Part Two: Food Not Bombs, The Criminal Mutual Aid Conspiracy

In part two of this week's episode, Margaret continues her conversation with podcast host Andrew Ti about the long fight for our right to feed one another in public places.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, and welcome to Cool People, Did Cool Stuff or
c p W D C C AS by for short,
and by short I mean long because it takes at
least as long to say the acronym as does say
the title of the show. And one of my least
favorite things is people who try to correct me and
say that acronyms are only acronyms when they are pronounceable

(00:21):
as words. So I'm Mark kill j your host and
with me. Today is the one and only Andrew T.
Andrew Good just gave dog two kills. Yeah, everything's gone
great on this day. That is definitely a different day
from last time, because we definitely don't just record both
episodes back to back most of the time. We've also

(00:45):
got our producer, Sophie. How are you doing? Sophie? Still
doing well? Was doing well all those days ago when
we report recorded part one? Still well now? Yeah. The
days just fly by between recording part one important by bye,
they do. Sometimes it just feels like I get up
and get a glass of water, yeah, and then that's it.

(01:09):
We also have our editor Ian who's not on the calm,
but later we'll be listening to everything we say, just
to twist our words around and make it sound like
we said are saying things that we're not saying. Like
I actually got the acronym correct at the beginning of
this episode and then um Ian switched it around to
be wrong. And our theme music was written by a
woman and you can check out the rest of her
music if you would like. So today we're talking about

(01:31):
food up bombs, and we're talking abou mutual aid. And
if you didn't listen to the first half of this episode,
you are missing out on us pontificating about Catholic theology
for a moment, and also about why were or at
least why I'm not excited about people dressing up as
homeless people. Yeah, I mean, it's just so like a
classic of the genre. But yeah, you know, so the

(01:54):
street theater kind of always has that element to it,
I guess, just like, yeah, yeah, it's not a it's
not a high art form, and that is both its
advantage and disadvantage, both artistically and politically. Exactly. Yeah, So,
where we last left our heroes, they're feeding people every week.
They're collecting donations from all over the city and delivering

(02:16):
free groceries everywhere because they think that people might need
free groceries, and then they're taking what's left over and
making a ton of free food and feeding people in
the park. And this is just a a good thing
to do. No notes, the city is less convinced that
it's a good thing to do, or at least they
don't like the other stuff that these same activists are doing,
um like sticking their noses into every protest and action

(02:36):
that they possibly can, writing every good fight that they
come across. So so Keith mckenry, one of the founders
of food nut Bombs, the main person who's written all
this history. He who's actually really cool most of the time. Um,
he doesn't like that he's getting harassed by the city,
Like he's getting harassed a lot by the city. Apparently
is being kind of threatened by the city. Don't totally
know what that. I don't know exactly. So he fucks off.

(02:59):
He sucked off to San Francisco, and Food Up Bombs
Boston keeps going without him. In seven he starts Food
up Bombs San Francisco, and not long after, some people
in Long Beach, which I don't know if you all
knew this, but Long Beach is not actually the name
of a beach in l A. It turns out apparently
it's its own city. M yeah, yeah, Andrew, did you

(03:22):
know that Los Angeles resident? Uh? I think, I mean,
I assume it is also a beach though, right, I
don't know is Los Angeles an actual city or is
it just a Hollywood fabrication? So uh yeah, definitely both.
Is A is a ridiculous city as far as that goes? Yeah,

(03:45):
completely agree? Okay, just does cool Zone media have an
official stance on whether or not it's chill for me
to spread conspiracy theories like l A is a real
place and not just a Hollywood fabrication, because that's the
conspiracy for Los Angeles is a real place with stage
wink at the audience that they can't see if I'm
describing it, you can't see ship. Yeah all right. So

(04:08):
some people in Long Beach, legally distinct from Los Angeles
started food not bombs, and they were nervous about stealing
the name food nut bombs, so they started calling it
bread knot bombs. But then they got in touch with
food nat bombs and tun bombs, like, oh my god,
we don't care that rules used food not bombs. Um,
so they become Food Nut Bombs, and food Nut Bombs

(04:30):
writes up a little how to Get Started zine and
they start passing it around. There's thirty chapters. They had
a conference and decided on the three basic principles that
I mentioned at the beginning of Monday's episode, free veggy
based food, autonomous groups, non violence, and then they put
out the first edition of a book called food Nut
Bombs that explains the whole thing very direct titlers. I

(04:52):
appreciate a good direct title. So the group explodes in
popularity after this. Two years later, people attended international gathering
in San Francisco and the representing the US, Canada, Mexico,
and various countries in Europe. And okay, my my theory
is that the only downside of the popularity Food Not

(05:13):
Bombs is that we had to go through as activists
the whole generation of slogans with names that are like
bikes not bombs, home's not jails, food not lawn, solidarity
not charity, the something not something. I really appreciate that
y'alls is um something and something like. I feel like
that's a really positive development. Um Yeah, I wasn't around

(05:35):
for the genesis of it. I have no idea how
any of that care to be. But yeah, that is
actually a good point. Yeah, I we were we were
at a protest recently, and I because I hadn't been
involved in the early days of it when it was
mostly protest support. UM for Solidarity snacks mentioned last episode,

(05:56):
which people can financially support, Yes, we need or the
fund is getting we we only have a couple more
Saturdays left unless we get more funds, which hopefully will
come in. Um. But I didn't realize that the like
cart that my friend used initially to start the whole
thing is like it was like well known amongst people.

(06:20):
Really people were like, oh, it's the car, we know you.
It's the car. That's pretty amazing. Yeah. Um so yeah,
something and something that is my that is my endorsement society.
It's a new a new wrinkle on the on the format.
We've progressed past the need for things not the other
thing that said, all of those things that I named

(06:44):
like homes not jail's homes, that jail's rules, and I
actually almost did a whole thing about them, but I
ran out of time. They're like people who well they
do kind of what they say. They they open up squads.
The organizations are great, it's often just the like just
another pass at the copy usually yeah, yeah, totally, exactly. Yeah,

(07:07):
that's the main issue. And so that's why I would
like to propose a new something and something food and
bombs for people who want to kill the Tsar of Russia.
I mean, if you want to kill the Tsar of Russia,
it has been proven empirically through trial and air, a
lot of air, the most effective way to kill Tazar

(07:28):
of Russia is with bombs. So just saying putting that
out there, please don't actually do that and then say
that I had anything to do with it, Okay, shut yeah,
totally no fucking snitches and food and bombs, all right,
So food not bombs. It's getting super popular with people

(07:49):
who like to eat food. But there are people who
hate fun and freedom and people having nice things like
food who are waiting in the wings. And these people,
of course, best known as the government and the cops.
This conflict first arises in a serious way in in
San Francisco. You've got this mayor. He's super progressive. His

(08:10):
name's Art Agnos. He ran on how environmental and feminist
and pro union and ship he was, Ah spoiler. Okay,
So he comes in during an intense period of gentrification
of San Francisco and it's starting to change it into
the yuppie hell hole we all know and love today.
He wants to solve the homelessness crisis, and he starts

