May 12, 2022 • 30 mins
The news is paramount to our democracy, and yet, it’s become increasingly challenging to consume. How can we discern fact from fiction? How can we prevent news fatigue? This week, Eva is joined by veteran journalist and News Not Noise founder, Jessica Yellin, to shed light on our connection to the news.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello, and welcome back to Connections. I'm Eva Longoria and
today's episode is all about our connection to the news.
I don't know about you guys, but after the Trump administration,
I had to put my head in the sand and
turn off the news. I was addicted to this seven
(00:22):
cycle of breaking news, and I had to watch everything
and listen to everything. I would have it on when
I would get up in the morning, I would get
into my car. It was what I listened to on streaming.
I would get out of the car, I would listen
to the podcast, and then I would get home and
it was it was just like the cycle. And I
realized I was having so much anxiety about it that
then I turned it off and and I haven't really
(00:43):
gone back to it. And then I found this amazing
human being who does news not noise, Jessica Yellen, and
I said, Okay, this I can digest. I just want
the facts. I just want to know what's happening in
the world. I don't want opinion news. I don't want
your opinion on it. I don't even know my own
(01:04):
opinion on it, so I can't get fed your opinion
on it. But I just think when it comes to
current news and how it's changed to the last couple
of years, and and then watching all those Roger Ales
show there was like a movie and then there was
a series, and I was like, Oh my gosh, how
society's relationship with the news has changed, and how we
have been manipulated in a way to be addicted to
(01:28):
a seven news cycle. And so I wanted to explore this,
like what should our connection be to the news? I mean,
is it our civic duty to pay attention? Or do
we protect our mental health, which is what I had chosen.
But I do think there's a balance, and so I'm
eager to get into this conversation with the amazing Jessica Yelling.
Jessica is the founder of News Not Noise. It's an
(01:50):
independent news outlet with the slogan we think the news
should give you information and not a panic attack. She's
been working in the news media for over two decades
as a reporter and a chief White House correspondent at ABC, MSNBC, CNN.
She's also the author of the novel Savage News, which,
(02:10):
by the way, I've optioned we're making into a TV
show because it's so good. So she knows a thing
or two about the news industry, and I'm excited to
talk to about how we should connect to the news.
So welcome to the show, Jessica Eva. Thank you, what
an amazing introduction. I'm so happy to be on with you.
Oh you know, I I wish everybody had a Jessica
in their life, because every time I don't understand something
(02:32):
in the news, I will text Jessica and go, Okay,
what is happening? Like is this really gonna go forward?
Like are we as a doomsdays at the apocalypse? Is
it World War three? And you always have such a
calm way of giving facts, and I think that's probably
been the biggest success of News Not Noise, right, is
like news feels overwhelming, and so talk to us about
(02:57):
your decision to start News not Noise. I got into
it for a reason that you'll really understand. I spent
a lot of my time as a political reporter interviewing
swing voters, people and undecided voters, people who late in
the election still didn't know how they'd vote. Overwhelmingly they
were women. And my boss is back at home, you know,
(03:20):
the headquarters for news would say those are people who
don't care very much, or they're not engaged, or they
just politics doesn't interest them and they're not our audience.
And I'd be out there interviewing them and they cared enormously.
There'd be these moms who'd show me all the articles
they've clipped, but they'd say, I can't listen to the news.
They're screaming at me. It makes me crazy. I never
know what to do out of it. And I realized
(03:42):
it wasn't the information itself that turns these people off.
It was the way we shared the information, literally, the
way we talked. And I was like, what if we
re engineered that? What if we instead of panicking people
and making conflict the focus of the news, think about
how do I empower you to understand and know so
that you're confident enough to make a decision to pick
(04:05):
up an article on this to engage again. And that
was my initial idea that made me launch. Then I
tried selling it everywhere and people are like, oh, no,
nobody will want that, So I had to try it
on my own. But what you know, that's what I
like about our industry today is as content creators, you
don't need to go through the normal paradigms anymore. Anybody
(04:26):
can get information out, anybody can be a content creator,
and that's good and bad, right, because then you have this,
you know, fake news, you know, using these platforms to
spew misinformation, and that's also tricky. Well, the problem, the challenge,
I should say, is that you know, how do you
find sources you trust? Right? And so I always tell
(04:46):
people do your own research, but go to experts who
actually know something when you're doing that research, and and
it's really hard for people who don't. Like I spend
my whole day doing this, So when the Federal Reserve
announces that they're raising interest rates, I immediately know what
that means. I know where to go to look up
like implications. Who's smart on this? I learned it on COVID.
(05:08):
I learned, you know, you learned because that's what I do.
But somebody who's busy having their own job and being
a parent or whatever, they don't know who the experts are.
So part of what I see my job as is
pointing people also to reliable sources. Yeah, and that's important
because I think there are good outlets out there that
are non biased and they just have the information. But
(05:30):
I think it's just so overwhelming right now, the news
is very overwhelming because of this cycle. And I don't
know if you watch the news news lately, but like
it's always there's the scroll on the bottom, there's always
breaking news and it's just something he just said. And
so I feel like we have a social responsibility to
stay informed, but it's hard to do that when we're
(05:54):
being you know, jammed with anxiety and and death doom news.
You know, it's like even even when it rains in California,
it's like Doppler tweet three thousand and you're like Doppler
three thousand, what happened to one and two? Like what? What?
Like totally everything is positioned as um giving us a
(06:17):
panic attack. So what do you what do you think
has happened to the news in our habits over the
last decade. I think the news, especially TV news, competes
for your anxiety. It is designed as a business to
get eyeballs that way. And what I think is important
to say is that was a choice. Right, Like, there's
a business model. The business model says we have to
(06:39):
generate as much watch time as possible from as many people,
and the way to do that they decided is by
focusing on conflict, which means triggering your panic, your outrage,
your rage, you know, negativity, partisanship, all of that stuff.
