November 24, 2021 • 45 mins
Nothing drains your bank account faster than the cost of getting diagnosed and treated. We discuss creative ways to finance treatment and hear from those who have done it. We learn some helpful hints!
Special Guests: Kara Dunham Lee (IG: karadunhamlee). Follow Kristin on Instagram: Kristin - @kristin_e_nobles and Christine on Twitter: @CMTorres1017 For more information: www.sicktitties.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Close to the Chest with Kristin and Christine is brought
to you by I Heart Radio. My name is Kristin
Nobles In. Today is November twenty. This week's episode is
about finance and breast in plant illness. Ironically, my background
is in finance, and I look at the investment I
made and breast implants over twenty years ago. I was
so young, and for a long time I was really
(00:21):
mad at myself because I can't afford these implants. What
it's cost me to maintain my body, to try and
save my life. I have struggled at times. I've almost
gone homeless. I have been helpless. I have leaned on
friends and family members, all while working at times six
figure jobs. But this has been so expensive. I have
suffered so much. And when I took a step back
(00:43):
and realized what was happening and put my finance hat on,
I started to realize that this wasn't something I asked for,
This wasn't a good investment, it wasn't fair. No one
gave me the full disclosures to all the risks. No
one told me that I could lose almost everything and
that it would cost millions of dollars to maintain these
and I would maybe die. I didn't get the return,
(01:04):
and I don't even know what I invested in looking
better my idea of success. At the time, I was
twenty something years old. So in order to heal, one
of the most important things I've had to do is
recover financially. I've had to come up with a plan
in order to be able to get the treatment I
deserve to get insurance, to take a step back and
figure out what happened and how do I move forward.
But what I want every woman know that's listening right
(01:26):
now is we have nothing to be ashamed of. For
a long time, I was embarrassed that pressed implants cost
me everything, But now, like you, I want to scream
it from the rooftop so it doesn't happen to other people.
Money and this issue is tough. It is almost impossible
to afford these implants, and what it cost me is everything.
But what's gotten me through this is knowing that all
(01:48):
of us are struggling, that this isn't something I should
be ashamed of. I didn't ask for this, and I'm
not going to give up, and just know that together
we are not alone to be the sin and then
question dout spot walk into the room, heads turning on
down side, Christine, this week's episode is a very taboo
(02:18):
and complex topic, almost as much as talking about our boobs.
It's actually money, you know, one of the most grueling
issues that affects all of us. You know, the challenges
we face as patients. Funding the exorbitant costs associated with
breast implant illness is exorbitant, as I said, and I'm
truly amazed at what it costs to treat the disease.
(02:41):
And I'm in awe of how survivors do it and
inspired how they creatively financed the diagnostic, the treatment, and
the recovery process. But I'm also really sad at what
we've had to sacrifice financially to try and heal. This
is not easy for most of us to talk about,
as the financial impact is a very hard thing to
even quantify. And the conversation is not just about money,
(03:04):
you know, I think it's about the injustice. For me,
the financial cost of this has become unbearable and it's
the toughest part to ever talk about. I don't know
how I've made it this far, and I still have
so far to go. Well, christ and I know it
is uncomfortable, but let's use your experience as an example
to help our listeners understand the true cost of the
(03:25):
disease as well as the obstacles you face trying to survive.
Many people break down the costs in terms of the
doctor's fees, diagnostic procedures, and the amount to do the explant,
but it really is so much more than that. It's
so much more and hard to even quantify, given you
have the sunk cost of what you put into the
(03:48):
and plans to get them in the first place, and
then after the explant, you have the long term costs
given the damage that's been done to your body, then
adding all the opportunity cost of time off of work,
and for me, it is unrealized potential because I couldn't work,
and it's really hard to come up with a number.
It seems like there's no limit for me. The cost
is still infamite and is ongoing, and it's honestly the
(04:10):
most stressful and shameful part of my journey, and it's
impossible at times, it's embarrassing. I mean, I have a
background in finance and this has cost me everything, and
I still struggle it's hard to put a number to
it given the freakonomics of all of it. Well, what
has this cost you so far? I mean, can you
give me a number? Maybe hundreds thousands. It's like an
(04:33):
essay t question. Kristen got breast, But did they cost
because it's millions? Right? If you put you put this
together like a word problem. You know, assume that this
cost me half my life, and most of that was
my adult life, right, And the worst part was when
I didn't have money that delayed my treatment. And the
longer it delays your treatment, the longer it takes to
(04:54):
get healed, and the more damage it's done to your body.
So not having money actually cost you more on the run.
So just think about like my situation. I've been sick
for over twenty years. You've read my chart. I have
how many diseases? And on average to manage all of
that it cost me a quarter of a million dollars
a year. Really, I think I do. And now multiply
(05:19):
that where again by twenty years, two fifty thousand times
twenty and it's in the millions. I had no idea
it was worth that, or anyone who even has that
to spend on themselves. I literally just got a statement
from my insurance company bragging that they saved me, not spent,
but saved me dollars so far this year. So I'm
(05:39):
ninety days only into my fiscal year, just ninety days,
and they've saved me ten times of what it would
cost to do the surgery. So there's got to be
a better way to do this given everything we know,
and it seems to be in their interest to fix
this faster, right, it costs them more money the longer
we're sick. Christen, that is insane. That is so insane.
(06:02):
Can we break that down? I mean, the first major
issue the fact that b I I takes so long
to diagnose, and then once it is the explant surgery
is not always covered by insurance. The average explant costs well.
According to Plastic surgery dot org, they say the average
(06:22):
cost for breast implant removal surgery is three thousand dollars.
According to the American Society of Plastic Surgeons, they estimate
the average breast implant removal surgery costs two thousand sixty one.
Those are both very oddly specific. They both agree that
(06:45):
those quotes are only part of the total price. What
they haven't included is the surgeons feed, the hospital or
surgical facility costs, or the anesthesia fees, the prescription for
medication fees, the post surgery garment fees, the medical test fees,
the X ray fees, the complication fees, the sounds like
(07:08):
with all these extra features, fees upon fees upon fees.
So let's say conservatively, and I think this is your quote, Kristen,
fifteen thousand dollars for the surgery, but it can be
much higher. I mean, it doesn't include the diagnostic process,
because as we've learned, this is a diagnosis of exclusion.
(07:32):
It doesn't include any cost if there are complications or
if you want a reconstruction. I mean, when you got
your implants, did anyone tell you might need to have
them removed or that it might cost you an arm
and a leg to do it now? And it got
more than that. They take my arm, my leg, my hips,
(07:53):
my gallbladder and my append nicks, and I mean alas
goes on and on right, and honestly, Chris, oh, they didn't.
And then imagine you find this out, you're getting sicker,
and you're trying to finance all this while being so sick.
It for me became a losing proposition because most people
think when you're sick, you should rest and do self care.
(08:14):
But for me, I had to get this money to
be better, so I had to work harder to afford
the care. And as sick as people are, it's hard
to get work, you know, plus think keep them in
a lot of the women I know that god implants
were in the entertainment industry where their appearance is part
of their job. So a lot of them were afraid
that if they removed their implants, they wouldn't even be
(08:36):
able to get work. Can you imagine, you know? I
was very ashamed to when people had asked me, well,
why don't you just get them out, and I'd have
to tell them that I didn't have fifteen thousand dollars
to pay for another surgery. I mean, I was embarrassed.
I didn't have the money and I thought I couldn't
afford to take care of myself like It came with
such shame. And I think now we're starting to get
(08:59):
to the place where hopefully they will with this new
black box Morning fixed this issue and women will know
the risk and the financial things that can happen. But
think about the millions of women like me who got
the implants, were sick for years and did not know
this could happen to them. It seems like you're on
a hamster wheel. I mean, Kristen, I don't think you
(09:21):
should be ashamed. One of the most common things clogging
the bankruptcy cords today is the amount of soul crushing
medical debt Americans have. I mean, we are drowning in
medical bills, and now with COVID, I mean, it's going
(09:42):
to get even worse. On average. I think we've heard
that diagnostic, treatment and recovery process range can cost upwards
of dollars to hundreds of thousands of dollars, and then
don't forget to add in the original surgery costs. I
(10:02):
think that's key because one of the things I think
that it is so important about this disease is to
recognize that it is a disease and it's not something
we elected to have. It wasn't part of the package.
And for many of us, there's frustration because the illness
is currently not recognized as a disability, so we you know,
(10:23):
can't get help if we can't work, and the treatment
protocol is still being researched and flushed out, so there's
no clear path to recovery. And for instance, in my case,
this has been affecting me for over twenty years, and
back then we had this thing called a pre existing condition.
So for example, with my gastro parisis, if I wanted
(10:43):
to change my insurance plan, my feeding tubes, my hospitalizations,
none of that was covered. So I'm thankful now at
least like all of these conditions and issues we have
are covered. We can get treatment with insurance for these
emergency issues. But the insurance companies you know, still don't
recognize B I I and so that makes it difficult
(11:06):
to even go to insurance companies to get it treated.
