May 12, 2025 • 55 mins
Margaret talks with Anney Reese about how a group of people made polio vaccines and ended polio but how one guy took all the credit and ruined our understanding of history.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Cool Zone Media.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Hello, and welcome to Cool People Did Cool Stuff. You're
a weekly reminder that when there's bad things, there's people
trying to do good things. I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy,
and this week I have a guest. I guess I
usually have a guest, but this week I have a
guest named Annie Reese. Hi, how are you?
Speaker 3 (00:19):
I'm good. I feel like that's a loaded question these days,
but yes, I'm good. How are you?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I'm also good with air quotes everywhere.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Yes, I'm very excited to be here.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Yeah, I'm excited to have you on. And if people
haven't heard of you, which is surprising, you are one
of the hosts of Stuff Mom Never told You. And
you're also a host of Savor, which is a food podcast,
and I haven't actually heard that one yet, But I
am learning more and more about how I care about
food in terms of culture and politics and history and stuff.
(00:52):
And I just really appreciate y'all's tagline there's no you
and Savor.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Thank you. We Actually the show is big on puns
and oh good bad jokes, if you'll allow me to say,
but yes, that is a huge part of Savors that
I feel like a lot of times people divorce food
from politics when they really shouldn't, and history when they
really shouldn't. And there's just so much to learn from
(01:20):
what you're eating every day. So that's my bitch for saver.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
I want to hear it now. I like stuff mom'
never told you, and I think people will like these
things too. And if there's one thing you can say
about the current administration, this is not going to be
an episode about the current administration. Oh, I have to
do the rest of the introductions, including Sophie, who's our producer? Hi, Sophie.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Damn, it's just gonna forget me. I got a bright
prank hat on.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
I never forget you, Sophie.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
I would never forget Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
And good house plants always good house.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Plans, Thank you. Pretty bushy behind me today, I'm like, oh,
I want to touch it.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
We also have a new audio and who's Eva. Everyone's
to say hi to Eva, Hi Eva.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
Hi Eva, Hiva. Eva's great.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
He's gonna put that out there.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yeah, and actually Eva's been editing Our book Club, one
of my other shows. They cools on Media book Club
for a while.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Now, don't worry, we didn't get rid of Rory. Rory's
just working on a different project.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Yeah, mining coal. Yeah, actually not doing the mining of
the coal. But if you hang out in a cage,
you can keep track of when there's bad chemicals in
the air.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
I feel like we should make people at least, you know,
say haw to Rory one more time. I think, Hello, Rory, Hi,
Ri Hi Ory, if you want to say hi Rory more.
He's editing behind the bastards now.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
So I am, well, okay, the current administration thing.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Yeah, what's going on there? That was like a really
wild little teaser you did.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
So I went and did a Have you all ever
heard of lavender graduations?
Speaker 3 (02:56):
No? No, I have not.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
I hadn't, and I'm kind of embarrassed that I hadn't.
It's LGBT groups on college campuses have a graduation ceremony.
And I went and did a talk at one yesterday.
As we record this, and I was very like, how
is this gonna go? They hired a kind of fiery
(03:18):
anarchist to come give them their LGBT speech. I'm going
to tell them about gay people who had burned down
Nazi records. And then it kind of helped realizing that
everyone is really aware that things aren't okay right now,
So that was kind of actually promising. So in a
weird way, the one nice thing you can say about
(03:39):
the current situation is that no one has their head
in the sands in the same degree anymore.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
That's fair.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Did it go well, Oh yeah, the event went great.
It was really heartwarming. Actually, it was a very like, oh,
the kids are all right kind of moment, which is
condescending to say because they're not kids. There are like
twenty two I don't know how people are when they
graduate college.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Who knows. Two.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Yeah. So if there is one thing this does actually
relate to what we're gonna talk about this week and
a lot in the near future. If there's one thing
I can say about the current administration of the United States,
it's that it has made us realize that there's an
awful lot of stuff we take for granted. Right, Like,
I've never been a big like government person, this is
(04:26):
true about me, right, but I'm a big like social
services person. But I'm like, oh, there's all of these
things that are really really good that we try to
do as a society, and we like stuff that society
tends to do for us. And a lot of that
stuff is being taken away. So I've decided to spend
(04:47):
some time focusing on these everyday miracles that we take
for granted, things that our parents or grandparents might not
have taken for granted, things that we can no longer
take for granted. I want to talk about vaccines. Ooh, yes,
I like vaccines. Vaccines are cool as hell, easily in
(05:11):
the top five best things humans have come up with.
I don't know the other four on that list are,
but probably burritos. Specifically, I want to talk about the
polio vaccines. And I'm going to use the plural here
on purpose, because people talk about the polio vaccine as
if there's one vaccine, and there is a whole wild
(05:31):
history behind polio vaccines, and they have functionally, but not literally,
eradicated polio. Have you heard much of this story?
Speaker 1 (05:40):
No?
Speaker 3 (05:40):
But I do have a friend who works at the CDC.
She has not been fired yet, oh shit, yes, and
she is the biggest proponent of vaccines. She like, if
you catch her at a party, somehow vaccines will come up,
and a polio vaccin. It's one of her favorite stories
(06:02):
to tell. So I know it's got a history behind.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
It, and a different history than I thought it did.
Because this week's story is going to follow an arc
that is familiar to regular listeners of the show, and
that Sophie and I spend a lot of our time
complaining about in signal chats, which is that I start
off researching, usually a guy who is famous for having
accomplished something right, and then I spend a week researching.
(06:26):
I read most of a biography, I'd read a whole
bunch of other stuff. I get about ninety percent through
my research. When I find out something that makes me
have to change everything about the story.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
It happens all too often.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
It's so annoying. It has happened when I researched women before,
but it happens all the time with men, where you're like, oh,
and you're gonna like research this person and they're like, oh,
they kind of we're a horrible monster to the people
closest to them, or actually all of this is myth
making and they're a con artist, or just like whatever
it is.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
You know, Yeah, taking credit a lot of time.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Yeah, speaking of taking credit, you ever heard of a
guy named Jonas salk.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Have? Yes, this is.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
The man Sophia, you heard of this guy? No, I hadn't.
And I think that, like you and I live under
a specific rock, because like, at least everything I've read
has been like, ah, yes, the most household name medicine
person in the world. And I'm like, I've never heard
of this man. Yeah, what have you heard of? Jonas Soak?
Before I tell you about Jonahs Sak.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
I just knew he was involved in like medicine. I
just have heard his name from my elementary school days.
Perhaps that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Yeah, Jonas Sack, the man who defeated polio. He was
a Jewish guy raised poor in New York City from
a family of Eastern European immigrants. He worked his entire
life to fight disease and make the world a better place,
and along the way he became a sort of medical
rock star for his work developing a polio vaccine. He
(08:03):
is famous for saying he refused to patent this vaccine
because the world needed it. He said in an interview quote,
how can you patent the sun? And that what I
just read you is true? Ish, It is so close
to true that it is a massive fuck off. Lie.
(08:24):
Is such a lie? Fascinating and I like, I learned
that about seven hours ago.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
He learned something every day. I know, like the.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Fact that the thing you've been researching for five days nonstuff,
isn't it true.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
It's not even like true kind of it is.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
It's so true that it becomes a lie.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Oh okay.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
He did develop a polio vaccine. He developed the first
polio vaccine. The first functional one was we'll talk about it.
He didn't. Actually, we'll get to it. Okay. The first
polio vaccine that was widely tested is often called the
Salk vaccine, and he worked to do that with a
private anti communist foundation, one that claimed that public investment
(09:09):
in research was how communism would win in America, so
it couldn't be publicly funded. This is not reflecting the
politics of Jonah Sauk himself, but this is the organization
funded him. His vaccine saved uncountable lives, mostly white, middle
and upper class lives in the United States of America. Then,
(09:33):
another Eastern European Jewish man who also came up in
New York City, developed a polio vaccine in partnership between
American and Soviet scientists. This vaccine was cheap, more easily
administered and really slightly more dangerous by one context and
less dangerous by another context. That vaccine ended polio. After
(09:59):
polio is a effectively destroyed, the US went back to
Salks vaccine because when you have plenty of time and
medical facilities and can do booster shots and all that stuff,
Salks vaccine edges out a little bit. So it was
not Jonas Salk who beat polio. It wasn't even Albert Sabin,
who's this direct competitor, the one who I just said,
(10:23):
because no one person beat polio. It was an enormous
undertaking by thousands of researchers from across the world that
beat polio. And the Great Man theory of history is
once again a bunch of fucking garbage. And I didn't
know most of that when I wrote it this fucking episode,
So consider it a story about how myths are built.
(10:45):
But first we're gonna talk about polio. I don't know
anyone who's had polio to my knowledge, and that is
because I was born after these vaccines. Poliomyelitis is a
viral infection. Most infections are either bacterial or viral, and
this one's viral. It has been around for kind of forever,
(11:06):
at least thousands of years. It was first given a
name in eighteenth century, and then it started really fucking
people up in the nineteenth century. It actually the places
that first really hit was Europe and then the United
States in the nineteenth century. In nineteen oh eight or
nineteen oh nine, I have read both. A guy actually
looked really close and was like, I have seen the
(11:27):
actual virus that does this, and that has got to
be a strange time to be a scientist where you're like, ah,
I am looking through a microscope and seeing the actual object.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
Yes, I can't imagine back in those days where you
were just this looks different. I'm not sure why. Let
me try to come up with some reason. Just the
way we've understood viruses throughout time and how that's changed
is fascinating to me. Honestly.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Yeah, totally, And I'm kind of excited about all the
things that people are going to look back one hundred
years from now if they're still alive in the world's
and been cooked to death. But otherwise I'm like excited
about all the things. I'll be like, remember when people
thought the following, you know, right, Polio was absolutely terrifying
to people. It barely causes any symptoms in most people,
(12:19):
so it's easily transmitted. So like adults get it and
transmit it, but they don't they're not affected by it,
basically not. Most of the time, it is transmitted through
the fecal oral route, which is there's just like different
ways that you know, is the following think airborn. This
is the kind of fun thing that's fun to talk
about at parties. Actually, well, with your friend, it probably
is fun to talk about a parties.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
She does love talking about it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
My favorite thing I like bringing up is that hand
sanitizer doesn't do anything for fecal oral routes diseases, and
so you actually need to wash your hands after you
go to the bathroom. You can't just like use hand sanitizer. Yeah,
makes me real popular.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
Yeah, things are the fun things in life. You know.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
This is why I go to so many parties and
I'm invited everywhere.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
That sounds like you, Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
It is my goal to be invited to all the parties.
It is not my goal to go to all the parties.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Oh yeah, one hundred percent. I want to be invited,
but I'm not coming like please keep inviting me, because
if you don't, I'll be really sad about it. But
I'm not coming, I know, but if you're not reinvited,
which is fair but still not okay, no, okay, oh okay.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
The best is when you have a friend where you
can invite each other to things and you know it's
safe because you know that both of you are gonna
be like, eh, I gotta hang out with my dog today.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
Sorry, gotta have that like dog back burner.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Excuse, yeah, totally, I am good, my favorite the like, Oh.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
My dog is just kind of needs to get home soon.
