November 24, 2025 • 50 mins
Margaret talks to Jamie Loftus about Shawnee resistance to the American colonialism and a woman who led them in battle
Sources:
https://colonialquills.blogspot.com/2017/07/revolutionary-mothers-nonhelema-of.html
https://kentucky-museum.org/nonhelema-hokolesqua/
https://www.publishersweekly.com/978-0-345-44554-4
https://sundownohio.substack.com/p/the-gnadenhutten-massacre
https://newreligiousmovements.org/b/bohemian-adamites/
https://www.reformedhistory.com/Content/Confessions/ArticlesOfPrague
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/mar/22/naked-truth-about-seventies-streaking-craze
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/iph4ag/why_did_the_czech_lands_remain_catholic_rather/
https://web.archive.org/web/20160223035154/http://www.moravian.org.uk/index.php/the-moravian-church/moravian-history
https://www.nrafamily.org/content/throwback-thursday-nonhelema-s-tale/
https://www.nationsandcannons.com/blog/nonhelema-chieftess-warrior-and-advocate-for-neutrality-in-the-revolutionary-war
https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/metis
https://web.archive.org/web/20240624093053/https://lssse.indiana.edu/blog/guest-post-native-american-exclusion-as-a-form-of-paper-genocide/
https://frontierpartisans.com/281/the-shawnee-resistance/
https://www.americanhistorycentral.com/entries/pontiacs-rebellion/
https://bushyrunbattlefield.com/battle-of-bush-run-history/
https://battlefieldtravels.com/battle-of-bushy-run/
https://archive.wvculture.org/hiStory/journal_wvh/wvh56-5.html
https://www.midstory.org/over-240-years-later-an-ohio-community-remembers-its-founding-massacre/
https://journals.psu.edu/wph/article/download/60205/60154
Personal correspondence
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Cool Media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Hello, and welcome to Cool People Did Cool Stuff. You're
a weekly reminder that whenever there's bad things happening, there's
people trying to do good things and they often succeed.
And my name is Margaret Kiljoy and I'm your host
and my guest today it's Jamie Loftus. And I waited
until you were taking a drink before I said your
name and made you have to answer.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
I knew you were going to do that, and I
took the drink and I feel like it was a
self sabotaging thing that I just did.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
It's all right, Jamie, How would you describe yourself if
I didn't bother to write a sentence into this script
that is your bio? Oh?
Speaker 1 (00:37):
You know I podcast? Yeah, that's you know.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
You want to say more to make yourself feel better.
But it kind of boils down to that.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
I've probably told you and I've told the audience this
a thousand times about the stress stream I had where
I had to explain at a party what I do
for a living.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
It's a nightmare. It's a nightmare.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Never ask someone what they're are to, like, I end
up doing it because what else are you going to
ask someone, but like.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
How's that weather?
Speaker 3 (01:06):
It's so yeah, You're like what I do is like,
don't worry about it. It's embarrassing. It's embarrassing. If you
don't know already, you don't want to know.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Yeah, that's yeah exactly. Well who isn't embarrassed because she's
not on a podcast today is our producer Sophie Lichterman.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
Oh my gosh, I Sophie is the queen of podcast
She's the least embarrassing person in podcasting.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
It's true, and also the originator of podcasting. Don't ask
me to cite that. It's in the show notes.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
I had a stress dream last night.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
It's always interesting, like whatever, being somewhere in the middle
of the parasocial spectrum where I had a dream that
my favorite podcaster, or like one of my favorite podcasters
who I have like a parasocial relationship with, got like
hit by a car leaving a Broadway show.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Oh my god, I know it's like really specific. Oh
my god, that's Molly Okay.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
She's she's okay, she's safe.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
And it was literally she was leaving a hades town.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Huh, but like.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
And I woke up distraught, being like wait, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Her, but that's really sad. I hope she makes it.
I want to keep listening to the show.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
And you're it was a really weird set of emotions
to wake up with to realize it didn't happen.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Yeah, this is going to be behind the curtain for everyone.
Sometimes when I meet people and they're nervous to meet
me and they're like, sorry, I have kind of parasocial relationship,
and I'm like, I have a para social relationship with
the podcasters I listen to, and Jamie, I use you
as the example of someone that I have a parasocial
relationship with despite knowing in person and considering my friends.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Yes, I feel like there are certain because I feel
the same way. And when I met Molly earlier this year,
I was like, we know about the personal details of
each other's lives, and yet you're always like in full makeup.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
In my mind, yeah, totally beautiful.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Actually, ooh, someone in full makeup is the protagonist of
this story.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Oh okay, I wonder if it's well, I guess yeah,
in a cool way. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
No, they're in battle paint. Yeah, she's in battle paint
the whole time. We also have help from not just
an absent producer who's not actually absent in spirit and
helps make the show happen, Sophie. We also have help
from Eva, who's our audio engineer, Hi Eva Wow. And
our theme music was written for us by un woman Jamie.
(03:32):
How do you feel about very tall women who fight
against empires?
Speaker 1 (03:38):
I love Sarah Marshall's work. I'm a big fan.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Yeah, me too.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
I feel good about it.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Excellent, this is gonna work out well. I don't tend
to do the like National History Month things because I
try to challenge myself to not separate out types of history,
like to not only cover indigenous stories in November, for example. Sure,
but it is nearly the end of November, and I've
been covering people fighting against Rome and sort of the
(04:10):
original fighting against Empire. But I haven't been covering enough
of the fighting against empire that happened here in North America.
And so this is my Thanksgiving episode about people who
killed American patriots.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
Let's go all right.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
A couple weeks ago, I covered a Celtic rebel named Boudica.
Have you ever heard of this woman? No, she was
this warrior queen of the ICINAI people in Britain, and
she led a revolt against the Romans and nearly drove
them out of England, though, and she burned London to
the ground, which is a pretty cool thing to do. Wow, okay,
and by all accounts, she was remarkably tall and strong
(04:50):
for a woman at the time, and I was like, okay, okay,
and then okay, just to go ahead and spoil the
end of that particular episode, no one's ever found her grave.
People believe that she's real, like all these people wrote
about her. No one's ever found her grave. And at
one point people found a grave with her name on
it very recently, but had a man's skeleton in it,
so they're like, ah, we still haven't found it and
(05:11):
kept moving, which as a trans woman I have feelings about.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Sure, but when was that?
Speaker 2 (05:19):
When did they find it? Or oh the resistance was
in Oh crap, it's been a couple weeks since I
covered it, like the year like sixty oh orthing like that,
oka like a long long time ago, thousand years ago.
And then last week I covered more resistance to Rome
when Germans drove the empire out, And I remember thinking
all these times, covering all this resistance to Roman expansion. Wow,
(05:42):
this feels so parallel to European colonization in North America.
And it's not one for one. You know, and a
friend of mine, Otter, is an Afro Indigenous historian, Hi Otter,
if you're listening. And Otter wrote me and said, good
job covering Budica. Do you know about the Shawnee version
of her?
Speaker 4 (06:01):
Who?
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Okay? And I had not known, so she told me
about non Helemma. You ever heard of non Helemma?
Speaker 4 (06:08):
No.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
I feel like, like probably most kids of the American
public school system, I know far too little about indigenous history.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Yeah. I absolutely had to trace my hand and then
make a turkey out of it. That's that's kind of I.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Also, I grew up like forty five minutes from Plymouth Plantation.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
They were really shit.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
I mean they were pouring the kool aid in vast
quantities when I was growing up.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Yeah. Well, this is an Ohio story. And this is
a story about an indigenous woman who was a chief,
a warrior, a diplomat, and also a cougar just kept
having kids with men who were like decades younger than her.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Hell yeah, okay, and she.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Did most of her fighting in Pontiac's War, which was
before the American Revolution, and so there she was six
foot six according to every source in it, which everyone
is a little bit like, maybe maybe she's six foot six. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
I do like when because I feel like height is
ultimately a feeling totally, and it's like, how tall do
you make people feel? Because I'm almost six feet tall
and no one ever thinks that. Yeah, my energy is
not six feet tall, and I have accepted that, But
I feel like height is a state of mind.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
I have ever told you that I lost an inch
by transitioning.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Really, wait where did it go?
Speaker 2 (07:32):
So, just to give you a pair of social people,
way too much information about me, I am five foot
nine and three quarters. I have always been five foot
nine and three quarters. When I was a boy, I
would go to the doctor and they would measure me
and it's so, oh, you're five foot ten. And then
I went to the doctor as a girl. They round
(07:53):
it down, and they rounded down.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
They do round it down. Wow, So nothing changed.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
I know, nothing changed us to give up. I'm like,
I am still five foot ten. You can round that up.
I am not cheating. I am not lying. Five foot
nine and three quarters whatever.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
I'm told five to eleven at the doctor, but I
know the truth.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
Yeah six foot six, Yeah, I'm also six six Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
So in Pontiac's War, there she is six foot six,
forty five years old going into battle naked and painted
and black body paint. Incredible, And so as soon as
I had that image, I was like, Yeah, I like
this lady.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
I'm in.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Her story is kind of complicated. It is hard to
find clearcut perfect shining heroes and history period, and you
kind of can't win if you were native in North America.
Well probably ever, but I'm specifically talking about in the
era right around the Revolutionary War. So she's gonna take
a bit of a heel turn. But you know, she's
(08:54):
a fascinating person. But first context. I don't know if
you knew this, Jamie, but North America has been a
colonized place for a while now, about five hundred years.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
Wait, what if I needed that context? Isn't that the
best part of writing the podcast script when you're like
context and then you're like three hundred years before while
we're talking about wait something.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Oh, I'm absolutely going to go exactly three hundred years before.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
It's the point, Yes, Okay.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
I'm going to tie in heretical cults from Bohemia. Really
soon take me back, I'm ready. Most people know the
year fourteen ninety two, of course, as the year that
Christians demanded that all the Jews and Muslims leave Spain.
But also in fourteen ninety two, some Italian slaver discovered
that he could get really famous by showing up at
(09:46):
a place people already lived and then claiming to discover
that place and then enslaving the people who lived there.
His name is Christopher Columbus. He's not a hero. Our
story takes more place in the eighteenth century, the seventeen hundreds.
I actually I write that into the script for myself.
Whenever I do the like eighteenth century seventeen hundreds, I
do that because my brain still does not wrap my
(10:08):
head around that.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
I fuck that up every single time I have to
do it. And then it's one of those little things
that when someone corrects me on that, I'm like, I
don't care. Yeah, they should fix that.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Yeah, the problem totally. It's like when you're late on
daylight savings time or whatever. You're like, yeah, man, I
didn't build this problem.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
Yeah, You're like the system is broken. I'm behaving rationally.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Yeah. So for the first half of the eighteenth century,
you have all these British colonies on the east coast,
stopping at the Appalachian Mountains to their west, or Appalachian
Mountains if you're in the north. And then there's New
France in what's now Canada, and there's a whole bunch
of disputed territory that a fuck ton of people already
lived in and they just weren't Europeans, so people didn't
(10:54):
ask their opinion about what should be done with all
that territory. And the main groups of pep people we're
going to talk about today are the Shawnee. It's a
nation that started off kind of around the mid Atlantic,
like what's now Maryland, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Virginia. And then
there's the Lenape, who are a little bit east and
north of that, like Delaware and New Jersey and New York.
(11:15):
All these people are still here. To be clear, I'm
using the past tense just about where they were living traditionally.