So most of this is out of pocket. Still, what
was it like when insurance companies could deny paying for
necessary treatments and procedures because they were considered pre existing.
I was petrified. Well, hasn't really changed. I mean, insurance
companies still run the show and determining what they want
(11:28):
to pay. And because you said, it's still not an
easy option. But for an insurance company to cover an explant,
women have to have had a rupture or toxicity or
be covered because of breast cancer. I mean even in
that scenario, there are not many plastic surgeons who take
insurance exactly. So imagine your frustration. You've spent all this
(11:53):
time and money getting diagnosed, you finally get insurance coverage.
For me, it was like the highlight of my life.
And then I couldn't find a surgeon in network. And
this is a huge issue women are facing. They can't
find doctors to help them and they have insurance. Well,
research shows that most plastic surgeons are not in network.
(12:15):
Is this because the insurance companies negotiate lower fees or
the cost of managing the claims process and getting paid
most likely both, And that a lot of plastic surgery
is seen as an elected procedure and they're done in
these beautiful for profit private surgery centers. Some even have
their own consumer financing, and as we know, that can
(12:39):
be really expensive with super high interest rate. And many
women are already paying years for the implants they have
in now now compound another procedure and more cost, and
it's going to take them forever to pay it back.
So I can tell you, even with insurance, to paying
for this, it's been crushing because I have keep in
mind premiums, I've got to pay co pays, deductibles, and
(13:02):
if I want reconstruction, that's not covered. Yeah, you have
to make a lot of money to afford this. I mean,
nothing drains your bank account faster than medical debt. Just
doing the simple math, it sounds like you need to
win the lottery, which is, in my opinion, never a
sound financial plan. But you know, I'm not a financial planner,
(13:24):
But I mean it's nice if you have that kind
of luck. Well, seriously, I don't know if I can
dust off my four leaf over to pay for this.
But seriously, you know, no one told me this upfront.
And if I think about just the hundreds of thousands
of dollars I've invested, no one hinted at what this
could cost me. No one told me that I would
be sick or on the verge of bankruptcy, that my
(13:45):
credit could be destroyed, I would possibly go homeless, and
the amount of medical debt I would have would outweigh
potentially my earning potential. Think about that. So you know,
I put my finance hat on with this, and I
pair these implants to like the liar's loans that collapse
the mortgage industry. It was very clear when those people
(14:06):
got those loans, they proved that they could not afford
to make the payments, and the mortgage companies didn't qualify
them as buyers. So they ultimately CRISP were held responsible,
and I truly hope we get to a place where
the manufacturers are held responsible for what this cost us. Well. Currently,
Breston plant illness is not categorized as a disease, therefore
(14:31):
it does not have an insurance code. Therefore it doesn't
have a means to be treated by insurance. So some
doctors are working around this and justifying the removal of
the implant for causes like rupture exactly. I was fortunate
enough that my doctor found a way to get me covered,
(14:52):
but it's not easy. And until this disease is recognized
with something called an ice E D code, so it's
got its own name and its own treatment protocol, women
are going to struggle. And when that day comes it
will be game changing. But well, until that happens, I mean, Christen,
what can women do? Well, let's ask one. Our next
(15:15):
guest is someone who I consider a good friend. Her
name is Kara, Dunham Lee, and she's a holistic health
coach and currently surviving b I I and she and
I talked a lot about this issue we both struggled in.
She speaks quite eloquently about overcoming shame and living a
fear based life as you go through this process, and
(15:37):
tips on how to survive and thrive. Fine, thank you
so much for joining Christine and I are close to
the chest and being willing to talk about what we
go through is b II patients trying to finance our disease.
(15:58):
And I'm super excited to talk to because you sent
me a message that was just so open and honest
about what you're experiencing as a BII patient. Do you
mind sharing with the listeners a bit about where you're
at right now in your BI journey. Yes, Actually, thank
you so much for having me. I'm so excited because
I know, even since we've connected, it is amazing how
(16:18):
people really still just don't know about what this is.
One of the things that I was excited about because
after we talked and we were talking about finances, I
was actually set to explant next Friday, and literally my
financial backing fell through today and I'm just like I'm
so sad because it's just it's heartbreaking because one of
(16:39):
the biggest problems that I've experienced is just this severe
decline in health in a matter of months, you know.
And so it was crazy because it was ten years coming.
But then this last couple of years has just hit
so hard that you know, there's job loss involved. For me.
There's just thousands of dollars in medical visits that everybody
(17:04):
keeps saying, Oh, there's nothing wrong with you, there's nothing
wrong with you, and it's like, I can't walk you guys,
something's wrong. Um, And then I'm not sure to you, like,
especially with your experience, but mine and a couple other ladies,
like you know, they came back one time for me
and they're like, oh, you might have multiple scrosses. Well
that's really terrifying, and you might have lupus, and you
(17:25):
might have this, and you might have that. And so
then you just wait and wait, and you're you're excited
that you don't have that diagnosis and yet you still
don't have any being able to finance your disease being
treated in that hope and the creativity you have to
use to get there. When you say that what was
your current option to finance and do you mind sharing
with the listeners what procedure you're trying to have. Sure, So,
(17:47):
first of all, I'm having just an explant. The doctor
I saw wait six months to do a lift. So
if that's something you want, you go back later. And
so for me, we have you know, we've gotten really creative.
It's you know, I had an average in Florida, like
the top nine doctors or over ten thousand dollars for
X plan. I was fortunate that this this man is
(18:08):
six thousand dollars. But that's a lot of money, right.
Are you financing this yourself out of pocket? Yes, we are.
We're cash flowing it mostly because we've started on a
debt free journey last year and we've actually paid off
over forty four thousand dollars. Um. Yeah, it's been amazing. Um,
it's been insane and sometimes it wasn't easier fun, but
(18:30):
it was one of those things where I thought I
had time, so the surgery wasn't my top priority. It
was trying to get out of debt. But then when
my symptoms increased, you know, now we're out of money,
and um, we have two thousand dollars right, So today
the other four thousand was going to come from Alan
finally that we had been able to um I was
going to take it ended up being um, you know,
(18:53):
three months of my paycheck early and then it couldn't happen.
And so that's just like it just it's crushing. Actually,
well to stop your karra so that and do you
have health insurance as well, because you do not know.
That's the other issue, which brings up something that I'm
a little worried about because as we all kind of
(19:13):
are starting to hear, like what if say you come
back with a cancer diagnosis, Well, then then what do
you do? Like what do I do then? Because if
I don't have health insurance, I can't fund cancer treatment.
And I mean there's no way. It's all kind of
I don't know, you know, that's the next stuff. I
don't even know what that looks like. In I talked
with a girl this morning over coffee who just found
(19:34):
out and that's what she thinks is wrong with her.
She also doesn't have health insurance. So what happens after
the surgery is something none of us ever thought about either.
You know, in the States, a lot of people perceive
that you can go to your insurance if you have
it and they will just take these out. And even
if you have health insurance, it's not guaranteed that you're covered.
You know, insurance does step in when you have cancer.
(19:55):
There are reactive programs out there that will help you.
But I think, as you've gone out and you've done
in a using amount of research, how many doctors did
you talk to to find this quote of six thousand dollars?
I've personally talked to probably you know, ten different offices,
but then stalked hundreds online, right, And I have talked
(20:15):
to so many women in the rest and Plant Illness group.
Then there's a Florida Rest and Plant Illness group that
I found and I probably individually spoke with about fifty
of them. And you just that's the other part of this.
You you end up getting to where you're so overwhelmed
to even make a choice, right because it is it's cost.
It's like, do I go with the most expensive person?
(20:36):
Does that mean they're better? Do I go with this
guy who can get me in a two weeks versus
the guy that I'm supposed to wait two years? Like?
Is he better? Like it is he better because he
did the Bachelorette? You know, like, I don't know, it's
just crazy. So for me, and I don't know where
you sit in this, but my self esteem took a
hit because I couldn't afford to save my life. Oh yeah,
it makes you not sleep at night and you feel
(20:58):
that's what. Oh my, this is just crazy that you
said that, because like yesterday, like I just sat in
the parking lot afterwards and I was just like, you know,
eleven years ago, I I thought it was safe, you know,
and I thought that it was gonna be okay, and
I felt so naive because I felt like it's all
my fault. And I mean, I know, obviously things have
(21:19):
happened in eleven years too that are different, but I
just like I feel guilty that I mean, I'm I'm
also angry that I'm in this position. I'm angry that
now I'm putting my family in buying to pay rent
because I need to have surgery because I don't want
to die. It's so frustrating and it's scary, and it's
just like, wow, that's great. I just you know, all
(21:41):
the stuff, and yeah, so what you said is just
you feel I feel like a horrible person also on
top of it, just because I want to get well.
And I will say this, you are not only not
alone in those feelings, but the validation that you weren't
giving full of disclosure is very It's honest. The fact
that you're piste off is honest. Kara Um. You know,
(22:03):
I do some journaling for the show, and people don't
see us on the floor crying. They don't hear us
negotiate in our head if life insurance is a better
investment than surgery, yeah, because you don't. You don't want
to be a dream And I think what we have
to really do as a paradigm shift in this situation,
and what I hope is the gift of our friendship.