(08:32):
off with some decent ideas about how to solve the
homelessness crisis. M He wants to build low income housing,
which of course always gets complicated, but it's not inherently wrong. Um.
He also makes sleeping bands, and then he revives a
nineteenth century law against lying down in public place with
camping gear. Because you know that the government is doing
something good when they find a law that has not

(08:53):
been enforced in a hundred years. Yeah, so you should
look at the laws, the other laws from that year
and just see what else totally like, if this is
who you're in company with, yeah, it can't be. These
were not good legislators at the time. Yeah. Like, and

(09:14):
here's the law against the following racial oh wait yeah yeah,
oh yeah, but that's not for a couple of years. Yeah. No,
that's the sweet spot, that is the hey day of that. Yeah.
I think San Francisco is like it started being all
the like, um, like, Chinese folks don't come here in
the late nineteenth century, I think, Yeah, and hooray America

(09:36):
has a really cool history. Yeah, and present that's wild
the other yeah go ahead, Oh no, they're just just
recapping for my brain, all right. Yeah. The laws back, Yeah,
the laws back, and he starts sending out cops to
sweep parks full of homeless folks. Fuck art Agnos. Uh,

(09:58):
he's not progressive, he claims it, and and everyone I
think starts seeing him as basically like, oh, he's the
classic democrat. He it's a bait and switch. He gets
elected by progressives because of the elector the people who
vote a manner progressives, and then he serves neoliberalism instead.
Um and fount Bombs shows up on the scene around
the time same time as art Agnos and food nut Bombs.

(10:21):
At the beginning, they weren't even trying to be controversial.
They actually applied for a permit and did all of
the paperwork and all that stuff. But the local business
owners were like, no, you can't have homeless people eating
food in public. Um as if there's some other place
for people who don't have houses to eat food uh,
so they pressure the city, the city denies the permit,

(10:41):
and food nut Bombs rolls over and accepts it and
ends as an organization. And wait, no, they say fuck it,
and they feed people food anyway, And they start to
get arrested for it, like a lot, Like in the
first few months, there's almost a hundred arrests. It becomes
an assembly line. Someone lines up to get a free meal.

(11:05):
Someone scoops food onto the plate of the person who's
there for a free meal, and the cops arrests the
person who serves the food. So the next server steps
up and feeds the next person in line and gets arrested.
And and they just do this right because they're not
afraid of civilis obedience. There. They do what's right, not
what's safe. You know. Yeah, it's also truly like you know, obviously,

(11:28):
if you're fucking cop, you are the worst human being.
But like it's hard to have it more like in
your face, what a fun discussing piece of ship you
are that day, I know. Yeah. And so the fight
is about food, I guess kind of, but not really.
It's it's about more than that. It's about who controls
public space. Are the parks controlled by the government or

(11:51):
are they controlled by the people who make use of
the park. And the government, of course, tends to believe
that they're the ones who get to control the park,
but I would argue, if you've ever been to a park,
you know that that's not the case. The politics of
a park are remapped daily by the people who are there.
Like there might not be a sign up that says
don't skateboard on the basketball court, but like the basketball
court most of the time is for basketball players and

(12:12):
who have their own structures about who decides which courts
are being used, and like, you know, it's it's I mean,
parts are are beautiful because they are these informal organizational
spots that happen daily all over the world. Um, I
don't know, it's like one thing I miss about living
in cities and yeah, or just like like the like
the yeah, the politics of any like public place are

(12:36):
like so interesting. Yeah, it's just like you can make
all the rules you want, but those aren't the rules,
yeah totally. And you know, and people who have no
private space to return to, they're going to use public space,
which makes sense, right, And I've never had to deal
with homelessness. I used to be a traveling activist, but

(12:57):
that was by by choice is very structurally different. But
I remember at this one time I was taking a
nap in a van and a parking lot and it
was really hot, so I opened the doors and and
I was just thinking about how like I could now
get in trouble. It would be perfectly legal for me
to park my van and get out of it and
leave my van in this public space, but now that
I'm sleeping in it, it's sketchy. But even more than that,

(13:18):
it seems so weird to me that if I didn't
have a car, I can't just set my stuff down
in this public space that is meant for holding stuff, right,
is a public spaceman for people to leave their car
and walk away. And it just sort of like hits
me the magic of a car used in a certain way. Yeah,

(13:39):
And then even if you have a car, if you
don't have a private space to then take it home
too later, you're not usually not allowed to park it anywhere. Um,
and it I don't know whatever. This isn't news to
anyone probably that there's a lot of laws against homelessness
that I wish I had the quote in front of me,
but I don't. There's that quote about the law and
it's it's it's awesome equality outlaws before and the rich

(14:05):
from like pissing, Yeah, um law the laws like perfectly fair,
like like no one is permitted to sleep under the
bridge or something, Yeah exactly. Um. And and l A specifically,
they've they've come out with all these like where they
pretend like it's not trying to do that type laws

(14:28):
where they're like like recently l A City council approved
an ordinance where it's like bike repair on the street
is now illegal, and and then they were like, well,
what do you mean this has not this has nothing
to do with you know, the un housed communities. Uh.
And and you know anybody with that that reads it

(14:48):
is like just be honest, Yeah, what are you? What
do you what do you mean? And uh, you know,
there's there's so many different things. It's like putting bolder
or is under freeway under passes and things like that.
They're like, oh no, it's to prevent and they make
up some lights like yeah, I saw a bat there

(15:10):
once and I don't want people to get rabies. So
that's why there's a Boulder. It's like, just treat people
with dignity, don't be so bastards. We'll just be gloves
off and be like we want our clean city. Actually,
don't do that either. Don't do That's always like like,
oh I I prefer the open fascists like like sort

(15:34):
of it's glib, but yeah, don't tempt them. Yeah, I know,
I'm not looking forward to that stage. It's like always
like like, oh, I just prefer what people are saying,
what they really believe. It's like I promise you don't
totally yeah, I know. I know. We were talking about
like democrats that run with these liberal policies and it's like, oh, no,

(15:57):
you're a Republican and like that sucks. But but having
like the actual fascists run on fat like yeah, it's
like like the like I prefer it at least I
know where I stand. It's like knowledge of where you
stand is like such a valueless thing. And also like right,

(16:21):
like when everyone had to be quiet about slightly more
quiet about the racism and ship, I think it made
fewer young racists because if you can't pass it on
is this continent, racism is a continuion. So like truly,
it is like like that that is like the thing
it's like for all like the you know, subconscious or

(16:43):
or like quiet racism, Like it truly is better. It
is just better better society where at least they have
to experience some sort of shame or second guessing themselves. Um,
I'm not saying it's good, but it's better than the alternative.
It's certainly use that totally Okay. So yeah, so all

(17:06):
these people are getting arrested because the city is real
clear how they want to control space. They're like, we
control the parks. There's actually all these quotes from different
city council people that are like or you know, from
the city government that's like and cops that are like,
we control these parks, not these homeless people in these
anarchists or like they're making a political statement. I mean
it's like, yeah, of course, feeding people in a society

(17:27):
where there's people going hungry and dying in the streets
as a political statement like this shouldn't be happening is
a political statement because the current political system isn't working. Um.
Also like pathetic that that is the like, yeah, you're
scared of political statements? Yeah, yeah, totally, So the civil
disobedience works, and after a few months, the city sits

(17:48):
down to negotiate with them and gives them a temporary permit.
They have to like move a couple blocks over to
like get out of Um I think they're in Golden
Gate Park at this point. They have to go a
few blocks away, so they're like less public eye. But
they drop all the charges against all the orestes and
and things are a little better. But these radical homeless people.