My dog and I get socially exhausted. My dog has
to record some podcasts in the morning.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
There you go.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
So polio almost exclusively affects children, and I'm going to
get into it because polio might come back because of
the motherfucker in charge of the fucking anyway, whatever, we'll
get to that. When you first get polio, you get
a runny nose and a sore throat. Then you get
a fever, then horrible pain throughout all your muscles or
(14:20):
some of your muscles, depending, leaving you thrashing and misery
in your bed. Then when the fever breaks, it's not over.
It means the virus is moved from the blood to
the nervous system. Within a few days, your muscles become paralyzed,
but your body doesn't go numb. You can still feel
all your muscles, you just can't use them. Among people
(14:42):
catch it symptomatically like this. I have read a ten
percent mortality rate, and I have read a twenty five
percent mortality rate. I believe the lower number. It kills
you by paralyzing essential functions. If it goes up in
your brain, you will stop being able to swallow. You'll
foam at the mouth and drown.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
It's bad, It's really Yeah, that sounds terrible.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
You the listener have probably seen if you all seen
the pictures of iron lungs. Yes, yes, so they have
been used for other things. It's like, if your lungs
are paralyzed, this is the object that would help you
back in the day. Now we use intubation and other
things more often, although iron lungs have come back thanks
to COVID. Iron lungs are huge metal tubes that you
(15:25):
go into with only your head sticking out, and the
machine varies the air pressure, so it sort of breathes
for you. Your head's not in it. But basically it's
a like forces your chest to expand. It brings airs,
and it's like manually working of bellows. If your lungs
are paralyzed, you need this thing. Most people only spent
about two weeks or a couple of months in the
iron lung while recovering. But plenty of people and every
(15:46):
time I say people, when I'm talking about polio, I'm
talking about children. Plenty of children. Well, I guess in
this case, people live their entire lives in iron lungs.
There is one woman, Martha Lillard, who got polio nineteen
fifty three when she was five years old, who was
still alive as of when I looked, and still lives
in one. And she's having trouble finding parts to keep
(16:08):
her iron long in good repair because she's the only
person living in one. Long term left people often regained
some use of their muscles, but generally people were disabled
for life, and polio scared the piss out of everyone.
It was killing and paralyzing children. The most famous polio
survivor is Franklin Roosevelt, the progressively served as President of
(16:30):
this country for the longest and could scarcely walk and
relied on leg bracestm wheelchairs. So in nineteen sixteen there
was this massive polio outbreak in New York City. Basically,
summertime in major cities was polio's time to shine. Babies
were dying of polio at a fantastic and terrible rate,
one every two and a half hours. Jesus Christ, Yeah,
(16:55):
that's too often. There's I've read so many stories about
doctors who are like, I don't know, just like walking
through these wards and just being like watching children dying constantly.
And there's a lot of emotional stuff I didn't put
in this part of it. It's transmission wasn't yet understood.
People assumed it was airborne basically, and they tried everything
to stop it. Families were quarantined, windows were screened to
(17:18):
keep flies away, the trash got picked up extra well.
Those two things actually probably helped them. Playgrounds were shut down.
Kids had their noses and throats rinsed with salt water daily,
which has got to be one of the worst things
that I can imagine happening on a daily basis. Most tragically,
seventy two thousand stray cats were killed by the city
(17:40):
because people thought they spread it and none of it worked.
But you know, it did work to save everyone who
has polio, and Sophie, I think we can promise that
all of the following people are capable of curing polio. Yeah,
why not, it's our response. They're all legally capable of
(18:05):
understanding what parody is and not getting mad about this
ad transition. That's what they're capable of doing. Here's a
bunch of ads, and we're back. But unfortunately, they didn't
have the products that support this podcast yet, or they might.
(18:26):
I don't know what we got advertised. Some of that
stuff has been around for a while, but they didn't
have enough of it. They didn't even have podcasts back then.
They had to listen to people on soapboxes and radio.
And actually we've been doing basically the equivalent of podcasts forever.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
Yeah, I mean, honestly, like, if you're thinking about a
lot of this sounds like COVID to me, And I
feel like the whole manosphere thing that happened during COVID,
where people were isolated and they didn't have real information
and they were just like, I don't know, I don't
understand that a lot of negative things around health came
(19:06):
out out of that, and it's still impacting us to
this day, which I'm sure we'll talk about.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Yeah, there's a lot of overlaps between this and like
we will talk about some like really early anti vaxxers
during this, But there was actually this thing where like
it seems like from the reading that more people were
willing to trust experts than like currently.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
That's fun. Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
People started fleeing the city. And to be clear, there's
outbreaks everywhere, but New York City is like particularly bad.
Twelve hundred kids a day escaped the city with their
families for a little while, but then other cities soon
stopped letting them come in. Kids and babies were taken
to Kingston Avenue Hospital and quarantined for two months, away
(19:54):
from their families, and then cops would go around and
steal children from their families to take them to the
hospit all. I only got one sentence of that, and
I want to know more about what happened there. Was
it like you got a runny nose, Now you got
to go to the you know, quarantine, the death land.
I don't know, the.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Police are coming, you know, I have had a couple
of instances where I have had something like swine flu,
and basically they've been like, you're going to this quarantine zone.
And I didn't know what was happening, and they just
told me where to go.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Wait, you've been quarantined by who. What happened?
Speaker 3 (20:34):
I was quarantined just multiple times. One time when I
was flying into the US. That was when I had
bird flu. One time at college when I had swine flu,
uh huh, and they didn't want to report it because
if they had to report it, they would have shut
down the university. And then another time where a doctor
(20:59):
was just like, please go home and quarantine.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
I feel really great about that. That made me really confident.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
Yeah, they basically were like, just don't tell Anyboddy, go
back to your door.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
I feel really confident about the American education system. I
feel like we're really setting the priority straight.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
They did give me a mask and some clothes and
the instructions to stay in my room away from people
for a couple of days.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
So college kids are notoriously good at following instruction.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
Definitely socializing. It was also Halloween. I remember very specifically
Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
My Halloween costume is the person with mask and gloves.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
I did stay in my room.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
That's good.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
I did.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Yes, that's good. So if there's ever like a new
animal named flu, are you just personally convinced that you
are going to get it? Kind of like once there's
like a snake flu, I'm like staying away from you
for a while.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
I think that's fair. I think that's a really fair response. Honestly.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Well, just like the thing that saved you, the epidemics
stopped because summer stopped. Two four hundred people, mostly kids
under five, died in New York City that summer, and
around nine thousand were paralyzed. Nationwide, twenty seven thousand kids
died or paralyzed, and I don't know which because it
(22:23):
was confusingly written, and I tried across reference, but it
doesn't always work. It was a bad summer. Every summer
across the world, polio came back, and it mostly slowly
got worse. Fifteen thousand kids a year were disabled by
polio in the United States, and is peaked in nineteen
(22:44):
fifty two. In the early nineteen fifties, the thing that
most Americans were afraid of was nuclear war, which makes
sense The second thing after that that they were the
most afraid of was polio. And it's like one of
those things where it's like polio's is like an old
timey disease. You're like, oh, that could have been like
that bad. We're still around as a species, and I've
(23:04):
never met anyone in polio, you know, right, maybe most
people are better at thinking things through than I would
have been.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
But yeah, it had a huge impact though. I know
we've talked about it, but in terms of like the
ADA and all those kind of things.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Yeah, Yeah, one of the things that we're not going
to get into too much, but the start of the
disability rights movement and also the start of the concept
of physical therapy. Yeah, comes out of polio. And of
course that was done by a woman and isn't as
written about as much. And then I'm as guilty as
anyone else because instead I'm going to complain about a man.
That's the main thing I'm gonna do this episode.
Speaker 3 (23:41):
Yeah, I mean, you know, sometimes you've just got to
complain about a man.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Yeah, under totally, totally. In nineteen fifty five, the polio vaccine,
the first one was administered, and the way it's usually
presented is that basically overnight polio dropped from disabling fifteen
thousand kids a year to about one hundred cases a year.
(24:06):
This isn't true. It did start turning the tide dramatically,
but it wasn't until nineteen sixty two, I think when
the other vaccine that we'll talk about later came in
that it started dropping to one hundred cases a year.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
So was it a kind of marketing thing.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
It's that people want a simple history with a hero,
and Jonas Salk, the guy that we're going to talk about,
mostly was a hero. He stopped polio. You know, by
nineteen seventy nine. Polio is effectively eliminated in the United
States until the modern anti vax movement, which is basically
(24:49):
a death cult.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
Uh huh.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
In twenty twenty two, the US got some cases of
polio for the first time since nineteen seventy nine.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
Great, yeah, with RFK Junior charge moving forward, well, let's let's.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Talk about that real quick. RFK Junior soon to be
remembered as one of history's greatest monsters. Yes, he has
gone on record to say that the polio vaccine has
quote killed many, many, many, many many more people than
polio ever did such an idiot uh huh wow, because
(25:25):
he was like, oh, he like gives people cancer or something.
And also he claims that the vaccine didn't actually reduce
polio cases, that it is quote a mythology and quote
just not true. Studies have shown, of course, that the
polio vaccine does not cause cancer, and that polio has
been pretty much completely eliminated worldwide because of these vaccines.
(25:50):
Everyone of every political party who allowed RFK Junior to
come to power has fucking blood on their hands. Yeah,
polio is bad and it was real bad. And this
is the story about people developing the vaccine, but it
actually starts in its way with people fighting against the flu.
So we're gonna talk about the flu real quick too.
(26:12):
The flu is way harder to vaccinate against, although we
do it fairly well. Regardless, people should get their flu shots.
I never bothered because I was like, I'm young and
can do whatever. And then I like have a doctor
friend and he's like, that's not the point. The point
is that if you don't get it, old people die.
I'm also like closer and closer to an honorary old
(26:33):
person myself, but yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
I had the same thing where it's like I don't
need it. It just kind of makes me feel a little
off for a couple of days. Why should I get it?
And then somebody sat me down and was like, it's
not just about you. Yeah, yeah's kind of the point totally.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
And there's like some people who can't get the shot
at all because they're immuno compromised. I think there's seventeen
million people living in the US who have actual medical
reasons that they can't get vaccinated, do an immunocompromisation. Whatever.
We still successfully vaccinate against the flu, even though mutates
all the time, which is why it's like less effective. Right.
The polio vaccine was like good by polio, right, and
(27:15):
we haven't been able to say good bye flu. Polio
doesn't like to mutate all that much, but the flu
mutates like it's its full time job. You have the
polio outbreak of nineteen sixteen, and then you have the
Spanish flu, which is the closest COVID parallel, especially because
they wore masks and stuff. And this is a global
pandemic from nineteen eighteen to nineteen twenty, and this fucking
(27:37):
thing killed like twenty five to fifty million people and
a lot of people. Yeah. This was during World War One,
and the Spanish flu was as good at killing soldiers
as masked charges against machine guns was like World War
One was like when we were really bad at understanding
that you can't charge a machine gun, you know, and
(27:59):
so they would be like, Oh, to send more young,
poor people in front of that machine gun, that'll work.
I think for actual soldiers, combat deaths edges out. I
didn't write down the numbers, but they're in the running
with each other. The thing that really scared people about
the Spanish flu is that it was affecting healthier people
(28:19):
than the flu usually did, and we didn't have the
flu shot yet, but public health departments did their best.