And the business leaders decided that's the way we're gonna
get ratings. And the thing that you talked about, which
(07:03):
is like I had to turn it off, that's not
just a preference. Neuroscience actually shows that the way we
do it a shuts down learning. Like all that negativity,
all that outrage, rage, at some point your brain goes, no,
I'm not learning, and the extreme exposure to tragedy endlessly
(07:25):
strips you of a feeling of agency. It means like
I'm too close, I can't do anything. And so what
you did by taking some distance is a very healthy
response to get balance and separate yourself from this news
story so that you can come back energize and recharged
to witness as an engaged bystander or witness and take action.
(07:49):
So what I'd say, like as the bigger picture thought,
is literally the way we do this news disengages people,
makes them less ready to take part and do something.
But how connected should we be then, like you know,
is it like sure intensely listen to the news during
elections and then turn it off for a couple of months,
(08:11):
or do you think we should have daily doses of it?
Like how should we be connected to the news. So
I advise a news diet. My news diet is this
is where people who want every day. You know, I'll
give a different one for people who want sometimes. But
I say, first, turn off your notifications. I'm a reporter.
I need to know the minute things happen. You don't
(08:32):
right if you find out five hours later that President
Biden made some announcement is going to be fine. So
you don't need something blasting your you know, in your
face in the middle of your day. Turn off your
notifications in advance. Pick times of day you check the news,
and discipline yourself to not check other times. Decide in
(08:53):
advance what are the sources you go to, and how
much time you'll spend, so that you give yourself that
ten minutes and you go to your three places and
that's it in a day, right at noon or and
then maybe at six pm. You go longer. But that
prevents you from going down those Twitter rabbit holes where
all of a sudden you're reading about World War three
from some blogger you've never heard of, and you have
(09:15):
to crawl into bed right. And then the last thing
I say is if you feel like it's caught you,
that feeling like it's got you, you're like panicked a
little bit. Literally, put your phone down, close your eyes,
remind yourself that's the news and this is me, and
create that mote, that little gap that's not not caring
(09:36):
that has actually been proven to be essential for you
to take action in the world. Yeah, that I did
that with social media, Like I was like always on
my phone and I now I've allocated time, like I'm
going to check Instagram at this time and emails, like
I have so many emails and I'm always you know,
returning emails, and I'm like, I'm going to return emails
(09:56):
during this time, Like you have to really do feel better. Yes,
I think it's like a good idea to do the
news diet. And it's basic mindfulness, you know, noticing when
you're on there too much, noticing when your heart rate
is going, and telling yourself, I need to put this
down now, I need to not be doing this right now,
(10:19):
and and remind yourself it's not not caring, it's just
giving yourself the recovery time you need to engage again.
Do you think news outlets aren't paying attention to the
stress that they're causing, like because they continue to deliver
the news in this way as opposed to framing it differently,
(10:42):
like let's let's get away from opinion news and let's
like is it is it just about ratings? Yeah? I
mean I wish I could say otherwise, And individually there
are leaders who think differently. These places are filled with idealistic, responsible,
well intentioned report orders. There are some who aren't, but
(11:02):
you know, in general and for the most part, and
they work in a system that says, this is what
success looks like, and this is what you know survival
looks like. And so they have you know, it's about
making these choices for themselves every day. But I will
say I think the thing they're missing, and this is
(11:23):
what you know in Hollywood is that you can also
win an audience through compassion and curiosity and triggering awe right,
Those things also make people watch and those are much
more positive. And I would also say feminine and generative
sort of intentions and motivations, and they lead people to
(11:46):
less division, more connection, and less feeling of helplessness, more
feeling like, hey, I can do something, let me try. Yeah. Well,
speaking of you know, it's a more feminine approach. Like
you've talked a lot about how women relate to the
news differently, and that a lot of the news out
there doesn't really have a female audience in mind, although
(12:06):
we do watch right, So what are your thoughts about that,
about how women relate differently. I'll tell you one of
my favorite stories. You know, I'm when I'm doing this,
I survey audiences and do many focus groups, and one
I kept hearing when I was interviewing women about how
they feel about the news, they hated it makes them
feel awful, and I'm like, is it the information? They're like, no,
I want the information, it's just something about the news.
(12:29):
And people kept saying, I'd ask what you watch, and
some people kept saying they watch the Crime Channel women,
and it's like, well, this makes no sense. Why she
like turning away to watch murders. And somebody said to me, well,
at the end of every show there's a resolution. I
know who did it, I know what's happening to them,
I know how it comes together. And she's like, you guys,
(12:53):
do these panel discussions, scream about the end of the world,
scream about the end of democracy, and then we're going
on a commercial and she's like, I don't have any idea,
like where do we go from here? What's next? What
can I do? Is anyone doing anything? And that really
taught me to think about how we communicate differently and
(13:13):
to give people a sort of button here's what's next,
or here are the people working on it, or here's
who's here are the helpers? Right? Give people a place
to land so they feel okay, and that makes it
easier to engage with These are like small changes that
(13:34):
really change the experience for women in particular. Men you
can have like a debate and their brain will still
stay super engaged. Women want to know, like what's the
information of what are we doing about it? Right? Like
we're coopers, let's get it done. And so the news
is directed towards that other way, which is like the
debate situation, and women overwhelmingly want it communicated much more calmly,
(13:56):
much more clearly, and with like an action step kind
of proposal. It turns out that so do most millennials
and Gen zs, and it's really older dudes who like
the news the way it is. Oh yeah, yeah, but
I do. I mean, look, I loved those crime shows too,
and I hated when they go and this person has
(14:17):
never been caught, like what always good? Wasted an hour
and he's still out there. We can't promise justice, right um,
But yeah, I mean I do like feeling informed and
calm and educated, Like I do want to come out
of the news with a different feeling other than anxiety,
(14:39):
just like you know, like I know something now. Before
I didn't know this thing. Now I know the thing.
Yeah that's a good outcome. Yeah yeah, I also think
you know, news overload. You've talked a lot about that
about you know, especially for women. Right, so we have
the news in our life, like I've got to you know,
take my kids to school, i might gotta take care
of my older mother. I've got to make dinner, I've
(15:01):
got to do the grocery shopping, and I have to
make the health decisions in my household. I have to
make the financial Like there isn't such thing as news overload.