Does that number when we didn't do this to ourselves,
(22:25):
you didn't choose this, and if it was six thousand dollars,
six hundred thousand dollars, the reason we connected is you
really wanted to share your story, because the average woman
doesn't have a hundred thousand dollars sitting in the bank
to take time off work, go get the surgery. You
find the best doctor, network to the best person, and
I think for you going forward, you know what I
hear you saying through your own self talk and experiences
(22:47):
that this has cost you a lot, right, Like it's
more than money. What would you estimate this has cost
you in the past eleven years in total time and
money time like so much because you know, you sit
up at night worrying about what's wrong with you, so
money uneasy at this point over the whole eleven years,
(23:08):
like maybe a hundred thousand or more. And then that's
just to this point. You know, who's who knows what's
to come, because I know. The other thing I've been
looking into is, you know, how do I detox afterward?
How do I get well after? And so if you
go to a natural path, you know, and they don't
take insurance either, and we are the ones I've talked to, don't.
(23:30):
I don't even think it's a thing in the insurance
world yet. Hopefully it will be someday. Um, but you know,
I was figuring up the one I was specifically talking to.
It would be about six thousand dollars to treat for
a year. That's out of pocket. So again it's like, okay,
that's great. And then integrative medicine doctors are also amazing,
(23:50):
but highly unlikely insurance covers it. If you have insurance,
so then you're still out of pocket. So so explanting
itself does do a lot to at least make your
body quit fighting what's inside you, but in order to
get well, you still need money afterwards. And that was
one of the things that hit me really hard. I
was like, wow, like you you don't everything about that.
(24:12):
I mean I didn't anyway, And and it's another you
know process. I mean, who knows what's going to happen
in the next five years. I mean, for me, I'm
really positive and I hope everything's gonna be great, but
I still know that there's a base amount of money
I'm going to need to also spend to get well.
A lot of women are out there doing go fund
mes or kickstarters. Is that something you've thought about doing,
is a creative way to raise money or has it
(24:34):
been something that's you know, held back, because obviously I
know you're probably very proud. Yeah, And it's just it's
interesting that you asked because one of my friends who
actually gets a girl who was looking at implanting and
is like, studied it for five years, Thank goodness. She
she didn't. She was one who kind of turned me
back onto v I I because I'd heard about it,
(24:54):
you know, like six years ago, and I just never registered.
So anyway, she asked me just the other day, She's like,
have you thought about doing a go fund Me? And
I just, you know, it's crazy because I don't know
why I would give people in a go fund me money,
But I just it doesn't feel bad, and I don't
think it should, but it does, and I just so
(25:16):
Yet no, I am so against it, and yet I
don't know. There's your friend. I can say that both Christine,
myself and all of the women in the community are
here for you. And you know you are a fighter.
We're going to get the right solution for you. But
if you had, you know, one thing you wanted to
share with the women out there, as someone trying to
(25:37):
finance their explant, how do you keep going Kara? Oh,
that's crazy. Um, you know, I've always just spent. I mean,
it's kind of like this this weird thing that it
came from just losing so many people from a really
young age. But I just like I love life, like
(25:58):
and I've always said a millions times in different scenarios
like as long as there is life, there's hope, right
the only for sure thing like that is in this
world as far as like if you're dead, and even
then who knows. But I just like, I keep going
because I want I love life, like even as bad
as some stuff sucks, like it doesn't matter, like I
(26:20):
just I don't know. And the older I get, and
even when things get crazy like this, like there's just
the fact that we there, we're talking today and we're awake,
Like that's why I keep going because I don't know.
I always used to laugh when I as a kid,
my mom would tease me because I'm like, I'm just curious,
Like I don't I just want to see what happens.
I just want to see what happens tomorrow. And here's
(26:42):
the thing I'd like to wrap this up and share
where their listeners. You know, you're not having house insurance.
It's not something that's uncommon in the US. It's very
expensive and it also doesn't guarantee treatment. And so I
think as we move forward, we're going to really help
the listeners. This is an ongoing problem. It's not going
to be solved overnight, but with a community of brave
(27:02):
asked women like yourself that are willing to face the shame,
be vulnerable and not play into that narrative. We will
get the attention, we will get the regulation, and we
will create something that our daughters, our nieces, our sisters
do not have to deal with going forward in life.
And your bravery is worth its weight in gold. Thank you. Yes,
(27:23):
it's just there will be there will be progress. Oh,
I love it. Wow, Kristen, Why is it so hard
to reach out and ask for help? How did that
(27:44):
make you feel? Well? Chris, honestly sad and motivated. You know,
one of the common things we hear with women is
the guilt they feel. I think in order to overcome this,
we need to really destigmatize the disease and remind everybody,
from the victims to the insurance companies that we did
not elect for this. But there's also a financial case
to be made to treat this disease with the urgency
(28:06):
it deserves. As they say, time is money, and the
longer it takes us to be treated, the more it
cost us in terms of health and money. I think
with the right support, there is a financial case to
be made that delayed treatment costs everyone too much. The
insurance companies are starting to recognize this and ultimately understanding
that treatment saves lives and money in the long run. Well,
(28:29):
announce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. It
sounds like there is a lot to be gained by
the insurance companies helping women get treated sooner so they
don't have long term expenses because of permanent damage to
your body. So how about we talk about financing. From
where I'm sitting, I see five options for financing. One insurance,
(28:52):
then out of pocket, which is your savings, Uh, start
a go funding campaign or other kind of crowdfunding. You
can take out loans, or you could put it all
on your credit card. Right, that's crazy when you say
that that was not in the disclosure when I got
these And these are all the options we have right now.
Plus there's this thing called the swap out if the
(29:15):
implants you have are we called But keep in mind
this requires you to get new implants and that is
not recommended for b II patients. I did this, but
without the money. It required me to waive all my
future claims as well and my gut during the process
of that time periods at hell now, and the manufacturer
will not pay the full cost of the removal either.
(29:37):
So really, given those options, most women are seeing a
long delay in their care as they try and pull
together the funds to be able to afford treatment. Well
on that swap out as not your attorney not giving
legal advice. Thank God for your gut. This does not
seem like justice. I mean, according to the manufacturer, if
(29:59):
you don't have any symptoms, you don't need to do anything.
Even if you have the breast implants that are recalled
inside you, you can take the weight and see approach
with respect to seeing if maybe you will maybe won't
develop B I, A A, L C L. But what
if that makes you anxious? Absolutely? Oh they may or
(30:25):
may not cause cancer. Let's see what happens. So there
are two possible options for reducing that risk. First, you
can swap out the recalled implants for others that haven't
been recalled. Now, remember this recall also is voluntary recall.
It's not a mandatory recall, so you can kind of
(30:46):
swap out the ones that have been advised to be
recalled for ones that haven't yet been recalled or may
never be recalled. Who knows. Um at no cost um.
The manufacturer's very generous offer of giving you the implants
won't cost you anything, but don't forget you still have
to pay for the surgeon and the facility, and don't
forget all those fees upon fees upon fees. The simple exchange,
(31:10):
according to the manufacturer, will reduce your B I, A, A, L,
C L risk, But no one can identify by exactly
how much might be little, might be a lot, who knows,
or you can just remove the capsule and the implant
and they don't pay for that. So that's that's so frustrating.
(31:32):
I mean, so first, I think the key lesson we learned,
and you know, obviously I'm proof of this, is that
if you can get insurance, because you're going to need
it for not only the explant, but the diagnostic process,
any complications you have in your long term recovery. Many
people like me have diseases now that we're going to
(31:52):
have to manage forever, and insurance is how I finally
was able to get mine removed. And it also covered
my camp locations, of which there were many exactly, and
you know, we noted for some people this is cost
prohibitive because you have a large family, it's very expensive.
And I encourage listeners to look now into insurance again
(32:13):
because there are subsidies. And once you get a list
of companies that maybe you can get subsidized or you
think are a fit through someone, ask each of those
companies for a list of surgeons that they have within
their network and call around and see which ones actually
do explants. And a lot of people chose their insurance
company based on who their surgeon used, right and once
(32:35):
they have that, there's also the option if you do
have insurance right now and they say they don't have
somebody in network, ask if they have coverage for any
doctors out of network. Some companies will pay a percentage
of the claim and you can submit that once you've
done the surgery and hopefully recoup at least a portion
or all of what you spent. So those are two
(32:56):
options with insurance. Well that's creating from sation because as
we've learned that if you're paying out of pocket, cash
is king, and don't forget that you can always negotiate. Um.
