Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Cool Zone Media.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Hello, and welcome to Cool People who Did Cool Stuff.
You're a weekly reminder that sometimes Margaret has to take
breaks because she's a person and it is an overwhelming
amount of work to research new topics every week, and
sometimes she gets sick and other life things happened all
at once, and so we run reruns sometimes. Sorry for
having interrupted a story in the middle of it last week,
(00:26):
but it's all going to be worth it. But that's
not what you're here to listen to. You're here to
listen to the Jaine Collective this week, and this is
part two of it, and I just want to go
ahead and plug again. Up here at the top, the
National Network of Abortion Funds. If you're wondering where to
donate to, that is a good place that you can
donate to. Also, plancpills dot org is going to have
(00:48):
information about accessing Plan C pills. It's an organization, that's
why it's dot org. It does what it says on
the title on the tin. But Plan C pills are
for medicaid abortions, which are often self managed. And if
you want to know a lot more about self managing,
because the technology for abortion has come a long way
(01:10):
since the jains were working. I'm not trying to put
that down. I mean, as episodes talk about they you know,
we're developing a lot of ideas. But anyway, you can
look up a freezine called how to Do It Anyway
by Hazel Acacia and it's at Tangled Wilderness dot org
and you can print them out or you can order
them in bulk, and you can make it so that
(01:32):
they have a really hard time stopping us from controlling
our bodies. So take care of yourselves, take care of
each other, and enjoy this episode. Hello, and welcome to
Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff. It's a podcast. The
title isn't sarcastic. We actually talk about people we think
are cool and who did things that we also think
(01:54):
are cool. And you know who else is cool is
my guest this week Samantha McVay, who is the host
of Stuff Mom Never told You. And it's not only
my new best friend, but dear listener, she is your
new best friend as well.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Yes, how you doing I'm doing so see, this is
the thing that I've been trying to run with. This
is how I make friends by trying to tell them
I'm cool. So this is perfect. So I'm going to
be on the show about when people with do cool
stuff because I want to be cool like that. That's
how it works, right, and then people want to get
friends with me.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Yeah definitely. Okay, all right, that's what I'm relying on
as well.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Okay, I'm gonna channel this.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Let's go.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Yeah. And we also have Sophie with us, who is
not only the producer of the show, but and the
coolest and it's also basically the Pope of podcasts. Yes,
that's in charge of little podcasts. And much like the Pope,
she decides who lives and who dies.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Yes, And much like the Pope directs, like tells us
what's moral and what's not, even if we don't believe
her half the time.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Totally, and then we just act on whatever Sophie says
instead of actually listening to her own. Sorry, we painted
you into a corner or here.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
I I too like fun hats.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Yeah it is true, it's true, you do.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Yeah, but you know it's not about me.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
Let's go, let's go.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Okay, Okay, So today we're doing part two of our
two part series on the Jaine Collective, who are a
badass crew of underground abortionists in pre Roe v. Wade, Chicago,
And this episode will make approximately zero sense if you
don't go back and listen to part one. So go
listen to part one. We'll wait. Okay, So Jane offering abortions,
(03:36):
no longer reliance on crime guy Nick Mike, but are
doing it themselves Mike Nick, Yeah, Mike nixt Sorry.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
I'm just making sure we have both versions in so yeah,
we are correct, but we did forget the title sexy,
so sexy Mike Nick sexy Nick, Mike right.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Right, totally, Yeah, that is the title of the ye Like, yeah, okay, So,
so Jane is offering abortions for every trimester and this
is like really not how to diy an abortion podcast,
although if those exists, you should go listen to them,
but this is not one of them. And the techniques
I'm going to be talking about are like fifty years
old and are transmitted through me, who is an absolute
(04:15):
lay person who doesn't have a uterus and is completely
grossed up by the idea of the inside of my
own body. Like if I go to a training about
how to apply a tourniquet, I what I do is
I am pretend like I'm not there, and then learn
the information. So just keep all of.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
Them many things, pretend they're not there, and just learn.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Yeah, exactly. But it feels important to me to understand
some of the ways that people have historically and can
temporarily go about ending unwanted pregnancies. For some weird reason,
it just seems like really important right now. It's hard
to say why.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
As a person in Georgia, but many laws of floating
I don't.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Either, Yeah, so it's so weird. Some in the air
I don't know. And one thing I talked to when
I was talking through this show with one of my
friends is a reproductive rights justice activist person all those
words in the proper order. One of the things that
they were pointing out is that it's important not to
present this dark age before Roe v.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Wade.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Legal abortion access matters, and we need to defend that.
But we need to like soberly recognize that people can
and have learned how to take care of not just
their own health, but like on a community level and
on a like a real level, so that people recognize
that they do have real options if we lose Roe v. Wade, right,
(05:39):
so that it's not like your only option is to
go to someone who's really sketchy, because we need to
instead fight to make sure that that doesn't become the case.
So when Jane started, they're mostly doing a style of
abortion called dilation and curetage or a DNC, especially for
first trimester abortions, and what they do is they injected
a local anesthetic and then they scrape the walls of
(06:01):
the uterus with a loop shape instrument called a curette,
and they then provided pills and injections to stop infection
and bleeding. And they recommended a guynecologist or they recommend
it getting a guyological checkup, and if you didn't have one,
they recommended you one. And dn C, at least as
it was performed originally, is a fairly dangerous procedure. It's
(06:22):
not a bad procedure. It's important that people be able
to do this, but it's a It evolves sharp objects
and sensitive areas, and Jane was really fucking good at it.
But it seems like some of the worst ways that
inexperienced abortionists fucked patients up is with DNC, and especially
also with herbal abortions. But we're not going to get
into that on the show, and Jane didn't fuck with
(06:42):
herbal abortions. To my knowledge, DNC is still used today,
although the term is a wider usage now, basically to
include things other than a sharp curet. They like suction curets,
vacuum aspiration as it's sometimes called, where they vacuum things
out instead of scraping them out. But to tell you
about vacuum aspiration, and I get to tell you about
a bunch of other really cool people, Let's go with
(07:04):
people who are complicated who did cool things for some
of these people instead of people who I want to
blanketly tell you are cool. Because Harvey Carmon was not
an MD, some reports claim that he is a psychology doctorate,
so he was technically a doctor. Others claimed that he
just had a master's degree in theater. And while yeah,
(07:26):
that is it is, he might have had both. He
might have later gone back and got a doctor a
degree in psychology. I don't know. Okay, When he was
still a student, he was practicing abortion in California and
one of his patients died and he served two and
a half years in prison for it. And I literally
don't have a means by which to judge whether or
not he was a responsible practitioner who happened to lose
a patient due to the circumstances that he was forced
(07:46):
into by criminalization, or whether he was a sketchy, fucking,
shitty abortionist. I literally don't have a way to at
least my information gathering powers did not answer this. But
he was an innovator, and which really doesn't answer the
question of whether or not he was responsible or ethical,
(08:08):
because just because you want to try new shit doesn't
necessarily make it good. Right.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
It's kind of like when doctors were practicing curing hysteria
on women, and we know what that led to.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Right totally. One time, when he's in jail for practicing abortions,
he invents a new abortion technique which has revolutionized first
trimester abortions and is like largely the reason as far
as I understand that we have, say first trimester abortions. However,
when I say revolutionize and invented, you'll be shocked to
know that Chinese doctors figured it out a long time earlier,
(08:44):
and that information was not transmitted to the West until
after a Western practitioner figured it out, which happens time
and time again, every time you're like this guy invented
a thing, you're like, this guy invented it for the
Western world.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Read it for it.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Yeah, totally something. But he invented something called the Carmen canula,
which is a flexible curet and it basically allows vacuum aspiration.