Like somebody said this the other day. They said, capitalism
in America is set up to where we have to
work so hard to survive, and that's structured in that
way so that you're not paying attention to what's happening
(15:22):
politically environmentally, Like I don't have time. I'm trying to
take my kid to school. I gotta work two jobs,
I gotta get home, and you want me to recycle
my plastic bottle, Like if I can't do it, I can't.
I can't do one more thing. Like women, we can't
shoulder one more thing. We are maxed out at work,
we are maxed out at home, we are maxed out
in society. So like hearing disturbing news takes a toll
(15:43):
on our psyches. No, yes, and that is why it
is important to create that balance you're talking about, right,
So part of it is disciplining yourself and saying tonight,
I just can't take it in. But I also go
back to this finding. I keep discovering that no matter
how busy women are, no matter how much is going on,
they're okay getting the information if it's said in a
(16:05):
way that feels digestible, like I can grab it and
know it. It's the communication isn't triggering and overwhelming. One
thing I have started to do. I started this like
during the Kavanaugh hearings. I did it during your COVID
in Ukraine war coverage. Is when there's really upsetting news,
like I know it's going to be traumatic, I put
(16:25):
a huge trigger warning over it, and I say, like,
here's what's coming. If you want to know, tap, if
you don't, you can move on, so that you give
people that moment to choose. Right, I'm opting in, and
then that creates that mindfulness. And I just think knowing
that you're choosing to see this prepares you for the
(16:45):
trauma that you might see, and that makes it a
different experience. TV news won't do that for you. You
have to do it for yourself. Right, you have to
decide today's a day. I can't take it and it's
too much and I'm not going to look read your
news those days. Is to give yourself a break, do
you think? I mean, can news outlets work to heal
(17:07):
the divide in our country? Do they want to do that?
Or they incentivized to keep our country divided and to
keep us in our individual bubbles, right, Like I'm in
the left liberal bubble and others are in that other bubble,
and so you're only getting regurgitated stuff in your own
little bubble. But like, shouldn't news outlets work to heal
(17:28):
the country? Do they feel like that's not their responsibility?
It's such an important and big question, right, I think
that individually, people getting jobs and they have to deliver. Right,
you're working for corporation. The corporation expects you to deliver
certain ratings and profits. You got to do that as
the heads of these organizations, Right, Do they want to
(17:48):
raise their kids in a world that's so polarized? No,
So they also have that conflict where they want to
do better. Right. This show is about connections, and one
of the things I think we don't talk enough about
in news is how we model conversation. I believe feeds
our polarization. I'll give you example. So a lot of
people tuned in got engaged for the first time politically
(18:11):
during the Trump years. Right, And what did you see?
You saw people on panels yelling at each other. Right,
And you saw outrage. And so politics means ferocious disagreement
and caring means going instantly to outrage. And so everybody
who was like made awake at that moment. Now I
(18:33):
noticed this in my own d M s and stuff.
People are so aggro they immediately go to a ten
on a scale of one to ten. They were instantly outraged.
Like one day I posted on the White House cat.
On a day I posted a lot of other things,
but the White House I got a new cat. It
was like a funny feature story. I got these outraged
d M saying like, how could you post about the
White House cat? On a day? This and such happened
(18:54):
and it was not a time of war. That was
like very little news. You're like, seriously, who cares? Are
you so outraged all the time? And So I think
one very easy change shift the news could make is
using those panels. We can talk about whether we really
need them that much, but if you're doing them to
also model consensus, where do we agree. You're a democrat,
(19:18):
I'm a Republican. Let's start with what we agree about
and show that there are times we all can work
together no matter what your other differences are. That's the connection.
Like the news says we're polarized, but they're also making
us polarized by modeling that. Well, that's my My question is, like,
do you think it's impossible for these news outlets to
deliver unbiased news? Okay, So I have a specific point
(19:40):
of view in that, like, I think we are all biased.
There's nobody who comes to a conversation without bias, and
so I would like to shift, like my dream would
be to shift the conversation away from is there bias too?
Are you upfront about your come from? Right? And do
we know where you're you know, princes lie right, and
(20:03):
even people like let's put aside Fox News and organizations
that have hosts who disseminate disinformation. Right, let's talk about
real reporters. Um, real reporters will have bias, but they
also work very hard to represent other points of view, right.
So I think the problem is less about having bias.
(20:26):
I think it's about separating what is factual reporting from
your opinion stuff you know, the newspaper does that well,
TV news doesn't, and letting people know you're come from.
I'm a mom of four. I care a lot about
gun safety because my kids are in public school and
are in school drills, and here's the story about gun violence.
I think that might not be a bad way to
(20:47):
approach this, or think about approaching it, because I don't
know how you get rid of all bias. I do
think it's important to separate out the opinion section from
the straight ahead reporting section. Yeah, I mean I think
that's also tied to like, you know, how do you
think the industry can change? And you've said before like
the news has a duty to explain what's happening in
(21:10):
the world, not trigger us, right, But explanatory journalism is
not super popular like in TV news at least. It's
what's funny is it's super popular online where in digital
where you opt into what you want, but environments where
they're gatekeepers, right, producers who decide they want breaking news happening.
(21:30):
Now this just in because that's when you're flipping the channels.
That's what's going to make you stop and pay attention.
Right then, now you're asking can that change? I really
think it naturally is changing as our distribution models change, right,
Like you're not trying to capture somebody who's CouchSurfing as
much anymore. You want somebody on their mobile phone, and
(21:51):
soon you'll want people in the metaverse and whatever it
is next. And as we go into these more specialized
I opt in environments, we can do more of what
you and I are talking about because people want it
well speaking of opting in though, what is your take
on this on fake news? Because a lot of people
(22:11):
are opting in on fake news, A lot of people
are following sites and Twitter handles and influencers that are
just not factual. I know, it's terrible problem. I think
the platforms have an intense obligation to do a lot more.