And then you have a third group of people who
aren't necessarily distinct, but it's a different culture, the Moravians.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
I'm not familiar with the Moravians.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
You're not familiar with the Moravian Church. I can't believe
you're not familiar with the Moravian Church that I learned
about this week, because I'm going to start this story
in the fourteen hundreds and fucking Bohemia, the Kingdom of
Bohemia what's now the Czech Republic.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
Yeah, of course you are. We are of course going
back there, yeaheah.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
And it's going to tie into another story. I'm interested
in the Hussites and the Taborites.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Yeah, my good friends.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Yeah, well, actually the Bohemian Adamites are the best, but
we'll get to them later, Okay, all right. You know
how in queer circles people find the most unhinged shit
to get angry and discourse about. Like, I can't believe
you're polyamorous and not a relationship anarchist. You are literally
the oppressor. You have a partner that's just inherently wrong,
(12:20):
you know, m h. Sometimes I read about old church
heresies and I'm expecting like juicy stuff, like sometimes you
get this right. Sometimes you get like the Ranters who
were a free love call that thought there was no
such thing as sin, and everyone should fucking big orgies
and share everything, and that's legitimately a pretty major break
(12:41):
from traditional Catholic teachings, right. But then the other heresies
that you find that people got burned alive for, and
there are things like what caused the Moravian thing? Hey,
we believe you should have bread and wine at communion?
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Ooh, I kind of love those where you're like, it's
just a scooch above a perceived slight and you're like,
I can kill you for that.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Yeah, we're gonna have some crusades about this. Literally, they're
going to have crusades about this.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
So wait, that's the Moravian They want bread and wine
and that's against God.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
There's a couple things okay that is like yeah, somehow
but okay, And so then there's other things like this
one isn't the Moravian ones, But you'll find heresies that
are like what if the Holy Trinity is like based
and cool and all that shit, but what if the
three parts are actually different and not on the same level,
And people will be like, we're gonna fucking kill you,
or like what if the bread and wine is a
metaphor and doesn't literally become flesh and blood in our stomachs.
(13:38):
Wouldn't it be nice to not be doing cannibalism each week?
And they're like, we're gonna fucking cut your head off,
We're going to kill you.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Yeah, this does feel like a lot of like leftist
circles too, or exactly wait what does that mean?
Speaker 1 (13:50):
And they're like, no, you got we gotta kill her,
she's gotta go. Yeah yeah, okay, cool.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
Yeah, as long as humanity will never learn or improve,
I feel like that's.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
The US, that is the important thing. Yes, okay. So
the Kingdom of Bohemia in what's now the Czech Republic
near Germany, they're thinking about wanting some church reformation years
before Martin Luther and his Protestantism. Did you know that
there's a Protestant church that comes from sixty years before
Martin Luther?
Speaker 3 (14:18):
But no, wait and neither did I Did he take
credit for it? How does that work?
Speaker 2 (14:25):
He did a different Protestant Reformation?
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Oh that's tough. That's tough.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
It's like when they make the do you remember when
they made two movies about Truman Capoti the same year
and it's like, sorry, there can actually only be one.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Yeah. Yeah, people are only gonna remember one.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Yeah, they've gone a different way. Okay.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Yeah, when someone invents the new thing and then someone
does it slightly better and you're like, I was here first,
and they're like, no one cares that you were here first.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
Yeah, they're like good idea.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Bye.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Yeah, that's the Moravian Church who are still around.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
They're still around.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Yeah, the Moravian Yeah, it is very very small group.
But so sixty years before okay, So, so peasants were like, honestly, yeah,
I guess we care about the bread and wine thing,
but actually it's about how the church is taxing us
into starvation and live like kings. And so there's a
guy named Jan huss and the Catholic Church burned him
(15:17):
at the stake in the year fourteen eighteen, and people
were like, we don't approve you having killed this man.
And so you start getting this bigger rebellion against the
Catholic Church, and a bunch of like the nobles and
stuff are being on it too. They're like, actually, we
don't want the church being super rich in our area
instead of us. And then the peasants were like, what
if actually everyone was equal and everyone's like no, we're
not gonna listen to you.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
They're like, no, no, no, no, no, we're on the same
side for totally different reasons right now.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Yeah, yeah, cool, But do you know who should be
unbelievably wealthy? Who you, dear listener, if you take advantage
of the goods and services, unless it's gambling, and especially
gambling on your phone, in which case, don't do that.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
Yeah, don't gamble on your phone, and certainly don't join ice.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
No oh god. And yeah. Every now and then those
ads get through.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Every once in a while you're like, and there.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Yeah, but if it's anything else, it'll make you fantastically wealthy.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
By the cream. Oh yeah, by the cream.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
That's right, here's ads and we're back. So all of
a sudden, you have these Hussites, right, the Hussies. They're
not called Hussies, but I'm going to call them Hussies.
And they're into the idea that priests shouldn't hoard wealth
but actually live in a christ like way, and that
priest should be shouldn't be immune to civil court punishment.
(16:38):
This one took me a million years. I read the
four Articles of Prague and I was like, why am
I down this rabbit hole. I'm just trying to dream
about this thing. But she's going to end up a Moravian,
so we're going to get to that. So this is
the reason that we're talking about this and the four
Articles of Prague. One of them is like, and everyone
needs to be prosecuted for sin, and I'm like, man,
that one's sketchy. I don't know how I feel about
(16:58):
that one. But what they actually meant was that priests
need to be held accountable in civil courts.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
It's so interesting, like the ways that various groups define
and like deploy the term Christ Like, like it really
just depends on who you're talking to, because every once in.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
A while, I'm like, I'm with it.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Yeahs Jesus. Sometimes he just wants everyone to be nice
to each other and share stuff.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
Yeah. Sometimes it's like I just want you to be friendly.
Other times it's like, no, sorry, you're confusing Jesus with God.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
And so there's all of these sects within the Hussites.
They're having this huge rebellion, and there's like the more
moderate ones who I forget the name of, and then
there's more radical ones We're called the Taborites. So I
think I'm going to get to you later because as
I learn more about them, I think that they might
be like kind of like proto Christian anarchistic type people,
and so I like them, but I don't know yet.
Don't take my word for that. But I can't tell
you that one of the sections was the Bohemian Adamites,
(18:02):
and what they were doing is they were looking back
at a thousand year old sect of Christians from North
Africa called the Adamites, and they were like, the Adamites
had it right. And do you know what the Adamites
were into? What mass should be naked? Okay, everyone should
share everything absolutely, that includes sexual partners. Those who marry
(18:22):
will not see the Kingdom of Heaven.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
Oh okay.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
So it's a free love church.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Huh, nice, nice, free love nudist church.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
Okay, okay, and we're back.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
They can hit you commies.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
Bohemian Adamites sounds like like a band that would really
do well with like middle schoolers.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
That's cool.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Adam and the Ants is new side project. And it's
not certain whether or not they had orgies. The people
who like to demonize them this that they had orgies.
I also believe they probably had orgies. Why else are
they doing this?
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Right?
Speaker 2 (18:56):
But they lived on a little island to themselves. They
were convinced the world was ending, so they called themselves
the Saints of the Last Days.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Okay, Wow, dramatic of them.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
I'm fucking idiot.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
Yeah, I like it. So they want to be naked
and fuck and they're dramatic.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
They also didn't like working, and they were like, no,
we don't want to be productive.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Fuck that nice okay.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
And they like to go streaking through various villages and
towns and shit. I think this was their like proselytizing.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
I like that They're like, let's just do a silly one. Yeah,
do a silly one.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
I think they all got murdered, but I'm not sure.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
Unfortunately, I feel like that's the only way that ends.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
I know, too much fun, We're like too much fun.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Yeah. Even the other Hussites were like, y'all making us
look bad. We're very serious, you know, they're just goofing off.
There's a gap year energy to this religion. Yeah, And
I love that. It's like I can point to the
ranters were really similar during the English Civil War era.
(20:05):
I love that whenever there's like a kind of a
break in like normal culture. People are like, I think
God wants us to fuck.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
It would be against God if we didn't start fucking
right now.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Yeah, right, guys, it's what Christ would want.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
That's Christ like. I mean that's a great weaponization of Christ.
Like Christ would have sex with me. Yeah, I think absolutely,
that's probably the christ like thing. I think that everyone
needs to live like Christ in this particular way. M
hyeah famously naked at least when he was on the cross.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Or that's true.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
It's so wild how it just like Grandma's have christ
hog just in the bathroom totally, something I reflect on
sometimes where you're like it's just out and you're like
pooping and looking at Jesus's cock.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
It's easy totally. And he also has that wound pussy.
But anyway, it's true. The was it was some of
the Hussies. They decide in fourteen fifty seven they're going
to form a church that's wholly separate from the Catholic Church.
Originally they were like, hey, could we just be kind
of autonomous within the Catholic Church, And the Catholic Church
(21:18):
is like, we're literally gonna call a crusade and so
actually the Crusaders got their aspect, but one day I'll
cover that whole story, and so you get the first
Protestant Reformation sixty years before Martin Luther's ninety five. Theces
and people who believe the wrong thing often have to
leave to go from one place to another. So in
seventeen twenty seven, a good while later, a bunch of
(21:42):
Hussites from Moravia, which is next to Bohemia, fucked off
to Germany, or rather Germany didn't exist, so they fucked
off to Saxony near Poland. And they did this to
escape the counter Reformation, aka, we're going to kill all
the heretics. At this point, they're called the Moravians, which
is where most of them are.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
And there's still like a pretty fairly small community.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
That's my impression, but I didn't. As always, I know
way more about like shit that happened in like the
eighteenth century than whatever century we're in now.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
Well, I bet it's also hard to find like good
sources on stuff like this too.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Yeah, And it's like some of the history is actually
written by the modern Church being like, hey, this is
our history, right, but it's hard to then find like
here's how many there are currently or are they a cult?
Speaker 3 (22:29):
Right?
Speaker 2 (22:29):
You know, it's like.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Famously hate to disclose that.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. And so if they show up
in Saxony and then pretty much right away a bunch
of them go off to the New World and a
lot of them end up in the Colony of New
York and they would set up in these towns. They
would start these towns that were mixed between their like German,
Czech themselves and indigenous folks, especially Lenape, Mohican and Cherokee people.
(22:57):
And you didn't have to convert to live there. And
so these were like some of the as far as
I can tell, some of the like seemed like at
the time, although we'll get to it safer places and
you could kind of like European eyes or whatever a
little bit, which isn't I'm not putting a moral statement
on that. It's just a thing that happened, and you
(23:17):
didn't have to convert to live there. But most of
them end up doing that, as far as I can tell.
And in seventeen forty four, the New York colonial government
was like, you can't be here, you're weird Germans. We
don't like that, and also stop doing that, and so
they kicked them out of New York, okay. And so
at this point they start moving into indigenous villages directly,
(23:37):
especially in Ohio where a ton of Lenape folks had
moved because they had already been driven out too. And
these Lenape villages they're essentially European and character and architecture,
though not in language. And this is going to come
up later. And these are sometimes called praying Indian towns,
all right, So that's the Moravians. They are going to
be influential to this story, Sara.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
So the hippies are getting in on colonizing, uh huh, okay,
got it.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
But it's a complicated because also already a lot of
these towns are indigenous people, right right. That's like the
weird thing about religious colonization and conversion. It's like, unlike
the Americans who are like, we're going to fuck murder
you all. The Christians, which many of the Americans are,
right are going to be like, well, no, we just
want to make you have our religion or.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Whatever, strip you of your native culture.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Yeah, totally. But it's also like a lot of the
people doing that are indigenous people who are like this
is what we're choosing to do, right, And so I
feel like weird being like they shouldn't have done that.