(18:09):
The next year they set up an encampment outside of
city Hall and they have the coolest slogan ever for
this exact thing, which is, we're tired, we're hungry, we
don't like the government. Um, just say what you fucking mean.
I want our side to say what they fucking mean.
You know, that's significantly better. Yeah, well, the problem is

(18:29):
most of our side quote unquote our side, uh doesn't
mean that. That's true. Yep, that's that's the dark side
of things. Uh. Well, fudnut Bombs decides to go support
that just to avoid lingering on that dark thought. Turn
up Bombs. They decided to go support this, this homeless

(18:49):
lead initiative. And I believe at this point a decent
nu chunk of the Food Up Bombs organizers are homeless
folks themselves. I'm not entirely certain about how all that works,
but it's yeah, more complicated than people might initially think. Um,
And they set up a twenty four hour super kitchen
to feed the protest camp. And this and the fact
that some of the organizers non violently occupy the mayor's office,

(19:11):
gets the whole encampment swept by the ostensibly progressive mayor
and Funup Bombs permit is revoked, and so Found up
Bombs is like, all right, fuck it, And they go
back to the park no longer a couple of blocks away,
and they just, um, they're not gonna be swept out
from public eye, and they're just gonna feed people. And
over the next seven years, this this fight goes on
for seven years, over two administrations. Over a thousand activists

(19:37):
get sighted and or arrested for feeding people in the park.
Nuns and priests joined them. At one point, my favorite
was that lawyers of the National Lawyers Guild showed up.
Shout out to the National Lawyers Guild, They're great. They
decided to serve food and get arrested. The cops are like,
now we're good. I just don't arrest the National Lawyers

(19:57):
Guild because that's who there sleep, right of. I mean
they used to be. I I was at the UM
just for a part of it. I wasn't able to
be around for like the most violent parts of the
uh disgusting hopefully soon to be gone. City Council member

(20:19):
Mitchell Ferrell ordered the LAPD to sweep Echo Park like
um here and truly, I mean it was one of
those like right like this this felt like a new thing.
I'm not super experienced with stuff, but like the l
A p D like first of all, like you know,

(20:39):
performing acts of violence now with like everything recorded, but
like actively going after journalists and the like the green
hat National folks, targeting them in some truly fascist ship
and then setting up a uh literal concentration camp at

(20:59):
Echo Park. They fence it off and you could not
You didn't. You weren't free to leave or enter. They're
just going to concentrate all the people into one place
so that they can be handled. It was concentration, Yeah,
it was, it was. It was you know, it was
so fucking disgusting. Yeah, it's unforgettable. Major media wouldn't even

(21:22):
like really cover it because their cowards. But it's like
it was being live streamed on Twitter and you're seeing
it and you're like, yeah, this this is a concentration
camp in the middle of Los Angeles being run by
our by the l A p d by and by
actual fascist MITCHO Ferrell. Yeah, if you're listening to this

(21:44):
and you're an l A voter and there's or if
you're not, actually there's any way to to contribute to
the Ugo Soto Martinez campaign in any way to unsee
open fascist MITCHO Ferrell. Please do that please. One of
the things that I keep running when I was researching this.
At one point I got really frustrated about halfway through
writing all this, where I was like, it's also quaint.

(22:07):
I know that they were fighting for really hard things
and it was really hard, but I'm just like, oh
my god, Like, just even what you're saying about, you know,
the National Lawyers Guild actually gets arrested now right in
the exact same situation, and just like, yeah, I'm really
not trying to downplay the incredible amount of work that
Punat bombs well, that still does and does now in

(22:28):
this new context. So I'm really not trying to knock it, um,
but it is it's it's hard to see how far
we've not come in terms of the move towards it. Yeah,
I mean I think it. It is also like like
probably the at least some version of this activism. The
stuff that I felt like I saw a lot in

(22:48):
the nineties was a lot of people insulated by their
whiteness from some of the worst things. And but that
is like part of you know, it goes both ways too,
because it is like of civil disobedience is like civil
disobedience only works if you're oppressors have any kind of conscience,
and like, yeah, it's just like cops have more of

(23:10):
a conscience for like white teens than you know, your
average on house person, your average black person, etcetera. Like
so there is some version of that, but then that
becomes like sort of this white savior re vibe that
can go the wrong way. It could turn into people
encouraging street theater where you dressed up like the homeless
because you don't think about what that means. Um, I

(23:34):
don't know, sorry, I'm just like on that little tangent.
It's like scary. Now think that's to me, Like like
during the George Floyd uprising, it was just like, oh,
the l a p D is like beating middle class
white women in broad daylight now, which feels like an escalation, Like,

(23:55):
you know, at least typically under they in the past,
it feels like they would at least wait till sun
down to do that. They were like actively kettling people
at like on on a on a Tuesday at like
one pm and then like and then like beating them
on camera. Yeah. It was like pretty remarkable, honestly. Yeah.

(24:16):
And you know what else is remarkable? Oh my god, Margaret,
I was like, are you going to do that? Because
it's that time. The concept of dogs dogs And oh,
we have a new advertiser that I'm very excited about
that we'll be running, and it would actually be the
first host voiced ad that we'll be running on this network.

(24:37):
And that is the concept of shut the funk up,
Shut the fuck up. Yeah, shut the funk up, don't
talk to cops. That is the concept. Oh smart, Yeah, No, sorry,
I wasn't on you all to shut the funk up
saying that when you get arrested, shut the funk up.
Oh there's that too, But some of y'all do need

(24:57):
to also shut the funk up. Here's some ads it Hi,
Margaret Killjoy here boy, the world sure is a mess
right now? Huh. Seems like every day there are more
and more reasons to get out into this recent protest.
That's why when I get arrested, there's only one strategy.
I trust, I shut the funk up. I say, I
would like to remain silent, I would like to talk

(25:19):
to my lawyer, and then I shut the funk up.
In the United States of America, it's constitutionally protected and
recommended by the National Lawyers Guild. That's s h U
t t h E f U c k u P.
Once again, that's s h U T th h E
f U c k u P. Because you can't talk

(25:40):
yourself out of custody, but you can talk yourself into
a conviction. Providing identification to law enforcement required in some
states and situations, giving name an addressed expedient. In most circumstances,
never discuss the events leading to arrest with anyone except
your lawyer, doctor, or therapist. Posting pictures of protests and
actions on social media may lead to complications if you
have already talked to cops or experienced confuse and about
talking to cops, call your attorney immediately, as these maybe