I think Twitter has worked hard on it. One thing
(22:32):
I will say is that when the war in Ukraine started,
Twitter cleaned out a lot of what everybody seems to
Russian bought farms, and Twitter got a lot better. Like
there's more conversation, there's more expert people sharing knowledge, and
not as much fighting, fighting and angry spats. But that
wasn't that an easy thing to do? Why didn't they
(22:53):
do that before? That seems like an easy thing to do,
knowing what when something's a bot, it's a great question
because it really affected that election. I mean, and that's
Twitter that's done the good job. So what about all
the others. So one of my thoughts on disinformation is
it's important to train kids as they're coming up how
to check sources. This idea of lateral reading. If you
(23:16):
see something you're not sure if it's true, Google and
see if a lot of other places that you trust
are talking about it. If not, be skeptical at some point,
you know, people who want to be bought into that,
There's not a lot you can do, right. I've talked
to a lot of psychologists in this space and they say,
you engage them with questions. Don't tell them they're wrong,
don't shame them, call them stupid. You just ask open
(23:39):
ended questions that they could walk away with and start.
Maybe they'll turn them over in their head. But at
a certain point, if they want to buy into this stuff,
every time you argue that it's not true and here's
four articles proving it, they think you're part of the
deep state conspiracy and you're like in the illuminate whatever
it is. So focus on what you can affect, right, Well,
(24:01):
that's my last question for you, as like, as consumers
of news, is there something we can do? I mean,
you know the old way would be boycott a channel
right until they change as consumers of this ship show
of news. So like, what can we do? There are
(24:22):
a couple of things. One is paused before sharing information, right,
So that's a good one. Stop retweeting stupid ship. Yes,
that's a better way to say it, Like if you
don't know some dude who's posting some somebody sent me
something from a guy who said Putin's family isn't hiding somewhere.
But this is based on an unreliable source. Does anyone
have more information? And I'm like, why are you sharing this?
(24:43):
It's based on an unreliable source. You don't need to like,
so I think pause before you share if it's from
somebody you know and trust, like an outlet that you followed. Okay, um, separately,
pay for journalism. Okay, these newspapers are doing God's work, right,
these people, I really think so. Sometimes you can be
(25:05):
upset at them, but especially the newspapers. If the Washington
Post wants ten dollars from you, give it to them, right,
if you can afford it, support journalism, don't look for
the work around, because people need to make a living
in this business for it to survive. If you're not
paying for it, you're the product, right, And I do
think that letting the people who run these networks know
(25:27):
that you don't like what they're doing does make a difference.
It adds up. Right, you can tweet it, you can
support organizations that are trying to correct them. I always
thought a smart thing to do is there are these
what do you call mutual funds that are major shareholders
and the corporations that are invested in these news ords.
Can't you have a movement of shareholders, regular people using
(25:50):
those mutual funds to have a voice at the shareholders
meetings to say we don't like what's going on. Give
us more facts and less opinion, like people's voices. The
last thing I'd say, Eva is it is true there
is one private business that is protected in the U. S. Constitution,
and it is the media, the free press. And that's
(26:12):
because the founders of this country believed that the free
press is essential to educate voters in a democracy so
they can make informed decisions. So it is foundational to
how this country is built. It is vital that it
works well, and it works best if we're voting with
(26:32):
our eyeballs, letting them know how we feel, and finding
the voices we trust, amplifying them and supporting them so
that our media is doing the best work it can. Yeah,
you know, I'll say the only reason I even came
back to listening to news was was your channel think
this was the only thing I could bear to swallow.
(26:53):
And I was like, Okay, that's the facts. And I'm
a reader, and I'm I'm a ferocious sumer of news
and content and I read a lot, and so for me,
it was a matter of curating what I was digesting.
I also don't like to read news first thing in
the morning, like it just puts me off. I get that,
(27:15):
you know, I think it's important to have mindfulness practices
and stay engaged in the world. There's some people who say,
you know, check out, but you don't believe that. I
don't believe that in your voice makes such a difference.
It's like it's vital that you are engaged and knowledgeable
because you really move the needle. So it's about finding
(27:37):
the strategies for you that make it swallow able, right, Like,
how can you do your days you're watching the news
and feel stable? Yeah, well, I will say everybody listening
to this podcast, News Not Noise Jessica Yellen on Instagram
is really one of the best resources. And you do
you list a lot so can they find you? And
you'll list some credible other sources. If you check out
(27:59):
my store Rea's it's all articles I drive out to
Washington Post or whoever I think is doing a really
good job on a specific story, and those are the
places that I find credible as a journalist who's worked
with those journalists. And so I'm trying to expose the
audience to hear some trusted the help. I ask everybody
on the show, what's there? What's a book everybody must read? It? Does?
(28:21):
It could be yours, it could be anything. This might
be a little unexpected from me. But the book that's
helped me through the news more than anything is called
The Untethered Soul. And it's the one book that helped
me understand how to actually be mindful, how to meditate,
how to be present with myself so that I could
(28:42):
go back into whatever terrible news might be out there
and still feel grounded in who I am. It's so accessible,
so helpful. I really love that book. I also, I
thought you were going to say a Seat of the
Soul like Gary Zukov, because I love that one, and
that one's like, you know, Oprah found him a hundred
years ago. But I remember this Untethered Soul. It's oh,
(29:03):
it's an old book, right, old book. I had this
crazy experience one week where a stranger at a coffee
shot came up to me and he's like, I don't
know why, but something told me you should read The
Untethered Soul. And then I went to the gym and
on the mat next to me, a man was stretching
next to me. He looked up and he said, you
should read The Untethered Soul. And then a friend said
it and I'm like, what is happening. Obviously have to
(29:25):
read this book and it's what got me into mindfulness
as years ago, but it's been so bad. It's about, yeah,
freeing yourself from limitations. It's um. It has a lot
of profound answers. This one I like, I remember this
one and I read it a long time ago. Well,
thank you so much, Jessica for being on my podcast.