I think there's kind of this interesting thing where it's
like people do try, you know, and you're like, oh,
they did things wrong, and you're like, yeah, yeah, but
they did things they Yeah, they did what was what
they thought they could, you know.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
Yeah, going back to my friends who works in the
health industry, they were trying to learn as much as
they could about in this case, COVID, but it was
constantly changing. They were getting new data. It was moving
so quickly. I can only imagine back in nineteen seventeen, yeah,
or nineteen thirteen. But yeah, yeah, in that area.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
In front of me.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
Yeah, yeah, I memorized you know that, Yeah, that wasn't
you didn't have ready access. Actually, that's kind of an
interesting juxtaposition of like, in some cases I think that
boone is having more access than maybe in other cases
it's kind of a detriment, which is what we're seeing
(29:25):
today in terms of you know, misinformation disformation. But oh yeah, totally,
but not that that didn't exist before. But yeah, but
she was saying that we were always trying to figure
it out as quickly as we could to get solutions
because there are also people who don't want their loved
ones to die, I know.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
And it's like, oh, you said last week it was this,
and you're like, yeah, you're aware that, Like the whole
point of science is to change your mind as new
information comes in, but then act on the best available
information the entire time. Like that doesn't feel like a
hard concept from my point of view.
Speaker 3 (30:01):
You know, yeah, no, that makes total sense that you
would get new information, take that in and then make
your informed opinion.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Yeah, and so in New York City, when the Spanish
flu came. They basically built a social distancing infrastructure. They
staggered business hours so that not everyone was on public
transit at once. They got rid of rush hour in
order to fight the flu. Oh wow, I wish they
would just do that anyway, what am I saying? I
live in the mountains. I haven't had to deal with
(30:33):
rush hour, and like, I don't remember how many years
they got.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Well it's painful.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Yeah, yeah, there's no one around. Yeah, like you like,
we have to like wait for a tractor. That's the
most annoying thing that I have to.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
Put up with, you know, hilarious.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
But then when you finally pass them, they're just like, oh, hey,
how's it going, you know, give the wave. Yeah. They
also got theaters to sell only half their seats to people,
so you have an empty seat next to you. And
people started covering their mouths when coughing, which was a
new technology at the time.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
Wow, I love this. See I do the vampire cough.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Yeah no, yeah, we've moved from hands to the yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Bodies piled up unburied, and in nineteen eighteen, twenty one
thousand New York City children were orphaned, and that is
the New York city that our main character of the
week was born into, the one that his competitor would
move to. Jonas Salk was called a hero, and he
seemed to kind of revel in that identity. There's a
(31:42):
lot of like arguments this is a man that there
are hagiography is about. This is a man where they're like,
either he's just a complete piece of garbage or like
almost everything you read about it is like he's just
basically the best. This is Jesus walking amongst us. You know,
much like Jesus. He was Jewish, he was hard working
as fuck, and he tirelessly worked to make the world better.
(32:05):
He also wasn't the only person doing this work.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Also, we'll get to this at the end. He was
like a eugenicist and had really wild ideas and it
was a real sketchy.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
Oh that's fun, Tea said.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
His wife dihorsed him and for pretty solid reasons. And anyway,
we'll get to that.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
Did it go, girl, Yeah, you're a eugenicist. I think
I should get out of it.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
I was like, yeah, yeah, And I think there were
a lot of breakups around Trump's election, you know, I
think that there was a lot of people who are like, oh,
I could put up with my boyfriend until this is
just the step too far, this is too real now.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure I.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Met someone who would that basically happened to and I
don't feel bad for him at all, but I'm like, oh,
I'm so sorry that you wait. Nope, never mind. Anyway,
Jonahsok wasn't the only person doing this work around vaccines,
and people have complained about him taking credit for more
than his own work. And he started off his life
(33:09):
as a leftist. He was actually investigated by the FBI
for communist sympathies. Then he moved to a political and
he wound up writing mystical eugenesis shit about how scientists
should control the human race genetically by introducing viruses into
people's embryos. That's the big medical hero the twentieth century,
Jonas Salk. But one thing that Jonas Salk had access to, no,
(33:37):
he didn't. Actually he raised very poor. Well, I bet
some of our products and services were actually affordable. So
probably because some of them are just losing your life
to Anyway, here's some ads. I love all of them
and have no complicated feelings about the nature of my work.
Here they are. We're back and we're talking to Jonas
(34:00):
Salk born with no middle name, but he's going to
get one in an interesting way.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
Can't wait.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
That's my teaser. And it's not like me just adding
a eugenicist in quotas the middle name or whatever. No,
he actually gets an actual middle name. Jonah Salk was
born on October twenty eighth, nineteen fourteen, in East Harlem
in a tenement building. He was the first son of
Dora and Daniel Salk. His mother was a Russian Jew
from what's now Belarus. Her own parents had owned a
(34:29):
tavern in Minsk. Dora came over to Manhattan with her
family when she was thirteen, where she lived with others
in the wildly overcrowded tenements of the Lower East Side
and worked in the garment industry, which was not known
for good working conditions. And people who've listened to this
show and order have much of a grasp know that
the reason that Jews were leaving the Russian Empire is
that the Pograms were real not nice. The family did
(34:56):
fairly well for themselves, and Dora became a foreman at
the you know, tenement of sewing garment industry whatever. I
don't know the name of the place she worked, and
the family moved to East Harlem, where like more people
had like actual homes, but were still kind of crowded
into them. This is a like move from like poverty
(35:17):
to lower middle class. That's the best I can tell, Okay.
Jonas's dad, Daniel, was a Lithuanian Jews born in the
US and a lace maker who designed women's neckwear. He
was quiet and humble. His mom was driven in loud.
I have read so many biographies for this work where
they just like really want to complain about overbearing moms,
(35:37):
to the point where I actually just question everything about
the way the history is presented.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
Yeah, I think the history of the overbearing mom, I
always question it every time I see it.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
I'm like, yeah, in this case, Jonas likes his mom
and appreciates that she was a taskmaster.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
Okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
When they wound up with Jonas their eldest kid, mom
was very active in directing his education and making sure
he started reading right away. And shit, she became a
stay at home mom and was apparently kind of domineering.
Our boy, Jonas skipped a bunch of grades, was very quiet,
ignored sports, and read books. He wasn't a very happy kid.
(36:25):
His mother treated him like an adult pretty much right away.
But he never blamed anything on his mother and said
that he inherited her work ethic and is very grateful
for it. And it is important to this story that
he is a Jewish kid, the child of an immigrant.
His Judaism is important to his work. He's not necessarily
like super observant near the end of his life as
a kid, he is, but though like cultural and sort
(36:49):
of theological underpinions remain important to him. I believe his
entire life he consciously accepts the Jewish obligation of takun alum,
which is repairing the world. You have an obligation to
make the world a better place, which is I think
cool as hell, although obviously people can interpret that to
me and I want to inject viruses and the children
(37:09):
to make them have different you know, genetic structures. But
first he just saves millions of lives.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
Right, you know, at this level.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Yeah, and he doesn't do any of the philosophical stuff
he dreams of later. So the thing he practically.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
Does, it just seems a dream he has in his head.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
I like went back and forth like four times already.
I had a moment where I was like, do I
have to just scrap this and styling, and I'm like,
he's just actually complicated and overall not looking great, but
he's still interesting. Early on, he decides that he wants
to work relieving the suffering of the sick and the injured.
And there's so much myth making about this guy, and
(37:50):
like there's like things you'll read where he's like he
saw the nineteen sixteen and nineteen eighteen pandemics, and I'm like, no,
he didn't. He was like three years old. He did, though,
grow up in the wake of those crises, and he
absolutely grew up knowing people who were paralyzed and dealing
with a lot of disability as a result of folio.
(38:11):
When he was twelve, he went to an all boys
prep school for City College. This school is free, but
it's incredibly hard to get into, which means that it's
mostly the children of immigrants who go there, and especially
Jewish immigrants based on the demographics of New York at
the time. I like grew up so outside of this concept.
This place is is like preppy I like didn't understand
(38:33):
what a prep school was. This place is as preppy
as a prep school can prep. Their school newspaper is
in Latin.
Speaker 3 (38:42):
Oh okay.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Yeah, it is more of a humanities school than a
stem school. And once he was there, he did not
stand out. He was class secretary, but not class president.
The only thing that stood out about him was that
he was a sharp dresser. He was quiet and dedicated
and figured he'd become a lawyer or a politician to
(39:06):
make the world better. Once again, politicians famously always making
the world better.
Speaker 3 (39:11):
Definitely. Also just like I guess I'll just be a lawyer, yeah,
or a politician.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Yeah, whatever ever makes the world better. One of those
things I don't know. Yes, he was a prep school nerd.
He was in the Current History Society, and he was
in the Law and Debate Society. Oh wow, the Law
and Debate Society is one society. So that sounds extra miserable.
Speaker 3 (39:37):
That sounds really intense. Yeah, law and debate, yeah, not
just debate. Yeah, we must have the law.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
Whoever wins the debate gets to tell everyone who lives
and dies, so it's going to be totally normal.
Speaker 3 (39:49):
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
He was the advertising manager for the yearbook and assistant
business manager of the school paper. They get a picture
of this guy, you're just like, he doesn't have a
lot of friends, Like, no one hates him. He's just there,
you know.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
Yeah, he was doing a lot. We must say it was.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
You want to guess what year he started college?
Speaker 3 (40:08):
No, yeah, he least.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Don't make me he was fifteen years old when he
started college, because of course he fucking was.
Speaker 3 (40:15):
Oh gosh.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
He went to City College, which is what it was
a prep school for that he went to. And City
College was prestigious and free, and it was also eighty
percent Jewish because it was the place that immigrant kids
can go to. He barely made any friends. He was
going to do pre law, but then his mom was like, no,
you'd be terrible as a lawyer. You can't even beat
(40:37):
me in an argument, ow because he's not very like assertive,
you know.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Yeah, So he went into pre med and then his
mom was like, now you're too weak to be a doctor.
You should be a teacher.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
Mom, sounds fun.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
And he stood up for himself again he's myth making
against his overbearon mom, who he actually loved. He was like, no,
I like medicine.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
He doesn't have a wife to blame at this point.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
But he will have a wife to blame soon, don't worry. Yeah, yeah,
give it to that.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Men like this always have some woman where like it
was her.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
Yeah. Absolutely. He was like, I'm going to do medicine,
but I don't want to be a doctor. I want
to do medical science. He had read a book about
Louis Pasteur, the guy who did one a vaccine or whatever,
and he was like, all right, vaccines and shit, that's
my fucking thing. The problem with this, there's this free
(41:30):
school and it's full of Jewish immigrant kids, is that
higher education was anti Semitic and had informal caps on
the number of Jewish kids admitted. So it was very
hard for the city college kids to get into higher schools,
like once they finished their undergrad This entire establishment was
built and funded to help the children of immigrants, but
(41:50):
there's like a serious glass ceiling put into place by
WASP America. So Jonah Sulk applied everywhere and every place
rejected him. Mixed one. So we went to what's now
called the New York University College of Medicine. His interest
was in medical research and so people were like, just
get a PhD instead of an MD, and he was like, no,
(42:11):
I'm going to be a doctor, just a research doctor.
And in this new school he was entirely unremarkable and forgettable.
He barely made any friends. He lived at home with
his overbearing mom. Sorry anyway, oh god. He had to
find work to pay for school. So we started working
in research, and he was good at medical research right away.
(42:34):
If you were interested in animal rights, this man is
not a hero.