It allows the idea of using in this case originally
a syringe to suck things out with a flexible tube
instead of using a sharp curet. And it dramatically reduces
(09:22):
the risk of perforat in the uterus, and it reduces
the need for anesthesia to relax the cervix. And it,
I mean, it's just a fucking flexible tube as far
as I can tell. And it gets called vacuum aspiration
or the non medical term, and I'm going to talk
about this in a little bit is called menstrual extraction.
The former, as best as I understand, it is like
the medical name, and the latter is it's de medicalized
(09:43):
name used in different people by two women who immediately
took upon his concept and improved upon it. Carol Downer
and Lori Aenne Rothman were two of the most important
underground abortion providers at the time. Yet They're rarely referred
to as that because what they did is they invented
and again I can't speak to everyone ever having done
this before, but they invented a menstrual extraction. They took
(10:07):
the existing vacuum aspiration and they added both a one
way valve in order to keep air from accidently going
into the uterus, and then also a jarged a mason
jar that's attached to it so that more material can
be removed at once. And so now you can do
a full menstrual extraction, which is basically the idea of like,
(10:28):
you can pass all of your mensies all at once
instead of waiting for it to slowly pass. And what
happens when you do that is, if you happen to
be pregnant with a first train mester abortion, you are
suddenly no longer pregnant, okay. And they didn't like advertise
this as an abortion technique because that would have been illegal. Instead,
(10:52):
they were like, oh, groups of women could just all
get together and provide this service for each other. Because
it actually takes multiple people to use the device. You
can't necessarily self administer it just because of angles and
I don't know, and to be Frank. I had never
heard of this, and about half of the people I've
talked to who have universes had heard of this, and
(11:13):
half of them hadn't. And I don't know whether myself.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
Seemed them not in person, Like I obviously have seen
the pictures of the as you're describing me. I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, okay,
I get it. Yep, yep, yep yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
And it gets called. Their invention is called a Dell
M D E L space EM in case you all
want to go look up how to do this kind
of interesting thing. In nineteen seventy one, they invent this thing,
and then they downplay the abortion side of it. But
they go to the National Organization Conference of Women, the
NOW Conference in California in nineteen seventy one, so they
can announce this invention to the world, and they were like, hell, yeah,
(11:47):
everyone's going to love this. But instead the NOW organizers
were like, this is a little bit much for a booth.
I don't think you can have a booth for an
abortion here. And they're like, what it's remind structure right now,
I'm putting words in their mouth, And so they put
up flyers saying, hey, come to our hotel room and
we'll show you how to use this device. And everyone
fucking loved it, right because it fucking ruled. And so
(12:10):
they gathered this list of names and they went on
this greyhound tour across the country giving presentations about the
dell M. And I just love how like scrappy it
is that they like invent this thing that involves Mason jars.
And they don't have a car, so they're just like again,
I mean, maybe a car, but they go on a
greyhound tour that rules. And Lorraine has a quote from
two thousand and two that sums up the sort of
(12:31):
de medicalization approach that was popular with a lot of
the underground abortion access people before nineteen seventy three. What
did women do before there were doctors. Let's stop the
humiliation of trying to persuade the powers that be to
legalize abortion. Let's just take back the technology, the tools,
the skills, and the information to perform early abortions and
(12:51):
be in charge of our own reproduction. And once again,
you'll be shocked to know that this device is having
something of a comeback in the modern era. And so
Jane didn't use the del M specifically as far as
I can tell, But they did use the Carmen canula extensively,
and I think generally in combination with vacuum aspiration. They also,
(13:13):
and this gets into the sketchier side of some of it,
they use another one of Carmen's inventions that was a
lot less successful. They use something called the super coil.
I'm actually curious, have you heard of this? I'm trying
to figure out how known this is and.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
I don't think so. But it's one of those I'm like,
as you describe it, I may know of it totally.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
I'm not trying to put you on the spot.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Yeah no, no, yeah, because I'm sitting here like, Okay,
We've gotten through several devices and I think I'm glazed though,
but yeah, keep going.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
No, no, no, So the super coil is not around today
because it is a bad idea as far as I
can tell, and it was meant to revolutionize second trimester abortion. Basically,
he was like, I have revolutionized first trimester abortion and
made it easier for lay people to do it. Now
I want to revolutionize second tremis abortion. And so the
super coil involves coiling up like like tightly coiled plastic
(14:07):
rings basically attached to a string that are inserted into
the uterus and then left to expand so that they
could be pulled out and then clear out the area
as they you know, causing.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
The I did not know what This is horrifying though, Yeah,
I feel like I've had Sophie. Yeah, so my last
interaction with Robert when Sophie was them talking about a
birth control that attached itself and to tour o people's shooters.
So this is amazing. I feel like with Come.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Full Circle, we definitely have com Full Circle. That on
that episode with Robert was like one of the like
I it like makes me itchy and like it was
so terrifying.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Yeah, I still see people post you but yeah, like that,
we're back here to something that goes out, expands and
tries to pull things out of people's vaginas. So I'm like, okay,
we're back.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
That's our thing, Samantha.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
This let's keep going. This is amazing. I'm now like, yes,
this is my world, let's go.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
This is the This is the darkest chunk of this episode.
I believe even later they get arrested and it's not
as dark as this chunk. So they helped Carmen test it.
They they sided with him in debates to come, and
they were probably wrong about it. It was meant to
help lay people provide abortions, but it was it was
probably too good to be true. Basically, like they were
(15:31):
at least one person I read argued that basically they
were like sucked in by the idea of like, oh,
we have a numerical device. This rules because they had
just gotten a numerical device from the same guy. Not
numerical but not numbers, but miracle device that is new.