(29:47):
That what an honor. Thank you for having me really
a treat. Thank you so much for listening. I'm happy
to be connected with you. Connections with Even Lamoria is
production of Unbelievable Entertainment in partnership with I Hearts Michael
Burah podcast Network. For more podcasts from I Heart, visit
(30:08):
the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows,
Hello, and welcome back to Connections. I'm Eva Longoria and
today's episode is all about our connection to the news.
I don't know about you guys, but after the Trump administration,
I had to put my head in the sand and
turn off the news. I was addicted to this seven
(00:22):
cycle of breaking news, and I had to watch everything
and listen to everything. I would have it on when
I would get up in the morning, I would get
into my car. It was what I listened to on streaming.
I would get out of the car, I would listen
to the podcast, and then I would get home and
it was it was just like the cycle. And I
realized I was having so much anxiety about it that
then I turned it off and and I haven't really
(00:43):
gone back to it. And then I found this amazing
human being who does news not noise, Jessica Yellen, and
I said, Okay, this I can digest. I just want
the facts. I just want to know what's happening in
the world. I don't want opinion news. I don't want
your opinion on it. I don't even know my own
(01:04):
opinion on it, so I can't get fed your opinion
on it. But I just think when it comes to
current news and how it's changed to the last couple
of years, and and then watching all those Roger Ales
show there was like a movie and then there was
a series, and I was like, Oh my gosh, how
society's relationship with the news has changed, and how we
have been manipulated in a way to be addicted to
(01:28):
a seven news cycle. And so I wanted to explore this,
like what should our connection be to the news? I mean,
is it our civic duty to pay attention? Or do
we protect our mental health, which is what I had chosen.
But I do think there's a balance, and so I'm
eager to get into this conversation with the amazing Jessica Yelling.
Jessica is the founder of News Not Noise. It's an
(01:50):
independent news outlet with the slogan we think the news
should give you information and not a panic attack. She's
been working in the news media for over two decades
as a reporter and a chief White House correspondent at ABC, MSNBC, CNN.
She's also the author of the novel Savage News, which,
(02:10):
by the way, I've optioned we're making into a TV
show because it's so good. So she knows a thing
or two about the news industry, and I'm excited to
talk to about how we should connect to the news.
So welcome to the show, Jessica Eva. Thank you, what
an amazing introduction. I'm so happy to be on with you.
Oh you know, I I wish everybody had a Jessica
in their life, because every time I don't understand something
(02:32):
in the news, I will text Jessica and go, Okay,
what is happening? Like is this really gonna go forward?
Like are we as a doomsdays at the apocalypse? Is
it World War three? And you always have such a
calm way of giving facts, and I think that's probably
been the biggest success of News Not Noise, right, is
like news feels overwhelming, and so talk to us about
(02:57):
your decision to start News not Noise. I got into
it for a reason that you'll really understand. I spent
a lot of my time as a political reporter interviewing
swing voters, people and undecided voters, people who late in
the election still didn't know how they'd vote. Overwhelmingly they
were women. And my boss is back at home, you know,
(03:20):
the headquarters for news would say those are people who
don't care very much, or they're not engaged, or they
just politics doesn't interest them and they're not our audience.
And I'd be out there interviewing them and they cared enormously.
There'd be these moms who'd show me all the articles
they've clipped, but they'd say, I can't listen to the news.
They're screaming at me. It makes me crazy. I never
know what to do out of it. And I realized
(03:42):
it wasn't the information itself that turns these people off.
It was the way we shared the information, literally, the
way we talked. And I was like, what if we
re engineered that? What if we instead of panicking people
and making conflict the focus of the news, think about
how do I empower you to understand and know so
that you're confident enough to make a decision to pick
(04:05):
up an article on this to engage again. And that
was my initial idea that made me launch. Then I
tried selling it everywhere and people are like, oh, no,
nobody will want that, So I had to try it
on my own. But what you know, that's what I
like about our industry today is as content creators, you
don't need to go through the normal paradigms anymore. Anybody
(04:26):
can get information out, anybody can be a content creator,
and that's good and bad, right, because then you have this,
you know, fake news, you know, using these platforms to
spew misinformation, and that's also tricky. Well, the problem, the challenge,
I should say, is that you know, how do you
find sources you trust? Right? And so I always tell
(04:46):
people do your own research, but go to experts who
actually know something when you're doing that research, and and
it's really hard for people who don't. Like I spend
my whole day doing this, So when the Federal Reserve
announces that they're raising interest rates, I immediately know what
that means. I know where to go to look up
like implications. Who's smart on this? I learned it on COVID.
(05:08):
I learned, you know, you learned because that's what I do.
But somebody who's busy having their own job and being
a parent or whatever, they don't know who the experts are.
So part of what I see my job as is
pointing people also to reliable sources. Yeah, and that's important
because I think there are good outlets out there that
are non biased and they just have the information. But
(05:30):
I think it's just so overwhelming right now, the news
is very overwhelming because of this cycle. And I don't
know if you watch the news news lately, but like
it's always there's the scroll on the bottom, there's always
breaking news and it's just something he just said. And
so I feel like we have a social responsibility to
stay informed, but it's hard to do that when we're
(05:54):
being you know, jammed with anxiety and and death doom news.
You know, it's like even even when it rains in California,
it's like Doppler tweet three thousand and you're like Doppler
three thousand, what happened to one and two? Like what? What?
Like totally everything is positioned as um giving us a
(06:17):
panic attack. So what do you what do you think
has happened to the news in our habits over the
last decade. I think the news, especially TV news, competes
for your anxiety. It is designed as a business to
get eyeballs that way. And what I think is important
to say is that was a choice. Right, Like, there's
a business model. The business model says we have to
(06:39):
generate as much watch time as possible from as many people,
and the way to do that they decided is by
focusing on conflict, which means triggering your panic, your outrage,
your rage, you know, negativity, partisanship, all of that stuff.
And the business leaders decided that's the way we're gonna
get ratings. And the thing that you talked about, which
(07:03):
is like I had to turn it off, that's not
just a preference. Neuroscience actually shows that the way we
do it a shuts down learning. Like all that negativity,
all that outrage, rage, at some point your brain goes, no,
I'm not learning, and the extreme exposure to tragedy endlessly
(07:25):
strips you of a feeling of agency. It means like
I'm too close, I can't do anything. And so what
you did by taking some distance is a very healthy
response to get balance and separate yourself from this news
story so that you can come back energize and recharged
to witness as an engaged bystander or witness and take action.