(26:02):
signs of more serious legal problems. The concept of not
talking to cops does not provide legal advice, and the
foregoing statements are for informational purposes only if you have
specific legal questions. Consultant attorney and we are back, um,
and we are thinking about the escalation. And also yeah,
how like people who actually are are more heavily marginalized

(26:25):
by society have been dealing with this ship and it
wasn't as like quaint even back you know. So that
is a really good point. I mean it's it's tough. Yeah,
it just goes always like it's like, yes, they're absolutely
doing you know, a good thing on the balance, and
like certainly there are the allies, but yeah, it's just

(26:47):
it is weird, like the the using essentially you're on
privilege to advance goals, but sort of still you have
that privilege and you can not extend that privilege, which
is always the precarious thing too. Yeah, and I mean
I think that that has a lot to do with
like where you're taking direction from right, Like, um, you know,

(27:08):
if I'm going to be protesting in a context in
which I'm attempting to use my white privilege, uh, it
usually ideally would be in the context of like listening
to um, you know, the direction and the overall strategy
that is being proposed by the the group that I'm
attempting to be in solidary with, you know, UM, and

(27:30):
which is of course also really complicated because people are,
like people of color or not, the monoliths even among
individual you know, like identities, and so you know, you
people choosing who they listen to. It. Well, this is
why I don't run a politics podcasts. This ship gets messy.
I just talk about history. No exactly. I mean I
think that's like it's both messy and like ugly and

(27:53):
and you know, the reality is there is no like right, Yeah,
I think that that. And that's one of the things
I love about movements that are so um like like
diverse in terms of ideologies, in terms of ideas, in
terms of strategies tactics, Like when we can work to
coordinate different strategies and tactics together and different people coming

(28:14):
from different positions, I feel like that's where we are
our strongest personally. UM, so the next mayor San Francisco,
speaking of people getting a little more um glove off.
The next pair of San Francisco was the chief of
police who orchestrated the crackdown on fodnut pomps. All right,
and a runs an anti homeless camp on he runs

(28:37):
onto anti homeless platform and things just heat up for
food nut bombs. But of course also everywhere in the
city with this guy. And over the course of the fight,
the city removes all the benches from the park, so
the folks have to eat sitting on the ground, which
didn't stop anyone from eating food. You'll be shocked to know.
Then they put up signs everywhere that said serving food
without a permit is a crime. Um, these were probably

(28:58):
roughly as effective escape warding is a crime science. Yeah,
And and it's like it really is like, what, like
what society are you in? You know that that that
is your like priority. Let's say that means taxpayers spend
money on this. It's like, is this really who you
fucking are? It? Like it's gross to think about, like

(29:24):
or to be that person. And the other thing they
spent taxpayer money on was to remove the fountain from
the park. Because I guess that would you know, all right,
well they're gonna eat, they better not be somewhere with
like pretty things. They better not enjoy it, you know,
have access to a water feature anyway. Um, So food
not Bomb starts getting it comes up with different tactics

(29:46):
to deal with all this harassment. Right, people get sick
of people of the cops stealing their food, so they
start having decoy food buckets where they put a third
of the food in the bucket and they go up
and they set up, and the cops steal the bucket
and then they're like, oh, shut you stole our food,
and the cops leaves. So then they bring out the
next third of a bucket and they serve some people,
and then the cops steal the food, and then they

(30:07):
bring out a final third in a third bucket, and
the flyer that they distribute all over the world being
like here's how to deal with it if the cops
are stealing your food is like cops are too embarrassed
to come back the third time to steal the food.
And I don't know whether it's they're too embarrassed that
they got like looney Tunes tricked, or if they're just

(30:27):
embarrassed about the fact that it really hits home about
the fact that they are like just stealing food. That's
what their job is, is steal food from the mouths
of hungry people. And Keith mckennry, the founder guy that
you know I have the most information about, he was
arrested ninety four times between which is more than once

(30:48):
a month for seven years straight. As he puts it,
he was framed up on three other felonies during that time.
It was facing twenty five years in prison. UM. I
have no counter argument to this. And during that same
time period, for example, the FBI had just covered up
the car bombing of two environmentalists, Judy Barry and Darryl Churney,
and they the FEDS might have even done the car bombing,

(31:09):
but the thing that's been proven in court is that
they at least covered it up, right. So this is
the so here I am being like ha ha at
different times, like, actually, no people are getting car bombed
by the FEDS. Um. Probably, but yeah, yeah, I mean
it's it's just like it probably is. I mean they
are the same people. They're worse than they have the

(31:30):
internet now, but like they're the same people that have
always been doing this ship. So yeah, it is different.
There was more innocent and less innocent. Yeah, you know,
in different ways different yea, yeah, yeah, it's just different,
is honestly the Yeah. Yeah, they're not any less murderous

(31:50):
in service of right, you know, of their their little society. Yeah,
just their tactics changed in different situations. Yeah. He spends
a total of Keith mckennry spends a total of five
hundred days in jail during this seven year time just
with all of these minor arrests for serving food. Um,
and the harassment started gaining so bad that Amnesty International

(32:13):
was wrote a letter to San Francisco saying that they
were considering designating food up bombs activists as prisoners of conscience,
basically saying like, if you, if you don't start harassing
people based on their political beliefs, that we're going to
adopt them as prisoners of conscious, you will be breaking
international law and we will fight for their unconditional release.
And eventually, two mayors later, food nut bombs just kind

(32:36):
of wins by default because the city stops at war
against them and they keep serving food. And thirty years
after all this stuff they're still serving food, and they
still serve food all over the world. The current best
guests there's no official registry of food up bombs. The
best guess is that there's around five hundred cities in
the US with chapters and about five more cities around

(32:56):
the world, and fun bombs of active US have been
spied on by the FEDS and arrested by cops time
and time again. Literally, while I was researching this, I
messaged Sophia since I figured this out. I ran across
a memo from the FBI about how they were spying
on Denver Food Not Bombs in two thousand four, which
is um when I was in Denver coun bombs, and

(33:19):
it stuck out to me because they're describing how they
were trying to get information out of my neighbors, like
our house ran one day of cooking, and different houses
across the city ran different days of it, and some
punks like some it's like punks did it some days,
students did it other days, whatever, and and so. The
the document points out that while they arrested eight activists

(33:41):
at the Food Not Bombs house, none of them nor
any of the other people at the residents that the
FBI was trying to question gave any information to the investigation,
which rules and is what how you all should handle
interactions with the federal police. You tell them that you
have representation and that UM ask for their card and
does the only information you give them. You don't lie
to them and you don't tell them anything anyway. So

(34:07):
after the fall of the Soviet Union, let's just jump
gears really quick, run up. Bombs springs up all over
Russia and the former Communist block Poland, Ukraine, Serbia, Croatia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria,
and Russia all have or had chapters, and the stakes
there are a bit higher than they've been for a
lot of the U S chapters. In November two thousand five,