So he goes and tests it, and he first tests
it through with International Planned Parenthood in on Bangladeshi women
(15:53):
at a large scale, and it I'm not aware of
it killing anyone, but it did not do incredibly well
and there were a lot of complications.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
I will say it sounds like it could cause permanent damage, yes,
which is kind of the horror stories people tell that
our anti choice about the permanent damage. And this seems
to follow suit because I can't imagine something just at
that point in time being like, oh, it's self working.
It just expands and grabs the right things.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
But does but doesn't yeah, exactly, And there's a lot
of different arguments about or I've seen a couple different
things about whether or not Jane was involved in using
this or testing this. I do believe they did use
this successfully for a number of abortions, and again, their
overall results were that they were as good as any
(16:45):
medical facility at that time. Right, Right, But anyway, this
is a darker thing that they were involved in, right.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
I mean, that makes me a question did they give
the people who came in, the patients and clients a
choice on what kind of procedure they could have? And
I know they were pretty good about giving like risk
statistics and let them know aftercare and all of that.
So I wonder if there was like a moment of like,
you have these options, now, which would you like to do?
Speaker 2 (17:16):
I would like to get off of them the benefit
of the doubt of that around that, But I don't know.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
And because I honestly did not know this part of
this history, I was like, oh, yeah, that's that's a
little alarming. You don't want to start testing things and
when you have someone testing on a different group of
people you know is probably not good, which is the
history of all medicine essentially. But you know, that's a
whole different rabbit hole that I will not do as
(17:44):
a negative Nelly moment.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
So I'm not no, no, I mean like, and this
is like, this is the most warts and all that
I'm going to get around this, and even this is
like a complicated thing, you know. One of the things
that I read one of the black women who volunteered
for this was like basically to her position being like
I'm paraphrasing, but like if I can kidding me saying
that I can't consent to this just because I'm a
(18:05):
black woman, you know. And so there's this like I'm
reading biased reports, right, I'm reading people who are trying
to make positions to either claim that this was this
terrible thing that people did or this brilliant, brave thing
that people did. And I don't have anything near the
right position to understand what is and isn't ethical for
(18:26):
what happened here, and like what level of informed consent
was available. But I'm also under the impression that a
lot of their other options were worse.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
Right, So we come back to the fact that there's
so many things that pushes people to a certain point,
and when it's not accessible and it becomes looked at
as again lawful unlawful. Then people to push to the
point that is is extreme. So you do what you can,
and people being in that point, well, we are going
(18:58):
to choose what they think is less are able for them. Yeah,
and it's not the case like that's it shouldn't have
to be even that conversation.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Yeah, totally. And so as a Carmen, he kind of
disappears after this whole fiasco. He's like, I tried to
invent a thing and it didn't work, and he kind
of his trail was called at least from my my
slooping at this point, it.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
Wasn't a medical doctor, right, you or say that he's
either got maybe maybe in psychology, but also maybe just theater,
Like he just.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Right did a thing. However, as as a different states
would legalize abortion, he was so well known that he
would be invited to come participate in legal abortion areas
because he was a really experienced abortionist. But that also
empowered him to do all of these things that are
(19:51):
real messy, and so it's just like kind of interesting
that like this is the person who did the thing
that got say, first trimester abortions avail, you.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
Know, right, I mean some good did come of it.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Right, and now we have chemical abortions for first sar
amester that are safer and better than this method as
far as I understand him a circumstances. But I don't know.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
There's so many things to this in this conversation about
what this looks like when it is not considered healthcare
and why it's so blase, and yes, some good did
come of it, but some bad to come of it,
And then there's this need of like understanding it is healthcare.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Yeah, totally okay, but but who is cool? Yes, I will,
I will go on.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Lim to say is another abortion is to popularize some
shit that Jane wound up using a guy named Robert Spencer.
And Robert Spencer was a true believer and he was
not a grifter. He was a doctor, an actual medical doctor,
and the coal fields in Ashland, Pennsylvania, and he cut
his doctoring teeth inventing new ways to treat black lung
and coal miners, including a lot of pioneering work. And
(20:58):
I don't know to pronounce this word, Bronco Scott Bronchios
is ticking cameras down people's throats. I don't know, looking
at people's throats, and he did experiment with black lung.
But this is also a situation where you're like, oh,
these coal miners are dying and no one here is
like paying attention to black lung except me. And so
he's very well liked, this doctor in this town. And
then sometime in the early twenties, he starts a coal
(21:20):
miner's wife is like, you know, I'm pregnant. I'd really
rather not be, and I tried calling Jane, but the
number isn't active yet or something. I'm like forty years
too early. So he performs an abortion, and then he
just starts performing abortions in this town, and he single
handedly performed something like forty thousand abortions. He died in
nineteen sixty nine before his work could become legal, and
(21:41):
his wife burned all of his records, I guess, to
either protect his legacy or maybe his staff or maybe herself,
I don't know. And he eventually the entire town's economy,
like huge chunk of the town's economy relies on this guy,
because people are coming from all over the place to
get abortions here, and they like staying at hotels and shit.
But the hotel tells some of the hotels at least
(22:01):
didn't let black patients stay, so he built accommodations so
that black patients could still come and get abortions in
this town. He was arrested three times for providing abortions.
One of the times he was arrested at least was
because a patient died. They died from anesthesia problems. And
you know, I'm not a doctor. I know that anesthesia
(22:24):
is a complicated thing, especially eighty years ago. You know,
I'm not trying to like lay judgment on him for this,
but he was acquitted two of the times he was
arrested because I think everyone in town was like, you
can't convict this guy. You what are you talking about? Like,
this is our guy. We like this guy, were like
abortion yeah yeah, and like and he also had union protection,
(22:48):
the United Mine Workers had.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
His best the okay, okay, yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
They're like union miners did not fuck around back then.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
As our boy, don't touch them.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Yeah. And to his quote about why people liked him,
I've been here since nineteen nineteen. I dare say I've
helped out half the town, even on the abortion end,
there's probably one of my patients related to a family
in half the town. I think most of the town
would stand up for me.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
That's just like I think they would stand up with me.
I think we're cool.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Yeah. And so he's seventy nine years old. He keeps
going into retirement and then coming out of retirement because
people need his help, right, because he's really fucking good
at his job. And he provides abortions for cheap and
I'll get to that. And he's seventy nine and he's
awaiting trial for a third time and he dies of
old age while like actively practicing, and he was performing
(23:41):
three to four abortions a day right up to the end.
There's this whole article from Village Voice from nineteen sixty nine.
I think it's called the Death of an Abortionist, and
it's a journalist who travels down there to basically just
to meet him, just to be like, you are amazing.
