January 21, 2025 • 40 mins
Transnational kleptocracy describes how corrupt rulers steal public funds and then launder those funds within the international financial system. It's accomplished by moving those funds from fragile states to “safer” jurisdictions—like the U.S.
Many of America’s foreign adversaries operate as kleptocracies and cutting off their illicit financial flows weakens their impact on free and open societies across the globe.
Anti-corruption organizations worldwide are increasingly focused on rooting out the kleptocrats, their funds, their networks, their shell corporations, and their facilitators.
One such organization, the National Endowment for Democracy, is an independent, bipartisan, non-governmental organization focused on strengthening democratic institutions worldwide. Zoë Reiter is the Director of NED’s program on combating kleptocracy. She recently spoke with Coercive Capital host Elaine Dezenski on her work and efforts to bolster the role of a civil society in exposing the networks of kleptocrats.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Today's podcast is supported by TRM. TRM enables compliance teams
to accelerate business revenue and deliver actionable intelligence to regulatory
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Request a free trial today at TRM labs dot com.
(00:33):
I'm Elaine Tzenski and this is Coercive Capital on the
Illicit Edge Network. Transnational cleptocracy describes how corrupt rulers such
as Vladimir Putin and Bashar al Assad, the aus DID
leader of Syria, steal public funds and then launder those
funds within the international financial system. It's accomplished by moving
those ill gotten.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Funds from fragile states to quote safer jurisdictions like the US,
Anti corruption or organizations around the world are increasingly focused
on rooting out the kleptocrats, their funds, their networks, their
shell corporations, and their facilitators. Founded in nineteen eighty three,
the National Endowment for Democracy or NED, is an independent, bipartisan,
(01:15):
non governmental organization focused on strengthening democratic institutions worldwide. Fighting
kleptocracy is one of their most critical areas of focus.
Zoe Writer is the director of net's program in combating leptocracy.
She has spent nearly two decades in the anti corruption arena,
including more than a decade at the anti corruption NGO,
Transparency International. She also co founded the Anti Corruption Data Collective,
(01:40):
an organization that promotes data driven analysis.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
To help tackle leptocracy.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
I recently spoke with Zoe on the Net's efforts to
bolster the role of civil society in exposing the networks
of kleptocrats. Zoe, I always think it's fascinating to learn
a little bit more about how people get into the
world of anti corruption. I know I kind of stumbled
into it years ago. I know others who stumbled into it.
(02:07):
I don't know that I have ever met anyone who
chose to go into the anti corruption space, but I'd
love to share with our viewers and listeners a little
bit more about your background, how you got into this
world of countering kryptocracy and anti corruption. And I know
you're an anthropologist among other things by training, so I'd
(02:30):
love to hear a little more about that.
Speaker 4 (02:32):
Oh way to begin, So I would say, I promised
this won't take so long, But in my twenties, I
really I was going to solve poverty right, And so
I spent a lot of time working in sort of
and studying and like the development framework, and I realized
you can't take a development approach. It's not like a
(02:55):
technological problem. It's a political problem. And I actually really
began to understand how many of the reasons that we
don't achieve our human rights outcomes are economic development outcomes
is fundamentally corruption.
Speaker 5 (03:15):
And that just became.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
Clear and clear, as you know, the more I worked
in Latin America or you could you know, the same
could be true in New York City, where I grew
up and I got my PhD. I have to confess
I didn't actually finish the dissertation in cultural anthropology because
I really wanted to better understand how power works. You
(03:39):
don't understand how power works unless you really deep dive
into corruption. And if you really want to achieve these
sort of democracy outcomes, you really got.
Speaker 5 (03:48):
To understand corruption. And you know, I.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
Mentioned it before, but I had originally had very rose
colored glasses in.
Speaker 5 (03:57):
My twenties at about.
Speaker 4 (03:59):
The Cuban Revolution. I'll say it, I'll say it, I can,
and so I went. I had a scholarship from a
foundation in the US to go do work on community
development in Cuba, and it didn't take me very long
to understand what it means not to have political freedom,
(04:23):
what it means to live in a surveillance state, what
it means to not have a choice over what you
teach as a history teacher.
Speaker 5 (04:32):
And it changed everything for me.
Speaker 4 (04:36):
And this is why in part also do you know
my time in you know, understanding and being on the
front lines of seeing the move from a dictatorship to
a democracy in Chile, I have become a pro democracy activist,
but I'm a pro democracy activist working to fight corruption
(04:57):
and especially focused on cryptocracy because I see that as
the core element that really undermines any real democracy or
human rights agendas.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
And I know you lived and worked in Europe for
a period of time while you were with Transparency International.
How did that experience change your thinking about global corruption?
Speaker 4 (05:22):
Well, I mean, besides watching the Wire, everything I've learned
about fighting corruption, I.
Speaker 5 (05:29):
Joke, but it is actually a terrific show.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
Everything I've learned about fighting corruption I've learned from my
colleagues on the front lines of fighting corruption in places
like Latin America, the Caribbean, Russia, Ukraine. Like I can't
even begin to tell you what a you know, everything
I've learned is from that time I had. I had
(05:51):
the honor of being for you know, both a regional
program manager and then a senior project leader at Transparency
International and basically is my role to work with the
chapters to devise strategies which would have more impact at
the multi country level. And we did a lot of
great things, but everything we did was you know, me
(06:14):
really listening and understanding what would bring impact in their.
Speaker 5 (06:18):
Lives in terms of combat and cryptocracy strategy.
Speaker 4 (06:22):
And you know, there's nothing like working with the people
who are doing it because on the one hand, they
can't imagine doing anything else, but they got to do
it well because actually lives are at stake, and so
some of the best and the brightest people that I
have worked with.
Speaker 5 (06:38):
I'm excited to see that Myra Martini, one of my.
Speaker 4 (06:41):
Colleagues at Transparency International from Brazil, is now the new
managing director of TI, so it'll be exciting to see
where she takes the movement.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Let's start with just a little bit about the history
of the NED, the mission of the NED, of how
they're funded, how it works with other organizations in civil society.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
So the NED or National Endowment for Democracy, is a private,
nonprofit organization that was established by the US government in
nineteen at eighty three with one singular mission, which is
to promote democracy around the world. And it is primarily
funded through congressional appropriations that go to NED through the
(07:26):
US Department of State. And before I get into sort
of the kind of work we do, I just want
to give a little bit of background because I learned
this yesterday as I was preparing for.
Speaker 5 (07:37):
This, that.
Speaker 4 (07:42):
The NET was set up in the wake of sort
of ongoing considerations by members of Congress how well some
of the work of the private German foundations had done
to support democracy being read instituted in places like Portugal
(08:02):
and Spain, as well as interest both democratic and republican,
to really foster.
Speaker 5 (08:12):
Democratic values around the world.