You can negotiate with the surgeon, you can negotiate with
the hospital. Call them see if you can negotiate your
bill down and then call them again and negotiate further
(33:19):
UM and the same goes during your recovery. I mean,
God forbid, you have complications and need to be hospitalized
for further treatment, you can always negotiate and if need
be asked for a payment arrangement or some kind of
financial assistance. I mean, the important thing is that it's
better to have this kind of communication with the hospital
(33:43):
and um, the billing department. It's better to confront your
options rather than to just sweep them under the rug
and pretend they're not there, because you can always negotiate
and figure out a way through so that you can
get the health care that you need exactly. And most
places have a social worker that will talk to you
and help you find out what options are available, and
(34:05):
they know the programs, and it's been super helpful for
me throughout this twenty year journey. I've used that several times.
And another thing I tried Chris early on was a
go fund me campaign. It was really important for me
to do this, and when I was setting it up,
a lot of women advise me to not just ask
for the cost of the surgery, but also what it's
going to cost you to survive and take that time
(34:27):
off of work. You know, keep in mind you will
have no income because most companies, I was self employed,
so there's no sick time, right. You need to be
able to buy groceries and pay your rent, et cetera.
And at first I was embarrassed. And we know, even
you know, in the community I'm in, people still bring
it up and say you were raising money for boobs,
and it creates a conversation starter. But I also had
(34:50):
a friend who reminded me that when we get married, right,
we have a registry and we asked for presents and
we celebrate that, and when we have babies, the same thing.
So let's push this cons apt of my friend is
sick and we want to get her better, and let's
have you know, survive and thrive campaigns and parties. And
you know, don't be embarrassed because like you said, you know,
(35:10):
we're trying to save our life here, right, Like it's
would be something we feel confident in asking for help around.
And there's never a bad time for a party, right.
So assuming that you were successful, you will not have
to go into debt. And many people would like to
support you who can. I mean people do want to help.
I mean if you give them the opportunity and you
(35:31):
reach out and you let them know you help, they
will help if they can, if they were able. But
make no mistake, I mean, raising that kind of money
from individual donors is certainly a full time job. I mean,
crowdfunding is seven days a week for the duration of
the campaign, and it's just really very stressful and the
end of success is not necessarily guaranteed. So just keep
(35:55):
that in mind. No exactly when you go on these pages,
you see how many people do need help and how
this is becoming the norm. And for me, it was
hard because that required me to go on to all
my platforms and talk about what was happening to me
and ask for help. And I was still carrying a
lot of guilt and shame back when I did that.
(36:15):
And for me, I really, you know, out of my pride,
started to feel most comfortable trying to find ways to
creatively make the money. And I started to get inspired
when I saw many women using their talent to make
really fun products. I saw everything from you know, t shirts,
two candles being made to you know, all sorts of
really neat b I I Awareness products, and that's how
(36:37):
I started making the T shirts and you know, out
of a joke with our friends, we created this whole
sick Titties lifestyle brand, right because people kept asking what
was happening, and me, being a little New York re crew,
it was like my sick titties and you know, this
brand was born and it really started is an intention
because I was too proud to ask for help, and
(36:57):
from coffee cups to you know, teach it's that's how
I felt most comfortable generating income and it's something now
that we're looking to grow. And I guess, as they say,
poverty breeds invention, right, So true, so true? You know, um,
you're right. I mean, we did originally build a website
and the store to help you fundraise for treatment. And
(37:18):
I know you've been spending a lot of time talking
to women who have been having a very hard time
finding loans or room on the credit cards to pay
for this, and that's all just I mean, that's heartbreaking
funny how they fall all over themselves willing to extend
credit when you're trying to fund your implants, but when
it comes to offering you the same consideration for ex
(37:39):
planting crickets. Um, you mentioned that you have a background
in finance. Can we share a little bit with the
listeners about what you are trying to build? Absolutely? And
I think that they were talking about right, our lenders,
people with money, people who want to help fix things.
And I think before we get those people to up
(38:00):
up and say they want to help, there's some key
takeaways that you know got us here right. Things that
you and I've learned have really been the issues in
the industry as a whole. And I think most important
is that women need help, and in order to get
that help, we now have to destigmatize this issue. And
to do that we need to educate people and raise awareness.
You know, I truly feel like people will step up
(38:23):
and provide the resources we're asking for once they understand that,
first and foremost, b I I is not an elective disease.
I think, you know, so many of us were stigmatized
that we chose the implants. We chose this disease, And
through all of the new legislation and women sharing their stories,
what's becoming really apparent is that we were not given
(38:44):
full disclosure. And Christian really seriously who goes into something
and says, hey, I want to get sick. That doesn't
make sense, or give up everything I have to have boobs, Like,
let's be real. I think you're absolutely right. And now
we're rising up and realizing that not only is this
not our fault, but the medical debt that we all carry.
(39:04):
It's not a personal failure, like we didn't do something wrong.
And b I patients need coverage and care, we need
to be able to be treated. And I think most
importantly is that this is an injustice. You know. The
narrative that we've learned through meeting all these incredible experts, doctors, survivors, drivers,
people have been doing this for what forty years, is
(39:25):
that there was not full disclosure. The black box quote
warning was not given to us, and therefore we didn't
have informed consent. And I think based on that, once
we educate people that this problem exists, the response I've
been getting when I've been asking for support and building
this community is incredible. People want to contribute to the
solution because now they buy into the fact that this
(39:48):
is a problem and a lot of people did not
know about this before we started doing this. Chris right,
like I think we've had to educate people that b
I I is real. It's something we did not choose,
and there's a solution and for this injustice and thank
god we thought during the podcast, right Yeah, I mean
that's so true. I Mean, here's the thing that I
think we really need to highlight in this episode. Um,
(40:12):
because millions of Americans are struggling with high medical bills.
It's not just women with b I I I mean,
it's America. Americans have an enormous amount of medical depth
and it's a growing problem in the US. So, but
in this instance, women deserve an affordable way to fund
(40:32):
their treatment. Bankruptcy or death are not reasonable choices from fame.
I mean, the Kaiser Family Foundation has found that people
may forego the care that they need, including doctor's appointments
and tests and treatments and prescription medications, as they struggle
to pay their other bills. Um, they deplete their long
(40:55):
term savings, they damage your credit, they even declare bankruptcy,
and all these problems they can take years to overcome.
You're absolutely right, Christine, and I think that the financial
solution to this is out there. You know, I was
blessed to have a mentor who was incredible, and he
(41:15):
taught me his quote, which was, the solutions to life's
most pressing problems are out there. But what we need
our people, and those people have to be willing to
organize the TLC as we call it, into a sustainable
organization able to willing to support the community people who
are dedicated to this. What is TLC crist and total
listeners And it's another fancy finance acronym, but you know,
(41:40):
for us, it means technology, leadership in capital. And after
meeting all of these experts and survivors and thrivers and
advocates for someone like me, it became clear that we
could find the technology, we could find the leadership, and
we could find the capital that this community needs in
design a solution to support them. And I really look
(42:01):
forward to working with the community to expand our current
website Sectities into something that's more corporate ready um but
offers them a care as any health company. That will
really be the change we need to see and offer
women the solution and a safe place so they can
survive and thrive. Well, I think this is exciting. I mean,
(42:22):
I think it's clear that they need a safe place
to connect to meet accredited experts, to get real facts
and to access resources key to healing exactly. And we're
updating the website now with the vision and what we
plan to do to expand the site in the community.
And I think it's really important to do this with
(42:43):
the people that have gone through it. You know. I
have a good friend that you know who always says,
don't ever take directions from someone who hasn't been there.
And I'm really hopeful with all of the incredible survivors
and advocates and experts we've met, we can create a
way in a program will allow us to save women
valuable time and money and emotional suffering is they get diagnosed,
(43:06):
treated and healed. You know. I know, as we've learned,
it's time is everything, and I don't want people to
lose valuable healing time. And I think what we really
come to understand, and I through my recovery right now,
is that it takes more than a surgeon, but a
village of people just helping us heal from the inside out.
For me, it was the other survivors that truly lifted
(43:26):
me up at times when I felt really downt well.
We can build all that on the premise that together
we are not alone. Close to the Chest with Kristen
and Christine has been brought to you by B Noble
Media Group and I Heart Radio. A very special thanks
to our guest Kara dunham Lee. You can find Kara
(43:49):
on Instagram at Kara dunham Lee. That's k A r
A du and h A M l e E Kara
dunham Lee. Now I'd like to share some gratitude, A
very special thanks to I Heart Radio, to our Parker
and her I Heart Radio marketing team, and a big
big thanks to our executive producer Ramsay Yunt. If you
(44:13):
or someone you know would like to know more about
Preston plant illness, please visit sick Titties dot com. That's
s I c K t I T t I e
s dot com. Also, please follow us on Instagram at
sick dot Titties and at b Noble Art that's B
n O B L e A r T. And we
(44:35):
would also love to have you join our Facebook page
at B Noble on B I I and please remember
you're not alone. Together we can beat this. The views
and opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast author
or individuals participating in the podcast and do not represent
the opinions of my Heart Media or its employees. This
(44:56):
podcast should not be used as medical advice, mental health advice,
mental health counseling or therapy, or as imparting any health
care recommendations at all. Individuals are advised to seek independent
medical counseling, advice, and or therapy from a competent health
care professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issues,
health inquiry, or matter, including matters discussed on this podcast.