And I'm like, man, I'll fucking know, right, totally, yeah,
but yeah it is one of the best. Like I
was on tour a couple of years ago with a
book called A Country It Ghosts. It's like utopian story.
(24:48):
And I was at this book and I was at
this indigenous info shop in New Mexico called Taalahugan, and
I was talking about this and this one person who
was at the talk, this guy named Kleebana Rest in Peace.
He died a couple of years ago. He's a game
writer and a regular writer and made a bunch of
stuff and he was like, look, you're here talking about utopia.
(25:09):
Like my people were like colonized by people here looking
for utopia. And it was such an important I didn't
have a counter argument. I was like, yeah, no, you're right,
Like that is the danger of utopianism, right. And it's
interesting because I get the impression that there's some level
of like Tara nullis, that's like, Oh, we're going to
show up and it's everything's going to be empty. I
(25:30):
think the Moravians were a little different than that, but
I don't know. I don't know at all, right.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
I mean, it's especially tricky when the main source for
the history of the Moravians is the Moravians.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Right, totally, all right, So the Shawnee people, who by
and large are not the Lenape. Some of the Lenape
have become religiously Moravian, not all of them, you know,
and the Shawnee are a little bit separate from that,
but they're in the same geography very heavily. By the
time our story gets going, and I'm going to use
some generalizations here as few as possible, but in general,
(26:01):
the Shawnee people are again, are still around, but I'm
talking about them in the seventeen hundreds, patrilineal, but with
a whole lot more gender balance than what you saw
in Europe at the time. The Shawne people at the
time used what was called a bilateral system. So there's
like a lot of if you read like the pop history,
you're like, oh, she's a chief, and then people are like, woh,
she's a woman chief. And then you get into it
and you're like, as you go up the exploding brain,
(26:22):
you're like, yeah, of course she was. That was completely normal.
But then you keep going up and you're like, actually,
what does chief even mean? That's kind of a like
eurocentric thing that gets put onto Shawnee people.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
I guess, like map, yeah, yeah, so what does it
mean in this context?
Speaker 2 (26:36):
I know for certain what it means in the context
when they start talking about it. There's a word here,
but it's like basically a central chief, like chief of chiefs.
I know that that was created later in order to
allow people to actually interact with white people, because white
people will be like, but we want to talk to
who's in charge, and they were like, you can't. People
are in charge, right, okay, and so they kind of
had to create a system like that. I believe that
(26:58):
the chief thing was a little bit more flat. But also,
again according to Otter is one of my main sources
for this, it's really different at different times in places. Okay,
but I can say that in war you are going
to have like more leaders, war leaders and things like that,
and you also have peace leaders anyway, Okay, so during
times of peace you have the men's lodge and the
women's lodge, and they made decisions together. During times of war,
(27:21):
the men's Council would be entirely focused on issues of war.
The Women's Council would break into two groups, one continuing
domestic affairs and the other being the Matriarch's War Council.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Ooh, I know, I'm kind of like that's fun. Okay,
another good band name.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Yeah, And you can't declare war without all three groups
of people agreeing to it, okay. As an aside, I
fell down a rabbit hole reading a book from eighteen
thirty two about the Moravian work to Christianize indigenous people
in North America because I was trying to answer some
of those questions we were talking about earlier about how
they perceived it.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
This is the most magpie story I've ever heard.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
It is what I felt that just rabbit hole up
to rabbit hole, and so it goes on and on
about how Indians and that gets scare quotes were basically
the nicest heathen people of any heathen people in the world,
and they were actually more moral than most Christians already.
And this is mostly based on the Lenape people they met,
(28:16):
but they are also making these claims as generalizations of
the people of all of North America, and by that
they mean roughly like the Northeast. But I like this
following paragraph. I'm we're going to quote because basically, I
think the inference here is, yeah, these folks were gay
as hell.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
In the converse of both sexes, the greatest decency and
propriety is observed, at least nothing lashivious. I don't know
how to pronounce that word. I don't care. Or indecent
is openly allowed, so that in this respect it cannot
be denied that they excel most nations. But in secret
they are nevertheless guilty of fornication and even of un
(28:53):
natural crimes.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
Ooh okay, Yeah, maybe it was just you read, but
it sounds like there's an implied comma and we're into that.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Yeah, totally, absolutely that rocks o'kay' never going to be
too far from the Adamites end of all things.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Yes, wow, unnatural crimes. I love an unnatural crime being invoked.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Yeah, okay. And another thing that is worth understanding to
understand this story. This is some of the earlier. The
colonization has been going on for hundreds years already, but
this is like a little bit earlier than most of
the quote unquote Indian Wars that we've talked about on
the show before, and most of the people in this
story are not used to the idea of total war.
(29:38):
Total war is sort of the idea that you're like,
kill civilians, We're just going to crush people, destroy them
as a people like, you know, mobilize an entire society
to destroy another society. Like you don't go to war
because you go to white people out in North America
before white people as a broad generalization, and the white
(29:58):
people showed up. The shiny people are going to them
long knives at this point in the eighteenth century.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
Okay, better than they deserve.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
But I know, and once again, okay, one of my
main sources here, I'm just gonna shout out my friend
Otter again, who sent me some of her notes directly,
and she has a substack and she writes a ton
about this stuff, and it's called Greetings from Sundown, Ohio.
So basically, war at the time meant something so completely
different than it meant in Europe, and in any given village,
(30:25):
you would have three spheres like layers of an onion,
which is a Shrek reference for you, Jamie.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
Okay, thank you so much. Now my brain is I'm
not gonna be able to sleep tonight. My sleeper cell
has been activating.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Sleepless cell.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
So there's like three spheres where you can kind of
do war right out in the woods and shit, like
where people hunt and forage, areas that aren't really directly
controlled by people. You have a sort of ceremonial type
of warfare where people, mostly young men, would fight each
other and wrestle and taunt each other and sometimes play
pickup games of stickball to see who's better, and sometimes
(31:02):
people get injured. Sometimes rarely people would die, and this
is the safest place to fight. If you're like, oh
I hate those people, you can kind of go fight
them in the woods. And it's like it is what
it is, all right, the high school rivalry.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
I mean war explained it anyway. Yeah, it's like it
comes down to Yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Then you have the fields that people actually use. This
is a closer layer of the onion. If you show
up to russell horses or steal corn or whatever, then
you're playing for way higher stakes because you're fucking with
people closer to their home and you're fucking more directly
with their sustenance. And the fields were run by women
and two spirit folks, and they would defend them, and
(31:43):
they would defend them well. And so you might kill
someone who's trying to steal your horses, or if you
catch them there, you can take them and put them
in bondage for three years and basically like make them
work for three years. So much higher stakes. Then there's
the actual like village itself. If you come in to
town and steal shit or fuck with people, people just
might really fuck you up, but you also get like
(32:06):
way more credit from your friends if you like fucking
raided their village or whatever. Right, But even if you're
in an actual war with people, you're probably not fucking
with their actual town. And so that's how people are
used to handling shit. Governance and social norms and all
that are different village by village, tribe by tribe, nation
to nation, and presumably year to year. But that's a
way of understanding it in a general way. Okay, And
(32:29):
then white people show up and they're like, yeah, but
what if we just like lie to everyone all the
time and then kill everyone and then act, like, I
don't know, just be as evil as possible while we
do it.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
We lie, we murder, we look bad, we smell bad,
and guess what, We've got a bunch of weird germs.
Oh the worst people ever?
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
What I'm always amazed by, again and again is how
much like kindness people offer to the actual individual people,
you know, like despite this happening.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
Like, yeah, I mean it is, I don't know, again,
more than anyone deserves, but it is beautiful.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
And also, don't help the stinky people.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
No, because if you do, then are eventually going to
invent podcasts and then support them with the ads, just
like these ones Ander Beck. And so people are like,
you know what, we have to fucking fight these people.
And that brings us to non Helena. Non Helena are
(33:33):
here this week. Was born in seventeen eighteen, and I'm
going to put as many quotes as you can possibly
think of around that year of birth because I have
questions specifically around how she had a child at fifty
five years old.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
But oh well, okay, that's one of my favorite kind
of myths to hear, like everyone knows someone who knows
someone who knows someone who had like a seventy year
or you're like yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Yeah, much more likely people weren't keeping track of years
as well. And actually we'll talk about why, because there's
like a paper genocide going on and all this shit.
But okay, there's a bunch of versions about who her
parents are, what her exact lineage is, especially because her
brother gets literally all the credit for all the stuff
that they did together, which is not his fault. It's
just literally white people wrote the story. And yeah, don't
understand women.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
They're like, oh, woman could not do this.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
Yeah, And so people talk about her lineage and stuff.
Sometimes she was Shawnee, we know that much for sure.
Her father might have been a guy named Whitefish, or
it might have been a guy named hard Striker. Her
mother might have been named Katie, but in some things
I've seen, it's implied that she's religiously Moravian already, and
in which case, Katie would be a Christian name that
(34:41):
she had taken. But I find it much more convincing
that her mother was baptized in seventeen fifty five, so
years later into this story. Okay, mom might have been
mixed ancestry and is sometimes called Mattie. And as an aside,
because whenever I learn a thing that probably I feel
like I should have known a very long time ago,
but I only kind of really wrap my head around
it recently because I was aware of Matia as like
(35:05):
a specific cultural thing in Canada, right, Okay, yeah, but
I wasn't sure of it. But okay, So mate is
a word of a bunch of different meetings. When it's capitalized,
you're talking about the Mati people, a specific nation of
indigenous people that's recognized legally in Canada that developed from
mixed ancestry folks. It became its own culture. And this
was more formalized in the late eighteenth century after what
(35:28):
we're talking about today. So I was like, how is
mom mati lower case? It has been used for a
lot longer in the French controlled areas to describe people
of mixed ancestry, and that's how it's being used here. Interesting, okay,
But also there's this whole thing where like sometimes whenever
whenever a person of color does something, people are like,
(35:51):
he was really tall, and then also he had white
in him, So oh.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
Yeah, it's so like, ugh, I do not envy your
position here of like having to like read between the
lines of like colonizer shorthand that's so like he was
really cool, and guess what else about him?
Speaker 2 (36:12):
You're like, yeah, yeah, exactly, but it's also completely possible,
but also doesn't matter, like it doesn't matter if there's
a check person in her ancestry, like who fucking cares?
In some versions of this story, to get more reading
between the lines about how people tell stories and how
hit the victors tell stories, not Jelena's mother is ten
(36:33):
years old in some versions of this story, and her
father was way older. This is almost certainly complete bullshit.
It's either intentional bullshit where over and over again indigenous
manner presented as predatory and white circles for propaganda purposes,
or it's this bullshit thing tied into a paper genocide
where basically people are removed from historical records, so tracking
(36:54):
lineages and dates is really.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
Tricky, right, and then it just turns into it I
would assume a bunch of work to try to figure
out how a person could exit. That's yeah, right, yeah,
And so.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
We do and don't know a lot about non Helena.