(34:30):
a food nut bombser in St. Petersburg Team or cache Vera,
was hanging out at a cafe a few hours after
serving food in the park. A crew of bone heads,
which are Nazi skinheads, swarmed him, chanting and this will
be a familiar chance to Americans that they were chanting
anti Antifa Nazis restrained teamer while another another Nazi who

(34:51):
was only fourteen years old, stabbed him to death five
times in the neck and teamer was it was an
anarchist and a philosophy student. He was twenty is old
and he played in a punk band called Sandinista. Two
years later, Bone had swarmed food not bombs in St.
Petersburg again, and if I'm reading the various articles correctly,
they swarmed the actual feeding itself. This time they attacked

(35:13):
and another food nut bombs are Ivan yelling. He survives,
but he got stabbed twenty times for serving food in
the park. And while he was recovering in the hospital,
dozens of his friends showed up to donate blood at
the hospital. Some came from as far away as Moscow,
which is like an eight hour train ride. Basically people
coming in solidarity too to offer their blood. I'm sure
they had plenty of blood. I hope that people showed

(35:34):
up then gave blood to other people in the hospital,
which is an interesting escalation of mutual aid. And then
on the flourth of February two thousand seven, Nazis went
for the ultimate irony and they bombed the food nut bombs.
No one gets killed, Uh, they just want to like
say that up front so there's less tension around that
they hid a bomb in the flower stall, and it's

(35:58):
I hate to laugh at this. It's to go off
at the time of the feeding, but the jokes on
the Nazis because feeding was run by punks and so
they were late. So the bomb goes off before anyone arrives,
and no one was hurt. And they've had people as
usual on the day that Nazis tried to bomb them.
I said at the very beginning where I was like,

(36:19):
in this time, no one gets killed by Nazis, and
actually one person gets killed by And I didn't. I didn't.
I should have probably known where I was going. I was.
I was more chuckling at the you know, we're anti
anti five Yeah, yeah, you're just fascist. It's fine, yeah,
your regulars Yeah yeah, no, I no, totally. Um yeah.

(36:42):
And I remember when this happened. It hit us all
kind of hard, and it was like kind of sobering, right, um,
because we would get harassed for serving food nut bombs
and like a couple of times I've served food, not bombs,
are eating it with like riot police all around and
helicopters overhead and all that ship. But fucking Russia, they're
getting bombed for it. And and the attacks were focused.

(37:02):
It's the same focus in the U. S. It's it's
about who controls spaces. Right in the US, it is
the government is like, we control the parks. And in
Russia at the time, the Nazis were like, no, we
control the parks, and so it was they were attacking
the the St. Petersburg d i y leftist n anarchist
punk scene which organized against the fascists under the name Antifa,

(37:23):
and so the regular are not fans of Antifa, and
so you know, no, it's but it's just like it's
like again, if you're murdering people for like handing out food,
it's it's I mean, but that's like such a like

(37:43):
fascist through line, and it's just like and that is
a little you know, we talked, I talked about it.
It's like me not understanding, you know. I was sort
of like, I guess I was still also just like
not not not clear, but like when I was talking
about just the small amount of mutual aid stuff I've
been doing over the last couple of years, and like

(38:04):
the like relative paranoia I feel that you know, these
these you know of patriots like have and I think
that the thing that is it's like because in my
in my mind, it's like, what are they gonna do
kill us for handing out you know, granola bars? And
the answer is yes, depends on how far things but yeah, yeah,

(38:25):
but the answer is yes. Like so so that's like
hard to internalize. And I think that is. It's like
because often you like come to this sort of thing
with like the energy of this is like a social thing,
or at least it's part of it, and it's like
very hard to not you know, to realize that like yes,

(38:49):
like we are like doing something, but it's like we're
actually there is an element of parel to this that
is hard to like kind of like really realized sometimes. Right,
the ship is like real and like even though it
shouldn't be. It's literally just handing out fucking snacks and
like hand sanity and almost every single food not bombs

(39:12):
feeding that happens worldwide is pleasant with good mediocre to
good food depending on the cooks, and a good environment
and safe, you know and like and I definitely wouldn't
discourage people. You know, um, if you're in Moscow right now,
it's a lot more complicated, right um, but you know,

(39:35):
and and things will get more complicated here as things happen.
But but that's going to be true. It's yeah, but
it is also like yeah, like elements of like there's
always something you can do. M So it's like, you know,

(39:55):
if you get to the point where it feels perilous
to be there and person, there's things you can do,
and it feels perilous to like be with a collective
group of people cooking or organizing or whatever, there's things
you can do. Yeah, something, there's always more. You can
always be doing more than you've been doing, and like,

(40:16):
and it can always be something that plays to your strength,
and it doesn't have to be something that is like
you can think about what you are willing to risk
and then think about how you can go about meeting
your own needs and still engage, you know, and like
just being the person to call like food co ops
or big chain organic stores or regular stores and be like, hey,

(40:37):
I'm working with you know food nut bombs or if
if they're burned on that make up some other I
don't know legality what I'm saying, um, find ways to
get donations of food and like I think, I think, yeah,
you probably can just not name the yeah, yeah, place,
I suppose but yeah, yeah, yeah, there's always something. I
mean I think that I was doing UM. Also during

(40:58):
the George Floyd uprising, was like trying to help out
with UM just listening to the police scanner, which was
also illuminating in that I was like, oh, these people
are both like it was whild listening to cops be
legitimately sound afraid. I mean, they're fucking you know, fascist cowards,
but it really was. I was like, Oh, you're scared

(41:20):
of like I know who's in that crowd, Like you're
looking scared of them. You feel towards like you have guns,
you're the violent one. And that's I mean because fascism
is the cowards ideology, Like it's that's why they only
attack when they're in big groups. That's why, you know,
like yeah, um, and when there's a fair fight, they

(41:42):
backed down. It seems like not universally, but it um
and a lot of what I mean not even not
even a fair fight. Yeah, but I mean you see
it like in Portland and like all like if you
just like can stand up and be organized, the fucking
proud boy type folks just like they're too stupid and
weak and scared, and I mean it is the difference

(42:05):
in the ideologies. It's like they don't have each other's backs.
So so the reason they need like the swarm is
because it's they're they're so brittle, because they are so cowardly. Yeah, yeah,
I mean it's it's literally just I'm afraid of the other.
That is the it seems to me, is the core
of fascism, you know. And yeah, so speaking of people

(42:27):
standing up to fascism, this isn't an ad break. This
is just mere talking more about some of these Russian
food numbers. But it could be dogs stand up the fascists.
Some of them, some of them, I don't know. Okay,
that's a hard one. Favorite famously a bunch of them
love fascists. Yeah, okay, um, well probably a lot of

(42:48):
a lot of our most famous dogs are pro fascism,
you know. Alright, alright, fine, regrettably, I'm just saying, yeah, no,
no more dogs. More dogs are cops and are not coughs.
More dogs are not cops, but more famous dogs are cops. Yeah,
but there's riot dogs all over Greece and various countries

(43:11):
in South America and Central America. Who who hate cops?
All right? Well then here's some unrelated advertisements. Because we
live in a capitalistic hell world. Yes, and we are
back and we are talking about unat bombs in Russia

(43:31):
and Fudna bombs continues in Russia, I believe to this day.
During the invasion, well at the beginning of the current
invasion of the Russian invasion of Ukraine Moscow, Funat Bombs
put out a hasty translation of a statement which is
in order to keep an increase the benefits in their hands.