Speaker 3 (42:38):
I was just one of the many maybe categories we
can say.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
Yeah, and that one's like a style at the time thing,
and like animal testing is a complicated subject that I
don't want to get into the morality of anyway, whatever,
he starts working in research, and he is good at
this shit right away. His second research project was to
cultivate scarlet fever, or rather the bacteria that causes it,
and give rabbit scarlet fever. He improved the process of
(43:04):
cultivating bacteria, speeding it up by a factor of seven,
and got his first paper published in an academic journal
when he was twenty two. So this is like kind
of the first time he's like really like standing out, you.
Speaker 3 (43:18):
Know, yeah, is overbearing mom.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
Yeah, we're all doing air quotes this whole time. I
think everyone can hear it in our voices.
Speaker 3 (43:26):
I hope you can hear it an air quote. Yeah,
has been like, you're not good at this, You're not
good at this. He's been a part of all these
organizations and now has something that he feels good at.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (43:40):
It's really painting a picture of somebody who was trying
a bunch of things and looking for the one thing
that they would really excel at.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
Yeah, totally. He's good at this stuff. He might not
be as groundbreaking as people later paint him, but he
is genuinely good at this stuff. And when he gets
interested in vaccines, there are a few bacterial vaccines and
a few viral vaccines around, and bacterial vaccines can be
(44:12):
made using dead bacteria, but viral vaccines at the time,
like for smallpox, rabies, and yellow fever, they had to
be made out of weakened but live viruses. So you
isolate a virus, beat it up, tell it that it's
no good, never going to amount to anything, and then
(44:32):
you inject that into someone and this is seen as
an axiom. Viral infections can only be vaccinated against by
live viruses and live virus vaccines are inherently a bit riskier.
People still use them, and actually it's going to be
a live virus that's going to actually get rid of folio.
(44:54):
Live vaccines are more likely to provide lifelong immunity. You
and everyone listening to this as likely had both, and
if you haven't, then get mad at your parents for
not vaccinating you and go get vaccinated. But live vaccines
are not always appropriate. The flu shot we use now
is an inactive vaccine. It's a dead virus vaccine. And
(45:14):
Jonas Sulk is part of why we get the flu shot.
He was working for a virologist named Thomas Francis Junior,
who was the first man to isolate the flu virus
and later who developed the flu shot, or led the
research team that developed the flu shot. There's a lot
of I mean, no one's like writing hagiographies about him,
but you know he's part of a team. Thomas had
(45:38):
Jonas try to stimulate antibodies in mice with that flu virus.
The basic idea of vaccines, which people probably know, but
in case you don't, say, either contain antibodies to a
viral or bacterial infection or they convince your body to
make its own antibodies, which is even better. So Jonas
is working to stimulate antibodies in mice with dead flu
(45:59):
virus like a normal person who has normal hobbies. I'm
actually gratefully did this. I'm not complaining.
Speaker 3 (46:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
Meanwhile, he fell for a woman named Donna Lindsay, who
was an inch taller than him and from a rich
family and was pursuing her master's in social work at
this point. They're both leftists, and they shared a desire
to make the world better. This does not sound like
a really great romance. He was completely smitten with her
and she was like, I don't know. And I've read
(46:32):
it described in multiple places as he basically kind of
wore her down until she was like final, marry you.
Speaker 3 (46:38):
Yeah. She was like I don't need you. I'm good.
Speaker 2 (46:43):
But he yeah, he persisted, which means that she's going
to have to like give up her career and like
raise their kids, and like it was a you know,
it was the early twentieth century.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
It was like the type of romances that we still
unfortunate sometimes paint romantically, but at the time was very
romantic of just a man being like I got her eventually,
I wore her dad. Yeah, she saw how smart I was.
I'm not a nerd.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
Yeah, totally. Well, and he's like, she's so beautiful, and
she's always like he's all right, I don't know. He
graduated on June eighth, nineteen thirty nine, and he and
Donna got married on June ninth, nineteen thirty nine, the
very next day. And the reason it happened in this
(47:34):
order is that she's from this like wealthy Jewish family,
and his parents don't like that her family isn't really
practicing Jewish, but her family doesn't like that his family
is poor. Donna's dad is already pretty mad that his
daughter is marrying below her station, so he insisted that
(47:54):
it be done after he graduated, so that the announcement
could say Jonas Edward Sulk MD. And you might be
thinking to yourself, but doesn't he not have a middle name? Well,
Donna's dad was mad that Jonas didn't have a middle
name had not been properly anglicized, so he insisted that
(48:16):
Jonas take Edward as a middle name. So he gets
his middle name from his father in law, who's like,
you are an Edward.
Speaker 3 (48:26):
Wow, there's also something to be said about you know what,
the day after you graduate, we're just going to take
out all the air out of what you.
Speaker 2 (48:37):
Did, Yeah and put it here totally, totally.
Speaker 3 (48:42):
Yeah, that was a real move. Okay.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
So he's married now and I think he moves out
of the house. He has a two year internship at
a research hospital and he wanted to keep doing virology,
but he was Jewish and he wasn't from an ivy league,
so he kept getting turned down everywhere. Hill His former supervisor,
Thomas Franz and Junior, the guy who had him testing
dead viruses on mice, brought him out to ann Arbor,
(49:06):
Michigan to keep working on influenza. Eventually, Donna's going to
be like, I'm you can't just fucking drag me all
over the country for your shitty fucking research and then
ignore me all the time. But that hasn't happened yet,
and he like never talked about her or their relationship,
like would be shocked to know anyway, they're out ann Arbor,
(49:28):
Thomas Francis Junior and some others had developed a vaccine
ready for human trials for the first time for the
flu shot and the lab rats that they were going
to use for this were patients at state hospitals for
people with severe mental illnesses who were not in any
way able to provide meaningful consent.
Speaker 3 (49:46):
Yeah. I love that.
Speaker 2 (49:48):
History is a nightmare land.
Speaker 3 (49:50):
Yah okay.
Speaker 2 (49:56):
Jonas Salk spoke at the end of his life about
the importance of taking calculate risks in order to advance science.
He seemed to genuinely consider the human costs of those risks,
but he sure took a lot of them. He oversaw
eight thousand patients who got the vaccine or a placebo.
Antibodies went up, but there was no flu that season,
(50:18):
so they couldn't really prove anything. So they were like, ah,
the problem is that none of these people got the flu.
Option A, Oh, no way to hear. Option B. Take
infected mouse lung tissue and spray it into people's noses
who are not able to consent because they have severe
mental illnesses and rewards of the state. He goes for
(50:40):
Option B.
Speaker 3 (50:42):
Yep, that's what I was afraid of. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:47):
This kind of thing did not fall out of style
until the Nuremberg Trials of nineteen forty seven, when people
were like, maybe there should be ethical standards for testing
on people.
Speaker 3 (50:58):
Yeah, maybe there's a lot of stuff that the Nazis
did that was kind of just what everyone in the
West was doing, but cranked up like three notches.
Speaker 2 (51:07):
You know, Yeah, and it made everyone feel like, oh,
were we doing.
Speaker 3 (51:12):
Let's really go for it. Yeah, if we're gonna do it,
let's just go yeah, and made everybody else be like,
oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
You'd think they'd be like, maybe this eugenics thing is
no good, but it actually took decades before the West
got over their obsession with eugenics. Some people like Sock
died obsessed with I don't know if he defined what
he did as eugenics. I couldn't actually find the answer
to that, but we'll talk about that later. This worked,
the flu shots and the giving people the flu without
their permission. The control group got the flu at about
(51:43):
fifty percent, while the vaccinated folks got it at sixteen percent,
so it was very effective at stopping the flu that year.
In nineteen forty three, they got to show the world
that they'd done good as a flu epidemic spread. Twelve
five hundred soldiers were put into a try no need
to spray infected mouse lungs into their noses because there's
actually a flu this year and only two percent of
(52:07):
the inoculated folks got sick, and the mental patients who
had been tested on the year before were still immune.
So dead viruses can work. And that's where we're going
to leave it today. Our hero is doing great things.
It's just messy. This is just like like he's not
in any way acting abnormally to what he does for
(52:30):
work at this point, and that's just an indictment of
people refusing to think about ethics.
Speaker 3 (52:37):
Wow, well, I'm very eager to see the downfall of
this year. Oh that doesn't happen like the teas of
the downfall.
Speaker 2 (52:46):
No, he die as a hero.
Speaker 3 (52:49):
Ah Okay.
Speaker 2 (52:51):
I started researching him because people painted a real pretty
picture of him, and I was like, he's going to
win to cover because you can paint a real pretty
picture of this man. And like maybe this is just
like a no Heroes moment right where you're like, well, yeah,
whoever does this kind of work is going to have
a willingness to hurt people to help people in a
(53:12):
way that is like morally messy. But I still kind
of come down on this particular guy not so great.
Speaker 3 (53:21):
In the end, I think taking in the complexities of
anybody is good. Yeah, and then like science, weighing the
information you get and forming your opinion.
Speaker 2 (53:34):
Ah, all right, well instead of telling the listener what
to think about this man, you mean, I should just
continue to explain this story and then interesting. Although I
didn't name this cool people did cool stuff, so I
always feel like I got to kind of specifically be like,
this man is not worthy of the title. But the
thing that happened, the creation of a polio vaccine is.
Speaker 3 (53:56):
Yeah, well that's also complicated, you know, was just called
cool stuff too.
Speaker 2 (54:01):
Yeah, totally, it's just cool stuff. Well, if people are like,
but I want to hear you any Reese on the
podcast more, but I don't want to wait till Wednesday.
What can they do?
Speaker 3 (54:12):
Well, you can find me on stuff when I ever
told you, or savor wherever you get your podcast and
I'm out and about but not really yeah, fair enough,
I don't even know why say yeah, but yes, you
can find me there.
Speaker 2 (54:25):
I finally post on Instagram like yesterday, being like I'm
not checking Dmazon here anymore. I am so tired of
meta with a company.
Speaker 3 (54:33):
Yeah, yeah, pretty much.
Speaker 2 (54:36):
That's where I am still on Blue Sky. You can
find me there. I'm on Substack find me there. And
podcasts and also what podcast I listened to this week
that I was like, I can't wait to plug this one.
Speaker 3 (54:49):
On air now.
Speaker 2 (54:51):
I don't remember what it was. I don't know. Sorry,
it was probably sixteenth minute, but I don't even remember
what the most recent sixteenth minute was.
Speaker 1 (54:59):
So it's about the Hawk Tua sec scandal.
Speaker 2 (55:03):
Oh, I mean I did listen to that, but I.
Speaker 1 (55:05):
Was like, that doesn't seem like something you'd be like, wow, wow,
wow about really great episode by the way she.
Speaker 2 (55:10):
Listened, it is a good episode. Good yeah, and it
was a good update to it.
Speaker 1 (55:12):
I don't know, but like financial scandal, not really your
What was the.
Speaker 2 (55:16):
Most recent Hood Politics?
Speaker 3 (55:17):
Maybe? Is that politics?
Speaker 1 (55:19):
A great show?
Speaker 3 (55:21):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (55:21):
Well, listen to Hood Politics with prop and sixteenth minute
and everything else from cool Zone Media and everything else
that Annie Reese does, and listen to all of it
before Wednesday, because I will be quizzing you.
Speaker 3 (55:33):
Yeah, all right, hi everyone? Ye.