She was probably born in seventeen eighteen, as what most
people say. Some people says seventeen twenty. Literally, I would
guess late seventeen twenties just based on look, I'm not
trying to say a fifty five year old isn't having kids,
are running into battle naked like more fucking power. But
like I'm skeptical about some of it, and just to continue,
(37:30):
we don't fucking know anything, but it's interesting what we know.
I enjoy whenever I find the pop history of something,
it always states things like their facts right right, And
then you're like, but that other articles is opposite things
like they're facts, like can we like interrogate this, you
know right?
Speaker 1 (37:47):
God? Okay?
Speaker 2 (37:49):
So to continue with this idea of it, like she's
built as this myth her name might have meant not
a man, non helena and if okay, this could have
been the name she was born with and it could
have come later, especially if it was a name given
to her by the white people she interacted with, who
(38:09):
kept being frustrated that they had to deal with a woman.
And I asked Otter about this, and Otter said she
thinks that maybe it could be the French word gnoll
like n on combined with the Shawnee word for man,
which is heleniki oh okay, but.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
They also like have a word for woman, right, so
it would have to be like a deliberate choice to
go by that.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
Okay, right, huh.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Non. Helena had three brothers. The most famous one and
the only one i've seen also in this story is
known as corn Stock or I've seen it as corn
silk as well.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
And is that the person who's given yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
All the credits? Yeah got it, which they did together.
He deserves just as much of the credit. He just
doesn't deserve all of the credit. Sure. Yeah. Her family
moved around a lot as a kid, but not because
they're like army brats, but because they're being chased by colonization,
and they left probably what was now West Virginia to
move to the Ohio Valley, likely in seventeen thirty. Her
first husband, history doesn't have his name. It's okay, she's
(39:11):
gonna have several husbands. People like to argue two or three.
She's having kids by at least four different people while
still with the husbands, Like she's fucking yeah or not?
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Oops, we don't well, actually I don't know.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
They had access to a mortificance, so these kids were chosen.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Nice.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
She grew up tall as fuck, probably pretty much every
account of her says she was six. With six, I
did find one that was like, she's more than six
feet tall, and I'm like, that feels a little more real. Yeah,
normally this is where I would get transvestigative if as fuck,
and I sure did with Boudica over in Britain. But
the thing is that the Shawnee already have a system
for what to do with gender variants, so there's like
(39:57):
no reason for her to like, right, she's almost certainly
a woman, you know.
Speaker 3 (40:01):
Okay, I mean, well, and now you can take off
just for people who are listening, Magpie did put on
her transvestigator embroidered hat.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Yeah, I know, I keep that around. Yeah. At the
last episode, someone was like, yeah, Margaret's transvestigator in a
good way. I'm like, is there a good one? Is there?
One day I'm going to do my Kurt Cobaine episode
and everyone's going to get mad.
Speaker 3 (40:26):
Oh okay, I mean you got to take the hat
out for that one.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
Yeah, I'm going to do my great Eggs of History episode, which,
by the way, dear listener, is slang for a trans
woman who has not come out yet anyway, because she's
a chick, uh huh, she's going to become a chick.
Speaker 3 (40:41):
Oh, I honestly had never gotten to step two interrogating
that got it? Got it?
Speaker 2 (40:46):
At least that's what I think I mean that part anyway, whatever.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
If there is another reason, I prefer that one.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
Yeah. Absolutely. So It's possible that her height is exaggerated
for propaganda purposes, because she's going to be terrifying when
people soon enough. It's also possible that she was tall
and while she's doing her shit, she had long white hair.
She had long black hair before that, but she had
long white hair and that fucking beautiful image.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
She became chief of her village when she was probably
around thirty two, in seventeen fifty. Her brother Cornstock, is
the chief of the village just across the creek. Her
first husband died in probably seventeen fifty four. She married
another guy named Malantha. And the idea of exactly what
a chief means isn't always clear because shit would be
different in different places. Like I said, Europeans really liked
(41:33):
having one guy in charge, especially a guy in charge,
So there's an eurocentrism that exaggerates the role of chiefs.
But I always have to be careful because I have
a bias in the opposite direction where I want to
believe against hierarchical structuring. So I'm always kind of whenever
I'm like, ah, I didn't really mean that, I'm like
trying to look at my own biases. So I don't know.
Speaker 3 (41:55):
I've found it very difficult to untrain I mean into
untrained and bias in that air in general, but also
to try to just look at something objectively and not
map it on something that I already know.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
So hard.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
It's so hard.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Now, that's such a good point, because that is like
we're patterns seeking creatures, and we're like trying to find
ways to understand things, and like it's so hard with
history because you're like you have a combination of like written,
archaeological and oral traditions is like the main way we
have information from a long time ago, and those don't
(42:31):
always map to each other, and they're also subject to
like how we interpret things changing constantly. Like this is
like the thing I'm obsessed with is basically like trying
to understand just how different the past us and how
differently we treated each other, you know, and like when
we look at things with certain lenses, we're like so
confused by them, but which like.
Speaker 3 (42:52):
Makes the paper genocide element so much. I don't know,
it adds like an element to that that I probably
don't give enough consideration too, which is like, not only
are you a racing history, but you're like denying people
the opportunity to have a structure to be like, oh,
it's like that, but like we don't know what it
is because it's been erased or hidden.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
You know, it's hiding the bodies. But on like a
historical scale, you know, like you're thinking about like because
every now and then I'll read about like massacres and
they'll be like, h six million people died or maybe seven,
and you're like, man, that's a million people.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
That's a big difference.
Speaker 2 (43:26):
Seven are similar, but a million people is a lot.
And I think about it all the time because I'm like,
you kill one person in my family, my family is
going to remember it for a thousand years. You know, well,
not my family. We're bad at keeping track of things.
But but you know, like, but you kill my entire family,
I don't know who knows he's going to remember, you know,
And like, and that's why the many reasons genocide appeals
(43:49):
to the genociders is because they're like, if we kill
enough of these people, then our crimes are erased.
Speaker 3 (43:57):
Right, you know, because it becomes too large a crime
for the brain to be able to easily latch onto
in an emotional.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
Yeah, it's like killing all the witnesses, but on a
nightmare scale. I'm like not surprised whenever, Like I first
heard people saying that the Nazis copied Americans and how
Americans dealt with indigenous people. That was like a huge
part of how they designed the Holocaust or whatever. I
remember I first heard that and I was like, oh, yeah,
that feels trueish And then you're like, oh no, that's
(44:26):
like literally true. That's just like a thing that happened. Yeah,
Like where are the og Nazis they it?
Speaker 3 (44:33):
It only feels sort of true because we're not taught
enough about like how genocidal Americans are.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
Yeah, well, so.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
There's a little bit more in today and then we'll
get to the rest on Wednesday. But I see if
Shawnee villages that she's living in, and they're right next
to a bunch of Moravian Indigenous towns, and the Shawnee
end up pretty central to the resistance against European colonization
and its attendant Jenni side of indigenous people, and they
made the claim who they is a barely sourced it's
(45:04):
in the sources, but like whatever, there's so much myth
making about list. Shawny people are like, we've killed ten
times as many white people as the rest of you, motherfuckers,
and they're pretty proud of that, and I would be too.
Speaker 3 (45:15):
I'm like imagining it's technologically possible. I'm imagining like a chalkboard.
Speaker 2 (45:20):
Yeah, totally. It's a running counter. Yeah. And they're like
a reasonably small tribe. I think they're numbering of the thousands.
They don't have a central governing structure, and they are
fighty for a good reason and pretty good at it.
They fought in the French and Indian War against British
colonists because the British colonists were way worse than the French.
(45:40):
The French were like, oh, that's our territory, and they
were like there, but they weren't there. And I'm not
trying to be like the French were great colonizers, but
you know whatever, Like one side's Jigsaw from the movie
I won't watch and the other sides of the French.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
Wait, why won't you watch it?
Speaker 2 (45:54):
I don't like Gore stuff as much. Watch Oh I.
Speaker 3 (45:57):
Gotta edit oops aal Jigsaw, but just the jigsauce speeches.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
You okay, okay, yeah, okay. So if you do the
like cartoon Gore cut where it's like, oh.
Speaker 3 (46:09):
Oh no, it's literally just a little guy on a tricycle,
if you take it out, which actually is a really
it would be a really pleasant you know, seven to
twelve minutes. If I cut together all the tricycles saw someone.
Speaker 2 (46:23):
Has to This is how we'll do. Like you get
me on beckdel cast to talk about sol and it'll
be the like Magpie safe edit where I'm like not
afraid of horror. I just don't like the insights of bodies.
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (46:32):
I like this guy's message. I wonder what he because look,
say what you will about Jigsaw's methods. He really hates cops.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
Well that I actually shouldn't use this as the metaphor anymore.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
Oh no, it's fine.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
But one side. The British are just nightmare men, Like
I mean, George Washington is literally running around with teeth
he ripped out of people's faces in his mouth, you know,
m like North America is a horror movie. So that's
one side. And then the French are like the French,
and I don't know, they're probably horrible. I haven't read
as much about French colonization, but most Indigenous people in
(47:05):
the French and Indian War, as the name of the
war suggests, sided with the French. The British unfortunately won
that war in seventeen sixty three, and they got a
bunch of new territory from the Native people because the
French were like, oh, yeah, Ohio is ours, Sure you
can have that, even though they didn't live there. In
Indigenous people did and said the British were like, great,
(47:25):
that's ours now. But people were like, no, we don't
want that. We're going to fight and we're going to
call it Pontiac's War because of this guy named Pontiac,
like of the car. Yeah. I was thinking about this
today because I was walking past a Cherokee, like a
jeep Cherokee, and I'm just like, I mean, this is
so obvious. You can get those epiphanies where it's like
(47:46):
something that's obvious and you already know it, but it
hits you really hard anyway. Yeah, that's how I was
feeling today, thinking about Pontiac's war and just being like
walking past a Cherokee car and just like, man, we're.
Speaker 3 (47:58):
Just I'm embarrassed. I didn't know what Pontiac, like, what
that term referenced at all.
Speaker 2 (48:03):
Yeah. No, he was a chief of the Ottawa people,
and he was like, you know, it's like awkward to say,
like lead the rebellion, but he in many ways did.
It was actually him and another guy whose name escapes
me off the top of my head, because actually it
was funny. Is like I think in general, if you
want to be the chrismatic leader of one of these things,
it's less about being the good general and it's more
about getting the disparate groups of people to come together.
(48:25):
Like my favorite stories always are when desparate groups of
people who kind of don't even like each other come
together to fight the big bad.
Speaker 1 (48:31):
Everyone's favorite movie is a version of that.
Speaker 2 (48:33):
Yeah, yeah exactly, And that's what's going to happen, and
we're going to talk about it and non Jelena is
going to get to go into battle naked and covered
in paint on Wednesday.
Speaker 1 (48:45):
I cannot wait to see her in battle.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
You got anything you want to plug here at the end,
for example, you were just talking about a different podcast
where you talk about movies.
Speaker 3 (48:55):
Yes, Oh, look there's this podcast.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
It's better after a decade.
Speaker 3 (48:58):
It's called the back Cast.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
Longer than the Confederacy. That's what you need to do.
Oh should This show has been about as long as
the Confie anyway, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (49:07):
All right, give it a few more years. Yes, we're
built to last, unlike the Confederacy. But you can listen
to the Bechtel Cast every single week. It's an intersexual
feminist podcast I co host with my dear friend Caitlin
Deronte mag Pie.