(43:51):
The government declares wars who will collect their intestines with
their hands, who will have their arms and legs torn
off by explosions, whose families will bury their children. Of course,
all of this does not apply to the ruling minority.
We must resist the militaristic regime and the war it
is waging with all of our might. Spread information among
your comrades, fight as best you can and uh. And
then they've been doing that. The A bunch of food

(44:13):
nut bombs activists were arrested in February and anti war demonstration.
You can see the video. It's literally just some people
walking down the street with a banner and cops grabbing
them off the street and arresting them. And then in
March at a Food Not Bombs feeding unknown assailants. They
might have been cops, they might have been just piece
of ship. Warmongers, kidnapped four people out of Food nat Bombs,

(44:34):
threw them into a car, drove them out in the forest,
said they were going to make them dig their own graves,
dropped them off one by one and beat the ship
out of them with police batons and seriously wounded several
of them. I believe all of them, but I'm not sure. Um.
Belarus Food Not Bombs has been going since two thousands six,
but they had to suspend operations in January two because
of the repression there of the anarchist movement because Belarus

(44:58):
is boot looking for Putin and end that things have
been going real hard for them there. Um, But that
was a terrible bummer note for me to end this
part about Food nat Bombs on There's actually one more
story that's related to mutual Aid than I want to say.
But if you have a way to quickly turn this
around on a positive note about Food not Bombs, I'm
I'm looking at how I wrote the script and I'm

(45:18):
not proud. Well, I mean, I think the thing that
is like it's the scary part, but it is the
like real part, which is like again, I came to
mutual aid mainly because you know, the world, but also
like it was like honestly just for my own mental health,
like such a like important thing. It wind up being

(45:41):
to like do something and it's like there's a social
element to it, but like not that it's good that
this is this is a political action that is like
violently repressed by literal fascists. But I think it's the
extent that there's a silver lining for like an American
audience is like this is like you are part of

(46:04):
something actually powerful when you do things like this. Um
that Again, it's it's that like you know, you look
around and like for me, I'm like, god, everyone see
here seems really fucking paranoid, and it's like they're not,
but they're not bad. You know. It's still like like
at least there's that power there of realizing that you

(46:26):
are like really doing something. Um can be helpful, but yeah,
it's sucking hard obviously, Now that makes sense. I mean,
like we live in a society that tries to deny
us agency, right, that's like one of its main structural
ideas um and and here's just a a really good,

(46:46):
almost always very safe way to claim agency. And also this, uh,
the society we're living in right now is trying to
live in the society at large, but trunks of it
are trying to disappear people and more and more people
are trying are starting to fall through the cracks. And
it's not a coincidence from my point of view that
this is happening as other things in the world are

(47:08):
getting worse. And and here's a way that you can
help stop that. You know that there's that there's that
fucking poem about the you know, first they came for
and then they came for and like great, like give
people give stuff to people who are homeless, Like that's good.
That is part of that. That is part of stopping

(47:29):
that chain of events that does lead to you and
I you know, like, um, you know the other like
purely selfish way, if if you want to look at
it this way, it's like like we're talking about like
sort of like in vaguely like militaristic terms. But the
thing is it's like again, I am passed probably my

(47:51):
brick throwing days, but like why do you keep winking
when you say that though, Oh sorry anyway, Uh no,
I really am even even even like very funny though
carrying carrying a folding table. The other day, I was like, god, damn,

(48:16):
I'm like I just can't yeah like you. Here's why
not because I'm like, it's it's I'm just like you.
You don't want me. I'm not. I'm not best used
on brick throwing duty on either side of things. It's
just like not, it's not good for anyone. However, it
was a thing where I was like during like some
of the darkest and the like perpetual upcoming darkest moments,

(48:40):
like the darkest moments that come is that like these
motherfucker's who are like the paranoid people who are just
like you know, in my eyes, paranoid people who are
like handing out cranola bars, etcetera. Like when if and
when like shit really goes bad, like this is the network,
this is the thing that becomes a resistance or whatever

(49:03):
or like if not these people, then something like it
or something adjacent to it or like and you know
it's real because these people have been out on the
street doing ship spending their own like energy and money
and like time, Like if they were knarcs, it would
be you know, they deserve it because I think they

(49:24):
put in years this ship. So it's like, yeah, fine,
send me to jail. It's great. Yeah, there's this old
earth first thing where Earth firsts would be like, Okay,
once you figure out who the cop is in the group,
you don't you don't kick them out. You just have
them take all the notes. You just like make sure

(49:46):
that they pay for everything. I am not recommending this
as a strategy. I am not trying to opine about
how groups should deal with infiltration. I am merely relaying
a thing that has happened in the past. U No, truly,
because well but yeah, but it's it's like just the
element of like, you know, yeah, just again on a

(50:09):
purely selfish level, it was like, these are the folks
that I having demonstrated having their back, they're going to
have my back. Um, and and the people you meet,
I don't know. It's like, I mean, you know, if
that's another way to look at it, it's like you're
just building the structures that hopefully we will never need
in a real way, but what we already use them

(50:31):
in a real way. And I've always been about you know,
I think that this dichotomy between the self interest in
the community interest is a false dichotomy because being part
of a healthy community that takes care of people rules
for me as an individual, Like I love food not
bombs because I ate it us so much, and it
let me not have a job and just run around

(50:52):
and hop freight trains badly and mostly failed at that
and hitchhike around and like live the life I wanted
to lead in my twenties, right, and and also, yeah,
building these networks is like one of the only ways
that I can, like, I mean, I'm not doing the
work of building these networks now. I just run a
podcast and read history books also rules, but I don't know,
I mean part knowing these networks exist is part of

(51:13):
literally how I sleep as well as I do as
a trans woman in the current environment, you know. So yeah,
it's like it's like at least you kind of have
a sense that, look, you you have a chance, and
you have people who are like organized and doing something,

(51:33):
and look, yeah, not not everything thing is going to succeed.
Mostly it doesn't success, but yeah, you know it's something. Yeah, yeah,
well that does not actually naturally lead to. But I
want to pivot to talk about the final final part
of this whole thing, which is I bet you're wondering.
I know a lot of people at home are wondering,

(51:55):
what do gay birds have to do with mutual aid?
And and I am an answer for you, because this
is going to be a story that talks about the
origins of mutual aid as a as a term at least,
and it brings us back to Russia, where the land
where the government says there are no gay people. Um,
I don't know whether they say or not there's any