You are the reason that people feel safe, you know.
And he charged the cheapest rates, some of the cheapest
rates of anyone. His first abortions cost five dollars, and
(24:05):
then as the cost of drugs and overhead went up
at the end, he was charging two hundred dollars in
the late sixties, but again most abortions were costing six
hundred to two thousand dollars. He was this like lovable weirdo.
He treated everyone kindly. He covered his office in like
weird weird plaques from tourist traps and the Village Voice
journalists who showed up. She asks him, like, why did
(24:26):
you perform abortions when the people first asked you? And
he said, because I could see their point of view,
and I just I love that as an answer, you know,
just like basic human empathy. And his name never really
appeared until he died. His name like didn't really appear
much in print. I think one place docked him or whatever,
but he was always just printed as the legendary doctor
(24:48):
s and okay. And he popularized a technique or using
something called I don't pronounce this word loundbacks paste loanback's
paste to help dilate the cervix. It's like a soft soap.
Is not currently in use, but Jane used it and
was very glad for it. It helped make their whole
(25:09):
anesthesia process much safer. And they I don't know whether
they made their own or got it from Robert Spencer
because Robert Senser was making his own because it was
no longer commercially available. I don't know. I think he's
cool too, And I really liked that Jane was building
from this was part of this larger framework of people
who are like, how do we do this like absent
(25:30):
of like the medical industry, how do we actually like
figure out how to do this safely and.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
Well right, actually caring about their patients? That's revolutionary?
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Yeah, totally, God, I wish I wish that revolution that's stuck. Yeah,
you know who does care about their patients?
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Who? I'm ready?
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Well, potatoes, I've been I've been trying to get advertised
by potatoes. I don't know how potatoes have become doctors,
but I think potatoes are great. And I want to
be answered by entirely wholesome things. So if you hear
anything unwholesome in the ads, that was a mistake. It's
Robert's fault. It's again, it's Robert's fault.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
Agreed.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Yeah, And so here's some ads for potatoes and maybe
some other stuff. And we're back and we're discussing whether
or not we should actually expand our list of sponsors
to include kittens.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
And cut it. I think, I think yes, I mean
it's good to diversify.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
I mean, I think it's important that we talk about
kittens and puppies, right.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
I think so. We just have to make clear that
we're advertising the concept of kittens and puppies, not the
people who traditionally go about selling kittens and puppies.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
Yes, it's very clear.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Not not a kitten mill or puppy mill type.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
Situation at all. Rescue talking about is the idea of
just cuddling with some kittens or cuddling with a dog,
or at least looking at a cute pictures.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Yeah, while one kitten is in one arm and one
puppy is in the other arm.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
My family, when kittens and dogs are friends.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Yeah, totally. I can't wait to introduce my dog to
more cats. It's actually never gone well, so I.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
Actually have My dog does not love cats.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Well, my dogs, the cats love the dog.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
That's fair.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
He does not know how to play. So I want
to quote a little bit at length from why Jane
Collective did this work. It's from a statement about why
they did is a pamphlet that they gave to prospective clients.
Abortion as a social problem. We are giving our time
not only because we want to make abortions safer, cheaper,
(27:43):
and more accessible for the individual women who come to us,
but because we see the whole abortion issue as a
problem of society. The current abortion laws are a symbol
of something subtle but often blatant oppression of women in
our society. Women should have the right to control their
own bodies and lives. Only a woman who is pregnant
and can determine whether or not she has enough resources economic, physical,
and emotional at a given time to bear and rear child.
(28:06):
Yet at present, the decision to bear the child or
to have an abortion is taken out of her hands
by government bodies, which can have only the slightest notion
of the problems involved. The same society that glamorizes women
as sex objects and teaches them from an early childhood
to please and satisfy men, views pregnancy and childbirth as
punishment for immoral or careless sexual activity, especially if the
(28:27):
women is uneducated, poor, or black. Our society's view of
equal opportunity means that lower class women bear unwanted children
or face expensive, illegal, and often unsafe abortions, while well connected,
middle class women can frequently get safe and hush hush
dncs and hospitals. Only women can bring about their own liberation.
It is time for women to get together to change
(28:48):
the male made laws and aid their sisters caught in
the bind of legal restrictions and social stigma. Women must
fight together to change the attitudes of society about abortion
and to make the state provide free abortions as a
human right. I like that.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
I like that. There's so many things that like, it
just applies today. I know we're talking about that, but hmm.
But the problem is because it is women's centered typically,
and especially during that time, people see that as being
less important in conversation. Has become it made in a
moral ground. Yeah, even though it's very political obviously. Yeah,
(29:25):
but yeah, I do love I do love that sentiment,
and uh we still need that sentiment. Yeah. No.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
I like like sometimes when I get like lost in
the weeds about like this is how they did this
one thing, and this is how they did this other thing,
and then instead you're just kind of like, here's like
a hundred people who got together to commit felonies to
try and keep people safe, and it's just like that's
always cool, you know, like like and there's always something
I don't know, So I like hearing the the why
they did it. But speaking of felonies, this is not
(29:54):
an ad transition. I'm not advertising felonies on that. I'm
probably advertising felonies on the show, but not from the
point of view of a sponsorship.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
Yeah, not trying to get money for it.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
Oh yeah, well you got to go out and get
your own money, you know, just say it. Yeah. So
Jane is this big open secret and everyone knows about it.
They advertised and they had security procedures in place, but
clearly the police knew about them, and most of the
(30:26):
reporting about Jane basically says the cops didn't bust them
because the cops kind of liked them. They were clean
and safe and no one was dying, so so why
bust them? Right? To me, this fundamentally misunderstands the nature
of the police, especially the Chicago Police Department. In a
nation of corrup police departments, Chicago like consistently stands out
as one of the crookedest. And the other thing you'll
(30:47):
hear is that police put up with it because the
wives of police and the wives of politician were amongst
their clients, and this feels more plausible to me, But
I suspect that politicians' wives at least could afford a
trip to New York, and so I feel like there's
some kind of like, to be clear, I think crime
is cool, But the same accounts also say that mafia
(31:07):
didn't come after them for similar reasons. They're like, oh, well,
they're not really making a profit, so why would the
mafia care? And this is right, doesn't sound like if
that doesn't sound like the police, and that doesn't sound
like the mafia.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
So this is amazing, all of this, all this moment
is amazing.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
Yeah, I'm just I'm enjoying this entire thing, all right.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
You know.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
The other part to this is because they don't see
this as an issue for them, because at that point
in time, I think the majority of the police were men. Yeah,
just speaking, so it was that a woman's thing. It's
also kind of like same level of like not talking
about periods and being shameful about women's bodies. So it
was like a good point, We're going to pretend you
(31:48):
don't exist because it's easier for us to ew icky
even though and I mean to be frank, the majority
of the times kind of like today when we talk
about abortion and abortion rights and abortion being healthcare men
typically outside of the morally loud like this is than
just whatever, just don't care because it has nothing to
(32:09):
do with them, and it's just gross and it's like, eh,
it's women's issues, so we'd rather just ignore it, and
doesn't think it's necessarily important. Of course we've got the
religious bits, but.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Yeah, no, this is actually, this is actually that helps
sell me on it better because like all I can see,
I am again really not trying to cause anyone who
might be alive of any kind of crime, but it
seems like the mafia might have been getting a share
out of this. I don't know, again like no judgment
or whatever people need to do to keep the shit running.