Speaker 1 (49:19):
You've been on many times. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (49:21):
And then also you can listen to We the End House,
which is a show I produce that is created and
hosted by the wonderful Theo Henderson, where he is covering
issues that affect the un housed from an unhoused perspective.
That's every other Tuesday on iHeart Radio.
Speaker 2 (49:38):
Fuck You. If you want to follow me, you can
by listening to this podcast or googling my name. I
don't know. You can do whatever you want and see
you all on Wednesday.
Speaker 4 (49:51):
Cool people who did cool Stuff is a production of
cool Zone Media. For more podcasts and cool Zone Media,
visit our website coolzonemedia dot com or check us out
up on I Heard Radio, app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you get your podcasts.
Speaker 3 (50:08):
M
Cool Media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Hello, and welcome to Cool People Did Cool Stuff. You're
a weekly reminder that whenever there's bad things happening, there's
people trying to do good things and they often succeed.
And my name is Margaret Kiljoy and I'm your host
and my guest today it's Jamie Loftus. And I waited
until you were taking a drink before I said your
name and made you have to answer.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
I knew you were going to do that, and I
took the drink and I feel like it was a
self sabotaging thing that I just did.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
It's all right, Jamie, How would you describe yourself if
I didn't bother to write a sentence into this script
that is your bio? Oh?
Speaker 1 (00:37):
You know I podcast? Yeah, that's you know.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
You want to say more to make yourself feel better.
But it kind of boils down to that.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
I've probably told you and I've told the audience this
a thousand times about the stress stream I had where
I had to explain at a party what I do
for a living.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
It's a nightmare. It's a nightmare.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Never ask someone what they're are to, like, I end
up doing it because what else are you going to
ask someone, but like.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
How's that weather?
Speaker 3 (01:06):
It's so yeah, You're like what I do is like,
don't worry about it. It's embarrassing. It's embarrassing. If you
don't know already, you don't want to know.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Yeah, that's yeah exactly. Well who isn't embarrassed because she's
not on a podcast today is our producer Sophie Lichterman.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
Oh my gosh, I Sophie is the queen of podcast
She's the least embarrassing person in podcasting.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
It's true, and also the originator of podcasting. Don't ask
me to cite that. It's in the show notes.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
I had a stress dream last night.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
It's always interesting, like whatever, being somewhere in the middle
of the parasocial spectrum where I had a dream that
my favorite podcaster, or like one of my favorite podcasters
who I have like a parasocial relationship with, got like
hit by a car leaving a Broadway show.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Oh my god, I know it's like really specific. Oh
my god, that's Molly Okay.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
She's she's okay, she's safe.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
And it was literally she was leaving a hades town.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Huh, but like.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
And I woke up distraught, being like wait, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Her, but that's really sad. I hope she makes it.
I want to keep listening to the show.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
And you're it was a really weird set of emotions
to wake up with to realize it didn't happen.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Yeah, this is going to be behind the curtain for everyone.
Sometimes when I meet people and they're nervous to meet
me and they're like, sorry, I have kind of parasocial relationship,
and I'm like, I have a para social relationship with
the podcasters I listen to, and Jamie, I use you
as the example of someone that I have a parasocial
relationship with despite knowing in person and considering my friends.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Yes, I feel like there are certain because I feel
the same way. And when I met Molly earlier this year,
I was like, we know about the personal details of
each other's lives, and yet you're always like in full makeup.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
In my mind, yeah, totally beautiful.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Actually, ooh, someone in full makeup is the protagonist of
this story.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Oh okay, I wonder if it's well, I guess yeah,
in a cool way. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
No, they're in battle paint. Yeah, she's in battle paint
the whole time. We also have help from not just
an absent producer who's not actually absent in spirit and
helps make the show happen, Sophie. We also have help
from Eva, who's our audio engineer, Hi Eva Wow. And
our theme music was written for us by un woman Jamie.
(03:32):
How do you feel about very tall women who fight
against empires?
Speaker 1 (03:38):
I love Sarah Marshall's work. I'm a big fan.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Yeah, me too.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
I feel good about it.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Excellent, this is gonna work out well. I don't tend
to do the like National History Month things because I
try to challenge myself to not separate out types of history,
like to not only cover indigenous stories in November, for example. Sure,
but it is nearly the end of November, and I've
been covering people fighting against Rome and sort of the
(04:10):
original fighting against Empire. But I haven't been covering enough
of the fighting against empire that happened here in North America.
And so this is my Thanksgiving episode about people who
killed American patriots.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
Let's go all right.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
A couple weeks ago, I covered a Celtic rebel named Boudica.
Have you ever heard of this woman? No, she was
this warrior queen of the ICINAI people in Britain, and
she led a revolt against the Romans and nearly drove
them out of England, though, and she burned London to
the ground, which is a pretty cool thing to do. Wow, okay,
and by all accounts, she was remarkably tall and strong
(04:50):
for a woman at the time, and I was like, okay, okay,
and then okay, just to go ahead and spoil the
end of that particular episode, no one's ever found her grave.
People believe that she's real, like all these people wrote
about her. No one's ever found her grave. And at
one point people found a grave with her name on
it very recently, but had a man's skeleton in it,
so they're like, ah, we still haven't found it and
(05:11):
kept moving, which as a trans woman I have feelings about.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Sure, but when was that?
Speaker 2 (05:19):
When did they find it? Or oh the resistance was
in Oh crap, it's been a couple weeks since I
covered it, like the year like sixty oh orthing like that,
oka like a long long time ago, thousand years ago.
And then last week I covered more resistance to Rome
when Germans drove the empire out, And I remember thinking
all these times, covering all this resistance to Roman expansion. Wow,
(05:42):
this feels so parallel to European colonization in North America.
And it's not one for one. You know, and a
friend of mine, Otter, is an Afro Indigenous historian, Hi Otter,
if you're listening. And Otter wrote me and said, good
job covering Budica. Do you know about the Shawnee version
of her?
Speaker 4 (06:01):
Who?
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Okay? And I had not known, so she told me
about non Helemma. You ever heard of non Helemma?
Speaker 4 (06:08):
No.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
I feel like, like probably most kids of the American
public school system, I know far too little about indigenous history.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Yeah. I absolutely had to trace my hand and then
make a turkey out of it. That's that's kind of I.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Also, I grew up like forty five minutes from Plymouth Plantation.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
They were really shit.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
I mean they were pouring the kool aid in vast
quantities when I was growing up.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Yeah. Well, this is an Ohio story. And this is
a story about an indigenous woman who was a chief,
a warrior, a diplomat, and also a cougar just kept
having kids with men who were like decades younger than her.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Hell yeah, okay, and she.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Did most of her fighting in Pontiac's War, which was
before the American Revolution, and so there she was six
foot six according to every source in it, which everyone
is a little bit like, maybe maybe she's six foot six. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
I do like when because I feel like height is
ultimately a feeling totally, and it's like, how tall do
you make people feel? Because I'm almost six feet tall
and no one ever thinks that. Yeah, my energy is
not six feet tall, and I have accepted that, But
I feel like height is a state of mind.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
I have ever told you that I lost an inch
by transitioning.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Really, wait where did it go?
Speaker 2 (07:32):
So, just to give you a pair of social people,
way too much information about me, I am five foot
nine and three quarters. I have always been five foot
nine and three quarters. When I was a boy, I
would go to the doctor and they would measure me
and it's so, oh, you're five foot ten. And then
I went to the doctor as a girl. They round
(07:53):
it down, and they rounded down.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
They do round it down. Wow, So nothing changed.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
I know, nothing changed us to give up. I'm like,
I am still five foot ten. You can round that up.
I am not cheating. I am not lying. Five foot
nine and three quarters whatever.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
I'm told five to eleven at the doctor, but I
know the truth.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
Yeah six foot six, Yeah, I'm also six six Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
So in Pontiac's War, there she is six foot six,
forty five years old going into battle naked and painted
and black body paint. Incredible, And so as soon as
I had that image, I was like, Yeah, I like
this lady.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
I'm in.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Her story is kind of complicated. It is hard to
find clearcut perfect shining heroes and history period, and you
kind of can't win if you were native in North America.
Well probably ever, but I'm specifically talking about in the
era right around the Revolutionary War. So she's gonna take
a bit of a heel turn. But you know, she's
(08:54):
a fascinating person. But first context. I don't know if
you knew this, Jamie, but North America has been a
colonized place for a while now, about five hundred years.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
Wait, what if I needed that context? Isn't that the
best part of writing the podcast script when you're like
context and then you're like three hundred years before while
we're talking about wait something.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Oh, I'm absolutely going to go exactly three hundred years before.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
It's the point, Yes, Okay.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
I'm going to tie in heretical cults from Bohemia. Really
soon take me back, I'm ready. Most people know the
year fourteen ninety two, of course, as the year that
Christians demanded that all the Jews and Muslims leave Spain.
But also in fourteen ninety two, some Italian slaver discovered
that he could get really famous by showing up at
(09:46):
a place people already lived and then claiming to discover
that place and then enslaving the people who lived there.
His name is Christopher Columbus. He's not a hero. Our
story takes more place in the eighteenth century, the seventeen hundreds.
I actually I write that into the script for myself.
Whenever I do the like eighteenth century seventeen hundreds, I
do that because my brain still does not wrap my
(10:08):
head around that.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
I fuck that up every single time I have to
do it. And then it's one of those little things
that when someone corrects me on that, I'm like, I
don't care. Yeah, they should fix that.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Yeah, the problem totally. It's like when you're late on
daylight savings time or whatever. You're like, yeah, man, I
didn't build this problem.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
Yeah, You're like the system is broken. I'm behaving rationally.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Yeah. So for the first half of the eighteenth century,
you have all these British colonies on the east coast,
stopping at the Appalachian Mountains to their west, or Appalachian
Mountains if you're in the north. And then there's New
France in what's now Canada, and there's a whole bunch
of disputed territory that a fuck ton of people already
lived in and they just weren't Europeans, so people didn't
(10:54):
ask their opinion about what should be done with all
that territory. And the main groups of pep people we're
going to talk about today are the Shawnee. It's a
nation that started off kind of around the mid Atlantic,
like what's now Maryland, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Virginia. And then
there's the Lenape, who are a little bit east and
north of that, like Delaware and New Jersey and New York.
(11:15):
All these people are still here. To be clear, I'm
using the past tense just about where they were living traditionally.
And then you have a third group of people who
aren't necessarily distinct, but it's a different culture, the Moravians.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
I'm not familiar with the Moravians.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
You're not familiar with the Moravian Church. I can't believe
you're not familiar with the Moravian Church that I learned
about this week, because I'm going to start this story
in the fourteen hundreds and fucking Bohemia, the Kingdom of
Bohemia what's now the Czech Republic.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
Yeah, of course you are. We are of course going
back there, yeaheah.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
And it's going to tie into another story. I'm interested
in the Hussites and the Taborites.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Yeah, my good friends.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Yeah, well, actually the Bohemian Adamites are the best, but
we'll get to them later, Okay, all right. You know
how in queer circles people find the most unhinged shit
to get angry and discourse about. Like, I can't believe
you're polyamorous and not a relationship anarchist. You are literally
the oppressor. You have a partner that's just inherently wrong,
(12:20):
you know, m h. Sometimes I read about old church
heresies and I'm expecting like juicy stuff, like sometimes you
get this right. Sometimes you get like the Ranters who
were a free love call that thought there was no
such thing as sin, and everyone should fucking big orgies
and share everything, and that's legitimately a pretty major break
(12:41):
from traditional Catholic teachings, right. But then the other heresies
that you find that people got burned alive for, and
there are things like what caused the Moravian thing? Hey,
we believe you should have bread and wine at communion?