(52:16):
gay birds. But so I can't remember the name of
the magazine, and I'm so annoyed. I spent so long
trying to find this magazine. But I read this magazine
in two thousand four. It was about gay birds and
mutual aid. And I wish I had a time machine
so I'd go back and tell younger me that, like
one day, all of these things that I read that

(52:38):
give me my ideas, I'll actually have to decite them
and source them. I would not have believed you. And
I find this magazine in a trash can, and it's
about science. It's a science magazine I don't remember the
name of it, and as an article, and it's talking
about scientists are finally starting to talk about gay animals
in the early the turn of the millennia, the early

(53:00):
auts and um, and they're trying to figure out what
the funk it means for evolutionary science. So so this
brings us to Darwin, and I promise we'll come back
to the birds. You might have heard of this guy,
this guy named Charles Darwin. H soph he's nodding, so
if he's heard of this guy and um, he's this

(53:23):
rich white British science dude who was like, whoa evolution?
And then more than that, he was like, whoa natural
selection is? What drives evolution? And he wrote a book
about it. And the book is called whoa Natural Selection?
The Origin of the Species or something like that, and
he wrote a direct quotes, Yeah, damn darge. And he
was actually way cooler than most of the people who

(53:45):
came after him, who invoke his name, and way cooler
than I expected him to be when I started researching
this part of the story. Among other things that have
nothing to do with today's story, he he and other
scientists helped intervene on behalf of a French geographer, Ali Raclu,
who fought the Paris Commune and was like going to
be executed for trying to overthrow France basically, and all
these scientists were like, no, you can't execute him. He's

(54:07):
our guy, he's like a scientist. Darwin was also an abolitionist. Um.
He pushed back against race science that invoked his name,
and he argued against any kind of like social planning
that led to eugenics um and he believed that people
needed to be free to reproduce as they wanted, which
is again since most eugenics is sort of based in
calling itself darwinistic. I feel like it's a big deal,

(54:28):
and specifically it's kind of interesting to me because he
didn't deny this like concept of like, I guess you
could change how humans work by selective breeding. But what
he says is, and this is a paraphrase, not a quote, Okay,
some traits are genetic, but if you control who reproduces,
you will get rid of the single best trait in humanity,
which is our capacity for empathy. And so he's just like, no,

(54:50):
I would never work. And I kind of like that.
That's like a science approach to being like you can't
do this racist thing because of this like science, you
know well, but also too, it's like because that isn't
how it works. It's like you need variance and randomness
and like trying to direct it is not going to work. Yeah,
it's just wrong on some fucking levels. Uh, what wasn't wrong?

(55:13):
Where his iconic mutton shops, which later became an epic
wizard beard. That almost makes me sad. I got laser
hair removal. It's such a good bed. I don't know why.
It's everyone has wizard beards back in the day, but
Darwin is particularly good. Now that I don't hate him,
I kind of always assumed he was. I don't know.
I mean I think, like all learned people of the time,

(55:35):
you're still grating on a curve. It's true. He um, yeah,
I'm gonna get to some of that. Um sorry, no, no, okay.
So he was like, whoa, look how species differentiate, and
other people were like, yes, this justifies imperialism and the
abuse of the poor. The strong survived the meek parish
and he had to like waste his time being like,

(55:55):
maybe you shouldn't base policy on what made one animal
into another animal. Yeah, And he does spend a while
trying to figure out colonialism is comparable to evolutionary natural selection.
And he also believes that men naturally dominate over women
because of genetics or whatever. Um yeah, well, I mean
I think it's like just so hard to like any scientists.

(56:18):
It's like I think as humans clearly were like wired
to believe like it's if it happens, yeah, it's good. Yeah, totally.
It's like, yeah, it definitely happens. But like one of
the trademarks of being human is realizing that things that
happen aren't good just because they happen totally. Yeah, it's

(56:39):
like wild, like yes, yes, absolutely, you know, survival of
the fittest occurs, but is it good? Yeah, and there
are other options and that's what other scientists. But first
I'm to talk about scientists who took it the wrong way.
So oh, and that's the final note about Darwin total

(57:00):
aience nerd uh. The year before he dies, he's like
seventy something and which in the nineteenth century means you're
kicking as because the life expectancy is forty for men
in England at the time that he's alive. Um, there's
almost doubled that. And the year before he dies he
publishes his last work. And his last work is called
The Formation of Vegetable Mole through the Action of Worms,
and I just, yeah, I love it. He's a science guy.

(57:23):
He never stopped. Um. And so there's two ways you
can take all of the stuff he says. And there's
the reasonable way and the way that doesn't make any
fucking sense. And the guy who took it the most
the way it doesn't make any fucking sense, is best
exemplified at least by this guy named Herbert Spencer. There's
another white British dude. He also has iconic mutton shops.
Herbert Spencer should have been cool. His parents were Quakers,

(57:47):
he grew up anti authoritarian and socialist and militantly feminist.
As someone who is all of those things, I like that. Um.
Then he took a turn to the hard right libertarian thing,
and he started opposing women's suffering and saying that all
socialism is slavery and that at sure is good that
all the inferior races are being wiped off the face
of the earth. And he spent time complaining about race

(58:08):
mixing deluding the white race. He doesn't sound anything like
people who are around today. He's the one who coined
the term survival of the fittest, and he laid the
philosophical groundwork for what later became right wing libertarianism and
the economics of I've got Mine, Fuck you. Um, survival
fit is truly is yeah, like just a tiny sliver

(58:30):
of the theory is like yeah, no exactly. And for
some odd reason, this guy died alone and lonely. I'm
not it's hard to imagine why. Um. He also might
have invented the paper clip. There's a lot of people
who claim to have invented the paper clip. He is
a month. So that's like the social Darwinism side, all

(58:55):
about competition. The thing is, although that Darwin didn't only
write about competition. He also wrote about co operation. And
this brings me back to the gay animals, because all
these Darwinists, they're not the social Darmans particularly a problem.
If every animal is just trying to fucking pass on
their genes as widely as possible, then why are some
of them gay? Which for a long time people just
ignored the fact that dogs are animals were gay. But

(59:15):
have you met a dog like, I don't know. I
only have one dog, and my dog is gay as fuck.
My dog gay as fuck. Yeah, I'm pretty sure my
dog's pan, but I haven't like proven this, partly because
I am removed his capacity to yeah. Yeah. But so

(59:37):
some animals are gay. Uh. For a while in the
twentie century, reactionaries used to be like, gayness isn't natural.
If it was natural, then animals would be gay, and
there's no gay animals. And then finally someone was like, yeah,
there's so many gay animals, and so now reactionaries instead
have to be like, we are better than those gay animals.
That's what makes us human, you know. Um. And but

(59:59):
then around the beginning century, basically people were like, okay,
we have to address the fact that animals are gay.
And people were like, but why how does this work
with if all we believe is survival of the fittest?
And the answer is something that evolutionary biologs just have
been talking about for a hundred god damn fucking years,
And basically they realized a couple of things hundred goddamn

(01:00:22):
years ago. One, sometimes animals do things just because things
are fun. Um, we're not actually robots, Animals try to
aren't just trying to maximize the reproduction or whatever. Birds
fly around and flocks because like, holy sh it, we
can fucking fly the rules, you know, and fucking is
also fun unless you're unlucky enough to be like sucking
a right wing dude who buys into the Ben Shapiro thing,

(01:00:43):
which case you're not necessarily having a good time all
of them, or you know, have other drama that whatever. Anyway, anyway,
but also, gay animals are good for community, and this
is the main thing that was in this article that
I read that like have I had my mind explode
moment or whatever about this um. Gay animals foster kids,

(01:01:04):
and they also allow for relationships like within the animal
communities that aren't just like one boy ostrich one and
making this animal up for an example, and one girl
ostrich or whatever. As you have a greater capacity for
love within the community, and it turns out that that
makes everyone happier, live longer, and everything is good. So

(01:01:25):
this is a confirmation of this fight that had been
going on a hundred years ago competition versus cooperation, which
wasn't actually competition versus cooperation. It was one side saying
competition is the only thing that happens, and the other
side saying it's both. It's always been both, it will
always be both. Yeah. Well, that's also like cooperation is.