(45:21):
Close to the Chest with Kristen and Christine is a
production of I Heart Radio and produced in our studios
located in Atlanta, Georgia. For more podcasts from my heart Radio,
visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Close to the Chest with Kristin and Christine is brought
to you by I Heart Radio. My name is Kristin
Nobles In. Today is November twenty. This week's episode is
about finance and breast in plant illness. Ironically, my background
is in finance, and I look at the investment I
made and breast implants over twenty years ago. I was
so young, and for a long time I was really
(00:21):
mad at myself because I can't afford these implants. What
it's cost me to maintain my body, to try and
save my life. I have struggled at times. I've almost
gone homeless. I have been helpless. I have leaned on
friends and family members, all while working at times six
figure jobs. But this has been so expensive. I have
suffered so much. And when I took a step back
(00:43):
and realized what was happening and put my finance hat on,
I started to realize that this wasn't something I asked for,
This wasn't a good investment, it wasn't fair. No one
gave me the full disclosures to all the risks. No
one told me that I could lose almost everything and
that it would cost millions of dollars to maintain these
and I would maybe die. I didn't get the return,
(01:04):
and I don't even know what I invested in looking
better my idea of success. At the time, I was
twenty something years old. So in order to heal, one
of the most important things I've had to do is
recover financially. I've had to come up with a plan
in order to be able to get the treatment I
deserve to get insurance, to take a step back and
figure out what happened and how do I move forward.
But what I want every woman know that's listening right
(01:26):
now is we have nothing to be ashamed of. For
a long time, I was embarrassed that pressed implants cost
me everything, But now, like you, I want to scream
it from the rooftop so it doesn't happen to other people.
Money and this issue is tough. It is almost impossible
to afford these implants, and what it cost me is everything.
But what's gotten me through this is knowing that all
(01:48):
of us are struggling, that this isn't something I should
be ashamed of. I didn't ask for this, and I'm
not going to give up, and just know that together
we are not alone to be the sin and then
question dout spot walk into the room, heads turning on
down side, Christine, this week's episode is a very taboo
(02:18):
and complex topic, almost as much as talking about our boobs.
It's actually money, you know, one of the most grueling
issues that affects all of us. You know, the challenges
we face as patients. Funding the exorbitant costs associated with
breast implant illness is exorbitant, as I said, and I'm
truly amazed at what it costs to treat the disease.
(02:41):
And I'm in awe of how survivors do it and
inspired how they creatively financed the diagnostic, the treatment, and
the recovery process. But I'm also really sad at what
we've had to sacrifice financially to try and heal. This
is not easy for most of us to talk about,
as the financial impact is a very hard thing to
even quantify. And the conversation is not just about money,
(03:04):
you know, I think it's about the injustice. For me,
the financial cost of this has become unbearable and it's
the toughest part to ever talk about. I don't know
how I've made it this far, and I still have
so far to go. Well, christ and I know it
is uncomfortable, but let's use your experience as an example
to help our listeners understand the true cost of the
(03:25):
disease as well as the obstacles you face trying to survive.
Many people break down the costs in terms of the
doctor's fees, diagnostic procedures, and the amount to do the explant,
but it really is so much more than that. It's
so much more and hard to even quantify, given you
have the sunk cost of what you put into the
(03:48):
and plans to get them in the first place, and
then after the explant, you have the long term costs
given the damage that's been done to your body, then
adding all the opportunity cost of time off of work,
and for me, it is unrealized potential because I couldn't work,
and it's really hard to come up with a number.
It seems like there's no limit for me. The cost
is still infamite and is ongoing, and it's honestly the
(04:10):
most stressful and shameful part of my journey, and it's
impossible at times, it's embarrassing. I mean, I have a
background in finance and this has cost me everything, and
I still struggle it's hard to put a number to
it given the freakonomics of all of it. Well, what
has this cost you so far? I mean, can you
give me a number? Maybe hundreds thousands. It's like an
(04:33):
essay t question. Kristen got breast, But did they cost
because it's millions? Right? If you put you put this
together like a word problem. You know, assume that this
cost me half my life, and most of that was
my adult life, right, And the worst part was when
I didn't have money that delayed my treatment. And the
longer it delays your treatment, the longer it takes to
(04:54):
get healed, and the more damage it's done to your body.
So not having money actually cost you more on the run.
So just think about like my situation. I've been sick
for over twenty years. You've read my chart. I have
how many diseases? And on average to manage all of
that it cost me a quarter of a million dollars
a year. Really, I think I do. And now multiply
(05:19):
that where again by twenty years, two fifty thousand times
twenty and it's in the millions. I had no idea
it was worth that, or anyone who even has that
to spend on themselves. I literally just got a statement
from my insurance company bragging that they saved me, not spent,
but saved me dollars so far this year. So I'm
(05:39):
ninety days only into my fiscal year, just ninety days,
and they've saved me ten times of what it would
cost to do the surgery. So there's got to be
a better way to do this given everything we know,
and it seems to be in their interest to fix
this faster, right, it costs them more money the longer
we're sick. Christen, that is insane. That is so insane.
(06:02):
Can we break that down? I mean, the first major
issue the fact that b I I takes so long
to diagnose, and then once it is the explant surgery
is not always covered by insurance. The average explant costs well.
According to Plastic surgery dot org, they say the average
(06:22):
cost for breast implant removal surgery is three thousand dollars.
According to the American Society of Plastic Surgeons, they estimate
the average breast implant removal surgery costs two thousand sixty one.
Those are both very oddly specific. They both agree that
(06:45):
those quotes are only part of the total price. What
they haven't included is the surgeons feed, the hospital or
surgical facility costs, or the anesthesia fees, the prescription for
medication fees, the post surgery garment fees, the medical test fees,
the X ray fees, the complication fees, the sounds like
(07:08):
with all these extra features, fees upon fees upon fees.
So let's say conservatively, and I think this is your quote, Kristen,
fifteen thousand dollars for the surgery, but it can be
much higher. I mean, it doesn't include the diagnostic process,
because as we've learned, this is a diagnosis of exclusion.
(07:32):
It doesn't include any cost if there are complications or
if you want a reconstruction. I mean, when you got
your implants, did anyone tell you might need to have
them removed or that it might cost you an arm
and a leg to do it now? And it got
more than that. They take my arm, my leg, my hips,
(07:53):
my gallbladder and my append nicks, and I mean alas
goes on and on right, and honestly, Chris, oh, they didn't.
And then imagine you find this out, you're getting sicker,
and you're trying to finance all this while being so sick.
It for me became a losing proposition because most people
think when you're sick, you should rest and do self care.
(08:14):
But for me, I had to get this money to
be better, so I had to work harder to afford
the care. And as sick as people are, it's hard
to get work, you know, plus think keep them in
a lot of the women I know that god implants
were in the entertainment industry where their appearance is part
of their job. So a lot of them were afraid
that if they removed their implants, they wouldn't even be
(08:36):
able to get work. Can you imagine, you know? I
was very ashamed to when people had asked me, well,
why don't you just get them out, and I'd have
to tell them that I didn't have fifteen thousand dollars
to pay for another surgery. I mean, I was embarrassed.
I didn't have the money and I thought I couldn't
afford to take care of myself like It came with
such shame. And I think now we're starting to get
(08:59):
to the place where hopefully they will with this new
black box Morning fixed this issue and women will know
the risk and the financial things that can happen. But
think about the millions of women like me who got
the implants, were sick for years and did not know
this could happen to them. It seems like you're on
a hamster wheel. I mean, Kristen, I don't think you
(09:21):
should be ashamed. One of the most common things clogging
the bankruptcy cords today is the amount of soul crushing
medical debt Americans have. I mean, we are drowning in
medical bills, and now with COVID, I mean, it's going
(09:42):
to get even worse. On average. I think we've heard
that diagnostic, treatment and recovery process range can cost upwards
of dollars to hundreds of thousands of dollars, and then
don't forget to add in the original surgery costs. I
(10:02):
think that's key because one of the things I think
that it is so important about this disease is to
recognize that it is a disease and it's not something
we elected to have. It wasn't part of the package.
And for many of us, there's frustration because the illness
is currently not recognized as a disability, so we you know,
(10:23):
can't get help if we can't work, and the treatment
protocol is still being researched and flushed out, so there's
no clear path to recovery. And for instance, in my case,
this has been affecting me for over twenty years, and
back then we had this thing called a pre existing condition.
So for example, with my gastro parisis, if I wanted
(10:43):
to change my insurance plan, my feeding tubes, my hospitalizations,
none of that was covered. So I'm thankful now at
least like all of these conditions and issues we have
are covered. We can get treatment with insurance for these
emergency issues. But the insurance companies you know, still don't
recognize B I I and so that makes it difficult
(11:06):
to even go to insurance companies to get it treated.
So most of this is out of pocket. Still, what
was it like when insurance companies could deny paying for
necessary treatments and procedures because they were considered pre existing.