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Ooh, I kind of love those where you're like, it's
just a scooch above a perceived slight and you're like,
I can kill you for that.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Yeah, we're gonna have some crusades about this. Literally, they're
going to have crusades about this.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
So wait, that's the Moravian They want bread and wine
and that's against God.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
There's a couple things okay that is like yeah, somehow
but okay, And so then there's other things like this
one isn't the Moravian ones, But you'll find heresies that
are like what if the Holy Trinity is like based
and cool and all that shit, but what if the
three parts are actually different and not on the same level,
And people will be like, we're gonna fucking kill you,
or like what if the bread and wine is a
metaphor and doesn't literally become flesh and blood in our stomachs.
(13:38):
Wouldn't it be nice to not be doing cannibalism each week?
And they're like, we're gonna fucking cut your head off,
We're going to kill you.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Yeah, this does feel like a lot of like leftist
circles too, or exactly wait what does that mean?
Speaker 1 (13:50):
And they're like, no, you got we gotta kill her,
she's gotta go. Yeah yeah, okay, cool.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
Yeah, as long as humanity will never learn or improve,
I feel like that's.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
The US, that is the important thing. Yes, okay. So
the Kingdom of Bohemia in what's now the Czech Republic
near Germany, they're thinking about wanting some church reformation years
before Martin Luther and his Protestantism. Did you know that
there's a Protestant church that comes from sixty years before
Martin Luther?
Speaker 3 (14:18):
But no, wait and neither did I Did he take
credit for it? How does that work?
Speaker 2 (14:25):
He did a different Protestant Reformation?
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Oh that's tough. That's tough.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
It's like when they make the do you remember when
they made two movies about Truman Capoti the same year
and it's like, sorry, there can actually only be one.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Yeah. Yeah, people are only gonna remember one.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Yeah, they've gone a different way. Okay.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Yeah, when someone invents the new thing and then someone
does it slightly better and you're like, I was here first,
and they're like, no one cares that you were here first.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
Yeah, they're like good idea.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Bye.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Yeah, that's the Moravian Church who are still around.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
They're still around.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Yeah, the Moravian Yeah, it is very very small group.
But so sixty years before okay, So, so peasants were like, honestly, yeah,
I guess we care about the bread and wine thing,
but actually it's about how the church is taxing us
into starvation and live like kings. And so there's a
guy named Jan huss and the Catholic Church burned him
(15:17):
at the stake in the year fourteen eighteen, and people
were like, we don't approve you having killed this man.
And so you start getting this bigger rebellion against the
Catholic Church, and a bunch of like the nobles and
stuff are being on it too. They're like, actually, we
don't want the church being super rich in our area
instead of us. And then the peasants were like, what
if actually everyone was equal and everyone's like no, we're
not gonna listen to you.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
They're like, no, no, no, no, no, we're on the same
side for totally different reasons right now.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Yeah, yeah, cool, But do you know who should be
unbelievably wealthy? Who you, dear listener, if you take advantage
of the goods and services, unless it's gambling, and especially
gambling on your phone, in which case, don't do that.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
Yeah, don't gamble on your phone, and certainly don't join ice.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
No oh god. And yeah. Every now and then those
ads get through.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Every once in a while you're like, and there.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Yeah, but if it's anything else, it'll make you fantastically wealthy.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
By the cream. Oh yeah, by the cream.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
That's right, here's ads and we're back. So all of
a sudden, you have these Hussites, right, the Hussies. They're
not called Hussies, but I'm going to call them Hussies.
And they're into the idea that priests shouldn't hoard wealth
but actually live in a christ like way, and that
priest should be shouldn't be immune to civil court punishment.
(16:38):
This one took me a million years. I read the
four Articles of Prague and I was like, why am
I down this rabbit hole. I'm just trying to dream
about this thing. But she's going to end up a Moravian,
so we're going to get to that. So this is
the reason that we're talking about this and the four
Articles of Prague. One of them is like, and everyone
needs to be prosecuted for sin, and I'm like, man,
that one's sketchy. I don't know how I feel about
(16:58):
that one. But what they actually meant was that priests
need to be held accountable in civil courts.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
It's so interesting, like the ways that various groups define
and like deploy the term Christ Like, like it really
just depends on who you're talking to, because every once in.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
A while, I'm like, I'm with it.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Yeahs Jesus. Sometimes he just wants everyone to be nice
to each other and share stuff.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
Yeah. Sometimes it's like I just want you to be friendly.
Other times it's like, no, sorry, you're confusing Jesus with God.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
And so there's all of these sects within the Hussites.
They're having this huge rebellion, and there's like the more
moderate ones who I forget the name of, and then
there's more radical ones We're called the Taborites. So I
think I'm going to get to you later because as
I learn more about them, I think that they might
be like kind of like proto Christian anarchistic type people,
and so I like them, but I don't know yet.
Don't take my word for that. But I can't tell
you that one of the sections was the Bohemian Adamites,
(18:02):
and what they were doing is they were looking back
at a thousand year old sect of Christians from North
Africa called the Adamites, and they were like, the Adamites
had it right. And do you know what the Adamites
were into? What mass should be naked? Okay, everyone should
share everything absolutely, that includes sexual partners. Those who marry
(18:22):
will not see the Kingdom of Heaven.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
Oh okay.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
So it's a free love church.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Huh, nice, nice, free love nudist church.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
Okay, okay, and we're back.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
They can hit you commies.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
Bohemian Adamites sounds like like a band that would really
do well with like middle schoolers.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
That's cool.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Adam and the Ants is new side project. And it's
not certain whether or not they had orgies. The people
who like to demonize them this that they had orgies.
I also believe they probably had orgies. Why else are
they doing this?
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Right?
Speaker 2 (18:56):
But they lived on a little island to themselves. They
were convinced the world was ending, so they called themselves
the Saints of the Last Days.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Okay, Wow, dramatic of them.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
I'm fucking idiot.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
Yeah, I like it. So they want to be naked
and fuck and they're dramatic.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
They also didn't like working, and they were like, no,
we don't want to be productive.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Fuck that nice okay.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
And they like to go streaking through various villages and
towns and shit. I think this was their like proselytizing.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
I like that They're like, let's just do a silly one. Yeah,
do a silly one.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
I think they all got murdered, but I'm not sure.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
Unfortunately, I feel like that's the only way that ends.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
I know, too much fun, We're like too much fun.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Yeah. Even the other Hussites were like, y'all making us
look bad. We're very serious, you know, they're just goofing off.
There's a gap year energy to this religion. Yeah, And
I love that. It's like I can point to the
ranters were really similar during the English Civil War era.
(20:05):
I love that whenever there's like a kind of a
break in like normal culture. People are like, I think
God wants us to fuck.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
It would be against God if we didn't start fucking
right now.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Yeah, right, guys, it's what Christ would want.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
That's Christ like. I mean that's a great weaponization of Christ.
Like Christ would have sex with me. Yeah, I think absolutely,
that's probably the christ like thing. I think that everyone
needs to live like Christ in this particular way. M
hyeah famously naked at least when he was on the cross.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Or that's true.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
It's so wild how it just like Grandma's have christ
hog just in the bathroom totally, something I reflect on
sometimes where you're like it's just out and you're like
pooping and looking at Jesus's cock.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
It's easy totally. And he also has that wound pussy.
But anyway, it's true. The was it was some of
the Hussies. They decide in fourteen fifty seven they're going
to form a church that's wholly separate from the Catholic Church.
Originally they were like, hey, could we just be kind
of autonomous within the Catholic Church, And the Catholic Church
(21:18):
is like, we're literally gonna call a crusade and so
actually the Crusaders got their aspect, but one day I'll
cover that whole story, and so you get the first
Protestant Reformation sixty years before Martin Luther's ninety five. Theces
and people who believe the wrong thing often have to
leave to go from one place to another. So in
seventeen twenty seven, a good while later, a bunch of
(21:42):
Hussites from Moravia, which is next to Bohemia, fucked off
to Germany, or rather Germany didn't exist, so they fucked
off to Saxony near Poland. And they did this to
escape the counter Reformation, aka, we're going to kill all
the heretics. At this point, they're called the Moravians, which
is where most of them are.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
And there's still like a pretty fairly small community.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
That's my impression, but I didn't. As always, I know
way more about like shit that happened in like the
eighteenth century than whatever century we're in now.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
Well, I bet it's also hard to find like good
sources on stuff like this too.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Yeah, And it's like some of the history is actually
written by the modern Church being like, hey, this is
our history, right, but it's hard to then find like
here's how many there are currently or are they a cult?
Speaker 3 (22:29):
Right?
Speaker 2 (22:29):
You know, it's like.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Famously hate to disclose that.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. And so if they show up
in Saxony and then pretty much right away a bunch
of them go off to the New World and a
lot of them end up in the Colony of New
York and they would set up in these towns. They
would start these towns that were mixed between their like German,
Czech themselves and indigenous folks, especially Lenape, Mohican and Cherokee people.
(22:57):
And you didn't have to convert to live there. And
so these were like some of the as far as
I can tell, some of the like seemed like at
the time, although we'll get to it safer places and
you could kind of like European eyes or whatever a
little bit, which isn't I'm not putting a moral statement
on that. It's just a thing that happened, and you
(23:17):
didn't have to convert to live there. But most of
them end up doing that, as far as I can tell.
And in seventeen forty four, the New York colonial government
was like, you can't be here, you're weird Germans. We
don't like that, and also stop doing that, and so
they kicked them out of New York, okay. And so
at this point they start moving into indigenous villages directly,
(23:37):
especially in Ohio where a ton of Lenape folks had
moved because they had already been driven out too. And
these Lenape villages they're essentially European and character and architecture,
though not in language. And this is going to come
up later. And these are sometimes called praying Indian towns,
all right, So that's the Moravians. They are going to
be influential to this story, Sara.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
So the hippies are getting in on colonizing, uh huh, okay,
got it.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
But it's a complicated because also already a lot of
these towns are indigenous people, right right. That's like the
weird thing about religious colonization and conversion. It's like, unlike
the Americans who are like, we're going to fuck murder
you all. The Christians, which many of the Americans are,
right are going to be like, well, no, we just
want to make you have our religion or.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Whatever, strip you of your native culture.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Yeah, totally. But it's also like a lot of the
people doing that are indigenous people who are like this
is what we're choosing to do, right, And so I
feel like weird being like they shouldn't have done that.
And I'm like, man, I'll fucking know, right, totally, yeah,
but yeah it is one of the best. Like I
was on tour a couple of years ago with a
book called A Country It Ghosts. It's like utopian story.
(24:48):
And I was at this book and I was at
this indigenous info shop in New Mexico called Taalahugan, and
I was talking about this and this one person who
was at the talk, this guy named Kleebana Rest in Peace.
He died a couple of years ago. He's a game
writer and a regular writer and made a bunch of
stuff and he was like, look, you're here talking about utopia.
