you, I love talking
to you. I want to see you. I really was
going to reach out when I was going to Austin
and then realized it was going to be there for
less than two hours.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Please, oh my god, can you imagine. Well, I'll be
in La Suitent.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Tell me I would love, love, love love to see
you honestly and give you a real life hug. Thank you,
all right, kiss the family, and I hope to see
you stand. I'm so excited about the pod.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
Thank you for having me on. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
How beautiful day you. I want to thank Jamie so
much for being on the pod today. Gaie. These work
as an actress speaks for itself. I mean, her character
and the Sopranos was literally like cult following. She was
(37:07):
like everyone wanted to be her best friend, but everyone
wanted to be her. And you know, when I got
to know Jamie later in life after she was medout,
I was like, what a normal, amazing, kind, smart, badass woman, honestly,
and I just fell so beyond in love with her,
and she became a friend. And I think for her
(37:29):
to so openly share her experience with MS and her
diagnosis on her new podcast, Messy, is truly life changing
and I think it will impact so many people living
with anything honestly, autoimmunees, MS and anything else in between,
above or below. I just love her so much and
(37:51):
I hope you enjoyed this episode, A very emotional one,
a very powerful one, Jamie. I love you. Don't forget
to write a review wherever you get your podcast because
I love reading them. And while you're at it, follow
me on out Rachel Zo at Cleaning Inhils pod on
Instagram for more updates on upcoming guests, episodes, and all
things creator. I'll see you next week. Come on
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