Speaker 4 (08:15):
And so there was this great speech by Ronald Reagan
called the Westminster Address I think it was in nineteen
eighty two. It was a major foreign policy address to
deliver it to the UK Parliament where he calls for
the initiative to quote foster the infrastructure of democracy, the
system of a free press, unions, political parties, universities which
(08:38):
allows people to choose their own way, to develop their
own culture, to reconcile their own differences through peaceful means.
And it's forty plus years later, and that's exactly what
we aim to do. The way we work is through
primarily through grant making, and our grant making goes through
what we consider the sort of four pillars of democracy.
Speaker 5 (09:00):
We have these core institutes.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
One is the Center for International Private Enterprise. That's one
pillar private enterprise. We have the Solidarity Center that's the
other pillar, labor, and then we have the National Democratic
Institute and the International Republican Institute. They work with political
parties to strengthen the capacity for political parties to foster
(09:25):
democratic norms and institutions. So half of our grant making
goes to these four core institutes for pro democracy outcomes,
and the other half of our grant making goes directly
to NGOs nonprofit organizations around the world that are championing
(09:45):
democracy and democratic values.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Do you have any specific geographic focus or is it
very much dependent on the kind of project that you
might be funding.
Speaker 5 (09:58):
We primarily work in countries.
Speaker 4 (10:02):
Well, first, I should say our number one priority are
the demock are closed countries countries without.
Speaker 5 (10:11):
Properly functioning democratic institutions.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
And we're really one of the very few donors who
do this kind of work, and we're supporting whether they're
in exile or in country activists who come to US.
I should also specify that NED is very demand driven.
We have an open call process. It's all transparent, it's
on our website, and we review the applications that we receive,
(10:38):
and we often hear from you know, groups you know
that carry tiny hand cameras around you know, you know,
closed states to sort of document human rights atrocities. And
some of those grants might be twenty thousand, but then
we also have of course larger grants, So we work
around the world where democracies are there closed or have
(11:03):
like are are at risk, or have sort of weak,
uh institutions that you know, local civil society really wants
to shore up and strengthen.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Yeah, and is that a challenge working in some of
these fragile states, you know, even fragile democracies where the
net may not be met with a high level of acceptance.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
Uh, it's a challenge, but it's one we're proud to
continue to tackle. We you know, we're supporting the real
frontline defenders of democracy. And as someone who has you know,
had visas to do research uh in places like Havanah
and been a witness not only was I of course
(11:47):
spied upon, but have a real witness of what these
totally close societies do to the human spirit and what
it really means not to have any political freedom. That
inspires That inspires me, and I know all of my
colleagues were inspired to do this work because we care.
Speaker 5 (12:07):
We are so mission focused on democracy for because we
absolutely believe in this political freedom.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
What you do is needed more than ever.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
But there's just so much demand, right that's uh, I
see that as part of the challenge. It's hard for
any organization to be everywhere it's needed. But it really
feels like we have some cracks in you know, in
the system globally that are not only in need of
(12:36):
civil society engagement, but broader partnerships and collaboration. And it
seems like the environment, you know, uh, it's getting a
little more challenging in that regard. But I want to
talk a little bit about your specific project around anti cryptocracy.
(12:57):
So you're in charge of all the anti kleptocracy work
at the NED, and it would be interesting to hear
how you're focusing that work, how you're defining kleptocracy, and
maybe a little bit about the strategy for that.
Speaker 4 (13:12):
Sure, And you know, you know, you can define kleptocracy
in multiple ways.
Speaker 5 (13:18):
The simplest version is of course ruled by thieves. But
what it really means is, you know, where you have.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
Basically a few lead state actors who are in control
of most of it, where corruption is no longer just
like you know, a challenge to a country, but it
is the whole operating system. So even the private sector
labor power, no one's independent of this sort of operating
system which is completely embedded with corruption. And so that's
(13:49):
sort of how we the basic definition. But I first
want to step back and say sort of why the
why of my position.
Speaker 5 (13:56):
So I'm part of a new cadre of.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
Directors at the National Endowtment of Democracy who have continued
the work that has begun. I think it's now eight
years ago to really think more systemically. And this goes
to your point about you know, getting spread too thin.
There is a need to think very systemically about some
(14:24):
of the cross regional challenges to democracy. And for ned
and I don't think anyone listening to this will really disagree.
The stolen wealth of kleptocratic governance is the lifeblood of
modern authoritarianism. So it's the why, and it's the how
that funds the destruction of democratic checks on the kleptocratic power.
Speaker 5 (14:47):
Both at home and abroad. So that's the why of
this work, right, And.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
It also recognizes one more thing, which is that kleptocracy
operates through multiple and ever adapting networks across multiple jurisdictions
to do three things extract wealth, consolidate power, and evade.
Speaker 5 (15:07):
The rule of law.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
So the Combat and Cryptocracy program has one overall objective,
which is to support powerful what we would call counter
networks and actions that enable and connect the local and
international actors across regions and sectors and expertise to better detect,
better deter and fundamentally dismantle those kleptocratic nodes and networks.
(15:32):
It's almost like networks in three D, Like I don't
want to think about it just horizontally. It's like really
creating more diverse and robust networks and counternodes to the
ever adapting game of combat and cryptocracy.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Yeah, What strikes me about this framing of kleptocracy is
every four adversary UH designated by the US and we're
talking about Iran, We're talking about Venezuela, We're talking about
North Korea, Russia and even to some extent China. They're
(16:12):
all kleptocracies. And I think this point needs to be
made more clearly. We're not just talking about authoritarian regimes.
We're talking about kleptocratic lably And this is this is
where I think, you know, what you do is so
important and where the public conversation becomes so important to
make that connection between thieves of state, this autocracy challenge,
(16:38):
and the erosion of democracy. So this is this is
absolutely critical. I know you started some new work around
countering what you've called kleptocratic supply chains. What does that mean?
Speaker 4 (16:53):
So fundamentally it's quite simple. I think that the anti
kleptocracy field, as it were, has UH broadly.
Speaker 5 (17:03):
Focused on.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
Sort of exposing and going after the money and the
wealth once it's been stolen, right, But there's so much
more to understand and unpack about, like the how and
the nature of that theft, which is typically and actually
it's entirely extractive, uh metaphorically and and typically uh literally.
Speaker 5 (17:31):
So much of the.
Speaker 4 (17:33):
Of of the wealth is through the extraction of either
you know, forced labor or.
Speaker 5 (17:41):
Extractive industries. It's capture.
Speaker 4 (17:44):
It's the kleptocratic capture of the of the of the
resources natural and human.
Speaker 5 (17:52):
Often that.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
Really is the is the source of all that wealth,
and it is often not just the source of the wealth,
but the power a cruel and the ability to manipulate
and expand geopolitically. Except actually, there's a great deal that's
really starting to burgeon around a great deal of capacity
around leveraging different data sets, whether they're private, public, or leaked.
Speaker 5 (18:18):
In new ways.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
And that also includes whether it's satellite data, you know,
trade data to be able to sort of detect uh
where these where these moments.
Speaker 5 (18:29):
Of kleptocratic capture are occurring.