Speaker 1 (55:38):
Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of
cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media,
visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com or check us out
on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
your podcasts.
Cool Zone Media.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Hello, and welcome to Cool People Did Cool Stuff. You're
a weekly reminder that when there's bad things, there's people
trying to do good things. I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy,
and this week I have a guest. I guess I
usually have a guest, but this week I have a
guest named Annie Reese. Hi, how are you?
Speaker 3 (00:19):
I'm good. I feel like that's a loaded question these days,
but yes, I'm good. How are you?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I'm also good with air quotes everywhere.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Yes, I'm very excited to be here.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Yeah, I'm excited to have you on. And if people
haven't heard of you, which is surprising, you are one
of the hosts of Stuff Mom Never told You. And
you're also a host of Savor, which is a food podcast,
and I haven't actually heard that one yet, But I
am learning more and more about how I care about
food in terms of culture and politics and history and stuff.
(00:52):
And I just really appreciate y'all's tagline there's no you
and Savor.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Thank you. We Actually the show is big on puns
and oh good bad jokes, if you'll allow me to say,
but yes, that is a huge part of Savors that
I feel like a lot of times people divorce food
from politics when they really shouldn't, and history when they
really shouldn't. And there's just so much to learn from
(01:20):
what you're eating every day. So that's my bitch for saver.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
I want to hear it now. I like stuff mom'
never told you, and I think people will like these
things too. And if there's one thing you can say
about the current administration, this is not going to be
an episode about the current administration. Oh, I have to
do the rest of the introductions, including Sophie, who's our producer? Hi, Sophie.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Damn, it's just gonna forget me. I got a bright
prank hat on.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
I never forget you, Sophie.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
I would never forget Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
And good house plants always good house.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Plans, Thank you. Pretty bushy behind me today, I'm like, oh,
I want to touch it.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
We also have a new audio and who's Eva. Everyone's
to say hi to Eva, Hi Eva.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
Hi Eva, Hiva. Eva's great.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
He's gonna put that out there.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yeah, and actually Eva's been editing Our book Club, one
of my other shows. They cools on Media book Club
for a while.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Now, don't worry, we didn't get rid of Rory. Rory's
just working on a different project.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Yeah, mining coal. Yeah, actually not doing the mining of
the coal. But if you hang out in a cage,
you can keep track of when there's bad chemicals in
the air.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
I feel like we should make people at least, you know,
say haw to Rory one more time. I think, Hello, Rory, Hi,
Ri Hi Ory, if you want to say hi Rory more.
He's editing behind the bastards now.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
So I am, well, okay, the current administration thing.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Yeah, what's going on there? That was like a really
wild little teaser you did.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
So I went and did a Have you all ever
heard of lavender graduations?
Speaker 3 (02:56):
No? No, I have not.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
I hadn't, and I'm kind of embarrassed that I hadn't.
It's LGBT groups on college campuses have a graduation ceremony.
And I went and did a talk at one yesterday.
As we record this, and I was very like, how
is this gonna go? They hired a kind of fiery
(03:18):
anarchist to come give them their LGBT speech. I'm going
to tell them about gay people who had burned down
Nazi records. And then it kind of helped realizing that
everyone is really aware that things aren't okay right now,
So that was kind of actually promising. So in a
weird way, the one nice thing you can say about
(03:39):
the current situation is that no one has their head
in the sands in the same degree anymore.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
That's fair.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Did it go well, Oh yeah, the event went great.
It was really heartwarming. Actually, it was a very like, oh,
the kids are all right kind of moment, which is
condescending to say because they're not kids. There are like
twenty two I don't know how people are when they
graduate college.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Who knows. Two.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Yeah. So if there is one thing this does actually
relate to what we're gonna talk about this week and
a lot in the near future. If there's one thing
I can say about the current administration of the United States,
it's that it has made us realize that there's an
awful lot of stuff we take for granted. Right, Like,
I've never been a big like government person, this is
(04:26):
true about me, right, but I'm a big like social
services person. But I'm like, oh, there's all of these
things that are really really good that we try to
do as a society, and we like stuff that society
tends to do for us. And a lot of that
stuff is being taken away. So I've decided to spend
(04:47):
some time focusing on these everyday miracles that we take
for granted, things that our parents or grandparents might not
have taken for granted, things that we can no longer
take for granted. I want to talk about vaccines. Ooh, yes,
I like vaccines. Vaccines are cool as hell, easily in
(05:11):
the top five best things humans have come up with.
I don't know the other four on that list are,
but probably burritos. Specifically, I want to talk about the
polio vaccines. And I'm going to use the plural here
on purpose, because people talk about the polio vaccine as
if there's one vaccine, and there is a whole wild
(05:31):
history behind polio vaccines, and they have functionally, but not literally,
eradicated polio. Have you heard much of this story?
Speaker 1 (05:40):
No?
Speaker 3 (05:40):
But I do have a friend who works at the CDC.
She has not been fired yet, oh shit, yes, and
she is the biggest proponent of vaccines. She like, if
you catch her at a party, somehow vaccines will come up,
and a polio vaccin. It's one of her favorite stories
(06:02):
to tell. So I know it's got a history behind.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
It, and a different history than I thought it did.
Because this week's story is going to follow an arc
that is familiar to regular listeners of the show, and
that Sophie and I spend a lot of our time
complaining about in signal chats, which is that I start
off researching, usually a guy who is famous for having
accomplished something right, and then I spend a week researching.
(06:26):
I read most of a biography, I'd read a whole
bunch of other stuff. I get about ninety percent through
my research. When I find out something that makes me
have to change everything about the story.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
It happens all too often.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
It's so annoying. It has happened when I researched women before,
but it happens all the time with men, where you're like, oh,
and you're gonna like research this person and they're like, oh,
they kind of we're a horrible monster to the people
closest to them, or actually all of this is myth
making and they're a con artist, or just like whatever
it is.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
You know, Yeah, taking credit a lot of time.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Yeah, speaking of taking credit, you ever heard of a
guy named Jonas salk.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Have? Yes, this is.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
The man Sophia, you heard of this guy? No, I hadn't.
And I think that, like you and I live under
a specific rock, because like, at least everything I've read
has been like, ah, yes, the most household name medicine
person in the world. And I'm like, I've never heard
of this man. Yeah, what have you heard of? Jonas Soak?
Before I tell you about Jonahs Sak.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
I just knew he was involved in like medicine. I
just have heard his name from my elementary school days.
Perhaps that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Yeah, Jonas Sack, the man who defeated polio. He was
a Jewish guy raised poor in New York City from
a family of Eastern European immigrants. He worked his entire
life to fight disease and make the world a better place,
and along the way he became a sort of medical
rock star for his work developing a polio vaccine. He
(08:03):
is famous for saying he refused to patent this vaccine
because the world needed it. He said in an interview quote,
how can you patent the sun? And that what I
just read you is true? Ish, It is so close
to true that it is a massive fuck off. Lie.
(08:24):
Is such a lie? Fascinating and I like, I learned
that about seven hours ago.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
He learned something every day. I know, like the.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Fact that the thing you've been researching for five days nonstuff,
isn't it true.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
It's not even like true kind of it is.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
It's so true that it becomes a lie.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Oh okay.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
He did develop a polio vaccine. He developed the first
polio vaccine. The first functional one was we'll talk about it.
He didn't. Actually, we'll get to it. Okay. The first
polio vaccine that was widely tested is often called the
Salk vaccine, and he worked to do that with a
private anti communist foundation, one that claimed that public investment
(09:09):
in research was how communism would win in America, so
it couldn't be publicly funded. This is not reflecting the
politics of Jonah Sauk himself, but this is the organization
funded him. His vaccine saved uncountable lives, mostly white, middle
and upper class lives in the United States of America. Then,
(09:33):
another Eastern European Jewish man who also came up in
New York City, developed a polio vaccine in partnership between
American and Soviet scientists. This vaccine was cheap, more easily
administered and really slightly more dangerous by one context and
less dangerous by another context. That vaccine ended polio. After
(09:59):
polio is a effectively destroyed, the US went back to
Salks vaccine because when you have plenty of time and
medical facilities and can do booster shots and all that stuff,
Salks vaccine edges out a little bit. So it was
not Jonas Salk who beat polio. It wasn't even Albert Sabin,
who's this direct competitor, the one who I just said,
(10:23):
because no one person beat polio. It was an enormous
undertaking by thousands of researchers from across the world that
beat polio. And the Great Man theory of history is
once again a bunch of fucking garbage. And I didn't
know most of that when I wrote it this fucking episode,
So consider it a story about how myths are built.
(10:45):
But first we're gonna talk about polio. I don't know
anyone who's had polio to my knowledge, and that is
because I was born after these vaccines. Poliomyelitis is a
viral infection. Most infections are either bacterial or viral, and
this one's viral. It has been around for kind of forever,
(11:06):
at least thousands of years. It was first given a
name in eighteenth century, and then it started really fucking
people up in the nineteenth century. It actually the places
that first really hit was Europe and then the United
States in the nineteenth century. In nineteen oh eight or
nineteen oh nine, I have read both. A guy actually
looked really close and was like, I have seen the
(11:27):
actual virus that does this, and that has got to
be a strange time to be a scientist where you're like, ah,
I am looking through a microscope and seeing the actual object.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
Yes, I can't imagine back in those days where you
were just this looks different. I'm not sure why. Let
me try to come up with some reason. Just the
way we've understood viruses throughout time and how that's changed
is fascinating to me. Honestly.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Yeah, totally, And I'm kind of excited about all the
things that people are going to look back one hundred
years from now if they're still alive in the world's
and been cooked to death. But otherwise I'm like excited
about all the things. I'll be like, remember when people
thought the following, you know, right, Polio was absolutely terrifying
to people. It barely causes any symptoms in most people,
(12:19):
so it's easily transmitted. So like adults get it and
transmit it, but they don't they're not affected by it,
basically not. Most of the time, it is transmitted through
the fecal oral route, which is there's just like different
ways that you know, is the following think airborn. This
is the kind of fun thing that's fun to talk
about at parties. Actually, well, with your friend, it probably
is fun to talk about a parties.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
She does love talking about it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
My favorite thing I like bringing up is that hand
sanitizer doesn't do anything for fecal oral routes diseases, and
so you actually need to wash your hands after you
go to the bathroom. You can't just like use hand sanitizer. Yeah,
makes me real popular.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
Yeah, things are the fun things in life. You know.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
This is why I go to so many parties and
I'm invited everywhere.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
That sounds like you, Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
It is my goal to be invited to all the parties.
It is not my goal to go to all the parties.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Oh yeah, one hundred percent. I want to be invited,
but I'm not coming like please keep inviting me, because
if you don't, I'll be really sad about it. But
I'm not coming, I know, but if you're not reinvited,
which is fair but still not okay, no, okay, oh okay.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
The best is when you have a friend where you
can invite each other to things and you know it's
safe because you know that both of you are gonna
be like, eh, I gotta hang out with my dog today.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
Sorry, gotta have that like dog back burner.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Excuse, yeah, totally, I am good, my favorite the like, Oh.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
My dog is just kind of needs to get home soon.
My dog and I get socially exhausted. My dog has
to record some podcasts in the morning.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
There you go.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
So polio almost exclusively affects children, and I'm going to
get into it because polio might come back because of
the motherfucker in charge of the fucking anyway, whatever, we'll
get to that. When you first get polio, you get
a runny nose and a sore throat. Then you get
a fever, then horrible pain throughout all your muscles or
(14:20):
some of your muscles, depending, leaving you thrashing and misery
in your bed. Then when the fever breaks, it's not over.