(25:09):
Like my people were like colonized by people here looking
for utopia. And it was such an important I didn't
have a counter argument. I was like, yeah, no, you're right,
Like that is the danger of utopianism, right. And it's
interesting because I get the impression that there's some level
of like Tara nullis, that's like, Oh, we're going to
show up and it's everything's going to be empty. I
(25:30):
think the Moravians were a little different than that, but
I don't know. I don't know at all, right.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
I mean, it's especially tricky when the main source for
the history of the Moravians is the Moravians.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Right, totally, all right, So the Shawnee people, who by
and large are not the Lenape. Some of the Lenape
have become religiously Moravian, not all of them, you know,
and the Shawnee are a little bit separate from that,
but they're in the same geography very heavily. By the
time our story gets going, and I'm going to use
some generalizations here as few as possible, but in general,
(26:01):
the Shawnee people are again, are still around, but I'm
talking about them in the seventeen hundreds, patrilineal, but with
a whole lot more gender balance than what you saw
in Europe at the time. The Shawne people at the
time used what was called a bilateral system. So there's
like a lot of if you read like the pop history,
you're like, oh, she's a chief, and then people are like, woh,
she's a woman chief. And then you get into it
and you're like, as you go up the exploding brain,
(26:22):
you're like, yeah, of course she was. That was completely normal.
But then you keep going up and you're like, actually,
what does chief even mean? That's kind of a like
eurocentric thing that gets put onto Shawnee people.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
I guess, like map, yeah, yeah, so what does it
mean in this context?
Speaker 2 (26:36):
I know for certain what it means in the context
when they start talking about it. There's a word here,
but it's like basically a central chief, like chief of chiefs.
I know that that was created later in order to
allow people to actually interact with white people, because white
people will be like, but we want to talk to
who's in charge, and they were like, you can't. People
are in charge, right, okay, and so they kind of
had to create a system like that. I believe that
(26:58):
the chief thing was a little bit more flat. But also,
again according to Otter is one of my main sources
for this, it's really different at different times in places. Okay,
but I can say that in war you are going
to have like more leaders, war leaders and things like that,
and you also have peace leaders anyway, Okay, so during
times of peace you have the men's lodge and the
women's lodge, and they made decisions together. During times of war,
(27:21):
the men's Council would be entirely focused on issues of war.
The Women's Council would break into two groups, one continuing
domestic affairs and the other being the Matriarch's War Council.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Ooh, I know, I'm kind of like that's fun. Okay,
another good band name.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Yeah, And you can't declare war without all three groups
of people agreeing to it, okay. As an aside, I
fell down a rabbit hole reading a book from eighteen
thirty two about the Moravian work to Christianize indigenous people
in North America because I was trying to answer some
of those questions we were talking about earlier about how
they perceived it.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
This is the most magpie story I've ever heard.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
It is what I felt that just rabbit hole up
to rabbit hole, and so it goes on and on
about how Indians and that gets scare quotes were basically
the nicest heathen people of any heathen people in the world,
and they were actually more moral than most Christians already.
And this is mostly based on the Lenape people they met,
(28:16):
but they are also making these claims as generalizations of
the people of all of North America, and by that
they mean roughly like the Northeast. But I like this
following paragraph. I'm we're going to quote because basically, I
think the inference here is, yeah, these folks were gay
as hell.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
In the converse of both sexes, the greatest decency and
propriety is observed, at least nothing lashivious. I don't know
how to pronounce that word. I don't care. Or indecent
is openly allowed, so that in this respect it cannot
be denied that they excel most nations. But in secret
they are nevertheless guilty of fornication and even of un
(28:53):
natural crimes.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
Ooh okay, Yeah, maybe it was just you read, but
it sounds like there's an implied comma and we're into that.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Yeah, totally, absolutely that rocks o'kay' never going to be
too far from the Adamites end of all things.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Yes, wow, unnatural crimes. I love an unnatural crime being invoked.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Yeah, okay. And another thing that is worth understanding to
understand this story. This is some of the earlier. The
colonization has been going on for hundreds years already, but
this is like a little bit earlier than most of
the quote unquote Indian Wars that we've talked about on
the show before, and most of the people in this
story are not used to the idea of total war.
(29:38):
Total war is sort of the idea that you're like,
kill civilians, We're just going to crush people, destroy them
as a people like, you know, mobilize an entire society
to destroy another society. Like you don't go to war
because you go to white people out in North America
before white people as a broad generalization, and the white
(29:58):
people showed up. The shiny people are going to them
long knives at this point in the eighteenth century.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
Okay, better than they deserve.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
But I know, and once again, okay, one of my
main sources here, I'm just gonna shout out my friend
Otter again, who sent me some of her notes directly,
and she has a substack and she writes a ton
about this stuff, and it's called Greetings from Sundown, Ohio.
So basically, war at the time meant something so completely
different than it meant in Europe, and in any given village,
(30:25):
you would have three spheres like layers of an onion,
which is a Shrek reference for you, Jamie.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
Okay, thank you so much. Now my brain is I'm
not gonna be able to sleep tonight. My sleeper cell
has been activating.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Sleepless cell.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
So there's like three spheres where you can kind of
do war right out in the woods and shit, like
where people hunt and forage, areas that aren't really directly
controlled by people. You have a sort of ceremonial type
of warfare where people, mostly young men, would fight each
other and wrestle and taunt each other and sometimes play
pickup games of stickball to see who's better, and sometimes
(31:02):
people get injured. Sometimes rarely people would die, and this
is the safest place to fight. If you're like, oh
I hate those people, you can kind of go fight
them in the woods. And it's like it is what
it is, all right, the high school rivalry.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
I mean war explained it anyway. Yeah, it's like it
comes down to Yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Then you have the fields that people actually use. This
is a closer layer of the onion. If you show
up to russell horses or steal corn or whatever, then
you're playing for way higher stakes because you're fucking with
people closer to their home and you're fucking more directly
with their sustenance. And the fields were run by women
and two spirit folks, and they would defend them, and
(31:43):
they would defend them well. And so you might kill
someone who's trying to steal your horses, or if you
catch them there, you can take them and put them
in bondage for three years and basically like make them
work for three years. So much higher stakes. Then there's
the actual like village itself. If you come in to
town and steal shit or fuck with people, people just
might really fuck you up, but you also get like
(32:06):
way more credit from your friends if you like fucking
raided their village or whatever. Right, But even if you're
in an actual war with people, you're probably not fucking
with their actual town. And so that's how people are
used to handling shit. Governance and social norms and all
that are different village by village, tribe by tribe, nation
to nation, and presumably year to year. But that's a
way of understanding it in a general way. Okay, And
(32:29):
then white people show up and they're like, yeah, but
what if we just like lie to everyone all the
time and then kill everyone and then act, like, I
don't know, just be as evil as possible while we
do it.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
We lie, we murder, we look bad, we smell bad,
and guess what, We've got a bunch of weird germs.
Oh the worst people ever?
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
What I'm always amazed by, again and again is how
much like kindness people offer to the actual individual people,
you know, like despite this happening.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
Like, yeah, I mean it is, I don't know, again,
more than anyone deserves, but it is beautiful.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
And also, don't help the stinky people.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
No, because if you do, then are eventually going to
invent podcasts and then support them with the ads, just
like these ones Ander Beck. And so people are like,
you know what, we have to fucking fight these people.
And that brings us to non Helena. Non Helena are
(33:33):
here this week. Was born in seventeen eighteen, and I'm
going to put as many quotes as you can possibly
think of around that year of birth because I have
questions specifically around how she had a child at fifty
five years old.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
But oh well, okay, that's one of my favorite kind
of myths to hear, like everyone knows someone who knows
someone who knows someone who had like a seventy year
or you're like yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Yeah, much more likely people weren't keeping track of years
as well. And actually we'll talk about why, because there's
like a paper genocide going on and all this shit.
But okay, there's a bunch of versions about who her
parents are, what her exact lineage is, especially because her
brother gets literally all the credit for all the stuff
that they did together, which is not his fault. It's
just literally white people wrote the story. And yeah, don't
understand women.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
They're like, oh, woman could not do this.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
Yeah, And so people talk about her lineage and stuff.
Sometimes she was Shawnee, we know that much for sure.
Her father might have been a guy named Whitefish, or
it might have been a guy named hard Striker. Her
mother might have been named Katie, but in some things
I've seen, it's implied that she's religiously Moravian already, and
in which case, Katie would be a Christian name that
(34:41):
she had taken. But I find it much more convincing
that her mother was baptized in seventeen fifty five, so
years later into this story. Okay, mom might have been
mixed ancestry and is sometimes called Mattie. And as an aside,
because whenever I learn a thing that probably I feel
like I should have known a very long time ago,
but I only kind of really wrap my head around
it recently because I was aware of Matia as like
(35:05):
a specific cultural thing in Canada, right, Okay, yeah, but
I wasn't sure of it. But okay, So mate is
a word of a bunch of different meetings. When it's capitalized,
you're talking about the Mati people, a specific nation of
indigenous people that's recognized legally in Canada that developed from
mixed ancestry folks. It became its own culture. And this
was more formalized in the late eighteenth century after what
(35:28):
we're talking about today. So I was like, how is
mom mati lower case? It has been used for a
lot longer in the French controlled areas to describe people
of mixed ancestry, and that's how it's being used here. Interesting, okay,
But also there's this whole thing where like sometimes whenever
whenever a person of color does something, people are like,
(35:51):
he was really tall, and then also he had white
in him, So oh.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
Yeah, it's so like, ugh, I do not envy your
position here of like having to like read between the
lines of like colonizer shorthand that's so like he was
really cool, and guess what else about him?
Speaker 2 (36:12):
You're like, yeah, yeah, exactly, but it's also completely possible,
but also doesn't matter, like it doesn't matter if there's
a check person in her ancestry, like who fucking cares?
In some versions of this story, to get more reading
between the lines about how people tell stories and how
hit the victors tell stories, not Jelena's mother is ten
(36:33):
years old in some versions of this story, and her
father was way older. This is almost certainly complete bullshit.
It's either intentional bullshit where over and over again indigenous
manner presented as predatory and white circles for propaganda purposes,
or it's this bullshit thing tied into a paper genocide
where basically people are removed from historical records, so tracking
(36:54):
lineages and dates is really.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
Tricky, right, and then it just turns into it I
would assume a bunch of work to try to figure
out how a person could exit. That's yeah, right, yeah,
And so.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
We do and don't know a lot about non Helena.
She was probably born in seventeen eighteen, as what most
people say. Some people says seventeen twenty. Literally, I would
guess late seventeen twenties just based on look, I'm not
trying to say a fifty five year old isn't having kids,
are running into battle naked like more fucking power. But
like I'm skeptical about some of it, and just to continue,
(37:30):
we don't fucking know anything, but it's interesting what we know.
I enjoy whenever I find the pop history of something,
it always states things like their facts right right, And
then you're like, but that other articles is opposite things
like they're facts, like can we like interrogate this, you
know right?
Speaker 1 (37:47):
God? Okay?
Speaker 2 (37:49):
So to continue with this idea of it, like she's
built as this myth her name might have meant not
a man, non helena and if okay, this could have
been the name she was born with and it could
have come later, especially if it was a name given
to her by the white people she interacted with, who
(38:09):
kept being frustrated that they had to deal with a woman.