But yeah, because everyone knows about this and no one's
(32:41):
doing anything about it. But the thing you're saying also
about like basically people being like we're just not going
to fucking touch it is also completely possible. And then
the way it all falls apart, well it doesn't actually
really fall apart. The way that some people get in
trouble can be told a couple different ways, and run
across one probable story than one maybe story. One day
(33:02):
in nineteen seventy three, a Catholic woman comes to get
an abortion, and at the time I actually behind the
Bassard's did a better podcast. But this I remember exactly
when the Protestants started caring about abortion, but for a while,
like only the Catholics cared. Catholic woman comes into get
an abortion, and she was of mixed minds about the
whole thing. A Jane volunteer named Genie Gallizer Leve spends
(33:22):
a long time talking with her about it and like
counseling her, and later she's really bitter about the long
time she's spent talking to her about it. Her sister
in law, the patient's sister in law, was there with her,
and her sister in law called them in, And what
I've heard is that she didn't call them into the
police station like in the district where they were like
(33:43):
seen as friendly, but instead called them into a different district,
and so suddenly bad things happen. But that's the story
I hear most often told. Another account is that the
anti abortion lobby was trying to get some arrests in
to do some damage on the legal front. Because Supreme
Court was about to see Roe v. Wade and which
(34:05):
spoiler alert legalized abortion federally across the US and the
seven to two ruling, So maybe someone wanted to get
some abortionists on trial and hurry. And then there's a
third story which comes from the person who's very critical
of their supercil testing, that the bust happened on a
day that they were planning on doing supercoil testing, and
(34:26):
that it was like related to all of that. I
tend to believe the Catholic story best, but I feel
like there's something I actually don't believe any of these stories. Frankly,
that's what. I don't know what it is.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
Yeah, we just know that they got raided and we
don't know how it began. But yeah, I could be
any of the stories. But that's the one i'd heard too,
is the Catholic to Catholic women had apported them, but
any fiscal reason. Again, it was coincidentally around and I
will use air quotes more coincidentally around roversus Wade and
(34:59):
the big cop backladging back and forth and controversy with that.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
So yeah, yeah, with you, Yeah, I think I would
put the most likely is the combination of the first
two things as the Catholic women and some people trying
to get some shit going on. I don't know, but yeah,
they get raided. A May third, nineteen seventy two, Genie
is working at the front and she's caring for three
children left behind by a patient. When she hears a
(35:25):
knock at the door. She thought it was another Jane
who had just like dropped off some snacks, come back
to drop off more snacks, or maybe forgot something or something,
and instead it was cops, really really tall cops. Genie
is like, let them in and told everyone in the
waiting room, these are the police. You don't have to
tell them anything. And then Genie, describing the event, says
(35:45):
they were really tall, really weird. I developed this whole theory.
I love crackpot theories. I intend to be a crackpot
when I grow up. This is Genie, not me, although
it is also true of me. I love the no
I know, yeah, this is still better. Yeah, yeah, quote,
I intend to be a crackpot when I grow up.
My theory is that you have to be really tall
to be a homicide cop. These were homicide cops because
(36:08):
abortion was a homicide and they were homicide cops who
hated being there. You know, it's not easy to make
homicide detective. You have to be really good. It's not
even political, like taking the sergeant's exam. You have to
really do something. And they do it because they want to.
And by and large, what they do is track people
down who kill other people, and they think of themselves
as good guys, and they hated being there. This was
not their kind of crime. End quote.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
That is an interesting theory. I really like there's so
many observations about just the male appearance, that these characters
are so like that they're all tall, very tall though.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
I know, right, all the cops are like five foot seven,
you know, right five.
Speaker 3 (36:51):
Forday, yeah, average, but they're tall because I'm four foot eleven.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
Okay, yeah, totally, or maybe they like scent. They're like,
there are three people who are, you know, six foot
six over to go arrest everyone, And so they detain
everyone at the front and they start asking everyone questions.
And the way they figured out who the Janes were, apparently,
is that when they asked the Janes questions, the Janes
refused to answer. And while this did get them separated
out for arrest. It probably saved them later in court,
(37:17):
or at least it was very helpful in court. Their
lawyer later thanked them, was like, I'm so glad you
all didn't say anything, right. And patients though, were asked
all kinds of questions and they largely answered. One question
that left the cops completely confused was they kept asking
how much the Janes charged, and everyone gave wildly different answers.
The police came, I guess, maybe expecting a mafia style
(37:38):
for profit enterprise, and they didn't find one. And at
the same time, the cops arrived at the place and
arrest everyone there, and apparently they showed up and they
were like, where are all the men? Though, you know
who's doing the abortions? Right, And so I guess they
actually really didn't know Jane inside it out, you know,
if they think all these things and so at least
they probably weren't infiltrated, right, this is what the cops
(38:00):
think true?
Speaker 3 (38:02):
And those spies.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Yeah, I tend to think that, like the cops know everything, right,
because we talk about how we live in a pentopticon
and we're all being studied all the time or whatever,
and then like every now and then the cops are
just like, they don't know shit. I want to tell
a completely off based story about all of this. Right,
one time, my friend was being investigated as the leader
of international anarchism by the FEDS, and never mind, I'm
(38:26):
not going to tell that story. Okay.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
So there's so many levels of understanding why. I'm like, yeah,
I have I have a cookie cutter of vanilla life,
and I'm really sad that I'm not a part of this.
I don't want to be investigated because I do not
have the anxiety to go through an investment. But just
knowing someone, I'm like, yeah, hell yeah they are Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
Well the spoiler alert, there is no leader of international anarchism.
It goes against the whole idea, and eventually the FEDS
figured that out. But the more personal details about it,
I'm not going to get into. You're you're going to okay, yeah,
but so okay. So they're all thrown into patty wagons.