It means the virus is moved from the blood to
the nervous system. Within a few days, your muscles become paralyzed,
but your body doesn't go numb. You can still feel
all your muscles, you just can't use them. Among people
(14:42):
catch it symptomatically like this. I have read a ten
percent mortality rate, and I have read a twenty five
percent mortality rate. I believe the lower number. It kills
you by paralyzing essential functions. If it goes up in
your brain, you will stop being able to swallow. You'll
foam at the mouth and drown.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
It's bad, It's really Yeah, that sounds terrible.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
You the listener have probably seen if you all seen
the pictures of iron lungs. Yes, yes, so they have
been used for other things. It's like, if your lungs
are paralyzed, this is the object that would help you
back in the day. Now we use intubation and other
things more often, although iron lungs have come back thanks
to COVID. Iron lungs are huge metal tubes that you
(15:25):
go into with only your head sticking out, and the
machine varies the air pressure, so it sort of breathes
for you. Your head's not in it. But basically it's
a like forces your chest to expand. It brings airs,
and it's like manually working of bellows. If your lungs
are paralyzed, you need this thing. Most people only spent
about two weeks or a couple of months in the
iron lung while recovering. But plenty of people and every
(15:46):
time I say people, when I'm talking about polio, I'm
talking about children. Plenty of children. Well, I guess in
this case, people live their entire lives in iron lungs.
There is one woman, Martha Lillard, who got polio nineteen
fifty three when she was five years old, who was
still alive as of when I looked, and still lives
in one. And she's having trouble finding parts to keep
(16:08):
her iron long in good repair because she's the only
person living in one. Long term left people often regained
some use of their muscles, but generally people were disabled
for life, and polio scared the piss out of everyone.
It was killing and paralyzing children. The most famous polio
survivor is Franklin Roosevelt, the progressively served as President of
(16:30):
this country for the longest and could scarcely walk and
relied on leg bracestm wheelchairs. So in nineteen sixteen there
was this massive polio outbreak in New York City. Basically,
summertime in major cities was polio's time to shine. Babies
were dying of polio at a fantastic and terrible rate,
one every two and a half hours. Jesus Christ, Yeah,
(16:55):
that's too often. There's I've read so many stories about
doctors who are like, I don't know, just like walking
through these wards and just being like watching children dying constantly.
And there's a lot of emotional stuff I didn't put
in this part of it. It's transmission wasn't yet understood.
People assumed it was airborne basically, and they tried everything
to stop it. Families were quarantined, windows were screened to
(17:18):
keep flies away, the trash got picked up extra well.
Those two things actually probably helped them. Playgrounds were shut down.
Kids had their noses and throats rinsed with salt water daily,
which has got to be one of the worst things
that I can imagine happening on a daily basis. Most tragically,
seventy two thousand stray cats were killed by the city
(17:40):
because people thought they spread it and none of it worked.
But you know, it did work to save everyone who
has polio, and Sophie, I think we can promise that
all of the following people are capable of curing polio. Yeah,
why not, it's our response. They're all legally capable of
(18:05):
understanding what parody is and not getting mad about this
ad transition. That's what they're capable of doing. Here's a
bunch of ads, and we're back. But unfortunately, they didn't
have the products that support this podcast yet, or they might.
(18:26):
I don't know what we got advertised. Some of that
stuff has been around for a while, but they didn't
have enough of it. They didn't even have podcasts back then.
They had to listen to people on soapboxes and radio.
And actually we've been doing basically the equivalent of podcasts forever.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
Yeah, I mean, honestly, like, if you're thinking about a
lot of this sounds like COVID to me, And I
feel like the whole manosphere thing that happened during COVID,
where people were isolated and they didn't have real information
and they were just like, I don't know, I don't
understand that a lot of negative things around health came
(19:06):
out out of that, and it's still impacting us to
this day, which I'm sure we'll talk about.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Yeah, there's a lot of overlaps between this and like
we will talk about some like really early anti vaxxers
during this, But there was actually this thing where like
it seems like from the reading that more people were
willing to trust experts than like currently.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
That's fun. Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
People started fleeing the city. And to be clear, there's
outbreaks everywhere, but New York City is like particularly bad.
Twelve hundred kids a day escaped the city with their
families for a little while, but then other cities soon
stopped letting them come in. Kids and babies were taken
to Kingston Avenue Hospital and quarantined for two months, away
(19:54):
from their families, and then cops would go around and
steal children from their families to take them to the
hospit all. I only got one sentence of that, and
I want to know more about what happened there. Was
it like you got a runny nose, Now you got
to go to the you know, quarantine, the death land.
I don't know, the.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Police are coming, you know, I have had a couple
of instances where I have had something like swine flu,
and basically they've been like, you're going to this quarantine zone.
And I didn't know what was happening, and they just
told me where to go.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Wait, you've been quarantined by who. What happened?
Speaker 3 (20:34):
I was quarantined just multiple times. One time when I
was flying into the US. That was when I had
bird flu. One time at college when I had swine flu,
uh huh, and they didn't want to report it because
if they had to report it, they would have shut
down the university. And then another time where a doctor
(20:59):
was just like, please go home and quarantine.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
I feel really great about that. That made me really confident.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
Yeah, they basically were like, just don't tell Anyboddy, go
back to your door.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
I feel really confident about the American education system. I
feel like we're really setting the priority straight.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
They did give me a mask and some clothes and
the instructions to stay in my room away from people
for a couple of days.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
So college kids are notoriously good at following instruction.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
Definitely socializing. It was also Halloween. I remember very specifically
Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
My Halloween costume is the person with mask and gloves.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
I did stay in my room.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
That's good.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
I did.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Yes, that's good. So if there's ever like a new
animal named flu, are you just personally convinced that you
are going to get it? Kind of like once there's
like a snake flu, I'm like staying away from you
for a while.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
I think that's fair. I think that's a really fair response. Honestly.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Well, just like the thing that saved you, the epidemics
stopped because summer stopped. Two four hundred people, mostly kids
under five, died in New York City that summer, and
around nine thousand were paralyzed. Nationwide, twenty seven thousand kids
died or paralyzed, and I don't know which because it
(22:23):
was confusingly written, and I tried across reference, but it
doesn't always work. It was a bad summer. Every summer
across the world, polio came back, and it mostly slowly
got worse. Fifteen thousand kids a year were disabled by
polio in the United States, and is peaked in nineteen
(22:44):
fifty two. In the early nineteen fifties, the thing that
most Americans were afraid of was nuclear war, which makes
sense The second thing after that that they were the
most afraid of was polio. And it's like one of
those things where it's like polio's is like an old
timey disease. You're like, oh, that could have been like
that bad. We're still around as a species, and I've
(23:04):
never met anyone in polio, you know, right, maybe most
people are better at thinking things through than I would
have been.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
But yeah, it had a huge impact though. I know
we've talked about it, but in terms of like the
ADA and all those kind of things.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Yeah, Yeah, one of the things that we're not going
to get into too much, but the start of the
disability rights movement and also the start of the concept
of physical therapy. Yeah, comes out of polio. And of
course that was done by a woman and isn't as
written about as much. And then I'm as guilty as
anyone else because instead I'm going to complain about a man.
That's the main thing I'm gonna do this episode.
Speaker 3 (23:41):
Yeah, I mean, you know, sometimes you've just got to
complain about a man.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Yeah, under totally, totally. In nineteen fifty five, the polio vaccine,
the first one was administered, and the way it's usually
presented is that basically overnight polio dropped from disabling fifteen
thousand kids a year to about one hundred cases a year.
(24:06):
This isn't true. It did start turning the tide dramatically,
but it wasn't until nineteen sixty two, I think when
the other vaccine that we'll talk about later came in
that it started dropping to one hundred cases a year.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
So was it a kind of marketing thing.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
It's that people want a simple history with a hero,
and Jonas Salk, the guy that we're going to talk about,
mostly was a hero. He stopped polio. You know, by
nineteen seventy nine. Polio is effectively eliminated in the United
States until the modern anti vax movement, which is basically
(24:49):
a death cult.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
Uh huh.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
In twenty twenty two, the US got some cases of
polio for the first time since nineteen seventy nine.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
Great, yeah, with RFK Junior charge moving forward, well, let's let's.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Talk about that real quick. RFK Junior soon to be
remembered as one of history's greatest monsters. Yes, he has
gone on record to say that the polio vaccine has
quote killed many, many, many, many many more people than
polio ever did such an idiot uh huh wow, because
(25:25):
he was like, oh, he like gives people cancer or something.
And also he claims that the vaccine didn't actually reduce
polio cases, that it is quote a mythology and quote
just not true. Studies have shown, of course, that the
polio vaccine does not cause cancer, and that polio has
been pretty much completely eliminated worldwide because of these vaccines.
(25:50):
Everyone of every political party who allowed RFK Junior to
come to power has fucking blood on their hands. Yeah,
polio is bad and it was real bad. And this
is the story about people developing the vaccine, but it
actually starts in its way with people fighting against the flu.
So we're gonna talk about the flu real quick too.
(26:12):
The flu is way harder to vaccinate against, although we
do it fairly well. Regardless, people should get their flu shots.
I never bothered because I was like, I'm young and
can do whatever. And then I like have a doctor
friend and he's like, that's not the point. The point
is that if you don't get it, old people die.
I'm also like closer and closer to an honorary old
(26:33):
person myself, but yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
I had the same thing where it's like I don't
need it. It just kind of makes me feel a little
off for a couple of days. Why should I get it?
And then somebody sat me down and was like, it's
not just about you. Yeah, yeah's kind of the point totally.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
And there's like some people who can't get the shot
at all because they're immuno compromised. I think there's seventeen
million people living in the US who have actual medical
reasons that they can't get vaccinated, do an immunocompromisation. Whatever.
We still successfully vaccinate against the flu, even though mutates
all the time, which is why it's like less effective. Right.
The polio vaccine was like good by polio, right, and
(27:15):
we haven't been able to say good bye flu. Polio
doesn't like to mutate all that much, but the flu
mutates like it's its full time job. You have the
polio outbreak of nineteen sixteen, and then you have the
Spanish flu, which is the closest COVID parallel, especially because
they wore masks and stuff. And this is a global
pandemic from nineteen eighteen to nineteen twenty, and this fucking
(27:37):
thing killed like twenty five to fifty million people and
a lot of people. Yeah. This was during World War One,
and the Spanish flu was as good at killing soldiers
as masked charges against machine guns was like World War
One was like when we were really bad at understanding
that you can't charge a machine gun, you know, and
(27:59):
so they would be like, Oh, to send more young,
poor people in front of that machine gun, that'll work.
I think for actual soldiers, combat deaths edges out. I
didn't write down the numbers, but they're in the running
with each other. The thing that really scared people about
the Spanish flu is that it was affecting healthier people
(28:19):
than the flu usually did, and we didn't have the
flu shot yet, but public health departments did their best.