Speaker 4 (18:32):
So you know, whether it's cryptomning in Transnistria that you
can now detect through really understanding the what's going on
with the electric grid, or whether it's you know, the
dual use, the dual use military supply chain that is
feeding Russia's war machine. You are seeing civil society, investigative journalism,
(19:00):
and data signed is being able to sort of detect
and unpack and monitor and illustrate a lot of these
kleptocratic flows in new and exciting ways. And it's that
kind of work that is linking both you know, that expertise,
but also decentralizing it, sharing it, making, you know, building
(19:22):
up the capacity of some of Net's partners around the
world to be able to leverage these data sets in
important ways.
Speaker 5 (19:30):
To is I think a critical.
Speaker 4 (19:36):
Next step, not just for NED, but I would hope
that many many donors who care about democracy will start
to think in a more concerned way about how we
can better detect to dismantle the kleptocratic supply chains, not
just the money once it's stolen.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
So I think your framing of kleptocratic supply chains is interesting.
We're not just talking aboutollowing the money. That's obviously really
critical part of countering kryptocracy, but that's not everything. It's
also about these networks and nodes and connections and ways
(20:15):
that influence occurs through kleptocratic partners. For example, one thing
that we've been looking at at FDD is this kind
of growing access of authoritarianism, how kleptocracies are working with
each other, and the enabling countries that are either participating
(20:42):
knowingly or may be caught up in different kinds of
networks and supply chains that are fueling authoritarian influence and
foreign adversarial issues. So how do you think about that
in terms of this enabling vironment and how to get
into these s colectocratic networks and supply chains and break
(21:06):
them down.
Speaker 4 (21:08):
So it's it's a great question, and I think that's
one of our core I call it a challenge, maybe
an opportunity, but so yes, that's absolutely what you're seeing.
Speaker 5 (21:18):
You're seeing, you know, whether it's India or the UAE.
Speaker 4 (21:24):
Playing critical roles not just as you know, destinations for investment,
but facilitators and enablers of sanctions of asion and other
sorts of currency control, evasions and so forth. And so
I think it's going to be and this is why I,
you know, I really see having distributed network capacity to
(21:44):
be able to not just detect these sort of illicit
flows and the enabling of these illicit flows through through
these third countries. But then the real question becomes, how
do you how do you ensure not just the one
off you know, going after this company and you know
(22:07):
because they you know, the sort of secondary stations which
are critical and we want to support those, But like,
how do you ensure civil society in those countries having
the capacity and the resilience to to to be part
of the solution, right, And the problem is it's not
(22:28):
easy because you know, for all the reasons we understand.
So I think it's really critical that you connect the
local civil society who has maybe the ground truth and
is understanding who the networks are on the ground, and
you know who the key players are in ways that
many you know, very few who aren't there can understand
(22:50):
with these sort of international change makers, whether it's an
international civil society organization that's advocating for certain kinds of
reforms or trusted law enforcement, the EU sanctions regime and
so forth. I think that that connecting of the dots
and really that enabling system is fundamental. And here I
(23:12):
will say this isn't the sexiest thing for some, but
I actually think it is core to this work is
strengthening making it more safe and effective for whistleblowers in
sectors that are either part of the enabling environment or
are subject.
Speaker 5 (23:30):
To kleptocratic capture to come forward and.
Speaker 4 (23:33):
Disclose, and so you know there you see, there's this
tremendous grantee of nets called the Platform to Protect Whistlelowers
in Africa PLATH for its French acronym, and they receive
the biggest leak of bank data in Africa.
Speaker 5 (23:51):
It's called thing.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
It's called the Congo hold up so much effect that
you know fact checked me. But this league was massive,
nothing like it before, and they were able to bring
on board investigative journalists, trust, a law enforcement they've basically
created and made made not only it safe and valuable
for this whistleblower to come forward, but you know, really
(24:14):
this led to a tremendous amount of work across dozens
of countries, and that data set and the trust that
plof you know has been able to generate across Africa
in terms of being able to provide the kind of
necessary support for whistle blowers but also being able to
make use of those disclosures for impact is critical.
Speaker 5 (24:37):
And I'll just say one more thing because it relates
to you.
Speaker 4 (24:40):
You had this meeting with someone who is in the
in the Justice Department, and I asked him, what's the
kind of information that you find useful for combating cryptocracy,
is it, you know, like you know, and he said
number one, number two and number three is whistleblower disclosures.
And so it's just always been clear to me how
(25:01):
important this is. And there's so much work to do too,
you know, at the systems level, to make it more
safe and effective for these whistleblowers to come forward.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Yeah. Absolutely, we have to create the create the safe
space for that to happen. Otherwise it's going to be
really difficult. And there's probably a lot more we can
do on the whistle whistleblower front. We'll see if there's
any opening, you know for that first, you know, with
the US Congress, but potentially working more broadly with international
(25:33):
partners around how to create that how to create that environment.
But I was looking at the PLAF website the other
day and it's it's remarkable, uh, the data that gave
out of that and uh and what they've been able
to do with it. But there's always that challenge, which is,
(25:54):
even when these examples come forward, when there's clear evidence,
there may not be a prosect, there may not be
a deeper investigation, and there of course lots of reasons
for that. Does the net work in that space around
judicial reform, how to help countries build up that infrastructure.
Speaker 4 (26:16):
So I should say, first of all, I just want
to make sure that the audience is NET doesn't work
in the you don't work on the US like we
were set up to work abroad, and so we're very
careful to like to protect that line. And I think
it's it's very healthy for our work to be able
to do so. And we absolutely support local activists and
(26:44):
think tanks to who are aiming to create greater resiliency
in their justice system for delivering truly you know, uh,
you know, for for for what I would call judicial integrity.
We don't set policies or standards it's other than the
(27:04):
you know, international norms and standards of course, uh.
Speaker 5 (27:08):
But we we do support work to make sure that,
you know.
Speaker 4 (27:14):
Judicial systems are resilient against capture by say organized crime
or or or other actors who are trying to undermine,
undermine the system for their for their remove. I mean
you could look at the case of the one MDB
and in Malaysia, I mean there were investigations happening that
(27:34):
got shut down because the judicial system wasn't fully independent
from manipulation by the kleptocrats.
Speaker 5 (27:43):
And so I think there's there's you know.
Speaker 4 (27:47):
It's critical for all the systems to be healthy and
operate with integrity and have the core sort of transparency, oversight,
accountability mechanisms built in to the degree that it is
viable in each country. And when it's you know, when
(28:07):
you're working in some countries, you know you can't count
on the local judicial.
Speaker 5 (28:14):
System to get the job done, and so that's.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
Where you'll see work to lean on, you know, some
of the international sanctions regimes, as you know, as a
venue for deterring some of the clectocratic behavior.
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demo at TRM labs dot com. So if you were
looking back in another of let's say four years, what
(29:15):
would success look like for you? What would how would
the environment change globally around this question of countering cryptocracy.