(07:49):
So what I'd say, like as the bigger picture thought,
is literally the way we do this news disengages people,
makes them less ready to take part and do something.
But how connected should we be then, like you know,
is it like sure intensely listen to the news during
elections and then turn it off for a couple of months,
(08:11):
or do you think we should have daily doses of it?
Like how should we be connected to the news. So
I advise a news diet. My news diet is this
is where people who want every day. You know, I'll
give a different one for people who want sometimes. But
I say, first, turn off your notifications. I'm a reporter.
I need to know the minute things happen. You don't
(08:32):
right if you find out five hours later that President
Biden made some announcement is going to be fine. So
you don't need something blasting your you know, in your
face in the middle of your day. Turn off your
notifications in advance. Pick times of day you check the news,
and discipline yourself to not check other times. Decide in
(08:53):
advance what are the sources you go to, and how
much time you'll spend, so that you give yourself that
ten minutes and you go to your three places and
that's it in a day, right at noon or and
then maybe at six pm. You go longer. But that
prevents you from going down those Twitter rabbit holes where
all of a sudden you're reading about World War three
from some blogger you've never heard of, and you have
(09:15):
to crawl into bed right. And then the last thing
I say is if you feel like it's caught you,
that feeling like it's got you, you're like panicked a
little bit. Literally, put your phone down, close your eyes,
remind yourself that's the news and this is me, and
create that mote, that little gap that's not not caring
(09:36):
that has actually been proven to be essential for you
to take action in the world. Yeah, that I did
that with social media, Like I was like always on
my phone and I now I've allocated time, like I'm
going to check Instagram at this time and emails, like
I have so many emails and I'm always you know,
returning emails, and I'm like, I'm going to return emails
(09:56):
during this time, Like you have to really do feel better. Yes,
I think it's like a good idea to do the
news diet. And it's basic mindfulness, you know, noticing when
you're on there too much, noticing when your heart rate
is going, and telling yourself, I need to put this
down now, I need to not be doing this right now,
(10:19):
and and remind yourself it's not not caring, it's just
giving yourself the recovery time you need to engage again.
Do you think news outlets aren't paying attention to the
stress that they're causing, like because they continue to deliver
the news in this way as opposed to framing it differently,
(10:42):
like let's let's get away from opinion news and let's
like is it is it just about ratings? Yeah? I
mean I wish I could say otherwise, And individually there
are leaders who think differently. These places are filled with idealistic, responsible,
well intentioned report orders. There are some who aren't, but
(11:02):
you know, in general and for the most part, and
they work in a system that says, this is what
success looks like, and this is what you know survival
looks like. And so they have you know, it's about
making these choices for themselves every day. But I will
say I think the thing they're missing, and this is
(11:23):
what you know in Hollywood is that you can also
win an audience through compassion and curiosity and triggering awe right,
Those things also make people watch and those are much
more positive. And I would also say feminine and generative
sort of intentions and motivations, and they lead people to
(11:46):
less division, more connection, and less feeling of helplessness, more
feeling like, hey, I can do something, let me try. Yeah. Well,
speaking of you know, it's a more feminine approach. Like
you've talked a lot about how women relate to the
news differently, and that a lot of the news out
there doesn't really have a female audience in mind, although
(12:06):
we do watch right, So what are your thoughts about that,
about how women relate differently. I'll tell you one of
my favorite stories. You know, I'm when I'm doing this,
I survey audiences and do many focus groups, and one
I kept hearing when I was interviewing women about how
they feel about the news, they hated it makes them
feel awful, and I'm like, is it the information? They're like, no,
I want the information, it's just something about the news.
(12:29):
And people kept saying, I'd ask what you watch, and
some people kept saying they watch the Crime Channel women,
and it's like, well, this makes no sense. Why she
like turning away to watch murders. And somebody said to me, well,
at the end of every show there's a resolution. I
know who did it, I know what's happening to them,
I know how it comes together. And she's like, you guys,
(12:53):
do these panel discussions, scream about the end of the world,
scream about the end of democracy, and then we're going
on a commercial and she's like, I don't have any idea,
like where do we go from here? What's next? What
can I do? Is anyone doing anything? And that really
taught me to think about how we communicate differently and
(13:13):
to give people a sort of button here's what's next,
or here are the people working on it, or here's
who's here are the helpers? Right? Give people a place
to land so they feel okay, and that makes it
easier to engage with These are like small changes that
(13:34):
really change the experience for women in particular. Men you
can have like a debate and their brain will still
stay super engaged. Women want to know, like what's the
information of what are we doing about it? Right? Like
we're coopers, let's get it done. And so the news
is directed towards that other way, which is like the
debate situation, and women overwhelmingly want it communicated much more calmly,
(13:56):
much more clearly, and with like an action step kind
of proposal. It turns out that so do most millennials
and Gen zs, and it's really older dudes who like
the news the way it is. Oh yeah, yeah, but
I do. I mean, look, I loved those crime shows too,
and I hated when they go and this person has
(14:17):
never been caught, like what always good? Wasted an hour
and he's still out there. We can't promise justice, right um,
But yeah, I mean I do like feeling informed and
calm and educated, Like I do want to come out
of the news with a different feeling other than anxiety,
(14:39):
just like you know, like I know something now. Before
I didn't know this thing. Now I know the thing.
Yeah that's a good outcome. Yeah yeah, I also think
you know, news overload. You've talked a lot about that
about you know, especially for women. Right, so we have
the news in our life, like I've got to you know,
take my kids to school, i might gotta take care
of my older mother. I've got to make dinner, I've
(15:01):
got to do the grocery shopping, and I have to
make the health decisions in my household. I have to
make the financial Like there isn't such thing as news overload.