I think there's kind of this interesting thing where it's
like people do try, you know, and you're like, oh,
they did things wrong, and you're like, yeah, yeah, but
they did things they Yeah, they did what was what
they thought they could, you know.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
Yeah, going back to my friends who works in the
health industry, they were trying to learn as much as
they could about in this case, COVID, but it was
constantly changing. They were getting new data. It was moving
so quickly. I can only imagine back in nineteen seventeen, yeah,
or nineteen thirteen. But yeah, yeah, in that area.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
In front of me.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
Yeah, yeah, I memorized you know that, Yeah, that wasn't
you didn't have ready access. Actually, that's kind of an
interesting juxtaposition of like, in some cases I think that
boone is having more access than maybe in other cases
it's kind of a detriment, which is what we're seeing
(29:25):
today in terms of you know, misinformation disformation. But oh yeah, totally,
but not that that didn't exist before. But yeah, but
she was saying that we were always trying to figure
it out as quickly as we could to get solutions
because there are also people who don't want their loved
ones to die, I know.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
And it's like, oh, you said last week it was this,
and you're like, yeah, you're aware that, Like the whole
point of science is to change your mind as new
information comes in, but then act on the best available
information the entire time. Like that doesn't feel like a
hard concept from my point of view.
Speaker 3 (30:01):
You know, yeah, no, that makes total sense that you
would get new information, take that in and then make
your informed opinion.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Yeah, and so in New York City, when the Spanish
flu came. They basically built a social distancing infrastructure. They
staggered business hours so that not everyone was on public
transit at once. They got rid of rush hour in
order to fight the flu. Oh wow, I wish they
would just do that anyway, what am I saying? I
live in the mountains. I haven't had to deal with
(30:33):
rush hour, and like, I don't remember how many years
they got.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Well it's painful.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Yeah, yeah, there's no one around. Yeah, like you like,
we have to like wait for a tractor. That's the
most annoying thing that I have to.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
Put up with, you know, hilarious.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
But then when you finally pass them, they're just like, oh, hey,
how's it going, you know, give the wave. Yeah. They
also got theaters to sell only half their seats to people,
so you have an empty seat next to you. And
people started covering their mouths when coughing, which was a
new technology at the time.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
Wow, I love this. See I do the vampire cough.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Yeah no, yeah, we've moved from hands to the yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Bodies piled up unburied, and in nineteen eighteen, twenty one
thousand New York City children were orphaned, and that is
the New York city that our main character of the
week was born into, the one that his competitor would
move to. Jonas Salk was called a hero, and he
seemed to kind of revel in that identity. There's a
(31:42):
lot of like arguments this is a man that there
are hagiography is about. This is a man where they're like,
either he's just a complete piece of garbage or like
almost everything you read about it is like he's just
basically the best. This is Jesus walking amongst us. You know,
much like Jesus. He was Jewish, he was hard working
as fuck, and he tirelessly worked to make the world better.
(32:05):
He also wasn't the only person doing this work.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Also, we'll get to this at the end. He was
like a eugenicist and had really wild ideas and it
was a real sketchy.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
Oh that's fun, Tea said.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
His wife dihorsed him and for pretty solid reasons. And anyway,
we'll get to that.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
Did it go, girl, Yeah, you're a eugenicist. I think
I should get out of it.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
I was like, yeah, yeah, And I think there were
a lot of breakups around Trump's election, you know, I
think that there was a lot of people who are like, oh,
I could put up with my boyfriend until this is
just the step too far, this is too real now.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure I.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Met someone who would that basically happened to and I
don't feel bad for him at all, but I'm like, oh,
I'm so sorry that you wait. Nope, never mind. Anyway,
Jonahsok wasn't the only person doing this work around vaccines,
and people have complained about him taking credit for more
than his own work. And he started off his life
(33:09):
as a leftist. He was actually investigated by the FBI
for communist sympathies. Then he moved to a political and
he wound up writing mystical eugenesis shit about how scientists
should control the human race genetically by introducing viruses into
people's embryos. That's the big medical hero the twentieth century,
Jonas Salk. But one thing that Jonas Salk had access to, no,
(33:37):
he didn't. Actually he raised very poor. Well, I bet
some of our products and services were actually affordable. So
probably because some of them are just losing your life
to Anyway, here's some ads. I love all of them
and have no complicated feelings about the nature of my work.
Here they are. We're back and we're talking to Jonas
(34:00):
Salk born with no middle name, but he's going to
get one in an interesting way.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
Can't wait.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
That's my teaser. And it's not like me just adding
a eugenicist in quotas the middle name or whatever. No,
he actually gets an actual middle name. Jonah Salk was
born on October twenty eighth, nineteen fourteen, in East Harlem
in a tenement building. He was the first son of
Dora and Daniel Salk. His mother was a Russian Jew
from what's now Belarus. Her own parents had owned a
(34:29):
tavern in Minsk. Dora came over to Manhattan with her
family when she was thirteen, where she lived with others
in the wildly overcrowded tenements of the Lower East Side
and worked in the garment industry, which was not known
for good working conditions. And people who've listened to this
show and order have much of a grasp know that
the reason that Jews were leaving the Russian Empire is
that the Pograms were real not nice. The family did
(34:56):
fairly well for themselves, and Dora became a foreman at
the you know, tenement of sewing garment industry whatever. I
don't know the name of the place she worked, and
the family moved to East Harlem, where like more people
had like actual homes, but were still kind of crowded
into them. This is a like move from like poverty
(35:17):
to lower middle class. That's the best I can tell, Okay.
Jonas's dad, Daniel, was a Lithuanian Jews born in the
US and a lace maker who designed women's neckwear. He
was quiet and humble. His mom was driven in loud.
I have read so many biographies for this work where
they just like really want to complain about overbearing moms,
(35:37):
to the point where I actually just question everything about
the way the history is presented.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
Yeah, I think the history of the overbearing mom, I
always question it every time I see it.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
I'm like, yeah, in this case, Jonas likes his mom
and appreciates that she was a taskmaster.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
Okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
When they wound up with Jonas their eldest kid, mom
was very active in directing his education and making sure
he started reading right away. And shit, she became a
stay at home mom and was apparently kind of domineering.
Our boy, Jonas skipped a bunch of grades, was very quiet,
ignored sports, and read books. He wasn't a very happy kid.
(36:25):
His mother treated him like an adult pretty much right away.
But he never blamed anything on his mother and said
that he inherited her work ethic and is very grateful
for it. And it is important to this story that
he is a Jewish kid, the child of an immigrant.
His Judaism is important to his work. He's not necessarily
like super observant near the end of his life as
a kid, he is, but though like cultural and sort
(36:49):
of theological underpinions remain important to him. I believe his
entire life he consciously accepts the Jewish obligation of takun alum,
which is repairing the world. You have an obligation to
make the world a better place, which is I think
cool as hell, although obviously people can interpret that to
me and I want to inject viruses and the children
(37:09):
to make them have different you know, genetic structures. But
first he just saves millions of lives.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
Right, you know, at this level.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Yeah, and he doesn't do any of the philosophical stuff
he dreams of later. So the thing he practically.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
Does, it just seems a dream he has in his head.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
I like went back and forth like four times already.
I had a moment where I was like, do I
have to just scrap this and styling, and I'm like,
he's just actually complicated and overall not looking great, but
he's still interesting. Early on, he decides that he wants
to work relieving the suffering of the sick and the injured.
And there's so much myth making about this guy, and
(37:50):
like there's like things you'll read where he's like he
saw the nineteen sixteen and nineteen eighteen pandemics, and I'm like, no,
he didn't. He was like three years old. He did, though,
grow up in the wake of those crises, and he
absolutely grew up knowing people who were paralyzed and dealing
with a lot of disability as a result of folio.
(38:11):
When he was twelve, he went to an all boys
prep school for City College. This school is free, but
it's incredibly hard to get into, which means that it's
mostly the children of immigrants who go there, and especially
Jewish immigrants based on the demographics of New York at
the time. I like grew up so outside of this concept.
This place is is like preppy I like didn't understand
(38:33):
what a prep school was. This place is as preppy
as a prep school can prep. Their school newspaper is
in Latin.
Speaker 3 (38:42):
Oh okay.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Yeah, it is more of a humanities school than a
stem school. And once he was there, he did not
stand out. He was class secretary, but not class president.
The only thing that stood out about him was that
he was a sharp dresser. He was quiet and dedicated
and figured he'd become a lawyer or a politician to
(39:06):
make the world better. Once again, politicians famously always making
the world better.
Speaker 3 (39:11):
Definitely. Also just like I guess I'll just be a lawyer, yeah,
or a politician.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Yeah, whatever ever makes the world better. One of those
things I don't know. Yes, he was a prep school nerd.
He was in the Current History Society, and he was
in the Law and Debate Society. Oh wow, the Law
and Debate Society is one society. So that sounds extra miserable.
Speaker 3 (39:37):
That sounds really intense. Yeah, law and debate, yeah, not
just debate. Yeah, we must have the law.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
Whoever wins the debate gets to tell everyone who lives
and dies, so it's going to be totally normal.
Speaker 3 (39:49):
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
He was the advertising manager for the yearbook and assistant
business manager of the school paper. They get a picture
of this guy, you're just like, he doesn't have a
lot of friends, Like, no one hates him. He's just there,
you know.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
Yeah, he was doing a lot. We must say it was.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
You want to guess what year he started college?
Speaker 3 (40:08):
No, yeah, he least.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Don't make me he was fifteen years old when he
started college, because of course he fucking was.
Speaker 3 (40:15):
Oh gosh.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
He went to City College, which is what it was
a prep school for that he went to. And City
College was prestigious and free, and it was also eighty
percent Jewish because it was the place that immigrant kids
can go to. He barely made any friends. He was
going to do pre law, but then his mom was like, no,
you'd be terrible as a lawyer. You can't even beat
(40:37):
me in an argument, ow because he's not very like assertive,
you know.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Yeah, So he went into pre med and then his
mom was like, now you're too weak to be a doctor.
You should be a teacher.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
Mom, sounds fun.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
And he stood up for himself again he's myth making
against his overbearon mom, who he actually loved. He was like, no,
I like medicine.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
He doesn't have a wife to blame at this point.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
But he will have a wife to blame soon, don't worry. Yeah, yeah,
give it to that.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Men like this always have some woman where like it
was her.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
Yeah. Absolutely. He was like, I'm going to do medicine,
but I don't want to be a doctor. I want
to do medical science. He had read a book about
Louis Pasteur, the guy who did one a vaccine or whatever,
and he was like, all right, vaccines and shit, that's
my fucking thing. The problem with this, there's this free
(41:30):
school and it's full of Jewish immigrant kids, is that
higher education was anti Semitic and had informal caps on
the number of Jewish kids admitted. So it was very
hard for the city college kids to get into higher schools,
like once they finished their undergrad This entire establishment was
built and funded to help the children of immigrants, but
(41:50):
there's like a serious glass ceiling put into place by
WASP America. So Jonah Sulk applied everywhere and every place
rejected him. Mixed one. So we went to what's now
called the New York University College of Medicine. His interest
was in medical research and so people were like, just
get a PhD instead of an MD, and he was like, no,
(42:11):
I'm going to be a doctor, just a research doctor.
And in this new school he was entirely unremarkable and forgettable.
He barely made any friends. He lived at home with
his overbearing mom. Sorry anyway, oh god. He had to
find work to pay for school. So we started working
in research, and he was good at medical research right away.
(42:34):
If you were interested in animal rights, this man is
not a hero.