They're taken off to jail, and Genie says that when
they were taken off to jail on the patty wagon,
(39:11):
all the all the other women in the patty wagon
were sex workers who kept everyone in good spirits. By
just like telling fun horrible stories about their lives or whatever,
and I really like that they were there to keep
everyone's spirits up. And then in the patty wagon, the
Jans all pulled out all the index cards with all
of the patient info and shit, and they ripped them
up into little pieces, passed them out, and ate them,
(39:32):
which is great, badass. And they only spent one night
in jail, probably because they're middle class white women. One
of them, I think one of them, who was a
nursing mother, was let go that night because she had
to go home and feed her kids. And Genie talks
about how the cops like treated them all well as
fellow middle class white people while being rude to any
(39:53):
of the patients who ended up in jail and all
the other people and all the other women in jail,
which yeah, I guess doesn't really surprise anyone who's listening
to us. Yeah, but in jail they are all The
only food they got offered was boloney sandwiches, which which
Genie couldn't eat, presumably because she was vegetarian. And the
reason that I include this is because one time I
was arrested at this anti IMF demonstration in DC thirty
(40:13):
years after all this shit in two thousand and two,
and they gave us all blooney sandwiches and we all
just like sat there and like laughed at our blooney
sandwiches because we were all fucking like vegans and vegetarians
and shit, and we're like, what are we gonna do
with this? And it was it was mostly a bad experience.
But I was only in jail for like thirty six hours,
possibly because I'm middle class and white and I don't know,
(40:35):
so I didn't get to eat in jail and sucked,
but whatever. I just like that this has been like
a true thing forever. Is that like when hippies and
activists and shit get arrested, they were like, what the
fuck am I gonna do this blooney sandwich? Yeah, So
they get led out on bail and they're each facing
one hundred and ten years because the eleven counts of
homicide and conspiracy to commit homicide in the case that
(40:56):
will be known as the Abortion seven. And at least
according to Genie, Jane kind of distances themselves at this
point from them and they I guess, like as like
they were like, oh, it's this strategic necessity, we're going
to keep going, and Jane did keep going while the
trial was ongoing, but it still doesn't sound good to me, honestly,
(41:18):
and Genie at least felt really betrayed. According to the
interview I read with her, the rest of the feminist
movement kind of though, had her back. There was a
defense committee formed with the sick name of the Abortion
Task Force the ATF, and several of the arrestees were
part of an organization called the Leche League, which is
(41:39):
a pro nursing organization. Nursing, I guess was out of
style at the time, and the Leche League had their back,
which fucking rules that the like the Mother's Association was like, yeah,
of course we're defending these abortionists, you know. And I
don't really know what the distancing looked like because several
of the Abortion seven actually went back to work for
Jane while they were out on bail, which is also
fucking badass, and they spent a while finding lawyer. Most
(42:02):
of the lawyers they found were terrible. One guy was
very movement focused and wanted them to basically go to
prison and was like, yeah, you're gonna be martyrs for
the cause.
Speaker 3 (42:09):
You know.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
And they're like, we don't like that very much. This
is not actually our plan. And so finally they settled
on joe Ane Wolfson, who one account calls the Queen
of the Hopeless and she once ran away from home
to join the circus and like work with elephants and shit. Okay,
So her brother was an attorney too, who once got
sentenced to seventy years in prison in nineteen eighty five
(42:30):
after pleading guilty to racketeering in an anti corruption case
in Chicago. That's aw a fuck ton of the judges, lawyers,
and cops sent away for organized crime shit. So okay,
mafia and corruption shit just runs deep in Chicago.
Speaker 3 (42:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
Anyway, so this is their lawyer and she is the
what I do know about her, she was the right
lawyer for the job, and she rules. She saw rov
Wade on the horizon and she was like, all right,
here's the plan. Let's delay this shit as long as possible.
And the court was fine with that plan too, because frankly,
they saw the writing on the wall and they didn't
want to waste court resources on it. So in January
(43:07):
nineteen seventy three, the Supreme Court decided that the Fourteenth
Amendments guarantee of the right to privacy included the right
to have abortions in a very I had my lawyer
friend try and explain this whole thing to me recently,
and Roe v. Wade is like complicated as a from
a legal perspective, but it worked for now for good.
We'll see maybe but the time you're listening to this anyway. Whatever.
(43:27):
So prosecutors knew if they wanted, they could come after
them for practicing medicine without a license, but they decided
it was more trouble than it was worth, and they
really just didn't want to make a fuss out of it.
That said, also, my lawyer friend was explaining to me
that most Supreme Court decisions are not retroactive. But basically
they're like this shit, as far as I can tell,
they're like, this shit is way too political. We don't
want to fucking touch this case. So they made they
(43:49):
cut a deal. We don't charge you with practicing medicine
without a license, you don't ask for your medical equipment back,
and the Jane seven said, oh my god, yes please.
They took their deal and their charges were the end
of Jane that's the name of my little section in
the script. Rovy Wade fucking rules, and I don't want
to pretend like it doesn't. The fact that it's under
threat is fucking bad.
Speaker 3 (44:11):
You know.
Speaker 2 (44:11):
I hope that this doesn't sound like we're talking from
distant utopian past when you all hear this episode come out,
because this episode will probably come out about a month
after we record it. But it's not enough. And the
women of Jane knew that right because abortion was legalized,
but it was also remedicalized. It went back in the
hands of male doctors. It became it tied once again
into an inaccessible medical system that treats women like bodies
(44:32):
like cars to be fixed. Jane actually continued for a
few weeks after the ruling, but everyone was just so
fucking exhausted, burned out, and the fire was gone. And ironically,
they were afraid that they might catch charges for because
the for profit medical industry might lead the charge on
them for practicing medicine without a license. They threw a
fuck it were done now party, and Jane was over
(44:55):
after their fuck it were done now party, which is
the way I'm raising it, and I like that people
miss the intensity of it. Jane activist Ruth Circle put
it like this. For the people I know, it was
the single most intense period of our life, and when
it stopped, there was something missing and you couldn't find
anything to do that carried quite that energy for a
long time. But you know what does carry energy is potatoes.
(45:19):
And you should eat food of some type, whatever type
you like, but it is healthy and good, and that's
why we advertise it on this show, the concept of potato. Yeah,
all potatoes. All potatoes are great as well as whatever's
abby and advertised. And we are back. And so this
(45:43):
this intensity leaving, it's something that I think is familiar
to a lot of people who are involved in activism,
especially like more intense activism. I'm guessing that anyone who
was radicalized by the twenty twenty demonstrations has felt this
when you leave this moment of intensity. But people keep
going right. TRM. Howard, the black civil rights leader who
(46:03):
is the first abortionist the network called. He kept providing
abortions now legally and his private black owned practice offered
abortions for fifty dollars less than what local hospitals charged.