I was petrified. Well, hasn't really changed. I mean, insurance
companies still run the show and determining what they want
(11:28):
to pay. And because you said, it's still not an
easy option. But for an insurance company to cover an explant,
women have to have had a rupture or toxicity or
be covered because of breast cancer. I mean even in
that scenario, there are not many plastic surgeons who take
insurance exactly. So imagine your frustration. You've spent all this
(11:53):
time and money getting diagnosed, you finally get insurance coverage.
For me, it was like the highlight of my life.
And then I couldn't find a surgeon in network. And
this is a huge issue women are facing. They can't
find doctors to help them and they have insurance. Well,
research shows that most plastic surgeons are not in network.
(12:15):
Is this because the insurance companies negotiate lower fees or
the cost of managing the claims process and getting paid
most likely both, And that a lot of plastic surgery
is seen as an elected procedure and they're done in
these beautiful for profit private surgery centers. Some even have
their own consumer financing, and as we know, that can
(12:39):
be really expensive with super high interest rate. And many
women are already paying years for the implants they have
in now now compound another procedure and more cost, and
it's going to take them forever to pay it back.
So I can tell you, even with insurance, to paying
for this, it's been crushing because I have keep in
mind premiums, I've got to pay co pays, deductibles, and
(13:02):
if I want reconstruction, that's not covered. Yeah, you have
to make a lot of money to afford this. I mean,
nothing drains your bank account faster than medical debt. Just
doing the simple math, it sounds like you need to
win the lottery, which is, in my opinion, never a
sound financial plan. But you know, I'm not a financial planner,
(13:24):
But I mean it's nice if you have that kind
of luck. Well, seriously, I don't know if I can
dust off my four leaf over to pay for this.
But seriously, you know, no one told me this upfront.
And if I think about just the hundreds of thousands
of dollars I've invested, no one hinted at what this
could cost me. No one told me that I would
be sick or on the verge of bankruptcy, that my
(13:45):
credit could be destroyed, I would possibly go homeless, and
the amount of medical debt I would have would outweigh
potentially my earning potential. Think about that. So you know,
I put my finance hat on with this, and I
pair these implants to like the liar's loans that collapse
the mortgage industry. It was very clear when those people
(14:06):
got those loans, they proved that they could not afford
to make the payments, and the mortgage companies didn't qualify
them as buyers. So they ultimately CRISP were held responsible,
and I truly hope we get to a place where
the manufacturers are held responsible for what this cost us. Well. Currently,
Breston plant illness is not categorized as a disease, therefore
(14:31):
it does not have an insurance code. Therefore it doesn't
have a means to be treated by insurance. So some
doctors are working around this and justifying the removal of
the implant for causes like rupture exactly. I was fortunate
enough that my doctor found a way to get me covered,
(14:52):
but it's not easy. And until this disease is recognized
with something called an ice E D code, so it's
got its own name and its own treatment protocol, women
are going to struggle. And when that day comes it
will be game changing. But well, until that happens, I mean, Christen,
what can women do? Well, let's ask one. Our next
(15:15):
guest is someone who I consider a good friend. Her
name is Kara, Dunham Lee, and she's a holistic health
coach and currently surviving b I I and she and
I talked a lot about this issue we both struggled in.
She speaks quite eloquently about overcoming shame and living a
fear based life as you go through this process, and
(15:37):
tips on how to survive and thrive. Fine, thank you
so much for joining Christine and I are close to
the chest and being willing to talk about what we
go through is b II patients trying to finance our disease.
(15:58):
And I'm super excited to talk to because you sent
me a message that was just so open and honest
about what you're experiencing as a BII patient. Do you
mind sharing with the listeners a bit about where you're
at right now in your BI journey. Yes, Actually, thank
you so much for having me. I'm so excited because
I know, even since we've connected, it is amazing how
(16:18):
people really still just don't know about what this is.
One of the things that I was excited about because
after we talked and we were talking about finances, I
was actually set to explant next Friday, and literally my
financial backing fell through today and I'm just like I'm
so sad because it's just it's heartbreaking because one of
(16:39):
the biggest problems that I've experienced is just this severe
decline in health in a matter of months, you know.
And so it was crazy because it was ten years coming.
But then this last couple of years has just hit
so hard that you know, there's job loss involved. For me.
There's just thousands of dollars in medical visits that everybody
(17:04):
keeps saying, Oh, there's nothing wrong with you, there's nothing
wrong with you, and it's like, I can't walk you guys,
something's wrong. Um, And then I'm not sure to you, like,
especially with your experience, but mine and a couple other ladies,
like you know, they came back one time for me
and they're like, oh, you might have multiple scrosses. Well
that's really terrifying, and you might have lupus, and you
(17:25):
might have this, and you might have that. And so
then you just wait and wait, and you're you're excited
that you don't have that diagnosis and yet you still
don't have any being able to finance your disease being
treated in that hope and the creativity you have to
use to get there. When you say that what was
your current option to finance and do you mind sharing
with the listeners what procedure you're trying to have. Sure, So,
(17:47):
first of all, I'm having just an explant. The doctor
I saw wait six months to do a lift. So
if that's something you want, you go back later. And
so for me, we have you know, we've gotten really creative.
It's you know, I had an average in Florida, like
the top nine doctors or over ten thousand dollars for
X plan. I was fortunate that this this man is
(18:08):
six thousand dollars. But that's a lot of money, right.
Are you financing this yourself out of pocket? Yes, we are.
We're cash flowing it mostly because we've started on a
debt free journey last year and we've actually paid off
over forty four thousand dollars. Um. Yeah, it's been amazing. Um,
it's been insane and sometimes it wasn't easier fun, but
(18:30):
it was one of those things where I thought I
had time, so the surgery wasn't my top priority. It
was trying to get out of debt. But then when
my symptoms increased, you know, now we're out of money,
and um, we have two thousand dollars right, So today
the other four thousand was going to come from Alan
finally that we had been able to um I was
going to take it ended up being um, you know,
(18:53):
three months of my paycheck early and then it couldn't happen.
And so that's just like it just it's crushing. Actually,
well to stop your karra so that and do you
have health insurance as well, because you do not know.
That's the other issue, which brings up something that I'm
a little worried about because as we all kind of
(19:13):
are starting to hear, like what if say you come
back with a cancer diagnosis, Well, then then what do
you do? Like what do I do then? Because if
I don't have health insurance, I can't fund cancer treatment.
And I mean there's no way. It's all kind of
I don't know, you know, that's the next stuff. I
don't even know what that looks like. In I talked
with a girl this morning over coffee who just found
(19:34):
out and that's what she thinks is wrong with her.
She also doesn't have health insurance. So what happens after
the surgery is something none of us ever thought about either.
You know, in the States, a lot of people perceive
that you can go to your insurance if you have
it and they will just take these out. And even
if you have health insurance, it's not guaranteed that you're covered.
You know, insurance does step in when you have cancer.
(19:55):
There are reactive programs out there that will help you.
But I think, as you've gone out and you've done
in a using amount of research, how many doctors did
you talk to to find this quote of six thousand dollars?
I've personally talked to probably you know, ten different offices,
but then stalked hundreds online, right, And I have talked
(20:15):
to so many women in the rest and Plant Illness group.
Then there's a Florida Rest and Plant Illness group that
I found and I probably individually spoke with about fifty
of them. And you just that's the other part of this.
You you end up getting to where you're so overwhelmed
to even make a choice, right because it is it's cost.
It's like, do I go with the most expensive person?
(20:36):
Does that mean they're better? Do I go with this
guy who can get me in a two weeks versus
the guy that I'm supposed to wait two years? Like?
Is he better? Like it is he better because he
did the Bachelorette? You know, like, I don't know, it's
just crazy. So for me, and I don't know where
you sit in this, but my self esteem took a
hit because I couldn't afford to save my life. Oh yeah,
it makes you not sleep at night and you feel
(20:58):
that's what. Oh my, this is just crazy that you
said that, because like yesterday, like I just sat in
the parking lot afterwards and I was just like, you know,
eleven years ago, I I thought it was safe, you know,
and I thought that it was gonna be okay, and
I felt so naive because I felt like it's all
my fault. And I mean, I know, obviously things have
(21:19):
happened in eleven years too that are different, but I
just like I feel guilty that I mean, I'm I'm
also angry that I'm in this position. I'm angry that
now I'm putting my family in buying to pay rent
because I need to have surgery because I don't want
to die. It's so frustrating and it's scary, and it's
just like, wow, that's great. I just you know, all
(21:41):
the stuff, and yeah, so what you said is just
you feel I feel like a horrible person also on
top of it, just because I want to get well.
And I will say this, you are not only not
alone in those feelings, but the validation that you weren't
giving full of disclosure is very It's honest. The fact
that you're piste off is honest. Kara Um. You know,
(22:03):
I do some journaling for the show, and people don't
see us on the floor crying. They don't hear us
negotiate in our head if life insurance is a better
investment than surgery, yeah, because you don't. You don't want
to be a dream And I think what we have
to really do as a paradigm shift in this situation,
and what I hope is the gift of our friendship.