Speaker 5 (29:24):
I think, first and foremost a much deeper and broader
recognition that if you care about democracy, you need to
really be supporting anti cryptocracy work because cryptocracy is one
of the major threats. In my mind, it's the major
threat two democracies, and we need to there.
Speaker 4 (29:46):
We have an idea of what can be effective, We
have an idea of who some of our best champions are,
and we just need to better.
Speaker 5 (29:55):
Support them, you know.
Speaker 4 (29:57):
And you know, NED has been really leaning into this
work when I've seen other donors really missing the ball.
Speaker 5 (30:04):
And I hope that through over the next few years,
we can.
Speaker 4 (30:10):
Develop both a strong evidence base and impact case for
supporting this kind of work and supporting the sort of
counter networks that combat kleptocratic nodes and supply chains.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Yeah, and do you see specific opportunities globally where you
think that there's real chance for enhanced cooperation?
Speaker 3 (30:35):
Areas where you know you're surprised at the level of
cooperation or potential for that.
Speaker 4 (30:43):
So I think that they're you know, they've been doing
tremendous work, for example, bringing in and this isn't I'm
not speaking from the net, I'm speaking from the broader
like that. You know, there's been great work being done
for cooperation, whether it's Venue Whale or Russia. You know,
you know, sanctioning and targeting individuals and entities, and I
(31:07):
think beefing that up and and you know, you talk
to the folks who are sort of inside of this
work and leading this work that they just want more
support and cooperation, and I think getting getting greater connection,
connectivity between local civil societies. Finally, you know, understanding this
(31:28):
combat and cryptocracy as a driver of their both human
rights violations, whether it's economic or environment, mental crime, whether
it's a threat to peace building, really understanding that, and
as that grows, I think you're going to see much
stronger collaborations both across civil society, across regions, and you know,
(31:50):
both in civil society and government reformers.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
So you mentioned Venezuela, and I wanted to bring up
a specific case, and that's the director of the Venezuelan
NGOs Fasio Publico, Carlos Correa excuse me, who was disappeared
by the Maduro regime and reappeared recently under some I
(32:15):
think intense pressure from civil society and Venezuela, but also
from global leaders and hopefully from the US. What more
should we be doing to protect civil society in these
adversarial and fragile states? And is this part of what
the NET is thinking about and acting on.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
Absolutely, So, supporting democracy advocates at risk is core to
NETS mission and it's work we prioritize full stop, So
both protecting individual democracy advocates who might need support, as
well as really working to further a more comprehensive and
(32:59):
coordinated system of response to support democracy advocates at risk,
and that's something we really lean into. Certainly, there's so
much work to be done. And I really have to say,
at a personal level, Carlo's career is someone I know
and I met, I met years ago, and he's just
(33:20):
such a champion.
Speaker 5 (33:22):
Of human rights.
Speaker 4 (33:23):
And he was he was basically taken off the streets
by some thugs.
Speaker 5 (33:30):
Of the Venezuelan state who were masked.
Speaker 4 (33:33):
He was gone with no nobody had any idea where
he was. He just appeared yesterday morning after the Venezuela
state released him after bringing him to the their Court
of Terror of counter terrorism. The notion of Carlos as
a terrorist is just just inexcusable. He's, as I said,
(33:56):
one of the leading human rights defenders, and I'm.
Speaker 5 (34:00):
Just so grateful he's free.
Speaker 4 (34:02):
However, his his detention, especially in those conditions, is just
part of what we're seeing, is just a real emboldening
of authoritarians on the ground tackling you know, who are
really just you know, seemingly ever less unchained in their
(34:25):
attack and persecution of democracy advocates.
Speaker 5 (34:29):
Which is why we do need to think.
Speaker 4 (34:31):
Much more systemically about how we can create systems that
support them both at home but also when they go
into exile and there, I say, NED has this project
for scholars at risk that you know, I think it's
in forty countries, and it's with academics committed to human
(34:55):
rights and freedom of expression, and it gives political dissonance
and human rights defenders, lawyers, artists who are in exile
or had to flee, you know, it sort of treats
them as fellows and residents and is working to give
them the kind of support that they need, but also
(35:18):
to contribute to a large or more systemic understanding about
both the.
Speaker 5 (35:21):
Problem and how to tackle it.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
Yeah, this is so critical. I'll just share anecdotally, you
know that I've heard from folks who are in the field,
working in a variety of civil society type roles that
it's becoming more and more difficult, not only to operate safely,
but in certain environments there is now just a huge
(35:46):
inflow of cash coming from adversarial regimes who are actually
buying out NGOs. So that presents yet another threat to
this where you have actors potentially in the systems that
have been taken over by by foreign adversaries, are those
interests and it's difficult to untangle that to understand where
(36:10):
the funding is coming from. So it's this, it's this
corruption of civil society, which I find to be incredibly dangerous,
incredibly dangerous.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
So I don't know if that's.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
A space where the net is working or thinking about,
but I think going back to some of your comments
about creating the distributed networks where organizations can support each other,
you know, bringing more attention to the work that they're doing,
creating these safe spaces, the whistle boar protections, all of
that should you know, hopefully reinforce that that type of
(36:49):
environment that becomes more conducive to the work of.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
NGOs.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
But it's difficult, absolutely, and you know, I want all
the you know, the world out there needs to understand,
if you care about human rights, you have a kleptocracy problem.
If you care about economic and national security, you have
a kleptocracy problem. And the more that we can do
in common cause to tackle kleptocracy, the stronger outcomes will
(37:16):
have for democracy as a whole.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
And changing these fundamentals around how kleptocrats operate the networks
and notes that they're using the supply chains. You know,
ultimately this links back to other regimes we have in place.
We talked, you talked a little bit about sanctions and
their impact, but the costs of addressing these types of
(37:41):
national security threats, whether we're talking about what banks have
to do to secure their systems from money laundering and
illicted finance and the impact of corruption, systemic costs that
that that free societies have to shoulder, right part of
this kind of push back against cleptocracy.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
I don't think that's well understood either.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
So you know, we need to I think need to
be thinking about our civil society engagement and the investments
that we make in a different way. It's really part
of the frontline. It's really part of the national security agenda.
It's not a sidebar to that. It's not a you know,
a program on the margins, because the governance questions are
(38:29):
so critical.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
To national security.
Speaker 5 (38:33):
And you know, let's spin back to Cuba.
Speaker 4 (38:36):
You know it is this is about freedom and democracy.
Speaker 5 (38:41):
So nobody can tell you know, like.
Speaker 4 (38:44):
Nobody is free in Cuba, and Cuba you pretend that
they have no resources right now, that their people are
starving because of the US embargo. All I know is
that just recently there was a major lead to the
Miami Herald, which basically showed billions being stashed away by the.
Speaker 5 (39:08):
You know, the.
Speaker 4 (39:08):
Leaders of the of the Cuban political party, so you
know who. The idea that you know, we can we
can separate kleptocracy from human freedom is false. If you
care about democracy and you care about human freedom, you
absolutely have to commit to fighting kryptocracy.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
Zoe Writer is a fighter. She's a champion for democracy.