Like somebody said this the other day. They said, capitalism
in America is set up to where we have to
work so hard to survive, and that's structured in that
way so that you're not paying attention to what's happening
(15:22):
politically environmentally, Like I don't have time. I'm trying to
take my kid to school. I gotta work two jobs,
I gotta get home, and you want me to recycle
my plastic bottle, Like if I can't do it, I can't.
I can't do one more thing. Like women, we can't
shoulder one more thing. We are maxed out at work,
we are maxed out at home, we are maxed out
in society. So like hearing disturbing news takes a toll
(15:43):
on our psyches. No, yes, and that is why it
is important to create that balance you're talking about, right,
So part of it is disciplining yourself and saying tonight,
I just can't take it in. But I also go
back to this finding. I keep discovering that no matter
how busy women are, no matter how much is going on,
they're okay getting the information if it's said in a
(16:05):
way that feels digestible, like I can grab it and
know it. It's the communication isn't triggering and overwhelming. One
thing I have started to do. I started this like
during the Kavanaugh hearings. I did it during your COVID
in Ukraine war coverage. Is when there's really upsetting news,
like I know it's going to be traumatic, I put
(16:25):
a huge trigger warning over it, and I say, like,
here's what's coming. If you want to know, tap, if
you don't, you can move on, so that you give
people that moment to choose. Right, I'm opting in, and
then that creates that mindfulness. And I just think knowing
that you're choosing to see this prepares you for the
(16:45):
trauma that you might see, and that makes it a
different experience. TV news won't do that for you. You
have to do it for yourself. Right, you have to
decide today's a day. I can't take it and it's
too much and I'm not going to look read your
news those days. Is to give yourself a break, do
you think? I mean, can news outlets work to heal
(17:07):
the divide in our country? Do they want to do that?
Or they incentivized to keep our country divided and to
keep us in our individual bubbles, right, Like I'm in
the left liberal bubble and others are in that other bubble,
and so you're only getting regurgitated stuff in your own
little bubble. But like, shouldn't news outlets work to heal
(17:28):
the country? Do they feel like that's not their responsibility?
It's such an important and big question, right, I think
that individually, people getting jobs and they have to deliver. Right,
you're working for corporation. The corporation expects you to deliver
certain ratings and profits. You got to do that as
the heads of these organizations, Right, Do they want to
(17:48):
raise their kids in a world that's so polarized? No,
So they also have that conflict where they want to
do better. Right. This show is about connections, and one
of the things I think we don't talk enough about
in news is how we model conversation. I believe feeds
our polarization. I'll give you example. So a lot of
people tuned in got engaged for the first time politically
(18:11):
during the Trump years. Right, And what did you see?
You saw people on panels yelling at each other. Right,
And you saw outrage. And so politics means ferocious disagreement
and caring means going instantly to outrage. And so everybody
who was like made awake at that moment. Now I
(18:33):
noticed this in my own d M s and stuff.
People are so aggro they immediately go to a ten
on a scale of one to ten. They were instantly outraged.
Like one day I posted on the White House cat.
On a day I posted a lot of other things,
but the White House I got a new cat. It
was like a funny feature story. I got these outraged
d M saying like, how could you post about the
White House cat? On a day? This and such happened
(18:54):
and it was not a time of war. That was
like very little news. You're like, seriously, who cares? Are
you so outraged all the time? And So I think
one very easy change shift the news could make is
using those panels. We can talk about whether we really
need them that much, but if you're doing them to
also model consensus, where do we agree. You're a democrat,
(19:18):
I'm a Republican. Let's start with what we agree about
and show that there are times we all can work
together no matter what your other differences are. That's the connection.
Like the news says we're polarized, but they're also making
us polarized by modeling that. Well, that's my My question is, like,
do you think it's impossible for these news outlets to
deliver unbiased news? Okay, So I have a specific point
(19:40):
of view in that, like, I think we are all biased.
There's nobody who comes to a conversation without bias, and
so I would like to shift, like my dream would
be to shift the conversation away from is there bias too?
Are you upfront about your come from? Right? And do
we know where you're you know, princes lie right, and
(20:03):
even people like let's put aside Fox News and organizations
that have hosts who disseminate disinformation. Right, let's talk about
real reporters. Um, real reporters will have bias, but they
also work very hard to represent other points of view, right.
So I think the problem is less about having bias.
(20:26):
I think it's about separating what is factual reporting from
your opinion stuff you know, the newspaper does that well,
TV news doesn't, and letting people know you're come from.
I'm a mom of four. I care a lot about
gun safety because my kids are in public school and
are in school drills, and here's the story about gun violence.
I think that might not be a bad way to
(20:47):
approach this, or think about approaching it, because I don't
know how you get rid of all bias. I do
think it's important to separate out the opinion section from
the straight ahead reporting section. Yeah, I mean I think
that's also tied to like, you know, how do you
think the industry can change? And you've said before like
the news has a duty to explain what's happening in
(21:10):
the world, not trigger us, right, But explanatory journalism is
not super popular like in TV news at least. It's
what's funny is it's super popular online where in digital
where you opt into what you want, but environments where
they're gatekeepers, right, producers who decide they want breaking news happening.
(21:30):
Now this just in because that's when you're flipping the channels.
That's what's going to make you stop and pay attention.
Right then, now you're asking can that change? I really
think it naturally is changing as our distribution models change, right,
Like you're not trying to capture somebody who's CouchSurfing as
much anymore. You want somebody on their mobile phone, and
(21:51):
soon you'll want people in the metaverse and whatever it
is next. And as we go into these more specialized
I opt in environments, we can do more of what
you and I are talking about because people want it
well speaking of opting in though, what is your take
on this on fake news? Because a lot of people
(22:11):
are opting in on fake news, A lot of people
are following sites and Twitter handles and influencers that are
just not factual. I know, it's terrible problem. I think
the platforms have an intense obligation to do a lot more.