Does that number when we didn't do this to ourselves,
(22:25):
you didn't choose this, and if it was six thousand dollars,
six hundred thousand dollars, the reason we connected is you
really wanted to share your story, because the average woman
doesn't have a hundred thousand dollars sitting in the bank
to take time off work, go get the surgery. You
find the best doctor, network to the best person, and
I think for you going forward, you know what I
hear you saying through your own self talk and experiences
(22:47):
that this has cost you a lot, right, Like it's
more than money. What would you estimate this has cost
you in the past eleven years in total time and
money time like so much because you know, you sit
up at night worrying about what's wrong with you, so
money uneasy at this point over the whole eleven years,
(23:08):
like maybe a hundred thousand or more. And then that's
just to this point. You know, who's who knows what's
to come, because I know. The other thing I've been
looking into is, you know, how do I detox afterward?
How do I get well after? And so if you
go to a natural path, you know, and they don't
take insurance either, and we are the ones I've talked to, don't.
(23:30):
I don't even think it's a thing in the insurance
world yet. Hopefully it will be someday. Um, but you know,
I was figuring up the one I was specifically talking to.
It would be about six thousand dollars to treat for
a year. That's out of pocket. So again it's like, okay,
that's great. And then integrative medicine doctors are also amazing,
(23:50):
but highly unlikely insurance covers it. If you have insurance,
so then you're still out of pocket. So so explanting
itself does do a lot to at least make your
body quit fighting what's inside you, but in order to
get well, you still need money afterwards. And that was
one of the things that hit me really hard. I
was like, wow, like you you don't everything about that.
(24:12):
I mean I didn't anyway, And and it's another you
know process. I mean, who knows what's going to happen
in the next five years. I mean, for me, I'm
really positive and I hope everything's gonna be great, but
I still know that there's a base amount of money
I'm going to need to also spend to get well.
A lot of women are out there doing go fund
mes or kickstarters. Is that something you've thought about doing,
is a creative way to raise money or has it
(24:34):
been something that's you know, held back, because obviously I
know you're probably very proud. Yeah, And it's just it's
interesting that you asked because one of my friends who
actually gets a girl who was looking at implanting and
is like, studied it for five years, Thank goodness. She
she didn't. She was one who kind of turned me
back onto v I I because I'd heard about it,
(24:54):
you know, like six years ago, and I just never registered.
So anyway, she asked me just the other day, She's like,
have you thought about doing a go fund Me? And
I just, you know, it's crazy because I don't know
why I would give people in a go fund me money,
But I just it doesn't feel bad, and I don't
think it should, but it does, and I just so
(25:16):
Yet no, I am so against it, and yet I
don't know. There's your friend. I can say that both Christine,
myself and all of the women in the community are
here for you. And you know you are a fighter.
We're going to get the right solution for you. But
if you had, you know, one thing you wanted to
share with the women out there, as someone trying to
(25:37):
finance their explant, how do you keep going Kara? Oh,
that's crazy. Um, you know, I've always just spent. I mean,
it's kind of like this this weird thing that it
came from just losing so many people from a really
young age. But I just like I love life, like
(25:58):
and I've always said a millions times in different scenarios
like as long as there is life, there's hope, right
the only for sure thing like that is in this
world as far as like if you're dead, and even
then who knows. But I just like, I keep going
because I want I love life, like even as bad
as some stuff sucks, like it doesn't matter, like I
(26:20):
just I don't know. And the older I get, and
even when things get crazy like this, like there's just
the fact that we there, we're talking today and we're awake,
Like that's why I keep going because I don't know.
I always used to laugh when I as a kid,
my mom would tease me because I'm like, I'm just curious,
Like I don't I just want to see what happens.
I just want to see what happens tomorrow. And here's
(26:42):
the thing I'd like to wrap this up and share
where their listeners. You know, you're not having house insurance.
It's not something that's uncommon in the US. It's very
expensive and it also doesn't guarantee treatment. And so I
think as we move forward, we're going to really help
the listeners. This is an ongoing problem. It's not going
to be solved overnight, but with a community of brave
(27:02):
asked women like yourself that are willing to face the shame,
be vulnerable and not play into that narrative. We will
get the attention, we will get the regulation, and we
will create something that our daughters, our nieces, our sisters
do not have to deal with going forward in life.
And your bravery is worth its weight in gold. Thank you. Yes,
(27:23):
it's just there will be there will be progress. Oh,
I love it. Wow, Kristen, Why is it so hard
to reach out and ask for help? How did that
(27:44):
make you feel? Well? Chris, honestly sad and motivated. You know,
one of the common things we hear with women is
the guilt they feel. I think in order to overcome this,
we need to really destigmatize the disease and remind everybody,
from the victims to the insurance companies that we did
not elect for this. But there's also a financial case
to be made to treat this disease with the urgency
(28:06):
it deserves. As they say, time is money, and the
longer it takes us to be treated, the more it
cost us in terms of health and money. I think
with the right support, there is a financial case to
be made that delayed treatment costs everyone too much. The
insurance companies are starting to recognize this and ultimately understanding
that treatment saves lives and money in the long run. Well,
(28:29):
announce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. It
sounds like there is a lot to be gained by
the insurance companies helping women get treated sooner so they
don't have long term expenses because of permanent damage to
your body. So how about we talk about financing. From
where I'm sitting, I see five options for financing. One insurance,
(28:52):
then out of pocket, which is your savings, Uh, start
a go funding campaign or other kind of crowdfunding. You
can take out loans, or you could put it all
on your credit card. Right, that's crazy when you say
that that was not in the disclosure when I got
these And these are all the options we have right now.
Plus there's this thing called the swap out if the
(29:15):
implants you have are we called But keep in mind
this requires you to get new implants and that is
not recommended for b II patients. I did this, but
without the money. It required me to waive all my
future claims as well and my gut during the process
of that time periods at hell now, and the manufacturer
will not pay the full cost of the removal either.
(29:37):
So really, given those options, most women are seeing a
long delay in their care as they try and pull
together the funds to be able to afford treatment. Well
on that swap out as not your attorney not giving
legal advice. Thank God for your gut. This does not
seem like justice. I mean, according to the manufacturer, if
(29:59):
you don't have any symptoms, you don't need to do anything.
Even if you have the breast implants that are recalled
inside you, you can take the weight and see approach
with respect to seeing if maybe you will maybe won't
develop B I, A A, L C L. But what
if that makes you anxious? Absolutely? Oh they may or
(30:25):
may not cause cancer. Let's see what happens. So there
are two possible options for reducing that risk. First, you
can swap out the recalled implants for others that haven't
been recalled. Now, remember this recall also is voluntary recall.
It's not a mandatory recall, so you can kind of
(30:46):
swap out the ones that have been advised to be
recalled for ones that haven't yet been recalled or may
never be recalled. Who knows. Um at no cost um.
The manufacturer's very generous offer of giving you the implants
won't cost you anything, but don't forget you still have
to pay for the surgeon and the facility, and don't
forget all those fees upon fees upon fees. The simple exchange,
(31:10):
according to the manufacturer, will reduce your B I, A, A, L,
C L risk, But no one can identify by exactly
how much might be little, might be a lot, who knows,
or you can just remove the capsule and the implant
and they don't pay for that. So that's that's so frustrating.
(31:32):
I mean, so first, I think the key lesson we learned,
and you know, obviously I'm proof of this, is that
if you can get insurance, because you're going to need
it for not only the explant, but the diagnostic process,
any complications you have in your long term recovery. Many
people like me have diseases now that we're going to
(31:52):
have to manage forever, and insurance is how I finally
was able to get mine removed. And it also covered
my camp locations, of which there were many exactly, and
you know, we noted for some people this is cost
prohibitive because you have a large family, it's very expensive.
And I encourage listeners to look now into insurance again
(32:13):
because there are subsidies. And once you get a list
of companies that maybe you can get subsidized or you
think are a fit through someone, ask each of those
companies for a list of surgeons that they have within
their network and call around and see which ones actually
do explants. And a lot of people chose their insurance
company based on who their surgeon used, right and once
(32:35):
they have that, there's also the option if you do
have insurance right now and they say they don't have
somebody in network, ask if they have coverage for any
doctors out of network. Some companies will pay a percentage
of the claim and you can submit that once you've
done the surgery and hopefully recoup at least a portion
or all of what you spent. So those are two
(32:56):
options with insurance. Well that's creating from sation because as
we've learned that if you're paying out of pocket, cash
is king, and don't forget that you can always negotiate. Um.
You can negotiate with the surgeon, you can negotiate with
the hospital. Call them see if you can negotiate your
bill down and then call them again and negotiate further
(33:19):
UM and the same goes during your recovery. I mean,
God forbid, you have complications and need to be hospitalized
for further treatment, you can always negotiate and if need
be asked for a payment arrangement or some kind of
financial assistance. I mean, the important thing is that it's
better to have this kind of communication with the hospital
(33:43):
and um, the billing department. It's better to confront your
options rather than to just sweep them under the rug
and pretend they're not there, because you can always negotiate
and figure out a way through so that you can
get the health care that you need exactly. And most
places have a social worker that will talk to you
and help you find out what options are available, and
(34:05):
they know the programs, and it's been super helpful for
me throughout this twenty year journey. I've used that several times.