And I asked Otter about this, and Otter said she
thinks that maybe it could be the French word gnoll
like n on combined with the Shawnee word for man,
which is heleniki oh okay, but.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
They also like have a word for woman, right, so
it would have to be like a deliberate choice to
go by that.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
Okay, right, huh.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Non. Helena had three brothers. The most famous one and
the only one i've seen also in this story is
known as corn Stock or I've seen it as corn
silk as well.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
And is that the person who's given yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
All the credits? Yeah got it, which they did together.
He deserves just as much of the credit. He just
doesn't deserve all of the credit. Sure. Yeah. Her family
moved around a lot as a kid, but not because
they're like army brats, but because they're being chased by colonization,
and they left probably what was now West Virginia to
move to the Ohio Valley, likely in seventeen thirty. Her
first husband, history doesn't have his name. It's okay, she's
(39:11):
gonna have several husbands. People like to argue two or three.
She's having kids by at least four different people while
still with the husbands, Like she's fucking yeah or not?
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Oops, we don't well, actually I don't know.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
They had access to a mortificance, so these kids were chosen.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Nice.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
She grew up tall as fuck, probably pretty much every
account of her says she was six. With six, I
did find one that was like, she's more than six
feet tall, and I'm like, that feels a little more real. Yeah,
normally this is where I would get transvestigative if as fuck,
and I sure did with Boudica over in Britain. But
the thing is that the Shawnee already have a system
for what to do with gender variants, so there's like
(39:57):
no reason for her to like, right, she's almost certainly
a woman, you know.
Speaker 3 (40:01):
Okay, I mean, well, and now you can take off
just for people who are listening, Magpie did put on
her transvestigator embroidered hat.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Yeah, I know, I keep that around. Yeah. At the
last episode, someone was like, yeah, Margaret's transvestigator in a
good way. I'm like, is there a good one? Is there?
One day I'm going to do my Kurt Cobaine episode
and everyone's going to get mad.
Speaker 3 (40:26):
Oh okay, I mean you got to take the hat
out for that one.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
Yeah, I'm going to do my great Eggs of History episode, which,
by the way, dear listener, is slang for a trans
woman who has not come out yet anyway, because she's
a chick, uh huh, she's going to become a chick.
Speaker 3 (40:41):
Oh, I honestly had never gotten to step two interrogating
that got it? Got it?
Speaker 2 (40:46):
At least that's what I think I mean that part anyway, whatever.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
If there is another reason, I prefer that one.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
Yeah. Absolutely. So It's possible that her height is exaggerated
for propaganda purposes, because she's going to be terrifying when
people soon enough. It's also possible that she was tall
and while she's doing her shit, she had long white hair.
She had long black hair before that, but she had
long white hair and that fucking beautiful image.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
She became chief of her village when she was probably
around thirty two, in seventeen fifty. Her brother Cornstock, is
the chief of the village just across the creek. Her
first husband died in probably seventeen fifty four. She married
another guy named Malantha. And the idea of exactly what
a chief means isn't always clear because shit would be
different in different places. Like I said, Europeans really liked
(41:33):
having one guy in charge, especially a guy in charge,
So there's an eurocentrism that exaggerates the role of chiefs.
But I always have to be careful because I have
a bias in the opposite direction where I want to
believe against hierarchical structuring. So I'm always kind of whenever
I'm like, ah, I didn't really mean that, I'm like
trying to look at my own biases. So I don't know.
Speaker 3 (41:55):
I've found it very difficult to untrain I mean into
untrained and bias in that air in general, but also
to try to just look at something objectively and not
map it on something that I already know.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
So hard.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
It's so hard.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Now, that's such a good point, because that is like
we're patterns seeking creatures, and we're like trying to find
ways to understand things, and like it's so hard with
history because you're like you have a combination of like written,
archaeological and oral traditions is like the main way we
have information from a long time ago, and those don't
(42:31):
always map to each other, and they're also subject to
like how we interpret things changing constantly. Like this is
like the thing I'm obsessed with is basically like trying
to understand just how different the past us and how
differently we treated each other, you know, and like when
we look at things with certain lenses, we're like so
confused by them, but which like.
Speaker 3 (42:52):
Makes the paper genocide element so much. I don't know,
it adds like an element to that that I probably
don't give enough consideration too, which is like, not only
are you a racing history, but you're like denying people
the opportunity to have a structure to be like, oh,
it's like that, but like we don't know what it
is because it's been erased or hidden.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
You know, it's hiding the bodies. But on like a
historical scale, you know, like you're thinking about like because
every now and then I'll read about like massacres and
they'll be like, h six million people died or maybe seven,
and you're like, man, that's a million people.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
That's a big difference.
Speaker 2 (43:26):
Seven are similar, but a million people is a lot.
And I think about it all the time because I'm like,
you kill one person in my family, my family is
going to remember it for a thousand years. You know, well,
not my family. We're bad at keeping track of things.
But but you know, like, but you kill my entire family,
I don't know who knows he's going to remember, you know,
And like, and that's why the many reasons genocide appeals
(43:49):
to the genociders is because they're like, if we kill
enough of these people, then our crimes are erased.
Speaker 3 (43:57):
Right, you know, because it becomes too large a crime
for the brain to be able to easily latch onto
in an emotional.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
Yeah, it's like killing all the witnesses, but on a
nightmare scale. I'm like not surprised whenever, Like I first
heard people saying that the Nazis copied Americans and how
Americans dealt with indigenous people. That was like a huge
part of how they designed the Holocaust or whatever. I
remember I first heard that and I was like, oh, yeah,
that feels trueish And then you're like, oh no, that's
(44:26):
like literally true. That's just like a thing that happened. Yeah,
Like where are the og Nazis they it?
Speaker 3 (44:33):
It only feels sort of true because we're not taught
enough about like how genocidal Americans are.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
Yeah, well, so.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
There's a little bit more in today and then we'll
get to the rest on Wednesday. But I see if
Shawnee villages that she's living in, and they're right next
to a bunch of Moravian Indigenous towns, and the Shawnee
end up pretty central to the resistance against European colonization
and its attendant Jenni side of indigenous people, and they
made the claim who they is a barely sourced it's
(45:04):
in the sources, but like whatever, there's so much myth
making about list. Shawny people are like, we've killed ten
times as many white people as the rest of you, motherfuckers,
and they're pretty proud of that, and I would be too.
Speaker 3 (45:15):
I'm like imagining it's technologically possible. I'm imagining like a chalkboard.
Speaker 2 (45:20):
Yeah, totally. It's a running counter. Yeah. And they're like
a reasonably small tribe. I think they're numbering of the thousands.
They don't have a central governing structure, and they are
fighty for a good reason and pretty good at it.
They fought in the French and Indian War against British
colonists because the British colonists were way worse than the French.
(45:40):
The French were like, oh, that's our territory, and they
were like there, but they weren't there. And I'm not
trying to be like the French were great colonizers, but
you know whatever, Like one side's Jigsaw from the movie
I won't watch and the other sides of the French.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
Wait, why won't you watch it?
Speaker 2 (45:54):
I don't like Gore stuff as much. Watch Oh I.
Speaker 3 (45:57):
Gotta edit oops aal Jigsaw, but just the jigsauce speeches.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
You okay, okay, yeah, okay. So if you do the
like cartoon Gore cut where it's like, oh.
Speaker 3 (46:09):
Oh no, it's literally just a little guy on a tricycle,
if you take it out, which actually is a really
it would be a really pleasant you know, seven to
twelve minutes. If I cut together all the tricycles saw someone.
Speaker 2 (46:23):
Has to This is how we'll do. Like you get
me on beckdel cast to talk about sol and it'll
be the like Magpie safe edit where I'm like not
afraid of horror. I just don't like the insights of bodies.
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (46:32):
I like this guy's message. I wonder what he because look,
say what you will about Jigsaw's methods. He really hates cops.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
Well that I actually shouldn't use this as the metaphor anymore.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
Oh no, it's fine.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
But one side. The British are just nightmare men, Like
I mean, George Washington is literally running around with teeth
he ripped out of people's faces in his mouth, you know,
m like North America is a horror movie. So that's
one side. And then the French are like the French,
and I don't know, they're probably horrible. I haven't read
as much about French colonization, but most Indigenous people in
(47:05):
the French and Indian War, as the name of the
war suggests, sided with the French. The British unfortunately won
that war in seventeen sixty three, and they got a
bunch of new territory from the Native people because the
French were like, oh, yeah, Ohio is ours, Sure you
can have that, even though they didn't live there. In
Indigenous people did and said the British were like, great,
(47:25):
that's ours now. But people were like, no, we don't
want that. We're going to fight and we're going to
call it Pontiac's War because of this guy named Pontiac,
like of the car. Yeah. I was thinking about this
today because I was walking past a Cherokee, like a
jeep Cherokee, and I'm just like, I mean, this is
so obvious. You can get those epiphanies where it's like
(47:46):
something that's obvious and you already know it, but it
hits you really hard anyway. Yeah, that's how I was
feeling today, thinking about Pontiac's war and just being like
walking past a Cherokee car and just like, man, we're.
Speaker 3 (47:58):
Just I'm embarrassed. I didn't know what Pontiac, like, what
that term referenced at all.
Speaker 2 (48:03):
Yeah. No, he was a chief of the Ottawa people,
and he was like, you know, it's like awkward to say,
like lead the rebellion, but he in many ways did.
It was actually him and another guy whose name escapes
me off the top of my head, because actually it
was funny. Is like I think in general, if you
want to be the chrismatic leader of one of these things,
it's less about being the good general and it's more
about getting the disparate groups of people to come together.
(48:25):
Like my favorite stories always are when desparate groups of
people who kind of don't even like each other come
together to fight the big bad.
Speaker 1 (48:31):
Everyone's favorite movie is a version of that.
Speaker 2 (48:33):
Yeah, yeah exactly, And that's what's going to happen, and
we're going to talk about it and non Jelena is
going to get to go into battle naked and covered
in paint on Wednesday.
Speaker 1 (48:45):
I cannot wait to see her in battle.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
You got anything you want to plug here at the end,
for example, you were just talking about a different podcast
where you talk about movies.
Speaker 3 (48:55):
Yes, Oh, look there's this podcast.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
It's better after a decade.
Speaker 3 (48:58):
It's called the back Cast.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
Longer than the Confederacy. That's what you need to do.
Oh should This show has been about as long as
the Confie anyway, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (49:07):
All right, give it a few more years. Yes, we're
built to last, unlike the Confederacy. But you can listen
to the Bechtel Cast every single week. It's an intersexual
feminist podcast I co host with my dear friend Caitlin
Deronte mag Pie.
Speaker 1 (49:19):
You've been on many times. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (49:21):
And then also you can listen to We the End House,
which is a show I produce that is created and
hosted by the wonderful Theo Henderson, where he is covering
issues that affect the un housed from an unhoused perspective.
That's every other Tuesday on iHeart Radio.
Speaker 2 (49:38):
Fuck You. If you want to follow me, you can
by listening to this podcast or googling my name. I
don't know. You can do whatever you want and see
you all on Wednesday.
Speaker 4 (49:51):
Cool people who did cool Stuff is a production of
cool Zone Media. For more podcasts and cool Zone Media,
visit our website coolzonemedia dot com or check us out
up on I Heard Radio, app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you get your podcasts.
Speaker 3 (50:08):
M
Host
Margaret Killjoy
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