Speaker 3 (42:38):
I was just one of the many maybe categories we
can say.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
Yeah, and that one's like a style at the time thing,
and like animal testing is a complicated subject that I
don't want to get into the morality of anyway, whatever,
he starts working in research, and he is good at
this shit right away. His second research project was to
cultivate scarlet fever, or rather the bacteria that causes it,
and give rabbit scarlet fever. He improved the process of
(43:04):
cultivating bacteria, speeding it up by a factor of seven,
and got his first paper published in an academic journal
when he was twenty two. So this is like kind
of the first time he's like really like standing out, you.
Speaker 3 (43:18):
Know, yeah, is overbearing mom.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
Yeah, we're all doing air quotes this whole time. I
think everyone can hear it in our voices.
Speaker 3 (43:26):
I hope you can hear it an air quote. Yeah,
has been like, you're not good at this, You're not
good at this. He's been a part of all these
organizations and now has something that he feels good at.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (43:40):
It's really painting a picture of somebody who was trying
a bunch of things and looking for the one thing
that they would really excel at.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
Yeah, totally. He's good at this stuff. He might not
be as groundbreaking as people later paint him, but he
is genuinely good at this stuff. And when he gets
interested in vaccines, there are a few bacterial vaccines and
a few viral vaccines around, and bacterial vaccines can be
(44:12):
made using dead bacteria, but viral vaccines at the time,
like for smallpox, rabies, and yellow fever, they had to
be made out of weakened but live viruses. So you
isolate a virus, beat it up, tell it that it's
no good, never going to amount to anything, and then
(44:32):
you inject that into someone and this is seen as
an axiom. Viral infections can only be vaccinated against by
live viruses and live virus vaccines are inherently a bit riskier.
People still use them, and actually it's going to be
a live virus that's going to actually get rid of folio.
(44:54):
Live vaccines are more likely to provide lifelong immunity. You
and everyone listening to this as likely had both, and
if you haven't, then get mad at your parents for
not vaccinating you and go get vaccinated. But live vaccines
are not always appropriate. The flu shot we use now
is an inactive vaccine. It's a dead virus vaccine. And
(45:14):
Jonas Sulk is part of why we get the flu shot.
He was working for a virologist named Thomas Francis Junior,
who was the first man to isolate the flu virus
and later who developed the flu shot, or led the
research team that developed the flu shot. There's a lot
of I mean, no one's like writing hagiographies about him,
but you know he's part of a team. Thomas had
(45:38):
Jonas try to stimulate antibodies in mice with that flu virus.
The basic idea of vaccines, which people probably know, but
in case you don't, say, either contain antibodies to a
viral or bacterial infection or they convince your body to
make its own antibodies, which is even better. So Jonas
is working to stimulate antibodies in mice with dead flu
(45:59):
virus like a normal person who has normal hobbies. I'm
actually gratefully did this. I'm not complaining.
Speaker 3 (46:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
Meanwhile, he fell for a woman named Donna Lindsay, who
was an inch taller than him and from a rich
family and was pursuing her master's in social work at
this point. They're both leftists, and they shared a desire
to make the world better. This does not sound like
a really great romance. He was completely smitten with her
and she was like, I don't know. And I've read
(46:32):
it described in multiple places as he basically kind of
wore her down until she was like final, marry you.
Speaker 3 (46:38):
Yeah. She was like I don't need you. I'm good.
Speaker 2 (46:43):
But he yeah, he persisted, which means that she's going
to have to like give up her career and like
raise their kids, and like it was a you know,
it was the early twentieth century.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
It was like the type of romances that we still
unfortunate sometimes paint romantically, but at the time was very
romantic of just a man being like I got her eventually,
I wore her dad. Yeah, she saw how smart I was.
I'm not a nerd.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
Yeah, totally. Well, and he's like, she's so beautiful, and
she's always like he's all right, I don't know. He
graduated on June eighth, nineteen thirty nine, and he and
Donna got married on June ninth, nineteen thirty nine, the
very next day. And the reason it happened in this
(47:34):
order is that she's from this like wealthy Jewish family,
and his parents don't like that her family isn't really
practicing Jewish, but her family doesn't like that his family
is poor. Donna's dad is already pretty mad that his
daughter is marrying below her station, so he insisted that
(47:54):
it be done after he graduated, so that the announcement
could say Jonas Edward Sulk MD. And you might be
thinking to yourself, but doesn't he not have a middle name? Well,
Donna's dad was mad that Jonas didn't have a middle
name had not been properly anglicized, so he insisted that
(48:16):
Jonas take Edward as a middle name. So he gets
his middle name from his father in law, who's like,
you are an Edward.
Speaker 3 (48:26):
Wow, there's also something to be said about you know what,
the day after you graduate, we're just going to take
out all the air out of what you.
Speaker 2 (48:37):
Did, Yeah and put it here totally, totally.
Speaker 3 (48:42):
Yeah, that was a real move. Okay.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
So he's married now and I think he moves out
of the house. He has a two year internship at
a research hospital and he wanted to keep doing virology,
but he was Jewish and he wasn't from an ivy league,
so he kept getting turned down everywhere. Hill His former supervisor,
Thomas Franz and Junior, the guy who had him testing
dead viruses on mice, brought him out to ann Arbor,
(49:06):
Michigan to keep working on influenza. Eventually, Donna's going to
be like, I'm you can't just fucking drag me all
over the country for your shitty fucking research and then
ignore me all the time. But that hasn't happened yet,
and he like never talked about her or their relationship,
like would be shocked to know anyway, they're out ann Arbor,
(49:28):
Thomas Francis Junior and some others had developed a vaccine
ready for human trials for the first time for the
flu shot and the lab rats that they were going
to use for this were patients at state hospitals for
people with severe mental illnesses who were not in any
way able to provide meaningful consent.
Speaker 3 (49:46):
Yeah. I love that.
Speaker 2 (49:48):
History is a nightmare land.
Speaker 3 (49:50):
Yah okay.
Speaker 2 (49:56):
Jonas Salk spoke at the end of his life about
the importance of taking calculate risks in order to advance science.
He seemed to genuinely consider the human costs of those risks,
but he sure took a lot of them. He oversaw
eight thousand patients who got the vaccine or a placebo.
Antibodies went up, but there was no flu that season,
(50:18):
so they couldn't really prove anything. So they were like, ah,
the problem is that none of these people got the flu.
Option A, Oh, no way to hear. Option B. Take
infected mouse lung tissue and spray it into people's noses
who are not able to consent because they have severe
mental illnesses and rewards of the state. He goes for
(50:40):
Option B.
Speaker 3 (50:42):
Yep, that's what I was afraid of. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:47):
This kind of thing did not fall out of style
until the Nuremberg Trials of nineteen forty seven, when people
were like, maybe there should be ethical standards for testing
on people.
Speaker 3 (50:58):
Yeah, maybe there's a lot of stuff that the Nazis
did that was kind of just what everyone in the
West was doing, but cranked up like three notches.
Speaker 2 (51:07):
You know, Yeah, and it made everyone feel like, oh,
were we doing.
Speaker 3 (51:12):
Let's really go for it. Yeah, if we're gonna do it,
let's just go yeah, and made everybody else be like,
oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
You'd think they'd be like, maybe this eugenics thing is
no good, but it actually took decades before the West
got over their obsession with eugenics. Some people like Sock
died obsessed with I don't know if he defined what
he did as eugenics. I couldn't actually find the answer
to that, but we'll talk about that later. This worked,
the flu shots and the giving people the flu without
their permission. The control group got the flu at about
(51:43):
fifty percent, while the vaccinated folks got it at sixteen percent,
so it was very effective at stopping the flu that year.
In nineteen forty three, they got to show the world
that they'd done good as a flu epidemic spread. Twelve
five hundred soldiers were put into a try no need
to spray infected mouse lungs into their noses because there's
actually a flu this year and only two percent of
(52:07):
the inoculated folks got sick, and the mental patients who
had been tested on the year before were still immune.
So dead viruses can work. And that's where we're going
to leave it today. Our hero is doing great things.
It's just messy. This is just like like he's not
in any way acting abnormally to what he does for
(52:30):
work at this point, and that's just an indictment of
people refusing to think about ethics.
Speaker 3 (52:37):
Wow, well, I'm very eager to see the downfall of
this year. Oh that doesn't happen like the teas of
the downfall.
Speaker 2 (52:46):
No, he die as a hero.
Speaker 3 (52:49):
Ah Okay.
Speaker 2 (52:51):
I started researching him because people painted a real pretty
picture of him, and I was like, he's going to
win to cover because you can paint a real pretty
picture of this man. And like maybe this is just
like a no Heroes moment right where you're like, well, yeah,
whoever does this kind of work is going to have
a willingness to hurt people to help people in a
(53:12):
way that is like morally messy. But I still kind
of come down on this particular guy not so great.
Speaker 3 (53:21):
In the end, I think taking in the complexities of
anybody is good. Yeah, and then like science, weighing the
information you get and forming your opinion.
Speaker 2 (53:34):
Ah, all right, well instead of telling the listener what
to think about this man, you mean, I should just
continue to explain this story and then interesting. Although I
didn't name this cool people did cool stuff, so I
always feel like I got to kind of specifically be like,
this man is not worthy of the title. But the
thing that happened, the creation of a polio vaccine is.
Speaker 3 (53:56):
Yeah, well that's also complicated, you know, was just called
cool stuff too.
Speaker 2 (54:01):
Yeah, totally, it's just cool stuff. Well, if people are like,
but I want to hear you any Reese on the
podcast more, but I don't want to wait till Wednesday.
What can they do?
Speaker 3 (54:12):
Well, you can find me on stuff when I ever
told you, or savor wherever you get your podcast and
I'm out and about but not really yeah, fair enough,
I don't even know why say yeah, but yes, you
can find me there.
Speaker 2 (54:25):
I finally post on Instagram like yesterday, being like I'm
not checking Dmazon here anymore. I am so tired of
meta with a company.
Speaker 3 (54:33):
Yeah, yeah, pretty much.
Speaker 2 (54:36):
That's where I am still on Blue Sky. You can
find me there. I'm on Substack find me there. And
podcasts and also what podcast I listened to this week
that I was like, I can't wait to plug this one.
Speaker 3 (54:49):
On air now.
Speaker 2 (54:51):
I don't remember what it was. I don't know. Sorry,
it was probably sixteenth minute, but I don't even remember
what the most recent sixteenth minute was.
Speaker 1 (54:59):
So it's about the Hawk Tua sec scandal.
Speaker 2 (55:03):
Oh, I mean I did listen to that, but I.
Speaker 1 (55:05):
Was like, that doesn't seem like something you'd be like, wow, wow,
wow about really great episode by the way she.
Speaker 2 (55:10):
Listened, it is a good episode. Good yeah, and it
was a good update to it.
Speaker 1 (55:12):
I don't know, but like financial scandal, not really your
What was the.
Speaker 2 (55:16):
Most recent Hood Politics?
Speaker 3 (55:17):
Maybe? Is that politics?
Speaker 1 (55:19):
A great show?
Speaker 3 (55:21):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (55:21):
Well, listen to Hood Politics with prop and sixteenth minute
and everything else from cool Zone Media and everything else
that Annie Reese does, and listen to all of it
before Wednesday, because I will be quizzing you.
Speaker 3 (55:33):
Yeah, all right, hi everyone? Ye.
Speaker 1 (55:38):
Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of
cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media,
visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com or check us out
on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
your podcasts.
Host
Margaret Killjoy
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