And another thing I tried Chris early on was a
go fund me campaign. It was really important for me
to do this, and when I was setting it up,
a lot of women advise me to not just ask
for the cost of the surgery, but also what it's
going to cost you to survive and take that time
(34:27):
off of work. You know, keep in mind you will
have no income because most companies, I was self employed,
so there's no sick time, right. You need to be
able to buy groceries and pay your rent, et cetera.
And at first I was embarrassed. And we know, even
you know, in the community I'm in, people still bring
it up and say you were raising money for boobs,
and it creates a conversation starter. But I also had
(34:50):
a friend who reminded me that when we get married, right,
we have a registry and we asked for presents and
we celebrate that, and when we have babies, the same thing.
So let's push this cons apt of my friend is
sick and we want to get her better, and let's
have you know, survive and thrive campaigns and parties. And
you know, don't be embarrassed because like you said, you know,
(35:10):
we're trying to save our life here, right, Like it's
would be something we feel confident in asking for help around.
And there's never a bad time for a party, right.
So assuming that you were successful, you will not have
to go into debt. And many people would like to
support you who can. I mean people do want to help.
I mean if you give them the opportunity and you
(35:31):
reach out and you let them know you help, they
will help if they can, if they were able. But
make no mistake, I mean, raising that kind of money
from individual donors is certainly a full time job. I mean,
crowdfunding is seven days a week for the duration of
the campaign, and it's just really very stressful and the
end of success is not necessarily guaranteed. So just keep
(35:55):
that in mind. No exactly when you go on these pages,
you see how many people do need help and how
this is becoming the norm. And for me, it was
hard because that required me to go on to all
my platforms and talk about what was happening to me
and ask for help. And I was still carrying a
lot of guilt and shame back when I did that.
(36:15):
And for me, I really, you know, out of my pride,
started to feel most comfortable trying to find ways to
creatively make the money. And I started to get inspired
when I saw many women using their talent to make
really fun products. I saw everything from you know, t shirts,
two candles being made to you know, all sorts of
really neat b I I Awareness products, and that's how
(36:37):
I started making the T shirts and you know, out
of a joke with our friends, we created this whole
sick Titties lifestyle brand, right because people kept asking what
was happening, and me, being a little New York re crew,
it was like my sick titties and you know, this
brand was born and it really started is an intention
because I was too proud to ask for help, and
(36:57):
from coffee cups to you know, teach it's that's how
I felt most comfortable generating income and it's something now
that we're looking to grow. And I guess, as they say,
poverty breeds invention, right, So true, so true? You know, um,
you're right. I mean, we did originally build a website
and the store to help you fundraise for treatment. And
(37:18):
I know you've been spending a lot of time talking
to women who have been having a very hard time
finding loans or room on the credit cards to pay
for this, and that's all just I mean, that's heartbreaking
funny how they fall all over themselves willing to extend
credit when you're trying to fund your implants, but when
it comes to offering you the same consideration for ex
(37:39):
planting crickets. Um, you mentioned that you have a background
in finance. Can we share a little bit with the
listeners about what you are trying to build? Absolutely? And
I think that they were talking about right, our lenders,
people with money, people who want to help fix things.
And I think before we get those people to up
(38:00):
up and say they want to help, there's some key
takeaways that you know got us here right. Things that
you and I've learned have really been the issues in
the industry as a whole. And I think most important
is that women need help, and in order to get
that help, we now have to destigmatize this issue. And
to do that we need to educate people and raise awareness.
You know, I truly feel like people will step up
(38:23):
and provide the resources we're asking for once they understand that,
first and foremost, b I I is not an elective disease.
I think, you know, so many of us were stigmatized
that we chose the implants. We chose this disease, And
through all of the new legislation and women sharing their stories,
what's becoming really apparent is that we were not given
(38:44):
full disclosure. And Christian really seriously who goes into something
and says, hey, I want to get sick. That doesn't
make sense, or give up everything I have to have boobs, Like,
let's be real. I think you're absolutely right. And now
we're rising up and realizing that not only is this
not our fault, but the medical debt that we all carry.
(39:04):
It's not a personal failure, like we didn't do something wrong.
And b I patients need coverage and care, we need
to be able to be treated. And I think most
importantly is that this is an injustice. You know. The
narrative that we've learned through meeting all these incredible experts, doctors, survivors, drivers,
people have been doing this for what forty years, is
(39:25):
that there was not full disclosure. The black box quote
warning was not given to us, and therefore we didn't
have informed consent. And I think based on that, once
we educate people that this problem exists, the response I've
been getting when I've been asking for support and building
this community is incredible. People want to contribute to the
solution because now they buy into the fact that this
(39:48):
is a problem and a lot of people did not
know about this before we started doing this. Chris right,
like I think we've had to educate people that b
I I is real. It's something we did not choose,
and there's a solution and for this injustice and thank
god we thought during the podcast, right Yeah, I mean
that's so true. I Mean, here's the thing that I
think we really need to highlight in this episode. Um,
(40:12):
because millions of Americans are struggling with high medical bills.
It's not just women with b I I I mean,
it's America. Americans have an enormous amount of medical depth
and it's a growing problem in the US. So, but
in this instance, women deserve an affordable way to fund
(40:32):
their treatment. Bankruptcy or death are not reasonable choices from fame.
I mean, the Kaiser Family Foundation has found that people
may forego the care that they need, including doctor's appointments
and tests and treatments and prescription medications, as they struggle
to pay their other bills. Um, they deplete their long
(40:55):
term savings, they damage your credit, they even declare bankruptcy,
and all these problems they can take years to overcome.
You're absolutely right, Christine, and I think that the financial
solution to this is out there. You know, I was
blessed to have a mentor who was incredible, and he
(41:15):
taught me his quote, which was, the solutions to life's
most pressing problems are out there. But what we need
our people, and those people have to be willing to
organize the TLC as we call it, into a sustainable
organization able to willing to support the community people who
are dedicated to this. What is TLC crist and total
listeners And it's another fancy finance acronym, but you know,
(41:40):
for us, it means technology, leadership in capital. And after
meeting all of these experts and survivors and thrivers and
advocates for someone like me, it became clear that we
could find the technology, we could find the leadership, and
we could find the capital that this community needs in
design a solution to support them. And I really look
(42:01):
forward to working with the community to expand our current
website Sectities into something that's more corporate ready um but
offers them a care as any health company. That will
really be the change we need to see and offer
women the solution and a safe place so they can
survive and thrive. Well, I think this is exciting. I mean,
(42:22):
I think it's clear that they need a safe place
to connect to meet accredited experts, to get real facts
and to access resources key to healing exactly. And we're
updating the website now with the vision and what we
plan to do to expand the site in the community.
And I think it's really important to do this with
(42:43):
the people that have gone through it. You know. I
have a good friend that you know who always says,
don't ever take directions from someone who hasn't been there.
And I'm really hopeful with all of the incredible survivors
and advocates and experts we've met, we can create a
way in a program will allow us to save women
valuable time and money and emotional suffering is they get diagnosed,
(43:06):
treated and healed. You know. I know, as we've learned,
it's time is everything, and I don't want people to
lose valuable healing time. And I think what we really
come to understand, and I through my recovery right now,
is that it takes more than a surgeon, but a
village of people just helping us heal from the inside out.
For me, it was the other survivors that truly lifted
(43:26):
me up at times when I felt really downt well.
We can build all that on the premise that together
we are not alone. Close to the Chest with Kristen
and Christine has been brought to you by B Noble
Media Group and I Heart Radio. A very special thanks
to our guest Kara dunham Lee. You can find Kara
(43:49):
on Instagram at Kara dunham Lee. That's k A r
A du and h A M l e E Kara
dunham Lee. Now I'd like to share some gratitude, A
very special thanks to I Heart Radio, to our Parker
and her I Heart Radio marketing team, and a big
big thanks to our executive producer Ramsay Yunt. If you
(44:13):
or someone you know would like to know more about
Preston plant illness, please visit sick Titties dot com. That's
s I c K t I T t I e
s dot com. Also, please follow us on Instagram at
sick dot Titties and at b Noble Art that's B
n O B L e A r T. And we
(44:35):
would also love to have you join our Facebook page
at B Noble on B I I and please remember
you're not alone. Together we can beat this. The views
and opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast author
or individuals participating in the podcast and do not represent
the opinions of my Heart Media or its employees. This
(44:56):
podcast should not be used as medical advice, mental health advice,
mental health counseling or therapy, or as imparting any health
care recommendations at all. Individuals are advised to seek independent
medical counseling, advice, and or therapy from a competent health
care professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issues,
health inquiry, or matter, including matters discussed on this podcast.
(45:21):
Close to the Chest with Kristen and Christine is a
production of I Heart Radio and produced in our studios
located in Atlanta, Georgia. For more podcasts from my heart Radio,
visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
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