The Defense Committee with that sick name the ATF. They
switched to becoming a new group that also had a
sick name, Health Evaluation and Referral Services. Hers. It's a
shitty name, but it's a great acronym. And I feel
(46:27):
like they really, I don't know, they started off with
not strong naming game, but I think that they over
the course of time they figured.
Speaker 3 (46:33):
It out getting there.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
Yeah, So Hers and Heather Booth, Jane's founder, they went
on to start the Chicago Abortion Fund in Chicago nineteen
eighty five, which is a nonprofit that is still around
today and is a simple, clean, honest name that does
what it says on the tin. And as the host
of cool people did cool stuff, I appreciate a thing
that just does what it says on the tin. So
I want to talk about some of the other direct
(46:56):
action abortionists who've come since, because this need continues, right
and there are millions of people who've done this kind
of work. Probably as long as there's been legal restrictions
on abortion, there have been people fighting against it. You
talked about some of them actually at the beginning of
the show, and I'm hoping you chime in with more
of them as I go through some of these And
I want to do more episodes about more of these people,
or I think people can listen to other podcasts that
(47:17):
talk about it too. So normally I stick with people
in the past for this show, but this issue just
feels too important to me right now to not include
some of these. So there's Women on Waves, which is
a Dutch organization that was started by the physician Rebecca
Gombert's in nineteen ninety nine. And she used to be
the ship's doctor aboard a green piece ship and she
was like, oh, boats are fucking cool, which is my paraphrasing,
(47:39):
not a direct quote. So she got a boat and
she headed out to various countries with restrictive abortion practices.
She loads up patients on shore heads twenty miles out
to sea, and since it's Dutch ship, Dutch laws and
effect though even the Dutch are a little wary about
the whole thing, and the ship is only authorized to
provide the abortion pill non surgical abortions to pregnancies up
to nine weeks. And they don't just provide abortion, they
(48:00):
provide education, contraception and education. And the first place they
go is Ireland because you don't have to go very
far from the Netherlands to go to a country that
had terrible abortion laws in two thousand and one. Ironically,
Ireland is liberalizing its abortion laws just as the US
is regressing. And this boat is super contentious. And also
it's contentious when you tell people who have ships that
(48:20):
they're called boats, because they don't like that. They like
to be like, this is a ship, not a boat.
But I think it's funny because boat is a cuter name.
So Portugal blocks women on waves from approaching with a
fucking warship, and then in Guatemala they make it less
than a day before a warship comes and pushes them
out to sea. And oh, and you actually were talking
(48:41):
about Poland earlier. Women on waves once flew a drone
carrying abortion pills into Germany from Poland. In case anyone
needs any ideas, maybe and Rebecca Gomperts goes on in
twenty eighteen to form a nonprofit called aid Access that
focuses on helping pregnant people self manage their own abortions
with abortion pills, which are generally a combination of I
(49:02):
don't know how to pronounce these words. I'm terribly sorry.
Maybe you do, MiFi, prestone and mysoposatol. These are the
primary abortion pills that people are taking right now to
end first trimester abortions and sending them through the mail
in the US and to other countries that are increasingly
criminalizing abortion, and they field at about fifty thousand requests
in the first year that they were operational. At least
(49:24):
one organization is bulletproofing vans getting ready to help people
safely leave Texas to get to states where they can
get the healthcare they need. They're like park getting ready
to park the vans right outside the border of Texas.
And frankly, what isn't legal doesn't dictate what is and
isn't safe. Right During the fifty years we've had Roe v.
Wade in the US, abortion workers have regularly risked and
(49:45):
sometimes lost their lives in order to help people terminate
unwanted pregnancies. Receptionists, security guards, and clinic escorts have all
been murdered, kidnapped, to attack, threatened, you name it. And
one of the reasons I bring that up ending on
this kind of darker note, but one of the reasons
I bring that up is because we can have this
concept that direct action abortion can only happen when it's illegal,
(50:07):
and that's just not true. Like I don't know. In
one southern city I lived in, there were for years
there were no clinic escorts because the people and clinic escorts,
for anyone who doesn't know, are the people who wait
outside of clinic and shield patients from the abuse from
anti choice protesters. And there are no clinic escorts in
this town because all the escorts have been followed home
and had their windows shot out. And my sister does
(50:29):
clinic escorting, and I just want to shout her out.
She's a direct action hero from my point of view.
Even if what she's doing is legal, you know, still
a risk. Yeah, totally. I only did it once. It
was a long time ago in Louisville, Kentucky. And basically,
as I understood it, I was told by the punks
in town. They were like, the anti choice protesters here
are like really scary, So they want the scary punks
(50:51):
to come be the clinic escorts, you know, because like normally,
if you don't have really bad protesters, you kind of
don't want the scary people to come to like help
escort people in. But when people are really threatening, then
you call the really threatening looking people, which when I
was twenty I was a very threatening looking person just
by being a punk.
Speaker 1 (51:12):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (51:13):
I love that that's the threat. It's like I'm a punk,
that's right, come.
Speaker 2 (51:16):
On, yeah, yeah yeah. And we were all like full
of ourselves, like twenty year old anarchists who are like,
we'll do anything, you know, And the world needs lots
of angry twenty year olds. Also, unfortunately, it also needs
a lot of the angry twenty year olds to stop.
It depends on what they're angry about, really.
Speaker 3 (51:32):
Right, I mean, just a reminder, I mean, I just
want to put this also sad little fact in here.
Even after a Row versus weighed in the Supreme Court
in nineteen seventy seven, we had the High Amendment, which
is still in place and has never gone away, which
restricts funds for healthcare and access, which means pretty much
(51:52):
is a very classist and racist amendment making sure those
who really probably are the ones that need it and
need this help and need this choice are the ones
that can't get access to safe abortion and safe reproductive
care in general. And then that has always been in
place and it has not been removed, and it has
not even come close to being removed and could have
(52:14):
been and should have been by some administrations. But that's
something to remember to Yeah, but that's part of the
problem is we have other things that yeah, sure, now
we have supposedly, yeah, we supposedly have the right to
do so, but we don't have access to do so.
And that's a conversation we need to have in pretending
(52:37):
like it's actually free and it's not or not actually free,
that it's actually accessible and it's not, and who that
truly affects and why it's such a bigger conversation, as
well as the fact that the gag rule exists, which
Title ten came in trying to help out to get
those funds, and then we have the gag rules saying
like well, nah, I guess individuals can choose this. So
(53:00):
it gets so convoluted and there's so many policies and
amendments on top of each other that it becomes almost
impossible to know what is accessible and what is legal.