Her work to dismantle kleptocratic networks should be understood as
part of how civil society organizations can and do strengthen
our national security. America's foreign adversaries operate as leptocracies. Cutting
off their illicit financial flows weaken their impact on free
and open societies. My thanks to Zoe for her great
(39:54):
work and for joining me on this episode. I'm Elaine
Dozinski and this is coercive capital on the elicit Edge network.
Today's podcast is supported by TRM. TRM enables compliance teams
to accelerate business revenue and deliver actionable intelligence to regulatory
and law enforcement stakeholders. With leading attribution of severe risk categories.
Request a free trial today at TRM labs dot com.
(00:33):
I'm Elaine Tzenski and this is Coercive Capital on the
Illicit Edge Network. Transnational cleptocracy describes how corrupt rulers such
as Vladimir Putin and Bashar al Assad, the aus DID
leader of Syria, steal public funds and then launder those
funds within the international financial system. It's accomplished by moving
those ill gotten.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Funds from fragile states to quote safer jurisdictions like the US,
Anti corruption or organizations around the world are increasingly focused
on rooting out the kleptocrats, their funds, their networks, their
shell corporations, and their facilitators. Founded in nineteen eighty three,
the National Endowment for Democracy or NED, is an independent, bipartisan,
(01:15):
non governmental organization focused on strengthening democratic institutions worldwide. Fighting
kleptocracy is one of their most critical areas of focus.
Zoe Writer is the director of net's program in combating leptocracy.
She has spent nearly two decades in the anti corruption arena,
including more than a decade at the anti corruption NGO,
Transparency International. She also co founded the Anti Corruption Data Collective,
(01:40):
an organization that promotes data driven analysis.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
To help tackle leptocracy.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
I recently spoke with Zoe on the Net's efforts to
bolster the role of civil society in exposing the networks
of kleptocrats. Zoe, I always think it's fascinating to learn
a little bit more about how people get into the
world of anti corruption. I know I kind of stumbled
into it years ago. I know others who stumbled into it.
(02:07):
I don't know that I have ever met anyone who
chose to go into the anti corruption space, but I'd
love to share with our viewers and listeners a little
bit more about your background, how you got into this
world of countering kryptocracy and anti corruption. And I know
you're an anthropologist among other things by training, so I'd
(02:30):
love to hear a little more about that.
Speaker 4 (02:32):
Oh way to begin, So I would say, I promised
this won't take so long, But in my twenties, I
really I was going to solve poverty right, And so
I spent a lot of time working in sort of
and studying and like the development framework, and I realized
you can't take a development approach. It's not like a
(02:55):
technological problem. It's a political problem. And I actually really
began to understand how many of the reasons that we
don't achieve our human rights outcomes are economic development outcomes
is fundamentally corruption.
Speaker 5 (03:15):
And that just became.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
Clear and clear, as you know, the more I worked
in Latin America or you could you know, the same
could be true in New York City, where I grew
up and I got my PhD. I have to confess
I didn't actually finish the dissertation in cultural anthropology because
I really wanted to better understand how power works. You
(03:39):
don't understand how power works unless you really deep dive
into corruption. And if you really want to achieve these
sort of democracy outcomes, you really got.
Speaker 5 (03:48):
To understand corruption. And you know, I.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
Mentioned it before, but I had originally had very rose
colored glasses in.
Speaker 5 (03:57):
My twenties at about.
Speaker 4 (03:59):
The Cuban Revolution. I'll say it, I'll say it, I can,
and so I went. I had a scholarship from a
foundation in the US to go do work on community
development in Cuba, and it didn't take me very long
to understand what it means not to have political freedom,
(04:23):
what it means to live in a surveillance state, what
it means to not have a choice over what you
teach as a history teacher.
Speaker 5 (04:32):
And it changed everything for me.
Speaker 4 (04:36):
And this is why in part also do you know
my time in you know, understanding and being on the
front lines of seeing the move from a dictatorship to
a democracy in Chile, I have become a pro democracy activist,
but I'm a pro democracy activist working to fight corruption
(04:57):
and especially focused on cryptocracy because I see that as
the core element that really undermines any real democracy or
human rights agendas.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
And I know you lived and worked in Europe for
a period of time while you were with Transparency International.
How did that experience change your thinking about global corruption?
Speaker 4 (05:22):
Well, I mean, besides watching the Wire, everything I've learned
about fighting corruption, I.
Speaker 5 (05:29):
Joke, but it is actually a terrific show.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
Everything I've learned about fighting corruption I've learned from my
colleagues on the front lines of fighting corruption in places
like Latin America, the Caribbean, Russia, Ukraine. Like I can't
even begin to tell you what a you know, everything
I've learned is from that time I had. I had
(05:51):
the honor of being for you know, both a regional
program manager and then a senior project leader at Transparency
International and basically is my role to work with the
chapters to devise strategies which would have more impact at
the multi country level. And we did a lot of
great things, but everything we did was you know, me
(06:14):
really listening and understanding what would bring impact in their.
Speaker 5 (06:18):
Lives in terms of combat and cryptocracy strategy.
Speaker 4 (06:22):
And you know, there's nothing like working with the people
who are doing it because on the one hand, they
can't imagine doing anything else, but they got to do
it well because actually lives are at stake, and so
some of the best and the brightest people that I
have worked with.
Speaker 5 (06:38):
I'm excited to see that Myra Martini, one of my.
Speaker 4 (06:41):
Colleagues at Transparency International from Brazil, is now the new
managing director of TI, so it'll be exciting to see
where she takes the movement.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Let's start with just a little bit about the history
of the NED, the mission of the NED, of how
they're funded, how it works with other organizations in civil society.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
So the NED or National Endowment for Democracy, is a private,
nonprofit organization that was established by the US government in
nineteen at eighty three with one singular mission, which is
to promote democracy around the world. And it is primarily
funded through congressional appropriations that go to NED through the
(07:26):
US Department of State. And before I get into sort
of the kind of work we do, I just want
to give a little bit of background because I learned
this yesterday as I was preparing for.
Speaker 5 (07:37):
This, that.
Speaker 4 (07:42):
The NET was set up in the wake of sort
of ongoing considerations by members of Congress how well some
of the work of the private German foundations had done
to support democracy being read instituted in places like Portugal
(08:02):
and Spain, as well as interest both democratic and republican,
to really foster.
Speaker 5 (08:12):
Democratic values around the world.
Speaker 4 (08:15):
And so there was this great speech by Ronald Reagan
called the Westminster Address I think it was in nineteen
eighty two. It was a major foreign policy address to
deliver it to the UK Parliament where he calls for
the initiative to quote foster the infrastructure of democracy, the
system of a free press, unions, political parties, universities which
(08:38):
allows people to choose their own way, to develop their
own culture, to reconcile their own differences through peaceful means.
And it's forty plus years later, and that's exactly what
we aim to do. The way we work is through
primarily through grant making, and our grant making goes through
what we consider the sort of four pillars of democracy.