(01:01:47):
Typically it's cooperation within a sphere that helps a larger
group possibly compete with you know, different groups or societies
or whatever. Yeah. The champion of this other school of
evolutionary biology was not other than a friend of the podcast,
Peter Kropotkin, who was this Russian prince. He's another rich

(01:02:09):
white guy, let's be honest, and he renounces his royalty
to declare war on Czarist Russia and all states. Uh.
He dedicates his life to the twin goals of science
and anarchism. He breaks out of the most impossible to
break out of prison in Russia in the nineteenth century
to circumnavigate the world to foster revolution of let's take
care of each other like I watched some animals do
while I was a biologist. And so he's the anti Spencer,

(01:02:31):
the survival of the fittest guy, and he writes a
book about it, and his book about it is called
mutual Aid, A Factor and Revolution. Because he's also a
very literal title guy and this is where the phrase
mutual aid in the modern context comes from. Is this
book mutual aid? As far as I can tell, Um,
I don't believe this is this is absolutely not the

(01:02:51):
origin of the idea of mutual aid. In fact, since
Kropotkin is a scientist, it's like he's like, no, I've
observed this, this exists, um, but I don't know. And
then he got into all these like arguments about it
at the time. But basically people like sort of forgot
about all of these arguments, and it was all of
the Russian scientists all not just the leftists, were like no, no, no,

(01:03:11):
it's cooperation, it's both you know. Um, but the sort
of further West idea kind of one over for a
long time. Yeah, it's so yeah, so id I mean,
I I learned most of the bog biological side of
this from now right wing lunatic Richard Dawkins's books. Um,
but his like books on you know, on genetics, correct, Okay,

(01:03:37):
it's his ideas of how to apply them to women
Muslims that, yeah, which Darwin would have had a fucking
fist fight with him over. Yeah. Well, I think I mean, look,
this might be just me liking an older thing. But
I would have thought that the older version of Richard

(01:03:57):
or the younger version of Richard Dawkins would also feel
the same way. But truly, what do I know? Yeah,
we we can reckon it either way and just declare
that young Richard Dawkins would absolutely fistfight, would be the
champion four Darwin in the fight to death. Maybe even
as you say it out loud, that sounds crazy, all right.

(01:04:18):
My idea about the younger Richard Duckin sounds you know,
just not the fighting part, the being a good person part. Yeah, yeah, okay,
who knows, Well, that's that's kind of So that's like
the phenomenon, right, they went observed this phenomenon, and it's
a phenomenon that food not bombs, and literally countless other

(01:04:40):
individuals and organizations such as Solidarity and Snacks not Solidarity
not Snacks, which was the precursor or popular Um, has
been using this phenomenon all over the world and it
is a phenomenon that rules. And that is my my
story of food not bombs and mutual aid. That's oh
my god, thank you for having it for this has

(01:05:01):
been like lovely and educational, but also I think like
it is. It is this like double edge thing of
like the history is interesting, but one of the important
parts of the I think the rules you talked about
last week is like the most important part is like
you know, yeah, but also these these people weren't gods

(01:05:21):
that founded this thing. You know, It's like they made mistakes. Um,
and it's fine, but the basic bedrock is fine and
usable and adjustable. Yeah, totally. Yeah, but again, careful when
you're serving that meat because it's a real pain in
the g s on the streets. Totally. Andrew, do you

(01:05:42):
have any thing you'd like to plug at the end
here for us? Oh? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, well yeah,
if you've enjoyed listening to me talk, Um, I'm going
to be on tour with a couple more dates, not
really tours or a mini tour with my podcasts This
Racist I co hosted with Tony News So um, we're
going to be in Austin on August and Brooklyn on

(01:06:04):
September time. So possibly the single least profitable way to
put together a tour humanly possible, but it's fun and
it's you know, just a nice chance to see everyone. Awesome,
And Margaret, you have a book coming out, correct I do.
It's called we Won't Be Here Tomorrow, and I didn't

(01:06:25):
have a pun prepared about the fact that the title
reference okay anyway, And you can get it from a
k Press or you can get it from different independent
bookstores and if you preorder it, you get an art
print and it comes out September twenty and it's full
of all of my short stories about uh, I don't know.
There's like a trans woman who feeds men too. She
robs men and then feeds them to her mermaid lover

(01:06:47):
and then it's like, you know, a whole parable imagine that.
And there's another one about someone who uses drones to
troll CEOs into quitting. And there's another one about the
dead from Valhalla back and fight in the civil war
against Nazis because there's no Nazis in Valhalla. Um, if
you like that kind of thing, yeah, I know, it's

(01:07:08):
kind of a it's a little bit of Apama, you know.
Uh So you can you can buy that and also
you can, um listen to my podcasts. I have a
podcast called Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff, which is
on cool Zone Media and you can't do it every
Monday and Wednesday, I have another podcast called Lived Like
the World is Dying and it is about individual and

(01:07:29):
community preparedness and you can listen to it also on
wherever you find podcasts. Um, but Sophie's not on it,
so it's not and we all be sad about that
for a moment, a moment of silence. Where can people
find you on the Internet? Uh? You can? You can?
You can. You can find me on Twitter and Instagram.

(01:07:50):
You can just search my name, I pop up, uh,
and then you can follow out cool Zone Media also
on Twitter and Instagram. And if you look on the
Internet archive, you can find Sophie Lichtman's my Space page.
Please don't put, please put, please don't, please don't. It's
really it's really not not it baby. If you can

(01:08:11):
find my profile, find my space, don't find mine. I'm
gonna tell you the name of the band I was
in in two thousand five as on my Space. It's terrible.
Oh my gosh. Yeah, So everyone get researching you have
a vague sense of your assignment. Yeah yeah, And we'll
be back on Monday with another story of cool people

(01:08:33):
who did Cool Stuff. Yeah. By Cool People who Did
Cool Stuff is a production of cool zone Media or
more podcasts on cool zone Media, Visit our website cool
zone media dot com, or check us out on the
I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
your podcasts.