And yeah, just because it's not legal doesn't mean you
can't get it, yeah, or you should be. But like,
that's this whole conversation in this bigger picture of like
(53:21):
we're coming back to the basics. Unfortunately, but we because
we were never unable to unravel the details that really
bind us. For those who want to get that ability,
they just have a choice. And again, reproductive care is
not just an abortion, Like, there's just a whole bigger
conversation once again, the fact that the co morbidity for
(53:44):
black women is higher, Like, it's just there's so many
conversations and what these policies are and who they truly affect,
and why these policies are in place. It's by its supremacy, patriarchy,
those things the reason we can keep harping on these two,
these three words, and people get pissed off about it,
(54:04):
and he goes, it's true, Yeah, there's no other I'm sorry.
I'm sorry that bothers you and that you've been benefiting
from that. Fuck you is still true.
Speaker 2 (54:12):
Yeah, no, I may have finished. No, no, no, I incredibly,
this is part of why I'm really excited that you're
the guest for this is the High Amendment. Is that
the thing where like I know that like at least
for a while, there was like only one abortion clinic
in Kentucky, and it was because you weren't allowed to
(54:32):
have an abortion clinics, hallways must be exactly and I'm
making this number up thirty one inches wide, whereas a
normal clinic has to have thirty three inch wide things.
And so they would do this shit where you like,
cannot have any a clinic that is anything other than
an abortion clinic, which means that it is entirely financially
unstable and impossible.
Speaker 3 (54:51):
Yeah, it starts stripping things. Essentially, the High Amendment really
took away the funding, so any public funding could not
go into it had accessibility to. So if you say, yes,
we offer abortion care, then you're automatically stripped of it.
You cannot get government funds okay, period. So any kind
(55:13):
of like services that would take Medicaid and made a
care you cann't go to their and get abortion because
that was restricted for government funds. So like, it absolutely
was a classist law, yeah.
Speaker 2 (55:26):
Which just continues the previous status quo where the rich
have access to reproductive health and then.
Speaker 3 (55:32):
And it's so sneaky. It's so sneaky because people don't
know about it much. They really think they have access
because it's a liberal state.
Speaker 2 (55:38):
But High Amendment, Yeah, reproductive care is so much more
than you as you said, reproductive care is so much
more than an abortion, and like a lot of it
is also about like the ability to choose to have children, right.
Speaker 3 (55:51):
Right, people who have children. This is a high risk
thing for many, many people, and they need that care.
And there's a reason why people died in childbirth and
it shouldn't have to be because there are advancements that
can prevent that. But people can't afford that. Like that,
(56:12):
that in itself is that conversation, and we don't actually
care about those who are giving birth, like to make
sure they're healthy. That's not pro life.
Speaker 2 (56:22):
Yeah, yeah, totally. The hypocrisy of all that stuff can
like keep me up at nights sometimes because I try
to have empathy with people I disagree with, and it
short circuits my empathy because I can't understand it because
it makes no fucking sense that you're like claiming to
be you know, this one thing and then you just
don't give a shit about people when they actually have children,
(56:42):
And like.
Speaker 3 (56:43):
I love that. That's why you quoted that doctor from
what was the Kentucky Pennsylvania Well, yeah, that's the same.
I'm just kidding Pennsylvania because it just seeing their perspective
that that is the true point of it, and this
conversation of a late term of abortions. A majority of
the people who are having late term abortions are not
(57:04):
by choice. Typically, they have been preparing for their child.
And I know many of people who were anti choice
for the longest time when they had to be put
in that situation and understanding, oh, this is still technically
an abortion, they may have different terms for it, realizing that, oh,
(57:27):
and then costing thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars,
putting their lives at risk. Coming back to being pro choice,
realizing what this conversation and what these types of laws
really hurt and who they really hurt, and how damaging
it is because there's this mystic religious moral background that
(57:47):
when order to demoralize and demonize those who even talk
about it as an option.
Speaker 2 (57:53):
Yeah, the moral crusaders are just being used as useful
idiots by people who want to do this other shit
and they like yet people riled up into being like
this is what is moral, and they're like okay, and
you run off and go do the thing, and like
that's not what the people controlling those people and give
a shit about any of that stuff.
Speaker 3 (58:07):
This is not about that.
Speaker 2 (58:09):
Yeah, and they're just you're being used if you made
it this far and you're you're a moral anti Yeah,
you're just.
Speaker 3 (58:19):
In the first episode. Yeah, we're a bit. We're on
this length, so you know, they know, Yeah, y'all know, right,
But yes, thank you so much for bringing this because
I love talking about the history. I definitely learned more
because I was like, what what is that? Things I
didn't want to know and things I didn't want to know,
So thank you for giving me that blend.
Speaker 2 (58:37):
Yeah, yeah, no, I yeah, I was realizing. I was like,
this is a thing that some people know a lot
about and some people don't know about it all. And like,
I'm really excited that more and more information is coming
forward and people are coming more and more aware about
Jaine Collective and all of the people who've done this
kind of work, because like, because we fucking need it,
and and we've already said that a bunch of times
on the show, but it just it feels worth repeating,
(58:58):
is that, like we need to know that we can
and like be brave and do the right thing, you know,
and we need to know that the means by which
to do it, do the right thing. We can have
those means, we can figure that out, you know. So yeah, well, well,
thank you so much for coming on and being a guest.
Speaker 3 (59:19):
I have a new best friend.
Speaker 2 (59:20):
Yeah, well so many new best friends also because all
the listeners. But I want to be more of the
best friend than them.
Speaker 1 (59:27):
Any any plugs at the end here?
Speaker 3 (59:30):
Like I said on the last episode, which I hope
you listened to and you stayed around for the second part,
I'm on stuff. Mom never told you a podcast with iHeartRadio.
You can get it wherever you listen to your podcast.
We are on Instagram and on Twitter. We don't type.
We don't type. Is that this is how old I am.
We don't post a lot. I don't type things on
(59:51):
there a lot, but we're there and we love getting messages.
I'm also on the social media's obviously not very good
at it on Instagram with McVeigh Sam and Twitter Sam
McVeigh because that's how creative I am.
Speaker 2 (01:00:08):
And you can see pictures of her dog.
Speaker 3 (01:00:10):
Yeah, yes, that's pretty much all it is pictures of
my dog. So if you like that, come on.
Speaker 1 (01:00:15):
Check it out and then we'll be back next week
on Monday and Wednesday. All right, Margaret yay wherever.
Speaker 2 (01:00:24):
Talk to you all soon. Bye everyone, Bye listeners. Cool
People Who.
Speaker 1 (01:00:34):
Did Cool Stuff is a production of cool Zone Media.
For more podcasts on cool Zone Media, visit our website
cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.