Speaker 5 (09:00):
We have these core institutes.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
One is the Center for International Private Enterprise. That's one
pillar private enterprise. We have the Solidarity Center that's the
other pillar, labor, and then we have the National Democratic
Institute and the International Republican Institute. They work with political
parties to strengthen the capacity for political parties to foster
(09:25):
democratic norms and institutions. So half of our grant making
goes to these four core institutes for pro democracy outcomes,
and the other half of our grant making goes directly
to NGOs nonprofit organizations around the world that are championing
(09:45):
democracy and democratic values.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Do you have any specific geographic focus or is it
very much dependent on the kind of project that you
might be funding.
Speaker 5 (09:58):
We primarily work in countries.
Speaker 4 (10:02):
Well, first, I should say our number one priority are
the demock are closed countries countries without.
Speaker 5 (10:11):
Properly functioning democratic institutions.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
And we're really one of the very few donors who
do this kind of work, and we're supporting whether they're
in exile or in country activists who come to US.
I should also specify that NED is very demand driven.
We have an open call process. It's all transparent, it's
on our website, and we review the applications that we receive,
(10:38):
and we often hear from you know, groups you know
that carry tiny hand cameras around you know, you know,
closed states to sort of document human rights atrocities. And
some of those grants might be twenty thousand, but then
we also have of course larger grants, So we work
around the world where democracies are there closed or have
(11:03):
like are are at risk, or have sort of weak,
uh institutions that you know, local civil society really wants
to shore up and strengthen.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Yeah, and is that a challenge working in some of
these fragile states, you know, even fragile democracies where the
net may not be met with a high level of acceptance.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
Uh, it's a challenge, but it's one we're proud to
continue to tackle. We you know, we're supporting the real
frontline defenders of democracy. And as someone who has you know,
had visas to do research uh in places like Havanah
and been a witness not only was I of course
(11:47):
spied upon, but have a real witness of what these
totally close societies do to the human spirit and what
it really means not to have any political freedom. That
inspires That inspires me, and I know all of my
colleagues were inspired to do this work because we care.
Speaker 5 (12:07):
We are so mission focused on democracy for because we
absolutely believe in this political freedom.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
What you do is needed more than ever.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
But there's just so much demand, right that's uh, I
see that as part of the challenge. It's hard for
any organization to be everywhere it's needed. But it really
feels like we have some cracks in you know, in
the system globally that are not only in need of
(12:36):
civil society engagement, but broader partnerships and collaboration. And it
seems like the environment, you know, uh, it's getting a
little more challenging in that regard. But I want to
talk a little bit about your specific project around anti cryptocracy.
(12:57):
So you're in charge of all the anti kleptocracy work
at the NED, and it would be interesting to hear
how you're focusing that work, how you're defining kleptocracy, and
maybe a little bit about the strategy for that.
Speaker 4 (13:12):
Sure, And you know, you know, you can define kleptocracy
in multiple ways.
Speaker 5 (13:18):
The simplest version is of course ruled by thieves. But
what it really means is, you know, where you have.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
Basically a few lead state actors who are in control
of most of it, where corruption is no longer just
like you know, a challenge to a country, but it
is the whole operating system. So even the private sector
labor power, no one's independent of this sort of operating
system which is completely embedded with corruption. And so that's
(13:49):
sort of how we the basic definition. But I first
want to step back and say sort of why the
why of my position.
Speaker 5 (13:56):
So I'm part of a new cadre of.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
Directors at the National Endowtment of Democracy who have continued
the work that has begun. I think it's now eight
years ago to really think more systemically. And this goes
to your point about you know, getting spread too thin.
There is a need to think very systemically about some
(14:24):
of the cross regional challenges to democracy. And for ned
and I don't think anyone listening to this will really disagree.
The stolen wealth of kleptocratic governance is the lifeblood of
modern authoritarianism. So it's the why, and it's the how
that funds the destruction of democratic checks on the kleptocratic power.
Speaker 5 (14:47):
Both at home and abroad. So that's the why of
this work, right, And.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
It also recognizes one more thing, which is that kleptocracy
operates through multiple and ever adapting networks across multiple jurisdictions
to do three things extract wealth, consolidate power, and evade.
Speaker 5 (15:07):
The rule of law.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
So the Combat and Cryptocracy program has one overall objective,
which is to support powerful what we would call counter
networks and actions that enable and connect the local and
international actors across regions and sectors and expertise to better detect,
better deter and fundamentally dismantle those kleptocratic nodes and networks.
(15:32):
It's almost like networks in three D, Like I don't
want to think about it just horizontally. It's like really
creating more diverse and robust networks and counternodes to the
ever adapting game of combat and cryptocracy.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Yeah, What strikes me about this framing of kleptocracy is
every four adversary UH designated by the US and we're
talking about Iran, We're talking about Venezuela, We're talking about
North Korea, Russia and even to some extent China. They're
(16:12):
all kleptocracies. And I think this point needs to be
made more clearly. We're not just talking about authoritarian regimes.
We're talking about kleptocratic lably And this is this is
where I think, you know, what you do is so
important and where the public conversation becomes so important to
make that connection between thieves of state, this autocracy challenge,
(16:38):
and the erosion of democracy. So this is this is
absolutely critical. I know you started some new work around
countering what you've called kleptocratic supply chains. What does that mean?
Speaker 4 (16:53):
So fundamentally it's quite simple. I think that the anti
kleptocracy field, as it were, has UH broadly.
Speaker 5 (17:03):
Focused on.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
Sort of exposing and going after the money and the
wealth once it's been stolen, right, But there's so much
more to understand and unpack about, like the how and
the nature of that theft, which is typically and actually
it's entirely extractive, uh metaphorically and and typically uh literally.
Speaker 5 (17:31):
So much of the.
Speaker 4 (17:33):
Of of the wealth is through the extraction of either
you know, forced labor or.
Speaker 5 (17:41):
Extractive industries. It's capture.
Speaker 4 (17:44):
It's the kleptocratic capture of the of the of the
resources natural and human.
Speaker 5 (17:52):
Often that.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
Really is the is the source of all that wealth,
and it is often not just the source of the wealth,
but the power a cruel and the ability to manipulate
and expand geopolitically. Except actually, there's a great deal that's
really starting to burgeon around a great deal of capacity
around leveraging different data sets, whether they're private, public, or leaked.
Speaker 5 (18:18):
In new ways.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
And that also includes whether it's satellite data, you know,
trade data to be able to sort of detect uh
where these where these moments.
Speaker 5 (18:29):
Of kleptocratic capture are occurring.
Speaker 4 (18:32):
So you know, whether it's cryptomning in Transnistria that you
can now detect through really understanding the what's going on
with the electric grid, or whether it's you know, the
dual use, the dual use military supply chain that is
feeding Russia's war machine. You are seeing civil society, investigative journalism,
(19:00):
and data signed is being able to sort of detect
and unpack and monitor and illustrate a lot of these
kleptocratic flows in new and exciting ways. And it's that
kind of work that is linking both you know, that expertise,
but also decentralizing it, sharing it, making, you know, building
(19:22):
up the capacity of some of Net's partners around the
world to be able to leverage these data sets in
important ways.