I think Twitter has worked hard on it. One thing
(22:32):
I will say is that when the war in Ukraine started,
Twitter cleaned out a lot of what everybody seems to
Russian bought farms, and Twitter got a lot better. Like
there's more conversation, there's more expert people sharing knowledge, and
not as much fighting, fighting and angry spats. But that
wasn't that an easy thing to do? Why didn't they
(22:53):
do that before? That seems like an easy thing to do,
knowing what when something's a bot, it's a great question
because it really affected that election. I mean, and that's
Twitter that's done the good job. So what about all
the others. So one of my thoughts on disinformation is
it's important to train kids as they're coming up how
to check sources. This idea of lateral reading. If you
(23:16):
see something you're not sure if it's true, Google and
see if a lot of other places that you trust
are talking about it. If not, be skeptical at some point,
you know, people who want to be bought into that,
There's not a lot you can do, right. I've talked
to a lot of psychologists in this space and they say,
you engage them with questions. Don't tell them they're wrong,
don't shame them, call them stupid. You just ask open
(23:39):
ended questions that they could walk away with and start.
Maybe they'll turn them over in their head. But at
a certain point, if they want to buy into this stuff,
every time you argue that it's not true and here's
four articles proving it, they think you're part of the
deep state conspiracy and you're like in the illuminate whatever
it is. So focus on what you can affect, right, Well,
(24:01):
that's my last question for you, as like, as consumers
of news, is there something we can do? I mean,
you know the old way would be boycott a channel
right until they change as consumers of this ship show
of news. So like, what can we do? There are
(24:22):
a couple of things. One is paused before sharing information, right,
So that's a good one. Stop retweeting stupid ship. Yes,
that's a better way to say it, Like if you
don't know some dude who's posting some somebody sent me
something from a guy who said Putin's family isn't hiding somewhere.
But this is based on an unreliable source. Does anyone
have more information? And I'm like, why are you sharing this?
(24:43):
It's based on an unreliable source. You don't need to like,
so I think pause before you share if it's from
somebody you know and trust, like an outlet that you followed. Okay, um, separately,
pay for journalism. Okay, these newspapers are doing God's work, right,
these people, I really think so. Sometimes you can be
(25:05):
upset at them, but especially the newspapers. If the Washington
Post wants ten dollars from you, give it to them, right,
if you can afford it, support journalism, don't look for
the work around, because people need to make a living
in this business for it to survive. If you're not
paying for it, you're the product, right, And I do
think that letting the people who run these networks know
(25:27):
that you don't like what they're doing does make a difference.
It adds up. Right, you can tweet it, you can
support organizations that are trying to correct them. I always
thought a smart thing to do is there are these
what do you call mutual funds that are major shareholders
and the corporations that are invested in these news ords.
Can't you have a movement of shareholders, regular people using
(25:50):
those mutual funds to have a voice at the shareholders
meetings to say we don't like what's going on. Give
us more facts and less opinion, like people's voices. The
last thing I'd say, Eva is it is true there
is one private business that is protected in the U. S. Constitution,
and it is the media, the free press. And that's
(26:12):
because the founders of this country believed that the free
press is essential to educate voters in a democracy so
they can make informed decisions. So it is foundational to
how this country is built. It is vital that it
works well, and it works best if we're voting with
(26:32):
our eyeballs, letting them know how we feel, and finding
the voices we trust, amplifying them and supporting them so
that our media is doing the best work it can. Yeah,
you know, I'll say the only reason I even came
back to listening to news was was your channel think
this was the only thing I could bear to swallow.
(26:53):
And I was like, Okay, that's the facts. And I'm
a reader, and I'm I'm a ferocious sumer of news
and content and I read a lot, and so for me,
it was a matter of curating what I was digesting.
I also don't like to read news first thing in
the morning, like it just puts me off. I get that,
(27:15):
you know, I think it's important to have mindfulness practices
and stay engaged in the world. There's some people who say,
you know, check out, but you don't believe that. I
don't believe that in your voice makes such a difference.
It's like it's vital that you are engaged and knowledgeable
because you really move the needle. So it's about finding
(27:37):
the strategies for you that make it swallow able, right, Like,
how can you do your days you're watching the news
and feel stable? Yeah, well, I will say everybody listening
to this podcast, News Not Noise Jessica Yellen on Instagram
is really one of the best resources. And you do
you list a lot so can they find you? And
you'll list some credible other sources. If you check out
(27:59):
my store Rea's it's all articles I drive out to
Washington Post or whoever I think is doing a really
good job on a specific story, and those are the
places that I find credible as a journalist who's worked
with those journalists. And so I'm trying to expose the
audience to hear some trusted the help. I ask everybody
on the show, what's there? What's a book everybody must read? It? Does?
(28:21):
It could be yours, it could be anything. This might
be a little unexpected from me. But the book that's
helped me through the news more than anything is called
The Untethered Soul. And it's the one book that helped
me understand how to actually be mindful, how to meditate,
how to be present with myself so that I could
(28:42):
go back into whatever terrible news might be out there
and still feel grounded in who I am. It's so accessible,
so helpful. I really love that book. I also, I
thought you were going to say a Seat of the
Soul like Gary Zukov, because I love that one, and
that one's like, you know, Oprah found him a hundred
years ago. But I remember this Untethered Soul. It's oh,
(29:03):
it's an old book, right, old book. I had this
crazy experience one week where a stranger at a coffee
shot came up to me and he's like, I don't
know why, but something told me you should read The
Untethered Soul. And then I went to the gym and
on the mat next to me, a man was stretching
next to me. He looked up and he said, you
should read The Untethered Soul. And then a friend said
it and I'm like, what is happening. Obviously have to
(29:25):
read this book and it's what got me into mindfulness
as years ago, but it's been so bad. It's about, yeah,
freeing yourself from limitations. It's um. It has a lot
of profound answers. This one I like, I remember this
one and I read it a long time ago. Well,
thank you so much, Jessica for being on my podcast.
(29:47):
That what an honor. Thank you for having me really
a treat. Thank you so much for listening. I'm happy
to be connected with you. Connections with Even Lamoria is
production of Unbelievable Entertainment in partnership with I Hearts Michael
Burah podcast Network. For more podcasts from I Heart, visit
(30:08):
the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows,
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