Speaker 5 (19:30):
To is I think a critical.
Speaker 4 (19:36):
Next step, not just for NED, but I would hope
that many many donors who care about democracy will start
to think in a more concerned way about how we
can better detect to dismantle the kleptocratic supply chains, not
just the money once it's stolen.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
So I think your framing of kleptocratic supply chains is interesting.
We're not just talking aboutollowing the money. That's obviously really
critical part of countering kryptocracy, but that's not everything. It's
also about these networks and nodes and connections and ways
(20:15):
that influence occurs through kleptocratic partners. For example, one thing
that we've been looking at at FDD is this kind
of growing access of authoritarianism, how kleptocracies are working with
each other, and the enabling countries that are either participating
(20:42):
knowingly or may be caught up in different kinds of
networks and supply chains that are fueling authoritarian influence and
foreign adversarial issues. So how do you think about that
in terms of this enabling vironment and how to get
into these s colectocratic networks and supply chains and break
(21:06):
them down.
Speaker 4 (21:08):
So it's it's a great question, and I think that's
one of our core I call it a challenge, maybe
an opportunity, but so yes, that's absolutely what you're seeing.
Speaker 5 (21:18):
You're seeing, you know, whether it's India or the UAE.
Speaker 4 (21:24):
Playing critical roles not just as you know, destinations for investment,
but facilitators and enablers of sanctions of asion and other
sorts of currency control, evasions and so forth. And so
I think it's going to be and this is why I,
you know, I really see having distributed network capacity to
(21:44):
be able to not just detect these sort of illicit
flows and the enabling of these illicit flows through through
these third countries. But then the real question becomes, how
do you how do you ensure not just the one
off you know, going after this company and you know
(22:07):
because they you know, the sort of secondary stations which
are critical and we want to support those, But like,
how do you ensure civil society in those countries having
the capacity and the resilience to to to be part
of the solution, right, And the problem is it's not
(22:28):
easy because you know, for all the reasons we understand.
So I think it's really critical that you connect the
local civil society who has maybe the ground truth and
is understanding who the networks are on the ground, and
you know who the key players are in ways that
many you know, very few who aren't there can understand
(22:50):
with these sort of international change makers, whether it's an
international civil society organization that's advocating for certain kinds of
reforms or trusted law enforcement, the EU sanctions regime and
so forth. I think that that connecting of the dots
and really that enabling system is fundamental. And here I
(23:12):
will say this isn't the sexiest thing for some, but
I actually think it is core to this work is
strengthening making it more safe and effective for whistleblowers in
sectors that are either part of the enabling environment or
are subject.
Speaker 5 (23:30):
To kleptocratic capture to come forward and.
Speaker 4 (23:33):
Disclose, and so you know there you see, there's this
tremendous grantee of nets called the Platform to Protect Whistlelowers
in Africa PLATH for its French acronym, and they receive
the biggest leak of bank data in Africa.
Speaker 5 (23:51):
It's called thing.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
It's called the Congo hold up so much effect that
you know fact checked me. But this league was massive,
nothing like it before, and they were able to bring
on board investigative journalists, trust, a law enforcement they've basically
created and made made not only it safe and valuable
for this whistleblower to come forward, but you know, really
(24:14):
this led to a tremendous amount of work across dozens
of countries, and that data set and the trust that
plof you know has been able to generate across Africa
in terms of being able to provide the kind of
necessary support for whistle blowers but also being able to
make use of those disclosures for impact is critical.
Speaker 5 (24:37):
And I'll just say one more thing because it relates
to you.
Speaker 4 (24:40):
You had this meeting with someone who is in the
in the Justice Department, and I asked him, what's the
kind of information that you find useful for combating cryptocracy,
is it, you know, like you know, and he said
number one, number two and number three is whistleblower disclosures.
And so it's just always been clear to me how
(25:01):
important this is. And there's so much work to do too,
you know, at the systems level, to make it more
safe and effective for these whistleblowers to come forward.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Yeah. Absolutely, we have to create the create the safe
space for that to happen. Otherwise it's going to be
really difficult. And there's probably a lot more we can
do on the whistle whistleblower front. We'll see if there's
any opening, you know for that first, you know, with
the US Congress, but potentially working more broadly with international
(25:33):
partners around how to create that how to create that environment.
But I was looking at the PLAF website the other
day and it's it's remarkable, uh, the data that gave
out of that and uh and what they've been able
to do with it. But there's always that challenge, which is,
(25:54):
even when these examples come forward, when there's clear evidence,
there may not be a prosect, there may not be
a deeper investigation, and there of course lots of reasons
for that. Does the net work in that space around
judicial reform, how to help countries build up that infrastructure.
Speaker 4 (26:16):
So I should say, first of all, I just want
to make sure that the audience is NET doesn't work
in the you don't work on the US like we
were set up to work abroad, and so we're very
careful to like to protect that line. And I think
it's it's very healthy for our work to be able
to do so. And we absolutely support local activists and
(26:44):
think tanks to who are aiming to create greater resiliency
in their justice system for delivering truly you know, uh,
you know, for for for what I would call judicial integrity.
We don't set policies or standards it's other than the
(27:04):
you know, international norms and standards of course, uh.
Speaker 5 (27:08):
But we we do support work to make sure that,
you know.
Speaker 4 (27:14):
Judicial systems are resilient against capture by say organized crime
or or or other actors who are trying to undermine,
undermine the system for their for their remove. I mean
you could look at the case of the one MDB
and in Malaysia, I mean there were investigations happening that
(27:34):
got shut down because the judicial system wasn't fully independent
from manipulation by the kleptocrats.
Speaker 5 (27:43):
And so I think there's there's you know.
Speaker 4 (27:47):
It's critical for all the systems to be healthy and
operate with integrity and have the core sort of transparency, oversight,
accountability mechanisms built in to the degree that it is
viable in each country. And when it's you know, when
(28:07):
you're working in some countries, you know you can't count
on the local judicial.
Speaker 5 (28:14):
System to get the job done, and so that's.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
Where you'll see work to lean on, you know, some
of the international sanctions regimes, as you know, as a
venue for deterring some of the clectocratic behavior.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
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(28:51):
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looking back in another of let's say four years, what
(29:15):
would success look like for you? What would how would
the environment change globally around this question of countering cryptocracy.
Speaker 5 (29:24):
I think, first and foremost a much deeper and broader
recognition that if you care about democracy, you need to
really be supporting anti cryptocracy work because cryptocracy is one
of the major threats. In my mind, it's the major
threat two democracies, and we need to there.
Speaker 4 (29:46):
We have an idea of what can be effective, We
have an idea of who some of our best champions are,
and we just need to better.
Speaker 5 (29:55):
Support them, you know.
Speaker 4 (29:57):
And you know, NED has been really leaning into this
work when I've seen other donors really missing the ball.
Speaker 5 (30:04):
And I hope that through over the next few years,
we can.
Speaker 4 (30:10):
Develop both a strong evidence base and impact case for
supporting this kind of work and supporting the sort of
counter networks that combat kleptocratic nodes and supply chains.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Yeah, and do you see specific opportunities globally where you
think that there's real chance for enhanced cooperation?
Speaker 3 (30:35):
Areas where you know you're surprised at the level of
cooperation or potential for that.
Speaker 4 (30:43):
So I think that they're you know, they've been doing
tremendous work, for example, bringing in and this isn't I'm
not speaking from the net, I'm speaking from the broader
like that. You know, there's been great work being done
for cooperation, whether it's Venue Whale or Russia. You know,
you know, sanctioning and targeting individuals and entities, and I
(31:07):
think beefing that up and and you know, you talk
to the folks who are sort of inside of this
work and leading this work that they just want more
support and cooperation, and I think getting getting greater connection,
connectivity between local civil societies. Finally, you know, understanding this
(31:28):
combat and cryptocracy as a driver of their both human
rights violations, whether it's economic or environment, mental crime, whether
it's a threat to peace building, really understanding that, and
as that grows, I think you're going to see much
stronger collaborations both across civil society, across regions, and you know,
(31:50):
both in civil society and government reformers.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
So you mentioned Venezuela, and I wanted to bring up
a specific case, and that's the director of the Venezuelan
NGOs Fasio Publico, Carlos Correa excuse me, who was disappeared
by the Maduro regime and reappeared recently under some I
(32:15):
think intense pressure from civil society and Venezuela, but also
from global leaders and hopefully from the US. What more
should we be doing to protect civil society in these
adversarial and fragile states? And is this part of what
the NET is thinking about and acting on.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
Absolutely, So, supporting democracy advocates at risk is core to
NETS mission and it's work we prioritize full stop, So
both protecting individual democracy advocates who might need support, as
well as really working to further a more comprehensive and
(32:59):
coordinated system of response to support democracy advocates at risk,
and that's something we really lean into. Certainly, there's so
much work to be done. And I really have to say,
at a personal level, Carlo's career is someone I know
and I met, I met years ago, and he's just
(33:20):
such a champion.
Speaker 5 (33:22):
Of human rights.
Speaker 4 (33:23):
And he was he was basically taken off the streets
by some thugs.
Speaker 5 (33:30):
Of the Venezuelan state who were masked.
Speaker 4 (33:33):
He was gone with no nobody had any idea where
he was. He just appeared yesterday morning after the Venezuela
state released him after bringing him to the their Court
of Terror of counter terrorism. The notion of Carlos as
a terrorist is just just inexcusable. He's, as I said,
(33:56):
one of the leading human rights defenders, and I'm.
Speaker 5 (34:00):
Just so grateful he's free.
Speaker 4 (34:02):
However, his his detention, especially in those conditions, is just
part of what we're seeing, is just a real emboldening
of authoritarians on the ground tackling you know, who are
really just you know, seemingly ever less unchained in their
(34:25):
attack and persecution of democracy advocates.
Speaker 5 (34:29):
Which is why we do need to think.
Speaker 4 (34:31):
Much more systemically about how we can create systems that
support them both at home but also when they go
into exile and there, I say, NED has this project
for scholars at risk that you know, I think it's
in forty countries, and it's with academics committed to human
(34:55):
rights and freedom of expression, and it gives political dissonance
and human rights defenders, lawyers, artists who are in exile
or had to flee, you know, it sort of treats
them as fellows and residents and is working to give
them the kind of support that they need, but also
(35:18):
to contribute to a large or more systemic understanding about
both the.
Speaker 5 (35:21):
Problem and how to tackle it.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
Yeah, this is so critical. I'll just share anecdotally, you
know that I've heard from folks who are in the field,
working in a variety of civil society type roles that
it's becoming more and more difficult, not only to operate safely,
but in certain environments there is now just a huge
(35:46):
inflow of cash coming from adversarial regimes who are actually
buying out NGOs. So that presents yet another threat to
this where you have actors potentially in the systems that
have been taken over by by foreign adversaries, are those
interests and it's difficult to untangle that to understand where
(36:10):
the funding is coming from. So it's this, it's this
corruption of civil society, which I find to be incredibly dangerous,
incredibly dangerous.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
So I don't know if that's.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
A space where the net is working or thinking about,
but I think going back to some of your comments
about creating the distributed networks where organizations can support each other,
you know, bringing more attention to the work that they're doing,
creating these safe spaces, the whistle boar protections, all of
that should you know, hopefully reinforce that that type of
(36:49):
environment that becomes more conducive to the work of.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
NGOs.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
But it's difficult, absolutely, and you know, I want all
the you know, the world out there needs to understand,
if you care about human rights, you have a kleptocracy problem.
If you care about economic and national security, you have
a kleptocracy problem. And the more that we can do
in common cause to tackle kleptocracy, the stronger outcomes will
(37:16):
have for democracy as a whole.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
And changing these fundamentals around how kleptocrats operate the networks
and notes that they're using the supply chains. You know,
ultimately this links back to other regimes we have in place.
We talked, you talked a little bit about sanctions and
their impact, but the costs of addressing these types of
(37:41):
national security threats, whether we're talking about what banks have
to do to secure their systems from money laundering and
illicted finance and the impact of corruption, systemic costs that
that that free societies have to shoulder, right part of
this kind of push back against cleptocracy.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
I don't think that's well understood either.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
So you know, we need to I think need to
be thinking about our civil society engagement and the investments
that we make in a different way. It's really part
of the frontline. It's really part of the national security agenda.
It's not a sidebar to that. It's not a you know,
a program on the margins, because the governance questions are
(38:29):
so critical.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
To national security.
Speaker 5 (38:33):
And you know, let's spin back to Cuba.
Speaker 4 (38:36):
You know it is this is about freedom and democracy.
Speaker 5 (38:41):
So nobody can tell you know, like.
Speaker 4 (38:44):
Nobody is free in Cuba, and Cuba you pretend that
they have no resources right now, that their people are
starving because of the US embargo. All I know is
that just recently there was a major lead to the
Miami Herald, which basically showed billions being stashed away by the.
Speaker 5 (39:08):
You know, the.
Speaker 4 (39:08):
Leaders of the of the Cuban political party, so you
know who. The idea that you know, we can we
can separate kleptocracy from human freedom is false. If you
care about democracy and you care about human freedom, you
absolutely have to commit to fighting kryptocracy.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
Zoe Writer is a fighter. She's a champion for democracy.
Her work to dismantle kleptocratic networks should be understood as
part of how civil society organizations can and do strengthen
our national security. America's foreign adversaries operate as leptocracies. Cutting
off their illicit financial flows weaken their impact on free
and open societies. My thanks to Zoe for her great
(39:54):
work and for joining me on this episode. I'm Elaine
Dozinski and this is coercive capital on the elicit Edge network.
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